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Author Topic: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191205  (Read 132184 times)

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #780 on: October 24, 2019, 09:01:03 am »
That is a great find hmsong, regarding how saber magic functions with enemies with the same element as the saber. Could open up other possibilities in the future. Don't think that's something that needs to be fixed either. It may have been intended all along but I never noticed it in all these years (or didn't pay attention).

teahouser

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191018
« Reply #781 on: October 24, 2019, 01:02:12 pm »
I think the right solution to enemy MP is to just increase enemy MP using my "Adjust Enemy Difficulty" hacks. Personally, I always apply the 500% MP hack to all enemies and bosses. Much simpler and cleaner than trying to adjust it in a hack that alters the spells themselves.

Hey kethinov, I noticed on your easier or harder monsters patch that's included in the turbo zps patcher that the only attributes that can be modified is monster or boss HP/XP/GP. Will this patch ever be updated in the patcher to include an MP modifier?

As of now modifying the monster and boss MP is probably the only thing I want to increase to like 300-500%, and maybe double their HP so I'm not so God like at level 99.


Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #782 on: October 24, 2019, 02:07:35 pm »
Updated my last post with the change log for version 2019-10-24.

teahouser, it's on me to get kethinov's Easier or Harder Monster's patch updated. That one's particularly tedious to handle in the ZPS patch format Turbo uses, so just haven't sat down and committed the time to adding in the newer stat adjustment stuff.

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #783 on: October 24, 2019, 03:22:49 pm »
Hmm while Fire Gigas single targets Lava Wave it is able to one shot the said target if it hits.

Only the boy was left in the end (had full health) and his fire ball spell did one shot him too. Could be my level is low also? (Level 10)
« Last Edit: October 24, 2019, 03:39:53 pm by Mr X »

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #784 on: October 24, 2019, 04:16:17 pm »
Dang, my test save near that fight is a bit higher level so it hadn't been as lethal. While I often see Spikey Tiger named as the "hardest" boss fight, Fire Gigas is who I'd pick as the biggest pain in the butt, especially with many of the changes in Turbo that affect him. His spell power is pretty high, especially for an early boss but also just in general.

There are lots of options to make him a more reasonable fight, but not sure which approach would fit best.

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #785 on: October 24, 2019, 05:20:52 pm »
Hm I wont mind gaining a few more levels, tho this is the problem with balance, you wont need those levels necessary for the next few fights, otherwise that is a reasonable approach. I could probably gain enough levels if I kill every monster in the underground temple, which is something I wont mind if it gets applied for every new dungeon, it is a reasonable amount of grind.

In turbo I don't generally view the spikey that much of a pain, I can just block is flame breath and physical attacks with one character.

The fire gigas is a real bitch to me, I have 3x hp for bosses set, my mp will run out for sure during that fight which isn't necessary a bad thing (be smarter with mp), in vanilla fire gigas could easily have been dealt with the amount of mp you got by that point by just casting freeze over and over.

What do you have in mind regarding a more reasonable Fire Gigas fight?

What I wa thinking generally, make some bosses to be able to cast saber spells on themselves. None does it in the original game. So for Fire Gigas I would go with flame saber on himself, and fireball/hellfire as offensive spells, would be one approach. He is the fire Gigas, turns into fire, you should get burned by his attacks.

Reduce his spell level from 4 to 3 may also be reasonable too? Idk.

kethinov

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #786 on: October 24, 2019, 05:32:00 pm »
I updated "Remove Empire Castle Gate Permanently" to swap the whip (chest) and javelin (Mech Rider II) orbs to balance progression. Thanks to hmsong for the suggestion. Also added full support for VWF and Relocalized. Thanks to Queue for the VWF/Relocalized code. https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4549/

And "Watts in the Haunted Forest" was updated to match Queue's edits (prevent Watts from spawning until receiving the axe): https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4511/

Ditto for "Sheex is a Master Ninja." Updated to match Queue's edits. (Added full support for VWF and Relocalized and other refactoring.) http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4709/

So, what do you think about my Dust Flare animation color?  Any better suggestions?

Just tested this finally. Good colors!
« Last Edit: October 29, 2019, 01:54:26 am by kethinov »

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #787 on: October 24, 2019, 09:22:55 pm »
@Queue

Thank you for updating the Shadow Saber so Randi can use it.

For the Dust Flare, what color code did you use?  Your menu brown (orange?) may be better matching color with 7B animation.  Also, how do I modify the color for the 3rd tier spell color?

