Emu Accuracy analysis: FCEUX vs. NEStopia

[obscurumlux01]

The input lag I get is from Super Mario Bros 1 and 3. I play with a PS2 controller plugged into my PC via USB and Nestopia handles it well. But puNES I notice the jumps take a split second longer to register and I get killed even in 1-1!

Then I ran into a major bug with Donkey Kong Country (1.0). I had an .smc file that snespurify converted to .sfc and it created a bug. If you used the BARRAL code and then get hit by an enemy, the screen went blank. I never liked the newer versions of bsnes, now Higan, and the straw that broke the camel's back was the fact that the new library system COPIES your Roms and creates its own folder system seperate from your existing ROMS

What I mean in Kega Fusion is the screen when you first load it up. It's like turning on an old TV to channel 3 with the scrambled white snow. It's cool the first time you see it, but its annoying the more you use the emulator.

This has been a very interesting discussion, heh.

1 - I still get zero input lag after extensive testing with Super Mario Bros 1, 2, and 3.  I'm starting to think it is your controller rather than puNES.  Perhaps Nestopia has some kind of input library that takes odd controllers into account and compensates for it.  Dunno exactly.  You said you're using a PS2 controller but is it an official Sony PlayStation 2 Dual-Shock or is it one of those Chinese-made generic lookalikes?
I'm using a standard Logitech 'Precision' Gamepad.  Like $10 USD at most stores.  I got mine for free from my older bro but you can still find them.  They're really fantastic for pre-analog gaming.
For post-analog gaming I use a Logitech F310 gamepad.  Really good sturdy build quality and large enough for my huge hands.  It can take a beating, but it is better not to abuse your gamepads.  It is really easy to find and I got mine at a Walmart (US-based discount item retailer) for like $25 USD with free in-store pickup.
You could just use the F310 for both, but I don't feel right playing an 8-bit or 16-bit game with analogs.  But that's just me
Neither one of those Logitech gamepads require me to install special drivers or recalibrate things.  Just plug and play.

2 - Tested your bug with the latest v0.95 version of Higan; couldn't replicate it.  And yeah I hate how the library system works but it is supposedly to make up for all the interleaved/deinterleaved or header/nonheader roms.  Unfortunately if you do this then you still have to keep an original ROM backup and it is double the space but meh.

3 - I know what you're talking about.  You're using an older or non-Windows version of Kega or Kega Fusion.  The latest version is v3.64 released on March 6 of 2010 by Steve Snake.  That link is his official website where you can get it.  If you are using Windows 8 or 8.1 then you need this version so your emulator will run at 60 FPS in full screen mode (otherwise it is locked to 30 FPS).  If you are on Windows 10 there have been reports that it doesn't even run in full-screen mode even with that 60 FPS fix.
Yet another reason to stay with Win7

[Rodimus Primal]

I'm using two official PS2 controllers plugged into an adapter. I have no issues with any other program with them. I even use Xbox360ce with them so that games on Steam work (had a blast with Double Dragon Neon and Transformers Devestation!). I really don't like the Logitech D-Pads on controllers. They aren't great for diagonals which makes fighting games a challenge to pull of special moves. It's almost like using the transforming D-Pad on the X-box 360 controller in that it's not quite right even though they try.

The version of bsnes I used was V073. I'm sure there have been improvements since then, but the horrid and unconfigurable library system with each version since and the removed features in the GUI have been reasons I've stuck to my guns. It happened when I used the snespurify tool that came with THAT version of bsnes to convert my ROMS from .smc to .sfc. The problem is in the conversion to .sfc. Higan 0.95 doesn't quite do that. Also, Higan doesn't compensate for the overscan area so in full screen the game area is smaller than it should be. It's like watching a widescreen movie from a DVD before anamorphic widescreen (tiny rectangle in the middle of my TV). That was implemented back in V088 and byuu said he will not change or fix it. I would always try out the new version of bsnes even up to the name change to Higan, but I find SNES9x does everything I need it to do.

