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Author Topic: Help With Super Robot Taisen Gaiden: Masou Kishin - The Lord of Elemental  (Read 1686 times)

lantern48

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Ok, I've been patching translations and hacks for years with little to no problems.
Can't get this one to work properly. The first patch caused constant freezes on Snes9x.
The current patch released yesterday I can't get any dialogue to display in the dialogue boxes (the opening screen text works, though).

So, as said I'm not new at this.
I've matched CRC's, tried No-Intro, GoodSnes and other random roms.
Anyone who has done this successfully and is using the current Snes9x 64bit version, can you describe what you did to get it to work?

Thank you.

mziab

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Gideon actually discovered a compatibility problem with the 1.01 patch and has just updated the download on his website. Please make sure you're using the most recent patch. The one here on RHDN doesn't contain that hotfix yet.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2018, 10:43:11 am by mziab »

lantern48

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Gideon has actually discovered a compatibility problem with the 1.01 patch and just updated the download on his website. Please make sure you're using the most recent patch. The one here on RHDN doesn't contain that hotfix yet.
The only patch available on the Aeon Genesis' site is the 1.01.
There's also no mention of any compatibility issue with the 1.01 patch.

Where are you getting that from?

Special

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He updated the patch to 1.01, then again stealthily updated it (also named 1.01) because of bsnes or some-such.

Anyway the game is incredibly buggy, I doubt it's been play tested at all. I've hard patched a ROM using both 1.0, mziab custom patch, and now 1.01 (both versions) to a No-Intro ROM, and using SNES9x as my emulator, and I still get constant emulator hardlocks and graphical glitches on menus/dialog at seemingly randomly points, so either it's the patch, SNES9x, or the game, but I just don't care enough to troubleshoot which it is since the games not all that fun in the first place.

So just letting you know that I too have been patching translations and hacks for years with no problem, but this one has been a pain, so you're not alone.

EDIT: Okay for shits and giggles I just tried a clean "Super Robot Taisen Gaiden - Masou Kishin - The Lord of Elemental (Japan)"
ROM and that locks up Snes9x sometimes too, so it's the emulator, and not the game or patch. So Snes9x isn't a good emulator to use with this game I guess.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2018, 11:12:07 am by Special »

lantern48

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He updated the patch to 1.01, then again stealthily updated it (also named 1.01) because of bsnes or some-such.

Anyway the game is incredibly buggy, I doubt it's been play tested at all. I've hard patched a ROM using both 1.0, mziab custom patch, and now 1.01 (both versions) to a No-Intro ROM, and using SNES9x as my emulator, and I still get constant emulator hardlocks and graphical glitches on menus/dialog at seemingly randomly points, so either it's the patch, SNES9x, or the game, but I just don't care enough to troubleshoot which it is since the games not all that fun in the first place.

So just letting you know that I too have been patching translations and hacks for years with no problem, but this one has been a pain, so you're not alone.

EDIT: Okay for shits and giggles I just tried a clean "Super Robot Taisen Gaiden - Masou Kishin - The Lord of Elemental (Japan)"
ROM and that locks up Snes9x sometimes too, so it's the emulator, and not the game or patch. So Snes9x isn't a good emulator to use with this game I guess.
So it's Snes9X.
Good stuff figuring that out.

Hopefully whoever still works on Snes9x will find a way to make it more compatible.

Anyway, thanks again.

Gideon Zhi

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Anyway the game is incredibly buggy, I doubt it's been play tested at all. I've hard patched a ROM using both 1.0, mziab custom patch, and now 1.01 (both versions) to a No-Intro ROM, and using SNES9x as my emulator, and I still get constant emulator hardlocks and graphical glitches on menus/dialog at seemingly randomly points, so either it's the patch, SNES9x, or the game, but I just don't care enough to troubleshoot which it is since the games not all that fun in the first place.

Not sure which version of 9X you're using, but my testers ran through the game on 1.41-1/1.43 with minimal problems. They did experience intermittent soft-locks during one animation sequence but I was unable to replicate the issue on bsnes or on snes9x 1.54, and am assuming that they're due to timing issues with the emulator.

We've been testing and fixing issues for a solid four months, and went through five different increasingly-stable iterations of the patch before v1.00; I take extreme offense at the assertion that it hasn't been playtested. Maybe try a little harder to actually pinpoint the issue before blindly flinging assertions around?
« Last Edit: May 30, 2018, 01:13:40 pm by Gideon Zhi »

Special

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Why would you playtest using v1.41-1.43, do you know how old those are? If it was play tested with anything recent ie v1.55 which is almost a year old now or 1.56 which is comming out soon, you'd notice you can't even get past the intro. but sure playtest with 5+ year old builds...

Anyway I made an issue report, go hard. https://github.com/snes9xgit/snes9x/issues/316

EDIT: ROFL. just checked, Snes9x 1.41 came out on 12-8-2003.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2018, 01:33:16 pm by Special »

Gideon Zhi

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Why would you playtest using v1.41-1.43, do you know how old those are? If it was play tested with anything recent ie v1.55 which is almost a year old now or 1.56 which is comming out soon, you'd notice you can't even get past the intro. but sure playtest with 5+ year old builds...

