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Author Topic: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191210  (Read 137338 times)

kethinov

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #840 on: October 29, 2019, 10:24:00 am »
The end result should be that it'll take you like 5 minutes to change the art assets for a ring menu icon. Like, I think it'd literally take me 5 minutes to cram that icon into the game, but I'd much rather other people be able to.

Thanks, that'll be handy. I figured it was pretty easy to do, especially since we already know the addresses of the graphic and palette data. I never learned the tooling around this even with the mucking around with icons I did for Herbal Boost, Hellfire, Freezing Rain, and Faerie Coconut. In the case of Hellfire and Freezing Rain, I just swapped existing icons and changed palette pointers. For Herbal Boost, I painstakingly edited the hex for the original graphic until I found what bytes control those few pixels to change the colors of those lines. Never learned the pattern and didn't use any of those fancy SNES graphics editing tools floating around out there. For Faerie Coconut, I didn't create the replacement graphic, nor do the encoding. And it used the same palette as the original graphic. Speaking of which, one question remains though. Do you know how to reassign the palette to use the dummied out palette address? Item palettes don't seem to work the same as spells as far as I can tell, unless I'm missing something.

Unfortunately, this'll have to be a replacement (or at least a conflict with the coconut). And for the record, my vote is for the coconut (medical herb is garbage, long live the magical herb).

I agree. I prefer the Coconut + Magical Herb as well, but it seems reasonable to support the Stardust Herb variant for people who have different taste.

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #841 on: October 29, 2019, 10:30:41 am »
Queue Hmm I have to think further regarding the grave bats, but I was thinking to put them inside the Fire Palace but since it's a bright place maybe outside during night makes more sense. And yeah it's a shame the desert loses it's charm after the sandship portion.

I always think of the Polter Chairs of a monster that the Eline used her magic to turn them alive (in the ending  two Polter Chairs following her).

Also hmsong the Ninja enemy in the Emperors castle was casting Dust Flare on himself. Either that or the Mystic Book casted Dust Flare on the Ninja enemy (cause the two were outside my screen coudln't notice who casted what), so might check that out.



October 29, 2019, 11:04:13 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
The Lime Slime does cast Shadow Saber on one of your party members. Hm I wonder how possible it is to replace that spell of his with an attack like Acid Bubble, it's the same attack used by the Blue Spike.


Also not sure if it was mentioned before, I remember in the vanilla the Dreaded Slime being able to cast much more spells than acid rain, if you cast for example any other offensive spell but shade he would cast that same spell on you. Could be useful in the future, for example casting Burst (highest tier spell) after an Acid Rain could be pretty deadly. Of course it doesn't need all those spells, not like your characters have elemental weaknesses.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2019, 05:54:11 pm by Mr X »

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #842 on: October 29, 2019, 07:04:09 pm »
Also hmsong the Ninja enemy in the Emperors castle was casting Dust Flare on himself. Either that or the Mystic Book casted Dust Flare on the Ninja enemy (cause the two were outside my screen coudln't notice who casted what), so might check that out.


October 29, 2019, 11:04:13 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
The Lime Slime does cast Shadow Saber on one of your party members. Hm I wonder how possible it is to replace that spell of his with an attack like Acid Bubble, it's the same attack used by the Blue Spike.

Yeah, I noticed that too, and already requested to Queue to mitigate the Dark Ninja's Speed Up (now Salam's Speed Up) and Shadow Saber (NPC Evil Gate) from various monsters, including Gremlin and National Scar (not Fiend Head -- my bad), as well as Lime Slime.  I also made requests to kethinov/Queue to make Hellfire and Useful Evil Gate into multi-target attacks if they're used from bosses (since there's no multi-target penalty).  Good job noticing that.  I didn't even know most of these until I was looking at the monster behaviors.

October 29, 2019, 07:10:28 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)

I agree. I prefer the Coconut + Magical Herb as well, but it seems reasonable to support the Stardust Herb variant for people who have different taste.

Yeah, I figured most people would prefer Coconut + Magical Herb (after all, kethinov created them because of such thing).  I guess I'm one of the weird exceptions.  I prefer Stardust Herb and regular Medical Herb, assuming Faerie Walnut restores the original 50MP.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2019, 07:31:38 pm by hmsong »

zoolgremlin

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #843 on: October 30, 2019, 11:49:58 am »
@hmsong & Mr. X:  If I'm not mistaken, Gremlin can only cast Evil Gate when it's current HP drop below 25%, or an absolute value somewhere in that vicinity.  If you give it no chances to attack, by whatever means, it's highly unlikely you would see it cast that.

National Scar can only cast Evil Gate after casting Wall, I think?  Will check that later, might as well prepare the template Documents for these two Monsters, and Dark Ninja, next in the Monster AI folder.

Lime Slime (or possibly Shade himself, lurking in the background unseen) uses any of the three Evil-Element spells seemingly at random, must also check that.  Even though Dispel Magic is only situationally useful... well, we all know by now my feelings about the level of "intelligent" design in this game.