I've been using 3.64 of Kega Fusion. I did a Google seach last night to discover that you can turn TV static off in the .ini file. All you have to do is change it from 0 to 1. I'm using Windows 10 and told it to run Kega in compatibility mode with Windows 7. There are no issues that I've had with full screen with it set that way. Since I use the right click for the menu to change games or exit, I never have to leave full screen to run it.

[MeganGrass]

The dedication to accuracy that byuu has put into bsnes has always interested me and definitely will always have my utmost respect. His work on special chips is still an amazing accomplishment that I will always adore.

Rather unfortunately, everything became a mess when the file/folder thing was forced upon everyone; It's completely unnecessary and inconvenient. To make matters worse, everyone who has voiced their disliking of that "feature" is typically met with a "fuck off" type of response. Stop trying to make fetch happen, it isn't going to happen.

On top of that, you're practically forced to use an external app (snespurify) to manage your rom data before you can even boot a ROM in the emulator for the first time.

Accuracy doesn't matter in emulators when one has to jump through hoops to get the darned thing to boot... and not that it matters in terms of usability, but the "bsnes" title is infinitely better than "higan".


I hate that I have these complaints, I really just wish the emulator wasn't a hassle to use.

[SunGodPortal]

The dedication to accuracy that byuu has put into bsnes has always interested me and definitely will always have my utmost respect. His work on special chips is still an amazing accomplishment that I will always adore.

Rather unfortunately, everything became a mess when the file/folder thing was forced upon everyone; It's completely unnecessary and inconvenient. To make matters worse, everyone who has voiced their disliking of that "feature" is typically met with a "fuck off" type of response. Stop trying to make fetch happen, it isn't going to happen.

On top of that, you're practically forced to use an external app (snespurify) to manage your rom data before you can even boot a ROM in the emulator for the first time.

Accuracy doesn't matter in emulators when one has to jump through hoops to get the darned thing to boot... and not that it matters in terms of usability, but the "bsnes" title is infinitely better than "higan".


I hate that I have these complaints, I really just wish the emulator wasn't a hassle to use.

Sounds like I'll never be using it then. I just want to play and hack games. I don't want that experience to be ruined by what seems like the author's bizarre and unhealthy fixation on something that's been taken to an illogical extreme to the detriment of the user.

[MeganGrass]

Sounds like I'll never be using it then. I just want to play and hack games. I don't want that experience to be ruined by what seems like the author's bizarre and unhealthy fixation on something that's been taken to an illogical extreme to the detriment of the user.

Please, don't let my opinion prevent you from at least trying it. Seriously.

It's a most excellent emulator! ...it just isn't user-friendly, at all.

[obscurumlux01]

I'm using two official PS2 controllers plugged into an adapter. I have no issues with any other program with them. I really don't like the Logitech D-Pads on controllers. They aren't great for diagonals which makes fighting games a challenge to pull of special moves.
I've been using 3.64 of Kega Fusion. I did a Google seach last night to discover that you can turn TV static off in the .ini file. All you have to do is change it from 0 to 1. I'm using Windows 10 and told it to run Kega in compatibility mode with Windows 7. There are no issues that I've had with full screen with it set that way. Since I use the right click for the menu to change games or exit, I never have to leave full screen to run it.

For KEGA, I found the item to change in the INI file:  StaticDisabled=1
I didn't realize that I'd already changed this a while ago and just forgot about it.  ^_^
I have a feeling the adapter you are using is not fully supported/compatible with puNES for some reason.  Not sure why.  I've had no issues with Logitech D-Pads but I understand people have their own preferences.

The dedication to accuracy that byuu has put into bsnes has always interested me and definitely will always have my utmost respect. His work on special chips is still an amazing accomplishment that I will always adore.
Rather unfortunately, everything became a mess when the file/folder thing was forced upon everyone; It's completely unnecessary and inconvenient. To make matters worse, everyone who has voiced their disliking of that "feature" is typically met with a "fuck off" type of response. Stop trying to make fetch happen, it isn't going to happen.
On top of that, you're practically forced to use an external app (snespurify) to manage your rom data before you can even boot a ROM in the emulator for the first time.
Accuracy doesn't matter in emulators when one has to jump through hoops to get the darned thing to boot... and not that it matters in terms of usability, but the "bsnes" title is infinitely better than "higan".

