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Author Topic: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191120  (Read 103427 times)

zoolgremlin

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
« Reply #460 on: September 24, 2019, 01:10:08 am »
@hmsong:  It is indeed, a Vanilla bug.  Which might possibly happen in other places, but right now I can't recall...  :)
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hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
« Reply #461 on: September 24, 2019, 01:11:04 am »
Vanilla bug report (maybe?):

In the mountain near Sage Jekt (or whatever his name is), when you enter the mountain, the background is full of trees.  Even when you get all the way to the top, the background is still tree.  However, when you enter the Sage cave and exit, the background is all of sudden sky.  I'm not entirely sure if this was intended or not.  I think Square tried to do Sky background, but screw up somewhere.

September 24, 2019, 01:14:08 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
@zoolgremlin

I tested the Luna/Dryad weakness.  Even after the patch, the enemies are not weak to the opposite element.  Sure, when I do Analyze on the enemy (ex: Marmablue), it says that it is weak to Dryad, but Burst does the same damage as 100PWR Gem Missile.

zoolgremlin

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
« Reply #462 on: September 24, 2019, 01:20:32 am »
@hmsong    Forgive me for asking, but are you sure you're casting Burst on a LUNA-Elemental monster?  Try Marmablue or the Werewolves.  Burst won't do double-damage unless the target has the Luna-Elem flag set.  I was able to do double-damage to a Lullabud with Lunar Magic (converted to be damage-only, so that it would work).  I like Queue's new name for it, my two ideas were Crescent Flash (which won't fit into Lunar Magic's Message Event String) and Crescendo, which does because I got it to work.  Ah, no matter.   :)

So the patch works.  Even if other aspects of the game don't... still a few of those left.  Yyyyeah, a few.  Well that's my story, and I'm sticking to it!  NOOOOT...!  ::)
« Last Edit: November 06, 2019, 10:38:41 am by zoolgremlin »
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hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
« Reply #463 on: September 24, 2019, 01:24:08 am »
@zoolgremlin

Yup.  Tested it just now.  Burst on Marmablue.  Just to check that I applied the patch, I did Analysis on Marmablue, and indeed, it says it's weak to Dryad.

See for yourself.  I made my Freeze to 100PWR by:

@OFF $D02C5A
RAW   64

Then, compare to Burst.  They both do about the same damage on Marmablue.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 01:29:47 am by hmsong »

zoolgremlin

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
« Reply #464 on: September 24, 2019, 01:48:49 am »
@hmsong  Hmmm, okay!  In that case... IIIII'm not sure how to answer the question.   :(

I know that the [Luna_And_Dryad_Weaknesses] patch worked for me.  Perhaps somebody else in this thread, who's interested in the project, working on the project, will have an idea about that.  Has anyone else noticed the patch not working for them?  Please let us know if you have some spare time later on... there's no hurry about it, though.  Thank you all in advance if you can do this, no shame if you can't...  :beer:

EDIT:  I've had the idea for renaming Revivifier to Miracle Star, to sort-of account for its new "Turn Undead" function, and make it more obviously related to the Cosmos and its inexplicable nature (wishing to save ally from the Reaper, eg., and finding out it actually works!).  Thaaaat's... not really something anyone NEEDS to do, though.  Just a nice thought I had...

I don't think Miracle Star would fit where Revivifier's Message Text String resides.  But it would fit elsewhere, if it was something anyone wanted to add.   :huh:

@Queue  Many thanks for the latest iteration.  We're seriously lucky to have you here, aaaand... I hope you realize that.  :laugh:
« Last Edit: October 30, 2019, 05:15:26 pm by zoolgremlin »
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kethinov

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
« Reply #465 on: September 24, 2019, 01:57:49 am »
- Implemented Lunar_Magic_-_Celestial_Cascade; large changes to behavior based on mixture of suggestions, 3 instead of 8 random effects, all useful and offensive instead of the vanilla mess (its code needs to be optimized but wanted to get something out for testing)
- Implemented Lunar_Magic_-_Mana_Cost_Reduction; halves mana cost from 8 to 4, arguably fair for vanilla or modified Lunar Magic

Man, you are making it hard for me to deconflict our hacks. ;)

I just tested this. Looks like the three effects are:

1. Inflict status effects on target
2. Do damage
3. Transform enemy into a Mimic that always drops a chest(!)

Nice work!