Not to worry, though.  I've read that FF6 has even more bugs, imbalances, and exploits.  Ah GameFAQs... that place taught me so much.   :laugh:
« Last Edit: October 31, 2019, 05:52:13 am by zoolgremlin »
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Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #844 on: October 30, 2019, 04:23:32 pm »
Secret of Mana Icon Editing 101

I'll do this in parts and probably keep editing this post to add additional steps as I write them.

You'll need 5 programs handy to make all the necessary changes:
- the ZPS Patcher and Turbo ZPS file to decode and re-encode the graphics
- a SNES graphics editor, I'd recommend Tile Layer Pro (https://www.romhacking.net/utilities/108/ + https://www.romhacking.net/utilities/361/)
- a hex editor, I'd recommend HxD (https://mh-nexus.de/en/downloads.php?product=HxD20, the portable version probably)
- an image editor that can open your reference image and show you the RGB color values for a given pixel (Windows Paint should be fine)
- a calculator that can use numbers in hexadecimal (Windows Calculator should be fine)

Before starting, I'd recommend saving a copy of your Turbo config file, since using the patcher to decode / encode graphics will require unchecking almost every feature in the patcher.



File Preparation

So, for the first step, open the ZPS Patcher and load SoM Turbo.zps and the vanilla Secret of Mana ROM.
- Uncheck every section header ([Combat], [Magic], [Items], etc.).
- Make sure to leave (Helper_Script) On.
- Go to the [Graphics] section, and turn the section back On but uncheck every feature within the [Graphics] section.
- Now turn On Decode_Menu_Icons and Decode_Combat_Art.
- Click Apply.

If done correctly, the output file should be the same size as your vanilla Secret of Mana ROM. Rename this file (maybe to something like "Secret of Mana, Decoded Art.smc"). If you save a copy of this decoded art ROM you can keep reusing it as long as you don't save over it, which avoids repeating this step in the future.

Now make a copy of "Secret of Mana, Decoded Art.smc" (maybe to "Secret of Mana, Decoded Art, Unaltered.smc") so that it can be reused in the future. The exact file names don't matter as long as you keep track of which file is what.



Icon Editing

Now open your SNES graphics editor. I'll be using Tile Layer Pro (referred to as TLP from here on) in my example screenshots, but other similar utilities should offer the same features.
- Open "Secret of Mana, Decoded Art.smc" (or whatever you named it).
- Change the format to 3BPP; in TLP's menu bar it's: View > Format > SNES 3BPP.
- Go to file offset 0x128400; in TLP's menu bar it's: Edit > Goto... (Ctrl+G) (entered without the 0x hex prefix).
- You should now be looking at the beginning of the ring menu icon art. Like so:


Notice at the bottom of the program where it says "Offset: 00128400" which is the "Goto..." value you entered. That's the offset of the upper left corner of the scrollable area. If you scroll around, that "Offset: ????????" readout will update to to whatever offset is currently on display at the upper left.

Also notice that the icons all appear to be sliced in half, where you see their top half next to their bottom half. This is just how they're organized in the ROM. In a couple steps I'll explain what you can do to see them as a whole to make them easier to work on.

Next, scroll the viewable graphics area down to the "coconut" graphic that we'll be replacing. You can press up / down to scroll by a single row, page up / down to scroll by the vertical size of the window, and left / right to shift the tiles left and right by one. You want the "coconut" to wind up at the far upper left of the window. By my count, it took 42 down presses. If you get lost, you can use "Edit > Goto..." with offset 0x12C300 to jump straight to the "coconut":


Next, click and drag the first 4 tiles that make up the "coconut" from the viewable graphics area to the "Tile Arranger" window. This doesn't change anything in the ROM, it's purely a scratchpad area for you to place tiles on to see how they look like next to each other. Something like this:


Also notice the areas in the "Palette Editor" window I outlined in bright orange. The block of 5 colors are the ones you can draw the icon with, and the last color is your "transparent" color. Do not use the first or seventh color; SoM's icons are 5 colors + transparent.

Important: setting colors here will not affect them in-game; this palette is just for your use while editing the icon data. Editing an in-game palette will occur at a later step.

Now change the colors in the "Palette Editor" window to match the colors we'll use to draw the Stardust Herb. Because we're not using the first or seventh color, I'd recommend changing them to something garish (e.g. 255 0 255) to remind ourselves not to use them. Left click on a color then change what color it is using the 3 horizontal scroll bars or by typing numbers into the three numeric boxes. I'd suggest organizing the 5 colors from lightest to darkest (most vanilla SoM icons organize their colors this way); whatever order you pick, write it down because you'll need to set it the same way later if you want the colors to be correct in-game. The 8th color represents the transparent pixels and depending on circumstance sometimes I set it to be a bright color, sometimes dark; for now, set it as black (0 0 0). After setting all 8 colors, update the "Tile Arranger" window by using the TLP menu: Palette > Transfer to Arranger.


