News: 11 March 2016 - Forum Rules
Current Moderators - DarkSol, KingMike, MathOnNapkins, Azkadellia, Danke

Author Topic: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210502  (Read 504020 times)

Memorex

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 35
    • View Profile
Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210217
« Reply #1880 on: February 17, 2021, 03:45:42 pm »
When talking to Jema before going to Mana holy land, the word "mana" is capitalized in all cases except one.
Also the words "sword" and "tree" are capitalized even when they're not combined with "Mana", but I assume that is intentional.
I.e "the Sword", "the Tree".

*Edit: I'm now quite sure that the words Sword and Tree where capitalized in vanilla as well.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2021, 04:38:22 pm by Memorex »

ManaRedux

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 156
    • View Profile
    • Secret of Mana: Redux
Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210217
« Reply #1881 on: February 17, 2021, 05:51:14 pm »
When talking to Jema before going to Mana holy land, the word "mana" is capitalized in all cases except one.
Also the words "sword" and "tree" are capitalized even when they're not combined with "Mana", but I assume that is intentional.
I.e "the Sword", "the Tree".

*Edit: I'm now quite sure that the words Sword and Tree where capitalized in vanilla as well.


You may be playing an older version.  We fixed the Jema mistake.

As things like Mana Tree and Mana Sword are proper names, it makes sense to have Tree and Sword capitalized too.

hmsong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 562
    • View Profile
Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210217
« Reply #1882 on: February 17, 2021, 09:20:17 pm »
@Queue

I tried Only_Weak_Obstacles.  It works great.  On testing, I noticed that axe doesn't cut grass tiles, even in vanilla (it cuts bush just fine).  I mean, grass isn't really important since you can walk right over grass, but I just find that hilarious.

Quote
The gap on that text box frame is a technical limitation. That border's tile's pixels can only be black, gray, white or transparent. So that gap can only be colored black, gray or white, or the frame can be narrowed so that it's adjacent to the interior tiles, but then you lose the extra spacing. For Alternate_Text_Boxes, I added the edges of a grid to that frame so that it'd mesh with the two large grid backgrounds, but that's possibly as good as it gets.

Better_Default_Text_Boxes lets you choose the style number, which is a frame / background pair. On the text box edit screen, notice how if you press up/down, each frame has a specific background with it, which you can then change? They're all defined in pairs. I might be able to change it so all pairs default to a specified background number, but that's low priority.

I see.  Then could you switch the default background for frame 0 from 0 to 2?  And then edit the edge frame 0 match 2?
0:     2:

As I played, I found that background 0 and 1 makes the reading quite hard.  I actually prefer solid, but I'm guessing you'd like that to go with 3, since that's your default setting.

Queue

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 560
    • View Profile
Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210217
« Reply #1883 on: February 17, 2021, 10:30:52 pm »
There's no way for any of the frame borders to cleanly tile with an odd (1x1, 3x3, etc.) background pattern. That's why it's paired with an even (2x2) pattern.

Grab a tile editor, switch the format to Game Boy (2bpp), and go to file offset 0x12D080; you'll be at the text box graphics:

Make edits to the ones you can see in the far upper left in that screenshot, then go check how they behave in-game. That's the one used for typical text boxes. The other pipe border you see part way down is the version used in the fullscreen menus.

Those orangey patterns are the backgrounds. Only the first tile in each set of 8 is actually used by the game, the others aren't used.

Memorex

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 35
    • View Profile
Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210217
« Reply #1884 on: February 18, 2021, 10:44:36 am »
You may be playing an older version.  We fixed the Jema mistake.

As things like Mana Tree and Mana Sword are proper names, it makes sense to have Tree and Sword capitalized too.

Ah, yes, I had loaded the wrong rom  :-[

Josenev

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210217
« Reply #1885 on: February 18, 2021, 02:06:11 pm »
Hey guys, I’m new around here and I’ve enjoyed this hack a lot, thanks.

I come here to know something, look, when I was playing the hackgame I was amazed by the new stuff and the changes in the playgame, but in the meantime, a thought came to me: is it possible to change/update/reimagine the graphics?

you know, I love the visuals forms from the game, but it’s a very old pixelart treatment.

And here goes an example about what I mean:



the color palette of the new pixelart is from Seiken Densetsu 2 and 3 colors.

