Tengai Makyou Zero translation project

[Merr Man]

Well SamIAm has said that he definitely wants to do the translation, so hopefully you'll see it, someday.

My regards to SamIAm, AnEarth sounds pretty unique, especially for its time, so I'll be waiting.

Tom:

I absolutely loved it, the first time I discovered this site, especially because it is very difficult to keep up with all of the projects, and the individual translation sites don't get updated that often, but the real meat is in this forum. Just a question, do you know how well Kabuki Klash did do outside of Japan? It would be cool for a Youtuber to talk about the game in a "hidden gems" series (like "Roo" from "Clan of the Grey Wolf"), or even a RPGamer review. I am guessing that claiming it to be competitive with FFVI and Chrono Trigger, would get some curious people poking around.

I mean, the reason why I got curious was because, I'm a huge RPG fan (Can never be overstated), been this way for years and would just eat up any RPG in the console-based style, especially turn-based during the 16-bit and 32-bit eras, like some kind of a fanatic. To sort of reiterate, this is a series that I had heard about for a number of years , and I would constantly find out more and more about the games, would watch the videos and learn about how much love people had for it, but I was so disappointed to not see an entry, beside the fighting game, that could be played in English. I was an early member of the Gaijinworks Forums, around the time of the Class of Heroes KS, and learned about Vic's love for the PSP version of TM Apocalypse but it never went anywhere. So you can only imagine how much I am dying to play a game like this. While I appreciate the translation of Oriental Blue (my backlog is so full), it's not like getting a main series game as an English entry.

Travel27:

What is very interesting, to me, are some of the enemy sprites like this giant robot boss that I saw from an in-combat screenshot. There seemed to be a lot of detail when it came to the robot.

Here's hoping to a more active 2017 also!

[Tom]

Yeah, Travel27 and Merr Man, I think 2017 will be a good year for fan projects, but I have this haunting suspicion that the Mother 4 fan game will come out right about the same time as our patch for Tengai Makyou Zero, and I'm sure that would instantly kill off any hype for Zero.

In terms of legit releases, I'm looking forward to Dragon Quest XI, Project Octopath Traveler, and Cosmic Star Heroine. Who knows when those will come out, though.

I sincerely think that Tengai Makyou Zero will blow people away. This game didn't really stand a chance of having a legit English release back in the day, by the way. It would have needed substantial censorship. (You probably couldn't guess it from the screenshots, though...)

Of course, the version we'll release will be complete and uncut.

[Merr Man]

Tom:

I keep on forgetting about that, I don't even know if they said anything but that will probably be the big news story within the hardcore community, even if Nintendo tries to find a way to C & D it. I really think that Zero, like Burning Heroes and Silva Saga II, will be much more well known to a very small population, whether or not Mother 4 comes out, and I would hate for that to be the case, at least you aren't working for money when working on Zero, though it is very valuable. It's a blessing and a curse to delve into esoterica, especially if there may be a Region Locked episode, sometime in the future, going over the series.

I'm really, really looking forward to all of them also, really there are a lot of releases this year that I am interested in, I do wonder if we'll ever see DQ X ever get a localization for western audiences, it looks like the kind of game I would love to play, even if it is a MMO (I am a lot more of a loner kind of gamer). Project Octopath Traveler (any reference to the Buddhist "Eightfold path"?) really did intrigue me, and I am also interested in Xenoblade II, heard that the first was an absolute masterpiece.

Zero was also released in 1995, right? While, I've been curious as to why Secret of the Stars got localized, seems like an out-of-the-blue choice, it does seem like they probably thought that Zero, besides what you said about the censorship, may have also been too late to even get the censorship it may have needed in order to see a release in the west. I am very curious as to what had to be censored, and am glad that you aren't taking liberties with this game, thank you.

[KingMike]

"Why did Secret of the Stars get localized and not FEoEZ?"
That's a rather apples-to-oranges comparison, especially considering they're different companies involved.

Maybe Tecmo just felt the time was right to release an RPG and... that was they had. (the only other RPG I know they had was their canceled Tower of Radia translation, but the NES was dead by that point.)

[Merr Man]

"Why did Secret of the Stars get localized and not FEoEZ?"
That's a rather apples-to-oranges comparison, especially considering they're different companies involved.

