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Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 231108

Started by Queue, January 31, 2019, 06:45:12 PM

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Version 2019-08-25:

- Added version number within ZPS file
- Implemented Miscellaneous\Day_Night_Cycle\_No_Morning_Or_Evening option (off by default), in case you want vanilla daytime, and mod-added nighttime but not morning or evening, for some reason
- Implemented Bug_Fixes\Boss_Loader_Buffer_Overflow; this was the cause of a glitchy out of bounds tile during the Frost Gigas fight
- Implemented Bug_Fixes\Text_Box_Palette_Loader; this was the cause of the oddly colored text box backgrounds in the text box edit screen when using Graphics\Alternate_Text_Boxes
- Implemented Bug_Fixes\Flakey_Snowflakes; this was related to seeing sword-shaped snow during the ending credits
- Disallowed Technical\Safe_Save_State functionality during the Mana Beast fight
- Added a deadlock safety to Technical\Safe_Save_State unpausing
- Tidy map treatment for the far north edge of Spring Beak's fight room
- Slight vertical size increase to Frost Gigas's fight room (not walkable space, just the out of bounds area)
- Tidy map treatment for the Thunder Gigas's fight room
- Tidy map treatment for the Wind Palace entrance

zoolgremlin, thanks again for the annotated screenshots. The Frost Gigas one turned out to be absurd: the code that loads his graphics was corrupting memory where the room's graphics had already been loaded; that's what was making that weird out of bounds spot instead of there being anything wrong with the map data. I then assumed the Thunder Gigas was the same issue, but nope, that was just sloppiness by whoever made his fight room. The Spring Beak room was a surprising amount of work to fix considering how simple it appeared, but any time you have to change room dimensions to fix a visual issue (as was the case here, the room needed to be made taller) it can get complicated. I scouted out the Northtown Ruins door, and think it along with a Northtown Castle door with a similar issue can be fixed at the same time, but didn't get to that yet. The Pandora Castle shadows should be cake, and I'll probably get to them over a morning cup of coffee. Gold Isle and the field west of Pandora are probably going to take multiple hours each so I'll just chip away at them as able. I didn't look for that... Tasnica shadow I think is what I'm seeing, nor Hexas's fight room, yet, but I suspect those won't be too bad. Lofty mountains I haven't assessed but I suspect that'll be a big one. The Sunken Continent / Grand Palace / Underground City entrance one you noticed may not be reasonably fixable: I spent hours adjusting it for Miscellaneous\Revisit_Sunken_Continent and that straight edge you saw was a compromise at the edge of the map (right there is where it wraps horizontally) to fit in all the other necessary map changes; I may take another stab at it some day but it's not high on my list of priorities.

Mr X, in my defense, I didn't pick the colors: those are the colors those various items had assigned to them (as seen on their inventory icons) by the game's original developers. Personally, I think pink is overrepresented and too many items have identical palettes, but I defer to the artistic choices of the original devs. Currently, my only plan is to adjust the girl's sprites so she uses the hand (accessory) slot item color better (instead of mostly in her hair), and it's going to be a ton of work.

Mr X

An odd thing I ran into, sometimes the javelin or the boomearing resets back to previous levels just when I am about to level it up with the Hero. I have weapon experience value set to B not sure if it has something to do with that.


@Queue  Good to hear from you again, and thanks for the latest update.  Hope you don't burn yourself out on this project, I think it's best if you just go at your own pace.  It'll be done when it's done, basically.   :)

There's a lot of good information here regarding the map fixes, where to start?  I haven't seen any further map issues other than the ones I screenshotted, so that's real progress right there.   :thumbsup:

The indoor castle room you weren't quite sure about is indeed in Tasnica, it's a room you don't even have to go to at any point in the game.  So here are the directions for it:

From the first room you enter in the castle (the one with the Jema cutscene that starts off with "Jema:  [CharNameBoy]!  I hardly recognized you!"), go through the archway on the far left and through the door above the staircase, then go north through two rooms and you're there.  Since players can get to the fake King scene and back without entering that side of the castle, can't blame anyone for missing the incorrect shadow tile.

A similiar sort of issue arises with the incorrect Sunken Continent tile.  Basically, you wouldn't notice this sort of thing as a player unless you were looking for it, as we were.  Given that Regrs has already stated, that the Grand Palace exterior is the most complicated map in the game (the two versions of it are the same map with set-pieces turned on or off, depending on the value of an Event Control Flag), it's already great that you were able to do stuff with it.  So it doesn't matter if a single tile is slightly off, is what I think.   :)

I somehow missed the door trigger tile being visible in the Emperor's Castle, oops.  Must've not checked a couple of rooms thoroughly enough, damn.

And sorry to hear about the Frost Gigas room issue being so difficult, I never would've guessed it was caused by memory corruption.  Even though I've read so much about how sloppy the game's code is, in Vanilla.

