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Author Topic: Chrono Trigger Bugfix and Uncensoring Patch  (Read 5542 times)

Chronosplit

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Re: Chrono Trigger Bugfix and Uncensoring Patch
« Reply #40 on: December 26, 2017, 02:29:14 pm »
Alright, I feel it's a good idea to talk about what the roadmap will be come next year.

-First of all, if anyone takes any issue with any line I've wrote bring it up to me.  There may be some point where it doesn't match a character's personality or it sticks out from the rest of the script. With recent events, I want to make absolutely sure that everything is coherent.  Same goes with grammar issues.
-First priority once the project itself is finished will be MSU1/FMVs.  This will require a special job as we've all confirmed, but it shouldn't be too much trouble.  Also if one doesn't want the PS1 FMVs it should work without perfectly fine.
-After that, I guess the last big thing is Frog and the Middle Ages.  The big thing to update with is that I've been doing some thinking on this situation.  I have a few things to bring up about it:

1. The main inspiration for the general feel of 600 AD's NPC text will be from Dragon Warrior 1 for the NES.  Why?  Well, a lot of what happens in Frog's storyline is a take on general fairytale and JRPG tropes.  Going in that style re-enforces that idea.  Also, this keeps in with Woolsey's original localization ideas while making it less annoying to read, a big deal for NPCs (yes, Frog and the Middle Ages will be unified).  There are other reasons like acknowledgement of Cross, but those are the main ones.

2. While I'll be modifying about every NPC line in 600 AD, I will make the best effort to keep the original localized text and it's meaning intact to deliver you the best job possible.  The majority of minor NPC lines will basically be the same with a "shall" or "thy" thrown in and contractions rid of.  There may be a couple of times when I'll have to refer to the original text and go from there however.

3. #1 also means that all -th suffixes will be purged.  You're welcome.

4. Frog himself will be given an even more archaic tone than those around him to differentiate him from the era.  He'll be given a bit more of a Shakespearean touch.

5. Magus won't be affected by this because he's not of the era.  I’m also considering just leaving at least Magus's generals alone.  It pains me to alter "Ozzie's in a jam" and such.

6. Here’s the big one that may cause a lot of people to have an issue: unfortunately I won’t be able to make this optional, due in part to the current release setup. (Nope, this will be optional.)  However I do promise that I’ll make sure that if not improved to most reading the new material, that it’ll be the least obnoxious that I can make it.  And after it’s out, if you would like to yell at me over something I wrote I will be glad to address it.  I have no intention of doing anything that would make the game worse to anyone.

This will all take quite the while, and on top of that I'll be doing everything in quadruple.  This work will probably all take place after the fancy stuff due to that.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 01:37:57 pm by Chronosplit »

Kiyoshi Aman

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Re: Chrono Trigger Bugfix and Uncensoring Patch
« Reply #41 on: December 28, 2017, 10:53:13 am »
Except that kinda neutralizes Frog's whole gimmick—he's the only person in 600 AD who speaks formally. Woolsey's decision to recast that affect as Elizabethan English is a bit stilted, but that's primarily because he wasn't very good at it. Making everyone speak that way completely erases that part of Frog's identity as a character.

andrewclunn

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Re: Chrono Trigger Bugfix and Uncensoring Patch
« Reply #42 on: December 28, 2017, 11:15:37 am »
Except that kinda neutralizes Frog's whole gimmick—he's the only person in 600 AD who speaks formally. Woolsey's decision to recast that affect as Elizabethan English is a bit stilted, but that's primarily because he wasn't very good at it. Making everyone speak that way completely erases that part of Frog's identity as a character.

Disagree.

Vanya

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Re: Chrono Trigger Bugfix and Uncensoring Patch
« Reply #43 on: December 28, 2017, 11:38:50 am »
Second that disagreement.

Digitsie

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Re: Chrono Trigger Bugfix and Uncensoring Patch
« Reply #44 on: December 28, 2017, 12:05:07 pm »
Third that disagreement.

The one thing I might do to distinguish Frog from the rest would probably be to make him more formal (Shakespearean) than ye olde english.

Kiyoshi Aman

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Re: Chrono Trigger Bugfix and Uncensoring Patch
« Reply #45 on: December 28, 2017, 10:17:44 pm »
Would any of you like to explain why you disagree, or is this one of those "he's a nitpicking dickwad, fuck him and his opinions" things?

