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Author Topic: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210502  (Read 505388 times)

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210301
« Reply #1940 on: March 09, 2021, 08:41:18 pm »
Are any of these Randi animations unused (on the left)?

https://imgur.com/a/qeN0lUE

zeteginara

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210301
« Reply #1941 on: March 09, 2021, 09:11:49 pm »
...and now the panel didn't appear after beating the Mantis.  :(

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210301
« Reply #1942 on: March 10, 2021, 12:18:18 am »
ManaRedux, top row exists in-game, animation frames 27/28/29.
Middle row and bottom row do not.

Middle row, to me, looks like a ladder / wall climb + pull up from ledge hang.
Bottom row looks like event emotes similar to those of frames 215-218.

Taking a look through the tile graphics in the ROM, I don't think those ever made it in-game. You can read the tile numbers in the grid below the image. For example, in the left emote 0x139/0x13A; those tiles look nothing like they do in the ROM. Nor do 0x0C3, 0x1F3, etc. And just in case they migrated, I didn't spot them in general, looking for them elsewhere in the boy's tiles. It's a lot of work to get them in-game, so I'd expect they were culled before they got that far.

zeteginara, I did reproduce the error you saw in the resistance base using version 210128, but tracking down the specific cause isn't of huge value as whatever caused it has been fixed since then. Update and you should be good.

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210301
« Reply #1943 on: March 10, 2021, 09:26:28 am »
ManaRedux, top row exists in-game, animation frames 27/28/29.
Middle row and bottom row do not.

Middle row, to me, looks like a ladder / wall climb + pull up from ledge hang.
Bottom row looks like event emotes similar to those of frames 215-218.

Taking a look through the tile graphics in the ROM, I don't think those ever made it in-game. You can read the tile numbers in the grid below the image. For example, in the left emote 0x139/0x13A; those tiles look nothing like they do in the ROM. Nor do 0x0C3, 0x1F3, etc. And just in case they migrated, I didn't spot them in general, looking for them elsewhere in the boy's tiles. It's a lot of work to get them in-game, so I'd expect they were culled before they got that far.

Neat!  These were from the Fall of 1992, so there was a ways to go.  This is part of a haul of stuff I've discovered recently.  It never seems to end! 

zeteginara

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210301
« Reply #1944 on: March 10, 2021, 04:53:51 pm »
Updated, and I'm good now.  Thank you!

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210310
« Reply #1945 on: March 11, 2021, 02:30:24 am »
Version 2021-03-10:
https://filebin.net/7spaiz2xfys6b2i1/SoM_Turbo.210310.zip
Alternate Link:
https://www.sendspace.com/file/m7891t

Changes:
- tons of changes to Combat\Manual_Block, see below
- implemented Combat\Charge_While_Blocking, Off by default (needs testing)
- tons of changes to Quality_of_Life\QuickSpell_Hotkeys, see below
- implemented Quality_of_Life\Multi_Target_Default, makes spells default to all targets
- implemented Quality_of_Life\Ring_Menu_Highlight, Grayscales the HUD portraits for the characters whose Ring Menu is NOT open.
- removed Mantis Ant bonus health when Balance\Monster_Stat_Modifiers is On (with default settings, this will drop his health from x4 to x2)
- fixed bug in Quality_of_Life\Equip_2nd_Weapon where it would kinda let you try and set a hotkey at the reforge ring menu

Technical Changes:
- fixed a minor theoretical bug related to multiple NGI features that run code at game start after naming the boy
- fixed a minor theoretical bug related to inlined helper functions
- improved Quality_of_Life\Equip_2nd_Weapon hotkey interactions
- DEBUG_MODE now uses controller 3 shoulder buttons

--- Manual_Block ---
- Less generous than before; many circumstances where a block will be unsuccessful compared to before.
- Can now turn in place while blocking, but...
- Now must face your attacker to block (basically 270 degree block angle though, so it's not hard).
- Can no longer block all boss abilities: what decides it is if the ability plays an animation on you that overrides the block animation.
- Glove weapon will now potentially judo throw your attacker when blocking.
- Successful block sound now has stereo panning.

--- QuickSpell_Hotkeys ---
- Implemented Quality_of_Life\QuickSpell_Hotkeys\Patterned_Inputs which replaces the hotkey binding system with something more like a fighting game special move input system.
- Lots of rewritten QuickSpell_Hotkeys code, especially to support Patterned_Inputs, but also in general; code is now a fair bit more optimized.
- More flexible hotkey input when QuickSpell_Hotkeys menu is active and less hotkey spillover when closing the menu.
- I worked on this for over a week, but I'm having a hard time describing what all changed. Just try it and see if you find it usable.

