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Author Topic: Dragon Quest: General Japanese Questions (3DS)  (Read 989 times)

Zizka

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Dragon Quest: General Japanese Questions (3DS)
« on: May 21, 2018, 07:58:50 pm »
Hello guys,

I have a few questions (this is mostly to further my understanding of Japanese):

妹をマヤを失って
To lose my sister.
I choose the infinite here because of the ーて form. Am I right?

オレは逃げるように旅に出た。
In order to escape, I left to travel.
Why is オレwritten in katakana here?

全部 オレのせいだったんだ。
It was all my fault.

I don’t understand how to translate this one. 全部 I understand, it’s the rest I don’t get.
I don’t understand the オレのせいだったたんだ to be precise. The んin particular is confusing to me. Could someone explain this to me please?
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 08:27:33 pm by Zizka »

730

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Re: Dragon Quest XI: General Japanese Questions (3DS)
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2018, 11:23:52 pm »
Quote
妹をマヤを失って
To lose my sister.
I choose the infinite here because of the ーて form. Am I right?
Pretty sure this is misspelled, are you sure it's not something like 「妹をマヤに失って」or 「妹のマヤを失って」? By itself it wouldn't really mean much though, it should be part of another sentence.
Quote
オレは逃げるように旅に出た。
In order to escape, I left to travel.
Why is オレwritten in katakana here?
There's... no particular reason, it just is. Sometimes they write them in kanji, sometimes in katakana, sometimes in hiragana. Depends on the character.
Quote
全部 オレのせいだったんだ。
It was all my fault.

I don’t understand how to translate this one. 全部 I understand, it’s the rest I don’t get.
I don’t understand the オレのせいだったたんだ to be precise. The んin particular is confusing to me. Could someone explain this to me please?
You got it right though, what's wrong? What do you mean by precise?
You got what this means オレ の せい, right? だった is just past だ. ~んだ is the same as ~のだ. It's hard to explain exactly what that means though, it's just filler, to add emphasis to the phrase.
Have you read http://www.guidetojapanese.org ? I recommend you skim it all then start actually reading texts, then use it as reference for things you don't understand later.
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Zizka

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Re: Dragon Quest XI: General Japanese Questions (3DS)
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2018, 07:36:11 am »
Hello 720!

Yes, I've read most of that website. I've also bought the book. Thank you for your answers though!

More questions:
しかし 今は 剣を作るための 素材か道具が 足りないようだ。
However right now you lack the necessary material to make the sword.

Question 1:
剣を作るため
What is the purpose of ため here? Or is it ための? I couldn't find anything on ための so I'm thinking ため is 為 is ''make''? I'm not sure however as 作る is make too so I don't understand the purpose of ため(の)here.

Second question:
素材道具

Are か and が here a construction of some kind? Or is it that が is the usual particle but then what is the purpose of か there?

There's also the possibility that both か and が here play a different particle role than I'm used to.

Third question:
足りないよう

What is the purpose of the よう there? I don't think it's an inflection of 足りない. I think the だ there is just the past of です. It's this よう that's confusing me.

Aeana

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Re: Dragon Quest XI: General Japanese Questions (3DS)
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2018, 10:30:23 am »
Question 1:
剣を作るため
What is the purpose of ため here? Or is it ための? I couldn't find anything on ための so I'm thinking ため is 為 is ''make''? I'm not sure however as 作る is make too so I don't understand the purpose of ため(の)here.

ための is 'for the benefit of' when talking about a noun. xためのnoun: noun is for the benefit of x. In this case, 'material [for the benefit of] making a sword.' ために is the same construction, but when using a verb.

Quote
Second question:
素材道具

Are か and が here a construction of some kind? Or is it that が is the usual particle but then what is the purpose of か there?

There's also the possibility that both か and が here play a different particle role than I'm used to.

In this case, か works as 'or.' 素材か道具 - 'material or item/tool'

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Third question:
足りないよう

What is the purpose of the よう there? I don't think it's an inflection of 足りない. I think the だ there is just the past of です. It's this よう that's confusing me.