I would be glad to hear your opinion. Bye.
 

hmsong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 562
    • View Profile
Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210217
« Reply #1886 on: February 18, 2021, 09:09:48 pm »
@Queue

I'm gonna work on the frames to see if I can make it into something I like with the default frame (I forgot how it worked, so I'm looking back at pg43).  Since you said it's unlikely that it'll work, I won't get any hopes up, but I shall try things with Tile Layer.  If it doesn't work, then it doesn't work.  Oh well.


@ManaRedux

Say, I noticed that some people (after their name display) have Caps after "...", whereas others don't.  Most of them were lower case though, so I'm guessing that was your intention.  Still, some were caps.  Were the caps intentional?

For example, in event 55E, there's:
Code: [Select]
TEXT [G] : . . . ^O h ! _ ^P a m e l a ! \n
Personally, I prefer caps for the first letter after the "...", assuming it's after a name.  But that's just me.

ManaRedux

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 156
    • View Profile
    • Secret of Mana: Redux
Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210217
« Reply #1887 on: February 18, 2021, 09:15:43 pm »
@ManaRedux
Say, I noticed that some people (after their name display) have Caps after "...", whereas others don't. 

I didn't look through the entire script, but it seems we were consistent in capitalizing names and beginning of sentences after ..., and not capitalizing if it's the continuation of a textbox or if ... just breaks a thought in the same sentence.  It's a good thing to bring up, because Taosenai and myself handled this situation differently, and it's good to confirm that we ironed things out. 

Queue

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 560
    • View Profile
Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210217
« Reply #1888 on: February 18, 2021, 10:59:21 pm »
Quote from: hmsong
I forgot how it worked, so I'm looking back at pg43.
Note that you won't have to do the decoding / encoding steps for text box graphics. Those instructions are only for 3bpp graphics, which are ring menu icons, weapons and spell effects. Text box and HUD are 2bpp. Player / NPC / enemy / boss sprites and environment art (generally) are 4bpp.

So for the text boxes, you can just edit as-is. In Tile Layer Pro, View > Format > Game Boy (where "Game Boy" is what they labeled this format of 2bpp graphics). Remember that the colors in a tile editor have nothing to do with the colors you'll see in-game.

ManaRedux, doing a quick search, I count 25 instances of a speaker label (:) followed by ellipsis (...) followed by a non-capitalized letter. I can't get at the spreadsheet right this second, so I can only give nearby row numbers with the text (instead of exact row numbers, it's a row number somewhat before the text):
Spoiler:
Code: [Select]
~row# text
826 LUKA:...the Mana Holy Land?
1793 [B]:...huh? He must mean
2231 [G]:...we'll see...
2503 [G]:...look! There's
2695 MERILLAT:...have some
2887 CHANCELLOR:...ugh! ...what
2905 CHANCELLOR(?):...hahaha...
2905 [B]:...or not. Just try
3442 MARIKTO:...yee hee hee
4132 DRYAD:...but, what can
4380 GRANDPA:...hum, surely
4551 ZEKE:...well done. If you
4594 ELDER:...oh, [B].
4650 GIRL:...hey!
4650 GIRL:...hey, you over there!
4793 [G]:...our dear [S]...
4793 [B]:...yeah, me neither!
4827 KRISSIE:...all right. We'll
4898 EMPEROR:...very well, I
4920 GESHTAR:...you...you'll come
5016 THANATOS:...is that so!? I
5063 [G]:...please!
5233 [B]:...whatever works for
5326 [B]:...what is this
5326 [G]:...somehow, it feels
Obviously some or all of those may be fine, but those should be all of them that fit that criteria.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2021, 11:20:36 pm by Queue »

SnesFaust

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 6
    • View Profile
Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210217
« Reply #1889 on: February 19, 2021, 12:35:32 am »
I went back to the Forest of seasons to try and duplicate the open chest freeze bug. It seems it was just an anomaly of an older build I hope.

I've noticed that the soundtrack seems to cut "channels" of sound when competing against sound effects in game. It's across the board. I'm running the build on an FXPAK pro on an Nt through an amp, then to headphones, so the problem could be there?

Speaking of Fxpak, I've taken a screenshot of game on the tv as requested (@Queue). I can't wait to put the final version on a cart and let the nostalgia flow. Also included are pictures of the box art I designed as well as the cart label. Not sure of the shell i want to go with yet, maybe transparent black? ...Just a tad exited about your work here.

https://imgur.com/a/gT80HpK

Thinking about making a printed players guide for the hack to showcase even more SOM Art from the Days of Mana series. Going for a full 1993 SNES experience.


