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Author Topic: Final Fantasy VI: Improvement or Relocalization?  (Read 5998 times)

TRIFORCE89

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Final Fantasy VI: Improvement or Relocalization?
« on: July 03, 2016, 08:00:57 pm »
Was thinking about playing the SNES version of the game recently, and knew about the Relocalization project here on RHDN https://sites.google.com/site/ff6relocalized/ http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/2247/

Did some googling, and came across the Improvement project as well - which doesn't appear to be listed on the site here https://sites.google.com/site/shadedmagus/home/projects/ff6-improvement

They look to have similar goals and approaches. I was curious if one is preferred over the other?

Axiphel

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Improvement or Relocalization?
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2016, 08:26:49 pm »
I guess it would depend on if you want the original SNES translation or the Relocalized version.

Chronosplit

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Improvement or Relocalization?
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2016, 09:20:25 pm »
Last I heard Improvement was majorly bugged due to some more recent updates. You want Relocalization from those picks.

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I guess it would depend on if you want the original SNES translation or the Relocalized version.
Both have new translations.  If you're wanting something more akin to the original you want Ted Woolsey Uncensored.

Axiphel

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Improvement or Relocalization?
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2016, 09:40:40 pm »
Last I heard Improvement was majorly bugged due to some more recent updates. You want Relocalization from those picks.
Both have new translations.  If you're wanting something more akin to the original you want Ted Woolsey Uncensored.

The translation in Improvement is optional... Or so it says.

Chronosplit

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Improvement or Relocalization?
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2016, 10:56:44 pm »
The translation in Improvement is optional... Or so it says.
Ah, you're right!  It's been a long time since I used it due to the last version coming out three years ago, sorry about that.

Though really, there's a patch that contains all of the bugfixes ever made with no translation fixes.  That one would probably be the same as Improvement but better without the translation.  Relocalization Project contains most of the fixes that exist with some minor tweaks and much improved text though, I think it's a nice tradeoff.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2016, 10:23:59 am by Chronosplit »

Bregalad

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Improvement or Relocalization?
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2016, 02:20:26 pm »
I feel like it's at least the 15th time this subject comes up.

Chronosplit

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Improvement or Relocalization?
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2016, 05:58:03 pm »
Not just here, the Internet as a whole always wants to know what version of FF to go with.  Thank Square-Enix's penchant for odd ports/remakes I guess.

TRIFORCE89

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Improvement or Relocalization?
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2016, 07:21:46 pm »
Thanks for the information!

Relocalization patch it is then :thumbsup:

Chaos Rush

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Improvement or Relocalization?
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2016, 02:31:47 pm »
I feel like it's at least the 15th time this subject comes up.
idk man, because I've heard that FFVI is apparently one of the greatest RPG's of all time, so I think it's fair that people want to know which is the best version to play.

No but seriously, I've never played FFVI; which version should I play? Relocalized, Improvement, Ted Woolsey Uncensored Edition, or the GBA version with color + sound patches?
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Bregalad

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Improvement or Relocalization?
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2016, 03:45:24 pm »
I'd say for an original experience you'd want to play the original, possibly with some improvement/uncensor hacks (it's really up to you - changing two lines in the game won't really change the whole experience).

GBA version patched isn't bad, but it's still not the original experience, and the screen size is reduced which altered the game and introduced some bugs.

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idk man, because I've heard that FFVI is apparently one of the greatest RPG's of all time,
This is so subjective but I don't feel FF6 is any greater than any of the other FF games - although it is still great of course. The story is extremely cliched "good guys against evil empire" and "emperor's sidekicks is actually more evil than the empreror himself", and the battle system is relatively plain/generic. Nevertheless, still a great game :)

Chronosplit

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Improvement or Relocalization?
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2016, 05:35:41 pm »
No but seriously, I've never played FFVI; which version should I play? Relocalized, Improvement, Ted Woolsey Uncensored Edition, or the GBA version with color + sound patches?
A wide amount of choices, none of them are wrong.  Here's a somewhat detailed comparison:

-Relocalization has the most fixes of the big SNES translation projects, barring only a patch with all the bugfixes in one for the most from what I've seen.  It's translation leans heavily on the GBA side of things, but fixes what went wrong using all known sources of text, and it tries to make sure everyone has the biggest voice possible.  There's also a couple of QoL tweaks like faster Cyan meter and other low-key things.  Font could be better, but it's better than you'd think in motion.

-Ted Woolsey Uncensored is the one you want if you're interested in playing the SNES original but without the bull.  It's bugfixes are minimal to only the most crushing/stupid of bugs, and the translation remains faithful to the original one shipped to the US with all the screwups and problems in the script fixed.  Names have also been updated.  That's not to say little work was put into it, quite the opposite in fact because all available sources were used and the uncensoring goes to the same level as Relocalized.   Great pains were put into making the best possible version of this project's intent, even fixing the original font.  This is basically akin to source ports that try to keep things close to the original experience as possible, like DXX-Rebirth or Chocolate Doom (if you've ever played these).

-GBA is the only place where you're going to see the big new Postgame stuff and new Magicite.  However you'll have to patch the heck out of it; it's censored in one point all other versions aren't, the colors are brightened to max (this is a worse problem than on IV and V, as atmosphere is really important in VI), the music is awful at some points, and it slows down a great deal (poor thing probably should've been on DS like Chrono Trigger, oh well).  All patches try their hardest, but there's still spots sometimes where the lesser quality port bleeds through.  The translation is improved though some will argue.  And as mentioned before, the new screen size will kind of mess with things.  Postgame isn't bad if you grind enough though, and the "Odin has speed but Raiden doesn't" thing is solved by adding a Cactuar Magicite (the other choices just give Raiden speed).  Also Leviathan is awesome no matter where it is.  TOSE tried, but the GBA just wasn't enough in the end.