About changing the size of rooms, I used no-clip in a few places to see how the maps wrap-around, and could see that some rooms are/were not quite big enough to hide out-of-bounds issues with [Scroll_Hack], such as Gold Isle.  It hadn't quite occurred to me that Spring Beak's arena had the size issue, but I did notice it in Lofty Mountains, for example.  Perhaps I should've put a note about that in the screenshot.  But again, it'll be done when it's done.

What makes these patches and this project so grand is this:  It's like the game is getting the clean-and-polish it never got from Square.  Great job, Queue, you're doing very well.  Cheers!   8)
MASTER LINK:  Secret of Mana Information (Vanilla)

"Yes, the Author is indeed a horse!"  <zool>


Version 2019-08-27:

- Tidy map treatment for Pandora Castle (shadow tops in stool hallway and arch over left staircase in entry room)
- Tidy map treatment for Minotaur fight room (single tile over top exit doorway)
- Tidy map treatment for Tasnica Castle (shadow top in u-turn room)
- Fixed out-of-bounds door visibility in Ice Palace, Northtown Castle and Northtown Ruins (simple fixes, either moving them farther out-of-bounds, or hiding them behind foreground walls)

Mr X, when you say it resets back to previous levels you mean the boy's maximum charge level / weapon level right (not the weapon itself reverting to a lower level version of itself)? So it requires even more grinding to level? Does it lose a level or just stay the same but drop back to low / no exp into the current level?

zoolgremlin, I tackled quite a few things over coffee; the out-of-bounds doors turned out to be trivial fixes (I had planned something more complicated but it was unnecessary), and I knocked out some castle shadows while I was at it.

The Frost Gigas issue was actually fun to fix because it was so absurd. They knew there was a buffer overflow risk and had code to try and avoid it, but it still went one byte too far, which is why it was only that single tile getting corrupted. Having looked at the guts of many games over the years (all Win32 x86 code, aside from SoM), by computer programming standards, SoM seems pretty normal in code sloppiness to me, but I don't have any experience with other SNES game's code to compare against. The garbage compilers output is far messier than what a human writing assembly does and ends up obfuscating sloppy high-level code. Human-written assembly (most if not all SNES code) generally has to be kept logical to a human mind to not confuse themselves as they're working on it.

Don't worry about noting things like if you think rooms are too small, etc.; suggestions of that sort likely won't be helpful as it boils down to me puzzling out the best way to fix a room, and that generally depends on what the room's data looks like when I go inspect it since I have to fit the changes in without changing how much data the map uses in the ROM (it's not something I expect someone to be able to reasonably intuit unless they've done some SoM map edits in a hex editor). Widening rooms is arguably impossible for many rooms (not enough space to make the necessary changes to fit it in the same space), and when it's possible it's usually EXTREMELY difficult. Increasing their height is usually easy, but there are exceptions, like when there are trees at the far top or bottom edge. Neither is usually necessary though, as I can often design a map edge that seamlessly wraps, among other options.

Don't worry about burn out. If I do, I do, and honestly I do kinda want to be done with SoM, but I've been messing with it nearly daily since January, so... I have a bucket list of sorts, where once those are complete I'll probably be done, but I haven't gotten to all of them yet and new things to do keep popping up and delaying them getting completed.


A youtuber/hd texturer named Nerrel mentioned this hack in his latest video on collection of Mana and the remake of SoM, he basically said there is no reason to play the remake with this hack existing. While I think the translation and extra story scenes are good reason to play the remake (after playing the original) he is mostly right. Also I wish more improvement hacks would be modular like this one!


@Queue  Wow, we're damn lucky to be getting the next update so quick!   :woot!:

No, I haven't used a hex editor before.  I've noted a few times through the thread that your updates to [Tidy_Map_Pieces] have included fixes to map tiles that I didn't notice were wrong.  Your eye for detail appears to be much keener than mine, heh.  :-[

Not being a programmer myself (in 65816 assembly language or any other), I wouldn't know how "sloppy" the code is.  I probably misspoke.  Mostly, when I read about problems in the game, it's about things that are dummied out or don't work as intended or very well, and I'm mostly relying on Regrs' insight here, and a bit from HHS on TASVideos (EDIT) and yourself, since you and they seem to know more about the code than most, or at least myself.  Some of the things that I've heard Regrs talk about, and which you would be familiar with:

- Weakness to Luna and Dryad being forcefully removed from enemies that should have them.  I think that counts as dummied out, since the functionality wasn't removed altogether, and can be restored.  Luna has no damage spell apart from Magic Absorb (which only affects MP and therefore can't kill anything in this game), whereas Dryad at least has Burst.  I assume that's why the devs thought Luna/Dryad weakness was not worth keeping in Vanilla. I'm still racking my brains, trying to work out how Moonlight and Wood oppose each other as elemental forces.   How would you even damage something with Moonlight, anyway?  I suppose the same could be said of Darkness, if you mean literal darkness/shadows.  Why would the Wood element allow you to explode stuff with "hidden energy"?  But that's not a code problem, just me wondering about the weird physical laws of the game world.  :laugh:

- The game being very bad about overusing variables.  I would have to look through the GameFAQs thread I've mentioned before to find his examples of that.   :-[

- Boss AI being flawed, such as Mech Rider III repeatedly casting Speed Up on himself after casting Wall, which only helps you rather than him.  Or the Mana Beast having Lucid Barrier as a spell in its ability list, but never fulfilling the condition needed to cast the spell.  Probably counts as not intended.

