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Author Topic: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200211  (Read 188208 times)

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191230
« Reply #1100 on: December 31, 2019, 01:52:14 pm »
is there any chance of getting a seiken densetsu 3 turbo?
From me? Probably 0% chance.

I love Secret of Mana and wanted to do something about its flaws. It was also a good excuse to see how an SNES works.

I like Trials of Mana; its art is fantastic, its stories are decent, but way too many things about its combat I think are bad and beyond repair, and its itemization is absolutely terrible (though that can be fixed, and as far as I know, has been fixed by a hack). But without love to fuel the effort, I have no interest in even looking into it.

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191230
« Reply #1101 on: December 31, 2019, 06:09:24 pm »
I never played Trial of Mana, but I did play SD3.  While SD3 is great in many aspects, it indeed has many flaws (what game doesn't?).  Its agility stat doesn't work, the "combat" mode slows down PCs to the point of frustration (only the one you control), and the game punishes you for using damaging skills that freezes screen (magic, Lv2/3 tech, throw items), making them next to useless.  And above all else, the class system is quite unbalanced -- one/two class is usually far better than all other 2/3 classes (Duran and Liese are great examples of that).

If the major problems were fixed, it would make the game significantly better (I'm betting spell balance is pretty easy to fix if people knew which addresses to look, but making the PCs not slow down during the combat is sure to be difficult).

Happy New Years, everyone (from Korea).

kethinov

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191230
« Reply #1102 on: December 31, 2019, 06:35:59 pm »
Updated hack: No Missable Monsters 2.1: Luka no longer has monsters as pets. This was spun off into a separate hack called Luka's Pets. Also bundled "Revisit Kakkara" hack by Queue to make it possible to revisit the southern part of Kakkara desert and reverted Sand Stinger changes accordingly. http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4555/

New (sort of) hack: Luka's Pets 1.0: This was spun off from No Missable Monsters and expanded. This hack gives Luka a series of monsters as pets locked in her dungeon basement.

Which pet monster she has will change over time as the game progresses. The progression is indexed to Whip orb acquisition:

1. Water Thug (Whip orbs 1, 2, and 3)
2. Shellblast (Whip orbs 4 and 5)
3. Turtlance (Whip orbs 6 and 7)
4. Ice Thug (Whip orbs 8 and 9)



Download: http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4860/

As you suspected, I've updated the list again.  Specifically, the shop went through a MAJOR overhaul, at least, in programming sense, and will definitely not work with other shop mods (it changes the # of items available in the shop, from D8FC32).  And I changed a bit of the drops (so that at least one enemy drops Stardust Herb in each new area, after Gaia Navel).  I'll send you the IPS very soon (the list is below).  I don't know how to apply the Mint Flavored to the IPS, so I'll leave that part to you.

EDIT:  Okay, sent.  V1.3

This is up on RHDN now as 1.4 since a version 1.3 was already posted before. The "Mint" option works the same as in Turbo. Your blue is the default, but the "Mint" hack can be applied afterward to override it. https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4781/

I don't know about you, but I thought Gigas disammbling made them more difficult.  Specifically, against Fire Gigas.  When they disassemble, my magic misses, and with limited MP pool (and no Faerie Walnut), that can become a problem.

Yeah it's interesting how it changes his behavior. Personally it felt harder to me because if he's not disassembling, then he's spamming spells at you and you could die very quickly, but YMMV... to be honest I'm not sure whether or not I will apply either of those two hacks I just wrote in my own personal builds because the Gigas fights are hard enough already, but since I did the work to make them I figured I'd release it so others can play with it and see how they like it.

- Added Switch_Requires_R sub-feature to Equip_2nd_Weapon (Off by default)
- Equip_2nd_Weapon now works while blocking with Manual_Block

This is so awesome!
« Last Edit: January 01, 2020, 01:29:49 pm by kethinov »

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191230
« Reply #1103 on: December 31, 2019, 07:55:04 pm »
@kethinov

First of all, happy New Years.

Second, thank you for making the Luka pet patch.  It looks wonderful.  Holy crap it looks wonderful.  I know I was the one who made the suggestion, but I wasn't sure if such complicated thing was even possible.  So thank you.

Might I suggest another thing?  Again, I don't know if it's even possible, and I'm terribly sorry for being such a never-satisfied-guy, but here we go.  Up to the part where Shellblast replaces Water Thug looks great (after Jabberwocky boss), since Luka wisely upgrades her security.  However, after the Aegagropilon boss, can you keep the part where she gets locked up in the dungeon?  But after the Mech Rider 3 (and Pure Land opens up), she returns to the top (whether you save her or not), and in the jail, there would be both Turtlance AND Ice Thug?  Most of Ice Thug's spells work when he has an ally near him, and having two guards (with both spear and javelin) sound awesome.  Thank you.

