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Author Topic: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200920  (Read 345352 times)

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200603
« Reply #1480 on: June 04, 2020, 01:57:01 am »
@Queue

Oh crap.  I messed up.  Dragon Ring element is supposed to turn on if Equipment Tweak is OFF, not ON.  The description is correct, but I messed it up for the code (it was supposed to be IFNOT, not IF).  Whoops.  Could you please correct that?  Thanks.



@Mr X

The thing is, my main concern for Elemental Equipments is to tweak the elements, not the stats.  Although I can mess around with stats in Equipment Tweaks, that was mostly for giving the missing SEs to the equipments and giving "personal" final equipments in the Mana Fortress.  And I have a vague feeling that messing with the stats would just end up making things worse.

How would it make things worse?
« Last Edit: June 04, 2020, 02:42:52 am by Mr X »

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200603
« Reply #1481 on: June 04, 2020, 02:46:26 am »
@Mr X

Isn't that because you're already familiar with SoM?  The first time I played (20+ years ago), I thought the Sunken Continent had good balance (I didn't know anything about the enemy dropped armor though).  And I definitely struggled a lot in Pure Land.  And that was after upgrading all the armor from Neko (back then, I didn't know about the dropped equip nor SE protection).

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200603
« Reply #1482 on: June 04, 2020, 03:07:10 am »
@Mr X

Isn't that because you're already familiar with SoM?  The first time I played (20+ years ago), I thought the Sunken Continent had good balance (I didn't know anything about the enemy dropped armor though).  And I definitely struggled a lot in Pure Land.  And that was after upgrading all the armor from Neko (back then, I didn't know about the dropped equip nor SE protection).

Pretty sure everyone that plays a SoM hack is familiar with the game one way or the other. I am not talking about vanilla experience. It's minority that would play Turbo as a first time, or any SoM hack for that matter. Everyone else has some experience with the original game and attempt to play hacks of it.

Lyrin

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200603
« Reply #1483 on: June 06, 2020, 11:02:31 pm »
Pretty sure everyone that plays a SoM hack is familiar with the game one way or the other. I am not talking about vanilla experience. It's minority that would play Turbo as a first time, or any SoM hack for that matter. Everyone else has some experience with the original game and attempt to play hacks of it.
I played vanilla for about an hour (several times) before giving up. Switching to this made the game more enjoyable. Not completely blind but pretty close.

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200603
« Reply #1484 on: June 07, 2020, 12:12:14 pm »
I think the Guardian Ring might be too OP to cast it freely with no penalty and MP cost. Don't need any other of the Sprites spell really when they all cost MP, just put up the Guardian Ring. Maybe increase the Magic Charge time when having this ring on?

I enjoyed the new update overall with armors offering something different, I would probably add elemental affinities to all dropable equipment, except those that protect you against more than one status effect.

Also the Rising Sun was indeed OP. But being the only weapon that inflicts engulf and weak power for endgame it might be more balanced. But it's reallt useful for the Ice Continent. Loved other weapons also inflicting Mired instead the Steel Lance proved also useful for Witch Castle and Underground Temple, wherr you will lack magic at that point of the game that's a solid alternative.

Looking forward the other Weapon improvements in the future, especially those spell based.

Stat based weapons should probably just provide a bigger stat boost at the expense of the base attack, they would automatically become better that way imo, so it becomes more noticeable the stats they boost. Like the agility weapons think of them as a light weapon, so less attack but more agile, Strength Weapons being more heavy hitting but less Agile etc.

I played vanilla for about an hour (several times) before giving up. Switching to this made the game more enjoyable. Not completely blind but pretty close.

I think it would be fair enough if there is a list of enemy drops.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2020, 03:12:10 pm by Mr X »

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200603
« Reply #1485 on: June 08, 2020, 12:44:13 am »
@Mr X

I intend on decreasing the DEF (but not M.DEF) of Guardian Ring for the next Equipment Tweak update, if Equipment Element is ON.  I'm also gonna make it so that Eggplant Man doesn't drop Watcher's Ring (I'll give that to someone else), and Dark Knight doesn't drop Gauntlet.  I just haven't gotten to that yet.  I will.