よう here means "it looks like" or "it seems that."

Zizka

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Re: Dragon Quest XI: General Japanese Questions (3DS)
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2018, 11:05:15 am »
Quote
In this case, か works as 'or.' 素材か道具 - 'material or item/tool'
I'm checking in my book about particles:

Is this what you are referring to?

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よう here means "it looks like" or "it seems that."
Ah ok so this よう is really this one: 様. Why is it that it's sometimes written as a kanji and sometimes in hiragana? Is it because it's not the most important in this sentence? Because it's secondary to the understanding of the sentence, it's written in hiragana?

Aeana

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Re: Dragon Quest XI: General Japanese Questions (3DS)
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2018, 02:15:51 pm »
I'm checking in my book about particles:

Is this what you are referring to?

Yeah.

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Ah ok so this よう is really this one: 様. Why is it that it's sometimes written as a kanji and sometimes in hiragana? Is it because it's not the most important in this sentence? Because it's secondary to the understanding of the sentence, it's written in hiragana?

It is 様, but almost nobody writes that way. Many auxiliary verbs and particles have a kanji form, but most Japanese style guides these days say to write them in kana. Similarly, going back to the above example of ための, that could be written as 為の but it's not common. It comes off as showy to write them in kanji.

730

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Re: Dragon Quest XI: General Japanese Questions (3DS)
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2018, 04:02:40 pm »
Adding one more thing:
Quote
I think the だ there is just the past of です.
だ and です are two completely different things, that sometimes have similar functions, don't confuse them. The past of です is でした.
よう is 様 in kanji, but so is さま. It's just written in kana because it's the most common. Just because something has a kanji doesn't mean it has to be written with it, and sometimes the kanji is almost never used.
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Zizka

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Re: Dragon Quest XI: General Japanese Questions (3DS)
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2018, 04:25:53 pm »
Thanks! I confused だ and でした it seems. I thought だ was the past of the non-polite form of です。

I have another question:

覚えていますか?
Have you forgotten?

Ok, just to be clear. 覚えて is the conjugated form of the ichidan verb 覚える。
jisho.org gives me the following about the verb:


From what I understand, the present progressive is the English equivalent of an ongoing action. Does this mean that my translation should be:

Are you forgetting?
It sounds weird because I always pictured "forget" as a verb which is usually non-progressive (you either forget or you don't).

Am I missing something here? This is why I'm asking the question because the present progressive doesn't seem to provide an accurate translation.

あの日 ふたりで見た
The other day I saw two people.

二人 seems to never be written in kanji from what I've seen in the game so far.

ロトゼタシアの美しさい景色を。
A beautiful view of [proper noun here].

I can't seem to translate this one. I couldn't find anything about を used at the end of a sentence.

吸い込まれそうなほど 真っ青な空 。
Something about breathing and a deep blue sky.

Is 吸い込まれ the passive here? If so, why is the る missing. In takomoto (dictionary) it's written with a る at the end.

I don't understand the そう there. I looked it up in my dictionary but there were too many entries.

I'm thinking なほど is a particle compound but I couldn't find it. So it's just ほど then.


I just don't understand how it works with 吸い込まれそう here. Where's the approximation here?

夕焼けに染まった 茜色の海。
Everything was tainted by the sunset, the water is (was?) red.

生命のかがやきに満ちた 大樹の葉。
I don't understand this. I know there's the brightness of life: 生命のかがやき. To be full of the brightness of life? It's sound like a terrible translation. There' the leaf of the large tree there was well. Maybe that's what was filled with the brightness of life?

あなたと共に見た そのすべてが
今も 私の心に 焼き付いています。


You saw together with me and now it has also left a strong impression on me.

Doesn't sound right either.

何度読んでも すばらしい文章だ。
キミには せび この手紙の都合続きを
探してほしいんだ。


How many times have I read such a beautiful sentence.