As for Later Midge Mallet, I know you already made it so that it activates after the Metal Mentis boss, but could you make it so that it activates after Mech Rider 2?  I know you already said you'll get to that, but I'm just reminding you.  Sorry for the nitpick.

Thank you for the Stardust Herb update.  I took a look at the description page (https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/snes/patches/4781readme.txt), but the arrow doesn't seem to display right.  Maybe it's just my browser.

kethinov

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191230
« Reply #1104 on: December 31, 2019, 10:40:23 pm »
Might I suggest another thing?  Again, I don't know if it's even possible, and I'm terribly sorry for being such a never-satisfied-guy, but here we go.  Up to the part where Shellblast replaces Water Thug looks great (after Jabberwocky boss), since Luka wisely upgrades her security.  However, after the Aegagropilon boss, can you keep the part where she gets locked up in the dungeon?  But after the Mech Rider 3 (and Pure Land opens up), she returns to the top (whether you save her or not), and in the jail, there would be both Turtlance AND Ice Thug?  Most of Ice Thug's spells work when he has an ally near him, and having two guards (with both spear and javelin) sound awesome.  Thank you.

I think it's possible to tweak it to be that way but I don't quite buy the idea of her keeping pet monsters as security. The progression doesn't make a lot of sense to me. When the Water Palace is invaded, the palace is overrun with Water Thugs that are presumably hostile to Luka. Given that, I would presume her pet monsters would be hostile to her too, thus why she keeps them in a cage. It's like owning a tiger or something. You never quite let your guard down no matter how much you bond with it because ultimately it's a dangerous animal at its core. A monster is still a monster.

Or... maybe she eats them. I mean, just look at her face!



Those eyes! Those red eyes! And that sinister smile!

Yes, she's definitely eating them. And her flesh-eating desires only grow ever more exotic as the game progresses as the ebb and flow of water brings her news of the arrival of more and more tasty monsters from around the world. They don't guard her... they're her victims! ;)

I'm also not keen to restore the Luka-in-jail event. The original reason I made this hack was specifically to eliminate that event. The dialog is weird and nonsensical. There's no prize for freeing her, so there's no reason to ever bother with it. And after you free her, she just... stays in the jail cell every time you visit again until the story advances.

My first attempt at this hack tried to repair the broken jail event, but I couldn't find an elegant way to do it. I'm not a big fan of dummying out content, but this content was just too dumb to be saved, so I ditched it in favor of Luka having silly dangerous pets for no particular reason. Also I quite like how Luka's pets are similar to Spekkio from Chrono Trigger in that there is exactly one to fight and they grow more dangerous over time.

All that said, reasonable minds can disagree since it's entirely a matter of taste. If you're determined to make this happen, I can work with you on it, as I believe it could be done. But I'm not inclined to do a lot of work testing it or doing a formal release. Let me know if you want to take a stab at it and I'll get some notes together and show you how to get started tinkering with it.

As for Later Midge Mallet, I know you already made it so that it activates after the Metal Mentis boss, but could you make it so that it activates after Mech Rider 2?  I know you already said you'll get to that, but I'm just reminding you.  Sorry for the nitpick.

It's an easy change but not very easy for me to test because I don't have any good save files. I'll email you a version to test with. Can you test it for me to ensure that I hit the event targets correctly?

Thank you for the Stardust Herb update.  I took a look at the description page (https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/snes/patches/4781readme.txt), but the arrow doesn't seem to display right.  Maybe it's just my browser.

Yeah that's a browser issue. Should render okay when you pull up the text in most text editors.

