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Author Topic: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...  (Read 19557 times)

Bregalad

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2016, 03:49:30 am »
A forum thread in 1897 ? :huh:

More seriously, I have absolutely no problem with Japanese words being imported in other languages. What I do have a problem is japanese grammar being imported, because the translators were not able to translate it a proper way to the target language.

-san / -sama are not Japanese words, they are grammar particles. The concept of grammar particle doesn't exist in western languages, and there is absolutely no point in "importing" them that way.

Also I'd most certainly spend time researching japanese culture, even if it takes more than 3 hours. HOWEVER I still do not want to see these particles in neither French nor English translations.

mz

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2016, 04:05:48 am »
HOWEVER I still do not want to see these particles in neither French nor English translations.
That's great, you should always have the chance to ignore these translations if you want to.

But you should not tell other people how to do whatever they want to do, *specially* if you're not paying anything for it.

They may use -san or -same because they prefer it like that. Most of their readers probably prefer it like that. You may lose a ton of information when you remove them. If these people don't need to spend 3 hours researching Japanese culture to enjoy this extra information, let them have it.

Sure, this translation with its constant "Nii-san" may sound fucking awful to most of us, but to its Japanese nerd readers it may properly convey the real emotions of the speaker, in ways that the cold "Edward" or "Ed" of the official translations may not.
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Rotwang

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2016, 04:09:11 am »
I guess you have no idea at which extent modern French has been corrupted by English the last 20 years. Many false friends, like "abuse", which in french, means "using too much a product", is constantly used by the media for its english meaning "using violence of someone else", which in turns makes the population use it that way.

What the fuck does that have to do with anything I said?

Zynk

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2016, 04:18:56 am »
I think it depends on the circumstances, like in Japanese schools, some ppl want to be addressed as "senpai" for instance. Or someone wants or doesn't want to be called without a honorific. *raises flame shield*

And, how do you localize the "first name basis" rule? I notice that the Japanese are very particular when someone calls you by your first name (especially by nickname) or surname.

Bregalad

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2016, 04:41:07 am »
And, how do you localize the "first name basis" rule? I notice that the Japanese are very particular when someone calls you by your first name (especially by nickname) or surname.
I have no idea how it is in english speaking countries, but in French speaking countries, it's exactly the same. You're supposed to call your friends and family members by their first name, and your professors, supperiors, etc... by their family names, precessed by "Monsieur" or "Madame". You can do exceptions on a case by case basis of course, for example between guys it is common to refer us by simply our family names, but between girls that would never be possible. It's all a matter of context.

That is why they should translate from Japanese properly, by using the equivalent speech in the target language.
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That's great, you should always have the chance to ignore these translations if you want to.

But you should not tell other people how to do whatever they want to do, *specially* if you're not paying anything for it.
So, because I used something that was given for free, I do not have any rights to say my opinion whatsoever? Because people give something away of their own will, they are doomed to have no feedback and stays low quality? What's up with this bizarre mentality? (also, offering paid romhacks and translations wouldn't be legal anyway, so it's not like they had  a choice)

And sure, I am free to ignore this translation and I probably will, also, if it disturb you that I voice my opinion about something I didn't pay for, you are free to ignore this thread.

mz

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2016, 04:47:17 am »
(also, offering paid romhacks and translations wouldn't be legal anyway, so it's not like they had  a choice)
Newsflash: Offering ROM hacks and translations for free doesn't make it legal.
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SunGodPortal

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2016, 03:15:29 pm »
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I think it depends on the circumstances, like in Japanese schools, some ppl want to be addressed as "senpai" for instance. Or someone wants or doesn't want to be called without a honorific. *raises flame shield*

Like Shiine from Akazukin Cha Cha. He wanted everyone to call him "Shiine-chan". To me that was a hint (with other things taken into consideration) that he was a lonely boy that was somewhat desperate to be considered "a part of the group" or "just one of the guys".
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BlackDog61

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2016, 03:41:23 pm »
For anyone else interested in a discussion on the subject from a professional and fan translator, this article here is a good read.

https://missdream.org/editorials/professional-translation-and-the-american-manga-industry/

I don't agree with 100% of what she says, but I think it provides a slightly clearer explanation on the cultural context of -san, -sama, and more natural ways of dealing with them in translation.
A great read, thank you!

