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Author Topic: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ  (Read 29720 times)

Gideon Zhi

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #60 on: October 07, 2015, 02:23:02 pm »
Just tell the repro makers that you only want the game being played on a flash cart and that it is not to be sold. Hopefully there are cart makers out there who would respect these wishes.


patuli

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #61 on: October 07, 2015, 03:00:10 pm »
What I found funny here is that tremendous garbage like "dick nazis headless mario" and other trash like that; are not only allowed here, but encouraged to be made and upload, but a normal or high quality hack like this is not allowed and flag for removal.

This guy made very clear that he did what he did, in order to prevent repromakers of doing business with is work.
I remember a few years back Magno have a similar discusion for someone making repros for his Spanish seiken densetsu 3 work, Everyone knows that he doesn't own anything other than his translation or in this case his work, but seen all your work goes to some repro guy is very demotivate and discourage.

puzzledude

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #62 on: October 07, 2015, 03:08:57 pm »
Quote
What I found funny here is that tremendous garbage like "dick nazis headless mario" and other trash like that; are not only allowed here, but encouraged to be made and upload, but a normal or high quality hack like this is not allowed and flag for removal.
A+


Quote
I figured since I actually do have experience in emu development.
Nice, then you might know what the difference is between real hardware and emulation: save states, cheats, fast forwarding, bg layer disabling. If an emulator has these "strange" abbilities, that the real hardware hasn't, how difficult it is to throw in some more mappers. This is still real hardware emulation - on a different place. How is save state "invisible" and reading a data, shifted by 4MB, "not invisible".

Why can't I tell the emulator to read like real hardware, but staring from 400000, rather than 000000. This should be easy to implement in any emulator, while emulation accuracy is preserved. And Snes9x and Zsnes are doing that. Why can these emus do it, and Higan not?

I mean why do emu makers bother with "cheating" abbility - this completely breaks any game. Wrong value can crash the game. This is not invisible.


Quote
Just tell the repro makers that you only want the game being played on a flash cart and that it is not to be sold. Hopefully there are cart makers out there who would respect these wishes.
Already done with Parallel Remodel in a lovable and naive Legal Notice. Cart was on ebay 20 days after the release. Because you see, carters are like wilde beasts, like lions. And: "does the lion ask permission to kill a zebra". No, HE TAKES IT.

Does a cart making game abuser ask for permission to make carts. No, HE TAKES IT.

Can you guess the movie, from where this is from?


But with this game: "thy shall not do the cart".



Remember everyone, this exsotic format was only an "answer" to cart making of my previous projects. If my previous projects were not carted, I would never release a game in this format. It is a simple reaction to their action.

Makes me want to make a spoof hack entitled: romhacker vs. repro cart maker.



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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #63 on: October 07, 2015, 03:10:44 pm »
I agree with a lot of what Disch said. Puzzledude ethics on rom-hacking is delusional, egotistical, and downright scary, but if that's what he want to believe, that's on him. We should just leave this subject alone and talk abut the real topic at hand which is the actual hack itself........................which I can't play right now. I'll try it when I get home.

EDIT:

After reading the above. Something is really wrong with you  :huh:.

Disch

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #64 on: October 07, 2015, 03:19:33 pm »
I remember a few years back Magno have a similar discusion for someone making repros for his Spanish seiken densetsu 3 work, Everyone knows that he doesn't own anything other than his translation or in this case his work, but seen all your work goes to some repro guy is very demotivate and discourage.

I guess I don't identify with this.

ROM Hacking is fun.  It's about the process.  If you enjoy doing it, it kind of doesn't matter what happens with your work after it's done because the joy came from doing it.

Puzzledude was fawning over Conn's humility and willingness to let other people use his work in a previous post.  That I understand.  He does what he does because it's fun for him.  He doesn't care about getting credited because that's not what's important -- what's important is doing it.  I'm kind of the same way.  I've helped people on these boards when they ask questions, or need something to be debugged, or need a certain asm hack, or whatever.  And I'll help them out because the process is fun for me.  What they do with my work after they have it -- I couldn't care less.

I mean I wrote an entire music driver for some random guy to put in his hack -- and the hack never saw the light of day.  Do I have regrets?  Not a one.

And quite honestly... if you're in this scene for praise -- you're kind of in the wrong scene.  Not only do people typically not care about individual ROM hackers (unless they really stand out above the rest), but you also have to compete with guys like repro makers -- and other hackers stealing your work.  This is a culture of piracy, and when you get pirated, you have no recourse.  So if getting pirated bothers you, this is a bad place to put yourself.


