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Author Topic: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200920  (Read 344439 times)

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200716
« Reply #1540 on: July 19, 2020, 03:28:39 pm »
That's a common misconception about Mode 7. And, well, it doesn't really work how I expect you think it does. This will be a little technical but I'll try my best at explaining.

The SNES has 8 background modes (abbreviated to BG mode or just mode from here on), numbered 0 through 7. So you can't "turn off" mode 7, you pick a different BG mode.

Mode 7 is the only BG mode that provides a background that can be rotated and scaled.

The top-down Flammie view makes use of the scaling to ascend (scale down / zoom out) or descend (scale up / zoom in) and rotates the background to represent turning so that Flammie can always face top-of-screen or bottom-of-screen.

The fake 3D projection lots of SNES games do makes use of rotating and clever use of scaling: it's rotated to face the desired direction, then every scanline the scale is changed to "zoom in" so that the top of the fake 3D projection is not stretched and looks far away, and the bottom is highly stretched (zoomed in) and looks close.

If you used a different BG mode for Flammie flight, north would always be up on the screen, and you couldn't zoom in or out. Turning would turn Flammie rather than the background (if the controls were unchanged). You'd also need art to represent Flammie facing different directions since there's no sprite rotation with baseline SNES. Some of the SoM bosses that do shrink / grow (e.g. the slimes) or rotate do so because those fights use mode 7 and put the boss's art on the mode 7 background layer so they can be scaled and rotated.

There's an additional wrinkle in that graphical data for the mode 7 background is a different format than the other 7 modes, so you can't just flip between them and use the same graphics: sprites and mode 0-6 backgrounds require one format, mode 7 background requires another. So there's no easy way to even try it out, all the world map tile art would need to be processed into the format needed for mode 0-6.

The globe map (also mode 7) and flat map (mode 3), don't even use the world map tile art, they have a palette that represents each tile as a single color, and use that palette to construct their respective tiles at run time.

Normal gameplay uses BG mode 1. The menu screens use BG mode... uh, 5 maybe? I'm not 100% sure on that.

You can approximate non-mode 7 flight by facing exactly north (you're facing exactly north when you first summon Flammie), and being at a height where tile pixels match screen pixels in size (not sure what height that'd be).

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200716
« Reply #1541 on: July 19, 2020, 05:24:16 pm »
Interesting.  I more or less knew about how mode 7 made things look the way they are, but was not aware of how the background modes were implemented.

I must have misunderstood this from how it was implemented in Illusion of Gaia.  In game, it used the technique you describe, but the actual map looks like this:



That led me to believe that it was something that was "turned on" and off as stated.

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200723
« Reply #1542 on: July 19, 2020, 05:51:52 pm »
I think the equivalent for SoM would be:

(Click to enlarge, notice how freaking huge that is at 4096x4096 pixels.)
https://www.snesmaps.com/maps/SecretOfMana/000bSecretOfManaOverworldMap.html

SoM's world is 512x512 tiles (each tile is 8x8 pixels). It can't hold the whole map in memory at once: the mode 7 background is 128x128 tiles. So it constantly loads new tilemap data from the ROM as you move.

The globe map and flat map each represent each tile with 1 color, with the flat map (basically) being 256x256, so every 2x2 tile square then gets averaged for the color to show (this averaging process is largely why the flat map loads so damn slowly).



Long tine lurker here. I finally got around to trying this patch and its fantastic. Thanks so much for the work you've done. The .zps format makes for a really intuitive way to add/remove mods, effectively making this the definitive SoM romhack.

A little off-topic but has there been any talk of doing something similar for SoM sister-game Secret of Evermore? It would be great to see some quality of life mods for reducing weapon/magic level grinding, removing stamina countdown, streamlining charge attacks, etc. as seen here in SoM Turbo but without adding unnecessary increased difficulty as seen in the SoE Improvements patch.

Sorry for the delayed response, your post was held up in moderation so I only just recently noticed it.

At the very least, I have no interest in doing as much for Secret of Evermore. While Trials of Mana has been brought up quite a few times in this absurdly long thread, I don't recall Secret of Evermore being brought up to any memorable degree.