And I agree whole heartedly with not liking the presence of san/sama/sensei/nee/nii and friends in a translation.  8)

But I'll still be thankful and glad for English translations. ;D

Bregalad

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2016, 05:29:36 pm »
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But I'll still be thankful and glad for English translations. ;D
Sure, in this case Chrono Trigger SNES has already been translated in French by a group #1, in maybe year 2000 the "original" translation which I played through countless times. Then in maybe 2008 group #1 updated their translation patch to make it even better.

Finally in 2016 group #2 release a French translation which was supposedly better, because based directly on the japanese script. That's where my disappointment comes from. If this was the 1st translation I'll be very glad, but since it's pretty much the 3rd one, the expectations are much higher. And to be honest, translation from group #1 is in my opinion better, even though it is not based on the Japanese script. How ironic.

mz

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2016, 07:28:42 pm »
And to be honest, translation from group #1 is in my opinion better, even though it is not based on the Japanese script. How ironic.
You don't seem to know much Japanese, so you can't really tell which one is better. You can only judge how much you like each one, but I could make up an entire script from scratch that you might like better, and that doesn't make it a better translation (or a translation at all.)

To you "less san and sama = better", so of course the translation based on the English one was going to be your favorite, since that one already had been stripped off that information (and a ton of other stuff too.)

The official SNES English translation of CT was an inaccurate piece of shit, and any translation based on that is an even worse piece of shit. (In fact, any translation based on another translation is automatically a huge piece of shit, but eh... That's for another topic.)
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hanhnn

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2016, 08:07:28 pm »
Now let's start discuss about how we don't we Mr and Mrs in our language, because it's stupid.  :police:

SunGodPortal

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2016, 08:10:36 pm »
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The official SNES English translation of CT was an inaccurate piece of shit, and any translation based on that is an even worse piece of shit. (In fact, any translation based on another translation is automatically a huge piece of shit, but eh... That's for another topic.)

While I wouldn't call it a piece of shit, for the most part I agree with this sentiment. I've been replaying CT recently and you can tell the dialogue was rushed because it def shows. A lot of lines sound awkward or could be reworded to sound smoother or make more sense. There are also some really jolting transitions from one part of a conversation to the next.

There are plenty of memorable moments but I personally am not too attached to the english script. I've been wanting to try one of the re-translations again but I can't really remember what I thought of any of them. I'm the type that would prefer a more accurate translation so long as it doesn't sound stiff/awkward because then it's not really that much of any improvement over the stock trans.
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Gemini

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2016, 08:18:34 pm »
The official SNES English translation of CT was an inaccurate piece of shit, and any translation based on that is an even worse piece of shit.
You can pretty much apply that to anything coming from Woolsey just because his writing is barrel bottom in general, not just for what concerns translations. Remember that horrid game he created with his team? Same issues. Sometimes it feels like he grinds most of the text into some kind of random noun generator, waiting for hilarious results to pop up. Works like a charm, especially when you can come up clean by pointing "time constrains" as the cause (which in some cases could be, but it's really a constant, so...). Terrible demons, youch.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2016, 08:25:29 pm by Gemini »
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mrrichard999

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2016, 10:35:17 pm »
I wonder what Dr.Floppy would do.

Cargodin

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2016, 03:17:45 am »
I think it honestly depends on the setting. If a game setting takes place in Japan, I think it's fair. As someone who doesn't mind it either way, I think that's just the difference between a Persona 3 localization vs. a Phoenix Wright localization. Suffixes and titles get way more complicated in Jidai stories, so I also think they play a bigger role than they would, in say, a Wild West setting.

Bregalad

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #35 on: April 26, 2016, 03:45:49 am »
I think it honestly depends on the setting. If a game setting takes place in Japan, I think it's fair.
You got a point.

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You don't seem to know much Japanese, so you can't really tell which one is better. You can only judge how much you like each one, but I could make up an entire script from scratch that you might like better, and that doesn't make it a better translation (or a translation at all.)
Absolutely. What I really meant is that the end-result in French language looks better with the older patch from the other group. I do not really care if it is 1:1 faithful to the japanese original, as long as it is understandable and well written, and that the storyline is kept intact, and that no stupid jokes are made up.

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The official SNES English translation of CT was an inaccurate piece of shit, and any translation based on that is an even worse piece of shit.
Please give me a reference that it indeed a piece of s**t. Do you speak japanese? To me it doesn't look like a piece of s**t at all. The english is perfectly understandable.

