News:

11 March 2016 - Forum Rules

Main Menu

Sonic 5 - Improvement Vol.2 (Nes)

Started by sics, May 14, 2018, 12:26:09 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

tygerbug

The new possible ending looks very good.

The Master System ending features Sonic singing at a microphone, which is left over from the deleted subplot of the Sonic the Hedgehog Band, who would have featured in the Genesis version.

https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Sonic_the_Hedgehog_Band

SMB64

Quote from: sics on January 06, 2023, 07:05:06 PMHappy Epiphany day, we are getting closer and closer to the release of the new version of Sonic Vol.2 and I am sure that when you play it you will get more than one surprise! :beer:


Not to be rude, but exactly how much longer 'till release? I'm sorry, but I just could not contain myself when I saw that "Closer to release" post.

sics

tygerbug
I don't know what to say, some time ago you had commented something similar, but in another context, on the other hand, I'm glad you like it.
Quote from: tygerbug on October 27, 2020, 08:21:12 PMThis is from the deleted storyline in the Genesis MD version, which had Sonic rescuing his friends in the Sonic the Hedgehog band, and singing at the end. The Master System/Game Gear version reflects that in its ending somewhat.

SMB64
The truth is that we have spent too much time on this update, so at least I would like to make a video talking about our work before releasing the game.

But what most people don't take into account is that every change made to the project translates into long days of testing, in addition to my own tasks in the team, preparing material for our project networks and the insistence of specific people who contact me for hours to talk about this hack.

And although it deviated from the answer, I take this opportunity to say that I am not going to suddenly become friends with anyone, especially if part of the conversation is that they want a demo, on the other hand, the place for suggestions is here, and about that, even if you feel in your heart that your idea is revolutionary, use common sense so you don't have to hear the same thing for the umpteenth time.

I apologize for the outburst, but really, although I try to be courteous, this is already getting strange, there are people who end up telling me about their personal life, their hobbies or even memes.

Linktree  | Better a small finished project than a thousand giant ideas stuck in your system.

SuperStarFox

Quote from: sics on January 16, 2023, 11:08:48 AMSorry, but those features are no longer supported in the current version of the hack, we've tweaked Sonic's animation sequences, and there's now a lot more main character reference material that we should tweak to add.



On the other hand, although I can't confirm it yet, the ideal would be to create a separate set of animations for Super Sonic and add other cut scenes for the end of the game.


Note 1: This idea would only be possible, with the implementation of an 8x8 color distribution, so I reiterate, it is not confirmed.
Note 2: Being a model, it is possible that the final result will vary.

For example, the image of South Island is obviously a placeholder, so the final result will probably be something more like this:

(I am not involved in this task, so my illustration is only demonstrative)

In any case, we are a small team, so we are practically forced to prioritize tasks that ensure a tangible improvement in the game, leaving cosmetic changes as the last priority ;)

By the way, if you like PacManfan64's designs, and you don't want me to kill myself for showing them ahead of time, don't forget to support him on his Deviantart.  It is also worth mentioning woring, which has presented the update of its Talui Adventure 4.0 project. :beer:

Changing the subject, you may wonder why I haven't uploaded the update of this hack yet, actually, there were just a lot of new ideas that we didn't want to leave out of the new version, just to name a few:

+ Spikes Badnik (Spring Yard) now can be killed from side attack (similar to MD).
+ When starting spindash, sets state 'rolling' - now Sonic kills badniks (similar to MD).
+ Increased timer for inviciblity and speed shoes (similar to MD).
+ Extra lives count up to 99 (Drawn max 9)
+ Revision of the code of the oxygen dispensers (Labyrinth).
+ Improvements in the limit of objects.

+ It is now possible to skip the ring count at the end of the level.
+ Restored non-working original Time Bonus code:
< 1:00 = 5000 pts.
< 1:30 = 4000 pts.
< 2:00 = 3000 pts.
< 2:30 = 2000 pts.
> 2:30 = 0    pts.


+ After Blue Spheres values for bonus score now defined (Rings bonus = blue spheres rings,  time bonus = 9900 if 'perfect').

+ New Music: Sonic Origins (unused)
+ TIME OVER music same as GAME OVER.

