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Author Topic: Un-Worked Designs: Working Designs minus bullshit difficulty (Latest: Lunar 2)  (Read 296824 times)

travel27

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I do not understand this title.

"Bullshit" difficulty in regard to the difficulty of Lunar 1 and 2?  How?  If you just normally go through the game and fight all of the battles, you absolutely will always be at the needed level to get to the next part.  Don't run from any battle, and you won't need to grind and should be able to beat the game with no real issue.

These really are not hard games!

vivify93

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Lunar 2 requiring magic EXP in order to save is pretty bad IMO. Unless you mean the PS1 version, in which case IDK what to say
All my life I've tried to fight what history has given me.

Rudy

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Plus there's merit in people wanting to experience the games the way they were made.

julayla

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I wouldn't mind a real un-Working Design style version of Magic Knights Rayearth. At least fix up the dialogues and fix up the balance of each power the girls have and all that one day.

ifightdragons

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I do not understand this title.

"Bullshit" difficulty in regard to the difficulty of Lunar 1 and 2?  How?  If you just normally go through the game and fight all of the battles, you absolutely will always be at the needed level to get to the next part.  Don't run from any battle, and you won't need to grind and should be able to beat the game with no real issue.

These really are not hard games!

I respectfully disagree, and hard.

https://tcrf.net/Lunar:_Eternal_Blue/Regional_Differences (Horrible changes, all bullshit.)
https://tcrf.net/Lunar:_The_Silver_Star (This one isn't as bad, and is certainly their least egregious example. But it's still bullshit and completely unnecessary.)

Most of the changes are indeed quite "bullshit".
It's all artificially buffing the game and enemies, to pad the length of the campaign.

And by the way, you should be able to run from battles every now and then without it breaking the game's progression.
If not, it's a broken and mostly useless feature.
Forcing you to fight every single time is not good game design.

travel27

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Play more RPGs I guess?

I had no issues playing Lunar. 

vivify93

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Play more RPGs I guess?

I had no issues playing Lunar.
We all play plenty of RPGs here; paying Magic EXP to save is still awful, especially considering how it wasn't in the original. The all caps dialogue is also objectively bad.
All my life I've tried to fight what history has given me.

Chronosplit

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To be fair, I remember hearing years back that some in Japan have actually imported the US version of the PS1 games for the difficulty.  I mean, it'd basically be an official hack of a sort in that point of view.

vivify93

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I don't think fairness is warranted in this case. travel27 seems to be operating in bad-faith that none of us have played an RPG before because we don't like Working Designs making us pay Magic EXP to save, a change even WD themselves admitted is more frustrating than challenging.
All my life I've tried to fight what history has given me.

Spooniest

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Quote
Play more RPGs I guess?

I had no issues playing Lunar.

Low effort "git gud" posting in a romhacking forum, eh...

Well, let me start by saying that you're basically only offering for the conversation to be closed, by the absolute denotative meaning of what you've said. The only problem with that is that the conversation is open, and it's not going to not be open because you don't want it to be open, so you've made kind of a meaningless "flip the bird" gesture and left, in my opinion. Was that your intent?

Secondly, I had plenty of issues playing Lunar when I first played it, namely dying. A lot. Profusely. So there. My experiences are as valid as yours. Right?
Yamero~~!

tc

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If there is any kind of stigma how rom hacks are 'by fans for fans', it isn't unwarranted. The perception is that rom hacks generally make games more challenging.

I don't know why the bad eggs are ridiculing these patches for simply restoring the original intent of the Japanese game.

Spooniest

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Reminded me of https://youtu.be/Y9nDagqKL7Q

ProZD is always good for a laugh 😁
Yamero~~!

ifightdragons

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If there is any kind of stigma how rom hacks are 'by fans for fans', it isn't unwarranted. The perception is that rom hacks generally make games more challenging.

I don't know why the bad eggs are ridiculing these patches for simply restoring the original intent of the Japanese game.

You're absolutely right. Funny thing is, most romhacks that seek to increase difficulty, are complete and utter trash.
Not all, but most.

The best romhacks are often the convenience, redux-type patches, that actually improve facets of the game and in some cases slightly modernizes it.

Spooniest

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I like to think about it like an ecosystem; this comes from having played a lot of FF6, which has the Veldt, where you can affect which monsters appear.

See, if you don't encounter a formation out somewhere else in the world (that is trigger-able for appearing on the Veldt), then it won't appear on the Veldt. Formations are grouped into "Packs" that are like 8 slots each or something (don't recall the exact number), and you encounter Monsters from a randomly rolled (at the time of returning to the Overworld Mode at end of an "on-the-Veldt" battle) "Pack," each time.

Thus, if you skip an encounter, you'll have a better chance of getting encounters that are in its formation pack, because if the dice land on an empty slot in a Pack, they skip to the next entry in that Pack instead, or to the next Pack entirely if the whole Pack is empty.

