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Author Topic: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210502  (Read 505424 times)

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210321
« Reply #1980 on: March 26, 2021, 09:49:15 am »
You're right.  I screwed up the flag.  I did see that scene with Elman in that room, but I didn't actually talk to Elman.

Edit:  Woo!  100th page!  This has been one helluva project.  SoM Turbo is truly loved.  At least by the dedicated fanbase.

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210321
« Reply #1981 on: March 26, 2021, 03:30:58 pm »
Congrats on 100, Queue!  Your dedication is inspiring.  You deserve to be hired by Square! 

Dakitty

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210321
« Reply #1982 on: March 26, 2021, 06:41:19 pm »
Here's to 100 more pages! Also hope it inspires others, the way even just the blocking and stamina mechanics have been reworked have made this a whole new game to play, and my friends and I have been playing it for decades!

lexluthermiester

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210321
« Reply #1983 on: March 28, 2021, 10:38:44 pm »
Congrats on 100, Queue!  Your dedication is inspiring.  You deserve to be hired by Square!
What? Not sure I understand this..

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210321
« Reply #1984 on: March 29, 2021, 05:20:23 pm »
@hmsong (and anyone else interested)...Queue and myself will put together a Reborn V1.11 based on your recent feedback.  If there's anything else you spot, please let us know.  I'm hoping to get it out in the next two weeks, depending on when Queue and myself can finish it with our schedules.

Josenev

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210329
« Reply #1985 on: March 29, 2021, 06:03:18 pm »
Hello again, I come to show the progress of this new graphic theme.



There are a JPG preview x3 and a PNG preview. This is the standing poses for now, I don’t know if they fit in the tiles, they are untested. Anything of this pixelart work is liable to be change. I would welcome any feedback, thanks in advance.

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210329
« Reply #1986 on: March 29, 2021, 06:16:37 pm »
Version 2021-03-29:
https://filebin.net/7spaiz2xfys6b2i1/SoM_Turbo.210329.zip

Changes:
- implemented Quality_of_Life\Simpler_Patterns, Off by default
- made Quality_of_Life\QuickSpell_Hotkeys final step input more tolerant of still held D-Pad direction
- implemented Balance\Kilroy_-_Waterspout; makes his wheel form spin attack more interesting, depends on Magic\Spell_System_Extensions to have a visual effect (haven't tested with vanilla Kettle Kin, probably partially affects him...)
- implemented Bug_Fixes\Boss_Blind_Spot_Fix; apparently bosses had faulty logic for deciding which direction the sprite was from them, and basically always treated the sprite as if they were east of them
- bumped Text\Reborn to pre-release version 1.11
- slight timing change in Miscellaneous\Enable_Kilroy_Door, hopefully more reliably looks right in all circumstances, but hard to know without tons of testing

Technical Changes:
- optimized tiny face positioning logic for QuickSpell_Hotkeys
- probably made SSE.Name.Extended.Black.1.1 through SSE.Name.Extended.Black.2.2 usable finally (not reflected in comments that still say "currently unusable name" which will be gone next release); I used Extended.White.1.1 for Kilroy_-_Waterspout but didn't even end up having it show a spell name message, go figure



lexluthermiester, with default posts per page setting (20), this thread is up to 100 pages.

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210321
« Reply #1987 on: March 29, 2021, 10:13:47 pm »
@hmsong (and anyone else interested)...Queue and myself will put together a Reborn V1.11 based on your recent feedback.  If there's anything else you spot, please let us know.  I'm hoping to get it out in the next two weeks, depending on when Queue and myself can finish it with our schedules.

I'll replay the game and see if I notice anything else.  I mean, other than the things that's already been mentioned before (such as the ending script not matching the character moving/speaking).  2 weeks right?  I'll try to be as thorough as possible, but I'm gonna need at least 1 weekend to really play.



@Queue

I haven't played the 3-29 version yet, but I intend on creating this pic for menu pic for the new quick input (if applicable).  I'd like to hear your opinion on my sprites (your previous comment made me rethink and relook my previous pictures):


ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210321
« Reply #1988 on: March 29, 2021, 11:39:25 pm »
I'll replay the game and see if I notice anything else.  I mean, other than the things that's already been mentioned before (such as the ending script not matching the character moving/speaking).  2 weeks right?  I'll try to be as thorough as possible, but I'm gonna need at least 1 weekend to really play.

We can extend it further, for sure.  I suggested two weeks to show that we're not in any huge hurry.

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210329
« Reply #1989 on: March 30, 2021, 05:04:28 pm »
hmsong, I think those are much improved. I especially like the extra detail you squeezed into Luna, so will surely get that incorporated. I think those are well developed enough that it just boils down to subjective opinion at this point. I can still give my opinions on individual mini elementals if you want, but if you're happy with them, that's okay too.

