Zelda3 Project, Oracle and Awakening Remakes

[demonik420]

Hey All,

let me preface this by saying that I only mention my schooling in the hopes that people will take my proposal seriously and not as just some fan project request:

I'm currently a student enrolled in a 4 year game development course and in my 3rd year.  I have now years of experience with various coding languages, especially C# and C++ and game engines, as well as programs like Max, mud box, and also "spriteing?" and animation programs.  I consider coding to be my passion but I also enjoy for lack of a better term "level design".

I have recently grown interested in attempting a remake of game boy color Zelda games.  Namely the Oracle Series and Link's Awakening in the Link to the Past engine.  I have thsi strong desire to see that entire series (as they all star the same link) be better tied together as sequels and all in the same game engine.  In Addition, when recently playing through those games I could see how well teh assets would fit into certain areas, and  I don't forsee very many art changes even being nessisary, especially when it comes to the environment and dungeons.  I have spent a week or so fooling around with Hyrule Magic, and thankfully just found a great tutorial on the subject.  If I were to tackle this project I would start with Oracle of Seasons.. and maybe never go further who really knows.  Regardless it would require some things I have yet to learn such as using Dark World Enemies in the Light world, changing of items, and likely a butt load of ASM hacking to really do it justice.

Basically I am just curious to hear from anyone who has used Hyrule Magic before weather they think it's a viable goal using the program, or weather I should look elsewhere at programs like Solaris.  I tend to lean away from that method as Solaris is slow and I would MUCH rather create an actual ROM hack that can be played on a SNES or emulated.  This of course is the best was to create a game with the same feel as I have yet to see a program that truly emulates the feel of the real game.  I would be more than willing to go through a tougher development cycle to get an authentic feeling recreation of at least one fo these games in the ALTTP engine.

So,  Is this project something you think is feasible to do in Hyrule Magic?

Also, keep in mind If I got forward with this I will undoubtedly need help.  Any resources that can be linked my way would be great, and I'm sure I'll eventually look for some help on the art side of things for a few changes that will have to be made.

Thanks in advance for any advice
Mark.

[vortex]

Yes, I've (tried) to use Hyrule Magic and I can tell you that it is extremely buggy and can quickly destroy your Rom, however there are experts on this board and on Alttp in general, which are able to overcome its buggy nature.

I also used Solaris, advice do not use this. Solaris games are "a poor copy" of the original, the engine can not match the one that Alttp Rom has. I would say definitely go for the editing of the Rom rather than Solaris, since that way it has a genuine fell of the original engine.

I know there is board for Alttp modding, I've come across it once and if I can remember correctly they "programed" some new items, like Roc's feather from other Zelda's etc.

However I think the Link's Awakening is your best bet, Oracle of Seasons, to bring in those season-effect in Alttp, I don't think this doable. I would go with Awakening, since this is much more compatible I believe. And I know for a fact that you can construct the game with only one overworld (thus skipping the dark world). I tried to go to Ganon from light world once and it worked.

Regarding the enemies of dark world in light world. This should be easy to do! Just insert sprites normally and put them on the correct gfx set (load correct gfx set for sprites in that area, should be only the number edit in HM for sprites and sprite palettes). I don't think the game even knows what a dark world sprite is, it should see all sprites the same.

[demonik420]

@Vortex

Thanks for the reply!,  ill take a look around and see what i can find as far as the modding community..  as far as the Oracle of Seasons and Ages, I was planning to use a modified tile set of the dark world for Ages.  In the case of seasons I want to use the dark world tile set to create Subrosa which would be perfect... so I had toyed with the idea of just having the areas permanently messed up and chose a season for each area to be stuck in, using some custom tiles in the light world set and have a greatly expanded Subrosa to make up for it.

