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Author Topic: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191205  (Read 128839 times)

kethinov

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191018
« Reply #740 on: October 18, 2019, 11:28:07 pm »
"Buggy"?  While it would be weird for non-pushable monsters to be pushable, but it wouldn't be a bug of any kind, right?

I think in Queue's estimation that would constitute a bug, but we'll have to wait to see if I guessed his view on the subject correctly.

And didn't you put Wizard Eye in Mana Fortress in Missable Monsters patch?  Did you make it unmovable?

That is an interesting question... Just checked, looks like the answer is yes! I should fix that too.

For me it's an easy fix because I'm editing the monster spawn table directly. Queue's technique is different and more complex. It may be harder for him to make enemies pushable that weren't before or non-pushable that were before for some reason. I'm not sure. Just guessing.

Also, what are the normal unmovable monsters, other than Eye Spy and Wizard Eye?

Not sure what the complete list is, but off the top of my head it's at least those plus ghost/spirit monsters that are not pushable. Not sure what (if any) else.

lexluthermiester

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191018
« Reply #741 on: October 19, 2019, 04:17:24 am »
Version 2019-10-18:
https://ufile.io/rnh6l4m4

Changes:
- Implemented Bug_Fixes\Deathless_Foe_Fix; should solve the unkillable enemy issue
I can verify that these fixes seem to have worked. I am no longer finding unkillable enemies.

teahouser

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191018
« Reply #742 on: October 19, 2019, 05:02:59 am »
Ran through the mana fortress and didn't encounter any unkillable enemies, looks like you fixed the problem, great work!

I also have an idea about the whip's negative knock back. While it's awesome being able to suck the enemy closer with the whip, sometimes for whatever reason you want to leave the enemy at a distance and do damage, but using the whip always sucks them in close. What if the whip's Dpad overhand attack caused negative knockback, but the weak attack didnt, and kept them at the same distance? This could add a little more variety in how the whip attacks.

Started a new game plus, excited to play through again.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2019, 06:20:31 am by teahouser »

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191018
« Reply #743 on: October 19, 2019, 05:55:20 am »
I also have an idea about the whip's negative knock back. While it's awesome being able to suck the enemy closer with the whip, sometimes for whatever reason you want to leave the enemy at a distance and do damage, but using the whip always sucks them in close. What if the whip's Dpad overhand attack caused negative knockback, but the weak attack didnt, and kept them at the same distance? This could add a little more variety in how the whip attacks.

Good idea.  I second that.

Btw Queue, thanks for the Dust Flare update.  They work great.

October 19, 2019, 08:52:36 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)

@Queue, @kethinov

Do you know where I'm supposed to look if I want to modify the boss drops?  I'm trying to switch one of the Emperor Castle's chest (Whip's 5th orb) with the Mech Rider 2's drop (Javelin's 4th orb).  I think I found the Whip's 5th orb chest (C8D5B0's BC 04), but I have no idea where I'm supposed to look for the boss drops.

Reason:  I generally have a save point right before getting Flammie, but at that point, I have Whip's 5th orb, even before I get Javelin's 4th orb.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2019, 08:53:19 am by hmsong »

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191018
« Reply #744 on: October 19, 2019, 11:18:34 am »
With the dust flare on, Fire gigas will cast speed up/quick on your party. I would change it to cast it on himself or replace that with fire saber so he casts that on himself. Or single target lava wave (so engulf wont wreck your whole party).

I noticed the tiger was casting fireball on your party which is nice.

kethinov

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191018
« Reply #745 on: October 19, 2019, 04:43:04 pm »
Do you know where I'm supposed to look if I want to modify the boss drops?  I'm trying to switch one of the Emperor Castle's chest (Whip's 5th orb) with the Mech Rider 2's drop (Javelin's 4th orb).  I think I found the Whip's 5th orb chest (C8D5B0's BC 04), but I have no idea where I'm supposed to look for the boss drops.

Reason:  I generally have a save point right before getting Flammie, but at that point, I have Whip's 5th orb, even before I get Javelin's 4th orb.

