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Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 231108

Started by Queue, January 31, 2019, 06:45:12 PM

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Oh, crap.  You're right.  Here's the reload:

It lists "8B", which I'm guessing is the EA8B you mentioned.

Here is what I understand so far.  I have several questions:

08EA8B: <damage>
08EA97: <?>  <<--- This is used for "Speed Down" spell, but I don't know why it's not using 08EBF4.  Do you know the difference?
08EAA3/A8/AD/B2/B7/BC: <(saber effect)>

08EB04: <acc up + eva up>
08EB20: <def up>
08EB39: <damage + def down>
08EB54: <hp absorb>
08EB9F: <cure stat>
08EBB3: <cure hp>
08EBCA: <damage + pwr down>
08EBE5: <damage + (stat effect)>
08EBF4: <(stat effect)>

08EC00: <analyze>
08EC3B: <mp absorb>
08ECB5: <pwr up + eva down>
08ECD1: <crit up>
08ECEA: <mana 1>

08ED04: <revive>
08ED53: <wall>
08ED68: <mana 2>
08ED82: <evil gate>
08EDCB: <dispel> <<--- The original Dispel pierces Wall, but not if this is used on other spells.  Any idea why?

08EEB7: <lucid barrier>
08EEF5: <lunar effect>

The only spell that actually applies accuracy down and/or evasion down is one of the random Lunar Magic effects. Soo... it would require adding or modifying a spell function to make another spell capable of that. Which is not something easy to explain. I'm currently reviewing all of the spell functions to determine if it's feasible to make a generic stat up / down function to make such spells data-driven, to free up code space among the spell functions to add new variations.

There's an unused byte in spell data that could be used to specify the stat, and some logic could be used to extrapolate the anti-stat plus related buff/debuff timer for said stat, or the status effect value could be overloaded with stat buff/debuff values which would mean a spell couldn't both apply a status effect and a stat buff/debuff but the necessary code would then be smaller / simpler.

I hope you can figure that out.  That would be awesome.


Okay, just a couple of things to mention...  :)

@Spiffspoo  The Secret of Mana forum on TASVideos was certainly very informative.  I was led to that forum from the one on GameFAQs.  The only thing I would add, though, is that I suspect at least some of the info by HHS is incorrect.  It would take a while to explain which bits, and why I believe they're incorrect, maybe private messaging would be a better way to go about that.  Not sure how you feel about PMing, however.

@Queue & Mr. X  I have not tested for the charge-gauge reset with every spell in the game, the reason being that getting a character hit by a spell that only targets enemies is not straightforward.  But what I found was that every spell the Girl can cast on an ally will cause the Gauge-Reset, unless the target has Wall.  I suppose that may mean that it's only when a character has a spell animation play over him/her, that the [Overcharge_Fix] kicks in and resets the Gauge.  Only the Charge Gauge, not the Stamina one.

That... really does fit in with Queue's suspicion that Mop's [Overcharge_Fix] is causing this new effect.  Having a spell bounce due to Wall makes the animation happen on another target, not the original one.  Dispel Magic in Vanilla resets both gauges, but only if a character is Charging, which is what it's meant to do.  Otherwise, Stamina is not zeroed and there is no Charge to affect, so nothing happens in that regard.

Hope that helps, but anyway...  :thumbsup:

I've been mapping out data tables for SoM Vanilla, using HxD to transfer value sets to Wordpad so they can be formatted into a list.  Wordpad is probably not the best tool for doing this sort of thing, but I'm gonna Link to what I've done so far, by storing the prototype lists in Google Drive.  Lemme know what you think, everyone, is it worth continuing with this for the sake of the project?   :-[

Link:  Secret of Mana Information (Vanilla)
MASTER LINK:  Secret of Mana Information (Vanilla)

"Yes, the Author is indeed a horse!"  <zool>


Quote from: zoolgremlin on September 11, 2019, 11:54:59 PM
I've been mapping out data tables for SoM Vanilla, using HxD to transfer value sets to Wordpad so they can be formatted into a list.  Wordpad is probably not the best tool for doing this sort of thing, but I'm gonna Link to what I've done so far, by storing the prototype lists in Google Drive.  Lemme know what you think, everyone, is it worth continuing with this for the sake of the project?   :-[

Link:  Secret of Mana Data Tables (Vanilla)

I found something on the Japanese version:

How different is the Japanese version? Maybe you can use some of the info from that web page.