Whereas the removal of Luna/Dryad weakness appears to be deliberate, I would guess that stuff like faulty boss AI could have been fixed by the original devs if they'd had the time.  But a development cycle for a commercial game only goes for so long, before the publishers decide the game needs to start making money instead of costing it.

I do seem to ramble on a bit, for a guy who doesn't "hack ROMs", haha.  About the weapon level reset bug/glitch that Mr. X mentioned, I have also experienced that, but I only have one save state right now where it's happening.  I'll post more about my experience with that once I've experimented a bit more with it.  Cheers!

August 28, 2019, 05:59:17 PM - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)

Okay, hopefully I won't get in trouble posting twice in such a short time, heh.   :-[

UPDATE:  Concerning the WpnLV reset, I tested levelling up the Boomerang and Javelin with all three characters.  I also tested with most other weapons on all three characters, which is not quite thorough.  But so far, the bug has only occurred with the Boomerang and Javelin.  And it has not occurred with the Girl and the Sprite, only with the Boy.

Specifically, I noticed the two nibble values stored in memory address 7EE1C3 (high nibble = Boy's Boomerang Level, low nibble = Boy's Javelin Level, as shown on the Weapon Level screen) getting overwritten with another value, possibly pulled from somewhere else.  (EDIT:  I was assuming there is no function call to set or decrement weapon levels at any time, but there has to be at least one:  The Start New Game Event and/or the New Character Joined Event.  My bad  :-[).  In my case the value that gets written to either nibble, depending on the weapon equipped, is always 0000.  This value was not set when weapon experience was awarded for a kill, whether by the Boy himself, or an ally.

Instead, what I noticed is that I would kill enemies and gain weapon XP/LVs with the Boy for a while, with no trouble, then the value would be set to 0000 at some point after moving on from the last kill.  I tried using Fast Forward on SNES9x while standing still near the last kill for a while, to see if it would happen without moving anywhere, but so far it hasn't.  It would only happen when I moved to some other point on the map.  Looking for another enemy to kill.

Also, to answer the question you asked Mr X, the bug does not reset weapon XP, only weapon Levels.  And oh yeah, the weapon does not revert to an earlier version of itself.

Interestingly enough, when the bug happens, I can still charge up the Boomerang or Javelin to the value either weapon was, before being reset.  The game seems to check the value at address 7EE19C to determine the maximum level the Boy can charge up to.  Ordinarily, that value would be the same as the one displayed on the Weapon Level screen, for whatever weapon is currently equipped.  When the bug happens, though, the value at 7EE19C does not change along with it straightaway.  That only gets reset when the Boy gains a new level for the currently equipped weapon.  EDIT:  Or when the Boy changes weapon.  Both of which are normal behaviour.  :)

Hope that all helps, but if you like I can send a copy of my save state and .ini by Linking to them later on.  It's not that bad a bug, just a bit weird.  If it caused all the enemies to duckwalk before Blue-Screening your device, it might be a bit worse.  :laugh:
MASTER LINK:  Secret of Mana Information (Vanilla)

"Yes, the Author is indeed a horse!"  <zool>


I'll do a long write-up later, but that was enough info to fix it, thanks a bunch. Very short version: it was a mistake on my part in Boy_Dislikes_Nuts. Whoops.

Edit: Okay, long write-up time.

First off, thanks again for pointing me at 7EE1C3, that alone potentially saved me lots of time. Also, having more eyes looking for sloppy map art is super helpful; it's not like I noticed those castle shadows for example. Hm, I hope Chicken Knife didn't think I was being dismissive on the Ice Palace graphical issues, re-reading what I wrote it kinda seems that way, but I really did appreciate it being pointed out as I hadn't spotted those either and I will fix them eventually.

Anyway, It was a bit of AI scripting code altering that memory address, but through no fault of the original SoM programmers. When an enemy spawns it runs an on-spawn AI script. Rabites' on-spawn script starts at the very first byte of a monolithic block of data holding AI scripts. And their on-spawn script begins with a call to another AI script; and the AI script bytecode for a call is 0xFF. In this case, FF 00 43 (call AI script 0x43 bytes forward).