Assuming I'm reading you right, it looks like this is only a problem if you're both:

1. Not using "Level 9 Weapons Progression Balance" and,
2. Are using "Remove Empire Castle Gate Permanently."

Progression should be balanced otherwise.

Anyway, to answer your question more directly, boss drops are much less straightforward to edit than chest contents because they are controlled by the event system. Compatibility with VWF and Relocalized has to be accounted for when editing that.

That said, it took a bit of digging, but I found the event which controls Mech Rider II's weapon orb drop. I could update "Remove Empire Castle Gate Permanently" to do the swap if you like and put up a new version, if the scenario I described above is what you're trying to fix it for. Let me know.

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191018
« Reply #746 on: October 19, 2019, 06:45:29 pm »
@kethinov

Yes, that's exactly what I'm doing.  And yes, that's exactly what I would like.  I figured you would have been too busy, which is why I tried to attempt it.  Thank you.

I'm not trying to insist or anything, but how are you doing with the Dust Flare patch?  Were you able to make any kind of progress?



@Mr X

Wha?  Fire Gigas has that too?  Damn, gotta edit that.  Thanks for letting me know.

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191018
« Reply #747 on: October 19, 2019, 07:03:35 pm »
@kethinov

Yes, that's exactly what I'm doing.  And yes, that's exactly what I would like.  I figured you would have been too busy, which is why I tried to attempt it.  Thank you.

I'm not trying to insist or anything, but how are you doing with the Dust Flare patch?  Were you able to make any kind of progress?



@Mr X

Wha?  Fire Gigas has that too?  Damn, gotta edit that.  Thanks for letting me know.

Yeah I think due to the lava wave becoming more mighty in turbo due to more powerful engulf, engulfing your entire party that early might have resulted in you gettinc wrecked unfairly, it was replaced with fire boquet instead hence why that seems to be the case now. I think it would be mice if Fire Gigas had simply single target spells, that way lava wave wouldnt be unfair that early in the game.

I wont mind multi targeting status effect spells later on the game tho >:D

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191018
« Reply #748 on: October 19, 2019, 07:28:37 pm »
@Mr X

Just so we're clear, the problem is that Fire Gigas casts Speed Up on your party, right? (after Dust Flare patch)  And this isn't about Lava Wave?

I'm looking at the codes, and I'm not seeing it.  Neither in the codes nor when I actually play against him (I played against him twice, and I waited around until he ran out of MP).  I don't see him casting anything other than the three of Popoi's fire magic (and Fire Breath).  I'm not saying you're wrong or anything, though.  I'm simply saying I don't see it -- just because I don't see it doesn't mean it isn't true.

Can anyone else confirm that Fire Gigas is using Fire Bouquet or Speed Up?

Edit:  Oh, I see.  It seems that Lava Wave Engulf patch made the switch, not vanilla.  I didn't know that.  Thanks for letting me know.


@Queue

Could you please add this to the Dust Flare patch?

Code: [Select]
IF Lava_Wave_-_Engulf ' compat
@OFF $C2E09B ' Fire Gigas gives everyone Flame Saber
RAW 0E 03 01
ENDIF

IFNOT _Inferno_Barrier_-_Replaces_Blaze_Wall ' compat
@OFF %Spell.Data.Blaze_Wall%Power% ' ensures Blaze Wall is not inferior to Dust Flare in power
RAW 2B
ENDIF

I thought about giving Fire Gigas the Inferno Barrier, but I felt that it'll be too hard on the players.  If Popoi runs out of MP (and doesn't have Faerie Walnut/Coconut), then players are screwed, esp when they're low-leveled.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2019, 10:02:03 pm by hmsong »

kethinov

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191018
« Reply #749 on: October 20, 2019, 02:32:36 am »
I'm not trying to insist or anything, but how are you doing with the Dust Flare patch?  Were you able to make any kind of progress?

Yes, I dug into spell animation colors when I made Freezing Rain and learned a bit more about how it works. I may have found the bytes you need to edit, though I haven't done extensive testing.

Assuming my tracing is correct, you might be able to manipulate the colors by editing the following bytes:

Speed Up animation color:

Low/med: D1/8B05: C8

High: D1/8B16: C8

Fire Bouquet animation color:

Low/med: D1/8F34: 88

High: D1/8F5D: 8D

For example, changing D1/8F34: 88 to 9B will give the fire the same palette as Stone Saber.

