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Author Topic: The Classic Era and The Modern Era of Gaming  (Read 9137 times)

Tharthan

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Re: The Classic Era and The Modern Era of Gaming
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2015, 09:40:03 am »
I remember an article in Game Informer in the 2000s where it was saying "are modern games for babies", talking about how games were too easy unlike games such as text adventures and old point and click games.

Whilst there was definitely some truth in that matter, what came to follow it was an era of games which brought back difficulty (at least in some niches).

And what do we have now? A big sloppy mishmash of big titles and individual developer titles. Where exactly has that gotten us?

Gaming has reached its climax, and unless a big company can regain its old glory, I don't see it heading anywhere but to the "falling action".

KaioShin

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Re: The Classic Era and The Modern Era of Gaming
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2015, 09:53:48 am »
And what do we have now? A big sloppy mishmash of big titles and individual developer titles. Where exactly has that gotten us?

Yes where exactly? What is your point? There was never more choice for games of all genres and budgets.
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Tharthan

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Re: The Classic Era and The Modern Era of Gaming
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2015, 10:02:01 am »
Yes where exactly? What is your point? There was never more choice for games of all genres and budgets.

Oh, no. I'm not disagreeing with you at all there. All that I am saying is that I'm not sure where gaming can go next now that all of this has been achieved.

We've a achieved so much, so where do we go now?

Spooniest

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Re: The Classic Era and The Modern Era of Gaming
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2015, 10:02:34 am »
Yes where exactly? What is your point? There was never more choice for games of all genres and budgets.

I can play a pc port of The mobile version of FF5 on my computer with a SNES replica controller from Bufallo. I agree with Kaio.
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Tharthan

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Re: The Classic Era and The Modern Era of Gaming
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2015, 10:03:47 am »
I can play a pc port of The mobile version of FF5 on my computer with a SNES replica controller from Bufallo. I agree with Kaio.

Again:

Oh, no. I'm not disagreeing with you at all there. All that I am saying is that I'm not sure where gaming can go next now that all of this has been achieved.

We've a achieved so much, so where do we go now?

Listen, I'm as appreciative as the next guy for all of the options we have in gaming today, especially because I like a lot of niche genres.

But I'm not sure where gaming is now to go next.

KaioShin

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Re: The Classic Era and The Modern Era of Gaming
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2015, 10:05:00 am »
Oh, no. I'm not disagreeing with you at all there. All that I am saying is that I'm not sure where gaming can go next now that all of this has been achieved.

We've a achieved so much, so where do we go now?

Oh I see. Well VR is right around the corner and might just open up another completely different field of games and game-like applications. I'm not convinced we are at a peak yet.  :angel:
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Disch

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Re: The Classic Era and The Modern Era of Gaming
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2015, 11:31:53 am »
Most of what you're asking for was in the manuals back in those days.

I've read the LoZ manual.  It doesn't tell you any of the things I'm complaining about.

http://www.nesfiles.com/NES/Zelda/Zelda.pdf

Things the manual makes absolutely no mention of:
- Lanterns can burn certain bushes (it just says it's used for lighting dark rooms)
- Bombs open passageways (it just says it's a weapon)
- Recorder opens passageways
- Certain walls can be walked through
- Hints at where any hidden dungeons are

If anything, the manual's description of items is deceptive, as it leads you astray as to what the items true purpose is.

Page 9 basically admits it's a trial and error game.  "Try anything to get out!"

Quote
I don't defend its design decision but I give it a pass.

Believe it or not... so do I.  For 1986 standards.

Again.. my whole point here is not really to rip on LoZ... it's to point out how much expectations of video games have changed because the bar has been raised so much.  By modern game design standards, these decisions are unacceptable.  Not because players now are less intelligent... or are less willing... but because it's bad game design.  These mechanics are more frustrating than fun.

Quote
Other things you mention there's a lack of explanation for is there in the manual, even the part with the flute opening paths.

What page?  I didn't see it anywhere.

The manual just says "Use it and it'll amaze you with what it can do".  Reasonably, after trying it the first time on the overworld, you'd come to the conclusion it's used for teleporting.  There's no indication it opens a passageway.

