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Author Topic: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...  (Read 17076 times)

Bregalad

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #60 on: May 22, 2016, 08:16:46 am »
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bad translations I saw are often for games with a few texts (NES games for example) that everyone can hack/translate.
Well they have to get started somewhere. One can't just directly make great hack/translations on the first try, so it's better to savage small games rather than making huge projects for large games that never ends up being anything near completed anyway.

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And, of course, if it's a translation made from english, the english one should be good or else it'll also impact the french translation. But I'm one of those who think it's better to translate a game from a good english translation rather than translating directly from japanese with some limited knowledge of the language.
That's probably what happened there. The old french version of CT was a great english-french translation based on the quite decent jap->english translation officially made back then. There is some alterations that were made to the game such as name changes and minor alcohol censorship, but honnestly this is fine and doesn't really change the game in any way.

The new version was just made by guys who are so fan of the japanese language that they left things over in japanese a little everyhwere - and the french is incorrectly spelled in a couple of places. They also made the choice to keep japanese names like "Kaeru" for frog, which makes no sense in French unless you studied in japanese. So they made lot of IMO poor choices that were fine in the first translation.

mz

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #61 on: May 22, 2016, 08:21:11 am »
They also made the choice to keep japanese names like "Kaeru" for frog, which makes no sense in French unless you studied in japanese.
How was he called in the previous French translation?
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Bregalad

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #62 on: May 22, 2016, 04:07:23 pm »
"Frog" which is just as foreign, but it doesn't sound nowhere as out of place, because French speaking people are much more likely to know what "frog" means in english than what "kaeru" means in Japanese.

The DS version uses "Gren" which is simultaneously an abbreviation of the french word "grenouille" and a deformation of "Glenn" the real name of this character, which is a great idea (even if it introduces a pun that wasn't here in the original game). But by the time the DS version was released, everyone already refered to this caracter to as "frog" because they played either the official English translation or the first fan translation.

mz

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #63 on: May 22, 2016, 06:44:23 pm »
So... Now not only you don't mind words that "make no sense in French", but you also prefer words that never even were in the original game in the first place, but were introduced by an arguably shitty translation...

It just shows how much in love you are with that translation and how biased your opinion is, in case that it wasn't clear enough already.
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ckrit

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #64 on: May 22, 2016, 07:24:15 pm »
You know, I was thinking of a good translation for his name that still carries some deeper meaning, but what about Croaker, as in someone who forebodes evil. I really can't remember his personality all that much, but it does kinda fit the story. (Unless I remember wrong of course.)

SunGodPortal

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #65 on: May 22, 2016, 08:41:53 pm »
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You know, I was thinking of a good translation for his name that still carries some deeper meaning, but what about Croaker, as in someone who forebodes evil. I really can't remember his personality all that much, but it does kinda fit the story. (Unless I remember wrong of course.)

If you're talking about the frog from Chrono Trigger, he was super serious and all about business/honor/protecting the throne. Even though his speech patterns remind me more of something European he very much reminds me of the serious samurai type that are in so many movies and stories.
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ckrit

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #66 on: May 22, 2016, 09:52:39 pm »
If you're talking about the frog from Chrono Trigger, he was super serious and all about business/honor/protecting the throne. Even though his speech patterns remind me more of something European he very much reminds me of the serious samurai type that are in so many movies and stories.

Actually, I was just going through the game a little, and his speech patterns are just really... normal. I have no idea why they decided to change this in the translation, but he's supposed to sound like a regular guy who was forced to be brave it seems. His friend Cyrus has that whole medieval thing going on, though. It's the first time I looked at the game in Japanese since I started learning Japanese many years ago, and it dumbfounds to see he's a completely different character originally.

SunGodPortal

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #67 on: May 22, 2016, 10:08:52 pm »
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Actually, I was just going through the game a little, and his speech patterns are just really... normal. I have no idea why they decided to change this in the translation, but he's supposed to sound like a regular guy who was forced to be brave it seems. His friend Cyrus has that whole medieval thing going on, though. It's the first time I looked at the game in Japanese since I started learning Japanese many years ago, and it dumbfounds to see he's a completely different character originally.

I believe it depends on the version you get. I think for the GBA version they toned down his ye olde English-isms. In the SNES version it's so thick that he is some times difficult to understand (at least he was the first time I played the game as a kid).
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Bregalad

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #68 on: May 23, 2016, 05:19:45 am »
[...] shitty translation[...]
[...]biased opinion[...]
Well, whathever. Being rude doesn't prove your point any better than if you'd do so politely.

And my point is, "-san" or "-sama" doesn't mean anything in neither English or French, and shouldn't be used by translators, period.

Finally if you do speak French then you're free to play the new translation and have your own opinion. If you don't then please just refrain from telling me which translation to prefer in a language you don't even speek.

justin3009

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #69 on: May 23, 2016, 03:51:52 pm »
When it comes to Chrono Trigger, the SNES and PS1 versions did the whole 'ye old English' thing but the DS translation completely removed that and made him more of what he's SUPPOSED to be.  Actually, didn't the DS version get a completely new translation?  Either way, I much prefer him without the old English style but it was a nice touch back then honestly.
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Midna

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #70 on: May 25, 2016, 09:45:49 pm »
Yeah, Chrono Trigger was completely retranslated for the DS, meaning Frog went from speaking entirely in Early Modern English to speaking in modern English with a somewhat formal tone. (Apparently Tom Slattery wanted to have everyone from the 600 AD period, not just Frog, speak in EME in the DS translation--meaning Magus would have talked like that, too--but he had to keep schedule.) It had the amusing side effect of the international marketing using a line from the SNES version that was translated differently on the DS, which caused the intended connection to be lost.

