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Author Topic: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191210  (Read 138323 times)

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #820 on: October 27, 2019, 03:16:38 am »
Queue I thought of another idea for the day/night cycle, what do you think about having the Goblin Lords appear night time in the upper land? They spawn also Ma Goblins too, which is nice and they wont disappear entirely from the game, serving as a last obstacle there.

October 27, 2019, 03:34:35 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Btw hmsong, you may have not been fond of the idea of fortress enemies having over 1000 hp but remember that earlier enemies seem to have even more hp than some fortress enemies (except fiend head). Like Captain Duck,turtlance for example over 500 hp, more than the tsunamis, wolf lord, Whimper, Terminator, Master Ninja. Those are just two examples, there may be more.

Tho again this is just my suggestion, it's not the end all be all. I will try to do a list of important enemies and what I would change for them in the future:

Armored Knight (Gnome) - 430 HP, Mud Saber, Defense Up, Level 6 Spells (High Physical def)

Dark Knight (Shade) - 600 HP, Shadow Saber, Dark Force, Level 7 Spells (High Magic Def)

Terminator (Lumina) - 1000 HP, Light Saber, Barrier, Lucent Beam, Level 8 Spells (high magic and physical def)

Dark Ninja (Non elemental) - 390 HP, Flame Saber, Burst, Level 5 Spells (being a ninja this family should have high natural evasion and hit rate

Dark Stalker (Shade) - 700 HP, Shadow Saber, Acid Rain, Dispel, Level 7 Spells (high evasion, same logic)

Master Ninja (Non elemental) - 1200 HP, Stone Saber, Sleep Flower, Herbal Boost, Level 8 Spells (high evasion)

With Dispel now removing herbal boost and Lucent Barrier, it's time to put it into use, by giving some powerful enemy or boss a spell like herbal boost which you would pretty much need to use it. And it makes things only fair, why none of them using it, now you can avoid that. These are just my first thoughts, what do you think about approaches like these?
« Last Edit: October 27, 2019, 03:36:49 am by Mr X »

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #821 on: October 27, 2019, 03:39:04 am »
Suggestion:

We should consider making Master Ninja immune to Lunar Magic - Celestial Cascade so that he can't be turned into a chest during the Tasnica fight.

Holy crap.  I did not think about that possibility.  Damn.  Indeed, this is something that needs to be mitigated ASAP.

Idea 1: Make that particular Ninja Master immune to Lunar Magic (other Ninja Masters are not immune to this).
Idea 2: Disable all magic during the fight.
Idea 3: Make the fight man-to-man fight between Randi and Ninja Master (make Girl and Sprite "leave" the party for this fight, and then rejoin after talking to the king).  Randi will have to rely on items for recovery.  Having said that, Randi can still be powered up beforehand to make the fight easier (Moon Saber, Lunar Boost, Lucid Barrier, etc).

I like #3 the best.  But I have a feeling that's going to be the toughest to do.  Worth it?
#2 is probably the easiest though.

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #822 on: October 27, 2019, 03:53:25 am »
hmsong I like that idea of a man to man fight, but yeah that seems like something that is very tough to do.

kethinov

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #823 on: October 27, 2019, 04:33:54 am »
Another bug: When applying Hellfire with Relocalized disabled, Heck Hounds do not get renamed to Hell Hounds.

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #824 on: October 27, 2019, 04:37:01 am »
Mr X

It's true that some pre-Mana Fortress enemies have higher HP.  However, they also have lower DEF/M.Def.  For example, Terminator only takes ~30 damage from Lv99 Randi using Lv9 Sword, whereas Captain Duck takes 200+ damage from the same thing.  Giving Terminator 1000 HP would be too ridiculous (yes, I know there's his weakness to Shade magic, but I simply brought him up as an example).  Also, I'm not using Turbo's "No Stamina Attack" thing, which delays fights quite a lot, and I want to move on with the fights, not get stuck fighting a monster for a long time.  I know some people are into the whole "I want some challenge -- I want to fight a guy who can last".  I can respect that.  That's what Queue's "Harder Monster" patch is for.