So, when I made Boy_Dislikes_Nuts I fit the code addition necessary for it into an unused space in the ROM (somewhat) near the other item ring item use code, which also happens to be in the part of the ROM that contains enemy AI scripts. There's a chunk of a few dozen bytes all set to 0xFF, and it looked like a safe place to overwrite. The problem was, the last 0xFF wasn't unused, it was the first byte of the monolithic block of enemy AI scripts and had a specific purpose: the FF in FF 00 43 BD of the Rabite on-spawn AI script. My code replaced that FF with DB, which when used as an AI script command, means modify some actor data by ANDing it with a certain byte. The AI script became DB 00 43 BD, which means, when a Rabite spawns, read actor number 00's (which is the boy) data 0x0180 + 0x43, AND it with 0xBD, then write the result back. 0x0180 + 0x43 = 0x01C3, and the boy's data is at 7EE000, so 7EE000 + 0x01C3 = 7EE1C3. The value at 7EE1C3 & 0xBD will blot out certain values but not others; so when testing with a save where the boy has his weapons leveled up to 8, 0x88 & 0xBD = 0x88, so there's no visible change. But say you had both at 7, 0x77 & 0xBD = 0x35; you'd possibly notice that loss in levels.

Sooo, whoops. I moved the Boy_Dislikes_Nuts patch one byte back, did a little checking and hopefully am correct in my assessment that the other overwritten bytes really are unused.

Edit2: Bah, I also found a mistake in my No_Blats_To_Sell bug fix, so that'll be fixed in the next update as well. If you have a full item ring of 12 items the UI breaks.


Hey... no worries.  With a project of this scope and magnitude, the occasional hiccup is bound to happen.  I suspected the bug was only happening when I moved enough to spawn a new enemy, but wasn't sure.  I just happened to be fighting on the map west of Pandora, which has Rabite spawns, but wouldn't have guessed it was the Rabite's doing.  Those wacky hairballs...  :laugh:

When I checked the AND operation you mentioned with Windows Calculator in Programmer mode, I got exactly the results I saw in-game.  Fascinating stuff, thanks very much for the explanation.

I can certainly check to see how the two weapons level up again, in an area with Rabites.  The bit before Potos Village seems ideal for that.  At the same time, I am playing through a ROM with [Tidy_Map] on, and one with it off, to see the changes already made, and whether I spot any more map oddities not yet mentioned.  Between yourself, Chicken Knife, and me coming in at the last minute, I think that they've almost all been spotted by now.  Hope you have a good one...  8)
MASTER LINK:  Secret of Mana Information (Vanilla)

"Yes, the Author is indeed a horse!"  <zool>

Chicken Knife

Quote from: Queue on August 28, 2019, 07:47:48 PM
First off, thanks again for pointing me at 7EE1C3, that alone potentially saved me lots of time. Also, having more eyes looking for sloppy map art is super helpful; it's not like I noticed those castle shadows for example. Hm, I hope Chicken Knife didn't think I was being dismissive on the Ice Palace graphical issues, re-reading what I wrote it kinda seems that way, but I really did appreciate it being pointed out as I hadn't spotted those either and I will fix them eventually.
Don't worry at all. My overall impression has continued to be one of amazement at how committed you are to listening to and incorporating feedback.

The only reason I quieted down a bit is because sadly I've always found the latter portion of the game to be lacking compared to the early and middle portions. Earlier there are these spacious and magical feeling environments to explore but once you get Flammie it feels like it devolves into a town/temple/town/temple pattern that sucks quite a bit of the joy out of the affair for me. Sadly, I don't think any amount of your technical wizardry can solve a problem like this one.

I do want to push myself to finish since it's been years since I actually completed the game. Will let you know if anything else comes up.


Wow, the patch package is so nice.  Truly fine work.  Thank you so much.  I am seriously looking forward to your next patch (btw, having the date number instead of patch version was a fantastic idea).

I do have some requests/suggestions:

1. Similar to "Level 9 Weapons Progression Balance" and "No Missing Orb", could you make another patch with just the Axe and Glove orbs in the Underground City? (or Tree Palace)  That's what it was suppose to have anyways (probably).  That way, you would have 7 orbs of all weapons, and the final dungeon enemies carrying the 8th Orbs would make sense (instead of 7th and 8th for some weapons).  And Watts being in the Mana Fortress would make sense too.  Besides, I feel like having so many orbs (9~10 extra orbs) seem a bit overkill.

I also think having a legitimate way of obtaining 8th Sword orb is a great idea (assuming the 9th sword is powered down, as "Mana_Magic_Unequip_Fix" did).  I heard the original game Mana Tree checks if you have 7 orbs, and if you don't, it gives you additional sword orbs.  So maybe make it check all 8 orbs, instead of 7?  So in total, 3 orbs instead of 9~10.  That seems more reasonable.  Having a separate patch would be awesome, so people can choose which patch they'd like.