I wouldn't be able to give element to all equipments, because of how it would make certain combinations absurd.

Soul Knight

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200603
« Reply #1486 on: June 08, 2020, 01:22:26 am »
Hey Queue.  First, thanks for making this hack.  I'm had a lot of fun with this.  I especially like how you gave the toggle option.  Some questions though.  Why did you give defense boost to the saber magic?  Under Saber Matches Element hack, you made it so that enemies get defense boost when their element matches their saber.  Why defense, and not offense?  I feel like offense would make more sense.  Could you change it, so the saber element would boost offense instead? (or just make another hack so that saber boosts offense?)  Thanks.

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200603
« Reply #1487 on: June 08, 2020, 01:56:04 am »
Well if you have the unique equipment on even with those equipment you wont be too op. The main issue is still the enemies being unbalanced.

For example I got Ninja's Glove and Gauntlets pre Aegagroplon fight. That fight was still tough even with those equipments when you have unique equipment on.

But Lime Slime, Blue Spike, weren't able to do anything to me, but the Gorgon Bull was able to damage me. The mobs of Golden Tower and Dark Palace are still extremely weak.

Then in Grand Palace you have access to: Cockratice Helm, Amulet Helm, Resist Ring, Watchers Ring, Gauntlets are still dropped by the Metal Crawlers, Ninja's Glove. You  become too OP for the bosses of the Grand Palace with them and mobs also being too weak to do anything to you, except Turtlance if they ever cast Herbal Boost which I still haven't seen one cast?

Hence why I suggested takimg a look about moving enemies around, then the only issue that would remain are the bosses.

Also I would probably decrease the defense of Gauntlet and Ninja Gloves but increse the stat they boost to make it more noticable. Have Gauntlet boosting more Strength but provide less physical def, same for Ninja Gloves more Agility but less Physical def (or maybe magic def with this one).

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200603
« Reply #1488 on: June 08, 2020, 02:00:55 am »
@Mr X

I feel like what you would want is kethinov's Equipment Balance patch.  I think he did all that (and then some).

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200603
« Reply #1489 on: June 09, 2020, 07:58:43 am »
Hey Queue.  First, thanks for making this hack.  I'm had a lot of fun with this.  I especially like how you gave the toggle option.  Some questions though.  Why did you give defense boost to the saber magic?  Under Saber Matches Element hack, you made it so that enemies get defense boost when their element matches their saber.  Why defense, and not offense?  I feel like offense would make more sense.  Could you change it, so the saber element would boost offense instead? (or just make another hack so that saber boosts offense?)  Thanks.

You asked Queue, but will share my opinion on it. It does boost their offense too, example Wolf Lords, Master Ninja's, Terminators go from barely doing any if at all samage physically (if you have proper equipment), to doing roughly about 200 damage when using a saber. But can't say how it works for the rest of the enemies in other areas, the Petit Poseidon when using Ice Saber still wasn't doing any damage to me, so it probably the enemy scaling at fault the original game has.

It makes sense for both cases tbh for both defense and offense.

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200603
« Reply #1490 on: June 09, 2020, 07:02:54 pm »
@Queue

Okay, here's the Equipment Tweak update:

Quote
Equipment_Tweaks "(Patch)\n
Author: hmsong\n
Version: 0.2\n
\n
Alters the following equipment:\n
- Cockatrice Cap   142 magic defense\n
- Amulet Helm   sprite only, Faerie Crown stats\n
- Faerie Crown   girl only\n
- Vampire Cape   sprite only, Faerie Cloak stats\n
- Faerie Cloak   girl only\n
- Wolf's Band   added confuse immunity\n
- Shield Ring   added +5 constitution\n
- Guardian Ring   lowered DEF to 0 (if Elemental_Equipment is ON)\n
- Guardian Ring   added engulf immunity\n
- Ninja Gloves   added balloon immunity\n
- Dragon Ring   added confuse and paralyze immunity\n
- Watcher Ring   added pygmy immunity\n
- Amulet Ring   added poison and sleep immunity\n
\n
Alters the following enemy item drops:\n
- Dark Knight   Drops      Chocolate, Magical Armor\n
- Eggplant Man   Rare Drop   Faerie Walnut\n
- Heck Hound   Rare Drop   Dragon Ring\n
- Ice Thug      Rare Drop   Watcher Ring\n
- National Scar   Rare Drop   Vestguard\n
- Metal Crab   Common Drop   Amulet Helm\n
\n
Repositions the following enemies:\n
- Eggplant Man   Ancient City   Repositioned to make it harder to encounter"