Cure Water is Right + Up + Right. Hold buttons while pressing the D-Pad for rapid selection, don't hold buttons (and use the D-Pad) to look around and learn the spell layout.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2021, 03:13:16 pm by Queue »

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210310
« Reply #1946 on: March 11, 2021, 06:19:03 pm »
Holy carp.  The new update sounds interesting.  I shall try them out during the weekend.

Btw, some requests:
1. I think I mentioned this before, but I forgot about it for a long time.  For Magic Recharge, could you make it so that spells that have "fireball" animation don't reset the timer?  For example, things like Fireball, Air Blast, and Sabers take longer to recharge, because their recharge timer "resets" once the 3rd fireball hit the target.  And it seems that these spells also take longer to start recharging (which makes the real recharge time even slower).
2. For Hellfire, could you make it so that if Shadow Saber is ON, Hellfire uses the Lv3 Evil Gate animation? (with red colors for spell and the target)  I just want Shadow Zero cameo to exist.  No need to worry about Black Hex using that animation, since that gets disabled if Hellfire is ON.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2021, 06:58:50 pm by hmsong »

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210310
« Reply #1947 on: March 13, 2021, 10:29:49 am »
I like the nerf put on manual blocking. Always thought it needed some nerf not sure why I never brought it up. Gonna def try it out, the new changes seems like a pretty cool update in terms of gameplay.

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210313
« Reply #1948 on: March 13, 2021, 08:25:20 pm »
Version 2021-03-13:
https://filebin.net/7spaiz2xfys6b2i1/SoM_Turbo.210313.zip
Alternate Link:
https://www.sendspace.com/file/sg7nqa

Changes:
- made Combat\Charge_While_Blocking On by default, worked a couple bugs out of it, should be good enough to use now
- implemented Balance\Monster_AI_Improvements, only affects Kid Goblin so far; garbage AI is definitely a vanilla issue, stop blaming Turbo for bad SoM AI =P
- improved Bug_Fixes\Gather_Party_Fix; enhanced how it unwedges characters stuck at the edge of the screen and fixed a vanilla position comparing bug
- fixed a bug in Quality_of_Life\Equip_2nd_Weapon introduced last update that made it not work for players 2 and 3
- fixed Quality_of_Life\Ring_Menu_Highlight discoloring the wrong sprites when your party isn't full (i.e. when you have fewer than 3 heroes)
- fixed an ancient bug in Quality_of_Life\QuickSpell_Hotkeys that can cause enemy damage numbers / weapons to be invisible; was always a problem, but made much more common by Patterned_Inputs so was able to track it down
- changed Quality_of_Life\QuickSpell_Hotkeys\Patterned_Inputs to hide top level categories where you have neither elemental yet
- more adjustments to Combat\Manual_Block including:
-- altered how it hooks into incoming damage logic
-- fixed glove weapon throw when more than one enemy hits you on the same frame
-- changed glove weapon throw animation when facing up/down
-- added up/down dodging animation
-- added up/down blocked animation
-- probably improved vulnerability to being hit while playing the blocked animation (blocked as opposed to blocking)
-- disabled randomness for passive dodges; they're now always the flip since the other two dodge animations are used for blocking



Mr X, nerfing Manual_Block has been brought up a jillion times, so if you weren't one of the people who brought it up, I'm glad. The changes I made were focused on making it more interesting more than they were about just outright nerfing it. I'm trying to get it to a sweet spot where it's worth using (where blocking to win a fight is as good a choice as "the best defense is a good offense"), not boring to use (e.g. only block, keep opening ring menu to cast spell = boring), and not hard to use (e.g. precise timing window "perfect" blocking and other similar garbage).

hmsong, you definitely brought up the spell recharge time inconsistencies before. I've still never looked at exactly how the recharge time mechanism works. If it doesn't look practical to change it so their timer starts when the cast finishes (rather than when all the projectiles + animations have finished), I may just adjust down their recast times, but the reason I didn't do that long ago was due to variance in some spell cast animations. Well, and because it's just not that important. An example where the recast time changes due to varied animation style: Air Blast changing from pizza projectiles to tornado non-projectile at higher level.

Regarding Hellfire, the high level Evil Gate animation is one of those janky hard-coded ones. It's not worth the trouble for me to figure out how to make it red, especially since I'll never see it / use it (Turbo_Mode causes the hard-coded gameplay-pausing animations to downgrade one animation level so they don't pause gameplay). If you can figure out how to change its colors though I'd be happy to include it.