The thing with byuu is they always march to the beat of their own drummer.  That's just how it goes; their emulator their rules in a way.  Not that I agree with it but that is how they decided to do it.  They never made Higan for the community; it was always a personal passion project.  I find it ironic that byuu expects the wider emulation community to adopt Higan as a standard when he's so openly hostile to anyone that doesn't agree with them.

I also am thankful for and admire their dedication to accuracy and special chips.  The information that byuu and 'Doctor Decapitator' were able to obtain on the various special SNES cartridge-chips is absolutely priceless.  The good Doc was the one who did work that is worth millions of dollars in time and labor for just the cost of materials/parts.

The external app thing consists of 'icarus' which is bundled with Higan v0.95 on byuu's website.  Does basically the same stuff as snespurify plus organizes things so the emulator can find the files.

As for the change from bsnes, I believe it was a trademark issue and wanting to avoid infringing on Nintendo trademarks.  It has been a while since I visited byuu's forum but that discussion may still be archived somewhere.

I wouldn't recommend Higan for casual users to use.  I'd recommend SNES9X instead.  Higan is made exclusively for accuracy-enthusiasts who have the hardware and technical know-how to deal with the quirks of using it and configuring everything properly.  They also have to be willing to not bother sending suggestions to byuu and stick purely with noting bug reports if they want to contribute to development (or fork the code if they can do programming).

People can complain about Higan but it is under GPL so just fork it and stick it up on GitHub and change the stupid UI/folder system to something better.  Perhaps use the 'Performance' core by default and integrate all 3 cores as a menu option instead of seperate executables.

As I posted earlier, RetroArch supposedly has a version of Higan that fits these criteria and I'll be looking into it if I ever have to play those games that would benefit from it.

[SunGodPortal]

Please, don't let my opinion prevent you from at least trying it. Seriously.

It's a most excellent emulator! ...it just isn't user-friendly, at all.

Actually now that I think about it, I only use a SNES emulator when I test my hacks or when playing weird hacks that won't work on real hardware. ZSNES does everything that I need it to so I guess I'll just keep using it. An accurate emulator for something other than NES or SNES would be more interesting for me as I tend to just play those games on real hardware but emulate other things like handheld systems that I will likely never buy.

[KingMike]

My guess is the name bsnes was changed when the emulator became a multi-system emulator and the name no longer seemed appropriate.
At first he added the first full support for the Super Game Boy (one emulator emulating the SNES and GB at once. Though last I tried it the GB core was still a work in progress, particularly sound. This allowed things like the SNES mode in the US/EU GB Space Invaders.) Then when cracking the ST018 expansion chip, it was discovered to have an ARM-based CPU, so with the help of a GBA hacker he added GBA support. He was also took the next logical step and and began work on DS emulation but dropped it once he realized the DS was too different to continue supporting it. Not sure how the NES got added in.

byuu was working on Far East of Eden Zero, so he renamed his emulator after the main character of that game. Maybe he had other reasons, though, I can't remember.

[helaku]

About snes emulation I see that nobody talks about SNESGT.
From what I've heard it's better than Snes9X in terms of accuracy.
Here is a link: http://gigo.retrogames.com/download.html
Please tell me your opinions

P.S.  last stable build is 0.218 and last test build is 0.230 beta7
P.S. 2 I would like to see in the future a technical side by side test for Snes9X and SNESGT, which is better and why

[MeganGrass]

My guess is the name bsnes was changed when the emulator became a multi-system emulator and the name no longer seemed appropriate.
At first he added the first full support for the Super Game Boy (one emulator emulating the SNES and GB at once. Though last I tried it the GB core was still a work in progress, particularly sound. This allowed things like the SNES mode in the US/EU GB Space Invaders.) Then when cracking the ST018 expansion chip, it was discovered to have an ARM-based CPU, so with the help of a GBA hacker he added GBA support. He was also took the next logical step and and began work on DS emulation but dropped it once he realized the DS was too different to continue supporting it. Not sure how the NES got added in.

byuu was working on Far East of Eden Zero, so he renamed his emulator after the main character of that game. Maybe he had other reasons, though, I can't remember.