Mugi

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Re: Chrono Trigger Bugfix and Uncensoring Patch
« Reply #46 on: December 29, 2017, 01:48:08 am »
I for one, think it would be cool to see everyone having the same kind of dialect, it always struct me odd why frog would be the only person who talks like that.

What comes to him losing his character over it, thats like saying that I've lost my character since Im speaking english on the internet instead of my native language, that's just not how it works. It doesnt degrade frog as a character at all to unify the style with the people of his timeline at all in my opinion.
In PSP we trust.

andrewclunn

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Re: Chrono Trigger Bugfix and Uncensoring Patch
« Reply #47 on: December 29, 2017, 09:59:02 am »
Would any of you like to explain why you disagree, or is this one of those "he's a nitpicking dickwad, fuck him and his opinions" things?

I think that Frog's characterization comes from his struggle with overcoming a peaceful nature, understanding that in order to protect those you love you need to be willing to fight for them.  Then even after gaining this courage and determination, dealing with the regret of not being willing or able to do anything to defend his best friend.  Learning to forgive himself through redemption and atonement, which is in line with a strong sense of honor.  He must earn his right to forgive himself.  Add to that the amazing theme song and the ultimate choice by the player over whether his desire for vengeance against Magus has developed into an unquenchable hatred, and you've got a great character arch and developed personality.  If his form of speech is both different because of its old English and formality, then will changing others in the same time period to use the old English diminish his character?  I think not.

Chronosplit

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Re: Chrono Trigger Bugfix and Uncensoring Patch
« Reply #48 on: December 29, 2017, 11:20:55 am »
Noted about making Frog sound more formal.  I've been thinking of ways to set him apart as he should still be.  Maybe I should let the NPCs keep contractions?  Maybe, maybe not.

I totally get the dislike as it's going to be a rather large change compared to my other additions.  It's often said that the worst part of Frog's speech is not his dialect alone but the fact that he's the only one in the entire era that can speak it, including his younger self.  This was already confessed to be an error by Woolsey due to time constraints.  The time part makes even more sense when you read some of Frog's lines which I've already done a small bit into correcting, like "Thee art."

Unfortunately An IPS "Middle Ages addon" collides with everything too much (Temporal Flux will do that), and I'd rather keep everything in single BPS mode.  Also I already have four patches so adding +ME patches may start to get confusing.  I am however, looking at this as the last major thing to happen to the patch outside of fixing... perhaps when this is done I could just put two folders in the download and everyone just chooses their patch that way.  Making 600 AD's changes optional may just be possible if it's wanted?  All work would definitely happen after FMVs though, and you'll get Frog himself edited either way.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2017, 11:43:21 am by Chronosplit »

Digitsie

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Re: Chrono Trigger Bugfix and Uncensoring Patch
« Reply #49 on: December 29, 2017, 11:55:57 am »
It's a thought, but the period piece would have suggested everyone spoke roughly the same dialect.

To use an example of a period piece, Rurouni Kenshin has everyone speak roughly the same -except- the main character, who is trying to be peaceful and pacific, speak much, much more formally than the others. Almost archaic.

So, the Middle Age people should sound like Middle Age people, but Frog himself should sound even more formal than those Middle Age people, rather than be so completely different.

So use Shakespeare for Frog and Ye Olde English for Middle Age, and that should balance it out?

sluffy

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Re: Chrono Trigger Bugfix and Uncensoring Patch
« Reply #50 on: December 29, 2017, 12:31:14 pm »
Threads of Fate had that 1 puzzle with Mint's quest in the "Tower of Maya". In a jail cell she finds two identical Mayas -- one is the fake clone.

They both talk semi-formal but the way they arrange their words threw me off. Ended up wrongly hitting the real sister, which was more hilarious.

Just spitballing an idea.

Chronosplit

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Re: Chrono Trigger Bugfix and Uncensoring Patch
« Reply #51 on: December 29, 2017, 05:20:32 pm »
It's a thought, but the period piece would have suggested everyone spoke roughly the same dialect.

To use an example of a period piece, Rurouni Kenshin has everyone speak roughly the same -except- the main character, who is trying to be peaceful and pacific, speak much, much more formally than the others. Almost archaic.

So, the Middle Age people should sound like Middle Age people, but Frog himself should sound even more formal than those Middle Age people, rather than be so completely different.

So use Shakespeare for Frog and Ye Olde English for Middle Age, and that should balance it out?
Hmm... that has the beginnings of a good idea.  If I were to make a quick guess off the top of my head, the best way of capturing that would be if Frog spoke sort of like Final Fantasy Tactics: War of the Lions comes across at times.  If I do this wrong things can be harder to read for some players, though.