Code: [Select]
@OFF $C89D0A '[???: Ancient City Train] (Eggplant Man)
RAW 08 ' (reposition) xpos-

@OFF $D03AA9 '[Ice Thug] Rare Drop
RAW 3B ' Dragon Ring --> Watcher Ring
@OFF $D03B84 '[Metal Crab] Common Drop
RAW 12 ' Vestguard --> Amulet Helm
@OFF $D03B94 '[Eggplant Man] Rare Drop
RAW 43 ' Watcher Ring --> Faerie Walnut
@OFF $D03BC6 '[Heck Hound] Rare Drop
RAW 3A ' Faerie Walnut --> Dragon Ring
@OFF $D03BD0 '[National Scar] Rare Drop
RAW 26 ' Amulet Helm --> Vestguard
IFNOT Stardust_Herb ' compat
@OFF $D03BD9 '[Dark Knight] Drops
RAW 41 22 ' Chocolate, Magical Armor
ENDIF

@OFF $D03F7D 'Cockatrice Cap M-Def
RAW 8E
@OFF $D03F85 'Amulet Helm Stat
RAW 96 17 96
@OFF $D03F89 'Amulet Helm - Popoi Only
RAW 20 ' Popoi Only
@OFF $D03F9D 'Faerie Crown
RAW 40 ' Primm Only

@OFF $D04056 'Vampire Cape Stat
RAW 44 FA 25 64
@OFF $D0405B 'Vampire Cape
RAW 20 ' Popoi Only
@OFF $D0406F 'Faerie Cloak
RAW 40 ' Primm Only

@OFF $D040AD 'Wolf's Band
RAW 80 00 ' Nothing --> +Confuse
@OFF $D040E2 'Shield Ring
RAW 44 ' Nothing --> +Constitution +5
IF Elemental_Equipment ' compat
@OFF $D040F7 'Guardian Ring Def
RAW 00
ENDIF
@OFF $D040FD 'Guardian Ring
RAW 00 40 ' Nothing --> +Engulf
@OFF $D04111 'Ninja Gloves
RAW 04 01 ' +Slow --> +Slow, +Balloon
@OFF $D0411B 'Dragon Ring
RAW 88 00 ' Nothing --> +Mire, +Confuse
@OFF $D04125 'Watcher Ring
RAW 00 12 ' +Moogle --> +Pygmy, +Moogle
@OFF $D04139 'Amulet Ring
RAW 50 20 ' +Petrify --> +Sleep, +Petrify, +Poison

I specifically did this, so that it's near impossible to get any near-final-equipment before Sunken Continent.  I also made it so that Eggplant Man (and Needlion) is harder to farm in the Ancient City.  On the other hand, I've made it easier for people to get the 3rd ring from the Grand Palace (for Unique Equipment people).

Note that Dragon Ring's dual-element protection will not work if Elemental_Equipment and Equipment_Tweaks are both ON.

I'd sure like some feedback.  From everyone.



Hey Queue.  First, thanks for making this hack.  I'm had a lot of fun with this.  I especially like how you gave the toggle option.  Some questions though.  Why did you give defense boost to the saber magic?  Under Saber Matches Element hack, you made it so that enemies get defense boost when their element matches their saber.  Why defense, and not offense?  I feel like offense would make more sense.  Could you change it, so the saber element would boost offense instead? (or just make another hack so that saber boosts offense?)  Thanks.

Oh, for some reason, I missed your post.  I must be going senile.

I'll answer your initial question, since it was I who asked Queue to make it that way.  In vanilla, when a monster's saber matches its element, then it gets a DEF boost (you can check with Shellblast).  Don't ask me why -- I don't know.  So I asked Queue to make the logic the same.

But you raised a fair point.  Saber's element matching the attack does seem a bit more "make sense".