@mkwong98  Holy s***.  I had no idea this webpage existed...  :-[

Many thanks for the Link, unfortunately I cannot say comprehensively how different the Japanese ROM map is from the US one.  Not yet, anyway, 'cause I just don't know.  Let's find out when we all can...  :)

Attention:  I have now received documentation that shows (almost) the full array of disassembled data for the Vanilla ROM (not Japanese one), and is fairly well-annotated for the sake of any reader who has it.  I am unable to say who gave me this documentation, as the person responsible for handing it over requests anonymity, but I can say for sure that I did NOT create any of this documentation, and the explanatory notes within.  I am, however, at liberty to reformat these data Blocks and Comments, and I am in the process of doing so until further notice.  Link is in my previous Post, and a few subsequent ones.  Thank you for your attention, that's all for this announcement.   Way 8)!

September 12, 2019, 10:58:44 PM - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)

@hmsong  Uhh... I know you weren't requesting a response from me in particular, but I can at least answer the question about the spell function called by Speed Down.  The answer is that there is no difference between that function and the one called by other status-inflicting spells, namely Silence, Sleep Flower, Balloon and Change Form.  Queue and I speculated earlier that Speed Down might originally have been intended to do more, than just inflict Slow(<target>'s tangled!), but in Vanilla that's literally all it does.  You could change its spell pointer to 0xF4EB and there would be no difference in its function.

Hope that helps...  :)

Not sure what you're asking in regards to Dispel Magic.  I'll... leave that one to whoever knows more than me right now, which would be quite a long list.  Sorry about that...  :-[
MASTER LINK:  Secret of Mana Information (Vanilla)

"Yes, the Author is indeed a horse!"  <zool>



No, thanks for the info.  I welcome all sources of information.  You wouldn't know how to separate "Slow" from "Tangle", would you?  I heard Slow slows down the recharge speed, while Tangle slows down the movement speed.


Version 2019-09-13:

- Fixed compatibility issue between Magic\Early_Luna and Text\VWF_Edition (or Text\Relocalized)
- Implemented Balance\Dangerous_Poison_And_Engulf; engulf does 1/32 of current health per pulse, poison does 1/64 of maximum health per pulse
- Fixed Balance\Reduce_Moon_Saber_Healing to actively update the UI upon healing
- Clarified Magic\Extend_Buff_Time description: it affects both stat buffs and stat debuffs and extends them by 50% over vanilla duration (also Mana Magic, guess I'll add that to the description later)
- Implemented Magic\Spell_System_Extensions; by itself it should have no effect, but it allows for more complex permutations of spell effects and adds 20 new spell slots (not currently practical for use by players, but easily used by enemies)
- For demonstration purposes of Spell_System_Extensions, implemented the following:
-- _Evil_Gate_-_NPC_Version; adds a copy of Evil_Gate that isn't affected by the increased mana cost of Evil_Gate_-_More_Useful for Dark Lich to use
-- _Speed_Down_-_Hit_And_Evade_Down; adds stat debuffs to the Tangle status effect inflicted by Speed Down
-- _Speed_Up_-_Detangle; makes Speed_Up cure Tangle status in addition to overwriting accuracy and evade down with accuracy and evade up

-- Spell_System_Extensions --
Search the ZPS file for "SPELL DATA" to see spell data tables for reference.

I have not added a means for a spell to cost health upon cast yet, nor modified Dispel Magic (to also strip Lucid Barrier, for example). Was quite a bit of work to overhaul the spell functions as I did so wanted to get something functional out for testing.

I could really use verification that Moon Saber updates the UI (when using Reduce_Moon_Saber_Healing), and that all spells still work as expected. I did a fair bit of testing but spell code was pretty heavily overhauled; I think I maintained all vanilla behavior though.

