[hmsong]

@zoolgremlin

There you go!  Full Armor, Helmet and Accessory Data Table coming soon... 

Really looking forward to that.

hmsong & Mr. X  I have the patch on my hard drive, but haven't tried using it yet.  If I had to guess, I'd say... it might not have had any compatibility fixes with other mods/patches in Turbo.  Except for Proper-caser.  Is that how you used the patch?

I tried the regular patch (after using Turbo patch).  It crashed.  Then I patched the Proper-Case patch on top of the previous patch.  It still crashed.  Then I made a fresh .smc file from Turbo, then used only Proper-Case patch.  Nothing.

[Queue]

Was getting Firenado imported into Turbo and came across some issues (or whatever some of these count as):
- the first is on my end, the SSE version of Evil Gate didn't perfectly replicate Evil Gate, in that it didn't do less damage on a multi-target cast, will get back to this in a sec, but it's now fixed
- Firenado's high level animations likely aren't doing what is intended:
-- they have "aim type" 0E set, which does some sort of animation override, so you see the high level Exploder animation instead of the high level Evil Gate swirl
-- they specify animation script $D1949C which is a "do nothing" script, to go along with "aim type" 0E (this is intentional, but worth pointing out that that animation script is empty)
-- changing them to the same values as the mid-level variant is a stop gap that at least brings back a swirl graphic
- Firenado's palette is a copy of Lava Wave, so potentially you could save the ~10 byte palette overwrite and just have Firenado's spell icon point to Lava Wave's palette; obviously causes a conflict if Lava Wave's palette gets changed, but then that would be a one-byte correction if the issue ever arises
- Firenado overwrites Exploder's first spell icon with what I'm pretty sure is a byte-for-byte copy of vanilla Evil Gate's, but then also points Firenado's spell icon at Evil Gate's and doesn't use the replaced Exploder icon; this is basically the reverse of what was done for its icon palette
- Firenado copies the entirety of Evil Gate's spell function; there are a few options to change the weakness check logic to make Evil Gate's spell function use the spell data's element for the test so that all Evil Gate variations use the same spell function:
-- like I mentioned at the start, I had messed up and wasn't having the Evil Gate spell function call SSE.Func.Helper.Calc.ScaledLevel (the equivalent in the vanilla disassembly is referred to as CalculateSpellUses, which divides the spell level by the target count), one option for the elemental immunity logic would be to replace this function call with SSE.Func.Helper.Calc.Weakness (SetElementalResistanceValue) which sets the temp var $8F (to 0x01 if strong) and then instead of checking the target's element, instead check temp var $8F (for bit 0x0001 to keep the other logic the same)

Code: [Select]

@OFF $C8ED84
'JSR $C8EA69 :16 ' CalculateSpellUses
JSR $C8E8A0 :16 ' SetElementalResistanceValue
@OFF $C8EDB2
'LDA+X $E1FB ' CHARACTER_TYPE
'BIT #0040 ' BOSS
LDA $8F ' temp, weakness
NOP
BIT #0001 ' strong-- the other option, if the damage reduction on multi-target is to be kept would be to replace its call to the helper function that calculates spell power / duration instead of the level division, because I'm pretty sure nothing from the spell power / duration helper is used in the Evil Gate code:

Code: [Select]

@OFF $C8ED87
'JSR $C8E8C0 :16 ' CalculateSpellPowerAndTimer
JSR $C8E8A0 :16 ' SetElementalResistanceValue
@OFF $C8EDB2
'LDA+X $E1FB ' CHARACTER_TYPE
'BIT #0040 ' BOSS
LDA $8F ' temp, weakness
NOP
BIT #0001 ' strong
Either would make the immunity based on the spell's element rather than a hardcoded element. My vote is to ditch the multi-target penalty on a 12 mana cost spell; it still does meh damage against trash enemies so the penalty seems unnecessary.

[hmsong]

I was... unable to follow that, at least in my sleepy state.  All I understood from that is that one of the calculations ignores the multi-target penalty.

But whatever you choose to do, I'm sure it'll be good.  The important thing is that it works with Turbo patch (I was unable to get Firenado v1.0 to work).  I am looking forward to that.
September 25, 2019, 11:26:27 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)I wanted to know how long the SE lasts, so I tested a Lv7 SE magics on monsters.  My exp tell me that Lv7 Sleep Flower, Balloon, and Confuse last ~58 sec, so I'm confident that all SE lasts ~58 sec at Lv7.  Saber magic SE last ~8 sec.

