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Author Topic: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200211  (Read 188266 times)

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191129
« Reply #1000 on: December 01, 2019, 01:46:56 pm »
Mr X, I'll look into the spell cast + charge = broken teammate AI. Based on fixing some of the charge attack behavior recently I have an idea of some of what could be going wrong there, so here's hoping.

As for the whip... there are some vanilla bugs involving weapon stats not updating correctly when switching weapons under certain circumstances that could be the cause. Do you have another weapon at the moment that can proc Balloon? It could be you had that weapon equipped then changed weapons to the whip at just the right (wrong) time so that it changed the weapon art but not its stats; I think one circumstance is changing weapons in the middle of taking damage, but I've not yet looked into the specific circumstances.

hmsong, I have no interest in messing with the sword orb enemy or Frosty at the moment; I don't think what you're proposing is a bad idea, just have lots of other things I'd rather work on. I don't know if kethinov's Frosty change has side effects, I haven't gotten to trying it; my guess is that it should, but it would be great if it doesn't.

Thanks for the Blaze Wall / Dust Flare fix.

Yes, that change can be made for Burst_-_Health_Cost; I'll make it so it checks the casted spell's element, and the spell caster's element, and if they match, no self damage. I think by that point it's too late to add in a mana cost... do you want any sort of mechanism to prevent them from having a completely unlimited spell? For example, if their mana is zero (maybe because the player drained all their mana) they still take damage? I don't know which enemies this will affect and how hard or easy it is to drain all their mana, so don't know if emptying their mana (and then letting them cast burst until dead) would then be too easy of a way to defeat them, etc. I think it might be worth setting up and playtesting to see if it's viable.

Couldn't say for certain why his Bursts wouldn't have been hurting you.

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191129
« Reply #1001 on: December 01, 2019, 02:24:24 pm »
Queue yes another character had the spear that could inflict the balloon status, but didn't attack the enemy for sure.

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191129
« Reply #1002 on: December 01, 2019, 08:55:48 pm »
@Queue

Turns out, Aegagropilon's chain casting (before the victim even gets damaged) is a vanilla behavior.  I tried it in vanilla, and it did that.  Interesting.  Burst actually damages my PC, but the damage gets canceled if it is chained to Sleep Flower.  I'm gonna take a look at the behavior and see if there's anything that I can do to change it (not very confident, but I shall try).

EDIT:  Hmm.  There's no obvious way.  I think it's somewhere around C2/51AD (or C2/523B), but I don't see how I can change any of that.  The description even says, "[Get a random number...then fuck it. Cast Burst]".

As you said, I don't want it to cost MP, even if the Dryad element enemies don't take self-damage (so Dryad element enemies get that cool benefit of forever abusing Burst with no HP/MP cost).  But again, as you addressed, having them damage themselves if they run out of MP sounds great (due to MP Drain, or they overuse other spells, etc).  Programming that sounds rather complicated, but I'll leave that part to you.

As far as I know, the only vanilla enemy that uses Burst that is not Dryad element is Dark Ninja.  And I like it that he damages himself when he uses it, since he uses it as a desperate move when he's below certain HP.  I liked it so much that I also made it in [Enemy Behavior Change] so that Silktail does that too when it's below certain HP.

As far as I know, the Dryad element enemies that use Burst are Pumpkin Bomb, Nitro Bomb, and Aegagropilon.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2019, 11:42:37 pm by hmsong »

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191129
« Reply #1003 on: December 02, 2019, 12:36:55 am »
Boreal Face is a Dryad enemy that uses Burst too.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2019, 12:43:23 am by Mr X »

lexluthermiester

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191129
« Reply #1004 on: December 02, 2019, 01:04:22 am »
Version 2019-11-29:
https://ufile.io/rdmo9358

Changes:
- Fixed Equipment_Trashing_Fix so that it should work reliably

I experienced a weird glitch with this revision. I tried a combination of patches and the resulting ROM was corrupted. Tried it again and no issues. Did anyone else have a similar experience or was this a one-off?

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191129
« Reply #1005 on: December 02, 2019, 04:56:05 am »
I experienced a weird glitch with this revision. I tried a combination of patches and the resulting ROM was corrupted. Tried it again and no issues. Did anyone else have a similar experience or was this a one-off?

Didn't happen to me.

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191202
« Reply #1006 on: December 02, 2019, 04:06:04 pm »
Version 2019-12-02:
https://ufile.io/wivm5xzm

Edit: Don't use this, scroll down for 2019-12-02(b).