Mr X, I can basically guarantee that Acid Storm is not meant to poison despite the leftover spell data. It looks like it had previously poisoned and they changed its bonus effect from poison to defense down; it would have been trivial for the Acid Storm function to also cause a status effect and seems intentionally excluded. The spell data was left simply because it didn't matter.

SpiffSpoo, I'm not really concerned about keeping the first post in good shape; up-to-date info is contained in the patcher's feature descriptions.

hmsong, I got quite a bit sorted out. It'll likely take some time looking at the new SSE code and data to see how I set up spell data to let you specify which features a spell has, but I tried to make the data fairly verbose.

In vanilla, Speed Down's custom function is identical to the generic Status Effect spell function.

Dispel Magic's ability to strip wall is based purely on its spell level, whether you multi-target cast it or not and how many wall uses remain on the target. If you cast it but see the wall message, that means the target had wall but the cast did not reduce remaining wall uses to 0. My best guess for what you saw when trying to use the dispel magic spell function on other spells is either they were a lower level element, or the remaining uses on your target kept happening to be high enough to be only partially removed and it confused your expected results. Looking at the code, it shouldn't behave different based on which spell calls the dispel magic spell function.

I'm not really sure regarding Slow and Tangle; I didn't think anything affected recharge speed aside from the agility stat affecting what your recharge % starts at. If Tangle affects agility that would have an effect, but honestly I haven't checked what Tangle status does other than reducing movement speed and changing the hit chance calculation.


Whoa... the latest update has changed so much, I can't believe it.  Seriously Queue, I don't think we can possibly thank you enough, unless you have any ideas about how to do that.  :o

Legendary!  There's no better word for you, I'm sure of it!   :beer:

Ermm... Regarding the issue of Slow and Tangle, I suspect there may be some confusion here, on hmsong's part, about what those two terms mean in the game.  If true, this would not surprise me at all, as I was also shaking my head about it back in the day.  I'm still examining stuff for a better understanding, but here's my interpretation of the matter so far.

For clarity's sake (hopefully), I'll use HHS' two terms for the rest of this Post.  As far as I'm concerned now, they're Tangle and Mire, respectively.

HHS's info on TASVideos mentions two status defects he referred to as Slow and Tangled.  What he doesn't mention, though, is that Tangled is dummied-out.  If eg. a character gets hit with Speed Down or certain enemy attacks, such as Leaden Glare, the status defect that is inflicted is the one HHS calls "Slow".  If you look on the Stats screen for that character, there will be a message saying SLOWED DOWN, right where Mana Power and Money are normally displayed.

I believe Regrs stated on one occasion that nothing in the game inflicts what HHS calls Tangled at any time, including Speed Down.  However, if you were to inflict the status on a character with a cheat code, as I have done, the message displayed on the Stats screen is not SLOWED DOWN, but TANGLED UP.  Also, inflicting the status does not call a Message Event at the top of the screen when outside of the menu.  Whereas with Slow, you get a Message Event saying "<TargetName>'s tangled!"  Confused yet?!  Well, a nice dose of Medical Herb or Remedy will be just what the good Doctor ordered, but for the time being, I cannot blame you for that.   :D  (To inflict Tangled on a character, use these codes:  7EE19008 for the Boy, 7EE39008 for the Girl, and/or 7EE59008 on the Sprite.  Tangled's bit is wedged between Slow's bit and the one for Unconscious aka. Sleep.)

Tangled is from what I can tell an incomplete status defect, the only negative effect it seems to have is to disable the Targeting, Equip Armor and Action Grid options on a character's Ring Menu.  If that's really the only thing it affects, inflicting it on monsters would be monumentally pointless.  Also, I seem to recall Regrs saying that if something other than a cheat code were to inflict Tangled, it would only last for a single 'tick' unless the code for it was changed, wherever that is.

