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Author Topic: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized Editions  (Read 64825 times)

Chicken Knife

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Re: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized Editions
« Reply #200 on: August 20, 2019, 06:36:21 pm »
Thanks for providing that. I get an odd enjoyment from reading direct translation comparisons.

Great job. There were just a couple lines that gave me pause:

"In that country, everyone is troubled greater by a monster of many heads known as Orochi." [When I first read this, I thought that perhaps you were going to give all the people of Jipang a similarly strange way of speaking, but that didn't turn out to be the case.]

"Brave X! You are one of incredible strength!" [While that's not incorrect, it'd read more naturally as "Brave X!" Your strength is incredible!"]

"I’ve heard about you. You’re those country bumpkins, aren’t you? Teehee" [Missing punctuation at the end of the "Teehee".]

"You should head south search in the center of four mountains. Meow!" [I assume there's a missing "and" in there.]

"It is also said that due to the king's orders, the hero Simon was banished through the travel door on the right." [In all other instances, you capitalized "travel door".]

One thing that really stood out to me was how surprisingly accurate the original English translation was, especially for an NES game of that era. They even managed to sneak a couple direct references to death past Nintendo of America's censors. I wonder if the translation accuracy had anything to do with how long it took for DQ3 to come out in the US, giving them plenty of time to get it right.

That said, your translation is still a definite improvement. I look forward to your work on DQ4, as I've been holding off on playing that one until a better translation comes out.
I really appreciate you reading this (and it sounds like you read a lot of it if not all of it.)

I agree with everything you pointed out as far as typos. I'll check with nejimakipiyo but I think we will agree with your suggested rephrasing of the incredible strength line as well.

I probably should have have said so more clearly but this wasn't the final draft. Here is what this was. nejimakipiyo (and Masafumi Sato when requested) provided a very straightforward literal translation. I took one pass through rephrasing all the lines in a way that I hoped would sound more natural and engaging. Nejimakipiyo then took one more pass through my revisions to make sure I didn't miss the nuance of the Japanese as well as provide some additional phrasing input.

After we finished, I did a quick sweep through only the first few pages because I was concerned that some of the ways we handled certain things evolved in the course of the writing. They did a bit, so I made some fixes. In the process of taking another sweep through the first few pages, I found errors that both of us missed and additional opportunities for better phrasings. Unfortunately I haven't done that second sweep through the entire document. So me making it viewable as it was was more of a "look at our progress!" kind of thing than "here's a perfect finished script". Hell, if I played DQ1 or DQ2 yet again now I would still probably find more phrasing or grammar that I think could be improved--so nothing is ever perfect. As far as this document, as I now work on inserting it into the game, I'm almost definitely going to make more improvements. Then when I play test the game, further improvements. So hopefully this will be at a high level of quality by the end.

As far as your surprise at how accurate the original translation was, I agree! I think I even said so above in this thread. They did a very good job with delivering a translation that was both accurate and natural sounding. When I first started these projects, my initial goal for the DQ1 and DQ2 script was to simply make it sound stylistically similar to DQ3 and DQ4. So that almost begs the question, "why all this effort?" Perhaps you noticed already but especially in some of the lengthier speeches or narrative text, there were some significant translation mistakes. Usually they would be quite sensible errors, like a Japanese expression translated in a straightforward way that really missed the meaning. There was definitely a tendency for the original translators to be overly literal at times. So while this translation adheres a little less to the actual Japanese sentence structure, I think we did catch a lot of the errors of what the original localization did and I don't think we committed hardly any of our own translation mistakes. As far as censorship, there wasn't as much of it as I expected compared to the first two games but there were certainly examples. The Assalam puff puff event is the most significant example, but there were numerous examples of prayers being altered or references to god or heaven being changed. "Powers above" as one of their replacements for "god" always made me chuckle.

Anyway, thank you again for the feedback. I'm happy to knock out those issues now lest they don't get noticed at later stages of the process.