As for the spells, I don't have the ability to "give" enemies an extra spells.  I can only replace the spells in existence, not put in a new one.  For example, Terminator only has 2 spell (Lucid Barrier, Lucent Beam).  Therefore, I can't give him Light Saber, unless I get rid of one spell.  Worse, if I replace Lucid Barrier with something else (Mud Saber), he'll just continue to cast Mud Saber on himself, because I think there's a code that checks if he has Lucid Barrier on (I don't know where that code is).  There's a lot of things like that, and modifying those are usually beyond my current ability.

In addition, some abilities don't make sense.  For example, as I said before, if I were to give Dark Knight a Shadow Saber (replacing Wall), he'll cast it non-stop without ever attacking, since there's a code that checks for Wall.  If I were to replace Dark Force with Shadow Saber (while keeping Wall), then Dark Knight will just reflect his Shadow Saber to cast it on you.  And so on and so forth.

Don't get me wrong though.  I like the idea, but they're simply beyond my ability.  I'd love to modify some of the "conditions" of monster spell usage.

Having said that, I replaced some spells here and there to minimize the conflicts (for example, I gave Herbal Boost to Turtlance, and I may think of more of those).  And changing monster's Spell level is indeed a good idea.

Btw, vanilla had a monster that used Moon Energy -- Marmablue (only to allies, and not himself).  It also uses Lunar Magic.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2019, 06:44:38 am by hmsong »

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #825 on: October 27, 2019, 04:40:10 am »
Ok fair enough, and thanks for explaining how this all works hmsong

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #826 on: October 27, 2019, 05:43:46 am »
If anyone has any suggestions regarding behavioral changes, I'm all ears.  Please be specific (ex: Werewolf cures itself when it's injured, but instead, have him cast attack spells).

Currently, I'm looking into something:  If an enemy gets injured, instead of trying to cast Cure Water on itself, I'm gonna have it go berserk with attack spells ("Turning Red", so to speak).  Well, not all of them, obviously.  Also, I'm thinking of making some enemies cast Burst (the most powerful attack spell) upon near death (assuming it has a spell with a condition, "cast xxx when below yy HP).  I just updated Silktail, and it is the perfect example of that (it keeps casting Energy Absorb upon injury, and once its HP is below certain point, it'll cast Burst).

I wanna do more of that, but I'm not sure whom to give it to.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2019, 06:14:30 am by hmsong »

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #827 on: October 27, 2019, 02:35:47 pm »
Humorously, it'd probably be easier to make the Tasnica boss fight boy only than to disable magic for that fight (not even sure how I'd go about doing that), but likely making just that enemy immune to modified Lunar Magic is the easiest (though still probably will require some experimenting to find the best way to do so).

hmsong, I like your [Enemy Stat Changes] and [Enemy Behavior Changes] being separate, glad it turned out that way. In that regard, I probably need to peel some things out of your Dust Flare into their own features, like changing the Stone Saber icon color. My recommendation would be to not omit exploder enemy mana changes with the assumption that another patch will make the changes; if you're going to have something like [Enemy Stat Changes] that gives enemies useful stats, make it comprehensive.

On the flip side, a warning that changes to any stats affected by Easier or Harder Monsters is going to be a compatibility headache; it doesn't literally grab their health, multiply it by X, and put the result back, it has pre-calculated data based on vanilla stats, so if an enemy has 100 hp, you use Easier or Harder Monsters with 2x health, that enemy will explicitly be set to 200 hp, but if [Enemy Stat Changes] also sets them to 150 hp, the end result will either be a monster with 150 or 200 hp depending on which feature writes the value last, unless you specifically modify one or the other to take the other into account. When I finally get to other stat options for Easier or Harder Monsters (like MP) it'll get even worse.

Upon further investigation, the way the high level spell animations (or at least the Fire Bouquet one) changes the target's colors is madness, so haven't yet figured out how to change it (normal spells set a palette rotation range and the target's palette cycles within that range, high level Fire Bouquet has those values at 0 and is changing their colors some other way, possibly by directly overwriting their palette in video memory?).