I'm actually starting to wonder if the "new French translation" Bregalad is talking about was based on the Chrono Compendium one, because that also has a load of untranslated Japanese honorifics and, IIRC, the "Kaeru" name.

Bregalad

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #71 on: May 26, 2016, 04:59:37 am »
meaning Magus would have talked like that, too
Errr... Magus is originally from -12000 BC

SunGodPortal

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #72 on: May 26, 2016, 05:04:46 am »
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Errr... Magus is originally from -12000 BC

Born around 12,000 BC, raised in 600 AD. :)
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GHANMI

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #73 on: June 04, 2016, 09:40:54 pm »
I believe it depends on the version you get. I think for the GBA version they toned down his ye olde English-isms. In the SNES version it's so thick that he is some times difficult to understand (at least he was the first time I played the game as a kid).

Someone familiar with the various French versions here. Just to get this out of the way:

This game was never released officially in French on SNES, Final Fantasy 6 was supposed to in 1994 but in the end ties between Nintendo and Square worsened and NoE only got Secret of Evermore in Multi-3, and had to get their JRPG fix from Enix and Natsume.
Due to the pathetic situation of SNES releases in Europe, everyone there would just import/pirate the English version, so everyone was familiar with that one.

In 2009, Chrono Trigger DS got a brand new French localization alongside its English retranslation by Slattery (a German and Spanish translation were supposed to be included too judging from internal graphics like "the future refused to change", but eventually they included those in the smartphone versions).

Much like people like to bash Slattery's stuff as "dry", "literal" and "awful" for not keeping the same corny changes as a certain previous translation, some French fans were declaring the French translation "incorrect" because it was done from Japanese and as such didn't have ANY of the English name changes. Some "incorrect" names include Slash Flea and Ozzie, now following the original Toriyama weird food-themed naming conventions Sauce Mayonnaise and Vinegar (slightly altered for easier pronunciation in French, I think it was Mayonay?), but also Kaeru who should have apparently been in English as Frog instead of Gren. Some even accused the French version of "spoiling the plot" or "lazily removing his alias name" and "on top of that not grasping the concept of proper L/R romanization".
It's like Final Fantasy X German controversy redux, where some people complained from the German translation being too accurate to the Japanese script to the point it doesn't match the very liberally-translated English audio (by the same translation branch credited for Squall and Zidane's drastic mood changes between the PAL/JP versions and the US/UK version).

I'm actually starting to wonder if the "new French translation" Bregalad is talking about was based on the Chrono Compendium one, because that also has a load of untranslated Japanese honorifics and, IIRC, the "Kaeru" name.

For what it's worth, the 2015 French fan-translation is apparently based on the JP ROM with VWF hacks made for it from scratch among other things. They're making one for Final Fantasy 6 too if I'm not mistaken. I'd say they were probably exposed to the Japanese text and had to have a basic idea of what each text means (considering CT's script is rife with unused lines in the JP version which aren't even there in the US one, and that throws off the count quite a bit if they were just comparing script dumps).
Not to say they couldn't have made some shortcuts using that Chrono Compendium version's script (btw, that ROM is based on the US version ROM), but the previous French fan-translation kept "Frog" in English so it's not like it's conclusive proof they're a fraud (if they used Magus instead of Maou or Demon King I wouldn't say necessarily the whole translation is based off Woosley's script either).

Bregalad

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #74 on: June 05, 2016, 02:19:16 pm »
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For what it's worth, the 2015 French fan-translation is apparently based on the JP ROM with VWF hacks made for it from scratch among other things.
It is based on the US ROM, but on the japanese script.

Magus is called "Maoh" which is I think a fine choice. Having frog as "Keru" is veird, considering most people aren't expected to know this means something in japanese. They could at least have francised it as "Kaƫl" if they really wanted to keep the original name.

Kallisto

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #75 on: June 08, 2016, 07:57:23 am »
If I recall...most of today's European languages have Germanic language as the parent since the languages are quite similar to old Germanic.

Bregalad

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #76 on: June 08, 2016, 03:14:13 pm »
@Kallisto and your point is?

Technically, only German, Dutch (including Flemish dialects), English, Swedish, Norwegian and Danish are considered Germanic languages (this includes the dialects of those languages, obviously). Other languages have many Germanic influences, but aren't Germanic at core.

Kallisto

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #77 on: June 19, 2016, 06:11:47 pm »
 :-X

Good grief what is in RMN's water today?

shadowmanwkp

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #78 on: June 27, 2016, 05:27:31 am »
If I recall...most of today's European languages have Germanic language as the parent since the languages are quite similar to old Germanic.

Latin and Slavic languages beg to differ.

SC

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #79 on: July 12, 2016, 08:39:35 am »
I hope consensus here is literal translations are bad.
To me there must be a middle ground between transmiting the meaning and being literal.