ManaRedux

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 156
    • View Profile
    • Secret of Mana: Redux
Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210217
« Reply #1890 on: February 19, 2021, 12:39:56 am »
ManaRedux, doing a quick search, I count 25 instances of a speaker label (:) followed by ellipsis (...) followed by a non-capitalized letter. I can't get at the spreadsheet right this second, so I can only give nearby row numbers with the text (instead of exact row numbers, it's a row number somewhat before the text):
Spoiler:
Code: [Select]
~row# text
826 LUKA:...the Mana Holy Land?
1793 [B]:...huh? He must mean
2231 [G]:...we'll see...
2503 [G]:...look! There's
2695 MERILLAT:...have some
2887 CHANCELLOR:...ugh! ...what
2905 CHANCELLOR(?):...hahaha...
2905 [B]:...or not. Just try
3442 MARIKTO:...yee hee hee
4132 DRYAD:...but, what can
4380 GRANDPA:...hum, surely
4551 ZEKE:...well done. If you
4594 ELDER:...oh, [B].
4650 GIRL:...hey!
4650 GIRL:...hey, you over there!
4793 [G]:...our dear [S]...
4793 [B]:...yeah, me neither!
4827 KRISSIE:...all right. We'll
4898 EMPEROR:...very well, I
4920 GESHTAR:...you...you'll come
5016 THANATOS:...is that so!? I
5063 [G]:...please!
5233 [B]:...whatever works for
5326 [B]:...what is this
5326 [G]:...somehow, it feels
Obviously some or all of those may be fine, but those should be all of them that fit that criteria.

Yeah, I think everything is consistent with my message to hmsong. 

doodlum

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 1
    • View Profile
Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210217
« Reply #1891 on: February 19, 2021, 06:14:10 am »
For a new player to the series who wants to play the game with QoL and more balanced gameplay etc. what would the recommendations be for what patches to use? Turbo's defaults seem to make the game faster paced and harder, but maybe I just suck. Perhaps there should be presets added for different desired experiences.

Memorex

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 35
    • View Profile
Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210217
« Reply #1892 on: February 19, 2021, 10:05:36 am »

I've noticed that the soundtrack seems to cut "channels" of sound when competing against sound effects in game. It's across the board. I'm running the build on an FXPAK pro on an Nt through an amp, then to headphones, so the problem could be there?


There is a patch within this hack that aims to prevent sound fx getting played back through sound channels 1-5. While it made a huge improvement at first,
the sound of running footsteps and stair steps, and also the ring menu still seems to cancel parts of the music. Or else I'm doing something wrong with the patch! I would love to hear more info on this issue. Towards the end of the game some songs like "Steel and Snare" and "Leave time for love" suffers greatly when the drums and choir respectively dissappears frequently.  >:(


February 19, 2021, 10:38:21 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
The snowmen in the Mana Fortress glitch heavily when magic spells are cast on this screen:



This only happened once, still weird:



Palette glitch, might occur in Vanilla as well?

« Last Edit: February 19, 2021, 10:38:21 am by Memorex »

SnesFaust

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 6
    • View Profile
Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210217
« Reply #1893 on: February 19, 2021, 10:52:40 am »


There is a patch within this hack that aims to prevent sound fx getting played back through sound channels 1-5. While it made a huge improvement at first,
the sound of running footsteps and stair steps, and also the ring menu still seems to cancel parts of the music. Or else I'm doing something wrong with the patch! I would love to hear more info on this issue. Towards the end of the game some songs like "Steel and Snare" and "Leave time for love" suffers greatly when the drums and choir respectively dissappears frequently.  >:(

I first noticed it in 210215 after defeating the witch. Only running was shortening the high pitched "bell" in the theme. To my ears, killing mobs in Gaia's Navel (with girl) definitely "cuts channels". I wish i had the knowledge to help but at this point, i am just a beta tester.  :laugh:


Queue

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 560
    • View Profile
Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210217
« Reply #1894 on: February 19, 2021, 03:32:05 pm »
doodlum, the defaults should leave most of the game fairly easy, especially if you make use of the block ability, and pin enemies down with melee. The very beginning of the game is harder than vanilla intentionally to convince you to block, with the tutorial boss being extra good at killing you so you get the in-game instructions on how to block (and once you start blocking, he can be defeated without taking any damage).