Regarding Upper Land goblins, does the Upper Land have any goblins? I thought it was animals, moogles and the sprites, with the sprites having been wiped out. I'm inclined not to introduce goblins there unless there's a good reason for it (unlike, say, Kakkara Desert where they would conceivably come out of the Fire Palace at night).

kethinov, based on that Hydra room picture and you describing Safe Save State's pause as failing to unpause, I can only assume this is a specific emulator build (or hardware) that I haven't tested, because I've never had the Hydra room look like that, and while others have reported problems unpausing, I've never been able to reproduce that either (I took some blind stabs at failsafes to try and keep it from failing to unpause but it seems they weren't enough). Soooo, any details you can provide regarding emulator (or SNES hardware) version and configuration would likely be useful; if emulator, specific build may matter as I've tested all SNES emulators I know of and that should cover all of them, so it stands to reason that it's not just a matter of which emulator. If I can reproduce either or both I'm fairly confident I can solve them.

Regarding Hellhounds, oh right, Relocalized made the same change so I overlooked that. Uhh, hm, seems like feature creep to me (spell change also renames an enemy?) but I'll get that added.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2019, 03:30:44 pm by Queue »

kethinov

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #828 on: October 27, 2019, 05:44:42 pm »
I can't seem to get the pause softlock to happen anymore after doing a new build of Turbo. It's possible something I manually hex edited while making hacks and testing them on the last build caused it. But the Hydra thing has been happening in every build I've done for weeks now. I'm on Snes9x 1.60.

The reason for renaming Heck Hound to Hell Hound on Hellfire is if we're introducing the word "Hell" in one context, we might as well remove the censorship in the other context too. I originally named the spell "Firenado" so that it would square with "Heck Hound." I figure all or nothing.

New Hack: "Neko and Watts in the Pure Land"

This patch adds Neko and Watts to an out of the way late screen in the Pure Land so you can do some much-needed resupplying and weapon forging before fighting the last couple bosses. The new Neko offers the same item ring as the Tree Palace Neko.

Download: http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4766/

« Last Edit: October 28, 2019, 06:51:52 pm by kethinov »

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #829 on: October 27, 2019, 06:22:09 pm »
@Queue

Wow, I didn't think changing just Tasnica Master Ninja immune to Lunar Magic would be the easiest.  That's how much I don't know about programming.  Haha.

Indeed, I assumed [Enemy Stat Changes] would/wouldn't work, depending on which was applied last.  Having said that, I figured if my thing was applied first, and then Easier/Harder Enemies was applied, I figured the "vanilla" stats that Easier/Harder patch looked at would be my own.  I guess I figured it wrong.  Well, no big deal.  People can choose -- stat up few enemies (my patch), or stat up the whole monster world (your/kethinov patch).

Btw, if you were to put in MP in the Easier/Harder monster, would the max MP be capped at 99 or 255?  I'm pretty sure HP caps at 65525 (or whatever it was).

Oh damn.  I'm just making things very much pain for you for Dust Flare 3rd animation.  Sorry.  It's just... I have it so close.  It's almost complete.  This is the last thing that would "complete" this patch.  I can taste it.  I'd really appreciate it if you continued to work on this problem.

Mr X is the one who recently brought up the Goblins in Upperland at night idea, but I'm the one who mentioned it initially a couple of pages back.  As you figured, Upperland doesn't have any Goblins.  In fact, there's no goblins outside Gaia Navel.  Having said that, your Night Kid Goblin makes perfect sense, since Goblin Village is nearby.  But not in Upperland -- no cave, no village.  I initially mentioned it back then, because I just wanted to put "extinct" monsters somewhere in the game (idea which I eventually agreed with you that it doesn't make sense).  Besides, kethinov is working on that "extinct monster" problem, which I agreed would be a better idea.  I'm just gonna wait for his patch.  Hopefully, he makes two patches -- one for the Turbo (so no need for monsters from Empire Castle, Sunken Continent, and Pure Land), and one for the vanilla.

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #830 on: October 27, 2019, 06:49:14 pm »
Regarding Goblins, whoops, when going through the posts I mixed up whose post I was reading, sorry about that.

