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Author Topic: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191210  (Read 136163 times)

kethinov

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191006
« Reply #620 on: October 07, 2019, 01:30:55 am »
FWIW in Equipment Progression Balance he drops Ninja Gloves rather than Faerie Cloaks, so it's no different than Dark Stalker.

In vanilla, a rare chance of getting a Faerie Cloak is indeed an unfortunate (though quite minor) side effect, but I don't think the solution is to spawn something else. I think the solution is to apply an equipment balance hack that scales back enemies dropping armors wholesale. Or alternatively I could alter his drop table as part of the Sheex hack to make him drop Ninja Gloves like in Equipment Progression Balance.

I do however like the idea of preventing him from dropping a chest at all (or forcing an auto talk to clear the room) in the "boss fight" variant of the fight. I wonder if event 2D1 (trying to wake the king) can be converted into an auto talk event that spans the entire room somehow:

Code: [Select]
[Event 2D1]
C9/BEBA: 4A 0480E9 | execute next command if the enemy is still alive
C9/BEBE: 12 CF     | goto event 2CF "The king's unconscious."
C9/BEC0: 27 48     | gosub #748 if the enemy is dead; fade out music; "Sir...Snap out of it!!"

If I understand how an auto talk event works correctly, the call to event 2CF could be zeroed out to do nothing. Event 2D1 would thus execute every walking frame, but do nothing until the enemy is killed, at which time the dialog "Sir...Snap out of it!!" would trigger instantly and you would never have an opportunity to pick up a chest if one spawned. Though you would frustratingly see it spawn...

Dunno, seems hacky. Even for ROM hacking. I'll have to give it some thought.

Oh also I forgot to mention this... Queue have you given thought to spawning the kid goblins in Goblin Village as fightable monsters when you revisit Goblin Village?

And a bug: day/night cycle doesn't apply when you enter Goblin Village.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2019, 10:00:28 pm by kethinov »

PerryR

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191006
« Reply #621 on: October 07, 2019, 01:55:08 am »
When do you guys think you have a version "1.0"? From what I read you are still changing much around at this stage?

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191006
« Reply #622 on: October 07, 2019, 03:01:32 am »
@PerryR

It was already v1.0 a long time ago... but now, with so many updates so frequently, it's now v2019.10.06.  In short, it's very playable.

kethinov

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191006
« Reply #623 on: October 07, 2019, 03:20:19 am »
Another bug: Hydra's arena (first Underground City boss) needs a tidy map treatment at the bottom.

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191006
« Reply #624 on: October 07, 2019, 03:49:02 am »
@kethinov

I'm sure it's troublesome, but I hope to see you make a patch for auto-talk the Master Ninja event.  I just hope it's not something I can abuse.  For example, I walk right on the spot where Master Ninja will drop the chest (there's time during the Master Ninja death animation), and I specifically DON'T walk to trigger the auto-talk, and simply pick up the dropped chest.  Maybe the auto-talk will be trigger by any A button, after Master Ninja's death?

It feels like I'm finding all these tiny details that would frustrate you.  Sorry.

Maybe it's easier to just make that specific Master Ninja not drop a chest, although I don't know how that's possible (assuming other Master Ninjas drop chests).

Btw, I decided to take your advice and put Eggplant Man back into the Shape Shifter list.  I'm however having difficult time coming up with a list for other 3 monsters, since Eggplant Man is Human/Lumina (after my monster type/element change).  I want to keep Captain Duck (Human/Salamando), since he's awesome with the new Hellfire.  And I like Mushgloom and Gremlin too.  I specifically want all monsters to have different type/element, and I want all those monsters to be recurring monsters from other games (and I like cute monsters too).  I'll update eventually if I figure out a good list.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2019, 04:28:14 am by hmsong »

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191006
« Reply #625 on: October 07, 2019, 03:54:42 am »
Hmmm I was thinking to make that specitic Sheex-dark stalker more special among the other dark stalker enemies.