In that case, optional would be 100% happening for both Frog and 600 AD.

Digitsie

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Re: Chrono Trigger Bugfix and Uncensoring Patch
« Reply #52 on: December 29, 2017, 09:51:55 pm »
Seems like that would work. Or keep Woolsey for Frog and make the rest of the middle ages sound more like Final Fantasy Tactics.

Honestly, though, I'd make Frog sound even more formal than the Middle Age-speak, because he's going to hold himself to higher standards, so if FFT: War of the Lion formal speak works for him, do that. Ye Olde English is about as close to the approximation you should get for that era anyway for readability, because god, Middle English is painfully hard to read, as anyone who's read Chaucer in Middle English can tell you.

Kiyoshi Aman

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Re: Chrono Trigger Bugfix and Uncensoring Patch
« Reply #53 on: December 30, 2017, 03:20:30 am »
It's a thought, but the period piece would have suggested everyone spoke roughly the same dialect.

To use an example of a period piece, Rurouni Kenshin has everyone speak roughly the same -except- the main character, who is trying to be peaceful and pacific, speak much, much more formally than the others. Almost archaic.

So, the Middle Age people should sound like Middle Age people, but Frog himself should sound even more formal than those Middle Age people, rather than be so completely different.

So use Shakespeare for Frog and Ye Olde English for Middle Age, and that should balance it out?


This proposal is fine by me.

Chronosplit

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Re: Chrono Trigger Bugfix and Uncensoring Patch
« Reply #54 on: December 30, 2017, 02:57:09 pm »
Sounds good to me then!  First the fancy stuff, then after that will start this whole thing.  In the meantime I'll be looking through to get Frog's words correct at least (no real big changes, just the "correct" use of Thou and spellings, etc.) and that will be the extent that such is changed for what I'll call the "original Middle Ages" branch.  After FMVs are in, the major update after that will start seeing two folders with four patches in each.

As far as readability goes I'm striving to make this as well done as possible.  I don't really think this will be a huge issue for most, but for those in the position where reading it would be an issue or of course they just want to play without what will be one of the bigger changes (I mean, I'm still keeping Sky/Dark and all that separate) it would be best if I divided it up.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2017, 04:47:03 pm by Chronosplit »

Vanya

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Re: Chrono Trigger Bugfix and Uncensoring Patch
« Reply #55 on: January 01, 2018, 10:01:20 pm »
Groovy.

Chronosplit

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Re: Chrono Trigger Bugfix and Uncensoring Patch
« Reply #56 on: January 05, 2018, 02:27:08 pm »
In the meantime, a quick update will soon be in the queue.  It's in the mega just now.

Since last time on this thread:
-Fixed a line in Frog's Burrow which used the wrong tense (should be Thou hast, all the other lines referred to the party by Thou).
-Fixed a mention of the wrong Guru in the Last Village (Melchior gave the seedling, this was an inconsistency on the localization's part.)
-Ayla's "Rule of Life" is now "Law of this Earth," rule changed to law (this Earth mention is getting to be a bit of a reoccurring theme now, huh).
-Ayla now mentions coming to eat and drink on the first meeting with her (a bit of a compromise here... it does seem that one would both eat and drink at a prehistoric party anyway).

January 07, 2018, 10:56:57 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
I was just notified of something I've missed, and it all checks out.  In Magus's incantation, right before he's interrupted by Frog he says "exchange this world for..."  This, in tying with the minor theme I've been figuring out of earth, should be "exchange this earth's life for..."  I would not call this uncensoring (the rest of it is untouched and doesn't need to be touched at all), but Come to think of it I know some don't like Cross but that's one of it's themes too.

Also decapitalized Earth in Ayla's speech; usually earth is decapitalized in the original script, and the reason why it's capitalized in the original text appears to be because the chapter name (Unnatural Selection) is Law of the Earth.  It's a title call.

I'm thinking of waiting before a new version is put in RHDN, but you'll find that in the Mega.  Maybe I'll dredge up more of these mentions.  Ah heck, I can change the title to match the thread name while I'm at it.  I'm submitting!

January 08, 2018, 01:09:56 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Wait one more thing- outside of Bugfix Alone the music in the Millennial Fair was marked as none.  Weird but I'm fixing it.

EDIT: Done, looks like the fair and End of Time both had weirdness, the latter in all versions.  Let me know if anyone finds any music cue oddities, I need to keep these intact for more than one reason.