2. Can you change the effects of Lunar Magic spell?  That thing is literally useless, as it has random effects, both to enemies and allies.  If enemies were to use it, then it would make sense, but no enemies can use it.  Maybe make it lower the victim's physical stats? (Attack, P.Defense, Accuracy, Evasion)  Similar to Seiken Densetsu 3's Black Curse.  That way, it'll justify its absurd 8 MP cost, but still be somewhat useful.

3. At 8:99 spell level, when a spell is in effect, all game sprites freeze for the "cool effect" of the 3rd tier spells.  However, this also prevents the chain-spells, hence making them less effective than 1st/2nd spells.  So could you make a patch so that all tier spells would make the sprites freeze during the spell animation?  Similar to Seiken Densetsu 3.  That way, it'll disable chain-casting AND not make 3rd tier spells less useful than 1st/2nd tier spells.

I know that 2-second spell recoil patch exists, and yes, that does prevent chain-spells.  However, it still doesn't prevent 3rd tier spells being somewhat less useful (from a certain perspective), because you (the player) can do plenty of other things while the spell goes through the animation (use items, heal, attack other enemies who are not being attacked by a spell, etc), especially since the victim is frozen in place while the rest of the world is not.  For 3rd tier spells, the entire world is frozen, even the menu button.

4. Could you make it so that enemies can interrupt spell casting? (which will still consume MP, but the spell will not activate).  That way, players will have to think about using spells.  Players can't interrupt enemy spells though (except against Bite Lizards), since players summon Mana Spirits to use magic, whereas monsters use the magic themselves.

5. In "Neko and Watts in the Mana Fortress", can you get rid of all the monsters in the room with Neko, right before Dark Lich?  Seeing Neko surrounded powerful monsters seems... off.  Besides, I don't want to be surrounded by monsters the moment I load up the game.  I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way.  I know this is Kethinov's patch, so I contacted him first, but he didn't respond to my PM.  Perhaps because I should contact you first (as your patch package instructed).

6. Sometimes, when you use the Glove to a downed foe, you throw instead.  You can even use the charged attacks for different throws (shown in Youtube).  However, they don't do ANY damage.  So, could you make a patch where they do great damage or something?

I know this is a lot of requests.  Sorry about that.  And thank you.


Some updates to your existing packages:

- There is [Neko_And_Watts_In_Fortress] v1.2, but your package has v1.1.
- There is [Gaias_Navel_Treasure] v1.1, but your package has v1.0.
- There is [Restore_Unused_Fanfares] v1.2, but your package has v1.1.

These may just be txt error though.

Also, for [Magic_Recharging] hack, could you define which spells are Short magic, Medium Magic, and Long Magic Recharge?  At least in the txt part?


Mr X

Quote from: Queue on August 27, 2019, 06:18:53 PM

Mr X, when you say it resets back to previous levels you mean the boy's maximum charge level / weapon level right (not the weapon itself reverting to a lower level version of itself)? So it requires even more grinding to level? Does it lose a level or just stay the same but drop back to low / no exp into the current level?

Yeah I mean in terms of charge level it gets to reset back.

For example if I have Boomerang forged to 6, just when I am about to reach level 6 charge it resets randomly to to previous levels charge (sorry if for late reply and not explaining it properly).


Bug Report (for 190827):

If I enable [Quality_of_Life], [Equip_2nd_Weapon], [Text], [Relocalized], [Bug_Fixes], and [Elman_Stops_Stammering] at the same time, then start from blank (meaning, no .srm file), and then I start with Load Game part, all the saved filed (somehow, they exist) are all corrupt.

Please check.  I have a screenshot, but I don't know how to attach it.


@Queue : I want to ask, will you planning to start  "Trial of mana turbo" project in the future? :D


Bug Report:

[Later_Midge_Mallet] patch actually applies [Early_Midge_Mallet].  I haven't tried [Early_Midge_Mallet] though.

September 02, 2019, 02:17:14 AM - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)

These aren't bugs, but I'd appreciate it if you include these in the txt parts of the package:

1. [Reduce_Moon_Saber_Healing]: Doesn't show the recovered HP.  Also, if you lose HP by using this (such attacking Undead), then you lose full HP.
2. [Revisit_Sunken_Continent]: The bridge only activates if you talk to the girl in the palace after the Continent sinks again.
3. [King_Goes_To_Bed]: The King enters the room, but the Queen seems to go through the wall.
4. [Magic_Recharging]: As mentioned before, please describe WHICH magics are short/medium/long magic recharge.
5. [Scroll_Hack], [CPUs_Dont_Block_Screen]: When stepping on the Whip tile, and if the AI ally is too far (but not far enough to teleport), the game gets stuck.