*EDIT

All the issues you pointed out have been corrected.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 07:06:49 pm by Chicken Knife »

crudfish

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Re: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized Editions
« Reply #201 on: September 12, 2019, 12:23:40 pm »
Love this project! Thank you guys so much. I was half way through DQ2 and restarted it when I found out about this. I definitely appreciate the translation and original sprites. Looking forward to DQ3 and 4 next!

Quick question. For DQ1 have you considered a version that delocalizes the localization changes but keeps the improvements (like the Hero's sprite), as was done with DQ2s inclusion of the sacking of Moonbrooke?

Again, thank you guys so much has been a real treat. I made an account to say thanks. I would take these over the mobile port Switch version of the games recently announced in Japan any day.

Chicken Knife

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Re: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized Editions
« Reply #202 on: September 18, 2019, 04:38:14 pm »
@crudfish, thank you for all the kind words! Somehow I didn't get the notification for your post and it took me a week to see this.

You make a fair point about DQ1. I personally really like to see the progression of graphics from the original Famicom DQ1 to DQ2, especially since the Japanese graphics are much closer in style to the DQ2 graphics rather than the US remake graphics that were developed contemporaneously to the Japanese release of DQ4 and match up more to the latter with the big heads and the different walking style. That being said, we all have our individual preferences and yes, I think it would be nice to create a version of the patch that applies the new script but uses the improvements made to graphics for the US version (probably everything besides cross censorship). I think what I'll do is create an included optional patch that reverts the graphics back to the US version. That would make the update process easier should I do another round of additional refinements to the text. (almost guaranteed next time I do a play-through  :laugh:)
« Last Edit: October 01, 2019, 12:08:32 pm by Chicken Knife »

Thirteen 1355

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Re: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized Editions
« Reply #203 on: September 19, 2019, 06:21:30 am »
This seems like a project worth following. When I found out the Switch ports of the first three games are of the atrocious PS4 version (looks worse than the 2D Final Fantasy Steam renditions), I felt frustrated.

This seems like a better alternative, although I would really like to see the SNES versions getting some love someday.
Helicoptering about till I find some ROM hacking treasure.

Chicken Knife

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Re: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized Editions
« Reply #204 on: September 19, 2019, 07:48:14 am »
@Thirteen 1355

Agreed on wanting to see better versions of the SNES DQ releases (and beyond). I hope to eventually get to them but it's a long way off right now. As I've said before, nejimakipiyo's and I's talents and personal motivations are distributed more on the translating / writing side. With a ton of help from abw, I've fumbled through the required steps for extraction and insertion so far but it's a slow and painful process for me. I tend to need exactly the right circumstances--being in the house by myself mid-day and with zero distractions for example (not so easy as a busy 9-5 working dad). In contrast, we have the ability to deliver a good chunk of writing work every single day. So the moral of the story is: we are open to partnership and that would really speed up the process, but in the meantime we are trudging along. PS, great work on your Dawn of Sorrow hack. That was a much needed project.  :beer:
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 07:57:08 am by Chicken Knife »

KiloRH

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Main Character Movement
« Reply #205 on: November 23, 2019, 11:21:56 am »
I started the hack of Dragon Quest 1 and I'm really enjoying it so far. However, there's something that confuses me about this hack. NPCs only being able to face forward has been fully restored, yet the hero still faces four directions like in the NES version, instead of having to choose a direction in the menu. I can understand doing this to make talking to NPCs more convenient, but for the sake of sticking to the goal of this hack and truly retaining the Famicom version's early PC RPG-style archaic charm, why not have an optional patch that re-adds the original movement for those who want it? The only thing really taking me out of this is that missing feature, and I think it would be the perfect way to address a conflict between authenticity and quality of life. That's just my suggestion, though.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2019, 11:29:24 am by KiloRH »

Chicken Knife

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Re: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized Editions
« Reply #206 on: November 25, 2019, 04:50:10 pm »
@KiloRH

I do think it would be pretty cool to have a patch for the Famicom hero who slides around, even if it feels kind of weird to play that way. The problem is you'd need the code to recreate that North/South/East/West prompt when you select the talk command that's in the Japanese version. Otherwise it would be unclear who you are talking to since you can't see which way you are facing. I could probably give you a patch for the forward facing hero without the direction prompts but programming in those direction prompts is well beyond my capability.