I want you to find the circumstances in that letter.









« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 04:45:54 pm by Zizka »

730

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Re: Dragon Quest XI: General Japanese Questions (3DS)
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2018, 11:42:18 pm »
I'm going to reply to these questions but I think I have to let you know that, first, I'm pretty sure you're misspelling some things here, I thought you were copying directly from a script in the game files but I guess not; second, I feel this text is way above your level right now, you should start with easier things, and seriously consider reviewing grammar (or relearning it). Also, you shouldn't stop at every little thing you don't understand as that will make things too inconvenient, if you just read a lot of easy stuff and keep climbing from there you'll get a feel for things you don't understand (of course, do look up stuff but I'm saying if you stop at every single doubt you have you'll be going too slowly). Another thing I notice is you seem to be relying too much on understanding Japanese concepts through English, as in trying to directly translate them. For the most part, you should create a blank slate in your mind to learn Japanese in, trying to understand the concepts themselves as if you were a native instead of correlating everything with some English equivalent.

覚えていますか?

覚える means to remember (well, it does mean some other things sometimes, like to feel an emotion, but you don't need to worry about that now). The ~ている form doesn't necessarily always mean that something is happening right now, it can also mean that something is in a certain state. You've surely seen 「知っている」 somewhere, which is just an inflection of 知る but 知っている is used way more often than the base verb, since it means something like "being in a state of knowing". Likewise, 覚えている means "remember". This is probably tricky to understand since in English you use the same word to mean "remembering something constantly, the fact that something is stored in your mind" and is also used to mean "something just floated up to my mind, I recalled something". 覚えている means the first, for the second one you use 思い出す. Also just in cased you missed it, 覚えている becomes 覚えています because it's the polite (keigo) form.Basically, the simple answer to how that translation should be is "Do you remember?".

あの日 ふたりで見た

Is this something that comes before the next sentence you posted? Because it's hard to explain like this, and it looks like it'd fit right in with the next thing.They didn't see two people; it says ふたり, this means that this action was done through or by the means of ふたり. So this is referring to either the speaker plus another person, or two other unrelated people having seen something together. ふたりで is a very common construction though, so you might as well think of it as its own word.

ロトゼタシアの美しさい景色を。

Assuming that you made a misspelling there and it's actually 美しい, it means "[did some action at/to] the beautiful scenery of Rotozetasia(?)". In Japanese you can change the order of things in almost any way you want, so say the previous phrase was actually connected to this one, you'd end up with 「あの日ふたりで見たロトゼタシアの美しい景色を。」("The beautiful scenery of Rotozetasia we saw together that day"). You can swap things around and you end up with 「あの日ロトゼタシアの美しい景色をふたりで見た」("That day we saw the beautiful scenery of Rotozetasia together"). It's the same sentence but with the order changed, to give emphasis to the ロトゼタシアの美しい景色 and/or to sound more poetic.

吸い込まれそうなほど 真っ青な空 。
This is probably just a continuation of the above, as well as the following few sentences.~そう is an inflection that means that something "looks like" that action; here this would mean something like "as if swallowed up/looks like it's swallowed up".ほど when attached to verbs in this way means that the thing following is "at the level of" or "like that action could happen", for a lack of a better explanation.This is all applied to 真っ青, which is then in turn applied to 空, so you'd end up with something like "A sky so blue it could swallow you up".

夕焼けに染まった 茜色の海。

This is all just embellishing an adjective+noun again. 「夕焼けに染まった」, "painted/tainted in/with the light of the sunset"; 「茜色の海」, "red (I mean I haven't even read that color before so you can make it a fancier word than just 'red' probably) sea/ocean". So obviously you put these 2 together and you get a "red sea painted with the light of the sunset".