+ New SFX: Eggman (Star Light, Final Zone, Bad Ending)
+ New SFX: Bat Brain.
+ New SFX: Spike trigger.
+ New SFX: Waterfall (Labyrinth)

+ SFX: Ring lost (Updated)

Finally, here's a sneak preview of what's keeping me busy, it's still just a dream, but as I mentioned we are very interested in redesigning the SMS style special stages.

Open in a new tab to see in real size
All this looks and sounds promising! I'd love to try the update out.

Jungledrew2005

Are you still planning on including Scrap Brain? (just wondering)

UltraEpicLeader100


ChromiusMixin

Quote from: sics on January 16, 2023, 11:08:48 AMSorry, but those features are no longer supported in the current version of the hack, we've tweaked Sonic's animation sequences, and there's now a lot more main character reference material that we should tweak to add.



On the other hand, although I can't confirm it yet, the ideal would be to create a separate set of animations for Super Sonic and add other cut scenes for the end of the game.


Note 1: This idea would only be possible, with the implementation of an 8x8 color distribution, so I reiterate, it is not confirmed.
Note 2: Being a model, it is possible that the final result will vary.

For example, the image of South Island is obviously a placeholder, so the final result will probably be something more like this:

(I am not involved in this task, so my illustration is only demonstrative)

In any case, we are a small team, so we are practically forced to prioritize tasks that ensure a tangible improvement in the game, leaving cosmetic changes as the last priority ;)

By the way, if you like PacManfan64's designs, and you don't want me to kill myself for showing them ahead of time, don't forget to support him on his Deviantart.  It is also worth mentioning woring, which has presented the update of its Talui Adventure 4.0 project. :beer:

Changing the subject, you may wonder why I haven't uploaded the update of this hack yet, actually, there were just a lot of new ideas that we didn't want to leave out of the new version, just to name a few:

+ Spikes Badnik (Spring Yard) now can be killed from side attack (similar to MD).
+ When starting spindash, sets state 'rolling' - now Sonic kills badniks (similar to MD).
+ Increased timer for inviciblity and speed shoes (similar to MD).
+ Extra lives count up to 99 (Drawn max 9)
+ Revision of the code of the oxygen dispensers (Labyrinth).
+ Improvements in the limit of objects.

+ It is now possible to skip the ring count at the end of the level.
+ Restored non-working original Time Bonus code:
< 1:00 = 5000 pts.
< 1:30 = 4000 pts.
< 2:00 = 3000 pts.
< 2:30 = 2000 pts.
> 2:30 = 0    pts.


+ After Blue Spheres values for bonus score now defined (Rings bonus = blue spheres rings,  time bonus = 9900 if 'perfect').

+ New Music: Sonic Origins (unused)
+ TIME OVER music same as GAME OVER.

+ New SFX: Eggman (Star Light, Final Zone, Bad Ending)
+ New SFX: Bat Brain.
+ New SFX: Spike trigger.
+ New SFX: Waterfall (Labyrinth)

+ SFX: Ring lost (Updated)

Finally, here's a sneak preview of what's keeping me busy, it's still just a dream, but as I mentioned we are very interested in redesigning the SMS style special stages.

Open in a new tab to see in real size

This really is just what happens when actual passionate Sonic fans want to see Sonic on NES, damn!
Fingers crossed that Super Sonic can at least get his movement, ducking, balancing and crouching sprites, I'd be satisfied with him being animated only to the extent of the original Mega Drive games.

Only small quips I have are the lack of the 10,000 and 50,000 point time bonuses for getting really fast times and being able to speed up on flat surfaces while rolling, otherwise this is the work of a saint I'm seeing here!

I replied to another forum post regarding Sonic NES and level design, but if I was shown the ropes on how to use whatever level editing software you guys are using, I'd be glad to try and replicate the original level designs, as part of the main hack or a separate patch. Going on as a Sonic fan since childhood and being able to remember trying to do Sonic 2 with all emeralds back then, this really does just blow my mind.

sics

You are probably wondering why the hack hasn't been published yet, and my answer comically is the same as before, again we added a list of improvements that we wanted to see in the new version of the project.

I don't go punctually from each one, for reasons of time, but I want to mention one that made me jump out of my chair when Ti_ presented it.