KiloRH

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Re: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized Editions
« Reply #207 on: February 16, 2020, 08:28:12 am »
Sorry about this late revisit but I have another suggestion. According to the wiki, Erdrick's Japanese name is spelt "Loto", not Roto, which I also personally think sounds more English knight hero-y and thus what they were going for. Also a side note, there're a ton of missing commas, including three in a row right at the start.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2020, 09:59:02 am by KiloRH »

CoolCatBomberMan

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Re: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized Editions
« Reply #208 on: February 16, 2020, 07:49:56 pm »
Sorry about this late revisit but I have another suggestion. According to the wiki, Erdrick's Japanese name is spelt "Loto", not Roto, which I also personally think sounds more English knight hero-y and thus what they were going for. Also a side note, there're a ton of missing commas, including three in a row right at the start.

Which wiki? The one on Wikia is generally less reliable than the other wiki. "Loto" comes from the GBC remakes, which were prone to translation mistakes (e.g. translating Ra as Lar). "Roto" has been the go-to translation in Japanese media, a prime example being the Emblem of Roto manga.

laserlambert

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Re: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized Editions
« Reply #209 on: February 16, 2020, 08:33:13 pm »
Sorry about this late revisit but I have another suggestion. According to the wiki, Erdrick's Japanese name is spelt "Loto", not Roto, which I also personally think sounds more English knight hero-y and thus what they were going for. Also a side note, there're a ton of missing commas, including three in a row right at the start.
If there is any doubt just look at this picture of Roto's shield---https://dragon-quest.org/images/9/9e/DQII_Erdricks_Shield.png
clearly along the top it says ROTO in what approximates the roman alphabet letters, and it can be seen to say that in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate as well!---https://www.ssbwiki.com/images/thumb/0/07/Hero_SSBU.png/1200px-Hero_SSBU.png
« Last Edit: February 16, 2020, 08:47:12 pm by laserlambert »

Chicken Knife

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Re: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized Editions
« Reply #210 on: February 16, 2020, 10:17:10 pm »
Thank you laserlambert & CoolCatBomberMan for answering the Roto/Loto question with exactly the reasoning I used.

@KiloRH

I just took a read through the opening lines of DQ1 and I'm not registering a "ton of missing commas" as you say. Here's a transcript from the insert script of the opening lines:

‘[HERO], descendant of the hero Roto. I have awaited your arrival!’[wait][line]
‘Long ago, it is said that Roto sealed away a great devil with God's blessing, the Orb of Light[.’][wait][line]
‘The Dragon King has stolen that precious orb and has hidden it away in darkness[.’][wait][line]
‘[HERO], we call upon you now to restore peace to Alefgard[.’][wait][line]
‘You must defeat the Dragon King and retrieve the Orb of Light from his hand[.’][wait][line]
‘Please take the gifts in these chests for they will aid you on your quest[.’][wait][line]
‘Also speak with the guards for their knowledge can help you[.’][wait][line]
‘May we meet again, brave [HERO][.’][end]

I'm not seeing the missing commas you are referring to. Please be specific about where you think they are missing. Anyone else is free to chime in as well.

AdamDravian

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Re: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized Editions
« Reply #211 on: February 17, 2020, 01:47:10 am »
‘Please take the gifts in these chests for they will aid you on your quest[.’][wait][line]
‘Also speak with the guards for their knowledge can help you[.’][wait][line]
‘May we meet again, brave [HERO][.’][end]

I'm not seeing the missing commas you are referring to. Please be specific about where you think they are missing. Anyone else is free to chime in as well.

"Please take the gifts in these chests, for they will aid you on your quest." This sentence is comprised of two independent clauses (each could stand alone as a complete sentence) which are joined by the conjunction "for", and should technically have a comma.

"Also, speak with the guards, for their knowledge can help you." In this sentence, "Also" is an introductory clause and should technically be offset with a comma. "Speak with the guards" and "their knowledge can help you" are, again, two independent clauses that are joined together with the conjunction "for".