Enemy mana will probably cap at 255, I doubt anything in the game's code will break for letting them go over 99.

I may replace Easier or Harder Monsters with programmatic scaling (where the game multiplies the value when spawning the enemy, rather than modifying their stats in the stat tables), but I've not committed to that yet.

zoolgremlin

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #831 on: October 28, 2019, 10:39:42 am »
Hi again, everyone.  I would've been Posting and Replying earlier, but I couldn't get the webpage to load for me, much less login.  Some error message came up which I didn't understand, but the webpage might just have been down temporarily for maintainance.  That's bound to happen from time-to-time, with all websites.

So anyway... I still haven't fully resumed work on the Documents, but I have made a bit more progress writing custom mods for the ZPS format.  It's pretty straightforward to alter data tables, and the pointer tables needed to lookup values from those.  So why I had so much trouble altering spell names, when I tried it last month, I don't know.

My only guess about that is that I redid the pointer table for them incorrectly, or didn't put the \n value in the names when I should have.  I thought the \n was only needed for spell descriptions.  Those I can change with no problems, in a fashion similiar to Timbo's proposed changes for the SoM "World of Balance Project".  Spell names I haven't tried again with, since the previous abject failure.  But I could probably do that with the Spell Extension script, instead of what I tried before.

I really like what Timbo did with Relocalized in general, just can't stand a spell name like "Twinkly Barrier" (among a few other things).  I know the aim was for a more accurate translation, but that's too... "fruity" even for me.

Spoiler:
Damn Japan and its cultural obsession with "cuteness".  I doubt anyone needs that much "cuteness" in their lives, except... LITTLE GIRLS!   >:( >:D

Not to worry... I must be sure to thank Timbo for the spell name/description idea.  :)

The latest custom mod of mine is a trivial change to the Shop Data/Pointer Tables, similiar to what's been done before by Timbo and kethinov, but with a couple of twists.  I've almost finished checking it in-game, just Neko Wood Palace left.  So I haven't put the proposed mod in the Prototype Shortlist yet.  Also, I think it's best to separate the current set of mods into two Shortlists.  One for the 0000 series, one for the 1000 one.  Might renumber the mods as well.  It's a bit presumptuous of me implying sufficient talent, on my part, to do 10000 mods!    :crazy:

Thanks @Timbo and @kethinov for the Shop Data idea, since you thought of it before I did.   Especially you, kethinov, putting the Weapon Upgrade Pricing at the end of the buffer space was a masterstroke.  8)

There's a lot of interesting points that have come up, as well as a couple of things to ask about, but I'll wait for a bit and Post again later.  This is already a looong Post.  Between myself, Queue, hmsong, kethinov and Mr. X, the discussion is already pretty lively.  I wonder what it would be like with twice the number of regulars?   :o

Hope you all have a good one, back soon. 
« Last Edit: November 02, 2019, 05:09:14 pm by zoolgremlin »
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Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #832 on: October 28, 2019, 11:38:13 am »

Regarding Upper Land goblins, does the Upper Land have any goblins? I thought it was animals, moogles and the sprites, with the sprites having been wiped out. I'm inclined not to introduce goblins there unless there's a good reason for it (unlike, say, Kakkara Desert where they would conceivably come out of the Fire Palace at night).

You are right, there are no Goblins on the Upper Land area. While it makes more sense for them to be out there in Kakkara, I think they would be too weak by that point of the game, while on the Upper Hand, or at very least the same area where the Great Viper lies, they could pose a threat if you use the unique equipment patch, and they never appear again after the underground temple so those advanced Goblin enemies could probably make an appearance at some part of the Upperland. Moving the Grave Bats to the Fire Palace on the night time, what do you think?