生命のかがやきに満ちた 大樹の葉。

Same again, just a bunch of adjectives and stuff.You get the first, 「生命のかがやき」, "the shine/brightness/spark/whatever of life", which has 「~に満ちた」 with it. 満ちる means to be filled (like a glass filled with water), so both together mean "filled with the brightness of life".Then you have the other thing, 「大樹の葉」, the leaves of the great tree, so yeah, when you add in the whole previous block you get "The leaves of the great tree filled with the brightness of life".

あなたと共に見た そのすべてが
今も 私の心に 焼き付いています。


First you got あなたと共に見た, "saw together with you", coupled with そのすべて, so you end up with "all those things I saw with you". Then が says that all that stuff does something.今も would be something like "even now".私の心に焼き付いています is in a pretty standard order so you should understand it, something like "burned into my heart". So all this together you'd get something like "All those things I saw with you still burn/are etched in my heart"

何度読んでも すばらしい文章だ。
キミには せび この手紙の都合続きを
探してほしいんだ。


That 都合続き seems pretty odd, like the 都合 would be another word or just shouldn't be there in the first place. Also, the せび is definitely ぜひ. Assuming that the 都合 isn't there and that ぜひ is corrected you get something like "No matter how many times I read it, it's a wonderful text/poem. I want you to look for the rest of this letter."

By the way this is a pretty good site for searching specific pieces of grammar, but I don't think you should use it to study grammar per se, but to get a better understanding of things you've already seen and aren't understanding very well, or to review things you already know.








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Zizka

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Re: Dragon Quest XI: General Japanese Questions (3DS)
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2018, 07:58:28 am »
Wow, thanks so much for all the help.

Quote
'm pretty sure you're misspelling some things here, I thought you were copying directly from a script in the game files but I guess not
I might have misspelled here and there. I'll provide screenshot next time for comparison.

Quote
I feel this text is way above your level right now, you should start with easier things, and seriously consider reviewing grammar (or relearning it).

I beat the game yesterday. I actually can understand thanks to vocabulary words written in kanji. I learned a ton of vocabulary that way. I'll try to find something easier to understand next though.

Quote
Also, you shouldn't stop at every little thing you don't understand as that will make things too inconvenient, if you just read a lot of easy stuff and keep climbing from there you'll get a feel for things you don't understand (of course, do look up stuff but I'm saying if you stop at every single doubt you have you'll be going too slowly).

Well, as long as it learn something, it's all good in my book. 為の/ための 様/よ う things were great to learn. I also learned it thanks to you guys. If I had skipped over it, I wouldn't have learned it. Now I don't know how often those come up but it's good to have learned them regardless.

Quote
Another thing I notice is you seem to be relying too much on understanding Japanese concepts through English, as in trying to directly translate them. For the most part, you should create a blank slate in your mind to learn Japanese in, trying to understand the concepts themselves as if you were a native instead of correlating everything with some English equivalent.

That's almost unavoidable. I'm a language teacher by trade (not Japanese!) and people can't help but rely on the languages they know in order to make sense of second/third languages. It's an automatic habit. Don't get me wrong, it's not a good habit as it creates interference which in turn leads to misunderstandings but from what I understand, it's just the way the brain is trying to cope with foreign languages (at first anyway). You're making me aware that I'm doing this too much however and will need to watch out for transferring to English all the time.

This time around, I'll focus more on the -ている construction instead of spreading all over the place.

I'm using the following link to draw my conclusions here:
http://www.imabi.net/teiru.htm

When used with the particle て, いる functions as a supplementary verb. In Japanese a supplementary verb is a verb that loses some or all of its literal connotations to serve (a) specific grammatical purpose(s). Although it retains some resemblance to its basic meaning of indicating state, ~ている should be treated separately from いる.

So in this case we're not dealing with 覚える but rather 覚えいる.

So this is a case of supplementary verb. I am then provided with a few possible meanings of the ーている construction:

Quote
   The first usage of ~ている equates to "-ing." You're doing something, thus it is a continuation in the present time. This is also linked to ongoing action, which is typically expressed with verbs of process--食べる、飲む、走る.