September 02, 2019, 08:20:31 AM - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)

Bug Report:

I'm not sure which patch caused this (I had a lot of them enabled), but I'm guessing it's either Faerie Coconut or Faerie Coconut Graphic.  In any case, the moment I got the 12th item (in my case, Moogle Belt), the graphic of Item section got all screwed up, and I was only able to choose 2 items (depending on which I had selected last).  If I used up one of the items, then the item menu goes back to normal, but as soon as I get the 12th item, it gets screwed up again.  Please check.

September 03, 2019, 12:14:25 AM - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)

Bug Report (revised):

Okay, I figured out which patch is causing the 12th item's presence (such as Faerie Coconut) causes the entire item circle to glitch up:  [No_Blats_To_Sell].  Not sure why though.  Please check.


Version 2019-09-02:

Pretty big update.

- Slight tweaks to Magic\Magic_Recharging regarding which spells have long, medium and short cooldowns. Search the ZPS file for \tbl_magicRechargeTime.asm to see specific spell classifications.
- Implemented Magic\Moon_Saber_-_Reversible; gives same inverted healing behavior on ghosts as on undead.
- Implemented Items\Farmable_Sword_Orb; moves Spear Orb drop from Tsunamis to Turtlances, and gives Tsunamis a Sword Orb drop.
- Added more info to Items\No_Missing_Orb's description; no change to functionality.
- Implemented Items\Mana_Fortress_Rarity_Swap; any weapon orb dropper's rare drop (their weapon orb) and common drop (usually equipment) is exchanged so the weapon orbs take less farming, while the desirable equipment is rarer.
- Added more info to Balance\Reduce_Moon_Saber_Healing's description and changed healing reduction formula to round up instead of down (e.g. 33 / 2 = 17 instead of 16, 1 / 2 = 1 instead of 0).
- Verified and incremented Quality_of_Life\Neko_And_Watts_In_Fortress version number from 1.1 to 1.2, and fixed a bug that was my fault that enabled the teleporters in Mech Rider III's fight room. If you see this Kethinov, I had made a mistake when adding the song auto event so you'll want to update your release with this change as well.
- Removed (Experimental) status from Graphics\Functional_Fashion.
- Verified and incremented Audio\Restore_Unused_Fanfares version number from 1.1 to 1.2; no change to functionality.
- Removed (Experimental) status from Miscellaneous\Day_Night_Cycle, implemented sky color change when flying, implemented dynamic distance fog when flying, replaced sun with moon during Flammie launch at night, added a few more minor enemy night spawn changes.
- Added more info to Miscellaneous\Revisit_Sunken_Continent's description; no change to functionality.
- Added Kethinov's Miscellaneous\Remove_Empire_Castle_Gate version 1.1; tiny change to his hack to make the bonus throne room chest immovable.
- Updated Kethinov's Miscellaneous\Gaias_Navel_Treasure from version 1.1 to 1.2 and added a sub-option _Navel_Immodesty to boost the now baseline 50gp chest to 1000gp.
- Improved Bug_Fixes\Whip_Post_Fix; now avoids memory corruption caused by text boxes that would interfere with whip post behavior (e.g. stand on whip post gathering spot, land a critical on an enemy which causes a text box to show, whip post wouldn't work until you step off then back on the gathering spot).
- Changed Technical\Disable_Checksum_Bypass into Technical\Checksum_Bypass (off by default) and improved the description.
- Slight adjustment to Combat\Strong_And_Weak_Attacks: sword and glove directional attacks (thrust and kick) have slightly less animation delay (makes them feel slightly more responsive).
- Fixed some messy tiles in Hexas's fight room, part of Bug_Fixes\Boss_Rendering_Fix.
- Fixed bug in Bug_Fixes\No_Blats_To_Sell; if you had 12 different items, the item ring was seriously broken.
- Fixed bug in Quality_of_Life\Boy_Dislikes_Nuts; caused a Rabite spawning to potentially de-level the boy's boomerang and/or javelin weapon level.

Mr X, no sweat, the bug is now squashed. =) It was caused by Quality_of_Life\Boy_Dislikes_Nuts (and Rabites).

pftmclub, not likely. While I think Trials of Mana is visually beautiful, I don't actually like it very much. It surprises me how different a game it is from Secret of Mana (in ways I don't like) while being superficially so similar.

hmsong, it'll take me a while to respond to all you posted; a fair bit of things you mention made it into this update, but I'll hammer out itemized responses to you tomorrow afternoon. Already burned the time I had tonight on this changelog.


Thank you.

September 03, 2019, 03:44:11 AM - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)

I hope the Turtlelance's Sword Orb isn't farmable when you face it in the Tree Palace.  Otherwise, Thunder Gigas dropping another Sword Orb will be a problem (I think it resets the total Orbs collected).  Not to mention that Sword may have all 8 orbs, while other weapons will have at most 5~6 orbs.  Why not simply replace an enemy in the Mana Fortress with a Sword Orb chest?  Specifically, the one next to the final Neko?  And while at it, why not replace two enemies in the Tree Palace (or Ancient City) with a Glove Orb and an Axe Orb?  I feel like that's something that many people would like (myself included).