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #833 on: October 28, 2019, 05:45:47 pm »
@Queue

Wow, as I was looking at enemy behaviors (in the 0x10 bank), I noticed lots of things I didn't notice before.  For example, Dark Ninja can cast Speed Up.  I did not know this.  Therefore, please include this in the Dust Flare patch (between Imp and Spikey Tiger):

Code: [Select]
@OFF $D08F7C ' Basilisk Gem Missile (pre) --> Dust Flare(post)
'RAW 01
RAW 04
@OFF $D092EC ' Dark Ninja Speed Up (pre) --> Speed Up (post)
'RAW 04
RAW 10



@zoolgremlin

Oh?  You've been talking to Timbo?  Since he hasn't updated his WoB page since March, I figured he dropped the project or something.  Or were you simply talking about the existence of his work?  I actually redid the shop (at least, the sold item rearrangement).  It was much easier than trying to make the shop compatible with Faerie Coconut shop.  I haven't posted anything here, because I'm working on something else too that uses that shop.  More on that later.



@Mr X

There are only 2 monster spots in the desert -- Spider Legs and Mad Mallard.  I think they're better used for Sand Scorpion and Robin Foot.  At least, IMHO.

October 29, 2019, 01:59:03 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)

@Queue, @zoolgremlin

Okay, kethinov and I are trying to create something similar to Faerie Coconut -- make a 12th consumable item.  In this case, Stardust Herb (casts Dispel on the one of the PCs).  Amazingly, kethinov already did that, as far as effects are concerned (he did it for Timbo's WoB, but he seemed to have disappeared, and I asked kethinov to release a separate IPS patch).  This beta patch kethinov created actually combines with Faerie Coconut patch.

We were able to solve all other major issues, except one... the menu icon graphic.  Obviously, the new menu icon (created by Timbo and ThanatosZero) works great for Faerie Coconut, but that doesn't go well with Stardust Herb.  So, a new icon is needed for Stardust Herb.  Kethinov already created the icon:

https://ibb.co/dkfcLDJ

The pic is tiny (according to kethinov, this size is necessary for things to work).  Sadly, he (nor I, of course) doesn't know how to apply this .png to the rom.

Could you help?  If you can somehow make something similar to [Faerie_Coconut_Replacement], it would solve everything.

Here's what kethinov said to me:

Quote
Regarding the graphic, I would recommend posting a new thread somewhere on the RHDN forums seeking assistance with encoding new graphics into the ROM, then link to the new thread from Queue’s Turbo thread so Queue sees it and can offer advice in the new thread if he has any suggestions.

I can get you started on some of the technical details though...

The graphic data for the unused item is located here:

D2/C300: FFFC FFFF F0FF FCE0 FFF0 C0FF E383 FCE7
D2/C310: 87F8 CE0F F0CD 0EF0 FF3F FFFF 0FFF 3F07
D2/C320: FF0F 03FF C7C1 3FE7 E11F 73F0 0FB3 700F
D2/C330: CD0E F0CE 0FF0 E787 F8E3 83FC F0C0 FFFC
D2/C340: E0FF FFF0 FFFF FCFF B370 0F73 F00F E7E1
D2/C350: 1FC7 C13F 0F03 FF3F 07FF FF0F FFFF 3FFF

The palette data is here:

D2/CED2: 1F33 5B2A 9529 CD20 280C (palette 95)

…and the palette data is unfortunately shared with Barrel.

I don’t know how to separate Barrel’s palette data from the dummy item’s palette data. The good news is there is a dummied out palette located at D2/D076: FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF FFFF (palette BF) that could be used to create a new palette if need be. But I’m not sure how to assign it to the dummied item.

It’s possible the pointer to the palette data is encoded in the graphic data blob above, but I don’t see anything in that blob that looks like a pointer to 12CED2 or to palette ID 95. It’s possible it does palettes based on offsets instead of addresses or IDs, but if so I don’t a pattern indicating that. Would take some work to figure it out.

In short, you can probably find a way to generate the graphic data from the PNG file I sent you using some kind of SNES graphics conversion tool, then write that code to 12C300 to see the new graphic, but the wrong colors will likely be applied because it’ll use the old Barrel/Faerie Coconut palette instead. Again though, I’m just guessing. What you need is someone who knows more about SNES graphics than me to advise you on this.

Quote
Yeah, wherever you post it I’d recommend posting the full context explaining what we’re trying to do and include the technical info I sent over. In general finding where to put things in the ROM is usually harder than figuring out what data to write, so we’ve got a good start on this. The hardest problem is solved.