For reference, the list of spells with hard-coded max level animations are:
- Fireball
- Exploder
- Fire Bouquet
- Burst
- Evil Gate
- Dark Force
- Lucent Beam
So not actually that many. I'm mostly sad to not see the Fireball dragon, but spells pausing gameplay suuuuuuucks.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2021, 04:02:25 pm by Queue »

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210313
« Reply #1949 on: March 13, 2021, 09:24:06 pm »
hmsong, you definitely brought up the spell recharge time inconsistencies before. I've still never looked at exactly how the recharge time mechanism works. If it doesn't look practical to change it so their timer starts when the cast finishes (rather than when all the projectiles + animations have finished), I may just adjust down their recast times, but the reason I didn't do that long ago was due to variance in some spell cast animations. Well, and because it's just not that important. An example where the recast time changes due to varied animation style: Air Blast changing from pizza projectiles to tornado non-projectile at higher level.

Hmm.  If you can't change the recharge time (due to various matters), then do you think you can make a patch where it takes a long time for the spell to come out? (for the players only)  I think I mentioned that too at some point, but I didn't mention anything specific.  So to go into specific, do you think you can make the spirit animation longer?  For example, when you cast Cure Water, the caster does a little pose, then summons Undine, and Undine does a little pose that casts Cure Water.  In that example, maybe have the caster's pre-summon pose longer, depending on the spell? (I assume changing the timing for the Undine's spell cast is a lot more difficult)

I agree that spell freezing kinda sucks, since enemies casting it really slows down the game (that's why I no longer use Spells_Pause_Gameplay, even though you made that patch at my request).  I don't mind if Lv9 spells freeze, since no enemies ever use Lv9 spells (and the recharge still recharges during the screen freeze, which is a nice Lv9 spell perk).

I'll try to work on Hellfire.  It's been a while, but hopefully, I can figure things out.  Maybe.



Okay, I tested some of the new stuff.
-What exactly does Ring_Menu_Highlight do?  I know it said that it grayscales the menu that's not open, but I don't know what that means.
-If I enable Charge_While_Blocking and I use Glove and I end up doing judo throw while charging, I can't switch sides until I recover my stamina.

I love how non-instant-timing blocks makes you recharge your stamina after blocking something (I don't know if this was always a thing, but I sure am glad).  And holy crap I love the judo throw counter.  That looks so damn cool!  You indicated that the direction which you're facing dictates which throw comes out.  There are 4 throws in the game, and there are 4 directions, so maybe you can make all 4 throws available, instead of just 2 throws?  Specifically, judo throw and suplex both change direction (so left and right), and power bomb and pile driver both do jumping attack (so up and down).  Also, how does damage work for throws?  I see that throws do damage against weak enemies, but not tough enemies (not that I have any problem with throws not doing any damage, since they're doing their job of stopping enemy's movements).

The quick spell + pattern input... I wish there was some sort of explanation within the game that tells us which input calls which spell.  I mean, I was able to figure it out after trials and error (1st direction selects which spirit set, the 2nd direction selects which specific spirit, then 3rd direction decides which specific spell of that spirit), but I don't know if everyone else will be able to figure that out.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2021, 08:06:41 am by hmsong »

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210313
« Reply #1950 on: March 14, 2021, 07:13:30 am »
The sendspace link doesn't seem like it's working to me.

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210313
« Reply #1951 on: March 14, 2021, 08:02:53 am »
The sendspace link doesn't seem like it's working to me.

Sendspace is sometimes down today.  Give it time and try later, and it'll return.  It did for me.

Mr X

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210313
« Reply #1952 on: March 14, 2021, 09:53:52 am »
Sendspace is sometimes down today.  Give it time and try later, and it'll return.  It did for me.

Oh ok I see in that case I will just try from time to time.