A stand out "new" enemy, naming it Underworld Ninja or Shadow Ninja, or maybe Xorn Ninja (his other form being Mega Xorn) turning it into an actual boss by slightly recoloring it, modifying stats and spells.

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191006
« Reply #626 on: October 07, 2019, 04:00:05 am »
@Mr X

Is there even a space for that?  If I remember correctly, Queue had a space for one enemy, and he used it to create the Sword Orb snowman enemy.

zoolgremlin

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191006
« Reply #627 on: October 07, 2019, 04:10:22 am »
<whew>  Finally... finally got the Armor and Shop tables up to a more complete state.  Link:

Secret of Mana Information (Vanilla)

There have been quite a few discussion points since I last Posted, will not try to answer all of them now.  But I have noted down what you said, hmsong, about Status Effects.  Interesting idea, but from a technical perspective, very difficult as Queue noted ahead of me.  But I will say more about this sometime later on, hopefully not forgetting to do so.   ::)

Also this:
Quote
kethinov:
I also altered Revivifier to a yellow palette to reflect it being a Luna spell now.
I put up a fairly significant update to "Remove Empire Castle Gate Permanently".
I've posted a new hack: "Sheex is a Master Ninja".

So not only have you beaten me to the punch regarding the yellow "Glow" being given to Revivifier, but you've completed two other things!  I feel quite inadequate now...  :laugh:

Making Sheex a Master Ninja makes him more like an actual boss fight than Aegagropilon does.  I eat ol' Aega for breakfast most mornings, since it was noted by Yagamoth back in the day, that he looks kinda like an angry watermelon.   :D

Great stuff, kethinov.  Really great...   8)



Things have moved quite fast, I will have to check my notes and possibly update them, to better outline what to work on next.  Offhand, what I can remember people asking about most were:

A.  Spell functions, which by default work (mostly?) the same in [SplSysExts] as Vanilla, but have possibly been moved elsewhere in the ROM... no idea.
B.  The algorithm that determines whether the latest Treasure Chest drop is Common or Rare, and...
C.  Enemy/Boss AI scripts.  Were those the main three things?  I think so...

And all this time, my so-called "Prototype Shortlist" has been mainly focussing on the Weapon Damage algorithm, the Set Character/Enemy Stats functions, and the Weapon/Armor/Character_Stat data tables.  Three things that, surprisingly, almost nobody has asked about!   :laugh:

I have also briefly wondered how much of the extra space is used, when the ROM is expanded to 3 or 4 MB.  Haven't properly checked, but a quick glance through suggests... not very much of it.  I have not noted any instances of that space being used, by anyone doing hacks for this project or their own.  Besides FuSoYa and Timbo.  Hrmmm... But that's way ahead of myself, again...

@Queue:  By the way, I haven't fully studied your Spell System Extensions custom script syntax.  But from what I can tell, it's a very clever way to hack the botched spell system in this game.  I will go more into this at a later time, have not really been focussing on spell-related stuff so far, as noted above.  But many thanks for the custom script system... it works.  Thanks also for the latest update, hope you have a good one...  :beer:
« Last Edit: November 01, 2019, 10:53:55 am by zoolgremlin »
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Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191006
« Reply #628 on: October 07, 2019, 04:16:57 am »
@Mr X

Is there even a space for that?  If I remember correctly, Queue had a space for one enemy, and he used it to create the Sword Orb snowman enemy.

If there is no space then there's nothing you can do about it, it wont be implemented.

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191006
« Reply #629 on: October 07, 2019, 06:40:20 am »
@Queue

Quote
0xFF 0x6A 0xE1, where 0xFF means call AI function and 0x6A 0xE1 = 0x6AE1 + $D04F15 = $D0B9F6; no, I'm not sure why they used such a weird system to address AI script functions. Anyway, $D0B9F6 = Target_Nearest_Enemy.

