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Author Topic: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200226  (Read 190907 times)

zoolgremlin

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200110
« Reply #1140 on: January 11, 2020, 01:09:13 pm »
Ugh.  Finally got over that bronchitis I had.  A nasty thing to suffer through, but at least not life-threatening.  Between that and the summer swelter in Australia, I didn't have any vigor for getting back to my hacking attempts, or efforts to learn the "trade" of it.  Damn... well, I'm here now anyway.   :)

Just a few words from me for now, and I'll Comment on a few more things later.  Since I mention residing in Australia, some of you may wonder if I've been affected by the bushfires happening.  The short answer is no.  I'm happy to give the long answer if anyone asks, but maybe we'll do that in a PM, since it's not in the purview of the Turbo project, or ROMhacking in general.  :crazy:

Quote
Queue: The only thing gameplay-wise that I have in mind is getting New Game Plus balance fixed up, and that's not even relevant for a first playthrough. On top of that, I've always kept any changes I've made compatible with vanilla saves, and made accommodations so that other peoples' work included in Turbo is as well (I'm looking at you "Item Limit Increase" -_-).

I just had a read an hour or more ago, back over my stuff on Google Drive.  This was to refresh my memory on what I'd done so far, and what still needs work.  Also helps in getting pumped up to go back to work on this sort of thing, hehe.   :D

In regards to compatibility with other hacks, including Turbo and its companion mods:

  • Many of my tweaks were not written with compatibility issues in mind, at first.  That was because for the most part, I was tweaking things that almost no other hack I know about has ever tried to change.  Like the Weapon Damage Algorithm in general, or the Mana Seeds granting no bonus to Enemy/Boss attacks more specifically.  Errr, just to list two small examples.
  • I do however, know of many if not all compatibility issues with mods I have written, in relation to already-existing ones that are popular.  So when I go to work on them again, I will be at least checking to ensure that any incompatibilities are mentioned in my documentation, if they aren't already.
  • So as listed on GDrive, most of my mods have not been written in a way that uses the REQ script in the ZPS custom format, to check for certain conditions, among other compatibility issues.  However, that is certainly a goal that I would like to work on, in the long run.
  • My main reason for that is that unlike most modders/hackers, I don't yet know how to write a patch in the .ips format, which is one of the standards for the modding community.  I may ultimately learn how to do that, but only if there's no other way to write mods for anything I'm interested in.  Which up to now has been... only Secret of Mana.  I've modded other games before, but not with my own "skills", if you can describe them as such.   :laugh:

    So yeah, when it comes to modding SoM, doing so within the ZPS format and script syntax, is definitely the most expedient of ways right now.

Quote
Also from Queue:  The momentary 100% display seems to be a bug with the vanilla code that calculates what numbers to show: the actual time spent recharging should be as expected (not sure if any vanilla action triggers this, but that doesn't mean it's not potentially faulty vanilla code)

I think I know part of what you and hmsong are referring to here; the issue is not with the actual stamina% value being rapidly (EDIT) DEcremented in the "Stamina Recharge" function, as you say Queue.  The thing that's borked, I believe, is the display of that number (or rather, its inverse ratio) on the game screen HUD.  I noticed the same display issue when tweaking the function, to create a mod that increases the recharge rate by 50% of the Vanilla formula, instead of doubling it like yours does.

The way I did my mod seems to be correct for the most part (gotta check again), but the weird display issue made me wonder if I'd bugged the game myself, by fiddling with it.  That's happened before, while experimenting with what's possible.  I'm glad somebody else noticed too, otherwise I'd think I was going completely mad.  Instead of being just halfway there, harhar.   ;D



On a lighter note, good to see you all again, my very talented friends.  Happy New Year (rather belatedly)!  I can't easily meet any of you face-to-face if that were desired, but I seem to get along with you better online, than some people in the flesh.  Still amazes me that this is even possible... a great human achievement.  :beer:

I should catch up with Archiving this Project thread for a bit.  UPDATE:  Aaaaand done!  It took me a while, but only because my extended break has left me out of practice with stuff.  There weren't very many recent Posts to Archive, just had to check my work a dozen times due to attention-span lapses and confusion on my part.  Sleep time coming up, take care now everyone.  Back soon...   ;)
« Last Edit: January 12, 2020, 11:21:00 am by zoolgremlin »
MASTER LINK:  Secret of Mana Information (Vanilla)

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hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200110
« Reply #1141 on: January 11, 2020, 09:24:44 pm »
Good to see you again, zoolgremlin.

I didn't know you had bronchitis.  I'm glad to hear you are better.  When I hear Australia, I think of that place as some kind of death trap waiting to happen (everything that exists there can kill you).  Not just because of the recent fire, but also the wildlife.

kethinov was kind enough to teach me how to make ips files, using Lunar and hex editor.  It was actually a much simpler process than I thought it was.
1. Have an unmodified rom, and have the modified rom.  If you're using the zps, then have the patch you want turned off (while everything else is on) as the unmodified rom, and make another rom with the patch turned on as the modified rom.
2. Use the Lunar IPS exe and click on the "Create IPS patch" button.
3. Follow the instruction.
4. Profit.