January 01, 2020, 01:51:15 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Updated hacks:

Adjust Enemy Difficulty 2.1: Added support for high HP (new max 65535) and MP (new max 255) values. Thanks to Queue for providing additional code that makes this possible. Obviously no expectations that this hack bundle will be imported into Turbo since Queue provides his own implementation that takes into account existing values in the ROM rather than basing the calculations always on vanilla, but my implementation could still be useful to people as a way to hard reset values against an existing ROM or if you want to adjust stats Queue doesn't support, so I'm going to continue to maintain it as-needed. http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4435/

Harder Final Boss 1.4: Increased MP of the two bosses to 255. Also fixed Analyzer glitch. Thanks to Queue for providing additional code that makes this possible. http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4412/

Note, Harder Final Boss needs compatibility fixups for "Inferno Barrier" support, so I uploaded a separate version for that here: http://kethinov.com/images/linked/som/hardfinal/SecretofManaHarderFinalBoss1.4InfernoBarriersupport.zip

Later Midge Mallet 1.4: Slight change in code to prevent acquiring Midge Mallet during Empire Castle events. http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4382/
« Last Edit: January 01, 2020, 02:58:35 pm by kethinov »

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191230
« Reply #1105 on: January 01, 2020, 05:37:05 pm »
You're right.  Luka really has no business with that whole "being locked up in her own dungeon" thing (Sprite's grandpa had no problem after the empire invaded his palace, so why should she?).  You actually mentioned this before too, but I completely forgot about it.  My bad.  I take back what I said before.  However, I still have a problem with her saying, "Now use the sword to restore the seed's power" after the Aegagropilon boss (which makes even less sense than being locked up), instead of being the useful free restore/save point that she used to be.  I wanted to say to her, "Look lady, the seed is dead.  Now, can you please shut up and make yourself useful by being a free restore/save point?"  I really disliked how she loses the ability to restore/save in Water Palace (I know she gets that ability back after clearing Pure Land, but still).  If restoring her as a save point is difficult (while the dead seed animation/script is active), then I simply prefer her locked up in the dungeon.  Oh, and if both Turtlance and Ice Thug are present after Pure Land opens up (or after Pure Land gets cleared, if she's in the dungeon during the dead seed events), that would be super.

Yes, I'd like to work with you to make that into reality.

But yeah, big fish eat smaller fish.  That woman definitely eats sahagins and turtles (she's 200 yrs old for a reason).
« Last Edit: January 01, 2020, 05:50:46 pm by hmsong »

kethinov

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191118
« Reply #1106 on: January 01, 2020, 07:30:47 pm »
Changes:
- Implemented Quality_of_Life\No_Whip_Tile_Gather, makes whip posts less annoying
- Implemented Bug_Fixes\Flight_Waits_For_Events (should prevent the Mana Fortress barrier skip), this needs serious testing as it's in very fragile code related to flight (summoning Flammie) and cannon travel; if something goes wrong, you'll probably get stuck or the game will hang, buuuut, I think I got it working right
- Rewrote Bug_Fixes\Whip_Post_Fix, this may have finally solved all major whip post bugs and exploits I was aware of, though admittedly I haven't tested the trick where people use spell casting and the whip post to walk through walls, so maybe that can still happen

Something in these changes is causing lockups at whip posts. The scenario I tested was the whip posts on the Lofty Mountains.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2020, 07:52:11 pm by kethinov »

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191230
« Reply #1107 on: January 01, 2020, 08:53:25 pm »
Not at home, so can't do any digging, but was able to test Turbo on my phone and at least with default settings whip posts aren't breaking on me. So there must be a confounding factor. Maybe some mix of options in the patcher or an externally applied hack? Is anyone else having problems with whip posts?

kethinov

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191230
« Reply #1108 on: January 01, 2020, 10:21:01 pm »
Steps to reproduce:

1. Do a Turbo build with the .ini settings from this zip file: http://kethinov.com/images/linked/som/SoMTurbo.191230.whip.posts.bug.zip

2. Load the last (bottom) save file from the zip file.

3. Fly to Lofty Mountains.

4. Use the whip posts.

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191230
« Reply #1109 on: January 01, 2020, 10:40:25 pm »
Thank you, found the issue (to be clear, specifically because you provided the config and save). Whip_Post_Fix has an accidental dependency on Revisit_Goblin_Village. I'll get that resolved.

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191230
« Reply #1110 on: January 02, 2020, 02:45:16 am »
@Queue, @kethinov

Hey, I was thinking about moving the 1000 GP chest from Dark Palace to Gold Isle (in the empty lot).  So I did bunch of codes, using your patches as guidelines.

Code: [Select]
'Gold Isle Outside
@OFF $C82F40 ' [50: Dummied Out]
RAW C4 BC B6 EA '[3B: Potos Guard, Female Villager, Imperial Soldier, Chest]

@OFF $C8AB7F ' use the new palette
'RAW 3B
RAW 50

@OFF $C8ABA8 ' Old Man #2
'RAW 370E 8F 26 50 BB B5C0 '(Old Man #2)
RAW DE00 8A B1 40 EB 8E46 ' dark palace chest

@OFF $C8D348 ' Dark Palace
'RAW DE00 94 A4 40 EB 8EC6 ' dark palace chest
RAW AD01 14 24 40 3A 01C0 '(Fierce Head)

The chest moved just fine, but the color is not changing.  I know I got the right address, since the other NPCs' colors change just fine (learned this the hard way).  Any idea why?