I hope you consider my suggestion.


Quote from: hmsong on August 31, 2019, 07:24:25 PM
I do have some requests/suggestions:
1) The point of Kethinov's Weapons Progression Balance having so many orb chests, etc. is so you don't have to get the final orb per weapon as drops in the Mana Fortress (which is a pretty boring, grindy process), you get the correct amount per weapon to level them all to 9 at the end of the game. zhaDe's No_Missing_Orb should result in there being an even balance of orbs when you hit the Mana Fortress (all weapons level 8). I'm not inclined to add a third option to hit the Mana Fortress with all at 8, especially when I personally use Weapons Progression Balance.

The Mana Tree doesn't check before setting your sword orbs to 7, it just sets it blindly. It also sets all weapons maximum orbs to (basically) 8, except the sword which it sets to 7. Modifying the event is possible, but there's no extra space so would be annoying.

As for an obtainable 8th sword orb, you've seen my first attempt. It has issues that I'll resolve next update.

2) Yeah, it's a sucky spell. Not high on my list of priorities, but something I may do someday. I'd also like to replace Evil Gate; even with Kethinov's hack that beefs it up it still feels bleh to use.

3) Absolutely not. One of my top complaints with Trials of Mana is how all of its spells freeze all action; it's awful. If I do anything regarding this it would be to make the level 8 spells not freeze time, but I suspect they do so for technical reasons. I do agree that it makes the level 8 spells worse than their less fancy versions, and is something I'd like to adjust someday.

4) That's a neat idea. I'll probably dig around and see if it's possible.

5) This is something to bring up with Kethinov. I assume he just hasn't been to the forums so hasn't seen your PM. Just brainstorming, it may be more practical to move Neko forward through the teleporter into the empty Mech Rider III room.

6) Melee damage is done via melee animations having a collide-able damage region. Throws have such a region, which means if you do a throw on one enemy, and there's a second enemy nearby, the collider can hit that second enemy; effectively you're throwing the first enemy into the second. Unfortunately, the grabbed enemy is not able to collide with the damaging collider during the throw animation (so that's why they don't take damage). Not sure what it would take to resolve this. Strong_And_Weak_Attacks removes the glove weapon throws, so it's a non-issue, and that's the default configuration I support, so changing throws is pretty low on my list of priorities. They're fun, so in theory I'd like to fix them up and make them worthwhile, but I have other stuff I'd rather work on.

Quote from: hmsong on August 31, 2019, 07:56:57 PM
Some updates to your existing packages:
Neko_And_Watts_In_Fortress and Restore_Unused_Fanfares were just out-dated descriptions. Gaias_Navel_Treasure needed a minor update (1000gp -> 50gp, and a dependent option to switch back to 1000gp). Thanks for pointing those out.

I can't think of a concise way to format the spell recharge time table in the description for Magic_Recharging. I added a general explanation of the logic behind the recharge timings to the description, but for now, if you want to see exactly which spell gets what timer, open the Turbo ZPS file in a text editor and search for \tbl_magicRechargeTime.asm to see the table (I added comments to clarify which entry is for which spell).

Quote from: hmsong on September 01, 2019, 05:56:51 AM
...then start from blank, all the saved filed (somehow, they exist) are all corrupt.
Use a site like to upload screenshots. They provide direct image links suitable for using in forum posts. But I happen to know of this issue, so no screenshot necessary.

Anyway, the problem you ran into has a fairly specific cause: have Equip_2nd_Weapon and/or QuickSpell_Hotkeys On, and Disable_Checksum_Bypass Off (this feature has changed since you hit this issue, will elaborate in a sec), then start the game without save data (.SRM file) in an emulator that initializes the save data with all bits set (all 0xFF bytes), such as ZSNES. Checksum_Bypass looks for 0xFFFF in the save's checksum value and skips validating if that's the value, which results in garbage saves being visible at the load screen. I changed Disable_Checksum_Bypass (On by default) into Checksum_Bypass (Off by default) to reduce the likelihood of someone running into this on accident.

Quote from: hmsong on September 01, 2019, 08:56:59 AM
Bug Reports:
I checked Earlier_Midge_Mallet and Later_Midge_Mallet and they change the bytes exactly as done by Kethinov's two hacks (modify an event related to getting the Midge Mallet). I don't personally use either so am not familiar with the precise expected behavior.

1. [Reduce_Moon_Saber_Healing]: Description Changed
2. [Revisit_Sunken_Continent]: Description Changed
3. [King_Goes_To_Bed]: That's the vanilla NPC movement for that event, so eh, get a time machine and tell the original devs they were kinda sloppy when setting up the queen's movements.
4. [Magic_Recharging]: Seems like too much data to dump into the description. If I can make a compact table I will, but not high on my list of things to do.
5. [Scroll_Hack], [CPUs_Dont_Block_Screen]: Should be handled by Bug_Fixes\Gather_Party_Fix. If you can still make it happen even with that bug fix On, let me know.