Granivolus

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210313
« Reply #1953 on: March 16, 2021, 05:59:43 pm »
Hey! I'm a fellow player who first tried Turbo with version 190701, and just tried out the newest version. I gotta say, I really love the improvements, but I'd like to request one particular change:

I really like the idea of having all spells in the hotkeys, but I'm not really a fan of how the hotkeys are restricted to 4 directions and makes the spells take three menus to get to (Dual Elemental, Solo elemental, and then spell). In 190701, you could set spells into one of 8 slots for Primm and popoi each; perhaps there's a way where can get all 8 elementals into each hotkey spot for 1 menu, and then have the second menu be 4 spaces with the spells in there? I think that'd be the most accessible Hotkey menu possible. Having to sort through 3 menus to get to a spell in the heat of battle is a bit time consuming, so trimming it down to 2 menus would greatly benefit it's usage. Overall, i sincerely thank you for working on Turbo for so long and doing so much for the game, and I can't wait to see what else you do for the project~

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210313
« Reply #1954 on: March 17, 2021, 12:00:07 am »
@ManaRedux

In one of the conversations with one of the Tasnica knights after the Darkstalker thing, he says, "His Excellency trusts Jema before all others.  He's willing to doubt his own skills as a leader... ...and let Jema influence things. He was the good rival of the legendary knight, Serin..."

-That makes it sound like it was the chancellor (and not Jema) who was the good rival of Serin.

-The chancellor is "willing to doubt his own skills"?  And the soldier says it like it's a good thing?  Is there no way to make it sound more... positive?  Perhaps, the chancellor is "humble about his own skills"?  Or maybe "downplays his own skills"?

-Grammatical error? -- I think it should be "and lets Jema influence things", since the soldier's talking about the chancellor.

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210313
« Reply #1955 on: March 17, 2021, 10:19:16 am »
@ManaRedux

In one of the conversations with one of the Tasnica knights after the Darkstalker thing, he says, "His Excellency trusts Jema before all others.  He's willing to doubt his own skills as a leader... ...and let Jema influence things. He was the good rival of the legendary knight, Serin..."

-That makes it sound like it was the chancellor (and not Jema) who was the good rival of Serin.

-The chancellor is "willing to doubt his own skills"?  And the soldier says it like it's a good thing?  Is there no way to make it sound more... positive?  Perhaps, the chancellor is "humble about his own skills"?  Or maybe "downplays his own skills"?

-Grammatical error? -- I think it should be "and lets Jema influence things", since the soldier's talking about the chancellor.

The Japanese line implies that Jema is a cut above the rest (perhaps "man without parallel"). 

For your first point, yes, but only out of context.  I think the player knows who it refers to from the Tasnica scenario.  If we do another revision (which won't be for a long time), I might change it.

For your second point, perhaps, but not sure that's strong enough to warrant a change.  The sentiment doesn't change that much.

For your third point, it's correct as it is.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2021, 10:26:57 am by ManaRedux »

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210313
« Reply #1956 on: March 17, 2021, 08:48:27 pm »
@ManaRedux

Oh, okay.  I'll still post things up if I find any error, for the time when you update SAP.

Now that I think about it, I think, "He's willing to doubt his own skills as a leader... ...and let Jema influence things." was supposed to be, "Jema downplays his own skills as a leader... ...and lets others influence things."  That seems to make way more sense.



@Queue

Say, could you add the magic recharge mods for your newer spells?  So far, there are 3.  Of course, you can change the timing for these spells (I just put what I thought would be correct).

Code: [Select]
IF Magic_Recharging ' compat
IF Spell_System_Extensions
IF _Inferno_Barrier_-_Replaces_Blaze_Wall
%OFF% tbl_magicRechargeTime[11] ' Inferno Barrier
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_MEDIUM
ENDIF x3

IF Magic_Recharging ' compat
IF Spell_System_Extensions
IF _Shadow_Saber_-_Replaces_Evil_Gate
%OFF% tbl_magicRechargeTime[24] ' Shadow Saber
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_SHORT
ENDIF x3

IF Magic_Recharging ' compat
IF Spell_System_Extensions
IF _Lunar_Magic_-_Celestial_Cascade
%OFF% tbl_magicRechargeTime[1A] ' Lunar Magic
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_MEDIUM
ENDIF x3

And could you add the magic recharge mod for Black Hex?

Code: [Select]
IF Magic_Recharging ' compat
' exchange recast times (can't use COPY)
%OFF% tbl_magicRechargeTime[0D] ' Dispel Magic
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_MEDIUM
%OFF% tbl_magicRechargeTime[26] ' Black Hex
ADR.16 MAGIC_TIME_LONG
ENDIF

Changing the colors of Hellfire Lv3 is much harder than I thought it would be.  I'm looking at the past notes for Dust Flare (for reference), but I guess my notes weren't thorough enough.  For Dust Flare (which is just Fire Bouquet), where did $C81000 come from? (for target color)  And where did $D1F600 come from? (for animation color)  Those are specifically for Fire Bouquet animations, so I'm wondering how I would find for Evil Gate colors.