Ah, that makes sense. I wouldn't completely disregard an emulator because of the name given to it, however, I do disregard bloatware. I wouldn't download and use a file compression utility that doubles as an internet chat messenger. That is an outrageous example, but the same principal applies.

Too much is too much.

I wouldn't recommend Higan for casual users to use.  I'd recommend SNES9X instead.  Higan is made exclusively for accuracy-enthusiasts who have the hardware and technical know-how to deal with the quirks of using it and configuring everything properly.  They also have to be willing to not bother sending suggestions to byuu and stick purely with noting bug reports if they want to contribute to development (or fork the code if they can do programming).

People can complain about Higan but it is under GPL so just fork it and stick it up on GitHub and change the stupid UI/folder system to something better.  Perhaps use the 'Performance' core by default and integrate all 3 cores as a menu option instead of seperate executables.

Good point.

It just gives me peace of mind in knowing that the author put real care and thought into development, as opposed to those who've attempted the same for the sole purpose of bragging rights. It's nice knowing that when I boot a game with Higan it will work as the original developers intended, and that's something that other emulators can't guarantee.

I do recommend Higan for ROM hackers, though. All too often, people have designed hacks using something like ZSNES as a base for testing, without even putting any thought towards whether it will work on real hardware. On the emulation side of things, Higan is as close as one can get to that. I will respect a hack that works on real hardware much better than one that doesn't, no matter the grand scheme of said hack.

...and I can write c/c++ programming language just fine and have a pretty decent understanding of video game programming and such, I just don't feel the need to take it that far.

The thing with byuu is they always march to the beat of their own drummer.  That's just how it goes; their emulator their rules in a way.  Not that I agree with it but that is how they decided to do it.  They never made Higan for the community; it was always a personal passion project.  I find it ironic that byuu expects the wider emulation community to adopt Higan as a standard when he's so openly hostile to anyone that doesn't agree with them.

I totally understand the passion project aspect, I have a few of those myself. When it comes to presenting my results to the public, I can also handle constructive criticism, though... and that's where I begin to lose respect -- byuu doesn't even begin to consider that what he's done with the file/folder thing is just flat-out absurd, especially when he expects everyone to accept it.

Sometimes, the concept just isn't acceptable. It sounds good in theory, but is absolutely horrid in standard practice. It sucks to let go of these kinds of ideas, I've had to do it myself, but if one expects everyone at large to adopt, exceptions have to be made -- not the other way around in the case of the folder/file ordeal. There are much better ways to handle the situation and telling everyone to piss off most definitely isn't the right way to go about it when you're trying to get everyone to love you.

[obscurumlux01]

About snes emulation I see that nobody talks about SNESGT.
From what I've heard it's better than Snes9X in terms of accuracy.

What you've heard may or may not be accurate and 'hearsay' is rarely suitable for making a point.  However, I do get the gist of how you feel in your opinion that it may have better accuracy based on your own personal experiences with it.  I'd love some game-specific examples (like how byuu mentions that Speedy Gonzales game, the shadow from Air Strike Patrol, Timecop, and dozens of other bits in various games).

The reasons I will not consider using SNESGT right now are simple:

1 - Not open-source?  No thank you.  Nearly every piece of software I use (other than Windows itself & hardware drivers) is open-source on this gaming PC of mine.  I have a laptop that is 100% FLOSS with Ubuntu MATE on it primarily for banking & taxes & economic/sensitive transactions & work-related stuff.

2 - The 'terms of use' they have are outright absurd since GPL'd code doesn't have any such restrictions on where or how it can be used and LESS restrictions on redistribution and commercial use.  The 'terms of use' at the BOTTOM of the page (so you can easily miss/ignore them) are also in Japanese-only because 'fuck you non-Japanese people'.  The plugins were provided for other languages yet they couldn't ask the translator to also translate the terms of use on that website?  Yeah right

Spoiler

Pardon the Google Translate quality of this.