To get the colors, I opened the little Stardust Herb imagine in Windows Paint, eyedropper'd each color and picked "Edit colors" to see what color it was. The 5 colors I got were, from lightest to darkest:
Code: [Select]
192 248 248
144 240 208
 88 200 152
 16 128  80
 80  72  64

Click on the upper left tile of the icon in the main scrollable window; it should now be showing in the "Tile Editor" window. While you can select tiles to edit via the "Tile Arranger" window, a bug in TLP means if you alt-tab away and back, the current tile in the "Tile Editor" window will revert to the last selected tile in the main scrollable window. In the "Palette Editor" window, you can left click on a color to set it as the left click color, and right click on a color to set it as the right click color, similar to most graphics editing programs.

Now lets draw the Stardust Herb, using the reference image as a guide:

Notice I just had the reference image in the background, with an 8x8 selection as a guide line for the edges of the tile.

Select the next tile in the main scrollable window and repeat. You should see the icon update in the "Tile Arranger" window as you make changes. Repeat for all 4 tiles:


Now save your work (File > Save, Ctrl+S, the little floppy disk icon, File > Save As..., whatever, lots of options, just make sure you save it).



Tile Data Preparation

Open the ZPS Patcher and load SoM Turbo.zps and "Secret of Mana, Decoded Art.smc" (the ROM that you just edited and saved). The CRC32 field will show as red, but that's okay for this process.
- Uncheck every section header ([Combat], [Magic], [Items], etc.).
- Make sure to leave (Helper_Script) On.
- Go to the [Graphics] section, and turn the section back On but uncheck every feature within the [Graphics] section.
- Now turn On Encode_Menu_Icons and Encode_Combat_Art.
- Click Apply.

Note that you're using the "Encode" options this time to re-encode the art data. If done correctly, the output file should again be the same size as your vanilla Secret of Mana ROM. Rename this file (maybe to something like "Secret of Mana, Encoded Art.smc").

The re-encoded art ROM isn't needed longterm, and should be replaced any time you make changes to the decoded art ROM.



Tile Data Extraction

Now open your hex editor. I'll be using HxD in my explanation, but other similar utilities should offer the same features.
- Open "Secret of Mana, Encoded Art.smc" (or whatever you named it).
- Go to file offset 0x12C300; in HxD's menu bar it's: Search > Goto... (Ctrl+G) (entered without the 0x hex prefix).
- In the hexadecimal side of the window, select 0x60 bytes, from 0x12C300 through 0x12C35F; it will be 6 rows (assuming normal 16 byte rows).
- What you'll have highlighted is the 4 tiles of the vanilla "coconut" art that you edited in TLP; each tile is 24 bytes, so 24 * 4 = 96 = 0x60.
- Copy your selection to the clipboard; Edit > Copy (Ctrl+C).

If editing a different icon, you can get the correct file offset from TLP by scrolling the main viewable graphics area so that the art you intend to edit and extract is in the upper left corner (and then reading the "Offset: ????????" readout at the bottom of the window).

What you do next depends on if you're setting up for an IPS patch or a ZPS patch.



Tile Data Insertion - IPS

Presumably you have a ROM you're making edits to to generate an IPS against the vanilla ROM. Open said to-be-edited ROM in your hex editor.
- Go to file offset 0x12C300.
- In the hexadecimal side of the window, select 0x60 bytes, from 0x12C300 through 0x12C35F; it will be 6 rows (assuming normal 16 byte rows).
- Paste with overwrite; in HxD's menu bar it's Edit > Paste write (Ctrl+B).
- The hex editor shouldn't give any warning about file size changing; if it does, figure out what you're doing wrong.
- Save.

Note that for the paste step, if you've lost what's on your clipboard, go back to the previous "Tile Data Extraction" step, and re-copy the intended data. HxD has a tabbed multi-document interface so you may as well keep the re-encoded art ROM open. If you're worried about mixing up which file you're working on, HxD can open files in read-only mode so you could open all files but the final target to-be-edited ROM in read only mode to remove any risk of clobbering your work and wasting time.



Tile Data Insertion - ZPS

Correctly setting up feature compatibility is a bit complex; Shadow_Saber can be used as a reference for how to structure an icon edit correctly.

For the data that was copied to the clipboard in the previous "Tile Data Extraction" step, that will be used as the "encoded" data (see &(mods)\Magic\SpellSystemExtensions\Shadow_Saber\encoded for a template).

Since the icon edited in this tutorial was at file offset 0x12C300, the equivalent ROM address in ZPS format is $D2C300 (0x12C300 + $C00000). So:
Code: [Select]
@OFF $D2C300
RAW E7 C3 FF D3 99 E7 F5 A6 C9 AB 2C D3 D1 78 87 F6
RAW 70 8F FF 66 9F B7 10 FF FF FF FF FF FF FF FF 87
RAW FF A7 3B C7 73 1D E3 DD 49 B3 79 75 8B BD 39 C3
RAW EC AB F4 FD D3 E8 F3 DE E1 FF D9 E7 FF D7 EF FF
RAW EF FF FF FE FF FF FF FF CD 0D F3 FD A1 7F FF 0D
RAW FF DF 8F FF DF 9F FF 9F 1F FF FF 3F FF FF FF FF