Just don't play Mobile.  PC maybe with mods, but even though I liked V's mobile port I hated VI.  It's the GBA release in every way but graphics and UI anyhow.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2016, 01:08:38 am by Chronosplit »

Axiphel

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Improvement or Relocalization?
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2016, 09:47:47 pm »
It's the GBA release in every way but graphics and UI anyhow.

And way better sound.

Chronosplit

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Improvement or Relocalization?
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2016, 10:09:22 pm »
And way better sound.
Oh yeah, I had forgotten to mention that they restored the original soundtrack too (and only the soundtrack; a lot of sounds still use the GBA version's).  Another difference is that Cyan can charge while you input other actions.  If it's worth it or not is up to personal preference, but I'd still take PC over mobile for the modability and lack of "always online" DRM in that case.

EDIT: I've read that it uses the PS1 sound quality instead of SNES.  Not sure if this is an issue or not, but same source also lied about the Celes beating scene on mobile so take it with a grain of salt.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2016, 12:10:24 pm by Chronosplit »

Heaven Piercing Man

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Improvement or Relocalization?
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2016, 10:45:35 pm »
I wrote a relocalization long ago, but never finished the ROM because I ran into a problem when trying to restore the original title screen and extend the menu text. But so far it looks like the TW Uncensored has the framework I was trying to achieve. I guess I'll make an addendum to said hack once it's finished, but I'll have to proofread the localization because since then I have learned more, the kwhazit translation was completed, and I gotta take out the memes I had put in.

Axiphel

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Improvement or Relocalization?
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2016, 04:17:42 am »
Oh yeah, I had forgotten to mention that they restored the original soundtrack too (and only the soundtrack; a lot of sounds still use the GBA version's).  Another difference is that Cyan can charge while you input other actions.  If it's worth it or not is up to personal preference, but I'd still take PC over mobile for the modability and lack of "always online" DRM in that case.

EDIT: I've read that it uses the PS1 sound quality instead of SNES.  Not sure if this is an issue or not, but same source also lied about the Celes beating scene on mobile so take it with a grain of salt.

The steam version definitely has away better sound than the PSX version.

Chronosplit

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Improvement or Relocalization?
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2016, 03:20:22 pm »
The steam version definitely has away better sound than the PSX version.
Yeah I'm not really sure where they got that idea from, after listening to the mobile version for a bit.  The newest ones use the GBA sounds but the SNES music for sure.  I don't know why Square would go and put in PS1 music when they can just throw in the SNES tracks lol.

Good ol' Internet second hand info sometimes.  ::)

KingMike

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Improvement or Relocalization?
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2016, 01:31:38 am »
PS1 sound? :o
I only remember from Chrono Trigger, but wasn't Square's SPC emulation on the PS1 on par with ZSNES 0.9xx or whatever (extremely terrible. I mean, seriously like some of the SAME deficiencies?)
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STARWIN

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Improvement or Relocalization?
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2016, 07:17:59 am »
idk man, because I've heard that FFVI is apparently one of the greatest RPG's of all time, so I think it's fair that people want to know which is the best version to play.

No but seriously, I've never played FFVI; which version should I play? Relocalized, Improvement, Ted Woolsey Uncensored Edition, or the GBA version with color + sound patches?

I have played through the original a few times without any hacks and I can say there wasn't a single issue I actually noticed (or identified as an issue).

As far as game quality goes, there isn't a better FF game, some equals perhaps.

Bregalad

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Re: Final Fantasy VI: Improvement or Relocalization?
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2016, 01:21:28 pm »
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I don't know why Square would go and put in PS1 music when they can just throw in the SNES tracks lol.
For a lot of reasons. 1st, the SNES tracks are stored as AKAO bytecode that is very obscure and low-level format. Also it was developed by Square proper.

PS1 ports were developed by TOSE and Square probably didn't get involved at all. They used Sony's standard sound drivers which is basically MIDI compatible.

I was able to convert FF4/5/6 tracks to MIDI but this was a hassle, trust me, and the conversion was quite lossy for some songs. For instance, pitch slides are just a few bytecode commands in the original SNES version, but hast to be done with a combination of RPN and pitch wheels on MIDI, and you have to issue regularly increasing or decreasing pitch wheels. The pitch however how it is controlled by the SNES is not linear (the sound driver would just interpolate the values written to the register), so this effect is extremely tough to replicate exactly. We can get an approximation that 90% of listeners won't even notice, but still ^^

For sound effects it's even worse. The SNES versions constantly relies on hardware effects like noise and pitch modulation, which no other machine than the S-DSP (or an emulated S-DSP) can replicate exactly. They very often do pitch with crazy values (like pitch up 100 octaves) and rely on overflow behaviour to get some effects done. Belive me, approximating this to MIDI is pure nightmare, and converting it "properly" simply wouldn't be possible. Converting such sound effects to MIDI is a bit like if you wanted to rewrite horrible chunky self-modifying 6502 code into any high-level programming language, and expect it to look nice.

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but wasn't Square's SPC emulation on the PS1 on par with ZSNES 0.9xx or whatever (extremely terrible. I mean, seriously like some of the SAME deficiencies?)
First, as I said, none of the PS1 ports were ever developped by Square, but by TOSE. They definitely didn't emulate the SPC or not even the S-DSP (the part of the SPC700 which actually produces sound), there's no need to do that - just using the same sound samples is enough to get a similar sounding result.

They probably ran into the same problem as I did for the GBA conversions, in addition to what is mentioned above, the sound engine updates at 60/50Hz only and not at 220Hz like they do on the SPC700. For sound effects they went the lazy route and just used recordings. It's quite possible they used ZSNES to create such recordings.