Changes:
- Fixed Dust Flare accidentally recoloring low level Blaze Wall
- Implemented Bug_Fixes\Text_Box_Overlap; this should prevent the bug used to end the game in http://tasvideos.org/2739M.html
- Implemented Bug_Fixes\Mana_Magic_Endless_Fix; this should prevent Mana Magic from lasting forever if you cast a Saber buff after applying Mana Magic



Mr X, I haven't been able to reproduce making the girl cast spells interfere with her weapon charging / AI. Everything I've tried she's either maintained her charge, or it reset to zero but then she charged back up and behaved normally. There's clearly some specific situation I'm not triggering.

lexluthermiester, there shouldn't be anything specific to that update that introduced a problem, but it's entirely possible some specific combination of features causes an inviable ROM. If it happens again, please set aside (and then upload / copy & paste here) the "SoM Turbo.#date#.ini" file that's saved when the ROM is a dud.

hmsong, adding in the zero mana check can be done in as little as 5 bytes of code (and I currently have 40 bytes of free space remaining with SSE), so I may as well include it. For comparison, the caster element match check took something like 15 bytes of code.

As for Aegagropilon, I see some of what you're looking at, but it'll take me some time to analyze the logic for his actions to work out the intent. I'll also look into why Sleep Flower damage cancels, because I don't think it should...
« Last Edit: December 03, 2019, 03:39:09 am by Queue »

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191202
« Reply #1007 on: December 02, 2019, 05:30:50 pm »
Queue weirdly enough that seems to be the case mainly for the Machine fight in the sunken continent and the mana beast fight but doesn't happen anywhere else, at least I wasn't able to track it elsewhere as I don't usually have her charge attacks.

Try one of those two fights

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191202
« Reply #1008 on: December 02, 2019, 07:22:17 pm »
@Queue

Excellent.  Thank you fixing that problem.  Vanilla Aegagropilon doesn't chain as frequently in the beginning, but it definitely chains ineffectively after waiting a bit.

Also, you may want to update the log for the recent 20191202 version (HP cost for Burst).

EDIT:  I just checked, and with the self-damage gone for Aegagropilon, he doesn't do as many weird chain spells.  So problem solved, for the most part.  So thank you.

EDIT2:  Hmm.  Beating any boss seems to make things crash.  Please check that out.

I'm sorry to make another request, but here I go:

Could you please make the Manual Guard less OP?  I was replaying from the beginning, and bosses like Spikey Tiger is a joke now, because you can see its melee attack coming from miles away, and you can just hold Guard to be completely immune to it.  Maybe you can make it auto-disengage after holding the button for 2 seconds (btw, I like how holding Guard for more than 1 sec makes you recover stamina after disengaging).  Or you can make it so that Guarding after 2+ seconds does the opposite -- P.Eva = 0, which punishes players for holding the Guard button.  And just to make people not be able to spam Manual Guard, make it so that it cannot be used while Stamina is not 100% (or, you can use Guard, but it does opposite of guarding -- P.Eva = 0).  So, you would need reasonable timing skills to actually guard against boss attacks (if you're really good, you won't even lose stamina -- reward for good timing), instead of just mindlessly hold guard to make boss melee attacks useless.  2 seconds seem very reasonable (more than fair, imho).

And speaking of bosses' melee attacks, if the PC is too strong, bosses that "eat" would-be-victims actually get hurt.  These include Biting Lizard, Snap Dragon, and Aegagropilon.  Is that some sort of bug?  Or was it intended?  I don't get how that works, since no other melee attacks do that.  If anything, they should gain HP (since they're literally eating), not lose HP.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2019, 07:56:25 am by hmsong »

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191202
« Reply #1009 on: December 03, 2019, 03:31:18 am »
Queue weirdly enough that seems to be the case mainly for the Machine fight in the sunken continent and the mana beast fight but doesn't happen anywhere else, at least I wasn't able to track it elsewhere as I don't usually have her charge attacks.

Try one of those two fights

I actually managed to make this happen outside of those two fights. It doesn't always happen but sometimes I still get it. Set the Girl AI charge attack to level 4 at least, have her charge her attack and cast a spell as she charges her attack. She wont do anything and stops moving for some time as if she is trying to cast the spell but can't, you can't access magic either as if the spell is being casted.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2019, 04:20:08 am by Mr X »

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191202
« Reply #1010 on: December 03, 2019, 03:37:26 am »
Version 2019-12-02(b):
https://ufile.io/jp3btjzk

Changes:
- Fixed a crash bug in Bug_Fixes\Text_Box_Overlap, whoops.
- Implemented Bug_Fixes\Boss_Defeat_Controller_State; fixes some faulty code that probably has no actual affect on the game.