And thank you for Ice Thug/Turtlance info.  I confirmed it (they just randomly cast if you wait long enough).  I'm definitely gonna update the enemy behaviors (and probably enemy element).  I'm still in the middle of testings.  More on that later.



@Mr X

You were Lv10 when you fought Fire Gigas?  Yeesh.  I was at Lv12 when I fought Spikey Tiger, and I barely beat him.  I just gave Flame Saber to Fire Gigas (makes him cast Flame Saber to your party) -- all other Gigas do that.



@kethinov

Thank you for the Empire Gate!  Queue, please update.

Also, which color did you like better?  Black/yellow or brown?  Or Queue's orange?  I'm still indecisive about the colors...
« Last Edit: October 24, 2019, 10:12:43 pm by hmsong »

kethinov

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #788 on: October 25, 2019, 12:29:44 am »
I like both. I'm not super picky about this sort of thing sometimes though.

New hack: "Banished From Potos on the Honor System"

This hack makes it possible to revisit Potos village not long after you’re banished. Instead of the guard angrily banishing you from Potos village, he will more politely ask you to leave. It’s more like a request than an order though, because after not too much time passes in the story, the guard won’t block your way anymore and you’ll be able to walk right into the village unimpeded. While it’s well-known that you can revisit Potos village in the original game by exploiting the “switch character” glitch, this hack removes the need to exploit a glitch to revisit the village.

Download: http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4759/

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #789 on: October 25, 2019, 12:57:30 am »
@kethinov

Wow.  That new hack.  Awesome.  Queue, please include this.  It's pretty damn funny.



@Queue

According to the previous post, you can exploit the "press select repeatedly" to go past certain characters, such as Potos guard and Pandora guards.  Is it also possible to get past the Emperor Castle's guards? (when you are "invited", but the guards block some stairways)  That'll be funny -- leave the rebels in the jail, or make the emperor continue to wait in the dining room forever (take that, emperor!).

kethinov

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #790 on: October 25, 2019, 01:27:52 am »
New Hack: "Early Tasnica"

This hack makes it possible to visit Tasnica as soon as you get Flammie instead of forcing you to wait until acquiring Shade, Lumina, and Luna. This allows access to better armor and an extra sword orb earlier than you would otherwise get these things. While it's well-known that you can visit Tasnica early in the original game by exploiting the "switch character" glitch, this hack removes the need to exploit a glitch to do so. Because this hack deletes two NPC entries from the spawn table, this also provided an opportunity to add two additional Lullabuds to the path to Gaia's Navel.

Download: http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4761/

New Hack: "Turtles on Turtle Shell Isle"

This hack spices up the Sea Hare's Tail sidequest by putting Turtlances on Turtle Shell Isle. These very dangerous turtles are there to guard the villagers from trespassers swooping in on flying dragons.

Includes a companion hack to make this compatible with Level 9 Weapons Progression Balance. (Had to move a couple weapon orb chests further up in memory to make room for this, thus the need for a compatibility hack for L9WPB.)

Fun technical detail: Unlike other similar hacks, this hack doesn't delete other monsters in order to make room for these. All 5 Turtlances I added to the island were actually dummied out monsters that never spawned in vanilla from a map that is nearby in memory (a bunch of Ghouls outside of Northtown Ruins that never spawn due to an event flag conflict with Phanna). There wasn't really a better place to put them besides Turtle Isle mainly due to the proximity of the Isle to where the dummied out monsters were in the ROM, thus why I made this sort of silly hack.



Download: http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4762/

According to the previous post, you can exploit the "press select repeatedly" to go past certain characters, such as Potos guard and Pandora guards.  Is it also possible to get past the Emperor Castle's guards? (when you are "invited", but the guards block some stairways)  That'll be funny -- leave the rebels in the jail, or make the emperor continue to wait in the dining room forever (take that, emperor!).

Nope. I tested this recently. It doesn't work on them for some reason.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2019, 08:01:16 pm by kethinov »

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #791 on: October 25, 2019, 03:13:21 am »
hmsong haha I purpusefully do try to stay at lower levels to be more even with the bosses. Spikey isn't a problem for me, especially now, his multi target fireball does just 1 damage, fire breath can be blocked, I just put a character in front of him when he jumps to cast spells. Only trouble is when he rolls on my characters while I can block that withone character the other two will eat hits, but 7 gumdrops are enough for me. And he was at 3x hp  >:D

Fire Gigas was a straight up pain tho for me haha, if you are left with just one character alive, any spell of his would one shot you, Lava wave single target does the same no exception, hellfire is the only spell that wouldnt one shot anyone if cast single target.