PerryR

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 191230
« Reply #1111 on: January 02, 2020, 09:38:14 am »
Today I have some time to play :) ;)

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200102
« Reply #1112 on: January 02, 2020, 05:50:42 pm »
Version 2020-01-02:
https://ufile.io/pswg9duc

Changes:
- Added kethinov's Gigas Bosses Disassemble Less Often and Gigas Bosses Never Disassemble
- Fixed unintentional Whip_Post_Fix dependency on Revisit_Goblin_Village



hmsong, didn't have a chance to check out your question regarding the chest yet.

kethinov, to make compatibility fixups easier on me (namely where patching order doesn't matter), I rewrote Gigas Bosses Disassemble Less Often; if I understood the vanilla code correctly, it resulted in a 60% chance of disassembly (via consecutive 50% and 20% RNG checks) while you had it changed to 25% chance of disassembly (via a single 25% RNG check), so I did the minimal changes needed to modify the vanilla code to 25% chance (initial 50% RNG changed to 25% and the second one skipped, rest of vanilla code left as-is). Let me know if you're okay with the changes.

PerryR, :)

kethinov

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200102
« Reply #1113 on: January 02, 2020, 06:13:15 pm »
That was my original approach to the problem, but I couldn't get it to work for some reason. Coulda swore I tested the exact same code you wrote and it didn't work. In my tests, it would work only until he cast a spell, then after that it appeared to revert to the original logic. I became convinced something after the spellcasting code that I couldn't locate must've been doing a goto to C262E5, thus why I ended up writing that crazy branch up thing at that address.

But I just retested it again using your implementation and it does seem to work correctly. I must've been getting some bad RNG during my original tests that I mistook as a pattern rather than random chance.

Greensad

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200102
« Reply #1114 on: January 02, 2020, 09:03:36 pm »
Hey all, love what you're doing here, I'm a long time lurker, never played SoM but ever since I experimented with level design using SoM tilesets when I was little I've been a fan and looking through the changes I know I want my first playthrough to be using Turbo.

My question is, is there some kind of to do list or priority chart, or any kind of timetable? I ask for two reasons; I'm really interested in the inner workings of fan projects such as this and also I'm selfishly looking to withhold playing until this is 'done'.

Thanks so much again for your hard work!

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200102
« Reply #1115 on: January 03, 2020, 01:00:57 am »
@kethinov

Hot damn.  It seems you are able to change bosses' behaviors.  I took a look, but it was beyond my ability.  Nice work.

Do you think you can make Dark Lich (underground state) actually chase sideways too? (in addition to vanilla's vertical chase)  That would make that guy MUCH scarier.  Of course, it may enable Head Bang Glitch again, but I think many people would prefer seeing Dark Lich's sideway chase (and if they screw up the Head Bang, then PC'll die, since underground grip wave causes sleep).  Well, I do, at least.  I love scary, menacing bosses.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2020, 09:50:34 am by hmsong »

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200102
« Reply #1116 on: January 03, 2020, 02:39:07 pm »
Quote from: Greensad
My question is, is there some kind of to do list or priority chart, or any kind of timetable? I ask for two reasons; I'm really interested in the inner workings of fan projects such as this and also I'm selfishly looking to withhold playing until this is 'done'.
First off, I definitely understand. Not even just game modifications, there are a couple commercial games that I'm holding off playing more of until they release their final updates (which have been announced, so I know that a finished state is coming).

Unfortunately, this project has no such organization or planning. I do have a rough to do list (just a text file) that I occasionally write stuff in, or go back and check stuff off in, if I know it's something that I won't get to for a while, or that I might forget about otherwise, but things I think about regularly I don't write down. The to do list is as rambling and non-committal as that previous sentence. I started on this project roughly a year ago and only assumed it'd keep my interest for a few months; I intended burn out to dictate when it was "done" but somehow it became part of my daily routine to keep messing with it. I don't expect to go another year, but I have no reason to set a fixed cutoff date, so I either have to lose interest or run out of ideas (or like, something catastrophic has to happen).

