Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 230822

[Queue]

Uberdubie:
Good news! The Manual Blocking from zhaDe's Gameplay Improvement (which is inherently part of Turbo) works great against most of the BS boss attacks, and the Mantis sonicboom is among those blockable. It works against any attacks that specifically aren't spells, so as long as you block, you're safe. However, nothing will protect you from spells (except magic that protects you from spells).

The blocking is sorta too good at the moment, but you also can't attack (or do anything else) while blocking, so I'm not really concerned. Probably the most unfair gimmick is you can hold block after an enemy eats you and it will protect you from the damage you take when spit out. Not totally sure I want to change that because the attacks are definitely in the BS category but that's not set in stone.



OMorty:
Yeah, I plan to add all of Kethinov's stuff, though I still need to get in contact with them to check their opinion on doing so.

The logo accent has been on my mind since I chose the name, but editing the logo is a huge pain in the butt, especially if I do it how I want to (the "Turbo" word wouldn't show until later in the intro after the letterbox has opened wide). I played with doing it in black so it'd be hidden by the letterbox due to matching color, but it looked crummy. The palette has good shades of red though so it's within the realm of possible, just low priority since it's a lot of work for a trivial reward.



Here's what I've done since my last post:
- Improved FastROM implementation (this has the strongest effect on ZSNES, so bummer if you don't like ZSNES; speed improvements on more accurate emulators are less pronounced)
- Fixed Rain of Arrows in locations where it didn't work
- Fixed CPU-controlled ally's charge bar sometimes not disappearing
- Slightly increased bow range over zhaDe's already slight increase
- Fixed the character permadeath bug, probably (I don't know how to reliably reproduce it)
- Implemented a fix so that wisdom stat on armor works (pretty sure Regrs was the first person to specify this fix)
- Implemented a variation of Mop's Weapon Affinity damage fix (so that weapons that say they're strong against X actually are); +25% damage
- Split Faster CPU Ally decision making off from zhaDe's Better CPU Ally AI
- Implemented a fix related to a Mana Tree cutscene when using [CPUs_Dont_Block_Screen] and / or [Walk_To_Edges_Of_Screen] (thanks to Mop and Timbo)
- Implemented a variation of Mop's weapon Overcharge fix
- Implemented Mop's Hittable Vampires patch (that lets a vampire be attacked when their cape is closed, this will likely be off by default depending on balance implications)

[IcePenguin]

I know pretty much nothing of what's been done in the SoM modding scene, but has anyone improved the party AI so they don't get stuck on stuff?  If I remember right, they will spawn to your location if you open the menus, but having them do it after a certain, reasonable, distance would be awesome.

Anyway, just curious! 

[Queue]

Yeah, zhaDe's Gameplay Improvement includes teleporting stuck AI teammates to you. It makes a world of difference.

[IcePenguin]

Yeah, zhaDe's Gameplay Improvement includes teleporting stuck AI teammates to you. It makes a world of difference.

Most excellent!  I eagerly wait for the completion of your project. 

[Queue]

Finally got his drill legs figured out (mostly). Not quite finished but like 95%.

Other stuff since my last post:
- Whip now has negative knockback; it pulls enemies towards you
- Can no longer block while disabled (by a status effect, e.g. frostied)
- Can no longer switch weapons while disabled
- Fixed some attacking while disabled issues (non-vanilla issues), but some not fixed yet
- Confirmed permadeath fix works (at least for one circumstance that can cause it, hopefully all)
- A limited selection of status effects now disable the quick spell casting menu
- Restored Aegagropilon's devour attack (thanks to Regrs notes on the matter)
- Isolated title screen stuff so it's easier to use on its own with other SoM patches
- Wasted lots of time not realizing nesting IFs has caveats with the ZPS format

[PresidentLeever]

Stamina meter makes sense in multiplayer but the scaling of it never did. Will be interesting to try this, though I'm thinking the enemies will need some tweaks or it'll be too easy.