Quote
Hence why I jokingly called the new games Adventures of Lolo. Where you look at puzzles in Zelda in a positive light, I don't. Puzzles can be fun and great but they have often zero replay value to them once you've figured them out. The dungeons in the old games in the series were labyrinths, hence why they had a map and compass in the first place. The emphasis was on arcade like combat and on navigating mazes. You could get lost in those dungeons without a map and a compass, it was not just a series of rooms with silly and stupid puzzles.

I agree the combat oriented style of LoZ is arguably better than the puzzle oriented style of later Zelda games.  LoZ and Z2 are just about the only Zelda games where it's possible you might die.  The rest of the games are pitifully easy.

Though honestly I think all Zelda games are more about exploring an immersive world than they are about combat or puzzles.

Quote
And there was very few rooms where you had to push a specific block to advance.

There are lots of rooms with a closed door that doesn't open when you kill all the enemies.  At that point you have to resort to pushing every on-screen block before realizing that the door simply doesn't open at all.

And 2nd quest has a lot more of push-block rooms... and a lot more teleportation rooms.  But apparently 2nd quest doesn't count.  For some reason everyone in this thread wants to sweep half of this game under the rug and not talk about it.

Quote
It's hardly random, it's called spectacle rock in game for a reason.

No indication is given to you that screen is spectacle rock.  Yes the game makes mention of spectacle rock, but it doesn't tell you where that is.  You could just as easily think the giant rock east of the desert is Spectacle rock... after all, it is a spectacle to behold, being the largest rock on the overworld.  And that rock even has a secret in it if you bomb it!

Or the old man might be spouting gibberish like he has in the past.  Wtf does "Eastmost penninsula is the secret" mean?  Are there even any peninnsula's in this game?

I didn't even make the connection that the level 9 screen was spectacle rock until my 20s.  Who calls glasses "spectacles" anyway?  Certainly not 10 year old kids playing Zelda.  And that's assuming you can even make the connection that two rocks are supposed to be spectacles in the first place.

Quote
This was never for me the stumbling block I've heard it was to many players. My guess would be that most people tried to kill him first, when it didn't work, there's only the flute and bait left.

Or the candle.  Or bombs.  Or the wand.  Or walking through screens in the right order.  Or pushing a block you missed.  Or maybe that's an 'exit only' room.  Or maybe you're supposed to beat a boss first.  If this game established anything its that any item can have a hidden meaning, and that pathways open through cryptic means.  Again, the game never establishes what the rules are, and the manual literally tells you to "try everything".

Using the bait -- and really most of the cryptic things in this game are the kinds of things that makes sense only in hindsight.  You're not really given adequate clues to figure it out, so you have to dick around and try a bunch of different things... but once you find the right thing it's like "Oh... okay.  That's how that works.  I guess that kind of makes sense"


I think it's hard for people to take off the nostalgia glasses on this one.  LoZ is a beloved game -- and not without good reason.  This was a fantastic, revolutionary, and super fun game when it came out.  But it really has not aged well.  Or at least... not as well as you'd think.

I would love to see someone take a teenager who has never played LoZ before and sit them down for a playthrough.  See if they can figure out all the cryptic shit without clues or guides.  I bet you most of them would get frustrated and angry at the game.

Recca

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Re: The Classic Era and The Modern Era of Gaming
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2015, 11:49:05 am »
The 1990s and early 2000s were definitely the best gaming eras in my opinion. Back then, RPGs actually had decent story lines and characters. These days, the main focus is on showing off their graphical designs while sacrificing the plot. Not to mention the ridiculous system requirements to even play these new modern games (by which I mean the PC games)... Of course, everyone is free to think what they what. I just prefer playing retro games a whole lot more than most of the newer ones. It's exactly the same with anime, music and movies for me. That's not to say that I've never enjoyed playing any modern ones, just not nearly as many.
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tryphon

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Re: The Classic Era and The Modern Era of Gaming
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2015, 12:00:50 pm »
One thing that could be interesting is to know how old you were at the time you think it was the best era.

For me, it's around 1992. I was 15.