Where are you getting $D04F15 from?  And where do I put $D0B9F6?  Do I put that instead of C1 E9?

zoolgremlin

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191006
« Reply #630 on: October 07, 2019, 07:31:03 am »
hmsong:  Welp, at the moment I can't answer all of your questions about monster AI.  Not yet.   :-\

But I can at least answer the bit about $D04F15... that's the very beginning of the enemy AI code block in Bank 0x10.  Rabite's AI subroutine starts right there at that address, and the game... probably adds an Index offset value to $D04F15 to get to the beginning of the subroutine it actually needs at a given moment.  At least, that's what I think the documentation says.

For Rabite, since it's subroutine is at the start, the Index offset added is $0000.  For everything else, the Index offset will be greater than $0000.  Because the game program needs to branch down the code block, until it reaches the start of the subroutine relevant to the enemy at hand.  In your case, Dark Funk.

Sorry to jump in like this, since I know that Queue is the one volunteering to teach you computer programming... "stuff", for lack of a better description.  But earlier in the thread, Queue helpfully supplied us with the Bank Number needed for enemy AI, which I just opened up now.  Before, I only knew for sure where Boss AI was.

That very kindly saved me the need to check every Bank document from the start until the correct one.  So in a way... he's teaching me too.   :)

Though at the very least, I can use a PDF document downloaded from this website to provide me with explanations about 65816 assembly instructions.  So there's... that, I gueeeess...?    :crazy:
« Last Edit: October 07, 2019, 10:06:38 am by zoolgremlin »
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hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191006
« Reply #631 on: October 07, 2019, 10:47:38 am »
@zoolgremlin

I welcome all sources of teachings.  Unless the teaching is wrong.  LOL.

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191006
« Reply #632 on: October 07, 2019, 02:39:53 pm »
PerryR, by most peoples' standards, this has been "1.0"-worthy since its original public release. The changes you see being discussed are actually usually incredibly minor in the grand scheme of things, so aside from occasional bugs, it's been pretty solid since, like, March. When I do software, I usually call it an "alpha" until I consider it good enough to have other people use, then it's "beta" until it's done, and then when it's done I'm usually gone. Because it's done.

Side tangent, what do people have against software that is no longer updated? That's the best kind; it won't change out from under you so you can master it, modify it, etc. without your effort going to waste. All of these video games being hacked on this website are "unmaintained" (or whatever word you want to use for final and unchanging) and what is done here wouldn't be practical otherwise.



Mr X, what hmsong said, I already used the one unused normal enemy to make the Farmable Sword Orb monster. There may be some tricky ways to have the event system reconfigure the monster you fight in Tasnica; will bring that up with kethinov.



zoolgremlin, Spell System Extensions mainly compacts the vanilla spell functions and then uses the resulting space to change some hardcoded behaviors of said spell functions to instead base their behavior on spell data; the prime example is probably the Saber spell function(s) where in vanilla each element calls a different function entrypoint to specify their element, while the SSE version just reads the element from the respective spell's spell data.

As for the 3rd and 4th MB of the ROM:
- The 4th MB is only used by NGI features and Turbo features; anything where it has the ~ symbol in their description on the first line. Anything where I let the ZPS patcher dynamically allocate space for code/data instead of packing it into vanilla ROM space.
- The 3rd MB is primarily used by event script overhauls, so VWF Edition and Relocalized, which mostly ignore the vanilla event scripts in banks 0x09 and 0x0A and instead use copies in 0x20+ ($E00000+). However, I also put any large feature that warranted the use of its own dedicated bank in the 3rd MB as well, namely the Title Screen stuff, ZSNES MSU-1 code, and the Polished_Weapons data (which is location sensitive and needs to mimic bank 0x14 to work). These are all marked in their feature descriptions with a superscript 3.



hmsong, no I haven't gotten to kethinov's updated Remove_Empire_Castle_Gate.

Quote from: hmsong
I hope Queue applies all the important patches to his Turbo package.
That's always my goal, it just takes time. And there are now more of kethinov's SoM hacks than stars in the sky, or something; his work has gotten more complex over time so it takes longer to integrate each one, plus I usually want to play them so that slows things down further.