Maybe Tecmo just felt the time was right to release an RPG and... that was they had. (the only other RPG I know they had was their canceled Tower of Radia translation, but the NES was dead by that point.)

I guess, to me, it can be very interesting as to what doesn't get localized and what does get localized, and Secret of the Stars, which I actually happen to really like, seems to be the RPG that, maybe, puzzles me the most. I apologize if it came out awkwardly.

[Tom]

I'll give you a sneak peek at what PH Chada, says in TM Zero's manual, since it relates to the topic, "Why wasn't this game released in English?"

Here is what they have written for PH Chada in the manual:

"Oh, how wonderful this is! Releasing Tengai Makyou on a Nintendo system was a no-brainer. And along the way, "Tengai Makyou" has developed into a whole new world. Dare I say it? Could this Tengai Makyou game be one day brought back to my own homeland? Could it become a game played all over the world? I'm looking forward to the day when it's turned into a Hollywood blockbuster film!"

While I can't make the second part of PH Chada's dream come true, I can at least make the first part of it happen!

Incidentally, Oriental Blue: Ao no Tengai has a dummied Hudson USA logo dummied away inside of it... But it goes to show you, there was always some level consideration going on there. People have passed around the 360 Ziria preliminary English screenshots as well, right? So many times, the series has fallen through the cracks, and now it's in Konami's graveyard.

[dejan07]

Yeah, Travel27 and Merr Man, I think 2017 will be a good year for fan projects, but I have this haunting suspicion that the Mother 4 fan game will come out right about the same time as our patch for Tengai Makyou Zero, and I'm sure that would instantly kill off any hype for Zero.

This means you need to finish it much faster. Don't eat, sleep or breed until it is finished! 

The tragedy of TM is the PC Engine failure in the US. If Ziria was first published on the Sega CD Working Designs would probably brought it to the US.  On the other hand one day when this series get translated i think it will be more appreciated since it took so long. I have never played Lufia 2 and i am thinking about trying it out but it doesn't excites me at all since it is sitting on my PC wherever i want it. Zero and Anearth Fanstasy Stories are beyond my grasp and i am fantasizing about playing them. Crazy!

By the way i have discovered another RPG from Red entertainment who are the makers of TM series but this game appears to be like a gaiden TM game. It is called Kabuki Rocks! but there is almost no information about it online. Have you ever heard of it?

[Merr Man]

Tom,

Mighty interesting coincidence! That quote from "P.H. Chada" would actually be a lot funnier if it was next to the photo "representation" (Karl Marx, really) of him.

You could fill a book with games that had, had localization considerations, in fact I am very curious about Shinseki Odysselya, a Super Famicom JRPG, which had a completed localization as "Lost Mission" for presumed western release, but that was scrapped. I also remember that the XBox 360 had a bunch of JRPGs localized into English, would've been very nice to include a new TM game along with them, but Gaijinworks (that name again) blamed Microsoft for not being able to do it. Maybe we'll see a localization, someday, from Gw when it comes to that series. Speaking of Konami RPGs, I am a little bit bitter that their last Suikoden game was never localized, I loved the first two Suikoden games.

Here's the latest piece of news, from 2013, that I could find about Konami and TM: http://www.siliconera.com/2013/09/20/konami-licensing-hudson-ips-like-far-east-of-eden-to-other-companies/, but that is for a game that came out in 2014 I guess, well at least there are plenty of games to play before someone may actually do something beneficial for the series.

dejan,

As a big fan of Working Designs ( based on Alundra, and the PS1 Lunar games), and knowing their interest in the series, you would've probably been right, though they did do some PC-Engine work (I think that it was for the Exile games).

You have to play Lufia II, it is a fantastic game. It's got a lot of pathos, fantastic puzzles, the IP meter which sort of serves as a predecessor to the limit break moves in FFVII (besides stuff like the desperation moves in FFVI), I don't have enough good things to say about it, it also doesn't truly drag, plus I love the Sinistrals and fighting them. As per last point in paragraph, this is the world we live in being able to play all kinds of games, even unfinished releases, and homebrews with or without the English tongue.

I saw Kabuki Rocks! also before. Wow, Hardcore Gaming 101 doesn't even mention it, even in the spin-offs section.