You'll have to play around with it to find something that looks nice. Will take some trial and error, but I'm sure you can find something reasonably attractive. Lemme know if you're still having trouble though, or if I was wrong on tracing one of those four locations. (Again I only did light testing to confirm those should be the bytes you need, so I might have gotten one or more of them wrong in my haste.)

Also FWIW if you still want enemies to cast the original Speed Up or Fire Bouquet spells, I believe that will have to be deconflicted with the original spell animation at some point. (New animation code would have to be written to unused bytes in bank D1 which is a bit crowded and annoying to do, but it could probably be done. But we can cross that bridge once you've finalized the appearance I guess.)

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191018
« Reply #750 on: October 20, 2019, 05:02:14 am »
@kethinov

Oh, I thought you were going to decide what color would be good and finish up what I started.  Well, I don't mind doing the testings, as long as you teach me how to test things.

More importantly, were you able to figure out how to make Dust Flare high-animation work? (Lv9 spell)  At the moment, it doesn't play any animation (right now, the spell plays no animation, and just... damages the target).

Also, I get that 88, 8D, and 9B are some of the options, but how do I "play around" with it?  I don't know which values I'm suppose to use, other than those 3.  How did you know 9B is the Stone Saber color?

Quote
Also FWIW if you still want enemies to cast the original Speed Up or Fire Bouquet spells, I believe that will have to be deconflicted with the original spell animation at some point. (New animation code would have to be written to unused bytes in bank D1 which is a bit crowded and annoying to do, but it could probably be done. But we can cross that bridge once you've finalized the appearance I guess.)

I assume you're talking about the NPC versions, similar to what Queue did for Mud Saber/Inferno Barrier/Shadow Saber.  I don't particularly have any intention of using the old Fire Bouquet (Salamando) and Speed Up (Gnome).  The new Dust Flare (Gnome) and Speed Up (Salamando) works fine for me, esp since I modified all the enemy behaviors that use the old spells.  I even gave Lava Wave an Attack Down in my [Spell_Balance_Overhaul], just so that people would have a way to cause Attack Down.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2019, 05:47:10 am by hmsong »

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191018
« Reply #751 on: October 20, 2019, 06:26:31 am »
hmsong, I'll just try and get through replies sequentially.
Code: [Select]
Moon Saber Defense?I've figured out part of what is probably happening. The first thing Saber spells do is clear remaining saber uses then call the NPC stat setup code to revert their weapon's element. This code reloads all their stats though, so something must be causing this to grant them more defense than when they initially spawned. Not sure why they wind up with more defense (or maybe avoidance? I haven't verified what stat is changing).
Code: [Select]
Pushable Eyes?The enemy type doesn't determine whether an enemy is pushable. The data that puts enemies on a given map controls whether that specific enemy (or NPC, chest, crystal orb, etc.) will be pushable or not. So if a map has say, a Rabite, and it's flagged as pushable (which would be typical), and Day/Night Cycle replaces it with an Eye at night, that specific monster spawn point is pushable. Likewise, a map with an Eye enemy, if it's instead a Rabite at night, that Rabite won't be pushable.

Also, I haven't verified this myself, but I recall reading that if an unpushable enemy spawns adds, they also won't be pushable. Probably worth checking that those Eye-spawned Chobin Hoods and Weepy Eyes are actually pushable.
Quote
Griffin Hand <-> Mushgloom?
Yeah, just so that they trade places at night to spice things up.
Quote
"Buggy?"
The term "bug" (specifically software bugs) is ill-defined. Some people use it to mean anything that doesn't work as expected. Some people use it only for physical hardware defects that affect the software unexpectedly. Most people use it loosely somewhere in between those two extremes. It often hinges on how much blame you want to put on the programmer's competence vs. acceptance that perfection isn't realistic (calling a programming mistake a "bug" downplays that a human was responsible).