$D0B9F6 is an AI script (that selects the nearest opponent as an AI's melee_target). Any other AI script can call that one using the command FF6AE1; AI script function calls use an offset relative to $D04F15 when specifying the address of the function to call. The point being, when you want an AI script to call the "target nearest opponent" AI function, you use FF6AE1, and then follow it with C1 to copy the melee_target to spell_target. The hard part is finding space in the AI script you're modifying for those 3 extra bytes (since you'd likely be replacing a single byte C4 with FF6AE1C1).



kethinov, added Hydra's room to my list. I think Elinee's castle is likely up next to get tidied up; spent some time there to experience the changed music and noted a few things that need fixing. I would've done Gaia's Navel when working on the Goblin Village back entrance but uhhh... it's freaking huge and has some severe issues (lots of seams, entire rock faces that start their tiling on the wrong column, atrocious out of bounds trees, topless trees, bisected trees, etc.); that place is going to take a week to clean up at least. I've mulled over implementing some new map compression command codes to assist with Tidy_Map_Pieces but haven't committed to it (namely to make the standard SoM forest tiling compress better).

I've put off changing spell descriptions partly because I haven't wanted to deal with Relocalized compatibility for them, and partly because at least Blaze Wall and Evil Gate's vanilla descriptions were vague enough to mostly fit Inferno Barrier and Shadow Saber as-is.

As for the Goblin Village, yeah, back when I first set it up I wanted the little guys to be there to fight, but that's a non-combat map so that there can be more than 2 goblins + fake girl for the cutscene. Realistically, it'll require an entirely separate map (although using the same map pieces) to have a combat version, which is a boatload of work to set up.

It being daytime isn't a bug, I set it that way on purpose for the time being for two reasons: 1 is cutscene visibility (thematically, evening might look better, but there's no mechanism for any forced time of day except vanilla day; so it would require modifying the event script to set the time of day), 2 is palette issues (the goblin village fires use a stupid color selection that I can't make glow at night without also making other things glow that shouldn't, like flowers). Changing the colors proved annoying and I wanted to get the feature out the door and move on; if I get back around to that I can unlock the time of day for that map.

Anyway, thoughts on the Tasnica boss... I think you could extend event 2D0 to do what you want; after the event uses door 366, I think the "boss" would be loaded so the next command(s) could be stat modifications to him, including zeroing out his chest drop chance. If I have this right, the boss is object 4 (boy 1, girl 2, sprite 3, boss 4, king 5), and chest drop chance is $E1CE,X, so event command 39 04 CE 00. Event command 39 can write to any of the upper 256 bytes of an actor's data, so you could probably work in some interesting tweaks to the enemy aside from just chest drop chance. There's no vanilla event command to modify the lower 256 bytes; I added that capability to event 3D in Centered_Inn_Bed, and that code change is in-place and stable (I'm unlikely to change it) so you could copy that if you wanted to be able to change other parts of the boss's data via event script. If so, the command pointer table entry is at $C1E99C, and the rewritten code is at $C1F010.

Edit: Looking at actor data, I guess the upper 256 bytes contains most of the stuff worth changing, so event command 39 is probably all that would be necessary. Event 2D0 is in bank 0x09 so there's tons of free space by overwriting part of the unused Japanese ending credits event. I have some stuff there (New_Game_Plus, Day_Night_Cycle, and Revisit_Goblin_Village) so it'd likely be worth coordinating, or you can just put it wherever and I can handle relocating it when I get it imported (if you even take that approach).
« Last Edit: October 07, 2019, 07:57:07 pm by Queue »

kethinov

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191006
« Reply #633 on: October 07, 2019, 09:57:25 pm »
Ah, clever idea. I hadn't ever actually studied what all the event system shorthand commands do, but I see what you're getting at now. For example:

Code: [Select]
CA/0EEE: 39 01 90 00 ; this updates character data, clearing Randi's harmful status effects

I presume your suggestion would be to take event 2D0 and extend it like so:

Code: [Select]
C9/BEB5: 27 C4     | GoSub #7C4
C9/BEB7: 1B 66     | Transport: Use_Door #366
                39 04 CE 00             | NEW CODE: zero out enemy's chest drop chance
C9/BEB9: 00       | End

Then, as you say, relocate the event elsewhere and update the pointer (or simply rewrite the existing event to JSR or JSL elsewhere). Plenty of places to put the forked event. I know of at least a half dozen locations in bank C9 alone that have sufficient buffer space.