All we need to know now is:

1. How to convert the PNG into graphics data. (Probably some point and click SNES graphics tool can help there.)
2. How to change the palette of the graphic from 95 to BF. (I have no idea what drives this.)
3. How to write palette data to D2/D076 that will match the colors in the PNG. (Probably pretty straightforward to figure out. Possibly some SNES graphics tool can help here as well.)

Honestly, I'm quite lost on how to approach this.  This sounds like something that's WAY above my weight class.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2019, 02:01:53 am by hmsong »

zoolgremlin

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #834 on: October 29, 2019, 02:43:00 am »
Ah, well I was about to start updating my Shortlist and other Documents, but looks like we have a few things that deserve my undivided attention for a bit.   :)

@hmsong & kethinov:

  • You asked me first about Timbo.  Let's see... no, he has never personally contacted me or discussed any aspect of ROMhacking with me in particular.  I'd be happy to do that, but as you have noted, he is not active in the forums right now.  Yes, I was speaking about the existence of his work, specifically the Relocalized patch.  Which changes quite a lot about SoM, except the gameplay which is my primary interest.  It's not entirely clear whether SoM WoB is still being worked on or not, only that the forum thread for it has been silent for a while.
  • As a corollary to the above, it would be quite easy to list all the things I do and don't like about Relocalized, even though I've only dabbled with it in-game.  The reason for that is that Relocalized has some documentation, including in the current Turbo release, so there is less need to test-drive the entire patch personally.  I try to avoid making long rambling Posts that only concern what I like and don't like, though.  As much as possible, since answering questions, and reporting on my progress with the GDrive Documents, is more helpful to others.  I think?   :laugh:
  • It occurred to me that you might want more details about your HP/MP changes proposed earlier, lemme know if you want me to Post about that again.   I'm all up for that, now that I can access the website again without difficulty.   ;)
  • Concerning the Stardust Herb proposal, I can at least say that I'm lovin' that new icon.  It's also great that the Herb patch would be fully compatible with Faerie Coconut, since I love that thing.  Not sure if you and kethinov intend to give the Medical Herb back its Vanilla function, though that does make sense.
  • The only minor difficulty I see with having this new item is the 12-slot limit on the Ring Menu.  I think it used to be that only 11 items, including stuff like the Flammie Drum, could be stored in the Item Ring, but Queue changed that to 12.  Probably by getting rid of the Trash Can slot that the Equipment Rings also use, since that's a waste of a slot anyway.  Perhaps not being able to stock all Consumables/Key Items in the game could be looked at as an acceptable tradeoff, like it works in Trials of Mana.  That game has WAY more Consumables than this one, if you've ever played it.
  • Regarding the last point, about putting the new Herb icon into the ROM, that sadly brings me back to something I mentioned earlier.  Sort of... I don't have any real talent with digital art, but putting in someone else's art would be different to creating my own, of course.  The problem is that I have no idea how Icon Graphics Data is indexed in the ROM, or how the Pointer Tables for them work.  So that means... you could write the Icon Data into an empty ROM space quite easily, but actually getting the game to Load it into the Item Ring Menu is the sticking point.  Timbo and Queue might have an idea, since graphic changes are right up their alley, as the saying goes.

Sorry I can't help any with the Stardust Herb icon problem.  The thing that really gets me is how I can alter text just fine (EDIT:  Except spell names for some reason), but nothing else that's graphical unless someone else already figured out the way.  If I knew as much about SoM graphics as I'd like to right now, I'd be able to shorten the red bars that appear on the Status Menu Screen, next to Strength, Agility, etc.  Even that would be more of a help to people who want graphics mods, instead of the big fat zero I can currently offer.

EDIT:  Alas, the Documentation by regrs, zhaDe and Enker don't seem to contain any information, about which part of the Van. ROM does that one little thing!  Ah well... one day.  :(

But hopefully the rest of my Post, helps out a bit for the time being.  Talk again soon.   :beer:
« Last Edit: October 31, 2019, 07:56:48 am by zoolgremlin »
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kethinov

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #835 on: October 29, 2019, 03:00:44 am »
Kethinov already created the icon:

https://ibb.co/dkfcLDJ

It was actually Timbo that created the icon. He based it on Children of Mana, but redrawn to match SoM's palette limitations.