These are the kind of comma errors that are unlikely to stand out to anyone except professional writers/editors/English teachers. I'm a writer myself, but I personally wouldn't bat an eye at this kind of thing in a video game, as it's fairly frequent.

This website might help explain the comma rules I'm referring to: https://writingcenter.unc.edu/tips-and-tools/commas/
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KiloRH

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Re: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized Editions
« Reply #212 on: February 17, 2020, 10:31:05 am »
I wasn't at all aware of Roto being official, I think I've just heard "Loto" used as a name in some other medieval fantasy media then. This is also the wiki I was referring to: https://dragonquest.fandom.com/wiki/Erdrick

"Please take the gifts in these chests, for they will aid you on your quest." This sentence is comprised of two independent clauses (each could stand alone as a complete sentence) which are joined by the conjunction "for", and should technically have a comma.

"Also, speak with the guards, for their knowledge can help you." In this sentence, "Also" is an introductory clause and should technically be offset with a comma. "Speak with the guards" and "their knowledge can help you" are, again, two independent clauses that are joined together with the conjunction "for".

These are the kind of comma errors that are unlikely to stand out to anyone except professional writers/editors/English teachers. I'm a writer myself, but I personally wouldn't bat an eye at this kind of thing in a video game, as it's fairly frequent.

Those are the kinds of missing commas I was talking about. Guess I'm a professional English teacher if they immediately stood out to me that much. Sorry to bother you, then.

Chicken Knife

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Re: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized Editions
« Reply #213 on: February 17, 2020, 03:30:39 pm »
@AdamDravian,
@KiloRH,

I really appreciate both of you pointing out this issue. AdamDravian has made a compelling case, and the link was helpful. (See what I did there? haha) Regardless of whether these comma errors are likely to register with the general public, I want the writing to be as good as it can possibly be. There is no good reason video game writing should be held to a lower standard than other literary works, or that fan translations should be held to a lower standard yet. Whether or not the contemporary public agrees, these games are historically significant works of art, and their translations should be treated with utmost care.

Therefore, you all can expect thorough updates after I take a pass through all the DQ1 and DQ2 text to root out the missing commas. I'll probably make a number of other revisions while I'm at it. But I will attempt to balance that effort that with my lengthy process of becoming competent in 6502 assembly.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2020, 04:00:41 pm by Chicken Knife »

AdamDravian

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Re: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized Editions
« Reply #214 on: February 17, 2020, 04:15:24 pm »
Those are the kinds of missing commas I was talking about. Guess I'm a professional English teacher if they immediately stood out to me that much. Sorry to bother you, then.

Heh. I was exaggerating a bit when I said that kind of comma error is unlikely to be noticed by non-English teachers/writers/editors. I suppose I was trying to "soften" the criticism so as not to sound too harsh. I try to be careful not to sound overly critical to fan projects like this, as I know what it's like to pour countless hours into a fan project, and criticisms can be discouraging.
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Chicken Knife

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Re: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized Editions
« Reply #215 on: February 17, 2020, 06:34:20 pm »
Some project leaders definitely need the gentle touch. I've certainly been guilty of not delivering feedback like that more often than once. As for me though, give it to me straight. It's the result I care about. It takes a village to raise a child, and it takes a community to make a hack project great.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2020, 10:57:29 pm by Chicken Knife »

abw

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Re: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized Editions
« Reply #216 on: February 17, 2020, 11:13:25 pm »
Though it often displeases me, the rules of English grammar are nothing if not flexible, particularly when considered across long periods of time, and it can sometimes be quite easy to find counter-examples to those so-called rules in the famous works of published authors. If you know what you're doing, arguing alternate interpretations of the text can also give you some wiggle room. Other than pointing out that "Also" is an adverb, not a clause, I'm not advocating for or against changing any of this punctuation. Do whatever you think is best!

Shade Aurion

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Re: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized Editions
« Reply #217 on: February 18, 2020, 01:37:32 am »
Nice work dude. Really looking forward to the completion on 4 especially as aside from the DS version, the NES version is the only one available and thus the only version that can be added to a SNES Classic. Man, you really did set yourself up for a massive workload XD I hope it all goes well