So I casted Lv7 Sleep Flower (that has poison) on full-health Ice Thug (Pure Land).  It died before the spell wore off (died in ~27 sec).  And since Poison is Max HP based, that means that Poison will absolutely kill any monster that are vulnerable to it, in one shot (if you're willing to wait).  Well, I guess Engulf won't (since it's Current HP based), but we know from experience that Engulf does some crazy damage too (Heck Hound's Lv5 Blaze Wall Engulf did more than 250 damage on my 999 HP character, whereas Death Flower's Lv5 Sleep Flower Poison did more than 300 damage).  Perhaps they both should be nerfed a bit (instead of 1/64, make it 1/128).

[zoolgremlin]

@hmsong  You may want to consider the merit of giving enemies much higher HP, which will compensate them for the turbo-charged Poison/Engulf damage-over-time effect... 

Saber Magic is not timed, exactly.  It gets a certain number that gets decremented by 1, every time you land a hit with it.  A hit that does 0 damage, does not count in that regard, as far as I know.

Also, it would be possible to edit the new code/script in the ZPS that calculates the fraction/percentage of DOT that each do... I'll check.   

[hmsong]

@zoolgremlin

I was talking about the duration of the Status Effects (whether they're from spells or sabers), not magic effects.  Sabers doing x number of hits is magic effect.

And having higher HP won't mean much, since Poison/Engulf does % damage.  That was one of the reasons I preferred a fixed damage from Poison/Engulf (Lv0 does 1/tick, while Lv8 does 9/tick).  Or, to make a difference between Poison and Engulf, Poison should do 1 or 2 more damage per tick than Engulf.

But I don't know how to program things in such ways.  And Queue's method is by no means bad either (I just think it should be nerfed a bit more).

Btw, what is DOT?  Damage... Over Time?

[zoolgremlin]

hmsong:  Btw, what is DOT?  Damage... Over Time?

Yep, you got it right in one!  Swweeeet... 

hmsong:  And having higher HP won't mean much, since Poison/Engulf does % damage

Ah, fair point.  Well, hmmmm...

Got it!  The damage done in one 'tick' of Poison/Engulf, maxes out at 255 (because it's stored in an 8-bit address).  So there's options here that don't involve messing with Queue's code/script, but might come with their own difficulties, when implementing them:

-    Make the duration of Poison/Engulf shorter.  This could be achieved by increasing the Magic Defence/Magic Block% of monsters (or Defence/Evade% in the case
     of weapon status-applying attacks), at least late-game. Alternatively or in addition, diminish the Spell Power (or Weapon Power) of anything that causes the
     two defects, eg. the new Sleep Flower/Lava Wave, the Sprite's Spear (which inflicts Balloon), etc.

-    Make more monsters immune to the two defects.  At least late-game, it can be argued that some of the things you're fighting, ought not to be this frail and
     unhealthy (so high Defence/Mag. Def, high HP, what have you).  Unlike Tales of Xillia 1 & 2, this game doesn't have a difficulty setting that can be toggled
     in-game, at any time outside of battle, soooo... things are either p***-easy all the time, fair and moderate all the time, or balls-to-the-wall hard
     all the time, haha.  I prefer moderate myself, challenging but not a living nightmare.

Does that help by any chance?  It's all worth experimenting with, at least in the long run.  But there's a lot more factors to consider, with the additions of Turbo and it's (now) associated patches/mods/bugfixes/etc.   

[hmsong]

Hmm.  I'm gonna have to experiment to see how things work, but I can't think of anything at the moment.  Yeah, making the duration shorter may work, but I don't want to mess with each individual monsters and edit that.  What to do what to do.

[zoolgremlin]

UPDATE:    A new table is now available in the Google Drive folder I have reserved, for the purpose of disseminating information about the Vanilla game.  It is not complete yet, but it's a start.  Also, all other table documents in the same folder, have been slightly upgraded for the sake of clarity and presentation.  If you are relying on these documents for experimental reasons or any other, I encourage you to download them again.  They may be upgraded or fixed at any time, if need be, and I may forget to disclose as such.  Once a month maximum for the older ones (over 1 month since release) is enough.

Here's the Link to the Folder again, anyone with this Link may view all documents in the Folder.  I am considering the possibility of giving out Suggestions permission for these documents, also:

Secret of Mana Information (Vanilla)   

[hmsong]

@zoolgremlin

As always, thank you.  I shall use them well.  Perhaps it would be wise to put a date on the document.  Not on the file name itself, but in the content of the document (next to the title).

[zoolgremlin]

@hmsong  Good thinking, I will do that now.   