It's also great that the Herb patch would be fully compatible with Faerie Coconut, since I love that thing.

This is not actually the case... There is only space for one extra item, not two. So the Stardust Herb would have to either replace the Medical Herb, or the Faerie Coconut. This is why I originally created the Magical Herb. I wanted to overload the Medical Herb with additional functionality to make it less useless without using the space the Faerie Coconut occupies.

However, not everyone prefers my "maximalist" approach to things, so Timbo asked me to create the Stardust Herb to compliment the Medical Herb and replace the Faerie Coconut. His vision was that in WoB, you would have to debuff positive status effects often (e.g. Red Drops casting Fire Saber on you causing your weapons to heal them or something) and having a separate item to remove such status effects would make inventory management more nuanced.

The only minor difficulty I see with having this new item is the 12-slot limit on the Ring Menu.  I think it used to be that only 11 items, including stuff like the Flammie Drum, could be stored in the Item Ring, but Queue changed that to 12.

The game always supported 12 items. The 12th item was merely dummied out / unfinished for some reason. You can actually see this for yourself if you play with the Faerie Coconut patch, buy some, save, then use that save file on the vanilla ROM. You'll see the original dummied out item in your inventory with the name "?" and when you go to use it, it will show the Candy animation but doesn't actually do anything.

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #836 on: October 29, 2019, 03:07:26 am »
zoolgremlin

Man, I suck at explaining things.  This is probably why people often misunderstand me.

#1: Ahh.

#3: I was simply asking people if they want me to edit something regarding HP/MP/behavior of certain enemies.  Mr X already brought up a few (some I agreed and modified, some I rejected, and some I'm working on).  I'm simply gathering ideas, since I don't even know if it's something I can do (well, HP/MP mods are easy, but behavior is much tougher).

#4: As kethinov already pointed out, Stardust Herb would be REPLACING Faerie Coconut.  I guess I was unclear about that.

« Last Edit: October 29, 2019, 03:17:05 am by hmsong »

zoolgremlin

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #837 on: October 29, 2019, 04:30:26 am »
@hmsong & kethinov:  Oh, there you are!  Okay, just a brief response...  <sweatdrop> :)

#3
Generally speaking, Vanilla HP values are all over the damn place.  Which wouldn't be a problem, if lower-HP Monsters/Bosses had higher evasiveness AND defences to compensate, but mostly they don't.  However, as Timbo and kethinov have rightly pointed out, tweaking the Monster & Boss Data Table to make nuanced changes like that, is not that quick or simple.  For a couple of different reasons, such as Defence/Magic Defence being a subtractive reduction to AttPwr/SpellPwr, not a fractional one, which is easier to test and tweak.

MP values generally need to be changed to allow for any spell that now costs more, Hellfire being the big example.  Other than that, I can't think of any changes needed, unless you want to make it harder for the characters to MP-drain all targets to 0.  Which neuters their fighting ability quite a lot.

Current HP values are checked by a few Monsters and Bosses as part of a Conditional Branch in their AI, to prioritize the next movement or action.  But I am not yet aware of any checks made on current MP to do the same.

A lot of free time is needed to make changes like that, not so much programming skill.  Fortunately I have plenty of free time, soooo... Challenge Accepted!   :laugh:

#4
Ah, so the Herb IS replacing the Coconut, apologies for the confusion.  No, I don't think your explanatory skills suck, you guys might have pointed out the details about the Herb/Coconut change, already.  But I've not really gone too deep into what's been said about stuff, for the last 10 days or so.

I'd say it would be a real shame to lose the Coconut, just to add in the Herb, since the Coconut has not long been created and is really cool.  But I suppose with Queue's Shadow Saber, the need for two MP-restoring items is not so great anymore.  Ah well...  :-\



I might hopefully get some real work done on the Documents tonight, since I've recovered from that stressful Friday and my gum infection.  I'm pretty sure my new Shop Table mod functions as intended now, but it's not that good without changing it some more.  And the Equipment Data Table.  And the Pricing Data Tables.  So it's still a preliminary mod, not finalized.  Still, it may as well go into the second Shortlist, once I create it shortly.