Slow in Vanilla stops a character from running and halves their walking speed, causing them to move with the same shuffling animation that is seen when charging a weapon and in certain cutscenes.  It does not seem to affect the rate of Stamina regeneration, though it does affect Hit% calculation in a rather... strange fashion.  Which likely should be NOP'd out, but no matter.  But on the other hand, while checking out all this wacky stuff, I did notice that in a Turbo-altered ROM, Slow does indeed halve the rate of Stamina regeneration.  That would logically imply that one of the mods/patches applicable by Turbo, changes the Slow status to have that effect, but right now I don't know which one.

Since you were surprised by it as well, Queue, I gather it's not one of your mods/patches.  I actually like the new effect, as that would probably affect monsters as well, whereas their movement speeds don't seem affected at all by Slow.  In either version of the game.  Not like Mr. Mushboom needs to walk any slower, but this very sadly makes Slow in Vanilla (almost) completely worthless, if it's true.  Except when inflicted by monsters, which is annoying for a few seconds at least.

In any case, the dummied-out state of Tangled does present an opportunity to add a new status defect to the game, that is more functional and lasts longer than a 'tick'.  I haven't really got any ideas about what that new defect should be, or what attacks/weapons to add it to, though.  Nor would I know how to change the function of any status defect.   :-[

I feel I must apologize for the lengthy explanation, sadly I couldn't think of a way to make it any more concise without confusing the issue even further.  Hope this helps, at least a little.  If it doesn't, again I don't blame you...  :)

I have restarted the process of writing up and formatting data tables, for SoM Vanilla, in Google Docs.  Which is better than Wordpad in at least some respects.  Here's the Link again in case this Post starts a new page:

Secret of Mana Information (Vanilla)
MASTER LINK:  Secret of Mana Information (Vanilla)

"Yes, the Author is indeed a horse!"  <zool>


I suspect you're mixing up Tangled (0x0004) and Paralyzed (the dummied out status effect, 0x0008). Tangled is the effect that makes the stats screen show Slowed Down, but pretty much everywhere else is called Tangled. You have things straight in your data tables.

I've been referring to status effect 0x0001 as "busy" since it's set while opening a treasure chest. If I recall correctly it stops some animations from playing, presumably to prevent them from interfering with the chest opening animation.

Speed_Up_-_Faster_Recharge appears to be what makes Tangled status affect recharge speed, though that isn't something I remembered (it's a feature from zhaDe's New Gameplay Improvement). Despite having basically worked on Secret of Mana daily for the past 7 months, there are still parts of zhaDe's code I haven't explored, let alone vanilla Secret of Mana code. I've sometimes described doing something Secret of Mana related "over coffee" and I often literally mean it; my morning routine has taken on picking away at SoM code while reading the news and sipping a mug of coffee. But a little time each day for 7 months has given me plenty of time to forget things.

As for the dummied out status, paralyzed, if left as-is is a bit on the boring side; balloon, petrify, sleep, engulf and frosty are all forms of paralysis. I'm mulling over a new spell effect but I intend for it to be beneficial, and sorta doubt I'd need to hijack the status effect system to implement it (probably going to have it be a mutually exclusive option with lucid barrier instead, so can use the lucid barrier variables to maintain state).

Oh, and the new data tables are looking beautiful.


Yes, Paralyzed was how Regrs referred to it as well.  Only HHS called it Tangled, but I'm not sure if that's what confused hmsong, or even if he is confused.  So that set me off rambling endlessly again, haha.   :-[

Yes, status 0x0001 only gets set by a character opening a chest, and disables some animations.

Glad you like the new tables, sorry to say I haven't worked on them yet today, but I'm all set up to do that right now.  No worries about forgetting, or not yet knowing everything, about zhaDe's mods.  We can only do so much with the time we have.   :)

Alright, back to the tables I go.  Hope you have a good one...
MASTER LINK:  Secret of Mana Information (Vanilla)

"Yes, the Author is indeed a horse!"  <zool>


@Queue @zoolgremlin

Holy crap guys.  zoolgremlin explained it so well (about Tangled/Slow (beyond my knowledge, really).  I really can't add anything more to it.  Thank you.