Queue:

• I believe there are still a number of significant points that have come up with no response from myself.  Here's the one I found just now:  Either would make the immunity based on the spell's element rather than a hardcoded element. My vote is to ditch the multi target penalty on a 12 mana cost spell; it still does meh damage against trash enemies so the penalty seems unnecessary.
• Regarding modern game space usage, for games with voice acting, it's not unusual for audio to take up more space than textures; looking back even at a game from 1997 this was true if you chose its high quality sound option during install.
• Well beyond this small sample size for testing the chest, I've observed that taking the eastern route has been far more common than the narrow western path (apparently not everyone notices that it's an accessible route), so the altered monsters has been the primary sticking point.

• I'll put my vote in too... although I never use the fractional-damage function on regular stuff.  Not enough Mag. Def. to justify piercing it.   
• Aaaah, that's a very interesting counter-point to what I said, which actually makes sense now that I think about it.  Great!
• I would cheerfully put in a vote to block off the narrow West path, if it weren't for all the backtracking in the early game.  Now that doesn't bother me anymore, what with "run forever", "change direction while doing it", and "faster stamina regen while killing stuff in-between", options available.  But it might still be a bother to some.  Perhaps if they only stayed blocked until after getting the axe from Watts?  Or some other point?  <shrug>
  
  I don't know if anyone even cares about a map change like that.  The tougher monsters with [Gaia's_Navel_Treasure] counts as a reason not to as well, most likely.   Did I mention there's a "run forever" option?!  Hey, you guys over there who take the long road!  Can you hear me?!  I can see your house from here!! (I kid...) 
  
  More seriously, no-one's clamouring for that, so there is no vote.  Yet... 

[hmsong]

@Queue  @kethinov

A request (again):  Can you make a patch that switches Fire Bouquet and Speed Up?  I feel like Gnome having two "enhancements" while Salamando has large amount of "damage" spells is unnecessary.  And while at it, make Fire Bouquet's <damage + atk down> to <SE = Petrify> (no, it doesn't do damage, although Petrify SE will do damage to non-bosses who are vulnerable to Petrify).  Spell name is Stone Smoke (the color of spell should be changed to something brown/grey).  This will make some of the enemies a bit more difficult, but that's alright (Mech Rider will be abusing the heck out of it, but at least he won't be casting Speed Up on YOUR party though).  That way, players would have access (other than Lunar Magic) to cause petrify to enemies (assuming Mud Saber replaces Stone Saber).  It won't be as powerful as Stone Saber either (since it's not Petrify + damage).  It should remain its 3MP cost though (better than Balloon, but not as good as Blaze Wall).

Actually, Stone Fume sounds better.  Or Petrify Fume.

[zoolgremlin]

@hmsong  Fire Bouquet (Salamnder) --> Frost Burn (Undine) -- Same graphic as Fire Bouquet, but blue color.  And causes Frost (another underused SE, which admittedly is not-useful SE in the game, since you can't follow up with melee).

<sigh>  Forgot to mention that I really adore this idea, except for the Frosty part (EDIT:  Actually, I've had an idea about that, but it might not be that good.  More later...).  Had to look back through half of the thread, just to prepare a list of the most fascinating ideas.

This one would give extra reason to switch Energy Absorb away from Undine...

zool, the "App. ROMHacker" (NOPE! ):
   Look, milady, being a vampire does not fall within your Mana Domain!  Leave that to the much-vaunted "King of Mavolia"!
Undine:
   Former "King of Mavolia".  <hands on hips> 8>
zool:
   Go swim in the corner... yoooou've been a naughty girl!  >_>
Undine:
   Awww... ;_;
Shade:
   Hehehe... I hasten to add that turning creatures into snowmen is a ludicrous way to curse one's enemies! 
Undine:
   Shut up you old BAT!! 
Shade:
   Come on over to my castle... and make me! 

That's enough amateur comedy script from me, though... -_-

The idea would take quite a bit of implementation, for reasons already stated.  But hey... much obliged for inspiring me!  Albeit to very bad jest... 

@hmsong:  Or Petrify Fume.

Just out of interest, Trials of Mana uses Stone Cloud as the name for a damaging-spell that also (rarely) causes Petrify.  Strange name, but not too different from what you're suggesting... 

@Mr. X  1.  Captain duck and hell hound staying strong till the end with the firenado and the powered up engulf.

        2.  No love for the Lich huh?

I am all in favor of both of these.  Although, in the case of Mr. Thornytoes, I could do at least a few things myself, that could help Dark Lich's (almost) hopeless case.  But more on that a little later, it is unfortunately my time for bed.   

See you all again soon... 

[hmsong]

@zoolgremlin

Aha (nervous laugh).