Please observe the following terms when used.
For software and other all that is here, if you make the download and run,
and you will have accepted the following terms unconditionally.
Prior to always run, please take a backup of your environment to perform the execution.
Please do not run on a commercial personal computer.
Please go at your own risk if you want to run.
　Absolutely on our side is not responsible for any damage or the like.
Basically reprint is free, but please go on you observe the following conditions.
Please contact because it does not matter post.
When you reprint, please do not modify the archive and run files, and the like.
Due to the nature of software, reprint to non-network magazines and books, etc. I have refused. Please be understanding.

So they're basically prohibiting that you run it on a 'commercial' PC which isn't clearly defined.  But if I get a 'business class' PC that is more expensive with better hardware, better warranty, and better support but use it at home then does that count?  Apparently it does under their definition.  Perhaps it is a translation issue and they meant 'commercial use' or 'for profit use' instead.  I'm gonna give them the benefit and presume they meant they are prohibiting commercial use.

Thing about GPL software is that not only can it be used unrestricted for commercial purposes but the license explicitly allows you to do so.  The only drawback is that if you modify the source code for your own use then you are required to provide a clear and accessible download to the modified source code to the general public without the need to explicitly ask permission for it first.  Nintendo sticks PARTS of the source code files on their Nintendo Japan website despite using English source code from English websites.  I haven't found any mention of the source code on the Nintendo of America website.  And unless you know Japanese you won't find it on the Nintendo of Japan website.  This is clearly a deliberate 'obfustication' attempt to make the source code release as difficult to find as possible.

They want to be contacted before you repost it anywhere (what!?) unless again the translation is wrong.  Since they don't seem to know English then what is the point of contacting them in the first place?  I don't get all the people saying 'do not modify the archive' when they could be far more explicit in saying 'do not alter the original files within the archive'.  But meh, it is their software code so w/e.

I'd much rather use open-source and GPL software because it respects my freedoms rather than chaining me to arbitrary and bass-ackwards decisions that will come back to bite them in the ass.

You want me to use closed-source software from someone that I don't know who doesn't speak or know English and doesn't give a shit about providing Terms of Use in English?  Are you serious?  Then on top of that you want me to use software that hasn't even hit a stable v1.0 yet and may be abandoned at any time with little to no way to contact the author and communicate with them if I don't know Japanese!?  Yeah no thanks.

[close]

[Rodimus Primal]

I think the last time I tried setting up SNESGT to try it out I got my virus protections going crazy. If the terms of use are in any way a telling sign, then I'm not even going to touch that one again.

I just downloaded Higan v095. I can say the GUI is improved, slightly. I can set hotkeys as I need, and I can tell it WHERE the library folder is. But then comes the issue with that. Icarus, which should NOT be a seperate program, converts the ROMs I import where the DEFAULT folder is for Higan, not where Higan's setting are. I NEVER leave stuff in the My Documents folder and that's where Icarus places the Library. Higan didn't know where to look until I copied the files. To the average user, that is so tedious and unneeded that I'm glad I only let it copy a couple ROMS for testing.

Then comes the video issue I have with Higan that I think I mentioned before. In full screen the game doesn't fill the 4:3 space (I don't stretch my screen like some do) It's rather annoying to play a game in a smaller space than other emulators allow. With that all of my trials of Higan have left me looking at the emulator only for testing purposes ONLY since it's as close to actual hardware as you can get in terms of PC emulators. I'm sticking to SNES9x. I still recommend that over any other SNES emulator and plead with people to leave ZSNES like people have done with Nesticle.

I haven't given up on puNES though. I have had no issues with Nestopia but I'd rather have a great working modern NES emulator that is still updated so that there isn't any compatibility issue with PC operating systems.