Like, outside of Narshe with Locke and Terra at the very beginning is one example of this. If you skip encountering "Leaf Bunny" alone, and idk, save spam your way to the forest or w/e, then you no longer can encounter the monster by itself, but also "Dark Wind" a bird enemy. That way, you will not waste an encounter slot on just "Leaf Bunny" later in the Veldt.

Now you might be wondering what this has to do with the subject at hand. Very well I'll tell you.

This is how I came to think of a JRPG and its challenge curve as an "ecosystem," because that's what the Veldt is, in-universe in FF6; a place monsters migrate to from where they normally live. And, if you know what a primary limiting factor is (re: environmental biology), you know that it's possible, if you mess with one value in an ecosystem, you can bring the whole thing crashing down.

That's why, when I do rebalancing (if at all) on any of my FF patches, I try to keep it as close as I can to the way the original game worked. I don't want to unexpectedly take out one element of the ecosystem and screw it all up.

And this is what I feel most people who make a "challenging" version of a game as designed are doing, they have not studied the way the game works or anything, they just figure "higher values on the Monsters and lower values on the characters = harder" and that's just running roughshod over the way the game's original ecosystem worked.
Yamero~~!

ifightdragons

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I think you pretty much nailed it.

Rudy

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I think 7th Saga is a good example of a game ruined by the localization team. I've played the retail US version and the hack that 'rolls back' to the JP stats and there's no doubt the game was destroyed by Enix when they brought it over.

Spooniest

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I think 7th Saga is a good example of a game ruined by the localization team. I've played the retail US version and the hack that 'rolls back' to the JP stats and there's no doubt the game was destroyed by Enix when they brought it over.

I am in agreement. I only played that very briefly, once, and got murdered in my very first encounter. That's a big N-O from me, I never revisited the game.
Yamero~~!

OldSchoolGamer86

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I just want to applaud whoever is working to restore the working designs games back to their original japanese form as far as gameplay is concerned. 

Everyone has an opinion ofcourse but as the OP said, basically if you like the idea of what WD did with the games, the games are there to play already and theres no need to follow the OPs efforts. I personally applaud whomever has worked to restore the games to their original forms. I personally have the Sega CD games on my vita and i much prefer them the way they are now to how they were when WD brought them here.

I prefer the PSX alundra,  and lunar 1 and 2 un working designs patches personally and i was always a fan of working designs as they brought over MANY games that would never have seen the light of day here. But not every change was for the better. 

I am playing through Thousand Arms on PSX and i read in the manual about how atlus upped the dufficulty a bit as well as changed a few other things  simply because many attacks implemented were not even seen in the JP original as it was so easy. I like the US release but i would like to someday play it how it was released in japan as well. 

If your not open minded than simply ignore the projects you dont agree with. The american versions of games that were altered are already available. Having a 2nd option for the people that would prefer to play a game as it was released initially is only a positive thing. 

I wish more people took the time and effort to address some games that had sgameplay and or design ideas implemented that took away from tge enjoyment the game would otherwise have provided.

Kudos to the OP. 

One thing i do wonder about is Arc the Lad. I dont hear much of the changes made to them by WD as much as the other games listed by them here.

Anyway thanks for the Un-Working Design options. If only the translations could get a touchup as well...

Moondrag

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These patches to change the gameplay back to how the original developers intended is a good thing. But I have to say this: The Cutting Room Floor is not your own personal blog to attack Working Designs and call them names. (seriously "Wrecking Designs"?) The Vay page is a perfect example of this, having a entire paragraph that has some quotes from the manual despite it not being needed at all.

KobaBeach

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One thing i do wonder about is Arc the Lad. I dont hear much of the changes made to them by WD as much as the other games listed by them here.

Anyway thanks for the Un-Working Design options. If only the translations could get a touchup as well...

I've been playing Arc the Lad over the past few years and they seem generally the same as the Japanese versions, with some minor adjustments, UI improvements, digitized artwork for portraits in 1.

Something I do have an issue with is a rape implication in Arc II during the Zariban arc, that was literally added in for "flavor" (ew) in Working Designs' version, and a lot of Arc III replacing many terms (気が弱い to describe Kobal, a timid child; ペーパーハンター to describe the second lowest hunter rank; おじさん to describe a painter struck with art block) with just "sissy", "Sissy Hunter" and "fruit" respectively, especially in Lutz's dialogue, a lot of his dialogue is calling people sissies. Not to mention Chongara speaking in broken English in all games because racism against Arabs is funny i guess.

The second is a personal problem with me because a friend of mine, who is latino, feels uncomfortable with that word, possibly because it reminds him of maricón (i know i personally feel uncomfortable with maricas or mariconço in Portuguese), and when I told him a lot of that stuff isn't in JP!Arc III entirely his opinion of Lutz went from having him as his least favorite character in the entire series, 1 to EoD and R, to having separate opinions of Eng!Lutz and Jpn!Lutz.

Call it special snowflake I don't care, seeing queer friends of mine feel oppressed by a game because of a trashy translation choice is unforgivable, even if I'm personally unperturbed by Lutz, he's one of my faves. Not to mention the very blatant homophobic joke of

Leo: "Hiro, I know a good man when I see one..."
Ruby: "I bet you do..."

or whatever at the first hour of Lunar 2.