I, at least, don't want to manage keeping different preset config files up-to-date as new features are added, because I won't use them, and I don't want to be saddled with something as abstract as balancing difficulty for an infinite possibility of players.



Josenev, those mock-ups are really nice looking, but as-is wouldn't be feasible to put in game.

Each of the three heroes has a tile budget of around 1024 8x8 tiles. Each of those tiles is assembled into 2x2 sprites, where tiles are often flipped (horizontally, vertically, or both) to save on video memory (and ROM) usage. An arbitrary number (usually 2 to 4) of those sprites are then placed to display the character.

Each hero has something like 228 frames of animation.

Each hero has a 15 color palette (plus transparent), so all tiles for a given hero must all be designed to those 15 colors.

Here are the three basic standing poses, plus those 3 mock-ups, showing sprite and tile boundaries. The girl's head is two mirrored halves, and the sprite is entirely mirrored. Light fuchsia tiles are empty. Light red tiles highlight pixels that overflow boundaries. They're hard to spot, but the 5 light green tiles highlight mirroring failures.

Your pictures were JPG, so colors got at least a little eff'd up by compression.



The boy is off-centered to make him fit boundaries better, but it'd potentially help animations if his eyes were centered.



SnesFaust, those pictures are great, thank you for sharing!

That sound issue is a mixture of SNES hardware limitation, and design decision by the SoM developers (it's not specific to your setup).

The SNES has 8 sound channels. To let SoM's music be as rich as possible, they allow music to use all 8 channels, but then temporarily let sounds override channels on demand. Other games have a fixed split of the channels for music and sound (say, 6 music, 2 sound effects), or they use a similar override mechanism but limit music to 4 or 6 channels in the first place so that overrides aren't as common.

Using MSU-1 music tracks frees up all 8 sound channels for sound effects. But if music is done by SNES native sound hardware, there's no way around this hardware limitation / design decision. It can be mitigated (remove common sounds like footsteps, or heck, entirely disabling sounds), and I can imagine a huge effort could be made to change some music's sound channel use organization so less major parts of the music cut out (but that's unrealistic), but there's no magical fix.



Memorex, while the animation is a mess, casting spells on them intentionally vaporizes them without granting a drop; someday I'd like to rework them so it's snow puffs flying apart. Honestly it's a miracle that enemy works at all; was a serious hack job to even make them work as they do currently.

The Dark Lich thing is a goofy vanilla flaw. I enjoy ending the fight at the top edge of the room. Harmless though as you get repositioned after that.

Mana Beast item ring colors is a hardware limitation. The SNES palette just runs out of room for a totally full item ring plus Mana Beast mode 7 text box at the same time. The game normally grayscales enemies while the ring menu is open to free up palette space, but that mechanism isn't suitable for the Mana Beast fight that doesn't free up palette slots used for the mode 7 text box. Visit a merchant in a combat area (like Lofty Mountains Neko), and note that enemy colors get mangled instead.

Edit: Was misremembering why the ring menu is discolored. Note the grayscaled ground platform; during mode 7 boss fights (Slimes, Mana Beast), the environment and text box is composed of sprites and the boss is drawn on the background layer, so the ring menu grayscales the environment instead of the enemies. The HUD switches the bottom edge of the screen back to mode 1 so if you look carefully, you'll see the Slimes and Mana Beast cut off near the bottom screen edge.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2021, 08:56:56 pm by Queue »

PabloGaldini

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210217
« Reply #1895 on: February 20, 2021, 09:10:16 am »


SnesFaust, those pictures are great, thank you for sharing!

That sound issue is a mixture of SNES hardware limitation, and design decision by the SoM developers (it's not specific to your setup).

The SNES has 8 sound channels. To let SoM's music be as rich as possible, they allow music to use all 8 channels, but then temporarily let sounds override channels on demand. Other games have a fixed split of the channels for music and sound (say, 6 music, 2 sound effects), or they use a similar override mechanism but limit music to 4 or 6 channels in the first place so that overrides aren't as common.

