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Author Topic: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized  (Read 79244 times)

Chicken Knife

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Re: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized Editions
« Reply #220 on: April 21, 2020, 01:27:35 am »
Thanks Adam! I tend to work in infrequent but very aggressive bursts. I put about 14 more hours into hacking DQ1 today. I finally figured out how the arrangement of sprite tiles and the assignment of palettes work, so I was able to accomplish something I've desperately wanted since the beginning of this project: incorporating all the Famicom NPC sprites and palettes without compromise. No more grey mage or blue maiden. No more guards without spears or warriors without swords. I couldn't resist fixing a couple obvious flaws in those Famicom graphics, such as the guard never moving his right leg.

I also prepared two variant addendum patches: one for NA graphics besides title screen; the other for NA graphics with original Japanese palettes. Even if you prefer the NA style graphics, you have to admit it's kind of stupid to see the maiden go from blue to red or the wizard go from grey to blue when you boot up DQ2.

I should have this patch submitted within 1-2 weeks, only pending nejimakipiyo's review of the grammar and writing edits. Very excited to move on to the next DQ games.

incrediblehark

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Re: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized Editions
« Reply #221 on: April 26, 2020, 11:22:49 pm »
Just wanted to say I appreciate all of the hard work you and others have put into this project. Being a fan of the DQ series since the early 90s when i played the NES original as a kid, I look forward to playing through these again with what is shaping up to be the definitive English versions. I still enjoy a good grind, even though my friends thought I was crazy these games are a ton of fun to play.

While I'm happy that Square Enix is releasing the games more frequently here and hopefully opening up the series to new players, I really don't like the localizations with the alliteration, heavy accents (DQ4 in particular) and the renamed spells that sound more childish and silly.

Anyway keep up the good work, I can't wait to see the project completed!

CoolCatBomberMan

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Re: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized Editions
« Reply #222 on: April 27, 2020, 06:58:33 pm »
Just wanted to say I appreciate all of the hard work you and others have put into this project. Being a fan of the DQ series since the early 90s when i played the NES original as a kid, I look forward to playing through these again with what is shaping up to be the definitive English versions. I still enjoy a good grind, even though my friends thought I was crazy these games are a ton of fun to play.

While I'm happy that Square Enix is releasing the games more frequently here and hopefully opening up the series to new players, I really don't like the localizations with the alliteration, heavy accents (DQ4 in particular) and the renamed spells that sound more childish and silly.

Anyway keep up the good work, I can't wait to see the project completed!

Part of the reason why DQ is so popular in Japan, though, is its writing. Even in the first game, there's a sort of "vibrancy" in NPC dialogue not seen in other RPGs at the time. However, the Japanese language is one of subtlety, unlike English, so modern localizations have no real choice but to ham it up a bit.

Chicken Knife

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Re: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized Editions
« Reply #223 on: April 27, 2020, 09:12:54 pm »
@incrediblehark

It's always great to be reminded that this work matters to people. I'm also really excited to have the first Delocalized game shaping up to be in a complete and finished state in the next couple days. The sequel was actually much closer to being totally finished already, but I'll still be doing another round of revision in coming weeks.

@CoolCatBomberMan

I can't help but disagree with your point that the contemporary localizations come anywhere near matching the subtle vibrancy of the Japanese scripts. nejimakipiyo may jump in with their feelings about this, since they are the primary translator, after all.

I can speak for our other translation partner, Masafumi, since he doesn't follow these forums. Masafumi spent the first half of his life in Japan and the second half in the US. He's played Dragon Quest games since the first one was released in Japan. To this day, he still plays them primarily in Japanese and is very attuned to the nuances of the text. His opinion of the contemporary English localizations is that they are excessively silly and make many elements of the native games feel like a joke, when they should be capturing the reverent, epic, and often solemn tones in Horii's writing. When I've shared the names of the spells and abilities from our contemporary versions, I've repeatedly seen him get quite angry about what the English speaking markets have done to Horii's work. Trust me when I say that Masafumi rarely gets angry about anything.
 