And it is that he has modified the way the game works, so that Sonic can finally start with his feet on the ground


I know that many will not understand what I am talking about, but those who have followed the project from the beginning will know that it was one of the most anticipated features for too long. :beer:

Jungledrew2005
Yep, but it won't come in this update (I think that in one of my networks I gave more information about it, sorry, I don't like to repeat myself, also in them you can find many unpublished things ;))

(mockup)

ChromiusMixin
Regarding your proposal, although it feels more and more possible to design the levels closer to the original material, I think that for the moment it is still a better idea to create more minimal concepts, taking into account the system to which it is directed.

It is enough to see the original design of Scrap Brain, to realize that, first, without checkpoints, players will insult our ancestors when they lose, second, due to the difference in resolution, the corridors will feel longer and deserted, also, On the technical side, the current limit of enemies and items would have to be expanded considerably.

And most important; It is logical to assume that all levels should have a similar filing, I mean, a good level design is one that prepares you for the next challenge, if the formula suddenly changed, not only would the difficulty curve be affected, but also the player may suffer a disconnection with the game. (Or at least that's my point of view)

About how we edit the levels, here you can see some videos where I show how we make a stage from scratch.

But simplifying it, you start by creating a model with Tiled, then in CadEditor the final blocks are made, and we export that data to the rom, and with Sonic_editor, we add objects and enemies.

This is Sonic Editor, in it, the scenery is visualized by loading images stored in a .PNG, so these can be customized to improve the understanding of each act.

Open in another tab to view in original size

To conclude, woring is currently working on Scrap Brain, and it would be necessary that you can show us something that lets us know that you are capable of doing such a demanding task, in order to consider your request, otherwise, to my regret, you will only hinder his work.
Linktree  | Better a small finished project than a thousand giant ideas stuck in your system.

Googie


SuperStarFox

Quote from: sics on January 24, 2023, 06:55:26 PMYou are probably wondering why the hack hasn't been published yet, and my answer comically is the same as before, again we added a list of improvements that we wanted to see in the new version of the project.

I don't go punctually from each one, for reasons of time, but I want to mention one that made me jump out of my chair when Ti_ presented it.

And it is that he has modified the way the game works, so that Sonic can finally start with his feet on the ground


I know that many will not understand what I am talking about, but those who have followed the project from the beginning will know that it was one of the most anticipated features for too long. :beer:

Jungledrew2005
Yep, but it won't come in this update (I think that in one of my networks I gave more information about it, sorry, I don't like to repeat myself, also in them you can find many unpublished things ;))

(mockup)

ChromiusMixin
Regarding your proposal, although it feels more and more possible to design the levels closer to the original material, I think that for the moment it is still a better idea to create more minimal concepts, taking into account the system to which it is directed.

It is enough to see the original design of Scrap Brain, to realize that, first, without checkpoints, players will insult our ancestors when they lose, second, due to the difference in resolution, the corridors will feel longer and deserted, also, On the technical side, the current limit of enemies and items would have to be expanded considerably.

And most important; It is logical to assume that all levels should have a similar filing, I mean, a good level design is one that prepares you for the next challenge, if the formula suddenly changed, not only would the difficulty curve be affected, but also the player may suffer a disconnection with the game. (Or at least that's my point of view)

About how we edit the levels, here you can see some videos where I show how we make a stage from scratch.

But simplifying it, you start by creating a model with Tiled, then in CadEditor the final blocks are made, and we export that data to the rom, and with Sonic_editor, we add objects and enemies.

This is Sonic Editor, in it, the scenery is visualized by loading images stored in a .PNG, so these can be customized to improve the understanding of each act.

Open in another tab to view in original size

To conclude, woring is currently working on Scrap Brain, and it would be necessary that you can show us something that lets us know that you are capable of doing such a demanding task, in order to consider your request, otherwise, to my regret, you will only hinder his work.
ALRIGHT Ti_! Woooooooooo!
Looks like we're eating good just like last year!  :thumbsup:

ChromiusMixin

Quote from: sics on January 24, 2023, 06:55:26 PMYou are probably wondering why the hack hasn't been published yet, and my answer comically is the same as before, again we added a list of improvements that we wanted to see in the new version of the project.