Unfortunately when I overlay my "Lunar Magic Boss Gravity Attack" hack atop this that I released mere hours before you released this, it crashes the game. :(

I think it would be cool to combine our enhancements. Yours against regular monsters, mine against bosses.

Though the MP cost presents a problem. You're taking it in the opposite direction as me, and my gravity attack on bosses is too overpowered to cost less than 10 to 12 MP.

I don't think increasing the cost to 12 MP reduces the utility of your enhancements to Lunar Magic. The main utility is that third feature: guaranteeing a chest. That's such a powerful ability that I think a high magic cost and a 2/3 chance of getting some other effect is worth it.

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
« Reply #466 on: September 24, 2019, 02:03:33 am »
@zoolgremlin

Miracle Star sounds VERY grand.  Way too big name for a 61PWR spell.  Then again, it ignores DEF, so maybe.  I'll need to play around with it.

Wait, so you applied the Weakness patch, and you changed one of the non-Luna spells to 100PWR (or reduced Burst's power to 43 or 61 or something), and then compared the damage they both do to Marmablue?  And they resulted in significant difference?  Assuming the spells had the same power and level.

Huh... weird.

@Queue, could you please check?



September 24, 2019, 02:06:19 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Man, you are making it hard for me to deconflict our hacks. ;)

I just tested this. Looks like the three effects are:

1. Inflict status effects on target
2. Do damage
3. Transform enemy into a Mimic that always drops a chest(!)

WHOA!!!  Really?  Mimic drops the original monster's chest at 100%?  Hot damn!  Gotta check this out.

September 24, 2019, 02:44:52 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Tested:

I LOVE IT!!

Burst does exactly what I want it to do.  Truly excellent. 

But the real show-stealer was Lunar Magic.  That was crazy awesome (it retains the random factor, but it also changes things so that the original enemy drops the chest at 100% time).  I only tested it on the weak enemy, but it did:
1. Causes Balloon + Poison (which is pretty similar to Engulf, but better)
2. Causes Petrify.
3. Does damage (I can't tell how powerful it is, but I assume it's Luna elemental).
4. Changed into Mimic, that drops the original monster's chest.

I feel like there should be All Stat Down (Atk, Def, Acc, Eva), but 5 possibilities may be too much.

Also, can you check if Burst is effective against Marmablue?  It doesn't seem like it.  So either Burst is not Dryad element, or Marmablue is not Luna.  I applied the Luna/Dryad weakness patch too.  Maybe Luna is effective against Dryad, but Dryad has no particular strength on Luna?
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 05:02:50 am by hmsong »

zoolgremlin

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
« Reply #467 on: September 24, 2019, 03:03:01 am »
@hmsong  You're very close, I changed Burst's PWR to 108, and left it alone otherwise.  Afterwards I changed Lunar Magic to damage-ONLY, and raised its PWR to 108.  Casting both against a Lullabud, or any Dryad-affiliated monster, caused Lunar Magic to do double-damage, and Burst to do half-damage.  Casting both against a Marmablue, switched around those two effects, exactly as I predicted.

Soooo... hmmmm.  This is very strange, I can't see why [Luna_And_Dryad_Weaknesses] would be working for me, but not for you.  Some other factor is involved, but if we don't know which factor, and we don't know whether anyone else has seen this problem, we can't fix it straightaway.

Sorry about that.  Let's see what Queue and the others have to say, if anything.   :(

On the "bright" side, glad to hear you like the name.  Lemme see if I can fit it in my own module.  Will probably have to put it in unused Vanilla space, like Herbal Boost, Shadow Saber, and whatnot.  That'll take some figuring out... <whew>

@Queue    EDIT: It's occurred to me that Lunar Magic could stay at 8MP, given that it's a lot more favorable to the players, when cast by the Sprite, than it was before.  But kethinov and I may be alone together in thinking that.... hmmmm.  Ah well... <shrug>
« Last Edit: September 29, 2019, 10:12:10 pm by zoolgremlin »
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hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
« Reply #468 on: September 24, 2019, 03:58:48 am »
@zoolgremlin

Quote
@hmsong  As a matter of fact, I changed Burst's PWR to 108, and left it alone otherwise, then afterwards I changed Lunar Magic to damage-ONLY, and raised its PWR to 108.  Casting both against a Lullabud, or any Dryad-affiliated monster, caused Lunar Magic to do double-damage, and Burst to do half-damage.  Casting both against a Marmablue, switched around those two effects, exactly as I predicted.