It worked like a charm.  You can also simply make a copy of the unmodified rom, and then use the hex editor to modify whatever you want, then save.

I don't know how to modify ips file itself though.  I only know how to make a fresh copy of the ips file, not modify the existing ips file.  I tried using hex editor to modify that, but the addresses for those weren't at the right place.

It seems like you're creating your own patches for the game (just like I have).  What patches are you working on?

And happy new years from Korea.

zoolgremlin

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200110
« Reply #1142 on: January 12, 2020, 11:11:49 am »
@hmsong:  Ah! There you are, my good friend from Korea!  I see that your previous Post was sent at 10:24am your local time, a very early start for replying on this forum.  I was still asleep at the time due to my "nightowl" tendencies.   :crazy:

I think my tendency is to get the bacterial form of bronchitis (also known as a chest cold), that sticks around for a while without medicine to kill the disease faster.  Yes, I am better now, and the temperatures in my local area are much cooler than last week's "tropical sweatfest".  So my luck has turned around in two ways at once.  Thank the Mana Goddess for that!  Harhar...  ;D

I considered saying all this in a PM, but there's only been a handful of people at a time, who Post on this thread.  If there were any real problems with my Posting style, I'd have expected a warning from the RH mods by now, soooo... all clear I guess?  Hopefully...

By the way, I'm aware now that Australia is commonly perceived as a "dangerous, untamed land" because of wildlife.  Buuut... I only found out about this perception 4 years ago.  Australia can be dangerous, alright, but that's more to do with extreme weather than the famous "toilet spiders" and "kickboxing kangaroos".  You can find extreme weather of some kind or other, anywhere on Earth.  A poet once described our country as being "of droughts and flooding rains", both of which count as extreme.

But I should now move on to the rest of your reply... good to see you again.   :beer:



RE:  IPS PATCH FILE CREATION

Is it really that easy?  Well, being new to this hobby, I too would've thought it was less trivial than that.  I also would not have guessed that .ips files can (apparently?) be tweaked or rewritten in a hex editor.  Which by the way, I haven't used for awhile.  I still remember how, but haven't needed to as far as SoM Turbo goes.

Thanks for letting me know about this method of IPS generation.  You too kethinov if you happen to read this.   :woot!:


RE:  MY "PATCH COLLECTION" (this is hopefully as much self-promotion as I ever do!  Just teasing...  ;))

To be fair to myself, I've... mentioned things that I've personally experimented with in previous Posts, or want to experiment with, hehe.  But I should say in advance... no offence taken.  I can easily forgive anyone here for not knowing or remembering any of what I said.  After all, we each have our own lives, and our own ways to pursue the hobby of ROMhacking, whenever we can do that.

There's a short answer and a long answer to this.  The long answer is best Linked to more directly as follows:


[LINK 1] (folder):  Prototype Shortlists of SoM Hacks - WIPs (folder name in GDrive)
[LINK 2] (document for <z000> mod series)
[LINK 3] (document for <z100> mod series)



To explain briefly, [LINK 1] is a folder containing ONLY the four files needed for my proposed patches.  At present, I am the only one confirmed by myself to use them, for testing purposes and fun.  The documentation about the Vanilla ROM data structure, is more significant to other people interested in SoM Turbo/Vanilla at present.  Understandably...  :)

[LINK 2] and [LINK 3] lead directly to documents I wrote about the patches.  They contain info about what the mods propose to change, and eventually will explain how they work.  I indexed the patches that I've made and tested so far, into two series.  First series is <z000-099>, second is <z100-199>.  Both number ranges are in decimal, not hex.  In case you wonder, nope.  I haven't used all of the numbers yet, not even close.   :laugh:

In the folder name, WIPs stands for Works In Progress.  Meaning that not all of my proposed mods are finished yet even if bugfree, as some are pretty ambitious.  The two documents also still need editing and updating from time to time, until... whenever.   :crazy:

Feel free to read the documents, everyone, if you have time and want to do that.  If you don't, that's okay too.

The (hopefully) short answer will either go under a horizontal line in this Post soon, or I'll do a new Post with the answer after someone else Posts.  Whichever comes first...  :D
« Last Edit: January 12, 2020, 03:15:08 pm by zoolgremlin »
MASTER LINK:  Secret of Mana Information (Vanilla)

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hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200110
« Reply #1143 on: January 12, 2020, 09:32:55 pm »
Oh yeah.  I remember reading about that before, but back then, I didn't really understand.  Now, I do (well, some of them).  Looks like a big project, if you add them all up.  I don't know how it'll look as the final product, but looking forward to it.

zoolgremlin

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200110
« Reply #1144 on: January 13, 2020, 10:13:04 am »
Aaaand... I'm back.  Got my head back in the game now, or at least into keeping up with Archiving this thread.  There's still a few things to rev up for, regarding my little side-project, and continuing the Vanilla ROM dissemination documents.   :P

But first, a continuation of my previous Post.



@hmsong:  Ah yes, as I recall you did Comment about skimming my proposed mod files and not really understanding.  By that time, though, you were already getting into hacking the game yourself, getting tutored by the great man Queue himself.  So your free time was already invested elsewhere.  No worries!