I don't know if this will work with the new Elemental Equipment for players though.  If it does, then great (haven't really tested with DEF).  Although all saber magic does get slight ATK boost, this will be another boost to the saber magic (offense magic is too powerful in this game, so powering up saber magic makes sense).  Having said that, in the event Queue makes a hack that gives saber give attack boost to those who match element, then I wouldn't want both offense and defense boost to the saber magic.  Only one or the other (so if DEF boost is ON, ATK boost won't register -- priority goes to DEF, since that was the vanilla logic).

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200603
« Reply #1491 on: June 10, 2020, 01:49:24 am »
Saber element match boost def
Saber element already boosts atk slightly no need for matching element (unless matchint element boosts atk further)

Saber element of the opposite element boost def against that element (for example an enemy weak to Lumina using light saber boosts def against Lumina spells)

Sabers boosting spell power of a spirit - like Ice Saber boosts Undine spells for example (I remember similarly was done in SD3 hack, sin of mana and it makes a lot of sense).

All these options make sense to me, not gonna disregard any of them.

As for your equipment tweaks I will reply later on that hmsong
« Last Edit: June 10, 2020, 02:54:01 am by Mr X »

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200612
« Reply #1492 on: June 12, 2020, 02:48:55 pm »
Version 2020-06-12:
https://filebin.net/7spaiz2xfys6b2i1/SoM_Turbo.200612.zip

Changes:
- Updated hmsong's Equipment_Tweaks to version 0.2
- Fixed Elemental_Equipment / Equipment_Tweaks Dragon Ring compatibility
- Further tweaked Burst_-_Health_Cost: now a Dryad element piece of equipment will only halve player self-damage instead of reducing it all the way to 0



Not terribly much to this update, will post replies later when I get the chance.

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200612
« Reply #1493 on: June 12, 2020, 04:47:42 pm »
- Further tweaked Burst_-_Health_Cost: now a Dryad element piece of equipment will only halve player self-damage instead of reducing it all the way to 0

That's a great idea.  Much better than being immune to that effect.  But now, I don't need to reduce Guardian Ring's DEF to 0.  Could you please fix/erase the DEF 0 change? (and the description)  Thanks.

Edit:  Wait wait.  It seems that doing such damages Dryad element enemies as well.  Meaning, Aegagropilon will chain his magic, which in turn will kill himself.  This is esp true when you turn on [Spells Pause Gameplay].  Is there a way you can make it so that enemies are immune, but you still take half the damage?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2020, 04:24:54 am by hmsong »

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200612
« Reply #1494 on: June 13, 2020, 02:34:25 pm »
Quote from: hmsong
It seems that doing such damages Dryad element enemies as well.
Is there a way you can make it so that enemies are immune, but you still take half the damage?
That's already how I set it up (for this most recent update): Dryad element enemies take 0 self-damage, Dryad resistant players take half self-damage.

Burst_-_Health_Cost will check if an actor (enemy or player) is Dryad element (not if they're strong against Dryad, but if they are set as Dryad element) and if true, do no self damage. If the actor isn't Dryad element, it then checks if they're strong against Dryad (e.g. via equipment) and if true, divide the self damage by 2 an extra time.

The immune behavior is back to how it worked before the change to function with elemental equipment.

Did you mana drain Aegagropilon down to 0 mana? If an actor has 0 mana, Burst will do full self damage regardless of element / resists; this is also how how it worked before any recent changes for elemental equipment.

Edit: Also I meant to mention I looked into Bomb Bee's AI a little, and it looks like it requires a Bomb Bee's target to be at a very specific position for it to cast Exploder / Burst, like, target horizontally aligned, less than 8 distance, but target also slightly above, and then a 1/16 chance... something like that. I never got it to even reach the 1/16 check; I never managed to stand in the correct position relative to the Bomb Bee. Likely that part of the AI script needs to be rewritten if you ever want it to actually cast.



Quote from: Mr X
Pretty sure everyone that plays a SoM hack is familiar with the game one way or the other. I am not talking about vanilla experience. It's minority that would play Turbo as a first time, or any SoM hack for that matter. Everyone else has some experience with the original game and attempt to play hacks of it.
Quote from: Lyrin
I played vanilla for about an hour (several times) before giving up. Switching to this made the game more enjoyable. Not completely blind but pretty close.