If that sounds right to you, I'll work on it and update the Sheex hack.

Regarding VWF/Relocalized compatibility, have you ever deciphered the alphabet system for VWF/Relocalized? I presume you did since you wrote the VWF/Relocalized dialog for Early Luna clues. I took a stab at it while working on the update to the Empire Castle sidequest but ragequit pretty quickly since it appears to be in some kind of compressed format that was not super obvious for me to decipher.

For instance, flipping one byte in a random VWF/Relocalized text string results in a garbage string being printed to the dialog box rather than merely a single letter changing. That implies some kind of compression or encryption key needs to be applied to the whole hex string before it can be converted into plain text rather than each byte representing a single letter as with vanilla.

If you have a document detailing the alphabet system for it somewhere, I can do the tedious work of encoding new content for you (or just write a script to automate it) if you want someone to take it off your hands for the handful of hacks that still need more VWF/Relocalized compatibility.

Btw, I decided to take your advice and put Eggplant Man back into the Shape Shifter list.  I'm however having difficult time coming up with a list for other 3 monsters, since Eggplant Man is Human/Lumina (after my monster type/element change).  I want to keep Captain Duck (Human/Salamando), since he's awesome with the new Hellfire.  And I like Mushgloom and Gremlin too.  I specifically want all monsters to have different type/element, and I want all those monsters to be recurring monsters from other games (and I like cute monsters too).  I'll update eventually if I figure out a good list.

I don't quite follow. Sounds like your current list is:

1. Mimic Box (unchanged)
2. Mushgloom (replaces Rabite)
3. Eggplant Man (unchanged)
4. Captain Duck (unchanged)
5. Gremlin (replaces Beast Zombie)

That's a full list, and seems like a pretty good one to me.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2019, 10:06:39 pm by kethinov »

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191006
« Reply #634 on: October 07, 2019, 10:24:30 pm »
@kethinov

My original was:

1. Mimic Box (unchanged)
2. Mushgloom (replaces Rabite)
3. Needlion (replaces Eggplant Man, because Captain Duck is also Human type)
4. Captain Duck (unchanged)
5. Gremlin (replaces Beast Zombie)

I want to put in Eggplant Man back, but it conflicts with Captain Duck (they're both human type).

kethinov

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191006
« Reply #635 on: October 07, 2019, 10:26:40 pm »
Ah, so you want both Needlion and Eggplant Man in separate slots. Now I see the problem. Personally, I still think Needlion doesn't need a slot of his own if Eggplant Men spawn them.

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191006
« Reply #636 on: October 08, 2019, 12:10:05 am »
No.  I initially was trying to decide which one to put -- Needlion OR Eggplant Man, but I decided Needlion, because he is Animal/Plant and Earth, whereas Eggplant Man is Human and N/E.  Both Eggplant Man and Captain Duck were Human and N/E.  Remember, I wanted all monsters to have different type and element.  And I wanted to prevent access to early Eggplantman's Watcher's Ring drop.

I thought it was you who mentioned that having early access to Watcher's Ring is no big deal, since players have access to Gauntlets and Ninja Gloves, and Eggplantman is already present in the Underground Subway.  I guess it was someone else.

Checked:  It was Mr X.  My bad.

Anyways, my current dilemma is between my previous list, or (after type/element change):
1. Mimic Box (Dragon, Luna)
2. Mushgloom (Plant/Fish, Dryad)
3. Eggplant Man (Human, Lumina)
4. Captain Duck (Human, Salamando)
5. Gremlin (Demon/Undead, Shade)

But as you can see, Eggplant Man and Captain Duck are both Human type.  That's why I went with Needlion (Animal/Bird, Earth) for #3, to avoid type conflict.  I'm open to changing monster type/element, but I don't know whom to change (I dont' want to change to different monsters, due to them being too weak or not recurring enough in other games).