I broke it up into 16-byte lines, and in the Turbo ZPS file, you may notice I organize icon data like so:
Code: [Select]
@OFF $D2C300
RAW E7C3FFD399E7F5A6C9AB2CD3D17887F6
RAW 708FFF669FB710FF FFFFFFFFFFFFFF87
RAW FFA73BC7731DE3DD49B379758BBD39C3
RAW ECABF4FDD3E8F3DEE1FFD9E7FFD7EFFF
RAW EFFFFFFEFFFFFFFF CD0DF3FDA17FFF0D
RAW FFDF8FFFDF9FFF9F1FFFFF3FFFFFFFFF
This is because each 8x8 tile that makes up the icon is 24 bytes, so those spaces split the data up to visually show the breaks between each tile. It has no effect on the result, but provides slightly more info to a human looking at the data (to know where a given tile starts and ends).

Now you need to repeat the previous "Tile Data Extraction" step, but on "Secret of Mana, Decoded Art.smc" instead. The copied data will be used as the "decoded" data (see &(mods)\Magic\SpellSystemExtensions\Shadow_Saber\decoded for a template).
Code: [Select]
@OFF $D2C300
RAW E7C3D399F5A6AB2CD178F670FF66B710
RAW FFE7C9D3878F9FFF FFFFFFFFFF87A73B
RAW 731DDD497975BD39FFFFFFC7E3B38BC3
RAW ECABFDD3F3DEFFD9FFD7FFEFFFFEFFFF
RAW F4E8E1E7EFFFFFFF CD0DFDA1FF0DDF8F
RAW DF9F9F1FFF3FFFFFF37FFFFFFFFFFFFF

If you look closely, you'll see the first two bytes of each tile is the same between the encoded and decoded versions. It's actually all the same bytes, just shuffled around. The technical write-up I'll do later will explain the graphics encoding and why you had to run the ROM through the ZPS patcher just to make art edits.



Due to post length limit, this post continues here: https://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php?topic=27890.msg384918#msg384918
« Last Edit: November 03, 2019, 02:30:57 pm by Queue »

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #845 on: October 30, 2019, 07:37:50 pm »
@Queue

Okay, done.  Very thorough instruction.  At least, up to the part you told me.  Also, how did you post a pic here?  I thought you couldn't (which is why I always have to hyperlink).  Kethinov was able to do it too.  How?



@zoolgremlin

Oh, boy.  I'm going through your documents, and they're very impressive.  I love it.  I'm gonna make few edits here and there to enemy behaviors.  I hope.  Not sure if that'll work though.

kethinov

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #846 on: October 30, 2019, 08:02:03 pm »
Queue used imgur to post pics.

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191030
« Reply #847 on: October 31, 2019, 01:41:49 am »
Version 2019-10-30:
https://ufile.io/7nmyj982

Changes:
- Updated hmsong's Dust Flare
- Added Magic\Stone_Saber_-_Icon_Color based on hmsong's icon recoloring, separated from Dust Flare (this doesn't work yet, fixed for next release)
- Updated hmsong's Enemy_Type_And_Element_Changes
- Verified and updated kethinov's Watts_In_Haunted_Forest version number to 1.2, then further optimized the event NOPs, sorry -_-
- Verified and updated kethinov's Sheex_-_Master_Ninja version number to 1.2
- Added kethinov's Banished From Potos on the Honor System (as Revisit Potos)
- Updated kethinov's Remove_Empire_Castle_Gate to 1.3
- Modified Lunar_Magic_-_Celestial_Cascade to not work on the Tasnica Boss when combined with Sheex_-_Master_Ninja
- Hellfire now renames Heck Hounds (to Hell Hounds)

Technical Changes:
- Further analyzed event commands and added 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6-byte event system NOPs to global defines; these drastically outperform the vanilla 1-byte NOP (01), and very slightly outperform the older 2-byte NOP I had been using (2D09). Unfortunately I couldn't find a 1-byte NOP without side effects / corner-case bad behavior (53 was so close). They are as follows:
Code: [Select]
/2D90 \nop2
/42000F \nop3
/38802D90 \nop4
/4200F02D90 \nop5
/4B0000002D90 \nop6
The 2D90 in nop4, 5 and 6 are never parsed and are included (as a copy of nop2) to make byte searches easier.
- Unfortunately, this surely changes a couple of your hacks kethinov (like Sheex is a Master Ninja, where the 5 2D09 in a row are now 2D90), but there's zero reason to rush out and update any of them, this is an academic improvement.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2019, 03:46:31 pm by Queue »

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191030
« Reply #848 on: October 31, 2019, 03:26:11 am »
Woo, update!

I found several things that may need fixing:

- For some reason, [Stone_Saber_-_Icon_Color] is not working.  I turned off Mud Saber, but the Stone Saber menu color is still brown (instead of grey).

- For Emperor Gate, the new Javelin chest releases 2 javelin orbs (up to 5th orb, aka 6th weapon), instead of 1.  I'm guessing that's because most people use [Weapons_Progression_Balance].  If possible, could you make something for people who don't use it?