January 11, 2018, 10:33:50 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
New patch submitted, stuff since last time:
-A good bit of formatting fixes.  Some snuck in during early testing after the no-indent idea came about.
-Music cue for Guardia Throneroom (present) fixed in a couple of patches.  How does this keep happening?
-Corrected Power Meal/Bento Box's description to make it less weird.

If there are no more music cue issues or anything like that, this will be the last big thing until a major update.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 10:33:50 am by Chronosplit »

Chronosplit

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Re: Chrono Trigger Bugfix and Uncensoring Patch
« Reply #57 on: January 18, 2018, 09:07:17 am »
Latest RHDN patch:
-Music transition issues should be gone for good now.  I believe these were caused by how I was shifting between versions and modifying one at a time (the music wasn't being read apparently, leading to it being saved as 0xFF.)
-I was alerted that this project doesn't work on SNES Classic natively, so I added that mention to the readme.  I don't own one, however I'm pretty sure that a RetroArch core will suffice here.  Talk to me if you have any other info on this.
-Melchior's Truce Village mention is properly capitalized.
-Small bug fixes to Magus's Inner Sanctum (for some reason the after-battle masamune mention wasn't changed... not sure what happened there.)

Prep for 3.0:
So yeah, this is coming out next unless anything big gets reported.  The bugs fixed in the last patch were meant to be a part of this.
-I've been looking through script comparisons and I believe that special Earth mentions (meaning: not as an expression but talking about the planet itself) should be the next top priority, especially in the Prehistoric period.  It appears that the original localization diluted these while Cross's translation kept them strong.  This isn't as drastic as you'd think, just that this is a thing the sequel dug into pretty big and I think this is a small connection we missed out on unintentionally.  I feel like these should be there in full force since I'm already doing things like Plates, X-Strike, Sunglasses, etc.
-The Prehistoric period in general's themes of Reptites and Humans fighting for survival are strengthened when brought up.  I guess Square kinda thought this was a bit too evolution centered and Woolsey had to tone things down here.  Either way, this is not only a strong theme throughout the period but something brought up in the sequel a few times (mostly not far from the ending IIRC).
-More law of the earth things.  It's been changed to law of earth, because that's more in line with Ayla's speech.  This pops up a few times over Tyranno Lair, I'm surprised Woolsey didn't make rule of life a reoccurring thing like it should've been.  Oh well.
-In the Lavos core, Marle in the added line still talked about Prehistory.  I just changed this to "Ayla's time" because it sounds more like Marle.
-I may look into Frog's introductory talk.  Extending it a little to match his other speech sounds okay, since some of these words aren't used by him again.
-In the Prehistoric party, I want to make Crono's second choice after the first "no" to Lucca match the lines in the first theme-wise.  This is reaching back to things Axiphel had shown me; I had originally thrown it out for not quite being in the same direction I had wanted.  Not sure what to do here yet.
-I may go through and capitalize the first point.  Earth in these cases is used in a bit more of an honorable way, this is the best way I can symbolize this.  The original localization doesn't really show any difference though.  Law of Earth would be given the same treatment.

I'll be updating the Mega as I go along with stuff changed as well as the OP, so if you want this stuff while I'm working on it grab it from there.  I anticipate a bit more of a wait until it's in RHDN this time.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 11:41:34 am by Chronosplit »

Kiyoshi Aman

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Re: Chrono Trigger Bugfix and Uncensoring Patch
« Reply #58 on: January 18, 2018, 03:21:30 pm »
"Law of the Earth" is what the "Unnatural Selection" chapter title is supposed to be anyhow, which is why the script talks about it so much. In general, the chapter titles are kinda off. I don't blame Woolsey for this, since Horii just loved using colloquialisms when he wrote them. CTDS didn't really do much to fix them (screen space concerns, maybe?), either.

There's a fair bit of difference in general, so here are my notes from some years ago.

Chronosplit

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Re: Chrono Trigger Bugfix and Uncensoring Patch
« Reply #59 on: January 18, 2018, 05:10:42 pm »
I've noticed that too.  I'm not really sure about editing chapter names as I'm somewhat unsure about what the effect on saves is (something I need to look up).  I don't want to disturb things more than once in that area.

Thanks a lot for the list!  I'll definitely be giving this a huge rundown along with the rest.  This is a bit more handy than what I had for some things.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 11:04:26 pm by Chronosplit »