Will post actual replies tomorrow. Just wanted to get the fix to Text_Box_Overlap uploaded before I went to bed since it was game breaking.

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191202
« Reply #1011 on: December 03, 2019, 05:48:49 am »
Mech Rider 3 still reflects his own Lunar Magic hmsong

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191202
« Reply #1012 on: December 03, 2019, 08:01:30 am »
@Mr X

That's because you didn't enable [Spell_Balance_Overhaul].  It allows few spells to bypass Wall.  But you make an excellent point.  Thank you for telling me.  I shall make another code that uses IF and IFNOT, so if people don't use [Spell_Balance_Overhaul] (Turbo default doesn't use that), Mech Rider 3 will use another spell.

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191202
« Reply #1013 on: December 03, 2019, 08:29:07 am »
@Mr X

That's because you didn't enable [Spell_Balance_Overhaul].  It allows few spells to bypass Wall.  But you make an excellent point.  Thank you for telling me.  I shall make another code that uses IF and IFNOT, so if people don't use [Spell_Balance_Overhaul] (Turbo default doesn't use that), Mech Rider 3 will use another spell.

Oops my bad, I see.

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191202
« Reply #1014 on: December 03, 2019, 04:56:11 pm »
Mr X, I still haven't been able to get the girl to jam up (or sprite for that matter; I've been trying to have both do weapon charging and then had them cast spells, both using the normal menu and via quick spells). I'll keep at it though, will just keep my eyes peeled while playing and see if I can get her to misbehave while in the debugging emulator.

To clarify, is it casting a spell while charging up, or casting a spell while a charge attack is being performed?

hmsong, got that "b" release out last night to fix the boss crash issue.

For boss "devour" attacks, the reason the player hurts them (I'm pretty sure) is because the player plays the "stand back up after being knocked down" animation, which counts as an attack animation. It probably wasn't an intentional aspect of those boss's attacks, but probably not really accurate to call a bug, because nothing is working incorrectly. There are probably a few ways to change it so the boss doesn't automatically take a melee hit from the player; I'll see what I can do.

Manual blocking has come up multiple times over the past year. My stance is: I don't really care that it's a perfect defense. Here's my reasoning:
1. I usually hate timing-based blocking in games; I don't find it fun. I want to be in a guarding "state" where I can just say "okay, I'm going to turtle for a bit and decide what to do next."
2. The player can't do anything else while blocking, and there's a short time after releasing block where they can't attack (due to waiting on the animation to finish). Without Turbo_Mode, there's also the stamina penalty.

So, I actually want blocking to be mindlessly easy; it's not like you're hurting the enemy while blocking, and the AI teammates are too dumb to make good use of a player intentionally tanking the enemy.

I've toyed with some ideas to make blocking a little more engaging like:
- direction player is facing matters
- blocking a hit disengages block for a moment
- percentage of damage gets through block
But found all just made blocking annoying and not worth using.

Yes, many bosses telegraph their attacks: I think it's a good thing that the player is rewarded with no damage by reacting to that and blocking. You can also start blocking in the middle of some boss attacks (like being eaten) and then not take damage: this is also a reward for remembering to block.

I think all of that is a positive for gameplay, blocking has to be worth using since you're not outputting damage while blocking. Spikey Tiger is actually a perfect example of OP block being a good thing: a lot of his attacks are BS, and he's an early game boss, so if the player knows that block is worth using, they can make an early boss fight trivial (which it SHOULD be, it's early in the game, the player's still learning how to play and has limited capabilities).

And to round out my argument, it's useless against spells, and later bosses tend to be more spell heavy.

All of that said, I'm not completely against doing something to make Manual Block more interesting, but I have to find it both not annoying to use and worth using, and the changes have to be worth sinking more time into it (it works, even if it's currently overly simple and OP) since there are still like a million other things I want to do. Even as OP as it currently is, I'll often go long stretches without using it, either because being hyper offensive results in less damage to my party over all, or simply because I forget (or because I have DEBUG_MODE on, which disables Manual Block).

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191202
« Reply #1015 on: December 03, 2019, 05:36:10 pm »
Queue it's casting a spell while charging up

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191202
« Reply #1016 on: December 03, 2019, 06:05:17 pm »
@Queue

Ah.  I see.  I didn't know manual block issue has come up few times before.  I just found things unusual that even against Dark Lich and Mana Beast, the manual guard lets PC get away with a lot.  Esp Dark Lich (even in Hard Mode).

I'm sure you have many things you want to do.  I just hope that at some point in the future, you'll be able to make the manual block more interesting and less OP.