- For Dust Flare description, some recent updates are missing (the code is updated though):
Quote
- Imp      Fire Bouquet (one enemy) --> Flame Saber (self)
- Basilisk   Gem Missile --> Dust Flare
- Dark Ninja   Speed Up (Gnome) --> Speed Up (Salam)

Also, please add to Dust Flare:
- Mech Rider 3   MP = 38 --> 66
Code: [Select]
@OFF $D028ED ' Mech Rider 3 MP (38 --> 66)
RAW 42
« Last Edit: October 31, 2019, 05:18:09 am by hmsong »

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191030
« Reply #849 on: October 31, 2019, 06:01:32 am »
Even 66 MP is too little at that point in the game for Mech Rider 3, MP absorb+Shadow Saber and his MP goes to 0 really fast, and my armor is too powerful so all I do is swing my weapons as I chase him around till he falls.

zoolgremlin

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191030
« Reply #850 on: October 31, 2019, 06:52:30 am »
Quote
Queue:  zoolgremlin, you were remembering when I fixed a bug in a bugfix that was making the item ring choke on 12 icons, it wasn't a vanilla bug. So don't worry, you've not gone crazy, there was just a tiny bit more context.

I've sometimes heard of the two defense systems as a threshold system and resistance system, for subtractive versus percentage. Those are definitely not universal terms though, just giving perspective.

@Queue  I ran out of time to say this before, but I appreciate your explanation of these two things.  I dunno how, but you managed to sense that I was confused over what kethinov was saying about the Item Ring slot-limit.  Also, I didn't know that these terms were used for subtractive vs. percentage-based damage/power reduction.  Your insight served me well, thanks very much for that and the new update.  I still marvel at how far the Turbo Project has expanded knowledge of and improved the original game... it's uncanny!   :woot!:

I also like the idea of being able to re-access the desert area before the shemozzle on the Sandship, although I wouldn't have thought to ask for that before Mr. X did.  Up to you whether you want to do that or work on other stuff.  Possibly even stuff for a game other than this one, since I recall quite clearly that you were interested in hacking other ROMs someday.   :)



As regards other stuff, gonna take a look back at the last 10 days of the thread shortly.  To see if there are any questions I can answer, or things that could go in my new "Bucket List", heh.  Back soon, cheers everyone.   :beer:
« Last Edit: November 01, 2019, 11:19:33 am by zoolgremlin »
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hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191030
« Reply #851 on: October 31, 2019, 06:54:24 am »
@Mr X

You bring up a good point.  Since Mech Rider 3 is technically dead (Thanatos killed him), should I make him undead?  That way, he'd be immune to MP Absorb and such, assuming that patch is enabled.

EDIT:  Cross that idea.  You already fight a demon/undead boss right before Mech Rider 3.  No need for another demon/undead boss.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2019, 07:00:52 am by hmsong »

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191030
« Reply #852 on: October 31, 2019, 07:15:54 am »
Actually that would make some sense. I remember a while ago reading somewhere mentioning how Thanathos created the Grim Golem by sacrificing Geshtar, so in a sense Mech Rider 3 is an undead enemy. And the Emperor and his underlings are involved with the Mavolia/Underworld hence them being these demonic creatures when using their full powers.

Sheex - a demonitc plant like creature
Hexas - self explanatory
Grim Golem - an undead, living fighting machine created by Thanathos.
Dark Lich - self explanatory

Hmmm more thinking needs to be done, just my initial thoughts atm, you brought up a good point hmsong

October 31, 2019, 07:44:17 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Hm as I fought Hexas just now her physical attack for some reason engulfed one of my characters. Never seen that happen before.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2019, 07:44:17 am by Mr X »

zoolgremlin

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191030
« Reply #853 on: October 31, 2019, 09:08:10 am »
Okay.  I checked everything, aaaand... there's only a couple of things I can Comment on meaningfully, the rest I just don't know any more about than what's been said.  A pity...  :-\

Quote
Mr. X:  Yeah all of them. I feel like Fire Gigas would be difficult enough even with single target spells and he would have two means to inflict engulf, one you could be able to block, the other through magic (lava wave) which you can't avoid

hmsong (regarding above):  I just gave Flame Saber to Fire Gigas (makes him cast Flame Saber to your party) -- all other Gigas do that.


This was said quite a while ago, but I like the idea.  My own thought on the issue was to make Lava Wave inflict Quagmire instead of Engulf, since Blaze Wall (NPC) and Flame Saber exist to inflict Engulf, along with Boss Specials like Fire Breath.  I can change Lave Wave to do that myself, since it's a trivial fix.  No idea if anyone else would want that.

I'm sure glad Sq.-En. didn't think it best to make ALL of Fire Gigas' physicals Engulf targets, or do that with any other enemy.  That would've been INSANE.  But generally, their games are not made to be rock-hard to play and complete, that I know of.  Except Trials of Mana, which was Japan-only back in the day.



Quote
hmsong (regarding the Wolf Lord AI-bugfix):  GENIUS!!  That'll solve everything!