Personally, I generally use the term "bug" when the programmer had the right idea in mind but messed up the implementation (to err is human), and "design flaw" when what they had in mind won't work no matter how well programmed (their logic is bad and they should feel bad). The former is an accident, the latter is incompetence. Don't get me wrong, I make tons of design flaws; I rarely call mistakes I make bugs.

I don't actually know what I'd call a nighttime enemy being in the wrong pushable state than expected. It's so technically unimportant that I don't think it's worth roasting someone over it, so I guess I'd just call it a bug. You could blame me for not having a mechanism in Day/Night Cycle that can accommodate the change (though I don't intend to implement that, as it works at the enemy index number level, not at the spawn point level) and accept the limitation and just only swap pushable with pushable and unpushable with unpushable, or just disregard it and don't sweat that some enemies won't be in the right state.

Auto_Talk_Fix fixes what I consider a bug: the programmer accidentally had the A register in the wrong bit mode on a certain code path (in some complex looping code) which caused a crash. Mana_Magic_Unequip_Fix fixes what I consider a design flaw: it works as designed, but the logic is bad so it not only behaves poorly when the boy has the level 9 sword equipped, but it double unequips their weapon (as each of the two different Mana Magic buffs fades). Lots of things in the "bug fix" section I consider fixes to design flaws and not bugs.

Ultimately, none of it matters, I just occasionally indulge in pedantry.
Code: [Select]
Dust Flare stuff?I'll get those changes in. I consider the Fire Gigas to be one of the hardest bosses with default Turbo settings already, hence why I had to get the engulfing Lava Wave out of his repertoire.



teahouser, I entertained the idea of only one of the whip attacks pulling when I implemented it, but unfortunately there's currently no means to tell the two attack types apart when the knockback needs to be applied. You can tell what weapon type applied the damage (so that whips can pull and gloves can always trigger a knockback), but there's nothing that differentiates the two whip attacks.

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191018
« Reply #752 on: October 20, 2019, 07:11:53 am »
What do you think about making Fire Gigas spells single target? That way you have means to get rid of engulf, Lava wave wouldn't be a problem that way imo.

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191018
« Reply #753 on: October 20, 2019, 07:21:43 am »
@Queue

Thank you for answering all my questions.  I sure hope you can get that Moon Saber Defense (or any other saber?) fixed.

I just verified that monsters spawned from unpushable monsters (ex: Chobin from Eye Spy) are indeed unpushable.  Did not know that.



@Mr X

Quote
What do you think about making Fire Gigas spells single target?

SpellS?  As in, all spells from Fire Gigas, and not just Lava Wave?  Hmm.  I like bosses to have multi-target spells.  In fact, I'm thinking about modifying some of the bosses' behaviors so that they'll target multiple targets.  Esp those who use Hellfire and Evil Gate.

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191018
« Reply #754 on: October 20, 2019, 08:01:30 am »
@Queue

Thank you for answering all my questions.  I sure hope you can get that Moon Saber Defense (or any other saber?) fixed.

I just verified that monsters spawned from unpushable monsters (ex: Chobin from Eye Spy) are indeed unpushable.  Did not know that.



@Mr X

SpellS?  As in, all spells from Fire Gigas, and not just Lava Wave?  Hmm.  I like bosses to have multi-target spells.  In fact, I'm thinking about modifying some of the bosses' behaviors so that they'll target multiple targets.  Esp those who use Hellfire and Evil Gate.

Yeah all of them. I feel like Fire Gigas would be difficult enough even with single target spells and he would have two means to inflict engulf, one you could be able to block, the other through magic (lava wave) which you can't avoid, and his magic is still high level, he would deal even more damage individually I imagine if he single casts his spells, while still being fair without engulfing your whole party that early in the game (I beat him before through luck when he still was casting lava wave with engulf status).

I wont mind seeing those bosses target multiple enemies, I think those that multi target spells should have a higher magic power tho imo, Gorgontauturs deals very little damage with level 8 earth slide which is multi target, for example, something you should take into account for that.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2019, 09:02:04 am by Mr X »

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191018
« Reply #755 on: October 20, 2019, 10:14:22 am »
@Mr X

Hmm.  I don't want to modify too much.  I was thinking of modifying only the spells that doesn't have too much affect for multi-targetting (Hellfire, Evil Gate, SEs, etc).  More thinking is necessary.

kethinov

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191018
« Reply #756 on: October 20, 2019, 02:41:22 pm »
More importantly, were you able to figure out how to make Dust Flare high-animation work? (Lv9 spell)  At the moment, it doesn't play any animation (right now, the spell plays no animation, and just... damages the target).

