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Author Topic: Final Fantasy I Redux [COMPLETE]  (Read 12749 times)

Vanya

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Re: Final Fantasy I Redux [COMPLETE]
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2017, 10:03:14 pm »
So at best you'd have to have to code 2 algorithms that share some code?
Is the existing vanilla code optimize-able to squeeze out some more space?

Disch

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Re: Final Fantasy I Redux [COMPLETE]
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2017, 11:41:54 pm »
So at best you'd have to have to code 2 algorithms that share some code?

Well, I'd have to write a routine to convert one format to another.  Then all shop code can use the same logic.

Quote
Is the existing vanilla code optimize-able to squeeze out some more space?

I could definitely squeeze out enough space if I can move stuff around -- but to make this "patch friendly" I can't really move stuff around.  =/


Vanya

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Re: Final Fantasy I Redux [COMPLETE]
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2017, 03:58:42 pm »
Ah. Makes sense.
Take the simpler data, rewrite it in the more complex format somewhere, then use the one routine to process that data as if it were the more complex one.

SCO

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Re: Final Fantasy I Redux [COMPLETE]
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2017, 05:16:35 pm »
The page and the readme needs to mention that the base hack and all of the fixes of that base hack is included. This is not  only for accreditation, cause as a luser, i don't care; but because when i was deciding which one to use i had to come to the forum topic to see 'ahhh, it bundles the rest, this is the one'. It's in your best interest to advertise you stand on the shoulders of giants.

Bregalad

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Re: Final Fantasy I Redux [COMPLETE]
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2017, 04:09:05 am »
Well, I'd have to write a routine to convert one format to another.  Then all shop code can use the same logic.

I could definitely squeeze out enough space if I can move stuff around -- but to make this "patch friendly" I can't really move stuff around.  =/
I think it's definitely important to make it as "patch friendly" as possible... In the original FF1 it's already hard to know which weapons can be equipped by who and the only real way to know without wasting money is to look it up. Now hacks often changes weapons, which means it's even harder to "guess" who can equip what. With harmour it's the same nightmare. If you mess up and buy something you didn't need, you're effectively wasting half of the item's price as it sells back for half price.

For magic it's less hard to know who can equip what, because often there's some kind of logic behind this, black mages can learn all black magic and white mages all white magic, and red mages everything but up to a certain level. The only issues is for upgraded classes which can equip some low level magic, but this is rarely useful as those are obsolete by the point you can upgrade your party (healing spells don't heal enough, offensive spells don't hurt enough, so basically this is a worthless and gimmicky feature). For hacks with new classes, such as this very FF Redux, it might be very useful though, because we don't know how the hacks author mapped new spells to new classes.

If such a hack is not possible, then at least make is so that items are sold for the same price as they're bought. That way we can buy an item, test, and if it's useless we can just return it without wasting money.

lexluthermiester

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Re: Final Fantasy I Redux [COMPLETE]
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2017, 04:44:18 am »
Been having a lot of fun with this. The class selections at the beginning and differing equipment/magic for each class is a very interesting touch and adds value to the game in a big way. The Viking, Magic Knight and Summoner are a lot of fun! And thank you for giving the mages/wizard the ability to equip armor. Very cool indeed.

One game mechanic that has yet to be addressed by any FF1 patch I've seen is the battle targeting. When you select a target with multiple allies and one kills that target, the ally that also targeted that same enemy should logically choose another instead of continuing to aim at a dead/gone target and being "ineffective". This has been fixed in all games that followed. Is it possible to change this mechanic? It would be a very well loved and appreciated feature. Just a thought..

Bregalad

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Re: Final Fantasy I Redux [COMPLETE]
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2017, 04:55:59 am »
One game mechanic that has yet to be addressed by any FF1 patch I've seen is the battle targeting. When you select a target with multiple allies and one kills that target, the ally that also targeted that same enemy should logically choose another instead of continuing to aim at a dead/gone target and being "ineffective". This has been fixed in all games that followed.
No, this wasn't fixed until FF3. Also this was (indirectly) fixed by the Dynamic Action patch and it's unofficial upgrade, which changes the battle system, but unfortunately both have their glitches/issues, and they are likely to be not "friendly" compatible with other hacks.

EDIT: I know its unnecessary gimmicky, but it would be fun if my weird technique to allow a third colour in sprites without using overlay would be implemented, allowing for better sprites. That'd be very hard to implement on an existing game engine, though, even if it is extensively reverse-engineered and understood.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 05:11:32 am by Bregalad »

lexluthermiester

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Re: Final Fantasy I Redux [COMPLETE]
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2017, 06:30:25 am »
No, this wasn't fixed until FF3
Really? Thought they'd fixed it in FF2. Maybe just thinking of the remakes..

linkncb16

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Re: Final Fantasy I Redux [COMPLETE]
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2017, 08:54:28 am »
Really? Thought they'd fixed it in FF2. Maybe just thinking of the remakes..
Yeah, it was FF III, however magic targeting was still not fixed until FF IV.
Final Fantasy Redux is complete! Download

Disch

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Re: Final Fantasy I Redux [COMPLETE]
« Reply #29 on: April 26, 2017, 12:02:30 pm »
I must be the only one that likes the "ineffective" thing in FF1.  It makes logical sense -- since all this stuff is supposedly happening simultaneously, if both you and your buddy head towards the same enemy and your buddy happens to strike first and take him out, you'll have to take time to reorient and go to another enemy.