Ah well, hehe...  :-[.  I got lucky, since the Documentation by regrs, Enker and zhaDe already had the info I needed to make that fix.  I just needed to attain understanding of it... but if you tried it out and it worked for you, good to hear.   ;)



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teahouser (regarding HP multipliers in Adjust En. Diff/Easy-Hard Mons):  I'm currently using 7x enemy and boss HP for my new game plus playthrough and really enjoying it.

Ah, so I'm not the only one, sorry I didn't get back sooner about this.  Welp, I've taken up the challenge of finding a way to make Monsters/Bosses more of a challenge than in Vanilla, that can do stuff that kethinov's [Adjust_Enemy_Difficulty/Easier_Or_Harder_Monsters] wasn't designed for.  It's quite an undertaking but I don't mean to rubbish kethinov's work, it's brilliant.  Just want to see if I can go even further with what he started, with that mod package.   :)



And finally...

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Mr. X:  Actually that would make some sense. I remember a while ago reading somewhere mentioning how Thanatos created the Grim Golem by sacrificing Geshtar, so in a sense Mech Rider 3 is an undead enemy. And the Emperor and his underlings are involved with Mavolia/the Underworld, hence them being these demonic creatures when using their full powers.

Yeah... it does make sense, especially in light of the fact that the entire World of Mana series, centres around protecting the Material Realm, and probably the Spirit Realm where the Sprites and the Mana Goddess originate/reside, from the malign influence or schemes of Mavolia.  At least, I think that's the case... I've never heard of any other themes explored in the series, but I've only played two games in it and read about three or four others.   :-\

My personal view, if anyone is interested, is this.  There's really only thing stopping Mech Rider 3/Undead Geshtar/Grim Golem (I like that name) from being given the Undead/Demon flag, the fact that the game already has so many other Enemies also flagged as such.  Which nowadays I find to be a bit on-the-nose, despite what I said above.  I know that Mavolia is the prime source of evil happenings and potentially world-ending events in-canon, but there's no reason why the WoM series HAD to be like this.

I only just thought of this now, but if I had to guess... maybe the reason it's about that one thing, is that Square-Enix had no real faith in the money-making potential of it compared to Final Fantasy.  Either that or they thought gamers are universally too dumb to know any better, and would buy it regardless.  Or their parents would.  <sigh>

Spank you, Squaredudes.  Spank you very much.   >:(



Okay, I should stop there before I start hating on Sq.-En. for ages again.  It's better for everyone that I not overthink it.   :laugh:

The only other thing I can think of to say right now is this.  I've never read very much about World of Mana canon, so that might explain why it seems so threadbare, compared to that of FF.  I've had the notion for the last month, to envision the Mana World as being basically composed of five Realms, as follows:

  • Mavolia/Underworld, self-explanatory I think.
  • A Realm that is connected to Mavolia directly, but is distinct from it.  The souls residing there are merely wayward or tortured by sins they committed in (a past) life.  Instead of being irredeemably lost to Evil, like Mavolian demons or the undead.  The Purgatory to Mavolia's Hell.  But Mavolia is always trying to exert control or influence over it, as the two Realms allow free travel between each other, with no restrictions.

    If that exists in canon, I don't know of it, but FuSoYa'a VWF patch has Geshtar mention taking the PCs down to Hades with him.  Maybe by Hades he means something like this, or maybe FuSoYa got confused.  Maybe he assumed that the Underworld was the same as that in Greek Mythology, where the name Hades comes from.  If so, I believe he was mistaken about that, but no matter.
  • The Material Realm, where the events of Adventures of Mana, Secret of Mana, and Trials of Mana, all take place.  I don't know what the setting of Legend of Mana is.  Basically the place that Mavolia is always trying to take over or destroy,
  • A Realm that is the opposite of Hades, where righteous souls go to after death in the Material Realm.  The Heavenly Light Realm that is in opposition to Hades' Purgatory, and Mavolia's Hell.  Never heard of this in-canon, if I were to put that in a fanon work, I would call it Avalon, from the Arthurian legends.
  • The Divine Garden Realm, where Sprites, the Tribe of Mana, and the Goddess Herself reside.  I won't go into a long diatribe about that right now, buuuut... maybe something like that exists in-canon, or maybe it doesn't?  If I put that in fanon, I would call it... hmmm.  How about... Eden?   ::)

That's all I'll say for now, until someone asks another question or an issue needs reporting.  Hehe... apparently I'm a "reporter" now, that's a lot of titles I've given myself!  I'm only joking, by the way.  See you all again soon...  :laugh:
« Last Edit: November 02, 2019, 04:48:38 pm by zoolgremlin »
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Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191030
« Reply #854 on: October 31, 2019, 10:52:23 am »
zoolgremlin
Quote
This was said quite a while ago, but I like the idea.  My own thought on the issue was to make Lava Wave inflict Quagmire instead of Engulf, since Blaze Wall (NPC) and Flame Saber exist to inflict Engulf, along with Boss Specials like Fire Breath.  I can change Lave Wave to do that myself, since it's a trivial fix.  No idea if anyone else would want that.