Because that's what my dev tools are built on top of, and savestate incompatibilities with future versions make testing difficult. Yes, there have been improvements. No, they're generally not super significant in the grand scheme of Making Sure It Just Works. Yes, I also test with bsnes's accuracy core.

But sure, immediately jump to conclusions and blame me for your use of a broken emulator.

Special

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Sorry I offended, I know a lot of time goes into these, but I never said it wasn't an emulator problem.

But my statement still stands about play testing, 1.41 are so irrelevant at this point. If your releasing something in 2018 you test with 2018 emulators.

mziab

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Since it's an SA-1 game that isn't anything as mainstream as Super Mario RPG or Dragon Ball Z: Hyper Dimension, it doesn't really surprise me there might be some emulation bugs or regressions that no one has encountered or fixed. Since the issue is intermittent, it's probably due to inaccurately emulated timing or perhaps something to do with the memory map, but that's just an educated guess. Either way, not related to the translation itself, as we've established here.

Snes9x 1.43 is indeed ancient, but a lot of people still use it, just like ZSNES, for various reasons (nostalgia being the main one, I guess?). Some old hacks with bad behavior (writes out of vblank etc.) only work on older versions, so there's also that.

Lastly, bsnes-plus is an actively developed emulator and is known to be more accurate than Snes9x. Ordinarily, testing in bsnes/higan should be enough to catch all actual bugs in the code. This is not one of them.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2018, 02:01:33 pm by mziab »

lantern48

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So I saw the Snes9X Git crew closed the issue claiming it was fixed in the newest build.
I DL'd the new SNES9x Git and it does display dialogue in the boxes now, but it still freezes at random times. It's noticeably freezing much sooner now than on older builds.

Sounds like you guys are saying it works fine on BSNES Plus. I'll grab that and give it a go.

Gideon Zhi

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But my statement still stands about play testing, 1.41 are so irrelevant at this point. If your releasing something in 2018 you test with 2018 emulators.

Generally, the sorts of changes made to a game during the process of producing a translation patch are not the kind that would be affected by emulator accuracy. If a hacker is writing timing-critical code or using poorly-documented architecture features, they're doing it wrong. Accuracy at the emulator level generally only really plays a significant role if the emulator is *so* inaccurate that it's ignoring basic hardware restrictions (see: ZSNES allowing writes to video memory outside of vblank) or if the hacker is completely overhauling the game with new visual features (see: Breath of Fire 2.) The former is easily testable via bsnes (which, again, I stress I use) and I never approach the latter.

I've been doing this for an incredibly long time, and to the best of my memory the last time I released a patch that flat-out didn't work on actual hardware was back in 2000. Please don't tell me how to do my job. Besides, if I *had* told people to use the latest 9X and they experienced the prologue crashes you're experiencing, we'd have gotten significantly less testing done.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2018, 03:35:58 pm by Gideon Zhi »

lantern48

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Generally, the sorts of changes made to a game during the process of producing a translation patch are not the kind that would be affected by emulator accuracy. If a hacker is writing timing-critical code or using poorly-documented architecture features, they're doing it wrong. Accuracy at the emulator level generally only really plays a significant role if the emulator is *so* inaccurate that it's ignoring basic hardware restrictions (see: ZSNES allowing writes to video memory outside of vblank) or if the hacker is completely overhauling the game with new visual features (see: Breath of Fire 2.) The former is easily testable via bsnes (which, again, I stress I use) and I never approach the latter.

I've been doing this for an incredibly long time to the best of my memory the last time I released a patch that flat-out didn't work on actual hardware was back in 2000. Please don't tell me how to do my job. Besides, if I *had* told people to use the latest 9X and they experienced the prologue crashes you're experiencing, we'd have gotten significantly less testing done.
I'm just grateful to you and the rest of the team for all the hard work and for sharing this with the rest of us. It's not your fault 9X won't play this properly.

So thank you.

BearOso

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I think we've got the issue with Snes9x fixed. It seemed to be some kind of interaction between our Speedy Gonzales fix and the Visual Studio optimizer. :huh:

Please don't pass blame around about whose "fault" this is. I'm sorry the bug tracker was closed preemptively, but we're not ignoring you or being vindictive. Just let us know politely that it indeed is not fixed and to open the bug up again. (which you should do if it still isn't fixed after all this)

lantern48

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I think we've got the issue with Snes9x fixed. It seemed to be some kind of interaction between our Speedy Gonzales fix and the Visual Studio optimizer. :huh:

Please don't pass blame around about whose "fault" this is. I'm sorry the bug tracker was closed preemptively, but we're not ignoring you or being vindictive. Just let us know politely that it indeed is not fixed and to open the bug up again. (which you should do if it still isn't fixed after all this)
The random freezes are fixed too or do you mean just the 100% freeze near the beginning that no longer happens?

Anywho, I never learned how to compile the builds, so I'll have to wait until it shows up on EmuCR tomorrow to try it out.
Hopefully it's fixed, but even if it isn't, thank you guys for just giving a shit enough to even try to get it working.


-EDIT-

Ok, got the newest build and have played around 45-minutes so far with no freezes.
Whatever you bastard geniuses did, seems to have fixed it!

Thank you.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2018, 11:42:00 am by lantern48 »