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #792 on: October 25, 2019, 04:50:14 am »
Mr X

Oh... I didn't know Spikey Tiger's multi-Fireball only did 1 damage.  Gotta fix that.  I'll give it 1-target.

Or I can really make things challenging by giving him... FLAME SABER!!!  I haven't tested it yet, but imagine how tough that guy will be if he engulfs you with every attack (and since he's Fire type, he'll get DEF boost).

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #793 on: October 25, 2019, 05:14:50 am »
Mr X

Oh... I didn't know Spikey Tiger's multi-Fireball only did 1 damage.  Gotta fix that.  I'll give it 1-target.

Or I can really make things challenging by giving him... FLAME SABER!!!  I haven't tested it yet, but imagine how tough that guy will be if he engulfs you with every attack (and since he's Fire type, he'll get DEF boost).

I think flame saber is too unfair for that early in the game, each of his physical attacks would engulf your party. I wont mind if the Blue Spikey gets that saber tho.

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #794 on: October 25, 2019, 05:55:35 pm »
@Queue

I noticed this a while ago (actually, I'm sure everyone else has noticed this).  Why the hell is Wolf Lords (and Werewolves?) constantly using Cure Water on themselves, even when they're full HP?  Lots of times, they just cure themselves as soon as they pop out, giving me a great opportunity to approach and give them a savage beatdown.  I think there's something wrong with their AI behavior, but I have no idea how to fix that.  Any idea?

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #795 on: October 25, 2019, 06:39:02 pm »
Mr X, yeah, Spikey Tiger's a chump with manual blocking, which seems fitting for an earlier game boss.

Regarding ways to make the Fire Gigas easier:
- reduce his spell power (it's 42 (0x2A) which is higher than either other gigas)
- give him an NPC only version of a spell to use
- give him a different spell (like hmsong's Flame Saber suggestion)
- reduce his mana supply
- change his AI

Probably other options too, that was what I thought up without trying.



hmsong, for Dust Flare, I accidentally left the icon palette at 0x8C, which is the same as the Flammie Drum (I was experimenting, then went to finish up something else, and forgot to change it back to 0xA0). The spell animation palette is 0x7B, which was what you posted for brown.

Don't know yet on changing the high tier animation color. Pretty sure the animation data is somewhere in bank 0x1C but haven't finished analysis.

Yeah, I'll get to kethinov's updates and new things, wish I had more hours in a day. Actually, in that regard, I may not get much done until next Monday; really busy weekend for me unfortunately.

I've never looked into why you can character swap squeeze past some NPCs and not others. It could be related to the NPC's position on the screen, or the current coordinate of your characters, or something to do with the NPC's collision box size, dunno.

Wolf Lord AI is something like: "if my health is below X, cast Cure Water" and X is probably set too high so it's always true.



kethinov, neat stuff. Do you have any qualms with me using the feature name "Revisit Potos" in the patcher menu so it fits with the other essentially related options? The other times I've summarized your patch names has generally been to just make them more concise or to avoid symbols (like apostrophe), but this would be a much less obvious rename.

kethinov

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #796 on: October 25, 2019, 08:04:55 pm »
kethinov, neat stuff. Do you have any qualms with me using the feature name "Revisit Potos" in the patcher menu so it fits with the other essentially related options? The other times I've summarized your patch names has generally been to just make them more concise or to avoid symbols (like apostrophe), but this would be a much less obvious rename.

Yeah, that's fine. I actually considered following your pattern on RHDN, but the temptation to name it something funny instead was too great.

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #797 on: October 25, 2019, 10:34:47 pm »
@kethinov

Regarding your [Turtles on Turtle Shell Isle], the Ghouls actually spawn in vanilla -- After you enter the Northtown Ruins, just exit, and you'll see them (maybe they spawn after leaving the Phanna scene?).

Also, any idea which specific address contains the new Dust Flare LV3 animation color is at? (the one Queue found)



@Queue

Please update Dust Flare patch:

Code: [Select]
@OFF $D08189 ' Imp Fire Bouquet (one enemy) --> Flame Saber (self)
'RAW C1 E9 05 10
RAW C4 E9 05 0F
@OFF $C2DC1D ' Spikey Tiger Fire Bouquet --> Fireball
'RAW 10
RAW 0C

Turns out, giving Sabers to bosses don't do much -- the sabers don't inflict the "extra" effects.  They do get DEF boost (and STR boost) if their element match, but their "change in melee attack" cause them to dispel their own saber spells (kinda like when you switch weapons, it dispels the sabers), hence dispelling their STR/DEF boost from the saber spell.