FAST6191

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Re: The Classic Era and The Modern Era of Gaming
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2015, 01:13:45 pm »
These days, the main focus is on showing off their graphical designs while sacrificing the plot. Not to mention the ridiculous system requirements to even play these new modern games (by which I mean the PC games)

Things have changed a smidge since the end of the PS360 but when they were a thing then them being directX9 based hardware it held things back for years.
Here are a bunch of requirements* for 2013 and 2014 games, most of these are top tier stuff as well and independent stuff tends not to be worse.

*time was that requirements were as great a work of fiction as timesheets but these I will stand by.

http://www.vg247.com/2012/12/13/dmc-devil-may-cry-hits-pc-january-25-recommended-specs-released/
https://help.ea.com/uk/article/dead-space-3-feature-faq/#5
http://wccftech.com/crysis-3-system-requirements-pc-detailed-requires-gtx-680-hd-7970-max-settings/ (crysis not exactly known as a gentle series for systems)
http://www.geforce.com/games-applications/pc-games/resident-evil-6/system-requirements
http://www.game-debate.com/games/index.php?g_id=4556&game=Dead%20Island%20Riptide
http://www.game-debate.com/games/index.php?g_id=3072&game=Saints%20Row%204
http://www.game-debate.com/games/index.php?g_id=1355&game=Tomb%20Raider
http://www.game-debate.com/games/index.php?g_id=4526&game=Castlevania:%20Lords%20of%20Shadow%202
http://www.game-debate.com/games/index.php?g_id=7211&game=Transistor
http://www.game-debate.com/games/index.php?g_id=860&game=The%20Witcher%20II
http://www.game-debate.com/games/index.php?g_id=20329&game=Metro%20Redux
http://www.game-debate.com/games/index.php?g_id=3513&game=Final%20Fantasy%20XIII
http://www.game-debate.com/games/index.php?g_id=8147&game=Far%20Cry%204 being the first thing on this list to want something like an i5, directX11 capable cards and OSes to match.
http://www.game-debate.com/games/index.php?g_id=9105&game=Middle-earth:%20Shadow%20of%20Mordor to continue the trend started above.
http://www.game-debate.com/games/index.php?g_id=441&game=Elite:%20Dangerous (back to core2 but quads this time)

Most of the specs (core2, a few gigs of RAM) there I built in my reasonably modest 2007 machine and the 8 series of Nvidia and 3 series of AMD/ATI by 2013/2014 was very much old hat (it was just coming in in early 2007).

I will leave it to others to discuss the notion of plots being sacrificed/better back in the day.

Disch

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Re: The Classic Era and The Modern Era of Gaming
« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2015, 01:58:57 pm »
Sorry SGP, I missed this somehow:

[Re: Fez]  Maybe I'll try it some day. What platform?

I played it on 360, but it's been ported to pretty much everything now, I think.  360, PS3, Windows, Mac, you name it.

Though some of the puzzles used the controller in a weird way... I'm not sure how they adjusted that for PCs/Macs.

Try to avoid guides and spoilers.  The game is completely about deciphering the clues and if you read about how to solve them it sucks all the fun out of the game.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/224760/


Trailer:
https://youtu.be/tfpKTclOnfI


The soundtrack is amazing, too.  Really atmospheric and soothing.  Terrific background music:
https://youtu.be/76GnOwHorn0?list=PL89C6D0CCE49B641D
« Last Edit: November 20, 2015, 02:07:22 pm by Disch »

PresidentLeever

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Re: The Classic Era and The Modern Era of Gaming
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2015, 02:11:15 pm »
One thing that could be interesting is to know how old you were at the time you think it was the best era.

For me, it's around 1992. I was 15.

For me it's ~1989-2002 (particularly 1993-94 and 98-99) and I recently turned 30.
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SunGodPortal

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Re: The Classic Era and The Modern Era of Gaming
« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2015, 02:56:02 pm »
Quote
One thing that could be interesting is to know how old you were at the time you think it was the best era.

For me, it's around 1992. I was 15.

I was born in 1984.