I'm not altogether certain myself, what the final product of my tinkering, Archiving and disseminating will be.  At the very least, I'd like for the ROM data structure to be comprehensively documented and explained, in due time.  My little side-project is not as significant as that.

Since you asked a few days ago, however, here's the short answer.  A few examples about what I've been experimenting with, and what I'd like to try.


Category 1 - Ideas already tried or in-progress

  • Alterations to the algorithm that calculates whether or not a physical hit lands on a target, and how much damage it will do if it does.  It's a very loooooooong function in Bank 0x00 that I have had tremendous fun toying with, and reading through in the Documentation provided to me anonymously.  Several short mods in the <z000> series deal exclusively with tweaking small chunks of code, in this algorithm.
  • Isolating the code that Timbo or someone else wrote, as a part of the Relocalized hack (which changes a LOT of things in one go), to do with changing the Ring Menu icon for the Burst spell into a different color.  So that was somebody else's work that I plucked out of a large data block, and put it on its own.  Not my idea.  I would've had NO idea that was even possible, or how to do it.
  • Changing the +1/-1 bonuses/penalties to STR/AGI/CON, applied by the game when selecting an AI setting for Player Party Members.  I zeroed them out, but the bonuses/penalties can be made much larger, if anyone wanted to do that.  Probably only I would stick with the zeroes... hehe.
  • In Vanilla, Intelligence is only used by the game to calculate spell damage/timer length for Black Magic effects.  Meaning that its a useless stat for the Boy and Girl, as only the Sprite's magic uses it.  LAAAAME... I changed it so that Intelligence is also used to calculate MagicBlock% for all three PCs, whereas Vanilla uses Wisdom.
  • Changing the modifiers to Hit%, Eva% and MBlk%, as calculated from a target's Agility or Wisdom score, to be much higher.  Vanilla modifier is S/4 (where S=the relevant stat being used when loading/refreshing character/monster stats).  My proposed modifier is S/2.  Twice as much.   :o
  • Made it so that the dummied-out Status Defect (which Queue made use of to put in (Quag)mire), reduces Agility by 50% when inflicted.  Instead of piddling 6.25% in Vanilla.  Fat lot of good that does, but since the defect was dummied in Vanilla, it didn't matter back then.  But now... eh, it's debatable.
  • Etc., etc.  I could go on and on, but it may be best to just read the Linked documents.  This is hopefully a good sample to read.   :laugh:


Category 2 - Ideas that I would like to try (very briefly)

  • Change spell names, as displayed in the Menu and at the top of the screen when selecting/casting.  Egs. are Miracle Star for Revivifier (if changed into a Luna spell), Toxic Pollen for Sleep Flower (if [Sleep_Flower_Poison] is ON], Holy Saber instead of Light Saber, Light Shield instead of Lucid Barrier, etc.
  • Change spell descriptions, as displayed in the Menu.  I've seen Timbo's proposition for a standard format to use for that, and I like it.  I think you said that you're using the same format for Dust Flare/Fire Bouquet.    ;)
  • Change Intelligence to apply a greater modifier to Black Magic power, and Wisdom to apply a greater modifier to White Magic Power, by the [Spell_Power/Timer] function, when it is called.  This would make everything in the game, not just PCs, cause more damage/longer effect, when using Magic.  The Spell Power/Timer function also could use some love in other places.
  • Alter the AI subroutines for various Monsters/Bosses, so that they stop doing retarded shit like Mech Rider III, Marmablue, Mana Beast/Aegagropilon Reflect-spamming in response to Dispel Magic, etc.  Also, give Dark Lich more dangerous spells like Lunar Magic, Magic Absorb, Lava Wave with the Engulf status, Shadow Saber on the PCs, rather than himself, etc.  I think you and Queue already came up with a plan for Mech Rider III and executed it, though.  So well done.  Mr. X suggested the ideas for Dark Lich.  Excellent stuff.   ;)
  • Alter the Weapon Data Table (for all combatants in the game) to do things differently, especially tweaking and/or overhauling monster/boss weapons.  Which in some cases are bugged, as you and Queue discovered with Axe Beak in the Pure Land, and in other cases are just too weak/strong.  There are also unused spaces in the lookup tables which I think is a waste of precious ROM space.  Other egs. Alter the power differential between each stage of a PC weapon's form, as well as the status defects inflicted, and the chance of infliction.  Change the weapon equipped by a Doom's Eye AND Blue Dragon for the Confuse Hoops special attack, which is both too low in power (0x00), AND inflicts Moogle instead of Confuse!  A senseless mistake in the Vanilla game...  ::)
  • Change the Shops in the game world to sell a greater/different inventory, just to mix things up a bit.  This has been done a few times before, but not necessarily in a way I would prefer.  There's a lot of different options there, including making all items buyable, instead of having to farm for Rare Drops.  Which is silly for a single-player game.
  • And there's a list of others based partly on discussion that has happened in this very thread.  I drew the list before taking a break from thinking about SoM Vanilla/Turbo.  Which went longer than I first planned for.  Don't know whether I should put the full list on here, but this is a good sample of what's piqued my curiosity.  Thanks, guys.   :thumbsup:


The two lists above are not comprehensive, but maybe they don't need to be.  Not yet.  But part of the reason for Archiving this thread, is that I can have another way to refer to ideas expressed in the past, that I think sound pretty interesting.