This is not to say that Japanese Dragon Quest is a totally serious affair. Of course, there is a ton of humor. From my experience being involved in the translation conversations mostly between nejimakipiyo and Masafumi, nearly every standard NPC in the Japanese text comes across as varied and dynamic as a real person. This might be my very favorite thing about the series. There is a balance in the atmosphere that the contemporary localizations tend to miss. For all the censorship, translation errors, and needless alterations of the NES Dragon Warriors, those translations actually did a far better job finding the right balance in tone.

For those who won't take our translation team's word for it, the ever-popular Legends of Localization page put out an article that should reinforce a lot of what I'm saying. https://legendsoflocalization.com/lets-talk-aboot-those-dragon-quest-iv-accents/

As far as vibrancy, if anyone feels that it is lacking in our writing, I would be the one to blame. I take the lead on polishing the raw translation into something that strives to sound natural and appropriate for these wonderful characters. If they don't come across as vibrant, that means I've failed. But if you think that speeling evryzing lyke zis is the key to vibrancy... let's just agree to disagree. If anyone has any constructive feedback, I'll always welcome it. I believe that only good things will come from that.

Phew. I had a lot to say. But I do always enjoy a good discussion. Thanks again, everyone.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 02:46:14 pm by Chicken Knife »

CoolCatBomberMan

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Re: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized Editions
« Reply #224 on: April 28, 2020, 12:53:13 am »
And once again, it turns out I don't know shit. Time to start over with a new account. Again.  :banghead:

Chicken Knife

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Re: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized Editions
« Reply #225 on: April 28, 2020, 07:25:53 am »
@CoolCatBomberMan

Hey... Take it easy. There's no need to delete any accounts. Go take a look a few posts back. You'll see that I got called out for thinking my comma usage was on point, when some of it was, in fact, quite wrong. We all have learning opportunities from time to time. It's a positive thing. That's why we have discussions.

And there's also the fact that you are not alone in having believed that the contemporary localizations are more accurate. They are newer, they are very well-written, there is a ton of creativity that went into them, and they are full of puns--something the Japanese DQ series is known for (just not nearly so many). I think it's pretty natural for people to trust that they are more accurate as well.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 09:59:27 am by Chicken Knife »

nejimakipiyo

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Re: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized Editions
« Reply #226 on: April 30, 2020, 12:45:07 pm »
Hey everyone! I don't talk much here but I wanted to announce the most recent version of Dragon Quest 1 Delocalized Edition!
https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4275/?fbclid=IwAR3AHMupXvHVw5nZ5c0-S8lu9uAjceOQ-u3PVAVeoefr2QcOBCWLQNa_u5s

This update contains a lot of improvements over our original script, as well as improvements to the graphics.
Feedback is appreciated as always!
I am being the real demon king, you fools!

stratoform

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Re: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized Editions
« Reply #227 on: May 03, 2020, 10:10:32 pm »
It's somewhat funny for me having played the DQ1 several times over now (before the Delocalized Edition). Now I want to replay it again, Famicom+ style!

The readme (1.08) I actually thoroughly enjoyed. It's detailed in a scholarly way. I can predict I'm going to enjoy my revisit to the series.

Chicken Knife

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Re: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized Editions
« Reply #228 on: May 06, 2020, 08:54:51 am »
@stratoform,

Thank you for the kind words. I hope you enjoy playing through these versions as much as you enjoyed the readme. I actually took another look at the readme and, being who I am, just submitted a revision and expansion of it. I particularly felt that the spell renamings needed more explanation.

**General Update

My recent work with code logging / graphics editing has been getting some great results. Previously, I couldn't implement the coffins into DQ3 and DQ4 because of mirroring issues, and I could only restore the priests in a compromised manner because of mirroring / reductions in allotted tile space. Now, based on code logging and many hours of experimenting and documenting, I've fully integrated original coffins into DQ3 and DQ4 along with priests without any compromises to their animation frames.