The basic idea, especially with Seasons was to make a new game based on the story and ideas, make it more in line with ALTTP.  Another idea I was thinking of would be to combine the games just into a single game The Legend of Zelda Oracle of Enlightenment, referring to Links journey of enlightenment he takes between LTTP and Awakening.  Taking some of the best game play ideas and story elements from both games and making a more true Mid-quel for the series.  Having Link start in Hyrule directly following his quest in ALTTP as Zelda summons him to the castle to teleport him to Holodrum because Impa, who she sent there has not yet returned and she fears the worst.

BUT like you said Links awakening is probably a way better starting point, especially since its by far the best of the three games and is the more traditional of them as well.  With some story tweaking I could connect it better to both ALTTP and ALBW.

In any case I wasn't planning on a full 1:1 remake of any of the games.. Although for Links Awakening I wanted to stick as close as possible while updating some areas to be larger.  But things like using the shield with a button and the side scrolling segments I had planned to rework and replace with different puzzles. 

Any opinion from anyone on weather they woudl rather see a full 1:1 remake of Awakening if I can manage it or would you like to see a slightly reworked and expanded version (this one is my preference)?

[Midna]

If you were going to remake Link's Awakening, I'd want to see something along the lines of Pokemon ORAS. Similar enough to the original game to evoke nostalgia but different enough to both bring in new players and keep the older ones roped in.

[Jorpho]

Gee, I hadn't even heard of Solarus until now.  Is it actually playable?  So many people have proposed making Zelda-like engines without ever actually having anything to show for it, except for maybe Zelda Classic.  (I think there have been at least two major attempts at Ocarina of Time 2D.)

Suffice to say, if porting Ages/Seasons or Awakening into the Zelda III engine was even only a little difficult, someone probably would have done it by now.

[Vanya]

Seeing as they already have a handful of games that have been made that run on the engine, I'd say the answer to your question is yes.
I've got it sitting on my hard drive waiting for when I have the time to work on some projects I've been thinking of doing.

[demonik420]

Gee, I hadn't even heard of Solarus until now.  Is it actually playable?  So many people have proposed making Zelda-like engines without ever actually having anything to show for it, except for maybe Zelda Classic.  (I think there have been at least two major attempts at Ocarina of Time 2D.)

Suffice to say, if porting Ages/Seasons or Awakening into the Zelda III engine was even only a little difficult, someone probably would have done it by now.

I spent the entire last year of school heading up an 8 member development team to develop a game within a 16 week time span.  I have no delusions of porting these games as being easy xD.  My best suggestion would be to grab a rom of Zelda3.. grab the parallel worlds hack and patch it and play..  you will see the depth of how far a hack of Zelda3 can be taken with the help of a program like Hyrule magic.  Entirely new over world without any of the previous one intact in even a small portion.. all teh graphics of teh game replaced, completely new and unique dungeons with new tiles.  new items, new dialogue, tons of new enemy sprites.  Hyrule magic is by far the best bet for doing a faithful port of the Oracle games and especially Links Awakening in the Zelda3 engine.

To answer your question about Solaris.. unfortunately its pretty disappointing IMHO.  its great to have a Zelda3 pc engine and all.. but its slow, it really still pails in comparison to playing the actual game.  all the animations are pretty slow.  the movement and combat feel clunky in comparison.. even something as simple as picking up and throwing pots is noticeably slower and clunkier than  a real LTTP hack.

[Jorpho]

Yes, by all accounts Parallel Worlds is impressive, but it's kind of a singular achievement.  In all the years that Hyrule Magic has been available, the millions upon millions of die-hard Zelda have scarcely produced anything else like it, have they?  (And I doubt Parallel Worlds was made using Hyrule Magic alone.)

P.S. The other game is Solarus.

[SunGodPortal]

Yes, by all accounts Parallel Worlds is impressive, but it's kind of a singular achievement.  In all the years that Hyrule Magic has been available, the millions upon millions of die-hard Zelda have scarcely produced anything else like it, have they?

This hack is supposed to be out by the end of the year. By some of the same people that made PW.

In all the years that Hyrule Magic has been available, the millions upon millions of die-hard Zelda have scarcely produced anything else like it, have they?