Sorry, did I say this was the SHORT answer?!  Please excuse me for my brief lapse in judgement.  Hehe...  :crazy:

I'll come back later and see how things are, have a good one guys.  <wave>
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 05:45:56 pm by zoolgremlin »
MASTER LINK:  Secret of Mana Information (Vanilla)

"Yes, the Author is indeed a horse!"  <zool>

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200110
« Reply #1145 on: January 13, 2020, 07:12:27 pm »
Some of the things you mentioned in Category 2 were already done (although in other people's image).  #1, #2, and #4's Dark Lich.  Queue created many many shortcuts for those, so I used them in [Spell Balance Overhaul] (name change, description change).  Well, you probably saw the posts.  And #4's Dark Lich skills were changed in [Enemy Behavior Changes].  And if I remember correctly, kethinov changed the Wall check in his [Harder Final Boss] patch, at least for Mana Beast.

So you can simply use those as examples to create your own patch to your image.  Well, I'm sure you're already doing that.

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200110
« Reply #1146 on: January 16, 2020, 08:32:48 pm »
Sorry for the radio silence, been hammering away at Functional Fashion to finally get it polished up and finished, namely menu screens, stamina recharge and poison palette compatibility. Also been working on something with kethinov.

Hopefully will have an upload ready tomorrow.

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200110
« Reply #1147 on: January 16, 2020, 10:19:25 pm »
Ooo.  Looking forward to it.  I hope manual guard problem is solved (I'm guessing that's the stamina problem that you mentioned.

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200110
« Reply #1148 on: January 17, 2020, 08:45:42 am »
I'm pretty sure I have the isolated code in hex for all of my hacks somewhere. I'll try to look into it somewhere.

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200110
« Reply #1149 on: January 17, 2020, 09:16:24 pm »
Wow, Timbo.  I don't think I've ever seen you here.  I'm very happy to see you (and talk to you).  I'm sure you hear this often, but thanks for the Relocalized version of SoM.  Very intensive and impressive work, really.

Are you working on anything else nowadays?  Whether it's this game or anything else.

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Workaround for frequent music cutouts, missing sounds thanks to MSU-1
« Reply #1150 on: January 18, 2020, 05:04:42 am »
Hi everyone,

sorry if this is the wrong place to post, but I've really been enjoying "Secret of Mana, Turbo" especially in conjunction with the MSU-1 functionality. I love MSU-1, but I much prefer the original SPC music for this game. One thing that has always bugged me about the original game is the frequent sound cutouts in the music, when you're fighting or just even running around.

Based on an ingenious tool made by zeldix.net user emuandco, I was able to adapt his script to convert the official original SPC soundtrack that is available with the Secret of Mana Remake PC Version (required for this to work!) to an MSU-1 soundtrack that (obviously) sounds exactly like the original SPC from the ROM, but actually uses MSU-1 to free up the sound channels.

The result: pristine SPC music as originally intended by the composer on original SNES hardware.

If anyone wants to try the tool, it is available at the following link:

https://mega.nz/#!xqAUWCSa!CXbYKaEohRAYt3nX3GoMO3uA391Iad8FoTZOaZRGOW4

ALL CREDIT GOES TO emuandco FOR THIS AWESOME TOOL!!!
(all I did was re-write the script with new loop values and file paths)

Original topic on zeldix.net forums:
http://www.zeldix.net/t1647-secret-of-mana-script-for-converting-the-remaster-soundtrack




lexluthermiester

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Re: Workaround for frequent music cutouts, missing sounds thanks to MSU-1
« Reply #1151 on: January 18, 2020, 10:19:35 pm »
Hi everyone,

sorry if this is the wrong place to post, but I've really been enjoying "Secret of Mana, Turbo" especially in conjunction with the MSU-1 functionality. I love MSU-1, but I much prefer the original SPC music for this game. One thing that has always bugged me about the original game is the frequent sound cutouts in the music, when you're fighting or just even running around.

Based on an ingenious tool made by zeldix.net user emuandco, I was able to adapt his script to convert the official original SPC soundtrack that is available with the Secret of Mana Remake PC Version (required for this to work!) to an MSU-1 soundtrack that (obviously) sounds exactly like the original SPC from the ROM, but actually uses MSU-1 to free up the sound channels.

The result: pristine SPC music as originally intended by the composer on original SNES hardware.

If anyone wants to try the tool, it is available at the following link:

https://mega.nz/#!xqAUWCSa!CXbYKaEohRAYt3nX3GoMO3uA391Iad8FoTZOaZRGOW4

ALL CREDIT GOES TO emuandco FOR THIS AWESOME TOOL!!!
(all I did was re-write the script with new loop values and file paths)

Original topic on zeldix.net forums:
http://www.zeldix.net/t1647-secret-of-mana-script-for-converting-the-remaster-soundtrack
This is very cool! I don't think it would be a rules violation to post a Mega link to the SPC based MSU1 OST that you made.