In JP this is (my interpretations below, not direct translations):
Leo:
ヒイロ・・・・
お前はなかなかいい面構えをしている
役立たずの古学者などやめて
私の部下にならぬか?
戦士として鍛えてやるぞ!!
(Hiro. You seem like a fine man.
Rather than studying ancient useless scriptures,
wouldn't you prefer to become one of my men?
I'd even train you to become a bonafide soldier!)

Ruby:
いやですよ~だ!
ヒイロは自由が好きなんだもん
部下になんかならないわよ
(No way in heck!
Hiro loves his freedom, you hear!
No way is he serving the likes of you!)

This along with the literal welfare joke that's just "lol people with welfare are lazy people who abuse all the taxpayers money and don't work" in the same game as someone who wants to work and have welfare because I suffer from many mental illnesses, while being queer, and the constant gameplay fuckery in a lot of their games, makes me have Zero, yes, Zero Respect for Victor Ireland as a translator and localizer.

You could make the argument that "the original text is dry and boring"*, but really a good writer wouldn't punch up a script by making it uncomfortable to play with South Park Republican jokes. Gamers will really bitch and moan about video game and anime translators putting sus and cringe in an anime or bad doge memes in a 2012 Zelda game, but then go and call Working Designs visionaries of translation.

I literally do not feel comfortable playing Lunar 1&2 despite my slight appreciation for the aesthetics and character designs, every NPC is like another Family Guy/South Park joke. Bahamut Lagoon had a similar issue, even with Near's translation patch, but at least its bad jokes weren't added in by some American douchebag who thought it was funny to shit on an entire Japanese game with crap jokes, it was basically bad writing (in my opinion). It also didn't help that Bahamut Lagoon felt a bit shallow to me in terms of strategy but y'know they can't all be winners, Muni-Muni and his evolutions were funky little eldritch beasts though, love my dragons.

* - Which I disagree because Japanese is very different from English and many people who say this probably don't even read Japanese, I've seen people say this about Zwei!! which also has an absurd translation on the Steam version but literally the only thing XSEED's translation added was worse innuendos, bad memes and really good dad humor on Pokkle's dialogue to make his bad puns seem as bad for English speakers as they do for Japanese speakers which, is a money choice.

** - The Zariban dialogue:

Kasadoll: Mmm. Hmmm. I see. You wish to discuss the hostage.
Nam: I will not discuss this matter with you. I wish to address the King!
Kasadoll: Well, your impertinent tone would suggest that you discovered our little...secret.
Nam: Ghh, you son...of...a...!!
Kasadoll: I'll tell you another secret if you'll shut up for a moment.
Kasadoll: ...
Kasadoll: I was the one that finished your hostage, too.
Kasadoll: But, not before showing her the love she so desperately craved.
Kasadoll: She was such a delicate truffle, it was almost a pity I had to kill her.
Kasadoll: However, orders are orders.
Kasadoll: !
*pan to reveal Elc, Shante, Lieza, Tosh and Poco coming in*
Nam: ...I'll kill you with my bare hands!

(my interpretation on the side)
Kasadoll: ははぁ、わかったぞ、人質のことだな (Hahah, I see... It's about the little hostage, isn't it?)
Nam: 貴様じゃ、話にならん!王をだせ! (I do not wish to speak to you! I demand the King!)
Kasadoll: はっはっは、今頃気づいたってわけか、この親ふこう者め! (Gahaha, so you figured it all out! Too bad you've come too late.)
Nam: ググ、キ・・サ・・・マ!! (Grr... You big motherf...)
Kasadoll: ちなみに教えて差し上げようか! (I'll also let you in on a little secret.)
Kasadoll: あの女にとどめを刺したのも この俺様ってわけだ (I was the one who finished your dear mother off.)
Kasadoll: !!
Kasadoll: ・・・やはり、お前らか (Well, well, look what the cat dragged in.)
*pan to reveal Elc, Shante, Lieza, Tosh and Poco coming in*
Nam: ・・コ・ロ・シ・テ・ヤ・ル! (I... I'll make you wish you were never born...!!)

These patches to change the gameplay back to how the original developers intended is a good thing. But I have to say this: The Cutting Room Floor is not your own personal blog to attack Working Designs and call them names. (seriously "Wrecking Designs"?) The Vay page is a perfect example of this, having a entire paragraph that has some quotes from the manual despite it not being needed at all.

I'm sorry but are you a mod there? Unless Xkeeper or one of the other mods has issues, I think it's fine. And if they did they certainly would try to contact Supper privately instead of publically in the middle of an unrelated forum.

Working Designs deserves the Wrecking Designs nickname imo lol

anyway im off to oppress victor ireland have fun
Bara, anciently spelt Baro, is an agricultural parish in East Lothian, Scotland, which adjoins the parish of Garvald to the east, and Lauder across the Lammermuir Hills. It is south-west of Haddington.