Plus, it makes the battles at least somewhat interesting.  FF1 you actually have to think about who you want to attack, unlike most games where you just hold the A button and have your team wipe out the enemies automatically.

lexluthermiester

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Re: Final Fantasy I Redux [COMPLETE]
« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2017, 06:04:58 pm »
I must be the only one that likes the "ineffective" thing in FF1.  It makes logical sense -- since all this stuff is supposedly happening simultaneously, if both you and your buddy head towards the same enemy and your buddy happens to strike first and take him out, you'll have to take time to reorient and go to another enemy.
While your point is understandable I still disagree somewhat. Having been in "real-time battle situations", when a foe is taken down by an ally, it takes a split-second to move on to another. In a game, the "lose a turn if your target's dead" thing is an irritation and just feels clunky. But if you enjoy, you enjoy it. More power to you. I'm guessing you like or even love the FF Tactics series?

Plus, it makes the battles at least somewhat interesting.  FF1 you actually have to think about who you want to attack, unlike most games where you just hold the A button and have your team wipe out the enemies automatically.
That's a good point. Of course for some people it can end up feeling more cumbersome like a strategy type RPG, which isn't for everyone. And I'm one of those grind for a few hours and then hold down the button to breeze through common enemies for an area. The minor and major bosses are the fights I tend to enjoy. But then again, ActionRPG's have always been my personal preference.

SCO

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Re: Final Fantasy I Redux [COMPLETE]
« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2017, 08:30:47 pm »
There are plenty of things that turn-based rpgs and (especially) srpg do that make little sense from a simulationistic viewpoint even with the fad that crowd has of considering simulation 'better' than other approaches.

Frankly, i think they're wrong. A game like say, Gungnir, even with its badly documented, but well thought out and unique systems stands head and shoulders above most other cargo cults of Final Fantasy Tactics (Hoshigami Remix for example, though that game has a single engaging system on its knockback puzzles).

In this situation i can well understand the viewpoint that makes a battle more entertaining if you have to think about your moves at least one step in advance. It's not enough to turn it 'super entertaining' to me, because that sort of effort is not variable or attention grabbing enough to not get tedious in a heavy random encounter game.

I'd support a scheme like that for a actual tactical simultaneous turns game (not turnbased, Frozen Synapse for example), ie: games where 'missing' is natural, and planning ahead several turns is made more complex by it; but on TB rpg with no movement and few combatants it feels both superfluous and something i won't bother with because it's no great penalty, so i personally agree it might as well go away.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 12:23:58 am by SCO »

Bregalad

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Re: Final Fantasy I Redux [COMPLETE]
« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2017, 04:19:20 am »
Quote
Yeah, it was FF III, however magic targeting was still not fixed until FF IV.
I'm pretty sure you can waste Cure spells or healing items on KOed party members in PS1-era Final Fantasy games. Which is why I developed the strategy of having wounded people only heal themselves in order to fix this problem - at least if they are knocked out I don't waste Mana or items on healing them after that.

Quote
Plus, it makes the battles at least somewhat interesting.  FF1 you actually have to think about who you want to attack, unlike most games where you just hold the A button and have your team wipe out the enemies automatically.
I partially agree, but the problem is that the miss rate is so high that any "strategy" to wipe out enemies in an efficient manner; For example, having a thief and a mage attack Imp A and a more powerful Fighter attacking Imp B on the same round, is likely to fail because your fighter, mage and thief all have a ~40% of chance to miss their attack, reducing this "strategy" to nothing.

Disch

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Re: Final Fantasy I Redux [COMPLETE]
« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2017, 12:16:02 pm »
I partially agree, but the problem is that the miss rate is so high that any "strategy" to wipe out enemies in an efficient manner; For example, having a thief and a mage attack Imp A and a more powerful Fighter attacking Imp B on the same round, is likely to fail because your fighter, mage and thief all have a ~40% of chance to miss their attack, reducing this "strategy" to nothing.

Choosing to double up your attackers in case one of them misses is a strategic option.  Or you can be "risky" and split them in hopes they'll both connect.  It forces you to be more familiar with how well your characters perform, how much damage you've dealt to said enemy up to this point, how much life he has left, etc *.

These are all things that bring you into the game, make you pay attention to what's actually happening, and make you plan and strategize.

Contrast this to auto-retarget where there's no reason not to double-up, so you can just double-up every time and always win every battle as fast as possible without really having to pay attention to what's going on or what your characters are doing.  It takes an engaging battle that you actually have agency in, and turns it into a mindless "hold A to play" snooze-fest.