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200118
« Reply #1152 on: January 19, 2020, 01:37:27 am »
Version 2020-01-18:
https://ufile.io/wopa9jr0

Changes:
- Blocking_Drains_Stamina bumped from "Buggy" to "Experimental" status
- Speed_Up_-_Faster_Recharge code cleaned up to work better with Double_Stamina_Regen (also, apparently it reduces stamina regen when Tangled, so added that to the description)
- Implemented Quality_of_Life\Reverse_L_and_R_Hotkeys to let you swap the L and R shoulder button functions for Manual_Block, QuickSpells, etc.
- Implemented Graphics\No_Eyeless_Girl; technically more of a bug fix, but arguably up to personal taste, alters the stamina recharged palette to not white-out the girl's eyes
- Fixed an obscure bug in Functional_Fashion that could cause discoloration when equipping items
- Improved Functional_Fashion to be compatible with the poisoned status effect
- Improved Functional_Fashion to be compatible with menu screens (stats, save, etc.)
- Slightly altered the shadow on the item shop building in Potos



Whew, finally got that out the door. Kept running into bugs with both Functional_Fashion and Blocking_Drains_Stamina. Think they're at least crash-free now at least.

zoolgremlin, arg, you always write so much, I don't even know where to begin responding. For now, whatever, happy to see you!

hmsong, all I ended up getting to was Manual Block stuff. Let me know what you think. I encourage you to try with various combinations of _Blocking_Requires_Full_Stamina and _Blocking_Drains_Stamina to see how it behaves.

Timbo, anything source-like or reference-material-y would be welcomed. Or well, anything, period. Glad to hear from you.

PabloGaldini, neat! I've been using emuandco's dealie for MSU-1 music, but I'll give your variation a spin as it sounds like some of your nitpicks were also the same as mine (you however did something about them). And in that format, there should be no problems with it being linked on this forum as we have to provide the re-release game files ourself. And I welcome that sort of post in this thread, if that's what you were worried about.

kethinov

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200118
« Reply #1153 on: January 19, 2020, 02:22:07 am »
New hack: Frosty the Friendly Alchemist

This patch adds a small, friendly snowman to a range of wintery locations who will offer you a concoction to drink that will heal you and restore your MP. Though Frosty sometimes hides from the nearby monsters, so you might not always see him unless you clear the monsters first.

Locations:

- Upper Land winter section.
- The resort town in Ice Country, only after liberating Salamando.
- The middle of the Ice Castle. This Frosty will allow you to save too.
- Pure Land winter section.

Frosty is useful in these areas because they are generally fairly long and without many good places to rest. This hack also makes use of the not widely seen "pygmy snowman" graphic, which while not technically dummied out (it's possible to see it in the original game under very specific circumstances) is almost never seen under normal circumstances.

Likewise, the snowman's dialog is unused dialog that always existed in the game but had never been used before: "Drink this medicine! It'll fix ya right up!"

The original Japanese version of the event indicates that it was supposed to be used in Tasnica in place of an Inn, but this was probably scrapped because it is fairly pointless to have an Inn in Tasnica; even a free one. Instead, this hack uses that story event in a more useful way.

Important things to note:

- Known issue: When saving in the Ice Castle, the save file will say "Frosty Forest."
- How to combine this with the Variable Width Font hack: 1. Apply VWF, 2. Remove header, 3. Apply this hack, 4. Apply this hack's VWF support hack.
- How to combine this with Relocalized: 1. Apply Relocalized, 2. Apply this hack, 3. Apply this hack's Relocalized support hack.
- In order to make room for the snowmen, some non-unique NPCs were removed: a Moogle from the Upper Land, a Steamed Crab from the Upper Land, a Mushboom from Elinee's Castle, a Specter from Ice Castle, and a Needlion from the Pure Land.

Download: http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4886/



One thing that has always bugged me about the original game is the frequent sound cutouts in the music, when you're fighting or just even running around.

Based on an ingenious tool made by zeldix.net user emuandco, I was able to adapt his script to convert the official original SPC soundtrack that is available with the Secret of Mana Remake PC Version (required for this to work!) to an MSU-1 soundtrack that (obviously) sounds exactly like the original SPC from the ROM, but actually uses MSU-1 to free up the sound channels.

The result: pristine SPC music as originally intended by the composer on original SNES hardware.

This sounds awesome.

I wonder about compatibility with the music hacks I've written, such as Restore Unused Fanfares, Different Boss Music for Buffy and Dread Slime, Upbeat Elinee's Castle, Sad Moogle Village, and Echoey Matango Caves? Will further work be required to make your work and mine compatible?
« Last Edit: January 20, 2020, 10:57:46 am by kethinov »

PabloGaldini

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200118
« Reply #1154 on: January 19, 2020, 03:24:06 am »

PabloGaldini, neat! I've been using emuandco's dealie for MSU-1 music, but I'll give your variation a spin as it sounds like some of your nitpicks were also the same as mine (you however did something about them). And in that format, there should be no problems with it being linked on this forum as we have to provide the re-release game files ourself. And I welcome that sort of post in this thread, if that's what you were worried about.

All of you guys (including people like emuandco!) working on improving the SOM experience are simply awesome! If a little bit of my .bat editing and testing can contribute to what you have created through true dedication, work and time, I'm glad.