Since Reborn won't be updated for a while, could you merge that Reborn + Relocalized thing that you mentioned before?

Thanks in advance.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2021, 10:27:40 pm by hmsong »

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210313
« Reply #1957 on: March 17, 2021, 11:41:51 pm »
@Queue, I sent a message earlier about the discovered map.  It turned out to be the moogle village.  Halfway down this page: https://manaredux.com/locations/upper-land/

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210317
« Reply #1958 on: March 18, 2021, 04:09:15 am »
Version 2021-03-17:
https://filebin.net/7spaiz2xfys6b2i1/SoM_Turbo.210317.zip

Changes:
- implemented Quality_of_Life\QuickSpell_Hotkeys\QuickItems (which requires Patterned_Inputs)
- added event 16D to Text\Event_Fixes
- improved Audio\ZSNES_MSU-1 to fix a hang upon reset due to party death when using ZSNES versions other than the official 1.51, bumped version number to 0.4 and removed Experimental status (it's not perfect, but it's well tested now)
- improved Bug_Fixes\Ring_Menu_Error_Message to fix a crazy vanilla bug that occurs when you press B and Y (accept + cancel) at the same time on an unusable ring menu icon; try it (without the fix) with the rope or drum where they can't be used or cup of wishes when nobody is dead to see what happens
- improvements to QuickSpell_Hotkeys weapon / spell palette interactions; still some edge cases, but better than it was
- fixed QuickSpell_Hotkeys behavior multiplayer when changing areas, talking to NPCs, and other events, including a fix for a crash if a quick menu was open when a boss was defeated

Technical Changes:
- enhanced and corrected inlined getPlayerChar() function
- slight adjustment to Enable_MSU-1 startup logic; unimportant, but listed for completeness



hmsong, Ring_Menu_Highlight affects the hero's face portraits down in the HUD UI at the bottom of the screen; the character whose ring menu is open will be in color, and the other 2 will be grayed out.

I'll take a look at how Charge_While_Blocking interacts with stamina / exhaustion. I hadn't tested that at all yet.

I actually plan to remove the piledriver as a Manual_Block throw if I can make up / down variants of the judo throw. What you propose is neat since it'd play any of the 4 animations, but since blocking is now directional, it would mean you'd be forced to use a given throw type when facing a certain direction (and some throws are more useful than others). The judo throw is the only one that actually does what I want: countering the blocked enemy by throwing them a decent distance and where it looks like you're using the enemy's momentum against them. NPC allies can still use all 4 throws as attacks, so if you want to see the piledriver, power bomb or suplex, give an NPC ally the glove weapon. As for throw damage, generally you don't hurt the enemy who you throw (you never should, but it seems like sometimes you do... this game has bugs), but if another enemy is near you when you throw, that second enemy will get hit for basic glove weapon damage. The damage might be affected be stamina / exhaustion, I only tested with Turbo_Mode so only saw normal uncharged weapon damage.

The Patterned_Inputs are meant to be learnable by simply puzzling them out like you did, unlike the bindable hotkeys which you basically have to read the instructions to use. I'll cover this more in my reply to Granivolus.

I'll get those spell recast times into the next release. I had already finalized today's update before I came to the forums. I'll go review some of the spell animation stuff and get back to you. And the Reborn event text + Relocalized menu text will happen at some point, it's just really tedious to set up; a quick test worked well enough, but there's a lot of feature REQ/IF/IFNOT compat stuff that has to be adjusted for it to work correctly.



Granivolus, I did consider having the elementals be an 8-way selection, but playtesting found it to not work especially well. Here's why:
- With the older bindable menu, you press L (and release), hold a direction and press B (and release), press the D-Pad to pick a target, let go of everything and press B to confirm.
- The Patterned_Inputs system is meant to be learned, like fighting game moves, with a high ceiling for input speed: you hold L, input 3 rapid D-Pad directions, then press B (while still holding L), for the minimum cast time. However, it's flexible, and you don't have to hold L; instead you can press it, use the D-Pad to look around and learn the elemental pairs, select one with B, then choose between the two elementals, select one with B, then use the D-Pad to look at the spell choices, select one with B, then choose a target, then cast with B. There's also an in between speed where you open the menu with an L press, hold Y or X (or A for QuickItems) and do the D-Pad inputs while still holding Y or X (or A), then release before the final B press to cast.

Anyway, the point is that you can't do diagonal inputs (without like, a numpad on a keyboard) unless they're held and then a confirmation button is pressed. That works fine with only a single layer menu, but it drastically slows things down when you have to wait for button / D-Pad releases between each layer.