[Tom]

I hadn't heard of Kabuki Rocks before, but it certainly has the Tengai series feel. Although Red collaborated on it, this was an Atlus title in the end, and I think that's why it's not considered a Tengai game.

This is much like why Granzella does not consider Kyoei Toshi to be related to Zettai Zetsumei Toshi, even though it looks a lot like ZZT. Kyoei Toshi is a Bandai Namco series, in the end.

Also, when you say "Kabuki" to a Tengai fan, they think of Danjuro first and foremost, not whoever this guy is. Looks really good, though!

I'm gonna keep an eye out for it!

[Hiei-]

From Doug :

The Turtle Nation is almost done



From DDS :

Added labels and text for shops' Sell menu.



Starting work on the Strategy screen. Added the graphics done by FlashPV and @Doug_RPG for the 4 Plans and combat commands.



Finished implementing Strategy commands and displaying them in combat. Getting very close to the end of my to-do list for this game now.



Added labels for the inn menu



Reworked the pet naming screen for the Hatchery. Letters should match appropriately.

[Cargodin]

Dare I say it? Could this Tengai Makyou game be one day brought back to my own homeland? Could it become a game played all over the world?

I'm excited that it's likely you and the team will finally be able to see that happen. Fantastic progress all around! As a bystander, the thread has been a blast to peek in and see what you all have been up to pretty much daily.

Tom, I didnt know that about the dummy files in Oriental Blue! The series does give off the vibes that it really wanted some western appeal back in the day. I was under the impression that that's ultimately why Apocalypse IV came into being with a fresh story as things really sort of died down after that.

Originally, I was convinced they were going to make Kabuki the Lupin III of jrpgs by making him star in an American wild west fiasco, what with London in FKD and the drama cd. I've also seen concept sketches of Kabuki in cowboy wear as well. Im imagining there was, eventually, a desire to have fresh characters and introductions of the Fire Clan for western audiences and that meant nixing the Far East of Eden label altogether to make it more beginner-friendly.  Im wondering whether they sacrificed that totally viable direction with the series in the name of expanding the series' player base(which obviously never did work out).

If I can find the scans of the cowboy sketches, I'll throw them up here or something, as they are what I think ultimately turned into Ace in the final game and make for good food for thought. Plus, they're cute.

[Tom]

I originally wanted Kingcom to restore the dummied USA logo for the English patch, but for whatever reason, he said that he couldn't do it.

I don't know if nixing the Far East of Eden label was done to appeal to foreigners, though. To most foreigners, "Far East of Eden" seems more palatable than Tengai Makyou, words that by and large, people wouldn't know how to pronounce, much less define. Then again, Suikoden did well enough, so maybe it would have been a good strategy... aiming for the "Japanese cool" vibe.

We'll never know.

If it's true that Konami is open to letting other companies access the Tengai Makyou IP, maybe there's hope! People have got to get some sort of kickstarter going, pronto... No, wait... Since nobody knows about the series yet, it'll make zero money. Well, it's up to us to get the series some more notoriety first!

Status update:

I beat the game in English for the second time over the weekend while re-formatting the script... Formatting is largely done for all major scenes and general NPCs. Optional stuff like tea houses, gift-giving, and festivals is still unchecked. I'm also going to experiment with changing the item acquisition text so that it all fits in one line. It might break some formatting in a few spots, so it'll need another playthrough to make sure everything works well.

I'll be playing in "Restart+" mode this time, so it should be easier.

[Cargodin]

I originally wanted Kingcom to restore the dummied USA logo for the English patch, but for whatever reason, he said that he couldn't do it.

I don't know if nixing the Far East of Eden label was done to appeal to foreigners, though. To most foreigners, "Far East of Eden" seems more palatable than Tengai Makyou, words that by and large, people wouldn't know how to pronounce, much less define. Then again, Suikoden did well enough, so maybe it would have been a good strategy... aiming for the "Japanese cool" vibe.

We'll never know.

If it's true that Konami is open to letting other companies access the Tengai Makyou IP, maybe there's hope! People have got to get some sort of kickstarter going, pronto... No, wait... Since nobody knows about the series yet, it'll make zero money. Well, it's up to us to get the series some more notoriety first!