[No_Blats_To_Sell]: Fixed in Version 190902. I was accidentally allowing a 13th item to try and load, and the ring menu can't handle more than 12 icons.

Quote from: hmsong on September 03, 2019, 02:46:53 AM
I hope the Turtlelance's [Spear] Orb isn't farmable when you face it in the Tree Palace.
Whoops, it sorta is. I forgot they were the same enemy type in the Grand Palace and Mana Fortress; now it makes sense why they have such a crummy drop. Crud. Your maximum orbs value should prevent the drop from actually occurring until after talking to the Mana Tree, but I'll want to reassess this. This probably also risks an issue with Day_Night_Cycle adding nighttime Metal Crabs to Pure Land since they also have a weapon orb.

I want the 8th sword orb to be a drop in the Mana Fortress to match the other weapons. Just need to figure out a suitable enemy to cram it on. I didn't use Doom Swords because I did remember that they were in the Grand Palace. I also thought I'd read that weapon orb drops only functioned in the Mana Fortress, but that's incorrect info; the dropped orb chests only check if current orbs < maximum orbs (and various things set the maximum orb values, notably the Mana Tree event).

Replacing enemies with chests is Kethinov's thing. If there are some accidentally unreachable chests I'll move them in-bounds, but the two existing features related to weapon orbs already handle bumping orb availability. Part of my reluctance is that you don't just put in a chest that contains an orb, you put in a chest that contains a specific level orb, which means having to verify the correct orb count for that weapon at that point in the game, and modifying any orb chests for that weapon type that come later in the game.

There, think that replies to everything.


Truly, thank you for your kind replies.  I look forward to your next release.

1. I'm trying your "Missing Orbs" patch, to see the difference between Kev's other patch.
2. I'd love to see both Lunar Magic and Evil Gate change.  I don't know what Evil Gate will do (SD3's Death spell was too OP though).
3. Ahh.  Makes sense.
4. Thank you.
5. You're right.  Your idea is more practical, if it's possible.  I was thinking the final room (before Mech Rider 3) would have Neko, Watts, and a Lv9 Sword Orb chest, but your idea works great too.
6. Yeah, throws seemed to be disabled for strong/weak attacks.  I just love throws, esp in fighting games, so I guess I just wanted to see it.  And chain-throws.

I'm sure you can do it better, but I thought I might as well share the magic-recoil thing with everyone else, since I tested them.  Perhaps you can include this in your next release description:

Short Magic Recharge:   6 Sabers, 4 Stat Ups/Downs, Analyze, Lunacy, Dispel
Medium Magic Recharge:   Refresh, 3 Status Effects, Energy Ball, 2 Barriers, Transform
Long Magic Recharge:   Cure Water, 17 Damage Magics, Revive

Bug Report:
When Moon Saber damages an enemy, your HP doesn't change (screen view only, since the code seems to change), unless you kill an enemy, or you do something to affect your HP (ex: getting damaged, using HP item, etc).


@Queue  Good to see you again.  I was going to wait until I finished my two parallel playthroughs, but it's taking a long time.  So, added two more screenshots to the folder (numbers 020 and 021).  Here's the link again so you don't have to go back another page:  Secret of Mana Screenshots

I had no idea that the ZPS file was editable in Notepad, just checked that earlier after reading your update post and seeing the bit about [Magic_Recharging].  I wouldn't trust myself to edit most of what's in the file, but changing which spells are Short/Medium/Long sounds like a great idea!  I will try that soon... :thumbsup:

Also, I will have a look and verify your fix for [Boy_Dislikes_Nuts], although the bug is easy to avoid once you know what causes it.    :crazy:

There's a question I'd like to ask about Lime Slime/Dread Slime.  It seems like both of these bosses are a lot easier to hit with weapons than they used to be, not that this is a problem, necessarily.  Based on my observations, they don't have invincibility frames anymore, or not as many.  Is this something that was implemented in a patch?  Just curious.

Regarding Evil Gate/Lunar Magic, I haven't really got any suggestions about those spells apart from making them do straight damage, instead of using a special formula to do percentile damage (which ignores Magic Def.)/random nonsense nobody cares about.  Although in Evil Gate's case, there's already Dark Force to do straight damage, sooo... hmmm.  In Lunar Magic's case, as noted before, there's no Moon-damage spell except Magic Absorb, so that would help.  But changing the way spells work might not be a simple matter.

Thanks very much for the latest update, I'm still lovin' what Turbo can do.   8)
MASTER LINK:  Secret of Mana Information (Vanilla)

"Yes, the Author is indeed a horse!"  <zool>