That said, if you played it now, or you played it in 3 months, you may not even be able to spot the changes; the remaining "big" stuff from me that I know I want to do is only big in that it's a lot of work, but may not even be visible to eagle eyed veterans. Examples:
- fixing shadow layer interaction for a single tile in Pure Land
- minor art fixes on the world map
- art variation for another player weapon or two (like I did with flails)
- out of bounds map visual issues on remaining maps
- add some missing palette interaction for Functional Fashion (poison, stats screen, etc.)
- resolve saber buff palette interaction issues with status effects (engulf, dying, etc.)

Other authors may come up with something that makes waves, but that'd then be outside the control of this project (example: Mop's Ancient Cave project for Secret of Mana is amazing; it's a randomizer with various modes ranging from letting you keep the game world at its vanilla layout all the way to generating new rooms).

The only thing gameplay-wise that I have in mind is getting New Game Plus balance fixed up, and that's not even relevant for a first playthrough. On top of that, I've always kept any changes I've made compatible with vanilla saves, and made accommodations so that other peoples' work included in Turbo is as well (I'm looking at you "Item Limit Increase" -_-).

So truthfully, I'd encourage you to just go for it and play now; with what I currently have in mind, it wouldn't likely matter if you never snagged a newer version, and treating the current release (200102) as if it was the last shouldn't have you missing out on anything major. I'm also not aware of any bugs at the moment so now is also good for that reason.

hmsong

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200102
« Reply #1117 on: January 04, 2020, 08:24:24 am »
@Greensad

Yeah, most of the big stuff has been done for this project (in terms of gameplay).  It's fantastic.  This is overwhelmingly better than the new Secret of Mana 3D, according to numerous people.  You're missing out if you're holding back on playing this, due to it being "not finalized".  Queue does fantastic job in making the save files work with any versions.


@Queue

I know you already said you have no intention of making manual guard auto-disengage after # seconds, but would you be willing to make it unable to be activated while the stamina meter is not 100%?  Or make the guard be ineffective (eva = 0%) while the stamina is recharging?  That way, it would punish players if they disengage guard too early, since guarding right after disengaging won't do them any good -- and this would encourage/reward players if they have good timing with the guard.  I was playing against Dark Lich (hard mode), and man, all his physical attacks were joke with the manual guard (he seemed to use physical attacks more frequently than magic).  I'll take anything to make the manual guard a bit less OP.

Also, how are things going for the "spell-gets-interrupted-if-attacked" thing?  I know you said it's still on your to-do list, but you didn't list that on your to-do list, so maybe you forgot about that.  Sorry if I seem too nosy.

Btw, as kethinov said, the 2nd weapon switch (with R+X buttons) is awesome.  Really great.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2020, 08:35:49 am by hmsong »

lexluthermiester

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200102
« Reply #1118 on: January 04, 2020, 08:36:39 am »
and made accommodations so that other peoples' work included in Turbo is as well (I'm looking at you "Item Limit Increase" -_-).
We Thank You for that! It's become a staple that some, myself included, have a hard time playing without. Not that we can't, just have come to really like the fact they we don't have to hit shops as often..
« Last Edit: January 04, 2020, 06:58:03 pm by lexluthermiester »

Queue

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Re: Secret of Mana, Turbo - Beta 200102
« Reply #1119 on: January 04, 2020, 12:41:54 pm »
Quote
Sorry if I seem too nosy.
It's fine.

I still need to look into your Gold Isle chest, because what you posted looks like it should work as expected. I'm hoping I'll have a few minutes today for that.

I guess it's about time I take another stab at a Manual Block restriction. I've got a couple ideas in mind, I'll see what works and feels acceptable.

For interruptable spellcasting, I kept running into bugs when trying to keep it simple. Some of them were rather funny (screwed up animations) or just not acceptable (walking through walls after getting interrupted). Just need to spend more time working on it.

The to do list above was just a selection of examples, both of those things (worsen manual block & interruptable spellcasting) are on it. Other examples, directly copied from my to do list, of things that have already been checked off (either completed or abandoned) are like:
X figure out sword snow issue
0 longterm: maybe 8 direction arrow firing? (nah, sick of the bow)
X check weapon exp reset issue (rang, jav) (own goal)
X nullify B after finalizing quick cast

Actually, that shows the only abandoned idea in the whole list, so that's good I guess. I don't post the whole list so that I don't feel any pressure to get stuff on it checked off. And so that I don't have to explain any of it. And I guess so I can keep some things on it secret?

Anyway, I'm unfortunately (for this project) rather busy through at least Wednesday, so may not get anything done until after then. Hopefully will be back to my normal routine after that.