[Queue]

There, a 25 year nitpick, finally fixed:

(Go look at a fountain in-game if what you're seeing isn't obvious.)

You can get an early peek at the restored title screen image and Kettle Kin fight in Secret of Mana - Relocalized, version 1.4 (or newer). https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4324/

[superfantendo]

This whole project makes me want to get a SNES Classic just to replace its SOM with SOMT.

[CountBuggula]

There, a 25 year nitpick, finally fixed:

(Go look at a fountain in-game if what you're seeing isn't obvious.)

That always bugged me too!  I'm so glad I'm not the only one.

I started playing through using 1.4 and I have to say I'm super impressed so far.  Keep up the good work, this is exciting stuff.

[teahouser]

If you want this to run perfectly on the SNES classic, you'll need to have a patch to fix the high gamma in the menus. Sluffy made some patches to fix the gamma in the PAL releases of Som, but the patch also converted it to 60hz from 50hz PAL. If you applied sluffy's patch to those PAL ROMs and saw what bytes it changed you could figure out how to make a patch to fix the gamma in your US 1.1 ROM.

Other than a patch to fix the high gamma in menus your version of the game should play flawlessly on Canoe. I'm excited for your release.

[ChrisHighwind]

"- Removes stamina (attacking / running / blocking)"

Thank you! I had the same thought you did when I first played Secret of Mana, having not played it as a child. I was used to Zelda's method of attacking and I thought SoM would be similar, so imagine my displeasure when trying to play SoM like a Zelda game resulted in my attacks doing pitiful damage after the first swing, which turned me off of the game completely. And yet, for some reason everyone else loves the stamina mechanic because no other hack removes it. I just don't get it. Glad to know someone else out there isn't a fan of having to wait until they can attack again just to have full damage.

[Gi Nattak]

I really do like the Stamina mechanic. Zelda: LTTP and SoM combat are quite different, yes, but I don't see one as better than the other; the flow of battling enemies in SoM feels different/unique to the game, thus becoming a bit more strategic and RPG-like than LTTP or Terranigma etc., which is obviously what they were going for. I do think, however, that the Stamina mechanic would greatly benefit from filling up faster with a higher Stamina rating, which I'm not sure it does...I never noticed it anyway. That would certainly be a more legit way to go about bettering it instead of simply stripping the mechanic from the game.

[IcePenguin]

If you want this to run perfectly on the SNES classic, you'll need to have a patch to fix the high gamma in the menus. Sluffy made some patches to fix the gamma in the PAL releases of Som, but the patch also converted it to 60hz from 50hz PAL. If you applied sluffy's patch to those PAL ROMs and saw what bytes it changed you could figure out how to make a patch to fix the gamma in your US 1.1 ROM.

Other than a patch to fix the high gamma in menus your version of the game should play flawlessly on Canoe. I'm excited for your release.

I'm glad you brought this up.  Hopefully this will be considered, as being able to play on SNES classic would be very cool.

I really do like the Stamina mechanic. Zelda: LTTP and SoM combat are quite different, yes, but I don't see one as better than the other; the flow of battling enemies in SoM feels different/unique to the game, thus becoming more strategic and RPG-like than LTTP, which is obviously what they were going for. I do think, however, that the Stamina mechanic would greatly benefit from filling up faster with a higher Stamina rating, which I'm not sure it does...I never noticed it anyway. That would certainly be a more legit way to go about bettering it instead of simply stripping the mechanic from the game.

That's a really good idea.  I could see many people enjoying something like that.  I'm looking forward to playing with no stamina, though, just because it will offer a fresh new way to play the game. 

[chillyfeez]

I just thought of something...
It's been a few years since I played SoM, but now that I think about it, I seem to remember that monsters fight as though they are subject to the same stamina constraints as players, waiting in between attacks and even sometimes unleashing a stronger attack after a longer delay. Am I remembering correctly, and if so, does this hack do anything about that?