I mean why do emu makers bother with "cheating" abbility - this completely breaks any game. Wrong value can crash the game. This is not invisible.

I've already explained this as best I can.  If you still don't understand, the only other thing I can tell you is to try to write an emulator.  You'll learn pretty quick the difference between fudging emulation accuracy (exlorom) and adding features that have nothing to do with the actual emulation (savestates).


EDIT:

few corrections to my word choice.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 03:29:59 pm by Disch »

puzzledude

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #65 on: October 07, 2015, 03:51:50 pm »
Quote
Puzzledude ethics on rom-hacking is delusional, egotistical, and downright scary, but if that's what he want to believe, that's on him. Something is really wrong with you.
So a hard-working person who never makes a dollar and is doing a lot and lot of sacrifices: mapping, testing, debugging, designing, uploading etc etc

and then puts all this hard work out For Absolutely Free, just because unknown people across the planet can enjoy,

is unethical and there's something wrong with him, but if someone is selling the work of others, than this is ethical.

It's like saying people who steal are ethical, and a hardworking  worker is unethical - he should be rather stealing to be ethical.

Don't you get it - someone who works like crazy and sacrifices his free time for others to enjoy, while he suffers, asking for no money, which by default belongs to him - since money is justified with work; thus work= money... Isn't this a definition of nobility.

No, that is not how I would define unethical, this how I would define a saint. Or a pro-bono lawyer maybe. Or a pro-bono doctor in Africa healing the sick.

I call these people (and romhackers are among them) IDEALISTS, who are doing general good, beyond any reasonable logic.

Every minute of playing, which you can enjoy on any video game, is equvivalent to hours and hours of working and specially testing - in this case done for free.

Where is Nintendo's new 3D Zelda for WiiU - already finished in 2014. Well - in debugging/testing phase. The entire company is debugging and testig for over a year. Their money will be well deserved! Imagine they would put the game out for free. Bliss. Well that's what we, romhackers are - idealists.

All that we want in return is some freakin respect. (Not a cart up our ass and not - "this game stinks"  and "there is something wrong with you" up our ass).

If I don't want, that a random bywalker wants to sell my car to a third person, why is this such a wrong wish. This is common sence, don't you think.



By the way: WHERE are cart makers, when a Dungeon needs to be made, WHERE are cart makers, when an ASM code needs to written, WHERE are cart makers, when a new GFX needs to be drawn, WHERE are cart makers, when you need to debug, WHERE are cart makers when exausting beta testing needs to be done.

SunGodPortal

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #66 on: October 07, 2015, 04:05:23 pm »
What a bunch of shit. This thread is fucking pathetic. I don't really know what else to say.
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Disch

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #67 on: October 07, 2015, 04:06:28 pm »
EDIT:  nevermind.  I was just being a dufus here  :laugh:

puzzledude

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #68 on: October 07, 2015, 04:15:02 pm »
Quote
After reading the above. Something is really wrong with you.
Your false assumption comes from the fact that you like carts. So if someone is against that, then he is according to you odd.

And by the way - I was quoting a line from a movie.


To all cart makers: The Glove Has Been Thrown!

To all cart makers: If you can undo my anti-cart lock, you are free to make as much carts of this game as you possibly can, I don't mind.


Quote
What a bunch of shit. This thread is f**g pathetic.
A+
But don't worry SGP, next time I simply won't make a so called News submission, so we can Not discusse this bunch of sh**t.



Quote
Where are you when they're making carts?
Preparing my samurai sword for them.

dougeff

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #69 on: October 07, 2015, 04:24:37 pm »
Let it goooo
Let it gooooo
Everybody just let it go. (Frozen reference)
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B.B.Link

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #70 on: October 07, 2015, 04:46:20 pm »
Your false assumption comes from the fact that you like carts. So if someone is against that, then he is according to you odd.


I told you before I don't support repros, nor do I give a shit about them selling GAME DEVELOPERS copyrighted material. If my Dr. mario world hack was popular enough to be repro I would be more flattered than angry, but there will be nothing I could do because we're all villians in the outside world, HACKER or REPROer alike. Your not the victim here. Its just that your obsession with these repros is rediculous.

But nothing I say is going to make a difference on this so i'm done.

Good luck in your fight, dawg.

tc

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #71 on: October 07, 2015, 05:24:28 pm »
So a hard-working person who never makes a dollar and is doing a lot and lot of sacrifices: mapping, testing, debugging, designing, uploading etc etc

and then puts all this hard work out For Absolutely Free, just because unknown people across the planet can enjoy,

is unethical and there's something wrong with him, but if someone is selling the work of others, than this is ethical.