Version 2020-07-23:
https://filebin.net/7spaiz2xfys6b2i1/SoM_Turbo.200723.zip

Changes:
- Added hmsong's Combat\Strong_And_Weak_Attacks\Alternate_Attack_Set
- Added some coastline and sunken continent tile fixes to Enhanced_World_Map

Technical Changes:
- Some virtual file hierarchy restructuring to support Alternate_Attack_Set
« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 07:42:30 pm by Queue »

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200723
« Reply #1543 on: July 28, 2020, 02:25:53 am »

kethinov

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200723
« Reply #1544 on: July 28, 2020, 08:32:49 am »
OMG, Christmas came early! I didn't even know you were working on command line support, or testing in Mono!

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200729
« Reply #1545 on: July 29, 2020, 03:49:10 pm »
Version 2020-07-29:
https://filebin.net/7spaiz2xfys6b2i1/SoM_Turbo.200729.zip

Changes:
- Added audio feedback to Text\Abortable_Dialog so you can tell if a text box closed early



kethinov, was hoping you'd see that screenshot. I hope it'll be ready to release next week, but no promises. Also whoops, accidentally included a Patcher_Linux.txt file in the readmes\_extras folder that isn't relevant yet. It requires, I think, mono-complete and mono-vbnc; not sure if there's a lesser variant than mono-complete that'd still work and I may or may not get to testing to figure that out. I'm also not sure if it works in a text-mode-only or headless setup; while I'm preempting window drawing to jam in command line parsing, and trying not to load anything window related if //nogui is specified, I'm not positive it never hits a class with a dependency on them (or if that actually matters). But at the very least it allows automation (and on Windows, drag&drop and file association) and is working in my Linux test environment (Ubuntu 16.04). And worth noting, the GUI does work on Linux (+ Mono, obviously) as well. It may mean OSX + Mono works as well, but who knows; I'm not testing that, already frustrated enough with Linux (possibly actually Mono doing what's been frustrating, but I don't know that either).

kethinov

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200729
« Reply #1546 on: July 29, 2020, 05:34:02 pm »
I'd certainly be happy to kick the tires for you on both Linux and Mac to see what the limits are. When you have a release ready, I'll start by making a handful of reference builds with different settings with the Windows GUI, then see if I can reproduce identical ROMs using the command line variant on both Linux and Mac and report back if there are any discrepancies.

Pornchai

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200729
« Reply #1547 on: August 05, 2020, 07:41:30 pm »
Will there be any other updates to the mechanics for this rom? I've been waiting until it's somewhat complete before me and my wife play this.

Also, is there a way to add additional levels to the game? I've seen secret of mana editors.

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200729
« Reply #1548 on: August 06, 2020, 02:12:22 am »
Will there be any other updates to the mechanics for this rom? I've been waiting until it's somewhat complete before me and my wife play this.

Also, is there a way to add additional levels to the game? I've seen secret of mana editors.

The mechanics for this rom is already complete.  The rest are just "additions" and "perks".  And remember, the editor allows you to CHOOSE which patch you want to apply and which ones you don't want.  I strongly suggest you to take a look at it -- many features, you may want to turn on or off (I turn off Spell Power Tweak, while turning on Spell Balance Overhaul).

Also, what do you mean by "additional levels"?  You mean, like an extra dungeon or something?  I'm certain SoM editor isn't compatible with Turbo though.

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200729
« Reply #1549 on: August 06, 2020, 02:16:31 pm »
I'm currently occupied with:
1) a SoM retranslation effort: https://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php?topic=30792.0
2) major compatibility improvements and commandline support for the ZPS patcher that this project uses
3) repairing collateral damage suffered from a water heater expiring (e.g. warped baseboards)

While I have plans for more stuff for Turbo, it's in a very solid state and you wouldn't be missing out if you just treated the version now as if it was final.

There's only one SoM editor I'm aware of, SoMEdit, by Mop, the same person who later went on to make the SoM Randomizer (formerly known as Ancient Cave, and which is an awesome project). That editor's output can't be used with Turbo, and often is hard to get to work on its own, and there's no major map edits that anyone has done using SoMEdit that have been released that I'm aware of. Turbo isn't compatible with the randomizer either.