Next steps are continued revision of DQ2 script along with work on uncensoring backgrounds in DQ3 and DQ4 (basically adding a bunch of cut crosses)

When I finish this work, the focus will become DQ3. One way or another, I'll definitely be publishing DQ3: Delocalized later this year, and that will include all the new updates. I'd prefer one significant release with all the updates than posting all the incremental changes individually. I will, however, probably update the link for DQ4 at the same time with all the new graphic restorations since DQ4 Delocalized retranslation is a long way off.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2020, 01:19:52 pm by Chicken Knife »

Pennywise

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Re: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized Editions
« Reply #229 on: May 06, 2020, 02:44:35 pm »
I'm sure this has probably been discussed already, but it seems to me that your hacks would be more appropriate for the translation section of the site. Since you're basically retranslating/rewriting based on the original Japanese text and restoring censored graphics etc from the Japanese version.

It is more common for translations to convert a Japanese ROM into a translated version, but other translations have used the US ROM for their translations as well. IIRC, Breath of Fire 2 comes to mind.

Just thought I'd point that out. Anyhow, it looks like you guys are producing definitive editions of these games, which I think is really cool. Now if only that could happen with DQ V-VI...

Chicken Knife

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Re: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized Editions
« Reply #230 on: May 06, 2020, 03:09:50 pm »
@Pennywise,

Actually, no one has thus far brought up the hack vs translation point, but I think it's a good one to consider. I was following suit with other hack projects like Final Fantasy Restored, which offered a new script along with bugfixes and uncensored graphics. But perhaps the distinction could be that many of these patches tend to be rewrites and not complete retranslations like this one? I know hairy_hen recently published a complete retranslation of Final Fantasy VI under the hacks category. But if Ryusui released his magnificent BOF2 project under translations, there is certainly precedent to your point. With all the years you've been releasing work in this community, your opinion is certainly a weighty one, and I'll strongly consider making the switch. Thank you!

As far as DQ V and VI, I'd love to get there! I'm personally inclined to prioritize those over the Super Famicom remakes of I-III. DQ V is definitely on my agenda. We would probably use the dejap version as a base and then go through the translation line by line against the Japanese, making improvements as warranted. The state of VI is more worrisome considering all the bugs in our present English version. I'm hoping that my hacking skills will be exponentially greater by the time we get there.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2020, 07:42:55 pm by Chicken Knife »

Pennywise

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Re: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized Editions
« Reply #231 on: May 06, 2020, 03:46:51 pm »
Quote
But perhaps the distinction could be that many of these patches tend to be rewrites and not complete retranslations like this one?

That's basically what I forgot to say. I would consider hairy_hen's translation a translation as well.

You might want to try getting ahold of byuu since he hacked the game years back and released a complete translation of DQV. The only problem I recall is that it's quite literal, which most normal people agree doesn't make for a good and/or pleasing translation.

Chicken Knife

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Re: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized Editions
« Reply #232 on: May 06, 2020, 05:22:16 pm »
That's basically what I forgot to say. I would consider hairy_hen's translation a translation as well.

You might want to try getting ahold of byuu since he hacked the game years back and released a complete translation of DQV. The only problem I recall is that it's quite literal, which most normal people agree doesn't make for a good and/or pleasing translation.

That's a good suggestion as far as Byuu's translation. I've played a portion of it, and it is certainly literal to the point of being a frustrating read. It could be a helpful reference, but I'm certain our team would want to make sure we are also looking at the Japanese for each line. I can't speak for Byuu specifically, but it's so incredibly common for subtle nuances or obscure expressions to get mangled in the translation process, regardless of the intentions of the translator. At the same time, he might have caught some things that we would otherwise miss, so the reference point is very helpful. This has essentially been our process. Take each Japanese line, look at multiple other English renderings of the line, then craft something new, striving for the right balance of sound and accuracy.

The dejap translation is what I've spent the most time with. It's very clear that there was some excessive embellishment, and I can certainly live without the Dragon Warrior conventions. The grammar and overall polish of the writing could be tightened up as well. But what it did have going was a nice and natural flow, and I think it captured the tone fairly well.

There's even the PS2 translation we could look at. Does the world really need a 4th fan translation of DQ5? Probably not, but nejimakipiyo and I are obsessive perfectionists who adore the DQ series and really enjoy the process of translating it. For those reasons alone, a 4th translation will probably end up happening, more or less from scratch as far as the text.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2020, 05:54:18 pm by Chicken Knife »

CoolCatBomberMan

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Re: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized Editions
« Reply #233 on: May 07, 2020, 12:19:15 pm »
Does the world really need a 4th fan translation of DQ5? Probably not,

Did the world need a 5th translation of DQ1? Probably not, but you did it anyway. Just sayin'.