About Dispel Magic.  I was referring to that if I were to use Dispel effect on another spell (ex: Freeze), then when I use Dispel on Walled enemy, it would bounce back (the magic levels were all maxed) and the spell would dispel my characters.  However, if I were to use the original Dispel on the same Walled enemy (after the Wall was refreshed new), it would ignore Wall and just dispel the Wall on the intended target.

Also, is there any way I can use the new "accuracy/eva down" effect on other spells?  I want to add that effect to Lucent Beam, but since that didn't exist among the original spells (except one of random Lunar Magic effects), I couldn't add it.  Please help?

Also, can you put up the ZPS syntex for the [Herbal Boost] patch that Kethinov put online?  Although I'm not particularly interested in the spells themselves, I want to know how to switch names, graphics, and colors of the spell.  I can change the element and effect myself.  I want to learn to switch Fire Bouquet with another spell (so that Primm would have access to attack magic other than Salamander and Lumina elements).

Or better yet, maybe you can explain to me how to do those things, as you did with all other things you taught me.  I was able to absorb and apply those knowledge (truly thank you for that).

Mr X

Not sure how possible it is to do tweaks like these, but I was thinking of something pretty crazy the other day, in terms of making the dark lich more challenging and interesting for a final boss. He really doesnt need all these elemental spells to cast. What I was thinking:

Remove the undine/gnome/sylphid spells of his except hp absorb

Of course he has the shade spells

As replacements give him as lunar magic, mp absorb, moon energy, and moon saber but this one with a twist, he casts Moon Saber onto your party like the gigas bosses, him being undead you know what that means. :o


@Mr X

Moon Saber (or all sabers, really) is easy to get rid of -- switch weapons.  Lunar Magic isn't gonna do much either, since it can actually RESTORE HP/MP to your entire party.  MP Absorb is gonna be annoying.

But this'll make Mana Beast challenging -- Make him cast Lucid Barrier instead of Wall.  In short, the only way to damage Mana Beast is to use Dispel on Mana Beast, and then have Randi damage it in the short window before Mana Beast casts Lucid Barrier again.  Coincidentally, this'll give Popoi something to do in the final battle.

Of course, you would need to make it so that Dispel Magic actually gets rid of Lucid Barrier.


Quote from: Queue on September 13, 2019, 06:41:46 PM
- Fixed compatibility issue between Magic\Early_Luna and Text\VWF_Edition (or Text\Relocalized)

Was this a bug in my original code, or in your port?



Okay, I must ask you again... this may actually be related to my previous [how do I apply acc/eva down on Lucent Beam] question.  Your new patch (190913) changed a lot with the Spell Tweak.  In the previous version, it looked like:


' earth slide, power
RAW 38

' freeze, power
@OFF $D02C5A
RAW 38

' fireball, power

' lava wave, power
@OFF $D02E5A
RAW 34

' thunderbolt, power
@OFF $D02F9A
RAW 41

But now, it looks like:


@OFF %Spell.Data.Earth_Slide%Power%
RAW 38

@OFF %Spell.Data.Freeze%Power%
RAW 38

@OFF %Spell.Data.Fireball%Power%

@OFF %Spell.Data.Lava_Wave%Power%
RAW 34

@OFF %Spell.Data.Thunderbolt%Power%
RAW 41

So if I wanted to edit the pwr/cost/target/effect of spells, what do I do?  Previously, I did something like this:

' moon energy, target
@OFF $D03218
RAW 01

' moon energy, cost
@OFF $D0321F
RAW 04

' dark force, power
@OFF $D0341A

' dark force, damage + status effect
@OFF $C8E84B
ADR.16 $C8EBE5

' dark force, + poison
@OFF $D0341D
RAW 00 20

But obviously, I can't do that anymore.  I assume you changed the format, because it had something to do with applying the new effects (new NPC Evil Gate, Speed Down effects, etc).  I assume you made things easier to edit (for you, at least), since you may do more of this stuff.  Please help?


zoolgremlin, I found what HHS was talking about: stats screen messages for status effects are imperfect. It looks like it has messages for status effect 0x0004 and 0x0008 backwards, refers to confusion as "DIZZY" and being dead as "UNCONSCIOUS" (while it calls what is called elsewhere unconscious, "SLEEPING"). Among other minor issues. I'll probably type out a quick bug fix so it at least has the tangled and paralyze messages in order (of note, paralyze isn't the official name for status 0x0008; the game only refers to it as "can't move!" and, arguably, "SLOWED DOWN").