I'm sure glad Sq.-En. didn't think it best to make ALL of Fire Gigas' physicals Engulf targets, or do that with any other enemy.  That would've been INSANE.  But generally, their games are not made to be rock-hard to play and complete, that I know of.  Except Trials of Mana, which was Japan-only back in the day.

I wont mind that change, would be at least another spell inflicting that status, tho that might well be done by Earth Slide, or both, or earth slide does the quagmire while Lava Wave the poison. Wont mind either of those changes, engulf is fine too, as long as that spell wont be used for multi target purposes early on the game, late game I am all for that, sure.

October 31, 2019, 11:04:10 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Quote
It does make sense, especially in light of the fact that the entire World of Mana series, centres around protecting the Material Realm, and probably the Spirit Realm where the Sprites and the Mana Goddess originate, from the malign influence or schemes of Mavolia.  At least, I think that's the case... I've never heard of any other themes explored in the series, but I've only played two games in it and read about two others.   :-\

My personal view, if anyone is interested, is this.  There's really only thing stopping Mech Rider 3/Undead Geshtar/Grim Golem (I like that name) from being given the Undead/Demon flag, the fact that the game already has so many other Enemies also flagged as such.  Which nowadays I find to be a bit on-the-nose, despite what I said above.  I know that Mavolia is the prime source of evil happenings and potentially world-ending events in-canon, but there's no reason why the WoM series HAD to be like this.

I only just thought of this now, but if I had to guess... maybe the reason it is about that one thing, is that Square-Enix had no real faith in the money-making potential of it compared to Final Fantasy.  Either that or they thought gamers are universally too dumb to know any better, and would buy it regardless.  Or their parents would.  <sigh>

Spank you, Squaredudes.  Spank you very much.

Mech Rider 3 could be weak to Dryad for example, or Shade, while still being an undead enemy, having the Shadow Saber/Moon Saber and MP/HP Absorb have the reverse effect on him, only the Hero would be unaffected by casting shadow saber on him so he still could make use of that. Or no weakness at all like Hexas.

He still wouldn't prove to be any sort of challenged tho, even if that gets applied, but oh well.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2019, 11:04:53 am by Mr X »

zoolgremlin

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191030
« Reply #855 on: October 31, 2019, 12:05:06 pm »
@Mr. X  Good to see you again, a quick reply for your previous Post.  Wasn't expecting to see you so soon, but here you go!   :laugh:

I haven't gotten around to writing up a full mod for doing all of my own Spell ideas, would've done it sooner but then Shadow Saber, Dust Flare/Speed Up swap, kethinov's Freezing Rain, and his Cure Water/Remedy combo, Hellfire, Celestial Cascade, and finally the Change Form tweak came up.  Not that I don't still like my own ideas, they just don't seem all that great compared to what's already been done.

Changing Lava Wave (or any other Spell) to inflict Quagmire or other Status Defect is a quick and simple tweak, like most of my initial experiments.  Just haven't gotten around to sharing it on the Prototype Shortlist.  I might write it up now, and leave the big long-term stuff alone for a night.

Forgot to mention Inferno Barrier as being a third Spell to inflict Engulf, but I guess that goes without saying in this forum.    :D

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Mr. X:  Mech Rider 3 could be weak to Dryad for example, or Shade, while still being an undead enemy, having the Shadow Saber/Moon Saber and MP/HP Absorb have the reverse effect on him, etc.

Him being weak to Shade (so Lumina-Elemental) makes sense thematically, given that Thanatos used his necromancy on Geshtar's body, a gruesome fate if ever there was one.  'Cause he was the one guy whose only (known) crime... was being 100% loyal to his Emperor and Country!  If it hadn't been for "Ol' Bonesy" and his irrepressible wrath against all of Creation, Geshtar would've died a noble and natural death.  Instead...  :o

(Hehe... I will never weary of poking fun at Thanatos.  Could he possible get MORE stereotypically evil?  NOPE!   >:D)

The only minor objection I have to making more enemies any Element other than Cosmic (Luna) and/or Holy (Lumina), is that both are hugely under-represented.  But that's the Catch-22 here... without adding more enemies to the game, having all eight Elements equally represented among enemies, while still making sense thematically, is a bit of a pipe dream.

It's a nice thought, using the expanded ROM space to add more Monsters, possibly Bosses, to Secret of Mana.  Dunno if I'd be the right guy for the job, if it came down to doing it.  But we can still tweak what's already in Vanilla for a while, so that's alright then.   8)

Makes me wonder again how much more gameplay/graphics content was planned for the Nintendo PS version of... NO! NO!  Blecch... I'm done trying to figure out why game companies do what they do, as the answer is usually "money-money-money-and-more-money".  <shake head>

Don't worry, I haven't forgotten your ideas about Dark Lich... they're on my Bucket List.  Hehe... "Bucket List".   :laugh:
« Last Edit: November 01, 2019, 11:17:42 am by zoolgremlin »
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Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191030
« Reply #856 on: October 31, 2019, 03:30:44 pm »
Quote from: hmsong
I found several things that may need fixing:
Whoops, forgot to copy over a FILE <Stone_Saber> directive. Fixed it for the next release. Sorry, didn't mean to slap your name on something broken.