The editor and randomizer make too fundamental of changes to the game's code and data to be practical to have Turbo be able to work with them, unfortunately.

lexluthermiester

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200709
« Reply #1550 on: August 07, 2020, 09:24:40 am »
The current status is it's perpetual beta: you could grab a version at any point and enjoy it, but if you came back in 3 months, there'd be a few more features. This doesn't mean it has bugs (it does occasionally, but they get discovered and fixed): I don't subscribe to that definition of beta, it simply means not final.
IMHO, This project is of solid, stable quality that it can be considered a "final" releasable project that has rolling updates for feature improvements and additions. It just seems like it has earned an official project page. Nothing wrong with continuing developments in this thread and updating the project page every 6 months. Just throwing the thought out there.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2020, 08:01:32 am by lexluthermiester »

Pornchai

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200729
« Reply #1551 on: August 07, 2020, 05:50:26 pm »
The mechanics for this rom is already complete.  The rest are just "additions" and "perks".  And remember, the editor allows you to CHOOSE which patch you want to apply and which ones you don't want.  I strongly suggest you to take a look at it -- many features, you may want to turn on or off (I turn off Spell Power Tweak, while turning on Spell Balance Overhaul).

Also, what do you mean by "additional levels"?  You mean, like an extra dungeon or something?  I'm certain SoM editor isn't compatible with Turbo though.

Whats spell power tweak and spell balance overhaul? I just left the default options.

August 08, 2020, 11:26:17 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Put in an hour or so into the game and I find it to be very easy, and I approach every enemy the same way: spam attack and push them into a wall.

I appreciate the edit, but is this how I should expect the entire game to go?
« Last Edit: August 08, 2020, 11:26:17 am by Pornchai »

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200729
« Reply #1552 on: August 10, 2020, 09:18:55 pm »
Version 2020-08-10:
https://filebin.net/7spaiz2xfys6b2i1/SoM_Turbo.200810.zip

Changes:
- Nothing meaningful in the patch itself, this update is all about the ZPS Patcher
- Overhauled ZPS_Helper.bat to take advantage of patcher improvements

Patcher:
- Added commandline support; see ZPS_Patcher.exe /? for details
- Now drag&drop capable in Explorer; drag and drop the ZPS file and/or Secret of Mana ROM onto ZPS_Patcher.exe and it'll open with them selected and loaded
- Now supports ZPS files being associated with ZPS_Patcher.exe
- Fixed file select dialog bugs (e.g. click "SNES ROM" then Cancel)
- Added file select dialog filters
- IPS files added to the "Patch Chain" now save and load from the INI config file
- The "Advanced Options" window now scrolls vertically if too tall for desktop resolution
- The "Advanced Options" window no longer clears out informational entries when clicking Ok
- The "Advanced Options" window edit boxes now autosize to fit the widest entry
- Fixed progress bar components and it now centers on the main patcher window
- Adjustments to the progress bar to add fallback visuals under Mono (for Linux, etc.)
- Rewrote INI config file support to work under Mono (for Linux, etc.)
- Dependency adjustments to improve support for Mono (for Linux, etc.)
- See readmes\_extras\Patcher_Linux.txt for Mono package requirement (mono-vbnc)
- Other minor adjustments



Quote from: Pornchai
Put in an hour or so into the game and I find it to be very easy, and I approach every enemy the same way: spam attack and push them into a wall.

I appreciate the edit, but is this how I should expect the entire game to go?
More-or-less, though that's literally how I play the vanilla game as well. It's just an easy game. Once enemies start casting more spells they put up slightly more of a fight, but there are never more than 3 enemies on screen at once and you can often clump them up and pound on them all at once. The patcher has lots of options to try and let you adjust the difficulty as you see fit, but Secret of Mana's gameplay (with or without Turbo Mode) doesn't really allow for things to be hard, just more-or-less grindy.

miaz

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200810
« Reply #1553 on: August 11, 2020, 11:41:49 am »
Havent been following this very closely, not to spol the game (dont remember that much from when i played it as a kid it turns out), but im very much looking forward to it!

Do you have any idea of when it might be done? Maybe never (theres always something)?
How playable is it currently?
Wont have proper time to play until winter, but still.

Anyways, keep up the good work, and again, im really looking forward to this.