Mr X, definitely possible, though I don't think I'm especially interested in tackling that at this time. Here's the data for his AI that handles casting spells:
[08: Cast Spell: 'Evil Gate' On 'Current Target']
02E972: 00 EB00         ;Play Animation: BossAnimationScript_DarkLich_SpellCast_EvilGate.
02E975: 0E 24 00        ;Cast Spell: Evil Gate. Target: Current Target.
02E978: FF              ;End Command Subset.

[09: Cast Spell: 'HP Absorb' On 'Current Target']
02E979: 00 EC00         ;Play Animation: BossAnimationScript_DarkLich_SpellCast_HPAbsorb.
02E97C: 0E 08 00        ;Cast Spell: HP Absorb. Target: Current Target.
02E97F: FF              ;End Command Subset.

[0A: Cast Spell: 'Dark Force' On 'Current Target']
02E980: 00 ED00         ;Play Animation: BossAnimationScript_DarkLich_SpellCast_DarkForce.
02E983: 0E 25 00        ;Cast Spell: Dark Force. Target: Current Target.
02E986: FF              ;End Command Subset.

[0B: Cast Spell: 'Dispel Magic' On 'Current Target']
02E987: 00 EE00         ;Play Animation: BossAnimationScript_DarkLich_SpellCast_DispelMagic.
02E98A: 0E 26 00        ;Cast Spell: Dispel Magic. Target: Current Target.
02E98D: FF              ;End Command Subset.

[0C: Cast Spell: 'Thunderbolt' On 'Current Target']
02E98E: 00 EF00         ;Play Animation: BossAnimationScript_DarkLich_SpellCast_Thunderbolt.
02E991: 0E 13 00        ;Cast Spell: Thunderbolt. Target: Current Target.
02E994: FF              ;End Command Subset.

[0D: Cast Spell: 'Earth Slide' On 'Current Target']
02E995: 00 F000         ;Play Animation: BossAnimationScript_DarkLich_SpellCast_EarthSlide.
02E998: 0E 00 00        ;Cast Spell: Earth Slide. Target: Current Target.
02E99B: FF              ;End Command Subset.

[0E: Cast Spell: 'Freeze' On 'Current Target']
02E99C: 00 F100         ;Play Animation: BossAnimationScript_DarkLich_SpellCast_Freeze.
02E99F: 0E 06 00        ;Cast Spell: Freeze. Target: Current Target.
02E9A2: FF              ;End Command Subset.

kethinov, functionally my port (specifically when adding support for VWF / Relocalized). Event 7FC is unused in vanilla, but used in VWF Edition (and so also Relocalized). I thought I verified 7FC was unused in VWF but I was incorrect. I moved the event to 7F2 which definitely probably maybe I hope is unused in VWF.

hmsong, you can continue to use the manually entered address form (i.e. $D02ADA), for spell data, but I set up variable names for the basic spell data entries to try and make things easier. An example:
' moon energy, target
@OFF $D03218
RAW 01

could instead be
@OFF %Spell.Data.Moon_Energy%Target%
RAW Spell.Target.Allies

Search the ZPS for "\SpellDataDefinitions.adf" to see valid vanilla values and "/01 SSE." to see extended stat values. (I'll add better search labels for the next version, like I currently have for "SPELL DATA")

Spell functions do require using the SSE.Func.* variable names if Spell_System_Extensions is On.
' dark force, damage + status effect
@OFF $C8E84B
ADR.16 $C8EBE5

@OFF Spell.List.Dark_Force
ADR.16 SSE.Func.Detrimental.DamageAndEffects

though SSE.Func.Detrimental.DamageAndStatsAndEffects would also work and the efficiency loss is negligible. Honestly, every basic damaging spell could be changed to SSE.Func.Detrimental.DamageAndStatsAndEffects and the stats and effects part would simply be ignored if stat or effect in that spell's data is 0.