[Queue]

No worries regarding the SNES Classic Edition, this whole project started specifically because I wanted to put a modified Secret of Mana on my buddy's SNESCE. And we did, and it worked correctly. DarkAkuma (the sfrom Tool creator) did the legwork to get the normal US Secret of Mana version to correctly reinsert on a SNESCE, and Turbo relies on that. Stuff regarding the European versions isn't actually relevant; it only applies to them.

Keep in mind that the patcher system being used for this lets you turn specific options on and off; the "Turbo Mode" feature of completely stripping stamina is just another checkbox you can disable. I'll toss in a faster stamina option because it's trivial (when you perform an action, it sets your stamina to a value that has to be recovered; halving said value would roughly halve recovery time).

Yes, monsters have stamina. And Turbo Mode also means they don't anymore. So they're a little more aggressive.

While stamina removal makes the game easier, the concerns are overblown: the game isn't hard to begin with and is extremely cheese-able with magic, and you don't have to enable stamina removal, jeez. You can make various changes to up difficulty to compensate, and the enemies not having stamina means they're a fair bit more aggressive. By default I have zhaDe's magic cooldowns enabled which reduces spell cheese (which I consider a far bigger problem for game difficulty than stamina).

[IcePenguin]

No worries regarding the SNES Classic Edition, this whole project started specifically because I wanted to put a modified Secret of Mana on my buddy's SNESCE.

Same here!  Glad to hear the good news. 

[Gi Nattak]

No stamina/charging % definitely fits with the hack name, all's I'm saying is that is will remove an integral part that makes SoM combat system what it is, instead of tweaking it to be something better. But again, considering the hack title, it does seem appropriate. Glad to know it will be optional, though.

[Queue]

Stuff I've done since last post:
- Fixed bad level 9 sword + Mana Magic interaction (when it fades, you have a bad weapon equipped)
- Fixed charged up whip attacks used on whip posts potentially throwing you off cliffs (a charged up whip attack simply isn't valid for gap crossing anymore; at first I just blocked charge 5, but then realized some other charge attacks have issues so just blocked them all)
- Cleaned up lots of buggy out of bounds graphics; some could only be seen using something like Scroll Hack to see farther than vanilla, but some were visible even vanilla (like the topless tree in the rabbite field just after getting the rusty sword, or the upper right in Todo Village when you play a drum).
- Fixed some boss fight rooms where hugging the left wall could make the boss invisible, particularly when using Scroll Hack; still have some left to adjust
- Fixed Mana Tree cutscene bug related to zhaDe's CPUs_Dont_Block_Screen and Walk_To_Edges_Of_Screen
- Added an off-by-default Centered_Camera (think extreme Scroll Hack), especially useful for spotting janky graphics
- Added a fun little "Turbo" logo to the title screen logo that shows up after the intro text crawl ends
- Committed a crime by changing the title screen music; the logo and music are an optional "Turbo Logo" option in the title screen patch options
- Added a safety music fade out when the title sequence loops; some emulators don't keep the music and visuals sync'd correctly so music can abruptly cut off in some circumstances
- Probably a few other things I failed to notice in the text diff or that aren't worth mentioning

[chillyfeez]

- Committed a crime by changing the title screen music; the logo and music are an optional "Turbo Logo" option in the title screen patch options

Lol. Is it an original song, or did you "turbo" up the original?

[Queue]

Neither. I took a different SoM song that had the intensity I wanted to go with the Turbo logo and then adjusted the instrument selection so it'd be varied from its usual use in the game. There are 5 unused music tracks in the game's music pointer table so I just altered one.

Well, sort've unused, all 5 point to the same score, and have a terrible set of instruments hooked up so it doesn't sound like music. If you change the instrument set for them, it's actually music, though seems to be simpler than most SoM music. So I guess there's an unused song buried in SoM's data? And to be clear, while I changed one of the 5 the other 4 are all identical, so I didn't even hurt availability of said mystery song (if someone knows something about it, I'm all ears).

Edit: Aw, the unused song is just the song "A Conclusion" with the wrong instruments. Bummer.