That's beside the point that your characters missing frequently is only for like the first 1/10th of the game.  Just before the Marsh Cave (or just after, depending on how prepped you are) your fighters start doing two hits, which drastically reduces their miss rate.  Keep in mind... the Marsh Cave is the first real dungeon in the game... so this is really a small portion of the game as a whole.  And by end game your knights/masters/ninjas never miss... not even against high-evade enemies.

And in fact.... I would argue that early-game is the best part of FF1... because it's before your fighters become mindless "always hit" goons.  And it's before your mages can spam the Zeus Gauntlet and other "free spell" items.  Once you get the Zeus Gauntlet in that game, it becomes just as mindless as every other FF game.  But before then, you really have to think.


FF1 would be greatly improved if you keep the "ineffective" attacks, removed the multiple-hits mechanic, removed the free spell items, gave mages more spell charges, and re-balanced the enemies around those changes.  Make every fight something where the party has to consider their options -- think about if it's worth it to use that spell charge or not -- think about how many hits it'll take to knock out that Grogre, and how many attackers you want to put on him.

Not just "put fighters on the big monsters and have your mages use the Zeus Gauntlet and Mage Staff to wipe out all the little ones" for every.... single.... fucking.... battle.


EDIT:

* A great example of this is the OddEye/Sahag fight in the ocean.  OddEyes are physically weak, so one hit from anyone is likely to kill them, but if you miss, you risk being stunned for a few rounds while the sahags pound on you.  So do you have everyone gang up on the OddEye to make sure you take it out right away?  Or do you split up and work on the sahags as well?   Both approaches have pros/cons.  Both have risks.  And it's up to you, the player to choose the best plan of attack.

With auto re-target, just always gang up on the OddEye because there's literally no reason not to.  All thought and fun removed.

And mid-late game?  Just use the Zeus Gauntlet.  Snoooooore.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2017, 12:29:17 pm by Disch »

rainponcho

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Re: Final Fantasy I Redux [COMPLETE]
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2017, 01:05:44 pm »
^ That's a really good argument imo about "no auto-target". Never saw it that way before. Almost feel like spamming the site with lots of "useless" hacks about this. :o

Bregalad

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Re: Final Fantasy I Redux [COMPLETE]
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2017, 01:42:52 pm »
Dish, you're absolutely right. However, I prefer how the later FF games makes battle interesting by almost forcing you to use spells, etc... Dragon Quest games are the worst when it comes to "press A fest", because they're really that. Early FFs too... magic is by far not powerful enough *and* the amount of Mana available to mages is pathetically low, so if you can only cast spells a couple of times without sleeping, inns are very expensive *and* the spells are weak... there is not really any reason to use magic at all.

Quote
That's beside the point that your characters missing frequently is only for like the first 1/10th of the game.
Sure, but it's the 1/10th of the game I play the 9/10th of the time ;)
Actually I only really walked through the whole game once VERY long ago, since then I just play the begining now and then.

I do not remember the Zeus gauntlet but I guess you're right... you should remember that in the original you didn't even know you could use items so you had to try randomly to know you can actually do that.

linkncb16

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Re: Final Fantasy I Redux [COMPLETE]
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2017, 02:51:56 pm »
Good thing my hacks fixes a lot of the previously mentioned problems!  :laugh:
Final Fantasy Redux is complete! Download

dudejo

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Re: Final Fantasy I Redux [COMPLETE]
« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2018, 08:30:04 am »
After playing past the intro segment, one thing I would immediately suggest is to allow the Summoner a strong HP boost at the starter levels.

As it stands, you either play it safe at Coneria and take an eternity to reach level 6 or take a chance at Provoka and spend hundreds of gil to revive the Summoner who keeps dying because of the first-level HP that won't go up at all.

EDIT : Also, unlike the Readme information, the Dwarven cave's treasure room is also locked by the Mystic Key

EDIT 2 : I just noticed weapons with single-target attack spells don't work properly. You can't pick a target and, more often than not, the spell doesn't target anything and automatically misses. I have reason to believe that function was meant to be used exclusively with area spells or caster as target. Perhaps just replace the spell with a high critical chance?

EDIT 3 : I noticed that the Dragoon features high intelligence for a warrior class but...how does the Dragoon take advantage of it? This is especially concerning because the Dragoon is in the same position as the Thief from the vanilla game...

Doesn't the FF Restored base patch make items skip intelligence?

EDIT 4 : There's the next issue of item quantities for potions and antidotes being absent. It may also happen with other items but I don't seem to have triggered it yet.

EDIT 5 : The Heal spell, when cast by the White Mage (possibly other classes but I haven't tried them yet), heals ridiculous amount of HP for some reason. It doesn't have this issue when used as an item and higher levels of the spell don't have this issue. The spell's stats seem appropriate when I look at them through FF Hackster. **I have reason to believe that FF Restored's original spell uses a custom effect not displayed by FF hackster.

**I opened up the patched ROM in a hex editor and restored the original spell effect value from FF Restored. Things seem to be back in order.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2018, 01:25:01 pm by dudejo »