Just so this additional info isn't overlooked from emuandco's original zeldix.net thread, let me expand a little on what I wrote there:

CHANGES FROM EMUANDCO's ORIGINAL VERSION OF THE MSU-1 CONVERTER SCRIPT:

- REMOVED the following MSU-1 sounds from being included in the conversion process, so the game falls back on the actual SPC sounds in the ROM, due to inconsistent playback, missing sounds or simply because they didn't fit as well (you don't lose anything, as the SNES simply plays the original sound from the ROM (I love how MSU-1 implements this fallback, by the way!), which is what all of these "SPC MSU-1 tracks" sound like anyway):

07 = Close your Eyelids (converted MSU-1 version would cut off the first few notes; this could be fixed by padding, as emuandco originally did for the REMASTER version of this tune, but I don't see the point as it would sound exactly like the working ROM SPC version currently being "called" by the game)
18 = Menu music (converted MSU-1 version got really loud after a few seconds; don't know why, but Square Enix must have messed this one up, as it affected both the original as well as the remaster version of the music on the PC; since this music plays only in the new game/save file loading menu and right after having slept at the inns, I think it's best to fall back on ROM SPC here)
25 = Cannon Travel Launch (SFX) (custom sound by emuandco for the REMASTER, but sounded inconsistend with the SPC soundtrack; since emuandco made his custom sounds (they are ones missing completely from Square Enix REMASTER version) to fit with the remaster soundtrack, it didn't fit with the original SPC sound)
26 = Cannon Travel Flying (SFX) (timing of the converted MSU-1 didn't match the length/timing of characters flying; could be fixed by padding, but not necessary, as ROM SPC works just fine)
30 = New Continent Rises (SFX) (custom sound by emuandco for the REMASTER, but sounded inconsistend with the SPC soundtrack; as above)
43 = In the Darkness' Depths (The Dead of Night) (converted MSU-1 version had the wrong timing for the SFX that plays at the end of this opening cutscene; also: original SPC version just sounds better; emuandco fixed this by padding for the REMASTER version of the OST, but again, as this song plays absolutely fine via ROM SPC, there's no reason to use the converted MSU-1)

Fun fact: emuandco actually implemented a fix for the famous "whale singing" and intro music for the REMASTER (as Square Enix made this into one music file for the PC version); the nice side-effect of this is that the MSU-1 converted version of the SPC actually has BETTER timing on the intro screen, than even the original ROM SPC! Check out the part where the screen "slides open" from black to reveal the title screen art - it now fits exactly with the cymbal sound


This sounds awesome.

I wonder about compatibility with the music hacks I've written, such as Restore Unused Fanfares, Different Boss Music for Buffy and Dread Slime, Upbeat Elinee's Castle, Sad Moogle Village, and Echoey Matango Caves? Will further work be required to make your work and mine compatible?

I'm not entirely sure how these were implemented by you (I'm not a programmer at all!), but for the songs, if these are existing tracks, just being used in a different order/placement, wouldn't the patched ROM call them via SPC or MSU-1 (depending what is available) anyway? Also, emuandco originally added two unused fanfares, which I've left bundled together with the script, so they should be incorporated. Also, if they are "unlocked" in the patched ROM itself, the ROM SPC version of these fanfares would simply be used (?)

In a way, I could make my version of the converter script a lot more efficeint, if I ONLY had it create MSU-1 versions of the SPC music, where actually needed. Thus, only for those instances where the SPC music is at risk of being muted/interupted by the game's SFX (which unfortunately is in A LOT of places)

QUESTION ABOUT DOWNLOAD LINKS:
- Would it be okay to share a pre-converted MSU-1 package of this "SPC to MSU-1" soundtrack here for your testing purposes?

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200118
« Reply #1155 on: January 19, 2020, 05:58:37 am »
@Queue

Wow, the new Manual Guard works great.  One question.  It seems that depending on... something, the stamina meter (while holding block) goes all the way down to 0%, while sometimes, it goes down only to ~40% (at slower rate?).  I'm not sure what that's based on.  I can send you the save files for you to test.  For example, I have a save file near the Fire Palace (char level Lv 28), and the stamina went down only to 40% before auto-recharging, while in another save file in Mana Fortress (Lv99), the stamina went all the way down to 0%.  Was this intentional?  If so, what does it depend on?  Level?  Equipment?  Plot progress?

Also, it seems that you can still momentarily guard, right after attacking (while stamina is recharging?).  My guess is that it's a moment where the attack animation "finishes", but before stamina meter starts recharging.  Even if you apply [_Blocking_Requires_Full_Stamina] (while [_Blocking_Drains_Stamina] is off), you'd be able to hold guard forever while not having full stamina (stamina will be stuck at 1%).

I love how Speed Up makes it so that guarding doesn't consume any stamina -- this allows players to attack immediately after guarding, even with bad timing (hence making Speed Up a bit more useful).  It still requires you to actually have full stamina before being able to guard though, if [_Blocking_Requires_Full_Stamina] is on, which I'm guessing is intentional.

Great stuff.  I still want Speed Up to enable [Run_When_Tired], assuming it's off when I patch, but I also know that you made no promise for that.

