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Author Topic: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200729  (Read 327889 times)

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200716
« Reply #1540 on: July 19, 2020, 03:28:39 pm »
That's a common misconception about Mode 7. And, well, it doesn't really work how I expect you think it does. This will be a little technical but I'll try my best at explaining.

The SNES has 8 background modes (abbreviated to BG mode or just mode from here on), numbered 0 through 7. So you can't "turn off" mode 7, you pick a different BG mode.

Mode 7 is the only BG mode that provides a background that can be rotated and scaled.

The top-down Flammie view makes use of the scaling to ascend (scale down / zoom out) or descend (scale up / zoom in) and rotates the background to represent turning so that Flammie can always face top-of-screen or bottom-of-screen.

The fake 3D projection lots of SNES games do makes use of rotating and clever use of scaling: it's rotated to face the desired direction, then every scanline the scale is changed to "zoom in" so that the top of the fake 3D projection is not stretched and looks far away, and the bottom is highly stretched (zoomed in) and looks close.

If you used a different BG mode for Flammie flight, north would always be up on the screen, and you couldn't zoom in or out. Turning would turn Flammie rather than the background (if the controls were unchanged). You'd also need art to represent Flammie facing different directions since there's no sprite rotation with baseline SNES. Some of the SoM bosses that do shrink / grow (e.g. the slimes) or rotate do so because those fights use mode 7 and put the boss's art on the mode 7 background layer so they can be scaled and rotated.

There's an additional wrinkle in that graphical data for the mode 7 background is a different format than the other 7 modes, so you can't just flip between them and use the same graphics: sprites and mode 0-6 backgrounds require one format, mode 7 background requires another. So there's no easy way to even try it out, all the world map tile art would need to be processed into the format needed for mode 0-6.

The globe map (also mode 7) and flat map (mode 3), don't even use the world map tile art, they have a palette that represents each tile as a single color, and use that palette to construct their respective tiles at run time.

Normal gameplay uses BG mode 1. The menu screens use BG mode... uh, 5 maybe? I'm not 100% sure on that.

You can approximate non-mode 7 flight by facing exactly north (you're facing exactly north when you first summon Flammie), and being at a height where tile pixels match screen pixels in size (not sure what height that'd be).

ManaRedux

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200716
« Reply #1541 on: July 19, 2020, 05:24:16 pm »
Interesting.  I more or less knew about how mode 7 made things look the way they are, but was not aware of how the background modes were implemented.

I must have misunderstood this from how it was implemented in Illusion of Gaia.  In game, it used the technique you describe, but the actual map looks like this:



That led me to believe that it was something that was "turned on" and off as stated.

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200723
« Reply #1542 on: July 19, 2020, 05:51:52 pm »
I think the equivalent for SoM would be:

(Click to enlarge, notice how freaking huge that is at 4096x4096 pixels.)
https://www.snesmaps.com/maps/SecretOfMana/000bSecretOfManaOverworldMap.html

SoM's world is 512x512 tiles (each tile is 8x8 pixels). It can't hold the whole map in memory at once: the mode 7 background is 128x128 tiles. So it constantly loads new tilemap data from the ROM as you move.

The globe map and flat map each represent each tile with 1 color, with the flat map (basically) being 256x256, so every 2x2 tile square then gets averaged for the color to show (this averaging process is largely why the flat map loads so damn slowly).



Long tine lurker here. I finally got around to trying this patch and its fantastic. Thanks so much for the work you've done. The .zps format makes for a really intuitive way to add/remove mods, effectively making this the definitive SoM romhack.

A little off-topic but has there been any talk of doing something similar for SoM sister-game Secret of Evermore? It would be great to see some quality of life mods for reducing weapon/magic level grinding, removing stamina countdown, streamlining charge attacks, etc. as seen here in SoM Turbo but without adding unnecessary increased difficulty as seen in the SoE Improvements patch.

Sorry for the delayed response, your post was held up in moderation so I only just recently noticed it.

At the very least, I have no interest in doing as much for Secret of Evermore. While Trials of Mana has been brought up quite a few times in this absurdly long thread, I don't recall Secret of Evermore being brought up to any memorable degree.



Version 2020-07-23:
https://filebin.net/7spaiz2xfys6b2i1/SoM_Turbo.200723.zip

Changes:
- Added hmsong's Combat\Strong_And_Weak_Attacks\Alternate_Attack_Set
- Added some coastline and sunken continent tile fixes to Enhanced_World_Map

Technical Changes:
- Some virtual file hierarchy restructuring to support Alternate_Attack_Set
« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 07:42:30 pm by Queue »

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200723
« Reply #1543 on: July 28, 2020, 02:25:53 am »

kethinov

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200723
« Reply #1544 on: July 28, 2020, 08:32:49 am »
OMG, Christmas came early! I didn't even know you were working on command line support, or testing in Mono!