Chicken Knife

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Re: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized Editions
« Reply #234 on: May 07, 2020, 12:51:04 pm »
Quote
Did the world need a 5th translation of DQ1? Probably not, but you did it anyway. Just sayin'.

Maybe so, but it wasn't the world that I set out to make these for. Certainly not for the DQ fan community, who are typically quite loyal to their newer versions with contemporary graphics, added conveniences, and "vibrant" dialogue.

If there's ever a time when games like these are commonly viewed as vital and historic works of art, and not just objects of nostalgia or entertainment, perhaps that's the world that needed a 5th translation of Dragon Quest 1.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2020, 01:18:32 pm by Chicken Knife »

CoolCatBomberMan

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Re: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized Editions
« Reply #235 on: May 07, 2020, 02:02:40 pm »
Maybe so, but it wasn't the world that I set out to make these for. Certainly not for the DQ fan community, who are typically quite loyal to their newer versions with contemporary graphics, added conveniences, and "vibrant" dialogue.

If there's ever a time when games like these are commonly viewed as vital and historic works of art, and not just objects of nostalgia or entertainment, perhaps that's the world that needed a 5th translation of Dragon Quest 1.

I was saying that as a response to your concerns about translating DQ5. Just because it's been done before, both officially and otherwise, does not mean you should forego the game entirely.

Chicken Knife

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Re: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized Editions
« Reply #236 on: May 07, 2020, 02:11:23 pm »
I can't disagree with that.  :beer:

MaruMaru

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Re: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized Editions
« Reply #237 on: May 07, 2020, 02:14:05 pm »
Good work so far! Good luck with DQ3!

stratoform

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Re: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized Editions
« Reply #238 on: May 07, 2020, 04:54:12 pm »
Another DQ5 translation is good+! The world may choose its own "curated" version for each game in the series, but when you like something enough.. you'll pick out your own or create your own favorite flavor.

IMO, it'll come out better from the seasoned experts who have "infinitely deconstructed" the universe over and learned its nuances, than from a rah-rah cheerleader. But I hold no harm against the modern splash, flaunty re-imaginings; they have their own place.


How many times has Pac-Man been redone, ported, cloned, painted, restyled and copied? For some like me, it actually doesn't get that old that quickly. Even DQ1-3 (NES, SNES, GBC, Modern) since there's something oddly unique.

Chicken Knife

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Re: Dragon Quest I - IV: Delocalized
« Reply #239 on: June 04, 2020, 11:19:15 am »
I wanted to offer an update on what I've been working on. My revision process for DQ2 is well underway. I'm approaching the midway point in the game, and my text improvements so far have been extensive. I'd say that 2/3 of the lines have been subject to some form of revision. I've also been going back to the Japanese quite regularly, and have discovered some really neat elements that we missed previously.

One of the areas of text that we spent insufficient time developing in the past was with the lottery / Tombola minigame. This required a fair amount of research to get to the bottom of. Even though it looks like a slot machine in the game, it's actually a Japanese game of chance called Fukubiki. It involves a wooden chamber that spins like a wheel, with marbles falling out into a dish. Depending on which marbles pop out, you win or you lose. It turns out that Tombola, the contemporary translation choice, is a totally different game that closely resembles bingo. We ended up going with the translation of "Lottery Wheel", as that is the standard English rendering of Fukubiki. Once we understood the concept, we were able to do a much better job tailoring the language to fit the scenario.

We've found some other cool new things too. There's an old man on the island of Zahan that we previously just had commenting about all the women in town and the men being out fishing. This time, we caught how incredibly excited he is about the prospect of being alone with all these women. The perverted old man theme runs strong in Japanese Dragon Quest. :laugh:

So, let's just say that good things are in store for DQ2 Delocalized. It will be some weeks before a release of this update, since after I finish my revision, nejimakipiyo is going to do their own scrub, just like we did before publishing the latest DQ1 update.


« Last Edit: June 04, 2020, 12:06:57 pm by Chicken Knife »