Try out Simpler_Patterns and tell me if you find it acceptable. It doesn't need the elemental category pairs at all as the top level is an 8-way selection.

I'm starting to explore boss AI fixes finally (in case Kilroy_-_Waterspout wasn't enough of a hint). I still hate working on them, but my distaste when encountering them has outweighed that. I think I want to just explore options on my own for now, so I'm not soliciting suggestions, but if there are any that stand out as just too comically out of place, I wouldn't mind being reminded. Aside from Kilroy, what I'm currently thinking about are:
- Hydra
- Tonpole Trio
- Snake boss death weirdness
- Mech Rider II
Even with Waterspout Kilroy is easy, but I think that's the point: he's a crummy robot made by some crummy villains. Having an intentional joke boss is an okay thing. I also think Wall Face's Change Form needs some rethinking; it's not as deadly as Freeze, but it sure makes it frustrating to win that fight.

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210329
« Reply #1990 on: March 31, 2021, 03:16:28 am »
For Chamber Wall one way would be for his two eyes to spam a Blitz Beam and Speed Down combo - slow down your party and follow by those beam attacks they tend to use sometimes, while reviving one other. With Undine's HP Absorb spell in between.

It probably requires a lot of work tho, but just an idea.

As for Killroy and the other robot, he remind me of those SD3 robots, they tend to use rockets or beams sometimes (perhaps the same Blitz Beam that Wall boss has, or Mech Rider rockets), not sure if an attack like that can be implemented to the two Robots tho, probably not.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2021, 05:29:34 am by Mr X »

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210329
« Reply #1991 on: March 31, 2021, 06:33:15 am »
Hmm.  I tried Simpler_Patterns, but I don't get how to pick some of the spells.  It seems that I can only pick Sylphid, Undine, Lumina (if Girl), and Dryad.  I cannot pick Shade, Salamando, Gnome, and Luna (I'm guessing there is a way, but my intuition isn't picking it up).

Edit: Oh, I figured it out.  I reread your description from above, and Simpler_Patterns was 8-way direction (so diagonal counts too).  Silly me.  Still, I think you should put that in the ZPS description (something like, "Reduces QuickSpell input pattern complexity by using 8-way directions for the first input").

Anyhow, it's a very interesting concept.  I thought 8 direction would be kinda hard to remember, but that part surprisingly wasn't very difficult (which means you succeeded in making the spells easier to remember).  I also loved that the 3 spell/items only used left/down/right -- far easier to remember.  However, I do think that "which element is where" is slightly confusing, because Sylphid isn't next to Gnome -- all other elements' opposites are right next to each other (I know why you chose that, since in programming, 1st element is Gnome, then Undine, then Salamando, then Sylphid, etc, but I don't think others would get that).  Or better yet, I think the opposite elements should be on the other side of the direction, similar to what you did for your normal 3 input directions (this is what I would prefer).  So:

Code: [Select]
0=gnome, 1=undine, 2=salamando, 3=sylphid, 4=luna, 5=dryad, 6=shade, 7=lumina

  4 1 6
   \|/
0 --+-- 3
   /|\
  7 2 5

As you can see, the first 4 elements are the non-diagonal directions, since they're the "prime" elements.

Another thing.  I see that you made the spell order to left (1), down (2), and right (3) -- that's what I want.  But for items, you made it left (1), down (3), and right (2).  Was there any reason for that?


For Boss AI edits, I can think of several:

1. Mana Beast -- I already mentioned this before, but I'll address them again:
  • It really shouldn't rise from the bottom, as it's a sitting duck for the Boy to beat the crap out of.
  • Speed up the "down time", esp the rise/descent since it gives the heroes way too much time to recover and such from the previous attack.  On the other hand though, it wastes a lot of time for any buffs and Mana Sword.  So a double edged sword if the speed is changed.
2. Bite Lizard/Snap Dragon -- their "eating" attack can damage themselves if the condition is right -- it shouldn't damage itself.
3. Similar to Lizard/Dragon, Aegagropilon's "eating" attack can damage itself -- it shouldn't damage itself.

For the eating attack, if you can incorporate something that does a big damage (such as 25% of target's max HP), that'll be great.  I'm not sure how the eating attacks work for the Spikeys and Vampires.

For Hydra/Jabberwocky, what is their head appearing/disappearing supposed to do?  It seemed like it was just animation, and it didn't really affect the battle in any way.

For Wall Face's Change Form, what do you have in mind?  I thought it'd be neat for Wall Face to use them to waste the precious time (and resource) for Wall Face to use its crush attack, but if you got something better, then I'm open to that.  You're right that Change Form is definitely annoying as hell.  However, Freeze seems... kinda boring, as there are so many bosses that only do damage.  Perhaps I should make its middle eye back to the original element? (Air, which is weak to Earth attacks)  Or make the non-main eyes have less HP?