I'm likely going to add an even faster option of Hold L + 3 D-Pad inputs + Release L to cast as an expert technique option after having gotten some time in playtesting further.

And then, all of that said, you can turn off Patterned_Inputs and it'll be back to the custom binding system it used before.

How I envision things is:
- Patterned_Inputs works for beginners because it's usable even if you don't read the instructions
- custom binds are intermediate difficulty (gotta RTFM) and if you really only want access to a few spells they're a good option that keeps quick spell use simple (setting them up is the confusing part)
- and then Patterned_Inputs offers a high mechanical skill option if you want to memorize a bunch of input patterns and have access to all spells and items without the ring menu

I swear I've put some thought into this and tried quite a few things along the way. But again, you can still use the custom binds by disabling Patterned_Inputs. Since you do know how that system works, I definitely encourage its use still.



ManaRedux, there, now I see the new village image. I suspect manaredux.com had a stale cache for a little bit again. That is super neat, and somewhat baffling of a change... I don't see an obvious (technical) reason why that map couldn't have been the moogle village + pebbler fight area...

I wonder if they felt it was simply too similar to the nearby sprite village and feared players would get the two confused?

Or maybe they felt thematically those building were too fancy for moogles if sprites also had the same structures?

Based on that image, all three doors had triggers in them (the doors that lacks triggers have light that forms a triangle instead of a trapezoid: compare the light in the doorways of the sprite village to these). Maybe they hadn't made the interiors yet (no doors or maps that would fit that purpose exist), and so scrapped the huts?

The moogle village tileset does still have those structures (well, everything in that image). And it's plausible they directly converted that into what was released since the map sizes look close enough that they may be the same (42x42).

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210317
« Reply #1959 on: March 18, 2021, 07:46:02 am »
Aww, I honestly would like many throws to exist via manual way (I want to perform throws whenever I choose, instead of waiting around for AIs to do it for me), esp since most vanilla players don't even know the existence of throws other than the judo throw.  Me, I just want them all because they look so damn cool ("Wrestler in All of Us" trope applies here).

I suppose judo throw gets the job done of "countering melee attack" thing in logical sense, but I still think other throws can make an argument for the counters (in Tekken reversals, the reversal throw used depends on which limb is used to attack the defender -- yes, even suplex and pile driver is used as counter throw if two limbs are used to attack the defender, such as Paul using jumping pile driver to counter Mishima's somersault kick).

I didn't know that throwing your enemy at others can damage them.  That makes throws even cooler than it already is.

If you're worried about certain throws only coming out for one specific direction, then maybe you can make it so that if you enable [Charge_While_Blocking] and you charge to certain level and block, you do different throws -- vanilla can only do up to Lv3 charge, but maybe you can make it all the way to Lv8 (Lv0~2=judo throw, Lv3~4=suplex, Lv5~6=power bomb, Lv7~8=pile driver).  I actually wish you can make it so that Lv4+ throws do some sort of chain throws like Tekken, but that's probably asking too much.


I'm not sure if this is vanilla error, but Water/Ice Thug's spinning fork attack doesn't seem to actually hit anything.  That's not meant to be a taunt or something to surprise the players, right?  Also, for [Monster AI Improvement] for Kid Goblin, what does that do?  I don't see any difference in Kid Goblin behaviors (I suck at noticing things though).


For Patterned Inputs for both spells and items, maybe you can make it so that it's consistent and only uses 3 directions for the 3 possible spells/items?  So if you were to use 3 directions (ex: left, down, right) for 3rd input (spell selection of specific spirit), 1st spell will always be left, 2nd spell will always be down, and 3rd spell will always be right.  For example, Balloon (2st spell of Sylphid) is currently Left, Down, Up... but maybe you can make it so that it is Left, Down, Down (since 2nd spell is Down) -- easier to remember.  Or better yet, also make it so that specific spirits (2nd input) can only be left or right.  So for Sylphid's Balloon (2nd spirit, 2nd spell), it'll be Left, Right, Down.

My point is, just having less possible inputs make the whole memorization thing a lot easier, esp if those inputs are consistent.  At least, for me it is.  Btw, up is usually harder to press than the other 3 directions, which is why I suggest you use left, down, and right, esp if you're used to fighting games.  Maybe Up can be used as a backward input? (so pressing Up on 3rd input will make you go back to 2nd input?)

What do you think?  I'm brainstorming ideas, hopefully for easier memorization.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2021, 08:14:20 am by hmsong »