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200729
« Reply #1545 on: July 29, 2020, 03:49:10 pm »
Version 2020-07-29:
https://filebin.net/7spaiz2xfys6b2i1/SoM_Turbo.200729.zip

Changes:
- Added audio feedback to Text\Abortable_Dialog so you can tell if a text box closed early



kethinov, was hoping you'd see that screenshot. I hope it'll be ready to release next week, but no promises. Also whoops, accidentally included a Patcher_Linux.txt file in the readmes\_extras folder that isn't relevant yet. It requires, I think, mono-complete and mono-vbnc; not sure if there's a lesser variant than mono-complete that'd still work and I may or may not get to testing to figure that out. I'm also not sure if it works in a text-mode-only or headless setup; while I'm preempting window drawing to jam in command line parsing, and trying not to load anything window related if //nogui is specified, I'm not positive it never hits a class with a dependency on them (or if that actually matters). But at the very least it allows automation (and on Windows, drag&drop and file association) and is working in my Linux test environment (Ubuntu 16.04). And worth noting, the GUI does work on Linux (+ Mono, obviously) as well. It may mean OSX + Mono works as well, but who knows; I'm not testing that, already frustrated enough with Linux (possibly actually Mono doing what's been frustrating, but I don't know that either).

kethinov

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200729
« Reply #1546 on: July 29, 2020, 05:34:02 pm »
I'd certainly be happy to kick the tires for you on both Linux and Mac to see what the limits are. When you have a release ready, I'll start by making a handful of reference builds with different settings with the Windows GUI, then see if I can reproduce identical ROMs using the command line variant on both Linux and Mac and report back if there are any discrepancies.

Pornchai

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200729
« Reply #1547 on: August 05, 2020, 07:41:30 pm »
Will there be any other updates to the mechanics for this rom? I've been waiting until it's somewhat complete before me and my wife play this.

Also, is there a way to add additional levels to the game? I've seen secret of mana editors.

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200729
« Reply #1548 on: August 06, 2020, 02:12:22 am »
Will there be any other updates to the mechanics for this rom? I've been waiting until it's somewhat complete before me and my wife play this.

Also, is there a way to add additional levels to the game? I've seen secret of mana editors.

The mechanics for this rom is already complete.  The rest are just "additions" and "perks".  And remember, the editor allows you to CHOOSE which patch you want to apply and which ones you don't want.  I strongly suggest you to take a look at it -- many features, you may want to turn on or off (I turn off Spell Power Tweak, while turning on Spell Balance Overhaul).

Also, what do you mean by "additional levels"?  You mean, like an extra dungeon or something?  I'm certain SoM editor isn't compatible with Turbo though.

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200729
« Reply #1549 on: August 06, 2020, 02:16:31 pm »
I'm currently occupied with:
1) a SoM retranslation effort: https://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php?topic=30792.0
2) major compatibility improvements and commandline support for the ZPS patcher that this project uses
3) repairing collateral damage suffered from a water heater expiring (e.g. warped baseboards)

While I have plans for more stuff for Turbo, it's in a very solid state and you wouldn't be missing out if you just treated the version now as if it was final.

There's only one SoM editor I'm aware of, SoMEdit, by Mop, the same person who later went on to make the SoM Randomizer (formerly known as Ancient Cave, and which is an awesome project). That editor's output can't be used with Turbo, and often is hard to get to work on its own, and there's no major map edits that anyone has done using SoMEdit that have been released that I'm aware of. Turbo isn't compatible with the randomizer either.

The editor and randomizer make too fundamental of changes to the game's code and data to be practical to have Turbo be able to work with them, unfortunately.

lexluthermiester

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200709
« Reply #1550 on: Today at 09:24:40 am »
The current status is it's perpetual beta: you could grab a version at any point and enjoy it, but if you came back in 3 months, there'd be a few more features. This doesn't mean it has bugs (it does occasionally, but they get discovered and fixed): I don't subscribe to that definition of beta, it simply means not final.
IMHO, This project is of solid, stable quality that it can be considered a "final" releasable project than has rolling updates for feature improvements and additions. It just seems like it has earned an official project page. Nothing wrong with continuing developments in this thread and updating the project page every 6 months. Just throwing the thought out there.

Pornchai

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200729
« Reply #1551 on: Today at 05:50:26 pm »
The mechanics for this rom is already complete.  The rest are just "additions" and "perks".  And remember, the editor allows you to CHOOSE which patch you want to apply and which ones you don't want.  I strongly suggest you to take a look at it -- many features, you may want to turn on or off (I turn off Spell Power Tweak, while turning on Spell Balance Overhaul).

Also, what do you mean by "additional levels"?  You mean, like an extra dungeon or something?  I'm certain SoM editor isn't compatible with Turbo though.

Whats spell power tweak and spell balance overhaul? I just left the default options.