It's true that later bosses use more spells, but most of the time, they're mitigated by MP Absorb (esp with Early Luna) and Shadow Saber.  Btw, I still think 2 sec block would make Spikey Tiger very easy.  Not mindlessly easy, but easy nevertheless.

December 03, 2019, 07:18:01 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)

@Queue

As Mr X addressed for Dust Flare, I'd like to put something in Dust Flare that'll make Mech Rider 3 not do vanilla's stupid behavior with his 2nd spell (1st being Wall), assuming [Spell_Balance_Overhaul] is not applied.  If I give him attack spell, he'll cast that non-stop (makes it a very boring fight).  If I give him a buff spell, it'll get reflected (as vanilla did).  So, the best course of action is to use the Wall Bypass that you created.  Applying the code is easy enough, since I already did that for [Spell_Balance_Overhaul]:

Code: [Select]
IFNOT Spell_Balance_Overhaul ' compat
@OFF %Spell.Data.Fire_Bouquet%Target% ' I think this should get the job done for Speed Up after Dust Flare is applied
RAW Spell.Target.Allies.WallBypass
@OFF %Spell.Data.Defender%Target%
RAW Spell.Target.Allies.WallBypass
@OFF %Spell.Data.Lunar_Boost%Target%
RAW Spell.Target.Allies.WallBypass
ENDIF

The problem is, I don't know where to put it.  I know that one of the codes "copy" the pre-Dust Flare's Speed Up, so does that mean I should change the target for Speed Up, and not Fire Bouquet?  Or does that depend on where the code is placed?  I think somewhere after "' element fixup (after copying data)" would work.  What do you think?  I'd appreciate it if you could help me.  I know this doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Dust Flare, but I didn't know what else to do (specifically for people who don't use [Spell Balance Overhaul]).

I actually wanted to make Mech Rider 3 check for buff FIRST, and then branch to Wall check, but I didn't know how to do that.  And I wasn't sure if it'll affect Mech Rider 1 and 2.

Oh, and the description should also include something about the 3 buff spells bypassing the Wall.

Btw, any idea how to figure out which weapons bosses have equipped?  I see the codes, but they're all 00, and I don't know how that works (or what its stats are).
« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 03:45:22 am by hmsong »

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191205
« Reply #1017 on: December 05, 2019, 04:12:21 pm »
Version 2019-12-05:
https://ufile.io/p55piqb0

Changes:
- Updated kethinov's Neko and Watts in the Mana Fortress from v1.2 to v1.4
- Added kethinov's Neko and Watts in the Pure Land, slightly altered positions to prevent the player from getting stuck in walls (hoping you swing by kethinov so we can discuss this; I tried to move them as little as possible)
- Split some parts of hmsong's Spell_Balance_Overhaul into a new option named Some_Buffs_Bypass_Wall; Spell_Balance_Overhaul includes Some_Buffs_Bypass_Wall automatically
- Removed Experimental label from Dust Flare
- Implemented Balance\Axe_Beak_-_Sonic_Sleep; should slightly buff Axe Beak's Sonic Pulse and Sleep Gas attacks (in code they had their own weapons that caused sleep but were overridden at the last second to have no status effect); not properly tested yet, need to know if this affects Spring Beak and that there aren't side effects (like adding Sleep status to Axe Beak's normal attacks)
- Implemented Balance\Persistent_Saber_Buffs; should allow Saber buffs to persist through weapon changes, especially important for enemies who constantly reset their equipped weapon; probably doesn't affect bosses correctly (and needs lots of testing)



hmsong, I took a different approach and just split off the simple Wall Bypass parts of Spell_Balance_Overhaul to Some_Buffs_Bypass_Wall (which is On by default); I put your name on it since it was your selection of spells. If Spell_Balance_Overhaul if On, Some_Buffs_Bypass_Wall's changes are included regardless of its checkbox state. Let me know if you want either adjusted further.

To answer your questions regarding "I don't know where to put it." it depends on if you put the change to Speed_Up before or after the:
Code: [Select]
' copy spell data (skip elemental summon animation)
@OFF $D02EA2 ' Spell.Data.Fire_Bouquet +2
COPY D02BA2 3E ' Spell.Data.Speed_Up +2
If I had implemented it as part of Dust Flare, I would've put those changes first thing in Dust Flare, before the COPY, so would have changed Speed Up instead of Fire Bouquet (but made it a separate feature instead).

Since Some_Buffs_Bypass_Wall is applied before Dust Flare, I had it change Speed Up (which Dust Flare then copies over to Fire Bouquet). Does that make sense?