Adding a stat change to Lucent Beam would involve setting Spell.List.Lucent_Beam to SSE.Func.Detrimental.DamageAndStats (or DamageAndStatsAndEffects) and setting its spell data for stat changes (%Spell.Data.Lucent_Beam%Stat%); refer to the aforementioned extended stat values to see what numbers mean which stats up/down.

I did get Kethinov's Herbal Boost hack imported so that'll be available next release. I also hammered out a Shadow Saber spell.



Thank you.  I'll play around with it to see how I can use the new spell functions.  I hope it's not TOO complicated for me to figure out.

Also, thank you in advance for uploading Herbal Boost.  I'd really like to change the names/color of some spells, after switching places with other spells.

Shadow Saber?  I'm guessing it's replacing Evil Gate?  The sound of that spell seems REALLY cool  However, what will it do, other than doing Shade damage?  Poison?  Not too many tough enemies (by that point in game) are weak against Shade element (only Dread Slime and that chain guy in the final dungeon area).  Then again, Evil Gate was terrible too (but it had a cool blackhole animation).

You saidd that you have 20 more spell slots?  Does that mean you're thinking about adding more spell varieties? (ex: instead of 3 spells per element per character, there would be 4 spells?)  That would be amazing.

I must say, wow.  Engulf and Poison is super deadly.  On my Lv99 Randi, Sleep Flower from that plant enemy in the mountains did 300+ damage, and Blaze Wall from Beast Zombie did almost 500 damage.  Way more than what Mana Beast can do to you.  Perhaps a bit TOO deadly?  I wish Engulf didn't overshadow Poison and Balloon so much though (well, Poison lasts longer than Engulf, I think).


Hi, everyone.  Whoa, a lot of discussion points came up all of a sudden!   :o

@Queue  About the Stat screen messages, now that you mention it that makes perfect sense, I just hadn't given it much thought.  If it's the message system that's faulty, as well as the status defects themselves, I should go and find where the data for all the messages are.

Last time, I forgot to say that you really got my attention, with the idea for a new spell effect that is mutually exclusive with Lucid Barrier.  But then I put it to one side in my mind, when going back to writing up and editing the new table documents.  Sorry about that, didn't mean to ignore your idea.  I am also not against a Shadow Saber, just don't know if I personally would replace Evil Gate with it.  But of course, that's not my decision.  I occasionally did wonder why there were 8 Elements and only 7 Sabers, 6 if you don't count Mana Magic.  My best guess is that lack of development time, forced Square to abandon putting in 3 more spells for Shade and Lumina.

I was able to use Herbal Boost (and Harder Final Boss) along with the ZPS, using the patcher's Edit Chain menu, they did not cause any compat issues that I could see in-game.  But I didn't think to mention that earlier, since the discussion was already aimed at other things.  Hmmmm...

Also, I am willing to check the Moon Saber update and the spell system update, and will do so sometime today or tomorrow.  Got plenty of time for it.  Ermm...  :laugh:

@hmsong  Oh, so that's what you meant about Dispel Magic.  I'll try it myself and see how it works in-game.  Can't see how that would happen or even be possible.  How bizarre!

But it's good to hear you liked the (looooong) explanation about Slow&Tangle (or Tangle&Mr. Dummy Status, craaaaazy...).   :thumbsup:
MASTER LINK:  Secret of Mana Information (Vanilla)

"Yes, the Author is indeed a horse!"  <zool>

Mr X

Queue Ok thanks. Hm perhaps I should get myself into learning SoM hacking and be able to contribute  :)

Oh a Shadow Saber sounds nice. Wonder if that one empty spot will be used so that the Girl will be able to cast shade magic also. It always bothered me why weren't the Sprite and the Girl be able to cast lumima or shade while having one missing slot for a spirit. Of will that be just the Sprites fourth shade spell?

I agree with the assessement above that not many enemies and bosses are weak to shade, those that are weak to shade are mixed with undead enemies most of the times so you wont use it either. Except dread slime the only boss you may ever wanna use it against.