Holy crap, I think Kilroy is a little too hard at that point, thanks to its tornado attack.  It killed my guys rather quickly (I was at Lv15, which was reasonable, I think).  I didn't see Kettle Kin using it though.  So I think Kilroy shouldn't have it (as it's a flawed robot), while Kettle Kin should (as it's the non-flawed version).  Kettle Kin can activate the tornado with its drill legs if that's enabled, or the hammer spin if the drill leg graphic is disabled.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2021, 06:55:25 am by hmsong »

lexluthermiester

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210329
« Reply #1992 on: March 31, 2021, 05:52:04 pm »
Hello again, I come to show the progress of this new graphic theme.



There are a JPG preview x3 and a PNG preview. This is the standing poses for now, I don’t know if they fit in the tiles, they are untested. Anything of this pixelart work is liable to be change. I would welcome any feedback, thanks in advance.
Those look cool! Like something out of SD3.

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210329
« Reply #1993 on: April 02, 2021, 10:04:55 am »
I am not sure if I am allowed to post links here from other sites, but while thinking and the debates about Boss AI and design I found an interesting article in ngplus when it comes to that topic, might be a good read:

http://ngplus.net/index.php?/ngplusarticles/hackingmodding/rpg-boss-design-101-r15/
« Last Edit: April 02, 2021, 03:21:52 pm by Mr X »

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210329
« Reply #1994 on: April 02, 2021, 03:22:53 pm »
Those look quite excellent. If you have hope of them being inserted in-game, you will want to start planning for tile constraints, but if you're content to just make amazing art, disregard.

The first image on each of these pages:
https://manaredux.com/characters/protagonists/randi/
https://manaredux.com/characters/protagonists/purim/
...shows the sort of planning the original artists had to cope with for plotting character tile usage.



Mr X, I enjoyed that read. More good stuff to ponder if nothing else. I've been toying with the Tonpole Trio having a means of Frosty'ing the party, given the location. Possibly also Pygmy since they have zero defense so pygmy'd punches can still hurt them.

The boss beam abilities are good options in general because they're blockable, so they should be fair to use liberally, but I haven't committed to them anywhere yet. They'll likely see some use for Wall Face. Tangle is also a good reminder as the player shouldn't have many immunities that early in the game, so it'd be both effective and (more importantly for a still early-ish boss) not super lethal.



hmsong, I didn't put any real effort into organizing the Simpler Patterns because I wanted your take on it after you saw the basics. For items, those were just rotating the order from how I have them without the simple layouts so their order doesn't make as much sense now, so I should reorder them. The baseline was based on, for healing items, right > up = easiest, right > down = second easiest, right > left = hardest, so the healing item order was 1 3 2, top to bottom. This obviously doesn't apply with the simpler layout.

Mana Beast isn't my focus yet, I'm basically going beginning-to-end in order, with the hope that I'll learn things along the way to make later fights more interesting. I'm sure the Mana Beast has the rising animation because it looks cool, not because they cared if it made him a sitting duck. There's supposedly a bug where the Mana Beast can wind up taking a looong time to come back on screen, but I've never triggered it. I want to figure out how to make that happen so I can fix it when I'm working on its AI.

For the lizards, they get hurt because you play a "getting up" animation after being swallowed, and those "getting up" animations include an attack. When a snake eats you it shrinks you, and the pygmy form doesn't have a "getting up" animation (and I forget what happens if it doesn't shrink you; it may just not cause a "getting up" animation at all). I'll likely have to do something tricky to block the character playing that animation when recovering.

I have no idea on Hydra's head! I intend to look into them more closely soon.

When I've fought Change Form Wall Face, I've never triggered his crush attack, I just never end up killing the side eyes, annoyed the whole time that I'm permanently shrunk. I'm considering making them die if they run out of mana. Anyway, I'm leaning towards more beam attacks instead of spells, since they should be blockable, and that early in the game you don't have great options for maintaining the party (not enough mana, mainly). My preference in... any game genre really, is for the player to be able to win by drawing out a fight really long, instead of the only viable option being to kill the enemy super fast before it can use its abilities (but where a short or long fight is up to the player, not some arbitrary time limit, etc.).

Kilroy only uses his new tornado if the whole party (at least those that are alive / not Barreled) is far away, so if it killed you it meant you kept running away from him. Thematically, it's a waterspout because the Scorpion Gang was trying to power him with the Water Seed. My plans for Kettle Kin are different (his room is smaller, so it's harder to run far enough away to justify a "vacuum if far away" effect; I intend to just give him a ranged attack most likely).