Sometimes technical difficulties like that do get in the way. I don't know enough about Gameboy files to really say. It's just very intriguing that it exists, nevertheless.


Fortunately, another twitter happened to upload it recently, so I did find the one scan in question. It's small and probably won't serve much for other fans in the thread, but it's a cool post nevertheless:


https://twitter.com/Kazutaka1222/status/825295897152024578

The page may just be more teasing and Kabuki Den 2 BS above much else and the scan's pretty small, but do note the vest/page title.

I wasn't speaking entirely on the FEoE monicker per se, simply the pressure of having to release a game tied so tightly to an ongoing series. Releasing a "miniseries"(i.e. FKD2) from within a series(Ziria, Manjimaru, FKD respectively) would probably turn off someone, whether a fan or a higher-up, somewhere.

Who knows, maybe it was too close to "East of Eden" to go under the radar trademark-wise and the FEOE title could have had to be dropped anyway. Maybe they'd have to go with "Kabuki Trails" or something. Even if it wasn't for Western appeal, I imagine there was pressure to release something like that when there was no right way to port the original PCe games in the first place.

Great news on the update! I'm excited!!

[VicVergil]

When it comes to Manjimaru, there's only one answer as to which version should be translated. The PC Engine original. It's the only uncensored release. Even the PC Engine PSN port was censored. They rendered the Kinu's rage scene nearly nonsensical, when it used to be shocking. It is relatively tame in every re-release.

Whatever questions you have, feel free to ask. I'm making progress with the game every day, regardless of these posts. They're not taking time away from the game.

Just a heads up, for that particular scene, the gory animated cuts are stored frame by frame on the DS version, easily editable (you can even have more colors than the PC Engine version).
And in fact, they even left most of the uncensored alternates on the cartridge!
I could cook up a patch for the DS game restoring it to its former glory if I had a save from that part.

The only thing that would be missing is the horizontal flying motion for that severed limb (I'd have a static frame instead like animes do in their "To Be Continued" frames, though a horizontal movement isn't frankly that big of a loss) and that cutscene being shorter than the PC-E counterpart.

Some eye candy from the DS version (heavy end-game spoilers, of course!)

Spoiler

And those two only have the censored frame, but adding back the missing gore is trivial:


IMO, even with all the cuts, what did make it to the DS cutscene is still hardcore compared to the others. The one that really doesn't make any sense is the PS2 animated one. Or even worse, the Pachinko version.

[close]

Of course, this goes for other cutscenes and graphics. That water palace queen could also have her... assets restored to her former glory as well. The green/pink blood could be restored to its original color, same for the title screen logos if you so desire...

The numerous text cuts could be reverted by comparing both text dumps (PCE and DS both uncompressed and Shift-JIS) and spotting the differences. That aside, I prefer the DS version, if only for the more flexible and moddable nature of that version, the music, and the cutscenes being subbed instead of VA only.

But the problem with the DS version is that the text display routine would have to be redone from scratch. As it is currently, it uses a (very ugly) font stored not in 2BPP, not in 4BPP, but in bitmap format. And all text onscreen for both subscreens is drawn at once. Hard to edit font, horrendous implementation of bold font, and ridiculous length limitations.

Also, said audio only cutscenes have their subs hardcoded into the overlays. There's the first lines from various unrelated cutscenes jumbled together, then a bit far there's the second lines... you get the idea.
Unlike PC-Engine version, no ascii support. All text is 2-byte characters.

Other than that, it's very possible:

Spoiler

[close]

[Tom]

You're already working on Manjimaru? 

Mainly, I think PC Engine should be prioritized because it can be played on the PC Engine and on the PSP collection. I think a PSP hacker should look into the PSP collection to see how feasible adding subtitles is there, because a fully uncensored original version can easily be put back into it, from what I hear.

Making a solution for that is going to have to happen anyway, if people ever want to play Fuun Kabukiden with subtitles.

What I would like done is to translate the PC Engine version, and if it truly is not possible to add subs to the voice acted scenes, then possibly add them through the PSP somehow... Then carry over all of that work to the DS after the fact, instead of making the DS the lead platform for the translation.

This would make the entire series playable in English, rather than just Manjimaru. (Well, Ziria will be easily done, anyway.)