I don't go punctually from each one, for reasons of time, but I want to mention one that made me jump out of my chair when Ti_ presented it.

And it is that he has modified the way the game works, so that Sonic can finally start with his feet on the ground


I know that many will not understand what I am talking about, but those who have followed the project from the beginning will know that it was one of the most anticipated features for too long. :beer:

Jungledrew2005
Yep, but it won't come in this update (I think that in one of my networks I gave more information about it, sorry, I don't like to repeat myself, also in them you can find many unpublished things ;))

(mockup)

ChromiusMixin
Regarding your proposal, although it feels more and more possible to design the levels closer to the original material, I think that for the moment it is still a better idea to create more minimal concepts, taking into account the system to which it is directed.

It is enough to see the original design of Scrap Brain, to realize that, first, without checkpoints, players will insult our ancestors when they lose, second, due to the difference in resolution, the corridors will feel longer and deserted, also, On the technical side, the current limit of enemies and items would have to be expanded considerably.

And most important; It is logical to assume that all levels should have a similar filing, I mean, a good level design is one that prepares you for the next challenge, if the formula suddenly changed, not only would the difficulty curve be affected, but also the player may suffer a disconnection with the game. (Or at least that's my point of view)

About how we edit the levels, here you can see some videos where I show how we make a stage from scratch.

But simplifying it, you start by creating a model with Tiled, then in CadEditor the final blocks are made, and we export that data to the rom, and with Sonic_editor, we add objects and enemies.

This is Sonic Editor, in it, the scenery is visualized by loading images stored in a .PNG, so these can be customized to improve the understanding of each act.

Open in another tab to view in original size

To conclude, woring is currently working on Scrap Brain, and it would be necessary that you can show us something that lets us know that you are capable of doing such a demanding task, in order to consider your request, otherwise, to my regret, you will only hinder his work.

Looking good again, that is a quality Super Sonic flight pose not gonna lie.
Now, as for Sonic finally having his feet planted firmly onto the ground upon starting an act? Best thing so far for separating it from the cheap knockoff bootleg it once was.

As for constructing levels, while I'm sure I could learn the tools with a more in-depth explanation, including on one or two steps I find a bit harder to follow such as making a complete tilemap that Tiled can use in that first video, my artistic envision may not fit as well, if you want a taste of that, constructed in a more traditional art program:

I took the first screen in Sonic 1 when you get dropped off into GHZ Act 1:


And translated into this, using the NES' 256x240 resolution:


Including smaller details such as the small declines in the path and the first ring you can see at the edge of the screen.
Essentially what I tried to express, the intent to translate the Mega Drive stages into something more NES-friendly.

Judging by your feedback however, I can imagine you aren't looking for imitations of the Mega Drive stages, but something that would more fit the NES/Famicom, and I can see your reasoning as Sonic 1 NES's physics engine simply would not allow for stuff even in GHZ 1 where you roll into the tube section and get launched off a ramp into a bunch of rings in the air.


sics

It is a bit naive to believe that these decisions are made solely due to a disparity in the artistic vision, and it is that just by looking at its model it should be clear that to recreate the original settings much more is needed than changing the arrangement of the elements.

Any game worth playing should mainly be fun, and although as I said a long time ago, I'm convinced that sooner or later this project will evolve into a true port, it doesn't make sense to build a second floor to a house that still doesn't have doors.

By this I mean that if we are few and our resources are scarce, it is necessary to divide the objectives, in order to set goals that we can face, minimizing setbacks, otherwise we will not reach a successful port.

On the scale of things, we could take the ex. from Labyrinth Zone, this one was long, but that didn't mean it was better or more fun, just the opposite, in the current version, we have reduced its route.

Now it's not so frustrating to die there, the monotonous sectors are gone, we freed up enough resources so there are no more fake bubbles, we pretty much eliminated that constant feeling of disorientation it caused.

And it is that sometimes it is better, something modest, but done with care, than something very big, but without attention to details ;)
Linktree  | Better a small finished project than a thousand giant ideas stuck in your system.