It's difficult to remake an entire game of this scope when the only editor that will likely ever be available isn't finished and can't cope with many of the changes people may want to make or the path that they want to take to get there. That said, it isn't stopping me. LOL HM is a really good editor once you take a few months to figure out the wrong way to do everything so that you will know how to avoid destroying your ROM again and again.

Another factor is simply the complexity of the game. Most people just don't have the creativity and patience to create Zelda-style dungeons that require puzzles, traps and a specific sort of logic/development. Each room is also multiple layers thick and must be constructed a certain way in order to function as intended. It's much more involved than (for example) a 2D platforming level or a Final Fantasy/Dragon Quest style dungeon.

(And I doubt Parallel Worlds was made using Hyrule Magic alone.)

Hyrule Magic, a hex editor, a graphics editor, etc. Just basic stuff. HM handles most of it though.

[vortex]

To answer your question about Solaris.. unfortunately its pretty disappointing IMHO.  its great to have a Zelda3 pc engine and all.. but its slow, it really still pails in comparison to playing the actual game.  all the animations are pretty slow.  the movement and combat feel clunky in comparison.. even something as simple as picking up and throwing pots is noticeably slower and clunkier than  a real LTTP hack.

A+, +1

And I doubt Parallel Worlds was made using Hyrule Magic alone.

Exactly, gfx edits, ASM, ending credits, new Menu, new Hud etc etc can not be done with Hyrule Magic. I tried it once, but I could not edit the things mentioned above.

In all the years that Hyrule Magic has been available, the millions upon millions of die-hard Zelda have scarcely produced anything else like it, have they?

I believe this game also gets close (havent played further than the guardhouse, but have seen let's play videos)
http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/662/
but stil can not match with PW I believe. It is a solid number-2 in my oppinion though. And there is a company that actually made carts of both games. There is also a cart containing both of these hack on one cart. So if someone carted this, it was for a good reason.

In all the years that Hyrule Magic has been available, the millions upon millions of die-hard Zelda have scarcely produced anything else like it, have they?

I believe the Parallel Worlds team is also making the sequel Parallel Universes, which has Conker instead of Link. Or is it the Legend of Conker?

[Kallisto]

I'm not sure if it is possible or not since I'm not a expert, but could he simply delete the map-data, and stuff in ALTTP, and replace it with what he wants? Also is it possible to import the coding behavior of enemies from said games into it?  I don't think he has to worry about the sprites too much as most enemies have been remade by fans, and it is just a matter of finding them on the net.

If not that..how about that guy who made that Fan Trilogy? I'm not sure if he used his own engine or used something else. Speaking of which..those games are currently being remade in the Solarus Engine.

[Jorpho]

Another factor is simply the complexity of the game. Most people just don't have the creativity and patience to create Zelda-style dungeons that require puzzles, traps and a specific sort of logic/development. Each room is also multiple layers thick and must be constructed a certain way in order to function as intended. It's much more involved than (for example) a 2D platforming level or a Final Fantasy/Dragon Quest style dungeon.

Well, it hasn't stopped people from pumping out new Zelda Classic games.  (I have no idea if any of those are halfway decent; of course, they wouldn't have any fancy layering.)

[SunGodPortal]

I'm not sure if it is possible or not since I'm not a expert, but could he simply delete the map-data, and stuff in ALTTP, and replace it with what he wants?

ALttP cannot be wiped out and then used as a "template". It would cause HM to say that your ROM is corrupted, preventing you from doing anything with it. There is a good dealt that can be done with the game though.

EDIT: Here's some images to illustrate what I was talking about with the layering:



The first is the (empty) room template, the second is the entire room and the third is just the stuff on the second background layer. There are technically 3 layers (but it's mostly just doors that go on BG3). This room consists of about 40-50 individual pieces. All of the pieces must fit together a certain way (there are also layers within each BG layer) and must be placed on the proper BG layer to function properly. The items and sprites are the same. There are dozens of different door types. Some go from BG1 to BG1, BG1 to BG2, dungeon to overworld, etc... This game is probably way more complex than people think.
Good job Nintendo.