As for undoing the censorship: So, it'd have no flying limb... And what about the whole grabbing the vest instead of grabbing the throat bit?

[Cargodin]

You're already working on Manjimaru? 

Mainly, I think PC Engine should be prioritized because it can be played on the PC Engine and on the PSP collection. I think a PSP hacker should look into the PSP collection to see how feasible adding subtitles is there, because a fully uncensored original version can easily be put back into it, from what I hear.

Making a solution for that is going to have to happen anyway, if people ever want to play Fuun Kabukiden with subtitles.

What I would like done is to translate the PC Engine version, and if it truly is not possible to add subs to the voice acted scenes, then possibly add them through the PSP somehow... Then carry over all of that work to the DS after the fact, instead of making the DS the lead platform for the translation.

This would make the entire series playable in English, rather than just Manjimaru. (Well, Ziria will be easily done, anyway.)

As for undoing the censorship: So, it'd have no flying limb... And what about the whole grabbing the vest instead of grabbing the throat bit?

I've spoken with Ghanmi on his work on the DS version before, and have peeked once upon a time into the scripts myself. (This was before you were present again and it was purely for the sake of identification.) They're very haphazardly unorganized to the tune of 1250 folders? Each may/may not have text files in an odd format therein, so one might have an entire room's dialogue while the other may have simply, "Manjimaru stepped on a mine." Some have nothing at all, so it's really not fun unless a visual editor is utilized. If he did that in tinke or...I forget what the tools are all called, it's simply an effective proof of concept.

The text could definitely use some work, but if the censored scene can really be re-implemented somehow, that's a great start to patching that version of the game as well.

[VicVergil]

Nope, just proof of concept screenshots.
For the reasons I mentioned (text routine massive hack needed), a translation is beyond what I can do, until I learn DS ASM. As you see from the very compromised translations, what I can do for now is just not enough and would be a disservice to a game of this pedigree.

PSP/PSN version is actually the emulated PCE version. The changes are pre-patched on the ISO itself. I think some Japanese modders would swap the ISOs in the Galaxy Fraulein / Tengai Makyou Collection with other PCE games and they'd work (including the unaltered Manjimaru II 1992 dump, which must be what you heard about uncensoring the PSP release).

More to the point, this means any technical hurdles for the PCE version will be still there for its emulated re-releases (PSP, PS3 PSN).
The PC Engine has a functional ready-to-use English 8px font used whenever you use ascii characters in the script (like Lunar and other games from the era. And unlike the DS version.) BUT, the PC Engine has a limited number of background layers already extensively used in the animated cutscenes, and as such even adding 8x8 subtitles in any acceptable fashion is next to impossible.

DS version is a port using native hardware. This means:
- replacing all graphics with one with a bigger color palette than the PCE one (and you have 16/256 colors for each single graphic, each with its own palette) is very possible. Of course, uncensoring the game is.
- replacing the low quality audio with versions from the PCE/PS2 versions is possible
- there's subtitles for the cutscenes
- more possibilities for reprogramming the game since the hardware is more powerful

Another thing of note, there's some kanjis off from the Shift-JIS standard, just a handful though. A French translator that used to work on this version compiled them.

I think the Xanadu translations are going with a fan-dub for the voiced cutscenes because they just couldn't fit coding for subs.
In Manjimaru's case (and more worryingly, Kabuki Fuu Den since it's not ported anywhere aside from official emulation) it's definitely going to be a headache and the translations probably compromised (especially if lines span multiple cuts of animation, or when there's a lot going onscreen). 

As for undoing the censorship: So, it'd have no flying limb... And what about the whole grabbing the vest instead of grabbing the throat bit?

The limb will be there with the cut sections and flying gibs of blood and all, it will be just frozen in place.

And the throat grabbing was never cut from the DS version to begin with (you might be thinking of the PS2 version). The cuts were apparently done relatively late in development, and were more concerned with hiding dismemberment than anything else. And in other parts of the game, juvenile alcohol drinking. And mocking Mario and Adol. And of course, lots of manjis.