The order patches are applied (unfortunately) isn't based on their checkbox order. If you add DEBUG under [Options] at the top of the ZPS file then apply the patch, then open ZPS_Debug.log, the "LINKER: ASM" section of the log shows what order the patches were applied. If you search for "(mods)\Magic\WallBypass\.asm" in ZPS_Debug.log you can see the order the [Magic] section patches are applied.

Mech Rider III's AI could be changed so that he does his buff before Wall, but it wouldn't make that big of an overall change to his AI (which pretty much always does those two things first); he'd initially get the buff on followed by Wall, but once the buff fades, he'd recast it without checking for Wall, so it wouldn't help much. Reworking his AI to be less dumb than that would be complicated by space constraints. For now, getting the buff to bypass Wall will likely be acceptable.

Boss weapon data is at $D0BDC1 (0x10BDC1); each entry is 7 bytes long.
AAAA BB CC DDDD EE
AAAA = uh, not positive, always zero in vanilla data, might be affinity and/or element
BB = accuracy
CC = power
DDDD = status effect
EE = I don't know

Their AI controls which they equip during any given attack (so finding which they use varies by boss and involves looking through their AI), and unlike normal enemies, they should be able to directly equip any boss weapon they want, instead of having two weapons they flip between.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 05:35:17 pm by Queue »

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191205
« Reply #1018 on: December 05, 2019, 06:32:54 pm »
@Queue

Excellent!  Your new Wall Bypass is a great solution.  I thought about requesting that, but I figured it'd be just a bother to you, since you'd have to create a new section and all (and because I requested so many other things).  Thanks!

Yeah, Wall Bypass solves the problems regarding Mech Rider 3.  Excellent.

Err.  So bosses' individual attacks all have different stat value?  Yikes.  And now I see why Thunder Breath is so damn powerful (did 400+ damage on my Lv99 character with the best armor available by Pure Land).  I kinda wanted to modify Mana Beast's melee attack powers (fire breath, side flight attack, front flight attack), but I don't know which codes they are.  Any idea?

Thanks for creating Persistent_Saber_Buffs.  I shall test things out and report back.

December 05, 2019, 10:58:48 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)

Wuw.  I guess Persistent_Saber_Buffs applies to the PCs too (even if you switch weapons with Menu).  Now, Dispel Magic (self) is gonna be WAY more important than it used to be.  And Stardust Herb may soon be necessary (since Shade element comes much later).  Was "PCs' saber magic persists" intentional?

And Gigas casting sabers on PCs is gonna be more make-sense than it used to be (well, you can still overcome it with another saber magic, but some people don't think about that).  And it gives me ideas about making enemies cast Saber spells on PCs -- it forces PCs to use Stardust Herb/Dispel Magic, or cast another saber magic.  I shall play around with [Enemy_Behavior_Changes].

I don't see Spring Beak doing anything unusual.  Actually, Spring Beak doesn't seem to have any melee attack, other than [Approach = damage] thing.  And it didn't cause any SE.  Axe Beak patch doesn't seem to work.  I had all my armors off, except helmet (Needle Helm), and neither Sleep Gas nor Sonic Pulse did any SE (it did lots of damage, obviously).

I noticed while I was playing -- even with [Doubled_Bonus_Damage] off, [Bonus_Weapon_Damage] seems to give too much bonus damage.  For example, enemies that should resist element are taking more damage from the resist-element saber attacks.  For example, I'm attacking Griffin Hand (it should resist Thunder) with Lv99 Randi with Lv8 Sword (Dragon Buster):

  Normal damage: ~160
  Lv7 Thunder Saber: ~180
  Other Saber (Ice Saber): ~210

That can't be right.

EDIT:  Well, what do you know, I stand corrected.  Even in vanilla, it did that (although that may be because vanilla's saber magic didn't apply any element to the weapon).  Hmm.  That extra power-buff (depending on magic level) is a lot more than I thought it would be.  Now, there may not be any reasons for high-level-magic enemies to cast saber magics on PCs (well, bosses can still do that, as long as they multi-target to give less buff).  But I still want enemies to get power-buff from saber magic, since that makes the enemies' attacks stronger.  Not entirely sure about this problem.  I don't want enemies to absorb their own element though, since that would be just nuts.  Maybe have the enemies have really high P.EVA against their own element?  I have a feeling that'll be impossible to program though.  Damn.

Any idea?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 12:43:19 am by hmsong »

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191205
« Reply #1019 on: December 06, 2019, 01:37:56 am »
Well, making some enemies absorbing their own element is no big deal, SD3 did that it was never a problem for me at any point.