This is also a problem with Ninjas -- they use saber magics on themselves, but as soon as they throw a boomerang, they dispel their own saber magic (I gave saber magic to the Goblins, and yup, same thing).  It's a vanilla behavior though.  I'm pretty sure this is what causes bosses to not be able to use Saber magics effectively.

Maybe this is something you can fix?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2019, 11:01:38 pm by hmsong »

zoolgremlin

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #798 on: October 25, 2019, 11:56:53 pm »
Just a few things quickly, 'cause I don't really know enough yet to get into detail, about all the different discussion points that have come up.

Quote
kethinov
New hack: "Cure Water Both Heals and Cures"
New hack: "Energy Absorb for the Girl"
New hack: "Freezing Rain"
New Hack: "Early Tasnica"
New Hack: "Turtles on Turtle Shell Isle"

Hehe... what a neat bunch of add-ons!  I don't say that to be cheeky, by the way... if anything, your skills, knowledge and release rate make me feel like a NOOB, by comparison.

That's basically why I'm an "apprentice ROMhacker" at best... probably more accurate to say I'm a "tinkerer", which I don't think is an actual word, harhar...  ::)  (CORRECTION:  I checked and it is.  Surprising...)

Great stuff.  I still have more reviews to hand out, as well.  Mainly for your stuff...   :laugh:



@Queue:  Thanks for the latest update, I'm still using the 191018 iteration for setting up and experimenting with the game, but I'm sure the new version is fine.  Hope you are going well...  8)



For everyone else, there could be a lot to say, but I'm not sure what.  Regarding bugtesting, for example, I can confidently say that none of the reported bugs are stuff I've experienced personally.  Except for the Wolf Lord one.  Also, the idea that a monster would get a direct boost to its Defence score, against a Saber spell that matches its Element, is not something I have ever heard of.  Even regrs didn't say anything along those lines, that I ever read about.

But he did say that Wolf Lord's Cure Water AI is a Vanilla bug.  He casts it a lot sooner, and a lot more incessantly, than he was supposed to.  Because in Vanilla he only has... something like 280HP to start, and the AI checks for too high a percentage, or absolute value, of currHP, to determine what spell he should cast.  Which in my opinion is pathetic for an endgame Monster.  If you greatly increase his HP with [Easier_Or_Harder_Monsters] in Turbo, or kethinov's [Adjust_Enemy_Difficulty] package, his AI allows him to cast Lunar Boost and Moon Saber at high-to-max HP, which is what was supposed to happen.

Did I mention lately that Square Enix programming sucks?  It ROYALLY SUCKS!  Nyeeeeahhh...  :D

But I'm guessing that's not due to carelessness or lack of talent from the actual programmers.  No no, that's probably the company executives rushing the product to market, after not quite enough quality control on the developer's side of things.

They're not the only company that's guilty of that.  It seems to be the price that gets paid for commercial video game development specifically, in so many cases.  For other, more vital, types of software, that may not happen so often.  Hopefully...  :-\

I'll be around later for more Comments, when I can decide what to say next.  Hehe...  :crazy:
« Last Edit: November 01, 2019, 11:06:03 am by zoolgremlin »
If you try to fail, and succeed, what've you done?!

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191024
« Reply #799 on: October 26, 2019, 02:01:56 am »
@zoolgremlin

Hey, I'm actually working on enemy behavior/stat.  I'm editing MP and monster's possible spells (overall HP/GP/XP can be changed in Turbo patch, and kethinov patch can edit even more, so I'm only talking about individual level), but yeah, increasing HP of Wolf Lord sounds good.  Dunno how much I should raise though.

If you have some suggestions on enemy HP/MP/Spell possibilities, let me know.  But sadly, I cannot modify the conditions of enemy spells (ex: I can't make an enemy cast spells more frequently).



@kethinov

For your Hellfire patch, perhaps you can make all enemies with Exploder spell have more MP.  I know you have "Harder Enemies" patch, but I'm talking about the default that comes with Hellfire patch.  You know, for people who use Hellfire, but don't use Harder Enemies patch.  Just the non-bosses, since most bosses with Exploder have enough MP, probably.

If someone can list all enemies (non-bosses) with Exploder spell, I'd appreciate it.  I know there are 5 enemies with that spell.  I only know 2:

1. Imp
2. Captain Duck

I can see the codes, but I don't know who they belong to...
« Last Edit: October 26, 2019, 02:36:27 am by hmsong »