[helaku]

Good points obscurumlux01
To tell you the truth I don't use SNESGT very much, i've used it only a few times. My favorite emulator remains Snes9X.
So, about what you've said "However, I do get the gist of how you feel in your opinion that it may have better accuracy based on your own personal experiences with it" it's not correct. I didn't say it have better accuracy I only said what I've heard/read on some forums that SNESGT is better than Snes9X (I've talk about stable builds not test/wip/dev/git etc builds) which is correct or not based on their statements/tests.
In the future I would like to see some test on SNESGT about the accuracy for the sake of studying

Thanks!

P.S. I've done some quick tests using this page as reference http://floating.muncher.se/byuu/accuracy/ and here are the results for SNESGT emulation:
- Air Strike Patrol - fail (no shadow);
- Battle Blaze - fail (title screen);
- F-1 Grand Prix - pass (in game HUD);
- Harukanaru Augusta 3 - Master's New - pass (in game);
- Mecarobot Golf - pass (lesson screen);
- Moryo Senki Madara 2 - pass (reading text);
- SD Gundam G-Next - pass (scenario select);
- SNES Test Program - fail (burn-in test fail at APU section with error 16);
- Tetris Attack - pass (VS screen);
- Timecop - pass (distortion ship effect).

[obscurumlux01]

Just did some quick checks.
SNESGT seems to check out clean from VirusTotal.  That is pretty impressive, even by the standards of most of those vendors.

I actually use GNSF from that same website (though I got it from Zophars Domain) and it seems to work well without issues and no detected malware from VirusTotal.

I'm still not going to use SNESGT personally but it may be interesting to test things out with it compared to SNES9X and Higan.

[FallenAngel2387]

Well, now the only issue I have with Fusion is finding an emulator that doesn't screw with the graphics in Comix Zone. It never had graphic issues on the console.

[helaku]

Some new info: http://wiki.libretro.com/index.php?title=Nintendo_SNES_Core_Compatibility

[obscurumlux01]

Well, now the only issue I have with Fusion is finding an emulator that doesn't screw with the graphics in Comix Zone. It never had graphic issues on the console.

It has been so long since I played it that I never really looked at it in Kega.  You're right.  The shadows are all screwy for some reason.  What a shame.
Found several playthroughs but they all have the same obvious emulator bug.  Apparently even the Retron5 console (presumably with an original cartridge) has this issue!

Ok this is wierd.  Apparently this guy shows (on camera) plugging in the original cartridge into the original console and recording it.  Same shadow lines.  Maybe we're misremembering things!?  >_>

Need to confirm with someone else checking it on original hardware.  It has been so long since I've played this game on original hardware that I can't easily recall it with any degree of accuracy.  If someone wants to give it a whirl then I'd love to hear & see the results!

On the plus side I saw this beta version video on YouTube

[Lariria]

There's a few possibilities.

1. The shadows are glitched on every properly emulated, well, emulator, and on at least one hardware revision due to a bug in the game's code. This would mean emulators that show unglitched shadows are either doing it wrong, or emulating slightly different variations. Recall that the console had two major revisions in the U.S., a kazillion versions where it was either an add-on or embedded into something, and who knows how many minor revisions.

2. Somehow all the emulators are getting it wrong, and something just happened to be wrong with that particular console/cart setup in the linked video.

3. The shadows are glitched in one revision of the game, but not in others. I don't know if the game has any alt versions outside of country/region differences, or any undumped versions.

4. Something else I haven't thought of.

[FallenAngel2387]

That's just vertical dithering. Anything that shows graphics at their sharpest(like modern TV's, or emulators without a blur filter) will show that. It's like how awful Eternal Champions looks like, but it looked fine on the console connected to a CRT back in the day. Real quick in Fusion, select either TV Mode option(CVBS tends to be more readable with text), and you'll see it how you remember it.

The graphics issue I was talking about is that some objects will just glitch out, and the game won't look like it should.

[MegaManJuno]

Yep, the vertical lines in the Comix Zone shadows are a "trick" they used in conjunction with CRT TVs. Due to the way CRTs functioned, these created a fake translucency. The same can be seen with the waterfalls in Sonic.