This one refers to the English present progressive. I'm uncertain if that's the definition I'm going for here.

Quote
   When used with verbs like 着る (to wear), it shows a state of being dressed. This is in contrast to putting clothing on, which has to be expressed differently to avoid ambiguity as 着ている最中さいちゅう. Other verbs are just like this. 

I think this one is the one you are referring to. From what I understand, the "state of being" refers to something being in a certain way at the moment. In other words, "Do you remember?" with a subtext of "right now".

Why not just write: 覚えます? Wouldn't that have the same meaning as 覚えいる.

Aeana

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Re: Dragon Quest XI: General Japanese Questions (3DS)
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2018, 10:28:21 am »
覚える and 覚えている are absolutely different. You can think of 覚える as memorization. Like 日本語を覚える is learning (committing to memory) Japanese. 日本語を覚えている is remembering Japanese. As in, you learned it, but you still remember it. As alluded to by 730, it's basically being in the state of remembering it.

Zizka

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Re: Dragon Quest XI: General Japanese Questions (3DS)
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2018, 10:30:37 am »
Ah ok so: 覚える would be the gerund infinitive equivalent (corrected for mistake). That's how it would distinguish itself from 覚えている if I understand correctly. 覚える isn't inflected, right?
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 02:05:08 pm by Zizka »

730

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Re: Dragon Quest XI: General Japanese Questions (3DS)
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2018, 01:45:41 pm »
覚える is an infinitive. 覚えている is the ~ている form of 覚える (just a conjugation/inflection/tense). 
 
Some examples: 
 
今日は100字の漢字(uhh I think this is how you'd count them anyways)を覚えた。 
Today I learned/committed to memory 100 kanji. 

100字の漢字を覚えています。 
I remember/know 100 kanji.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 01:54:14 pm by 730 »
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Zizka

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Re: Dragon Quest XI: General Japanese Questions (3DS)
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2018, 02:30:33 pm »
Thank you, that's really well explained. I think I understand.

On another forum I asked this question:
Quote
Why not just write: 覚えます? Wouldn't that have the same meaning as 覚えている?

I got the following reply:
Quote
Because that means (will) (you) remember? not (do) (you) remember?

So I basically didn't understand his/her conclusion that the future was implied by 覚えます。

From what I understand 覚えます is the polite form of 覚える. In my dictionary (takoboto), if I check the conjugation for 覚える, I get this:
覚える, 覚えます
oboeru, oboemasu
[does], will [do]

Also, in Tae Kim's guide he mentions:
Quote
Of course, the reason I introduced the verb stem is to learn how to conjugated verbs into their polite form... the
masu-form! The masu-form must always come at the end of a complete sentence and never inside a modifying subordinate clause. When we learn compound sentences, we will see that each sub-sentence of the compound sentence can end in masu-form as well.
I mean, there's no mention that the ーます suffix implies the verb is in the future.

Since there are no adverbial clauses in this example, how do you know 覚えます implies the future as opposed to does+remember?

Unless 覚える and 覚えます are both lined up with [does] and [will do] on purpose in the dictionary? This would signify that 覚えます would imply a future here? Is that it?

730

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Re: Dragon Quest XI: General Japanese Questions (3DS)
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2018, 02:35:29 pm »
It has nothing to do with implying the future, they just put that in parentheses to say that it could mean future. Present tense in japanese can be either present or future depending on context. ます only makes things polite, the grammatical meaning is the same as the base verb (覚える).
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Zizka

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Re: Dragon Quest XI: General Japanese Questions (3DS)
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2018, 03:05:31 pm »
Ok, that's what I thought, good.

Here's another one (Dragon Quest VIII):


My transcription:
ヤンガス:「こんなところで油を売ってると
すぐに日が暮れちまうでげす。」

My understanding of it:

こんなところで:by the way
油: あぶら:oil.
売ってる:inflected for of: 売る。Jisho tells me that:
Quote
売ってる could be an inflection of 売る, with these forms:
Te-iru-form. It indicates an action that is ongoing.