It's not really important.  Almost nobody cares, other than me.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 01:16:55 am by hmsong »

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191006
« Reply #637 on: October 08, 2019, 02:35:22 am »
Grr, forum ate my post so here's the abbreviated form:

That's what I was imagining regarding event 2D0. Could probably also alter some of his stats in the same manner (spell power, health, etc.). Maybe even alter some visual aspects, but not as sure there.

Relocalized doesn't use the same text encoding as VWF Edition, it just is the same as vanilla.

VWF Edition's encoding is where each letter has a dependency on the previous (which itself has a dependency on the previous, and so on); I think they're XOR'd against and maybe some key value... I dunno, I didn't bother working out the details or disassembling FuSoYa's code. When I wanted to play by VWF Edition's rules I just brute-forced the text, like with the Mantis Ant tutorial.

VWF Edition applies its decoding algorithm to text in bank 0x09, and 0x20+ (and maybe some other vanilla bank? I forget), anyway, once loaded those map to addresses $C9xxxx and $E0xxxx+. SoM is HiROM so the ROM is mirrored between $C00000 and $400000, so if you point the event pointer at $49xxxx instead of $C9xxxx then VWF Edition won't try and decode the text, it'll just use it the same as vanilla. See Day_Night_Cycle Event087() for an example; note the "xor e table" entry of $800000, which is XOR'd against the event's address somewhere in bank 0x09 ($C9FD00+something).

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191006
« Reply #638 on: October 08, 2019, 02:57:46 am »
@Queue

Hey, I know you said you won't edit Balloon nor Engulf, but would you consider modifying Frosty SE?  Frosty really sucks (worse than NOT causing any SE, since you can't attack the victim by melee nor spell).  Petrify already does 25% max HP damage (+Defense Up), so maybe Freeze can damage MP? (25% max MP damage, or maybe tick away MP)  That would make Frosty SE a bit more effective, at least against PC, since MP is the real lifeline for the PCs.  And maybe make Frosty victims targettable by magic?

And speaking of Petrify, instead of raising DEF very little (I'm guessing it's raised by 25%), can you raise it a lot more?  As in, double?  That way, it'll be much stronger against melee attacks.  It still takes 100% damage from spells though.  As you know, I intend on making Grave Flare into pure Petrify spell (no damage, other than HP damage from Petrify SE).  I want Balloon spell to have an edge over Petrify on something.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2019, 07:31:25 am by hmsong »

zoolgremlin

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191006
« Reply #639 on: October 09, 2019, 03:32:47 am »
@hmsong:  Welp... at the moment, I have no idea how many functions/subroutines handle Status Defect-related stuff, the one I'm looking at right now in Bank 0x08 doesn't tell me what it would take to alter the way Frosty works.  So I can't help much with the idea of making Frosty do something marginally more useful for a player.  Not yet, that's the sad news...  :(

The good news, however, is that I've seen the module for [Defensive_Petrify] in Queue's current Turbo ZPS build that you were asking about.  As you suspected earlier, Petrify raises Defence by 25%, the same as Defence Up.  It looks to me as though it would be a simple fix to increase the Defence bonus granted by Petrify, in the ZPS itself.  The only trouble with that right now is, I haven't tried it yet.  Only looked at the module.

If I'm not mistaken, changing three commands/instructions in the [Defensive_Petrify] module is all it would take to raise the Defence bonus to x2, instead of +25%.  Perhaps I should try it first, to see if my proposed change will be bug-free when used in the game.  But to find the module in your copy of the ZPS if you would like, just do a search for "defensive_petrify", without the quotation marks. 

Okay... so it's not all good news right now.  But it could be soon... hope you're doing okay.   :)
« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 03:54:48 am by zoolgremlin »
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