Personally I never found myself in a situation where I had to use especially saber magic on enemy mobs.

I noticed there is no enemy that is also weak to dryad also. I just use his burst on an undead/weak to lumina or non elemental enemy which may be intended that way?

September 15, 2019, 01:59:34 AM - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)

Poison status and engulf sure have become powerful. I dont have any issue with that so far tho, I am not really overleveled and am managing just fine.

It refarins enemies from becoming far weaker also or you becoming too powerful. I remember at some point at the original game I played poorly just so the enemies/bosses may have a chance at my party, that's how unbalanced the original game is imo, you simply become too powerful, spells aren't set to be used properly you just spammed your strongest spell, useless spells and so on.

Turbo has improved drastically over such things imo, tho I still refrain my characters reaching too high levels but this is still being updated regularly.


@Mr X

Yeah, SoM isn't really a difficult game.  But it doesn't change the fact that it's so fun.  And with Turbo patch, things are becoming just awesome.

Personally, I would have liked "takes long time to summon a spirit for a spell to come out" than "magic recoil".  Similar to SD3.  That way, if Queue makes things so that spell casting can be interrupted, the spells become a lot more difficult to use (and chaining would be very difficult, if possible at all).  It wouldn't affect monsters casting speed though (nor their spells can be interrupted), since monsters have natural magic (although limited).


I'm sure you already have your own ideas about Shadow Saber, but would it be possible to make it so that Shadow Saber weapons cut the HP by 50%, in addition to the actual damage?  Similar to what Petrify does.  Only to non-Shade enemies, of course (thereby sort-of implementing the Evil Gate).  That way, Shadow Saber would actually be useful, at least, against all non-Shade regular enemies.

Speaking of which, Can you make it so that Petrify isn't so damn OP?  That thing is ridiculous.

Mr X

hmsong that is a neat idea. That way dispel would be used to interrupt your party to cast a spell also.

Another option is make dispel also work in a way that when used on a character besides clearing every shield/buff, it gives the sprite or the girl also "magic recoil".

September 15, 2019, 05:32:29 AM - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)

Quote from: hmsong on September 14, 2019, 06:52:15 PM
@Mr X

Moon Saber (or all sabers, really) is easy to get rid of -- switch weapons.  Lunar Magic isn't gonna do much either, since it can actually RESTORE HP/MP to your entire party.  MP Absorb is gonna be annoying.

But this'll make Mana Beast challenging -- Make him cast Lucid Barrier instead of Wall.  In short, the only way to damage Mana Beast is to use Dispel on Mana Beast, and then have Randi damage it in the short window before Mana Beast casts Lucid Barrier again.  Coincidentally, this'll give Popoi something to do in the final battle.

Of course, you would need to make it so that Dispel Magic actually gets rid of Lucid Barrier.

I just saw this post, my bad.

Oh damn, didn't really think of that. It kinda takes away from the gigas bosses also being able to do that, maybe in the future when that gets "fixed" I guess. One way would be if Moon saber gets casted on your sword you will have either to use light saber back if you wanna keep using the sword, a herb, or switch to another weapon, but even if you switch back to the sword the effect wont be removed till it gets naturally or via some saber magic/herb item.

I was thinking of making Lunar magic more useful. And yeah that's the thing with mp absorb, and the theme behind an undead enemy - steal your lifeforce in form of HP and MP, should be difficult to kill them, and why I thought of him using spells like these anyway, freeze, earth slide, thunder storm are redundant for him to use when he has dark force of similar power or evil gate, buff himself up with Moon energy which you may wanna use dispel or his physical based attacks will be a pain in the ass.

That would be cool, Mana Beast fight with the barrier instead of wall. Barrier, dispel and lucent beam should be enough for him, or if I wanna be a little unfair, add a fourth spell like flame saber on himself, fitting for a dragon engulfing your party with his attacks, so you may wanna have some engulf resisting ring equiped. While hid dispel could undo your mana sword magic, buffs.

Makes more effective uses of equipment and strategy to fight them.