Most of the games I like are for the NES, SNES and PS2. I haven't played nearly as many games for any more recent systems for financial reasons. I would also be more willing to shell out some cash for newer systems if I didn't already have a huge backlog of games for the systems I currently own.
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Tharthan

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Re: The Classic Era and The Modern Era of Gaming
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2015, 03:05:20 pm »
I was born in 1984.

That's amusing, because you seem to be all about 1984. ;)

SunGodPortal

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Re: The Classic Era and The Modern Era of Gaming
« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2015, 03:07:37 pm »
Quote
That's amusing, because you seem to be all about 1984. ;)

:)
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Spooniest

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Re: The Classic Era and The Modern Era of Gaming
« Reply #35 on: November 20, 2015, 03:38:28 pm »
Well the players gonna play play play play play, and the...

What's that? 1984, oh, not 1989.

:D hehe

I was born in 81, and my favorite era of games is gonna have to be the SNES-Genesis console war. I'm spacing on the years, but it was when I was a teenager. I remember getting a SNES for my 13th birthday, in fact. :)
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MisterJones

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Re: The Classic Era and The Modern Era of Gaming
« Reply #36 on: November 20, 2015, 04:26:07 pm »
I was born in 1985, grew with a 2600, and NES and then an SNES (which lasted me until college), and I dont hold much love for either. There are the games that I still like, but they are fewer as I have become more and more a PC gamer
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Re: The Classic Era and The Modern Era of Gaming
« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2015, 06:07:19 pm »
I was born in 1988, and grew up with a SNES. I remember getting FF4 for my 4th birthday and having my mind efficiently blown, and playing the beginning of A Link to the Past for the first time during a thunder storm during the same general period of time.

I remember playing Resident Evil 1 for the first time with my parents during the summer of 1998, which is when the game takes place.

PS2/Gamecube era had some great classics as well. I still remember the hours of watching Luigi dry humping everything in his mansion while screaming for his brother. It was funny as hell.


So with the random rambling done, I consider everything from the PS2/XBOX/Gamecube era back to be considered classic as far as console gaming goes.

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KillerBob

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Re: The Classic Era and The Modern Era of Gaming
« Reply #38 on: November 21, 2015, 09:47:30 am »
What page?  I didn't see it anywhere.

The manual just says "Use it and it'll amaze you with what it can do".  Reasonably, after trying it the first time on the overworld, you'd come to the conclusion it's used for teleporting.  There's no indication it opens a passageway.
On p.25-26 "The whistle is the most mysterious of all the treasures in this game. Blow the whistle and it’ll let out a strange sound. People say it opens up paths for Link."

But when I looked at the Japanese text, it seems to me like that last part of the line was a mistranslation.

The Japanese line says
笛は物語の中で最も不思議な宝物だ。これを吹くと鳴る聖なる昔は、リンクの進む道を切り開くともいわれる。

My Japanese is very limited but the last line seems to be something like: "it is also said to pave the way of travel for Link." perhaps someone could confirm.

In the Japanese manual it's more clear there's more to the flute than it just being a tool used for travel.

I've read the LoZ manual.  It doesn't tell you any of the things I'm complaining about.
Things the manual makes absolutely no mention of:
- Lanterns can burn certain bushes (it just says it's used for lighting dark rooms)
- Bombs open passageways (it just says it's a weapon)
- Hints at where any hidden dungeons are

Regarding hints, once again I will tell you that there are both clear visual cues in the terrain and spoken hints in the game for the hidden dungeons.

What should those additional hints in the manual be to satisfy you as a modern gamer, arrow marks on a map?

Level 4 tells you were to buy the information to get through the maze to reach level 5

Level 6 gives you a hint on where to find level 7

Level 7 gives you a hint on where to find level 9 (in level 8 in the English version)

An old man in a cave gives you a hint on where to find level 8

A mountain maze, a lonely spring of water, a funny shaped rock formation and a tree with a very unusual placement.

I believe you have put on the stupid hat just for the sake of it. You said:

"you have to resort to systematically burning every onscreen bush and bombing every onscreen wall in order to find out where to go.  It's a complete disaster.  That would be completely unacceptable today."
That would also have been unacceptable in 1986, because no one did play Zelda like that when they first played it. What you are describing sounds more of what happened when people tried to find all the secrets the game contained. There's only one single tree you need to burn and only one rock wall that needs to be bombed in order to progress, and they are hardly random, they stand out quite a bit. Despite being an open world game, the game has a quite straightforward progression for the first four dungeons where the game teach you its mechanics.