For other stuff.  No_Eyeless_Girl works great, but it still doesn't seem to quite change to her original eye color (although it's no longer white).  Maybe it's my eyes playing tricks on me?  I can't quite tell.

Just out of curiosity, why did you decide to create [Reverse_L_and_R_Hotkeys]?  Was it for the same purpose as [Inverted_Ring_Menu_Rotation], aka just in case someone wants to switch the controls?

Thank you.



@kethinov

Holy crap.  The new Snowman heal sounds awesome.  I hope it doesn't interfere with Queue's Farmable Sword.  I can't test your patch, because the address you posted is not hyperlinked.

Edit:  Nevermind.  I can just copy/paste the address.  Silly me.

I just tested it.  No problem with Farmable Sword Orb.

However, while saving in the Forest works just fine (saves as Icicle Forest), but when you save in the Ice Castle and load from there, the save file actually says, "Icicle Forest", instead of "Ice Castle" or "Ice Palace" (or whatever the name of that place is).  Also, the BGM doesn't play.

And speaking of which, is it really necessary for the Snowman to exist right below the Snow area Neko?  I feel that it's not really necessary, since vanilla Neko provides the shop and save in the area above.  I feel it would be much better if the snowman save exists in one of the houses (or right outside it?) in the former paradise in the ice forest (after saving Salamando).  Dunno if that's even possible though.

I feel that Pure Land can use that tiny Snowman heal/save (I know there's Neko save, if you enable that, but that's a different patch altogether so...).  Specifically, the same place where Neko and Watts are, except maybe replace the Jump pad thing (if Pure Land Neko patch is off, then the snowman will be surrounded by enemies, but that's fine, I think).  If not that, then how about in the cave, right after Axe Beak?  Well, the snow area in Pure Land would make more "sense", but it's too near the beginning of Pure Land, hence making it less useful.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 07:06:24 am by hmsong »

kethinov

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200118
« Reply #1156 on: January 19, 2020, 03:38:24 pm »
However, while saving in the Forest works just fine (saves as Icicle Forest), but when you save in the Ice Castle and load from there, the save file actually says, "Icicle Forest", instead of "Ice Castle" or "Ice Palace" (or whatever the name of that place is).

The Ice Castle doesn't actually have a name in the location names tables and is assigned to the "Frosty Forest" location name. There's actually a lot of empty space in the location names tables, so I suppose it would be possible to give the Ice Castle maps their own name distinct from the other Frosty Forest maps on the save screen, but I'm not sure how to map those things. I'd have to dig into it. For now I figured it was fine as-is since the Ice Castle is in the Frosty Forest. ;) But yeah, that detail bugged me too, so I'll put digging deeper into it on the to do list.

Also, the BGM doesn't play.

Doh. Thought I tested that before posting. I just stealth fixed it since RHDN hasn't posted the hack yet. Just redownload the original link and it should be fixed now.

And speaking of which, is it really necessary for the Snowman to exist right below the Snow area Neko?  I feel that it's not really necessary, since vanilla Neko provides the shop and save in the area above.

The main idea here is you might be tapped out of MP after the Boreal Face fight and it'd be nice to refill along with a free heal before heading into the Ice Castle without having to get gouged by Neko. I don't mind buying a few Candies or Chocolates from him, but his premium on Faerie Walnuts is extreme. Frosty can also resurrect you.

I feel it would be much better if the snowman save exists in one of the houses (or right outside it?) in the former paradise in the ice forest (after saving Salamando).  Dunno if that's even possible though.

I looked into this first, mainly because I felt it would be nice to make that map actually useful after the event is over, but it's infeasible for a few somewhat amusing reasons:

It's possible to place a Frosty on the outdoor map without too much fuss, but when you reload your save file there you get stuck in a tree. Notably basically every other map in the Frosty Forest suffers from the same problem. Saving and reloading in nearly all the other maps will put you stuck in a tree.

For the map inside the houses there are no spare NPCs nearby in memory that are convenient to convert to Frosty. Even if there were, all the doors are "return" doors rather than proper doors. Reloading inside a house would result in getting stuck inside the house forever, as when you exit, you have no place to return to so the game freezes. This is also why I can't offer a save point for the Neko in the Neko in the Underground City hack.

I feel that Pure Land can use that tiny Snowman heal/save (I know there's Neko save, if you enable that, but that's a different patch altogether so...).  Specifically, the same place where Neko and Watts are, except maybe replace the Jump pad thing (if Pure Land Neko patch is off, then the snowman will be surrounded by enemies, but that's fine, I think).  If not that, then how about in the cave, right after Axe Beak?  Well, the snow area in Pure Land would make more "sense", but it's too near the beginning of Pure Land, hence making it less useful.

I gave this some thought, but my thinking was a bit different than yours. I only considered snowy areas. With that limitation in mind, there are three locations besides the Frosty Forest and Ice Castle that are worth considering:

1. The Salamando paradise town which is infeasible for reasons noted above.
2. The winter section of the Upper Land.
3. The snowy section of the Pure Land just before fighting the snow dragon.

I had previously declined to put them in the Upper Land and the Pure Land thinking there would be diminishing returns or something, but on further reflection I think it would be useful for much the same reasons. In the Upper Land it would be nice to have a place to refill MP before fighting the Spring Beak. In the Pure Land it's a long slog, so getting a free heal in the middle would be nice too.