I've had multiple people contact me via PMs asking for help or suggestions on using Turbo with a first play-through of the game. While my general assumption is that people messing with ROM hacks (or modding for any game) will be familiar with the vanilla game, that's not universally true.

Also, if any such people happen to read this, please just post in this thread, my PM box is full and hard to manage!



Quote from: Soul Knight
Why defense, and not offense?
Well, the answer is twofold:
1) The defense boost was a vanilla bug that Bonus_Weapon_Damage fixes, so Element_Match_Defense is a feature to intentionally re-enable the bug because it was arguably good for gameplay
2) Saber Spells already meaningfully buff offense, and nearly all enemies who cast them already match the element of the Saber Spell they cast, so a further boost to offense would both nearly always happen, and necessitate figuring out where in the damage formula to insert this additional boost, which would then further complicate balance planning



Quote from: Mr X
(for example an enemy weak to Lumina using light saber boosts def against Lumina spells)
Having it remove weakness to whatever element the Saber Spell is, including for players using Elemental_Equipment, may be a reasonable mechanic. I think having it give strong resistance (or even immunity) would be overkill.

Having Saber Spells buff magic of that element may just be going one step too far. The Saber Spells already add a status effect proc, boost offense, boost defense on element match, and may be gaining weakness removal.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2020, 05:19:58 pm by Queue »

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200612
« Reply #1495 on: June 14, 2020, 12:53:02 am »
Oh, you're right.  I didn't reduce its MP to 0, but I thought I saw Aegagropilon damaging itself right after it casted Burst.  I guess I saw it wrong.  I retested it, and it works fine.

Edit: Also I meant to mention I looked into Bomb Bee's AI a little, and it looks like it requires a Bomb Bee's target to be at a very specific position for it to cast Exploder / Burst, like, target horizontally aligned, less than 8 distance, but target also slightly above, and then a 1/16 chance... something like that. I never got it to even reach the 1/16 check; I never managed to stand in the correct position relative to the Bomb Bee. Likely that part of the AI script needs to be rewritten if you ever want it to actually cast.

Oh, I thought I saw Bomb Bee (vanilla) casting Exploder.  But now, I'm not sure anymore.  Oh well.

June 16, 2020, 10:21:03 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Man, I've recently started playing fan-made Mega Man games, like Mega Man Unlimited and Mega Man 8 Famicon.  Holy christ.  They are so freaking good.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2020, 10:21:03 pm by hmsong »

Skyy

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200612
« Reply #1496 on: June 16, 2020, 07:48:00 pm »
I just registered to say thank you so much to everyone involved, SoM is my favorite game of all time and this hack makes it feel like a whole new game that's even better! :D

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200619
« Reply #1497 on: June 19, 2020, 03:17:42 pm »
Version 2020-06-19:
https://filebin.net/7spaiz2xfys6b2i1/SoM_Turbo.200619.zip

Changes:
- Equipment_Tweaks + Elemental_Equipment no longer reduces Guardian Ring defense

This is just a maintenance release.



Nearly all of my time is currently going into the Script Augmentation Project. I've got the weapon affinity = spell mana cost reduction almost worked out, but it needs a little more work before it's ready for testing. Reducing the displayed mana cost, minimum mana to cast, and mana cost when casting are all very separate parts of game code that have to be altered, and making them all behave identically means extra time to make sure it's all synchronized. If I want the info displayed accurately in Relocalized's spell descriptions, that will be even more work since those descriptions are currently hardcoded.

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200619
« Reply #1498 on: June 19, 2020, 07:28:55 pm »
Thank you for the update.  Looking forward to the script augmentation.  And weapon affinity = mana cost edit.  But as you said, displaying how it works with the Relocalized (among others, like my Spell Balance and numerous kethinov's hacks) will be... tough.

Skyy

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200619
« Reply #1499 on: June 20, 2020, 04:24:30 am »
Say I didn't check the readmes of each individual patch yet but is it intended that you can only have one of each equipment-item in your inventory at any given time?