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210329
« Reply #1995 on: April 02, 2021, 03:37:57 pm »
Mana Beast isn't my focus yet

I see what you did there ;)

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210329
« Reply #1996 on: April 02, 2021, 04:35:10 pm »
I still have yet to try the new version with Killroy's new attack. Gotta keep different save files from different points of the game for testing purposes.

Quote
I've been toying with the Tonpole Trio having a means of Frosty'ing the party, given the location. Possibly also Pygmy since they have zero defense so pygmy'd punches can still hurt them.

Yeah and Medical herbs are cheap to buy could always carry them, and have a spell that removes status effects too, don't see that as a huge problem but it's good for a mini boss that it still forces you to use spells.

Quote
The boss beam abilities are good options in general because they're blockable, so they should be fair to use liberally, but I haven't committed to them anywhere yet. They'll likely see some use for Wall Face. Tangle is also a good reminder as the player shouldn't have many immunities that early in the game, so it'd be both effective and (more importantly for a still early-ish boss) not super lethal.

Yeah being blockable makes it also more beginner friendly boss fight. Speed down to slow your party down so you can't dodge them properly, and would force you more to block those blitz beams instead. HP absorb doesn't seem like a very strong spell so them casting it to restore HP doesn't seem harmful.
Eyes running out of MP = they die, that's a fantastic idea you thought, while they can also cast revive too, so they can also wear you down bit by bit for the middle eye to smash you.
I wonder if it would be possible for the middle eye to cast those beams also or would it mess up it's AI to move forward?

Quote
I'm basically going beginning-to-end in order, with the hope that I'll learn things along the way to make later fights more interesting.

A good choice. Baby steps.

undeon

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210329
« Reply #1997 on: April 02, 2021, 05:58:56 pm »
Hi everyone. This is my first post on RH. Your mod looks fantastic, but for someone who never seriously played this game, its a bit confusing about what should turn ON or OFF.

There's an "good for everyone" set of choices to apply?

Thanks :)

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210329
« Reply #1998 on: April 02, 2021, 07:49:43 pm »
Quote from: Queue
When I've fought Change Form Wall Face, I've never triggered his crush attack, I just never end up killing the side eyes, annoyed the whole time that I'm permanently shrunk. I'm considering making them die if they run out of mana. Anyway, I'm leaning towards more beam attacks instead of spells, since they should be blockable, and that early in the game you don't have great options for maintaining the party (not enough mana, mainly). My preference in... any game genre really, is for the player to be able to win by drawing out a fight really long, instead of the only viable option being to kill the enemy super fast before it can use its abilities (but where a short or long fight is up to the player, not some arbitrary time limit, etc.).

Oh, that sounds good.  Once you figure something out, you can remove that -- you may just want to remove the whole magic slot from those eyes (but keep HP Absorb and Cure Water, if that's the eye's magic).  Beam does sound great.  Specifically, Freeze beam -- not lethal, but still cool (and keeps up with its water theme attacks).  You can also make it Moogle/Pygmy beam.  I know you said that you're thinking about Tangle beam, but Tangle effect attack is already being used by the middle eye.  I have a mixed feeling about the eyes dying permanently if they run out of MP.  I kinda wanna it to be tough to beat if the eyes are alive.  If their MP runs out, they're quite harmless, since they can't really attack you very much (except for the beam if you make that), and they can't cure the middle eye either (I assume Cure Water is from the eyes, and not middle eyes).  And if they don't permanently die, the middle eye will keep wasting its precious MP on them, hence making it eventually use the unique wall crush.  I shall reduce the eye's HP at some point, as killing the eyes and seeing them revive is really a cool effect (at least, for me).

Quote from: Quote
Kilroy only uses his new tornado if the whole party (at least those that are alive / not Barreled) is far away, so if it killed you it meant you kept running away from him. Thematically, it's a waterspout because the Scorpion Gang was trying to power him with the Water Seed. My plans for Kettle Kin are different (his room is smaller, so it's harder to run far enough away to justify a "vacuum if far away" effect; I intend to just give him a ranged attack most likely).

Oh.  I didn't know that.  I shall try to fight him with that in mind.  Still, Kilroy has much longer fight range, so it's hard to fight him in close range combat.  I was hoping you make it so that if Speed Down (vine) was used, Kilroy wouldn't be able to use the waterspout attack temporarily due to it not being able to spin fast enough.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2021, 08:01:17 pm by hmsong »

mkwong98

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210329
« Reply #1999 on: April 03, 2021, 12:26:06 am »
Hello again, I come to show the progress of this new graphic theme.



There are a JPG preview x3 and a PNG preview. This is the standing poses for now, I don’t know if they fit in the tiles, they are untested. Anything of this pixelart work is liable to be change. I would welcome any feedback, thanks in advance.

Randi's front pose fits:
https://imgur.com/7cYuTdg
https://imgur.com/a/WPnPyNU