Anyways, I scrapped Fire bouquet --> Frost Burn idea, because of two reasons:
1. I couldn't find an Undine spell (among Primm's pool) that will go well into Primm's Salamando's spell pool.  Having said that, your HP Absorb <--> Fire Bouquet is an intriguing idea, but Salamando absorbing HP seems... weird.  You may have to make a 3-way trade (Luna?).
2. Fire enemies using Ice attacks (such as Spikey Tiger) seemed... weird, and vice versa.

There are several reason why I thought Fire Bouquet <--> Speed Up was a good idea (some were mentioned above):
1. Among Primm's spell list, Gnome has two enhance spells (why would Gnome have Speed Up?), and Salamando has two attack spells (too redundant).  Those spells switching places would actually work well.  It's for the same reason why I liked Herbal Boost -- Lunar Boost and Moon Energy (they both enhance attack -- no need for Luna to have both).
2. With the addition of Turbo's Mud Saber, there's no mean for Players to inflict petrify SE (other than Lunar Magic).  I wanted something that can do that.  It's also possible to keep Stone Saber, and make the new Gnome's Fire Bouquet into a <Damage + Mire> spell -- let's call it Dirt Nap or Grave Flare ("one foot in the grave", geddit?).
3. Those spells trading places won't make enemy behaviors weird.  In fact, it'll enhance them, in good ways.  Mech Riders, Ghoul, and Chess Knight (vanilla has Speed Up) gaining a petrify spell doesn't seem very out of place (I esp didn't like how Mech Rider ends up reflecting Speed Up to your party).  At the same time, Spikey Tiger and Imp (vanilla has Fire Bouquet) having Speed Up doesn't sound bad either -- Spikey Tiger's melee gets enhanced (along with all his melee skills, this enhances his Fire Breath, which is a long range melee skill), and Imp has two more fire spells (Fireball, Explode) and Cure Water.

Just out of interest, Trials of Mana uses Stone Cloud for a damaging-spell that also (rarely) causes Petrify.  Strange name, but not too different from what you're suggesting...

Yeah, I think SD3 has that.  But Stone Cloud seemed... so... unsatisfying name.  Besides, the Fire Bouquet graphic didn't seem all that fitting with the name Stone Cloud.
September 26, 2019, 09:12:01 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
@zoolgremlin

Thank you for making the documents.  I am using that a lot to play around the game.

One question.  In [Monster Treasure Drop Table], you indicated for the 3rd byte:

In full decimal calculation, this means that there is a maximum of 25% probability, of the Drop value being Rare  (0-16dec=Rare, and 17-63dec=Common).

How do I do that?  For example, I tried to manipulate the odds of rare drop from Rabite (vanilla is 08 10 F8).  The vanilla drop rate is 08, and the rare drop rate is F8 (which according to SoM Drop Editor is ~11%).  So... how do I make the rare drop to 25%?  I tried the following:

Code: [Select]

@OFF $D03A50
RAW 40 10 D0
Didn't seem to affect the rare drop (killed ~50 rabites, only got 3 rare drops).  Any idea what I'm doing wrong?

[PerryR]

Very cool project, I will soon test the mod 

[Queue]

Version 2019-09-27:
https://ufile.io/gm7t3yug

Changes:
- Changed Lava_Wave_-_Engulf to modify the Fire Gigas to use Fire Bouquet instead of Lava Wave
- Added Kethinov's Firenado hack (it replaces Exploder); needed some reworking to play nicely with other spell changes so may undergo further revision following his feedback
- Added Kethinov's Multiplicative Change Form hack (incompatible with Alternate_Transform_List)
- Added preliminary version of hmsong's Spell Balance Overhaul (feature name subject to change if hmsong prefers something else)
- Added hmsong's Balance\Mimic_Box_Dragon_Type
- Added hmsong's Alternate_Transform_List (incompatible with Multiplicative_Change_Form)
- Added hmsong's Alternate_Shape_Shifter_List
- Fixed mistake in Spell_System_Extensions reimplementation of Evil Gate; it was doing full damage when multi-target cast
- Possibly fixed Lunar_Magic_-_Celestial_Cascade Mimic Box transformation not hiding target's weapon; needs testing (and to make sure it doesn't change their attack power)
- Changed Paralyze replacement status effect to display "Quagmired" on the stats screen without Relocalized (still just "Mired" otherwise since Relocalized generally has dry literal terms in place of made up words)

Technical Changes:
- Added \0 global constant for use as a string terminator with TEXT in place of the event system \end
- Added two more chunks of data to Overwrite_Unused_Data

Note: Some new additions are Off by default; I haven't had a chance to playtest them and I'm not yet positive I'd personally use them.