As for the bombs and candles, the Maps and Strategies folder included, told you both of those things clearly, the Japanese release didn't include that additional material. Personally I found it to be overkill, my copy strangely didn't include it even though the package said so. Anyway, again I think you wear the stupid hat just for the sake of it. Seriously, how long did it take for people to find out that bombs can blow up walls. By the time you are forced to use a bomb in that manner, you're in level 5. By that time, most players had discovered it. If not, the room it happens in is a no way out situation where the enemy are carrying a bomb, and where the key item dropped when you kill them is a bomb. It doesn't get more obvious than that.

As for the candles, you will obviously want to deal with that unusual tree blocking the way in the eastern woods that has been bugging you, combined with the old man telling you that there is a secret in a tree at a dead-end. Simple deduction, your inventory to deal with it isn't massive. In an action adventure game with a huge emphasis on exploration, these things are far from being anything impossible to figure out for yourself. Most of the things you complain about is exploration 101.

There are lots of rooms with a closed door that doesn't open when you kill all the enemies.  At that point you have to resort to pushing every on-screen block before realizing that the door simply doesn't open at all.
Well, like I said:
And there was very few rooms where you had to push a specific block to advance. The other block switches you may be thinking about isn't and was never intended to be any attempt at puzzles either. If you think so, then you're missing the point, they are always in the same position. They were just another kind of door-lock mechanism which forced you to do combat before advancing...
Show me an example of your guessing game you describe.

No indication is given to you that screen is spectacle rock.  Yes the game makes mention of spectacle rock, but it doesn't tell you where that is.  You could just as easily think the giant rock east of the desert is Spectacle rock... after all, it is a spectacle to behold, being the largest rock on the overworld.  And that rock even has a secret in it if you bomb it!

I didn't even make the connection that the level 9 screen was spectacle rock until my 20s.  Who calls glasses "spectacles" anyway?  Certainly not 10 year old kids playing Zelda.  And that's assuming you can even make the connection that two rocks are supposed to be spectacles in the first place.
Well, my point weren't its name, the simple fact it's an obvious landmark on the world map combined with its spoken hint in the game will give most players the idea. Far from anything random.

Again.. my whole point here is not really to rip on LoZ... it's to point out how much expectations of video games have changed because the bar has been raised so much.  By modern game design standards, these decisions are unacceptable.  Not because players now are less intelligent... or are less willing... but because it's bad game design.  These mechanics are more frustrating than fun.
I understand that, I just disagree with the random aimless trial and error quality you give this title as it's simply not true. People are quick to shout "bad game-design" when they experience "dated game-design", they aren't always synonymous with each other.

I think it's hard for people to take off the nostalgia glasses on this one.  LoZ is a beloved game -- and not without good reason.  This was a fantastic, revolutionary, and super fun game when it came out.  But it really has not aged well.  Or at least... not as well as you'd think.
As you clearly had such a hard time with everything when playing this, I'm kind of curious to know why you think it was a fantastic, revolutionary, and super fun game when it came out? Or was all the frustrations you had with the game a recent experience?
« Last Edit: November 21, 2015, 06:19:35 pm by KillerBob »

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Re: The Classic Era and The Modern Era of Gaming
« Reply #39 on: November 21, 2015, 06:02:24 pm »
Things the manual makes absolutely no mention of:
- Lanterns can burn certain bushes (it just says it's used for lighting dark rooms)
- Bombs open passageways (it just says it's a weapon)
- Recorder opens passageways
- Certain walls can be walked through
- Hints at where any hidden dungeons are

If anything, the manual's description of items is deceptive, as it leads you astray as to what the items true purpose is.
Ah!  But the map included separately from the manual does mention many of these things.  There's a good argument to be made for the game never being intended for play without the map.
http://www.angelfire.com/games5/makzelda/zelda1/mapsandstrategies.html

ETA: I guess Mr. Bob beat me to it.
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