I had to play many French translation from official games where the language is actually not understandable. Secret of Mana and Breath of Fire III comes to mind. And don't even get me started on Final Fantasy Adventure, Square's 1st RPG to have ever been translated in French. Now THOSE are shitty translations.

mz

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2016, 05:42:59 am »
Please give me a reference that it indeed a piece of s**t. Do you speak japanese? To me it doesn't look like a piece of s**t at all. The english is perfectly understandable.
I wasn't talking about how understandable was its English, but about how accurate its J->E translation was.

I can speak Japanese as good as English, that is, barely at all. :D But I try to read it, and some of the things that helped me the most at the beginning were "parallel reading" the scripts of games like CT or FF7, which had the original Japanese scripts, the official English translations and some fan re-translations scripts available.

In any case, here's a simple reference for CT if you're interested: https://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Translation_Differences.html
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Bregalad

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2016, 10:24:08 am »
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In any case, here's a simple reference for CT if you're interested: https://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Translation_Differences.html
I did not read the entiere thing very carefully, however, I do not feel that any of what is described here makes the translation a shitty translation, not even a mediocre one. Some names were changed, some things shortened due to space constraints, and references to religion and alcohol were partially removed because Nintendo forced them to, even though it's obvious the original game mentions religion and alcohol even after the censorship. (one guy outright mention getting drunk with lemonade... come on).

Finally I have to doubt what this page says when it mention Ayla refering to Crono as "Cro". Since you can rename Crono to your liking, I do not see how this is possible - although it's entirely possible that she calls him "Cro" no matter how your rename him - or that she uses "Cro" only if you didn't rename him. I guess I'll have to check this out to see how it's handled.

You seem to be one of those guys that think any change, even slight, from the japanese original is an outage. Be it a name change, a change that was imposed by technical constraints such as screen space, or censorship which is due to Nintendo and not due to Square, or replacements of "?!" with "!?", you think this is an outrage, and that the translation is a piece of s***t, when in fact this is just your opinion.

Personally I do not mind such changes, as long as they are consistent. If the text is proper and fully understandable in the target language, I do not mind. However, if all names are kept "intact" but that the text is a word-to-word translation of the Japanese original which barely makes sense in the target language, then I certainly won't find that it is a good translation, even if I do not speek any Japanese.

I agree this can lead to problems, for instance, when the j2e re-translation of FF4 was released, I first thought it was an amazing translation because it was well worded, and very clear. Only later when the truth was uncovered and that I learned that many side-stories were simply made up, then I change my mind.

CONCLUSION

I must say I might have been a little harsh with this new CT French translations. I expected it to be a major improvement over the previous one, it is not. It is just different, makes different choices and compromises. I was sort of attached to the original translation, which is why it is not to my liking.

The usage of japanism is limited, but they're still here and there, and I find it disturbing and un-professional. They only use Lenee-senpai (or was it -sama I don't even remember) once, and use just "Lenee" everywhere else. They also have laughter left in japanese "ku ku ku" which in French sounds completely idiotic and do not soud like a laughter at all, if you didn't "study" japanese.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 10:32:15 am by Bregalad »

mz

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #38 on: April 26, 2016, 02:42:31 pm »
You seem to be one of those guys that think any change, even slight, from the japanese original is an outage.
I'm the complete opposite, actually. I don't play translations anymore, so I don't even give a shit about what anyone else does with their translations.

I just stated my opinion of it because I happened to have read the original text and the translation some years ago. To you, san and sama means low quality; to me, making up shit and omitting important stuff means low quality.

You're free to have a different opinion, stop thinking that one's opinion is better than somebody else's opinion, or that the quality of a translation can be measured objectively as a hard fact.
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tryphon

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Re: Message for translators: Please no NOT use -san / -sama / etc...
« Reply #39 on: April 26, 2016, 03:03:53 pm »
To you, san and sama means low quality; to me, making up shit and omitting important stuff means low quality.

One doesn't exclude the other.

Removing -san and -sama is not omitting important stuff, except in the case of a very Japan oriented story, in which case it should be used, as Cargodin told. In other situations, it's, at best, ridiculous and deserves the translation.

The problem with Japan -> English/French translators is that they are quite rare, and so we "take what we have", even if they don't have good skills in their own languages. I'm lucky : I worked with 2 translators (Hiei- and Eien Ni Hen), and both of them did a marvellous job (go play Phantasy Star Generations  2 and Psy-O-Blade if you don't believe me), but I've played French translations so badly written that I switched to the English one : at least, if they were bad written, my English was not good enough for me to notice :)