Also: I really need a break from the spell stuff. I have a couple other things I really want to do, but constant spell stuff has kept me from them. For example, I really want to mess with turning the Goblin Village into a usable path to Gaia's Navel, but that'll likely take an entire week's Secret of Mana hacking time. I also have some ideas for improving how Turbo Mode interacts with AI since I've recently been digging through AI when working on spell stuff and seen some potential, but that'll also need multiple day's SoM time for research and experimenting.

hmsong, I got baseline versions of some of your stuff in this version (no changes to spell recharge times yet); don't hesitate to post changes you want made to them. What's there are rough drafts for you to review.

[Mr X]

Firenado costs 0 mp, which I guess isn't supposed to

[Queue]

Oh yeah, whoops. I had set it to 0 while I was testing it. D'oh. That'll obviously be fixed next release.

[zoolgremlin]

Well, I gotta say... this new Android I got yesterday works like a dream!  I regret not upgrading sooner...

I came back from the City absolutely used up, almost, and had NO energy for the project, nor was I in any fit mood.  Not too sure about using the forum on a cellphone, so just one thing quickly, then I'll come back later:

@Queue  Good to see you again, and many thanks for the latest update. 

I was half-anticipating that the "spell stuff" would end up taking over the project, damn... There's no shame on your part, feel free to go in your own direction for a while.  Glad to see "Quagmire" made it into the ZPS... 

Okay.  Time for my morning cuppa tea... it probably will take a while to fully recover from the fatigue of yesterday.  Not the fault of the project or anyone in the thread, RL stuff took over for a bit... worse luck. 

See you all soon, for more of the good stuff.
September 27, 2019, 09:10:21 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)

hmsong:  How do I do that?  For example, I tried to manipulate the odds of rare drop from Rabite (vanilla is 08 10 F8).  The vanilla drop rate is 08, and the rare drop rate is F8 (which according to SoM Drop Editor is ~11%).  So... how do I make the rare drop to 25%?  I tried the following:

          @OFF $D03A50
          RAW  40 10 D0

Didn't seem to affect the rare drop (killed ~50 rabites, only got 3 rare drops).  Any idea what I'm doing wrong?

Sorry to keep you waiting, I really needed sleep, by the time I got back from the City, where my RL friend lives.  S***, what an intense day, she's like... the Duracell bunny.  You know, "keeps going and going and going and..." <long sigh> 

Anyway, the most I can tell you for now is that I got the explanation about byte-0x02 wrong, in the Monster Drops Table.  Everything else is 100% correct, we just need to work out the real maximum chance of a Rare Drop.  Which I thought I had, but NOPE!  I am going to load the Turbo ROM up now, and test with a hex-editor various values for byte 0x02, with the Rabite.  The forest West of Potos is ideal for this, soooo... please stand by.  The real answer is coming soon... 

hmsong:  Anyways, I scrapped Fire bouquet --> Frost Burn idea, because of two reasons:
     1.   I couldn't find an Undine spell (among Primm's pool) that will go well into Primm's Salamando's spell pool.  Having said that, your HP Absorb <--> Fire Bouquet is an intriguing idea, but Salamando absorbing HP seems... weird.  You may have to make a 3-way trade (Luna?).
     2.   Fire enemies using Ice attacks (such as Spikey Tiger) seemed... weird, and vice versa.

I have been considering very carefully the idea of a three-way (or other multi-way/s) trade with spells, which I will get to explaining once I've figured out the Rare Drop chance issue.  But I'm thinking I should put that in a Private Message... Queue has requested a break from spell-system reprogramming.   

[Queue]

Oh, feel free to talk about spell stuff, I just want a break from actively working on it myself, so like, you can propose whatever, but unless you can make the changes yourself, I likely won't get to them for a while. If someone else implements said changes and posts the ZPS code (or at least an IPS) I'm fine with importing / integrating.

[zoolgremlin]

@Queue  Okay!  I will keep what you say in mind, and may Comment further on spell-system-hacking later.  I have been working on a list of tweaks that I believe can be integrated into the ZPS further on, but naturally the list doesn't have to be complete by today, or anything like that.  First, let's have a prototype to look at, and we can perhaps go from there.  It's definitely a long-term thing... 

Just took an extended break from my desk to clear my head a little more, I'm all fired up to test Cap'n. Rabite and his good crew The Buck Teethaneers, for the issue regarding Rare Drop chance.  Back soon with a report on that and... other matters of intrigue on the "high seas".  Yaaarrgh...