Wait, so when you were comparing Luna and Dryad magics (same power and level) to the same enemy (either Luna or Dryad), the effective element did 4 times the ineffective element?  Hmm.

I just checked with the new update, and Burst did regular damage on Marmablue (instead of double).  Sigh.  Something is wrong.

Can anyone else verify?

zoolgremlin

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
« Reply #469 on: September 24, 2019, 04:18:20 am »
EDIT:  You can safely skip past this Comment.  It used to contain a long drivelling monologue about how the Elemental Wheel works in SoM.  Contrary to what I thought, NOBODY was confused about that!  I would've Deleted the Post outright, but I don't see an option for that.  So... my bad.   :-\

Mana Tree:  Continue on... Shall I save your game?  (Yes/No)

       Me:  NOPE!  Just lemme go kill a few more Griffin Hands, I need a new helmet.   :D
« Last Edit: November 01, 2019, 09:23:25 am by zoolgremlin »
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hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
« Reply #470 on: September 24, 2019, 04:27:45 am »
@Queue

I forgot if I asked this, but... when you do the Herbal Boost patch, does the Revive do Luna damage?  I'm looking at the codes, but I don't see anything like that (then again, the code was... complicated, so I may have missed it).  And that would mean that Revive will do Dryad damage... I can't even test this, because there are no undead/evil enemies that are Luna/Dryad element.


@zoolgremlin

Yeah, I know that.  I worded things wrong.  Allow me to rephrase.  What I meant to say was, "So you verified that the effective element did 4 times the ineffective element?"

And you verified it.  Hmm...

zoolgremlin

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
« Reply #471 on: September 24, 2019, 04:39:49 am »
@hmsong  I did, but that was either last week, or the week before.  It's only been, I think a month and a bit, that I've been... "assisting" with the project.  Ummmm... Something might have changed since then, but with "silly me" being endlessly curious (Can I do it?!  Yes I can.  Does anyone know about this thing?  No?  What a damn shame!), my "investigations" have not returned to that point, just yet.  So I don't know what changed, to have that exact effect you've noticed.   :huh:

I'll look again once I get out of the Underground Palace, having kicked Fire Gigas' ass.   :laugh:

Quote
hmsong:  I can't even test this, because there are no undead/evil enemies that are Luna/Dryad element.

As a matter of fact, Wolf Lord is both, but this is not commonly known.  Even I only found this out, not that long ago. <-- EDIT:  NOPE, NOPE, NOPE!  That's WRONG!  What a mistake to make, <long sigh>

Makes you wonder how a game that is simple to play, can be so fiendishly difficult to fully comprehend.  Is that just... the way it always is?  Possibly.  How many games has any one person tried to gain encyclopedic knowledge about?  I suppose not all of them, at least.  :-\
« Last Edit: September 26, 2019, 08:53:13 pm by zoolgremlin »
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hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
« Reply #472 on: September 24, 2019, 04:52:35 am »
As a matter of fact, Wolf Lord is both, but this is not commonly known.  Even I only found this out, not that long ago.  Makes you wonder how a game that is simple to play, can be so fiendishly difficult to fully comprehend.  Is that just... the way it always is?  Possibly...  :-\

How did you find that out?  According to the Monster Data Table, Wolf Lord is just Shade element (and Undead/Demon).
Quote
43 18 01 32 3B 40 5A 3C 63 64 00 63 43 01 20 <-- Undead/Demon
10 72 10 23 01 00 1F 00 B9 B9 0C 57 60 09
^ = Shade element

zoolgremlin

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
« Reply #473 on: September 24, 2019, 05:03:06 am »
Ahhhh... so it does!   :o

And it's correct!  Hmmmm...  This page here:

RPGClassics, Shrines:  SoM Enemies

I misremembered it as saying both Werewolves and Wolf Lords were Luna-affiliated, which would make more sense IF it were true in the game, but it ain't, and the page doesn't say that.  Change the 1 to a 4 (0x0001 - 0x0100), in your Quoted example, and that will make him both.  You can do that for any monster, either already Undead/Demon, or made to be that way (change the other Bit to a 2 [0x0010], if it isn't already so).  Sorry about that... definitely my bad, this time.   Good call!   :-[
« Last Edit: September 28, 2019, 12:52:29 pm by zoolgremlin »
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hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
« Reply #474 on: September 24, 2019, 05:42:37 am »
Well, that's a neat page to have around.  I totally forgot about RPGShrine.