Now, if I check the conjugation of 売る, I see this:


Now I'm thinking this is the ーている form of the verb but... there's a い missing. I'm guessing this is a colloquial thing, maybe to give an accent/style to the character by omitting the い。

こんなところで油を売ってる
The と here is likely a particle. It's not following a noun so it's maybe the opinion of the speaker Yangus here.

すぐ:
に here is also likely a particle which plays an adverbial role. So immediately...

:
The day is the subject of the sentence because of が.

暮れ:nightfall
ちまう:to do something completely
 
で:particle
げす:to understand

So all in all:
"By the way, the day is quickly growing dark I think." The oil part I have trouble translating. I mean, I'm guessing it's something along the lines of:

"We'd better hurry up if we want to sell the oil because the sun is about to set." I'm probably not far off but I'd like to know how to deal with the "selling oil" part better.



Aeana

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Re: Dragon Quest XI: General Japanese Questions (3DS)
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2018, 05:07:02 pm »
The い in 〜ている is often dropped in casual speech. You are correct that it is the 〜ている form.

What you're looking at here is an idiomatic phrase. 「油を売る」 basically means to loaf around or waste time. As for と here, it's a conditional showing what will happen if something else happens. i.e. Conditionとresult. What Yangus is saying is essentially, "it's gonna get dark if we loaf around here much longer." 

730

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Re: Dragon Quest XI: General Japanese Questions (3DS)
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2018, 05:15:49 pm »
nice I didn't know about 油を売る. also ちまう is the same as しまう, implying the action you're doing is bad and/or accidental or something. and でげす is just that guy's sentence ending speech pattern thing, surprised you haven't seen it more if he appears frequently, at least I remember him from dq8 which I played a bit where he was your friend and party member, and he always ends sentences with でげす (or something else with げす in it). 
Also, こんなところで means "a place like this", you mistook it for ところで which goes at the beginning of a sentence, this is completely different since it has a こんな at the beginning so ところ just means place.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 05:22:03 pm by 730 »
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Zizka

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Re: Dragon Quest XI: General Japanese Questions (3DS)
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2018, 08:21:12 pm »
Nice to learn about that idiom indeed.

Quote
also ちまう is the same as しまう, implying the action you're doing is bad and/or accidental or something.
Ah ok.

Here's another one:

My transcription (it's missing the small ツ but that's because I don't know how to type it).

はやいとこ 町にきましょうや!
アッシは パーツと
飲みあかしたい気分でがすよ。

Quote
アッシは パーツと
I don't understand this one, guessing it's colloquial again.

はやいとこ
This is the ひらがな of 早い, an i-adjective. I couldn't recognize the とこ. Looking it up in the dictionary provided too many results to be helpful. So I thought it might be a particle compound. I looked it up in two different books about particles and I couldn't find it there. So it's not that either. Then again, とこ is probably a noun since it's preceded by an adjective. If it was confusing, they would've used the kanji instead of using the kana.

町にきましょうや
This is likely 来る。So "Let's go to the village/Quickly, let's go to the village!"

飲みあかしたい気分でがすよ。
あかしたい is probably 明かす, to spend the night inflected to express a wish or a desire.

So I'd say:

"Quickly, let's go to the village, I feel like spending the night drinking."

Feeling pretty proud of myself on this one!

May 26, 2018, 12:42:08 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
In the following excerpt:
悪いけど こっちも商売なんだ。
あんたの 当たらない占いなんか
いっぱいの酒代にも なりゃしないよ。

Could you explain the part in bold? I can't figure it out.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2018, 12:42:08 pm by Zizka »

Zizka

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Sentence Translation Help
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2018, 11:25:37 am »
Hello again!

I would like to know if my translation is accurate please.

Script:
"あなたの 撮影の腕前見たいので
私を写真に 撮ってもらうますか?"
"I want to see your pictures. Can you take some pictures for me?"

Is that accurate?

Thank you!