[Tom]

I realize that the PSP is emulating the PC Engine code, so it's still subject to those limitations but there's other "PSP mechanics" in the background... For instance, you can tab between bordered, stretched, or fullscreen modes. You have an animated border encircling the window. There are extra little things the PSP is doing behind the scenes, and it's quite versatile in that respect.

What if a hacker could alter the PSP's coding to show a text overlay when a line of audio is called up in the game? That's the sort of fix I was thinking might be possible... Using the PSP to do what the PC Engine itself doesn't.

It seems lately, Japan has taken a much harsher stance on dismemberment in games. The Last of Us is rated Z in Japan, but despite that, the scene where a zombie gets its head chopped off was censored so that the zombie just collapses after being hit in the head. The Evil Within shipped censored, and then had day one DLC to put dismemberment back in... They must have had to exploit some loophole about DLC content being subject to different rules.

I think at one point, somebody sent me that script of Manjimaru with the various folders... It looked like somebody had translated a few of the lines, too. There were files with graphics included at some parts. It looked like they extracted images of the villagers, or something. I think Esperknight showed it to me. Oh, yeah. I actually have the folder on this computer. Looks like it's from 2012. It's HTML. That must be what stopped me from actually working on it.

[Cargodin]

I think at one point, somebody sent me that script of Manjimaru with the various folders... It looked like somebody had translated a few of the lines, too. There were files with graphics included at some parts. It looked like they extracted images of the villagers, or something. I think Esperknight showed it to me. Oh, yeah. I actually have the folder on this computer. Looks like it's from 2012. It's HTML. That must be what stopped me from actually working on it.

I think we both have that document. The original site is here http://www.geocities.jp/mja_652/game/pce/tengai2.html. You probably already know of this one, but there's another site that has the scripts as well over here: http://www.reilou.sakura.ne.jp/tengai/jipang/index.shtml

I originally used the scrapbook app in Firefox to rip the pages from the very site before,  so I already had a head start on it before Esperknight ever mentioned it to me(as scrapbook allows you to edit it as plaintext right into the file). I've poked at a few major scenes and such, but gameplay-wise, I only really got to Benten's tower before focusing on one of my actual projects. I was needing to replay the game anyway.

As for dismembership, apparently the Japanese version of Until Dawn completely blacked out a character's dismemberment scene back and forth while still retaining the audio and other camera angles, so the outcome came out rather jarring to look at for the wrong reasons.

[VicVergil]

Soft subtitles, eh? Talk about thinking out of the box. That's a really nice idea. And not only for the PSP version, but even the vanilla PCE one (well, if it's emulated).

Back when Zerogair (PC-FX) was being translated, when no one could think the lead programmer could pull off the feat of actually re-encoding parts of the MPEG FMV to have subtitles added, I think the emulator developer behind mednafen offered to add support for soft subtitles just for this kind of situations.
If both PCE Xanadu games and this were being worked on, it could generate enough interest for this feature to be incorporated in that emulator and the soft subs called whenever specific bits of audio are being read off the disk. It's time all those fancy HUD in emulators are put to better use than just chat.

About the CERO thing.
Dunno if you're aware of that, but the PSP version of TM IV was affected much more than this one. Just one example out of many is some of the final rooms in the game full of more and more blood and human skulls with eerie humming in the background as you advance, but conspicuously empty and silent in the PSP version. It was released at the same time as TM II DS, and it seems there was some turmoil over CERO around 2006, with Riviera being more toned down in sexual content than its US version (a first), and even Itoi citing pressure about keeping that CERO A rating when developing Mother 3.

And one more thing Tom, I hope this might be of some use to you (at least for testing the festivals). Put it wherever snes9x or your emulator of choice stores the saves (should throw an RTC error, but otherwise boots fine).  I wanted to send this your way earlier, but sadly lost my notes regarding it - this is just what I cobbled up together quickly today, but expect more detailed info (notably, the addresses that need to be changed) later. I found 4 such rooms but this is the most interesting one. You could also warp to any other room in the game, provided you also modified other X/Y PC coordinate info to avoid spawning stuck in the scenery - I had made a big list earlier but sadly... :/

As for membership, apparently the Japanese version completely blacked out a character's dismemberment scene back and forth while still retaining the audio and other camera angles, so the outcome came out rather jarring to look at for the wrong reasons.

Fubuki? Or the mother's doppleganger?