[demonik420]

I'm not sure if it is possible or not since I'm not a expert, but could he simply delete the map-data, and stuff in ALTTP, and replace it with what he wants? Also is it possible to import the coding behavior of enemies from said games into it?  I don't think he has to worry about the sprites too much as most enemies have been remade by fans, and it is just a matter of finding them on the net.

If not that..how about that guy who made that Fan Trilogy? I'm not sure if he used his own engine or used something else. Speaking of which..those games are currently being remade in the Solarus Engine.

ya unfortunately those are Solarus games, and will come with all teh problems that Solarus has that make it more of a stop gap hacked together PC engine thats a bit easier to use compared to Hyrule magic.  Also, if you've palyed the games I'm talkign about,  Every single enemy in them already has sprites in ALTTP... even most of teh bosses are similar.  But this is why I say it wouldn't be a true 1:1 remake, ASM scripting can only go so far in changing things.. porting in or writing new enemy AI may not even be possible atall and I don't plan to do it anyway as I said every enemy from all 3 of thsoe games has a corresponding counterpart in ALTTP, most of them are modeled after the ALTTP version.  and anything I might be forgettign can be replaced by an enemy already rpesent in ALTTP engine.

And yes, with Hyrule magic it will be possible to essentially delete the entire game and all it's dungeons and rebuild the world to match the Oracle games and Links Awakening.  Its even possible to remake the map to suit the games needs.  These are all things built right into Hyrule Magic.

As a last point to contest some of the points brought up here..  I never said I would be using Hyrule Magic exclusively, I will be looking at tools for editing sprites and a hex editor among other things.  Lastly, I have spent about 2 weeks now learning about Hyrule magic, the remakes I want to do are possible in the way I want to do them.  Links Awakening can practically be remade 1:1 with the exception of a few things here and there.

here is a project that may interest people.  Shows how far the look of the game can be changed, amoung other changes even down to altering the games opening completely.  Unfortunately nto playable but it gives an idea how far the editor can go as Paralell worlds is an incredible feat but still has the typical Zelda3 opening and such, this game does not.

http://www.questforcalatia.net/Zelda3C/index.html

In closing while it may be a lot easier to remake these titles in something like Solarus, I just find it unacceptable as an alternative.  It is to slow and lacks the correct feel,  If this project is to be undertaken at all I want to do it proper, not make concessions.  Hyrule Magic and other tools will allow a true conversion of these games into ALTTP engine, and make the series feel more complete and tied together.  Settling for something like Solarus will just make the games feel like cheap knockoffs and will yield a sub par set of remakes that aren't even as good as the original games they were ment to update.

[justin3009]

ASM can actually do about everything needed to do for those games, it's just a matter of taking the time to understand the engine enough to write your own code and set everything up properly.

[SunGodPortal]

And yes, with Hyrule magic it will be possible to essentially delete the entire game and all it's dungeons and rebuild the world to match the Oracle games and Links Awakening.

It depends on how literally you mean this. Yes, HM can clear rooms and things like that but since it isn't finished, you can't exactly use it that way and expect to come out the other side with a functioning ROM. If you tell it to remove everything from a room or use just about any of the "remove all" functions it will usually just screw things up because in most case it just rewrites a few pointers to where it looks like everything has been cleared. Then you go back and add stuff and the code gets all stuffed up. There's a limit to how much you can do at a time or how you can approach said changes. You gotta be really careful with HM.

[demonik420]

It depends on how literally you mean this. Yes, HM can clear rooms and things like that but since it isn't finished, you can't exactly use it that way and expect to come out the other side with a functioning ROM. If you tell it to remove everything from a room or use just about any of the "remove all" functions it will usually just screw things up because in most case it just rewrites a few pointers to where it looks like everything has been cleared. Then you go back and add stuff and the code gets all stuffed up. There's a limit to how much you can do at a time or how you can approach said changes. You gotta be really careful with HM.

ya i didnt mean all at once, i just meant that everything can be replaced bit by bit