That's all for now, unless I go back and read the last 10 days of Posts more thoroughly, or something else is brought up tonight.  Thanks guys... I'm liking your work so far, including the new patches like Neko & Watts in Pure Land, Turtles on Turtle Shell Isle, Dust Flare, etc.  Really neat ideas happening there...  ;)
« Last Edit: October 31, 2019, 08:01:58 am by zoolgremlin »
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Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #838 on: October 29, 2019, 05:42:57 am »
zoolgremlin, you were remembering when I fixed a bug in a bugfix that was making the item ring choke on 12 icons, it wasn't a vanilla bug. So don't worry, you've not gone crazy, there was just a tiny bit more context.

I've sometimes heard of the two defense systems as a threshold system and resistance system, for subtractive versus percentage. Those are definitely not universal terms though, just giving perspective. Percentage systems are usually fairly easy to balance but are extremely boring, and make it hard to let an enemy or player be totally immune (which you do sometimes want). Threshold systems are usually a nightmare to balance, but allow for richer combat variety (rapid / multiple weak hits being tons of total damage against low armor but completely blocked by strong armor, slow / single high damage being bad damage over time but able to punch through strong armor, etc.), and that's when there aren't forms of damage that negate some of the threshold. The best results I've personally seen are when it's a combination of both, but that is even more work and pretty rarely done.

Mr X, where are you imagining the grave bats? Just outside the Fire Palace? In place of which enemy? I currently have them in the great forest replacing silktails at night because bats are wimps, despite being from much later in the game. Regarding the desert in general, it's a shame how much desert enemy variety is lost after you reach the sand ship. I'll see if there's anything fun I can do to re-expand the desert. I get why you want the goblins somewhere; it is a shame that they've basically gone to waste, it's how I feel about the polter chairs. But thematically they just seem like a bad fit for the upper lands which already has the mushroom people, moogles and sprites (though now dead) as intelligent civilizations. There's also the confounding factor that the sprite village uses the same art assets as the goblin village so is prime for misunderstanding if there are goblins around.



Anyway, everyone, regarding icons, here's the deal: I'll write up a guide, but it's probably going to take a couple days. The end result should be that it'll take you like 5 minutes to change the art assets for a ring menu icon. Like, I think it'd literally take me 5 minutes to cram that icon into the game, but I'd much rather other people be able to.

I think I'll make a step-by-step walk-through first, then post a more technical write-up as to why some of the steps are what they are, because running through the process in my head, a lot of it is non-obvious despite being fairly easy as long as you know what to do.

Oh, and just in case someone asks, no, don't imagine a world where Secret of Mana has more than 12 items. The ring menu, item data, inventory data and a whole lot more have a hard limit at 12 and would require big changes in too many places to increase that limit. Unfortunately, this'll have to be a replacement (or at least a conflict with the coconut). And for the record, my vote is for the coconut (medical herb is garbage, long live the magical herb).
« Last Edit: October 29, 2019, 06:07:03 am by Queue »

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #839 on: October 29, 2019, 06:11:23 am »
@Queue

Ohh, revisit the lower section of the desert.  That would be neat.  Indeed, there would be more varieties of enemies -- Sand Scorpion, Pumpkin Bomb, even a Pebbler.

Actually, you can access that place through Flammie, but as soon as you land, the game teleports you to the upper section of the desert.  Maybe you can make it NOT teleport you.  Instead, have the sandship part of the map teleport you (when you enter the map when you view the sandship from the outside, the screen teleports you in front of the Kakkara oasis -- makes sense too).  Or maybe you can just connect one portion of S.Desert to one portion of N.Desert.  Whatever brings more satisfaction.

Aha.  I'd love to read the guide on how to apply the png into the game.  I don't have the confidence that I'll understand though.  Hehe.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2019, 09:18:34 am by hmsong »