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200810
« Reply #1554 on: August 11, 2020, 07:58:15 pm »
Some patch notes from the last release I overlooked (there were a lot of changes to the patcher, so it was easy to miss some when documenting them):

Patcher:
- Updated descriptive executable info (internal version number 1.0.0.0 -> 0.18.4.0, author listing, etc.)
- Changed entrypoint to facilitate commandline support
- Some messageboxes now close automatically after a timed delay (e.g. 2 seconds)
- Changed IPS patcher to default to headerless instead of always prompting
- Progress bar no longer has taskbar icon
- Executable changed from windowed to console (console is hidden if GUI shown)
- Notable behavior difference between commandline and GUI mode: output ROM defaults to input ROM file location in GUI mode, and input ZPS file location in commandline mode



Quote from: miaz
Do you have any idea of when it might be done? Maybe never (theres always something)?
How playable is it currently?
It is 100% playable. It may never be "done" but it's been at a state where any normal human would consider it done for at least the entirety of 2020 (so for 8 months). I've fixed any significant bugs in the vanilla game (AFAIK), the core mechanics changes I wanted to implement have been done for probably over a year, and anything left to do I consider fluff / moon shots.

mkwong98

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200810
« Reply #1555 on: August 12, 2020, 06:47:01 am »
What do you use to compress and decompress the graphics in this game?

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200810
« Reply #1556 on: August 12, 2020, 05:22:42 pm »
The only graphics that are truly compressed, as far as I recall, is the title screen background.
If I recall correctly, it's jpeg data without header.

The rest is either 1-bit (e.g. font), 2-bit (e.g. HUD, text boxes, menus), 3-bit (e.g. weapon sprites, menu icons, item icons) or 4-bit (e.g. environment, player/enemy sprites, flammie). World map art is 4-bit but formatted for mode 7 use.

In Tile Layer Pro, these correspond to the View\Format options of:
1b = 1BPP
2b = Game Boy
3b = SNES 3BPP
4b = SNES
map= GBA


The 3-bit data is in an unusual byte order, but I have features in the Turbo patcher (Graphics\Decode_Menu_Icons and Graphics\Decode_Combat_Art) that rearrange the bytes into a more typical 3-bit encoding.

Dakitty

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200810
« Reply #1557 on: August 13, 2020, 01:25:32 pm »
Do you have a list of your moon shots? I dunno about everyone else, but I would LOVE to see the whole shade/sage mountain and moon palace revamped into something... well, not suck.

mkwong98

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200810
« Reply #1558 on: August 14, 2020, 01:38:15 am »
Thanks!

I'm wondering if it is possible to update some of the graphics with SD3 graphics.

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200818
« Reply #1559 on: August 18, 2020, 05:04:03 pm »
Version 2020-08-18:
https://filebin.net/7spaiz2xfys6b2i1/SoM_Turbo.200818.zip

Changes:
- Just another ZPS_Patcher-only update (without version number change, sorry, won't do that again)
- Added readmes\_extras\Patcher_Edits.v4.7z which includes diff-able files for all changes between zhaDe's original ZPS Patcher (0.18) and this 200818 version (0.18.4.e)

Patcher:
- Fixed resource leak when closing Advanced Options window that could softlock the patching process (messageboxes couldn't show, such as the one that occurs when patching has finished)
- Sped up the ZPS COPY directive when copying large amounts of data
- Further improved the patching progress bar's rendering and Mono compatibility
- Synchronized window resize-ability between .NET and Mono



Quote from: Dakitty
Do you have a list of your moon shots? I dunno about everyone else, but I would LOVE to see the whole shade/sage mountain and moon palace revamped into something... well, not suck.

I do have a list, but it will never be public. While I've succeeded at quite a few of what I feared wouldn't be possible (or would be too much work), I don't want anyone getting excited over something that will never be, or worse, bugging me about working on one of them.

All of my SoM time at the moment is going towards ManaRedux's retranslation effort. These patcher updates have themselves been a moon shot (I don't have source code for it, so it's been a fairly involved effort to make changes to it that I've thankfully had help with), and have been to enhance the retranslation effort: I need to constantly repatch the ROM when testing, and the added commandline support made that process faster and more reliable.

Quote from: mkwong98
I'm wondering if it is possible to update some of the graphics with SD3 graphics.
You're wondering that in general? If so, probably, it should be possible to adjust palettes and replace some art assets. The constraints on the art (bit depth, available palette entries) should be similar.

If you're wondering if I would do that, then no, that doesn't interest me. I think Trials of Mana is beautiful, its art is one of its strong points, but it also is very different from Secret of Mana's style and likely wouldn't look good in contrast to what isn't replaced.