BootLeg_Lover_BR7

#532
Hi! Everyone i create an account to talk with everyone I'm really fan of this project :laugh:, and maybe if you add options and Blue Spheres menu i will be better for me and people because get all the emeralds its a kinda busy..
Well great work! Guys!! :woot!:

Nik Pi

Blue spheres, super sonic.. hey guys, maybe you should to start Sonic 3K demake basing on this hack, or with new engine?
And, is it possible to make game looking more like.. idk, like sega master system? At least Sonic's sprites

BootLeg_Lover_BR7

Well I really recommend remove the cutscenes.. :-\
  maybe it can be very high for NES :(
And you can use for other things... :riso:

Quote from: ChromiusMixin on January 27, 2023, 10:25:31 PMLooking good again, that is a quality Super Sonic flight pose not gonna lie.
Now, as for Sonic finally having his feet planted firmly onto the ground upon starting an act? Best thing so far for separating it from the cheap knockoff bootleg it once was.

As for constructing levels, while I'm sure I could learn the tools with a more in-depth explanation, including on one or two steps I find a bit harder to follow such as making a complete tilemap that Tiled can use in that first video, my artistic envision may not fit as well, if you want a taste of that, constructed in a more traditional art program:

I took the first screen in Sonic 1 when you get dropped off into GHZ Act 1:


And translated into this, using the NES' 256x240 resolution:


Including smaller details such as the small declines in the path and the first ring you can see at the edge of the screen.
Essentially what I tried to express, the intent to translate the Mega Drive stages into something more NES-friendly.

Judging by your feedback however, I can imagine you aren't looking for imitations of the Mega Drive stages, but something that would more fit the NES/Famicom, and I can see your reasoning as Sonic 1 NES's physics engine simply would not allow for stuff even in GHZ 1 where you roll into the tube section and get launched off a ramp into a bunch of rings in the air.


and the this is looking very good :woot!:

ChromiusMixin

Quote from: BootLeg_Lover_BR7 on January 29, 2023, 04:25:06 PMWell I really recommend remove the cutscenes.. :-\
  maybe it can be very high for NES :(
And you can use for other things... :riso:
 and the this is looking very good :woot!:
I've no doubt it looks confident enough, but ultimately Sics said it better than me, it wouldn't be ideal to exactly replicate the original level geometry given the limitations in place not only in the hack as is, but possibly the NES as a whole. To clarify as well, this wasn't made with something like Tiled unfortunately; while I did try to follow a tutorial there is at least one or two resources I wouldn't have right away that'd stop me from actually trying to even replicate the level geometry in the first place. Ultimately, it may be better to simplify the original levels in the future when that time comes, or make whole new levels that feel similar to what you'd play in actual Sonic 1.

As things already are however, the bootleg's level designs, despite not having been COMPLETELY changed, are looking a hundred times more tolerable with all the changes made to the game.

sics

#536
BootLeg_Lover_BR7
Hello and welcome, I'm glad you like this project :thumbsup:

I'm not sure whether I understand your proposal, it's one thing to add a menu to be able to play the special stages separately, and quite another to add a cheat so that the player starts with all the chaos emeralds.

On the other hand, PacManfan64 shared a proposal to create a menu to be able to enjoy the special stages separately, together with a nice design (which is too early to spoil), it's a matter of seeing how that idea evolves, since I imagine that first we should design the new SMS style special stages.

Again, I find it hard to understand you, do you mean to dispense with the final cut scenes? I think the most interesting thing about this project is to see how far the NES can be taken, using only the resources that developers had in the past.

Nik Pi
Sorry, on the one hand I have never played S3 or S&K, on the other, in the future I would like to try to make my own games like most of the current hacks.

RetroKidKnuckles already has a project like the one you mention, I should take a look at it:
 
 
Please remember to support their videos by leaving a like!

ChromiusMixin
I would like to emphasize that it is not impossible, it is more woring has made the attempt with quite good results.
Please remember to support their videos by leaving a like!

My answers here are only about the reality of the project, and as I mentioned it is not reasonable to design a single level with radically different criteria from the rest, especially since it is not only about the scenario, for it to perform correctly, it must go accompanied by a large set of mechanics that the game lacks and since the programmer has the greatest workload, a priori it doesn't seem like the best way to go.