No. I believe I had the same problem with Hellfire also and the workaround ended up being to just not have a high level animation. It uses the medium one instead. So figuring out what's up with that remains an open question to investigate at some point.

Also, I get that 88, 8D, and 9B are some of the options, but how do I "play around" with it?  I don't know which values I'm suppose to use, other than those 3.  How did you know 9B is the Stone Saber color?

Change one to something else in a hex editor, save the file, reload the ROM, cast the spell, see what it does. Rinse and repeat until you find a value that looks nice. I only know 9B is the Stone Saber value because of previous experimentation that I did. I don't know the values for the other standard palettes. I'd have to do the trial and error thing to map them. FWIW 82 is the value for Ice Saber's spell animation. palette, so I suspect the numbers you're looking for range between something like 80 and perhaps AF, but who knows, they could be anything between 00 and FF...

A slightly smarter way to do it would be to go through all the spells, make a list of their animation pointers, find the code in bank D1 it points to that describes the animation for each level of each spell, and then map out every line of code that sets a palette to make a list of the values that way. This is a lot more difficult though, and nearly as tedious. I used this technique to map the Acid Storm and Ice Saber animations so I could make Freezing Rain by combining elements from both. I had a strong suspicion that the Ice Saber palette applied to the Acid Storm animation would look nice, so I tried that first and was happy with it. Only needing to map a couple versions of two spells significantly reduced the effort involved.

I did however go through the effort of mapping all the character highlight palettes (sprite palettes) while I was working on Herbal Boost, thus why I was able to paste a table of those to you before, but I didn't do it for the spell animation palettes (or "weapon" palettes, which I believe share the same values) because trying to map them all just to get a list of palettes would have taken a long time and I had no real reason to bother with it, so I never bothered.

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191018
« Reply #757 on: October 20, 2019, 03:41:51 pm »
Despite being tired of spell stuff, figuring out what controls the high level animations is high on my to do list, so will hopefully have gotten to that before the end of this week.

I'm also curious how boss ability animations work, in that I wonder if their animations can be used by normal spells. That's just brainstorming though, haven't looked at where that data is.



I wanted to explain how the Magic Rope works. The following I haven't double-checked recently (I last worked on this for Northtown_Ruins_Better_Rope which has been a little while), but should be accurate.

A given area in the game can be flagged as allowing or disallowing rope use (or Flammie Drum, for that matter). When you transition from an area that disallows the rope to one that does, the game saves the door number that was used during that transition, and when you use the magic rope, it uses that door. That's why using the magic rope puts you just inside dungeon entrances, instead of outside; it just reactivated the same door that you used to enter.

This is why the Northtown Ruins would leave you up at a balcony door once you'd been out on the balconies (that became the most recent door used when transitioning from a no-rope to yes-rope area).

When you save, the game doesn't save the "rope door" and also when you load, it doesn't get the proper "rope door" number from anywhere. This is surely why dungeons with a save point in them (which is what, the witch's castle?) don't allow using the Magic Rope.

I don't recall how or why dungeons with a room that disallows the rope somewhere inside doesn't mess this process up. Maybe it would so those dungeons just don't allow the rope anywhere? I forget.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2019, 04:26:36 pm by Queue »

teahouser

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191018
« Reply #758 on: October 20, 2019, 05:21:47 pm »
Playing through new game plus, it doesn't like when you go beat the witch right away before picking the Girl up onto the team. I think it makes it impossible to go back to the castle and have the King acknowledge that you beat the witch.

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191018
« Reply #759 on: October 20, 2019, 05:29:04 pm »
Darn, I was worried there'd be a problem there but hadn't worked out how the event flags being in that state would go wrong. I should be able to work out something so that order of events will be doable. Hopefully retroactively, where the king etc. will be properly responsive if the witch problem is already dealt with.