Actually, that page still exists?  I first saw RPG Shrine back in the late 2000s, so it's been more than a decade.  Someone is maintaining that page well.

zoolgremlin

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
« Reply #475 on: September 24, 2019, 05:50:46 am »
@hmsong  Of all the old SoM-related pages, that might be one of the few that is.  I still remember how crappy most of them were, even in their best form.  But that's just ranting for the sake of it, so I'll stop myself there.   :laugh:
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kethinov

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
« Reply #476 on: September 24, 2019, 06:07:33 am »
I am determined to keep my expensive but awesome fractional damage spell against bosses relevant somehow, so I now present a third option...

First there was "More Useful Evil Gate" now superseded by Queue's very cool shadow saber.

Then there was "Lunar Magic Boss Gravity Attack" now possibly superseded by Queue's very cool upgrades to Lunar Magic. If there is not consensus to raise the spell cost of Lunar Magic to combine Queue's hack with mine, then they can't be effectively combined.

So I'm taking one more stab at this... introducing: Firenado. This hack implements an Evil Gate-style fractional damage attack called Firenado for Salamando that replaces the Exploder spell. However, unlike Evil Gate, the Firenado will work on bosses (without Salamando resistance) too though at the cost of more MP to prevent it from being overpowered since this spell will almost always do 999 damage against bosses.

Pics:






Download "Firenado" here: https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4681/
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 09:43:49 pm by kethinov »

zoolgremlin

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
« Reply #477 on: September 24, 2019, 06:49:21 am »
@kethinov  Oy, steady on, man!  If you don't mind me saying so, you don't really have to convince ME about the percentage-attack being relevant (whether at last or again)!  I was already on board with that on the first iteration...  :happy:

That's what I meant from before, a review from me would've pointed out how much better Evil Gate is, when applying your patch.  At least if I'd gotten around to putting a review down!  I use [More_Useful_Evil_Gate] all the time, it's brilliant!

That being said, though... <deep breath>:



I like the other two versions of it as well!  Now I have THREE ways to do the percentage-attack!  Hot diggity DAAWWWWG!!   :laugh:

Thanks for the work you've done, making these hacks.  I really appreciate it, and will eventually review as many of your patches, as I have given a test-drive.  Hope you have a good day or night, have a tall frosty one from me (sort of).    :beer:
« Last Edit: September 26, 2019, 12:05:22 pm by zoolgremlin »
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hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
« Reply #478 on: September 24, 2019, 07:41:36 am »
@kethinov

I can only speak for myself, but few things:

1. I like Evil Gate.  Although 12MP is a bit much, I prefer the usage of Evil Gate.  Yes, Shadow Saber is more useful, blah blah.  But I want to have a spell that uses Evil Gate graphic.  Just by that is worth it.  Having said that, if you want to make it more useful, then make it damage against everything that is not Undead/Demon, rather Shade.  That should make that thing quite a bit more useful (dunno if that's possible though).  Evil Gate v1.2, as it were.

2. Again, I can only speak for myself, but I like Queue's Lunar magic more.  Just the fact that it can make the drop 100% is just so so much worth it.

3. This is pretty good idea.  After all, Explosion graphic is used by both Dark Force and Burst (even the spell select icon is the same as Dark Force).  Explosion will not be missed.  Does that mean enemies (Captain Duck) will be using that with impunity?  Yeesh.  That's gonna hurt (in a good way).  But more importantly, will it work on the Orb in Fire Palace?  Explode is required to pass through in the Fire Palace.

Of the three options, I like #3 the best, assuming it works on the Fire Palace's orb.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 07:50:35 am by hmsong »

kethinov

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 190923
« Reply #479 on: September 24, 2019, 07:48:48 am »
Does that mean enemies (Captain Duck) will be using that with impunity?

Yep.

will it work on the Orb in Fire Palace?

It should, but I haven't explicitly tested that yet.