I'll issue an update later that expands the locations for Frosty to Upper Land and Pure Land accordingly. (Assuming it doesn't result in getting stuck in trees.)

January 19, 2020, 04:36:10 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Okay, dug into it. I stealth edited the 1.0 version again to add a snowman to the snowy part of the Pure Land. The Upper Land section is infeasible because the reloading your save file there crashes.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 04:36:10 pm by kethinov »

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200118
« Reply #1157 on: January 19, 2020, 05:31:48 pm »
@kethinov

Hmm.  I feel that Snowman would benefit a lot by NOT being a save point.  The whole save/load is the one that causes crashes, but for the most part (Upper Land, Ice Forest, Pure Land), there's already save points nearby.  In addition, you can put the Snowman in the paradise if he doesn't become a save point.  As you mentioned, it's the lack of healing points that's the issue.  I would personally want a healing point, but not saving point, since all the areas (except Ice Castle) have save points very nearby.

Maybe have a separate patch for non-saving snowmen?  Or maybe some snowmen saves, while others don't?

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200118
« Reply #1158 on: January 19, 2020, 06:28:20 pm »
Quote from: PabloGaldini
QUESTION ABOUT DOWNLOAD LINKS:
- Would it be okay to share a pre-converted MSU-1 package of this "SPC to MSU-1" soundtrack here for your testing purposes?
Unfortunately, that would violate forum rules. The music itself is copyrighted and not acceptable to redistribute.



hmsong, I know you want Run_When_Tired-like behavior with Speed Up, but taking a look at what it would entail, it's a nice little chunk of new code to make work. I may get to it someday, but not something I intend to work on soon. I should be able to make Speed Up cause blocking to be activable even when not full stamina; are you sure you want that?

Being able to block right at the end of an attack is a side effect of you still having full stamina at the end of the attack... I don't consider this a bug or anything, as it behaves exactly according to how it was programmed. It also doesn't really seem especially abusable: blocking (now) pauses stamina regen, and if you hold the block that then also hurts your stamina (unless you have Turbo_Mode On and Blocking_Drains_Stamina Off).

To explain the Blocking_Drains_Stamina percentage, I need to clarify that what we call stamina (or power) is actually more like exhaustion. When at 100%, the character has 0 exhaustion. Maximum exhaustion is based on a character's agility stat. At 99 agility, a character's max exhaustion is 50 (which is good, they never have to recover more than 50). The formula is (100 - AGILITY) / 2 + 50. So, 100 at agility 0, and 50 at agility 99 (the division rounds down). Blocking drains stamina always caps at 50 exhaustion, which means at 99 agility, that will show as 1%, while with 0 agility, it would be 50%. Regardless, it always takes the same amount of time to drain and regenerate 50 exhaustion (there's no difference in the time it takes regardless of what minimum % it goes to). There's no easy way to change this: if you could always block until 1%, you'd actually lose maximum block duration as you leveled up (gained agility). That isn't unthinkable, as it would mean blocking would be less forgiving as you level up, which is when you've hopefully gotten better at the game and can manage a shorter maximum block time, but this also runs counter to how RPGs generally work, where they don't expect mechanical mastery to factor in to game progression (most players expect things to get easier in an RPG as their characters stats go up, not harder). So, I don't like how unintuitive it makes the % display, but given how stamina / exhaustion actually works, I don't really see an option besides block getting worse as your agility increases (which is unintuitive in a different way).

No_Eyeless_Girl is more or less as good as it gets. The boy, girl and sprite all share one palette for that white flash when their stamina finishes recharging. I tried setting the slot that affect the girl's eye color to her normal eye color, but it then looks terrible when the boy or sprite finish recharging. The color I went with was a bright version of her eye color so that her eyes are still visible, but it doesn't look too awful on the boy (his shoes and wrists) or sprite (necklace I think?).

Reverse_L_and_R_Hotkeys was a "just because" that had been on my to do list since forever. zhaDe's NGI originally had the hotkeys as L for block and R for quick spell, but I flipped them before my first public release because I like them better this way. This was finally putting in an option to revert them back to zhaDe's design.

kethinov

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200118
« Reply #1159 on: January 19, 2020, 08:49:36 pm »
@kethinov

Hmm.  I feel that Snowman would benefit a lot by NOT being a save point.  The whole save/load is the one that causes crashes, but for the most part (Upper Land, Ice Forest, Pure Land), there's already save points nearby.  In addition, you can put the Snowman in the paradise if he doesn't become a save point.  As you mentioned, it's the lack of healing points that's the issue.  I would personally want a healing point, but not saving point, since all the areas (except Ice Castle) have save points very nearby.

Maybe have a separate patch for non-saving snowmen?  Or maybe some snowmen saves, while others don't?

I stealth edited it again. Still 1.0 since RHDN hasn't posted it yet. Same download link in the post above.

This revision places a snowman in the following locations:

- Upper Land winter section.
- The resort town in Ice Country, only after liberating Salamando. (The one near Neko was reverted.)
- The middle of the Ice Castle.
- Pure Land winter section.

None will offer you the option to save except for the one in the Ice Castle.