And in linking this topic with the previous question, currently the tools we use are constantly evolving along with this hack, but when we finish we will make them available to the community, so that anyone can make their ideas come true :beer:
Linktree  | Better a small finished project than a thousand giant ideas stuck in your system.

SuperStarFox

Quote from: sics on January 31, 2023, 02:54:05 AMBootLeg_Lover_BR7
Hello and welcome, I'm glad you like this project :thumbsup:

I'm not sure whether I understand your proposal, it's one thing to add a menu to be able to play the special stages separately, and quite another to add a cheat so that the player starts with all the chaos emeralds.

On the other hand, PacManfan64 shared a proposal to create a menu to be able to enjoy the special stages separately, together with a nice design (which is too early to spoil), it's a matter of seeing how that idea evolves, since I imagine that first we should design the new SMS style special stages.

Again, I find it hard to understand you, do you mean to dispense with the final cut scenes? I think the most interesting thing about this project is to see how far the NES can be taken, using only the resources that developers had in the past.

Nik Pi
Sorry, on the one hand I have never played S3 or S&K, on the other, in the future I would like to try to make my own games like most of the current hacks.

RetroKidKnuckles already has a project like the one you mention, I should take a look at it:
 
 
Please remember to support their videos by leaving a like!

ChromiusMixin
I would like to emphasize that it is not impossible, it is more woring has made the attempt with quite good results.
Please remember to support their videos by leaving a like!

My answers here are only about the reality of the project, and as I mentioned it is not reasonable to design a single level with radically different criteria from the rest, especially since it is not only about the scenario, for it to perform correctly, it must go accompanied by a large set of mechanics that the game lacks and since the programmer has the greatest workload, a priori it doesn't seem like the best way to go.

And in linking this topic with the previous question, currently the tools we use are constantly evolving along with this hack, but when we finish we will make them available to the community, so that anyone can make their ideas come true :beer:
Looks great.

Fray

This project is great sics. Just for fun, have you tried using some color emphasis to see what comes out in the final result? I mean, if you can get warmer colors like the master system....

StickyChannel92

Quote from: sics on January 31, 2023, 02:54:05 AMBootLeg_Lover_BR7
Hello and welcome, I'm glad you like this project :thumbsup:

I'm not sure whether I understand your proposal, it's one thing to add a menu to be able to play the special stages separately, and quite another to add a cheat so that the player starts with all the chaos emeralds.

On the other hand, PacManfan64 shared a proposal to create a menu to be able to enjoy the special stages separately, together with a nice design (which is too early to spoil), it's a matter of seeing how that idea evolves, since I imagine that first we should design the new SMS style special stages.

Again, I find it hard to understand you, do you mean to dispense with the final cut scenes? I think the most interesting thing about this project is to see how far the NES can be taken, using only the resources that developers had in the past.

Nik Pi
Sorry, on the one hand I have never played S3 or S&K, on the other, in the future I would like to try to make my own games like most of the current hacks.

RetroKidKnuckles already has a project like the one you mention, I should take a look at it:
 
 
Please remember to support their videos by leaving a like!

ChromiusMixin
I would like to emphasize that it is not impossible, it is more woring has made the attempt with quite good results.
Please remember to support their videos by leaving a like!

My answers here are only about the reality of the project, and as I mentioned it is not reasonable to design a single level with radically different criteria from the rest, especially since it is not only about the scenario, for it to perform correctly, it must go accompanied by a large set of mechanics that the game lacks and since the programmer has the greatest workload, a priori it doesn't seem like the best way to go.

And in linking this topic with the previous question, currently the tools we use are constantly evolving along with this hack, but when we finish we will make them available to the community, so that anyone can make their ideas come true :beer:

Again, that's great work! I always believed Somari's levels can be edited since I've tried Talui's Adventure.  :angel:

One idea I had in mind for a really long time was to change the physics a bit, to where Sonic starts off slow when holding right or left on the d-pad then gradually speeds up (unlike in Sonic Vol. 2 where he starts moving fast and possibly uncontrollable soonest I press right or left), akeen to a fan project called Somari 3D Blast 5, where Sonic moves just like the Mega Drive games.

The first time I've played the (current) latest version of the improvement project, I had to use save states because of his physics. :-\