Using MSU-1 music tracks frees up all 8 sound channels for sound effects. But if music is done by SNES native sound hardware, there's no way around this hardware limitation / design decision. It can be mitigated (remove common sounds like footsteps, or heck, entirely disabling sounds), and I can imagine a huge effort could be made to change some music's sound channel use organization so less major parts of the music cut out (but that's unrealistic), but there's no magical fix.


Sorry guys, I forgot about the MSU-1 converter project for exactly a year and found that my links had expired. If you want the converter script that allows you to create a perfect MSU-1 version (compatible with emulators, SD2SNES and FXPACK flash carts) that combats the problem of sounds cutting out, but retains the original (and best!) original SNES music, check this post over on the Zeldix forums:

https://www.zeldix.net/t1647-secret-of-mana-script-for-converting-the-remaster-soundtrack#33162

You'll need the official PC remaster of the game from Steam (or whichever source) that includes the remastered as well as the original SNES music as audio files to convert the tracks to MSU-1.

I also remember that when I originally posted in this thread, Queue made an revised version of the script, but I cannot remember what exactly was changed. As the description of the script that I posted in the Zeldix forum is accurate, I've uploaded "my" edited version only. If you still remember what you changed Queue and would be okay with me uploading that version of the converter script as well, I can upload that one too.

Josenev

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210217
« Reply #1896 on: February 20, 2021, 12:50:15 pm »
Hello Queue! first of all, thank you for your guidance and consideration. I didn’t know anything about these limitations (in fact, I had no idea about it until you tell me), so I reworked it again:



this time I upload them in PNG and the preview in JPG, I don’t know what is the best format for revise the work, sorry.

I think now I resolve the issues of the standing poses, every character have now 15 colors, they fit well in the boxes and the mirror effect is clean now, Primm’s head was a real pain in the ass, haha.

I’ll try to make the side and back poses next time, and maybe some graphic stage.

Thanks in advance for your help.

« Last Edit: February 20, 2021, 01:06:28 pm by Josenev »

Memorex

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 35
    • View Profile
Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210217
« Reply #1897 on: February 20, 2021, 07:00:03 pm »
Queue Yeah I noticed the menu palette glitch when fighting the slime boss again after you pointed it out.

So the snowmen in the Fortress weren't in vanilla to begin with? I havn't played through it in quite a number of years..

Noticed another glitch today, after Dark Lich I tried to use the magic rope and got this:



It only occurs the very first time I attempt to use it after the boss battle, if I try it again it displays correctly.

February 21, 2021, 06:17:30 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Finished the game last night. Very satisfying experience indeed!
Many of the new features and tweaks really made me question how people ever managed without them back in the days.
Playing through the game this way with the original script restored felt surreal and it really scratched an itch that's
been building up for many years  :thumbsup:

There was two little vanilla-things that annoyed me during the course of the game:

1: Sometimes hard to tell if you're in the Sprites' or the Girls' meny ring when the characters are standing close to each other.
Perhaps if the frame around their portraits in the hud could be made to turn blue or something to give an indication..? Maybe it's just me  :)

2: When the Boy is unconscious(and also when engulfed, I think?), you can't access the other characters menu rings without switching character with select.
(With secondary weapon hack disabled.)

Great job guys! Looking forward to Secret of Mana 2 Turbo!  :D

   
« Last Edit: February 21, 2021, 06:19:30 am by Memorex »

TheChristoph

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 14
    • View Profile
Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210217
« Reply #1898 on: February 21, 2021, 04:39:43 pm »
I played through the hack this weekend and just finished the game. It was a really great experience. I completely forgot how the game sort of falls apart toward the end, but that has nothing to do with the hack. :)

The one thing I ended up being baffled by was the little heads that pop up when you press L. It seems like it's a realtime way to set the action grid. Maybe I didn't give it enough of a chance before going into the vanilla action grid, but it didn't seem to do anything.

SnesFaust

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 6
    • View Profile
Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 210217
« Reply #1899 on: February 22, 2021, 12:55:03 pm »
I played through the hack this weekend and just finished the game. It was a really great experience. I completely forgot how the game sort of falls apart toward the end, but that has nothing to do with the hack. :)

The one thing I ended up being baffled by was the little heads that pop up when you press L. It seems like it's a realtime way to set the action grid. Maybe I didn't give it enough of a chance before going into the vanilla action grid, but it didn't seem to do anything.

'L' is used to quick access spells after you associate them. :)