Added the Dust Flare change and updated the description.

That said, I'm a little worried that some features are going off-target. It's why I moved the Stone Saber change out of Dust Flare. Boss stat changes being bundled in with spell changes, weapon orb changes bundled in with area access changes, and so on, concern me. It's sneaking in changes that aren't absolutely related to the primary feature and aside from user confusion (I turned on X feature, but Y changed?!) it's also tedious to manage compatibility-wise for me. I have to remember that feature X changes Y, so when another feature wants to change Y I can set up the compatibility fixup between them. It's not hard when there are only a handful, but when there are dozens it starts to get annoying.

My next goals are to rewrite the QuickSpell_Hotkeys graphics loader to use vanilla icon data instead of having a separate list that I have to manually make compatible, and to replace Easier_or_Harder_Monsters with a feature that does the scaling at runtime so it'd be automatically compatible with all these other desired enemy stat changes.

Edit: Oh, and added a little more to the icon editing guide.

Edit2: Pretty sure it's safe to make enemies be multiple types, and some elements can be combined without confusing the analyzer spell. Just thinking aloud regarding the Mech Rider 3 type discussion.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2019, 04:22:45 pm by Queue »

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191030
« Reply #857 on: October 31, 2019, 05:55:57 pm »
That said, I'm a little worried that some features are going off-target. It's why I moved the Stone Saber change out of Dust Flare. Boss stat changes being bundled in with spell changes, weapon orb changes bundled in with area access changes, and so on, concern me. It's sneaking in changes that aren't absolutely related to the primary feature and aside from user confusion (I turned on X feature, but Y changed?!) it's also tedious to manage compatibility-wise for me. I have to remember that feature X changes Y, so when another feature wants to change Y I can set up the compatibility fixup between them. It's not hard when there are only a handful, but when there are dozens it starts to get annoying.

Ahh.  I see.  I thought about making all the Dust Flare related problems into the Dust Flare package.  I increased Mech Rider 3's MP, because Dust Flare made him use up his MP quickly.  But I can see why changing every little thing into a package deal (ex: orb changing in a opening up a new location patch) can be weird for some players and you.  If you think editing MR3's MP stat here is weird, then leave it out.  I'm going to include that in [Enemy_Stat_Changes].  Sorry, and thanks.

MR3 type changing (into solid + undead) would not be part of this though.  That belongs in Enemy Element/Type Changes.  And speaking of which, indeed, making him into multiple type shouldn't be problem.  After all, I did that to Mana Beast (well, it was element change, and kethinov did that first).  I need to test few things, but if someone wants me to, I'll change it (maybe I'll change all the four-heavenly kings).

I will soon re-upload [Enemy_Stat_Changes] and [Enemy_Behavior_Changes].  You probably didn't upload my previous post, because you thought it was incomplete, and you were right.  The next one I release will be complete.  Behavior change was a lot of work (I tried to change the frequency of spell casting -- I hope it works).  I'm double checking my work before I post, hoping I didn't screw things up somewhere.  I couldn't do much with the boss behaviors though -- they are MUCH harder to change things, at least, with my current skills.

Also, I'd appreciate it if you continued your Stardust Herb explanation.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2019, 03:04:35 am by hmsong »

zoolgremlin

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191030
« Reply #858 on: October 31, 2019, 06:13:01 pm »
@Queue:  Good to see you again, my friend.  I hope you do not think it too presumptuous, if I call you that.    :-\

Just one quick Comment from me now regarding this:

Quote
Queue:  Edit2: Pretty sure it's safe to make enemies be multiple types, and some elements can be combined without confusing the analyzer spell. Just thinking aloud regarding the Mech Rider 3 type discussion.

I have not yet tried making enemies multiple Creature Types, but it's good to know that there's probably no harm in it.  Timbo wants to do the same thing with World of Balance, if I recall correctly.   :)

As for multiple Element-Types on enemies confusing the Analyzer spell... errr, yes.  I hadn't yet gotten around to putting that in my Documents, but this was the "very good reason" I hinted at in at least one of them.  As far as I am aware right now, that is the only minor problem associated with making any enemy more than one Element.  I have noted that casting Analyzer on the Mana Beast, when one of the Turbo-integrated mods made it all 8 Elements at once (I forget which one), caused the Message Event to lie and say that it's weak against all 8, when in fact it resists all 8.  Because, as you are probably aware, Element resistance is always checked before weakness, and if resistance is found, the weakness check is skipped and the program branches out of the routine.

But that's enough yakety-yak from me right now.  Take care...  :D

LINK:  Secret of Mana Information (Vanilla)
« Last Edit: November 01, 2019, 11:51:03 am by zoolgremlin »
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hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #859 on: November 02, 2019, 06:49:05 am »
Not to worry, though.  I've read that FF6 has even more bugs, imbalances, and exploits.  Ah GameFAQs... that place taught me so much.   :laugh:

Is there some kind of project like Turbo patch for FF6?  I know there's a whole bunch of ips's in RHDN, but besides that.