It's like saying people who steal are ethical, and a hardworking  worker is unethical - he should be rather stealing to be ethical.

Don't you get it - someone who works like crazy and sacrifices his free time for others to enjoy, while he suffers, asking for no money, which by default belongs to him - since money is justified with work; thus work= money... Isn't this a definition of nobility.

No, that is not how I would define unethical, this how I would define a saint. Or a pro-bono lawyer maybe. Or a pro-bono doctor in Africa healing the sick.

I call these people (and romhackers are among them) IDEALISTS, who are doing general good, beyond any reasonable logic.

Every minute of playing, which you can enjoy on any video game, is equvivalent to hours and hours of working and specially testing - in this case done for free.

Where is Nintendo's new 3D Zelda for WiiU - already finished in 2014. Well - in debugging/testing phase. The entire company is debugging and testig for over a year. Their money will be well deserved! Imagine they would put the game out for free. Bliss. Well that's what we, romhackers are - idealists.

All that we want in return is some freakin respect. (Not a cart up our ass and not - "this game stinks"  and "there is something wrong with you" up our ass).

If I don't want, that a random bywalker wants to sell my car to a third person, why is this such a wrong wish. This is common sence, don't you think.



By the way: WHERE are cart makers, when a Dungeon needs to be made, WHERE are cart makers, when an ASM code needs to written, WHERE are cart makers, when a new GFX needs to be drawn, WHERE are cart makers, when you need to debug, WHERE are cart makers when exausting beta testing needs to be done.

Of course stealing other people's work is unethical. I don't think anybody here is debating that.

The central part of our argument, is that the method being used to stop repros isn't perfect. It limits the ability of people who are NOT cart makers and NOT stealing your work, from playing the game on their console or emulator of choice.

Myself I'd put hacks that don't confirm to SNES hardware on the grandfather clause in a sense. Encourage new works to only do so when necessary (some hacks may very well have a specific need for it). Removing them years after release doesn't feel right, I agree.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 05:31:57 pm by tc »

SunGodPortal

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #72 on: October 07, 2015, 05:44:20 pm »
Quote
but there will be nothing I could do because we're all villians in the outside world, HACKER or REPROer alike. Your not the victim here. Its just that your obsession with these repros is rediculous.

You don't see the difference between someone who is being creative and trying to protect their work and someone else who only cares about making money from someone else's work which they had nothing to do with? To me that is a key difference. Money changes everything. It's not like any of what we do here is completely legal, but trying to suggest that what a hacker does as a hobby (with no ill consequences) and what a repro maker does to scam people (the hacker and the buyer) is equal seems strange. They may not be that different in the eyes of the law, but does the law really matter in this context?

Let's say I'm watching TV one day and I hear a funny joke. I then proceed to tell said joke to my frineds with a few words changed. I'm sure most people would agree that that is perfectly acceptable. Now, let's say that I go out and try to sell said joke to my friends (and my enemies). Most people would see a clear difference there and that the latter is clearly unacceptable.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 06:01:37 pm by SunGodPortal »
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B.B.Link

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #73 on: October 07, 2015, 06:41:52 pm »
You don't see the difference between someone who is being creative and trying to protect their work and someone else who only cares about making money from someone else's work which they had nothing to do with? To me that is a key difference. Money changes everything. It's not like any of what we do here is completely legal, but trying to suggest that what a hacker does as a hobby (with no ill consequences) and what a repro maker does to scam people (the hacker and the buyer) is equal seems strange. They may not be that different in the eyes of the law, but does the law really matter in this context?

Let's say I'm watching TV one day and I hear a funny joke. I then proceed to tell said joke to my frineds with a few words changed. I'm sure most people would agree that that is perfectly acceptable. Now, let's say that I go out and try to sell said joke to my friends (and my enemies). Most people would see a clear difference there and that the latter is clearly unacceptable.

And you don't see the difference between me not caring about any of this and puzzledude obsession with the repro stuff. Finished.

SunGodPortal

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #74 on: October 07, 2015, 07:06:16 pm »
Quote
And you don't see the difference between me not caring about any of this and puzzledude obsession with the repro stuff. Finished.

hahaha Then why offer your 2 cents if you "have no dogs in the race"?

Besides, if you take into account how much time it takes to make a complete hack and how much time and effort goes into hacking this game specifically I believe Puzzledude's attitude toward repro nerds is warranted. Why wouldn't someone be upset if they worked on something for hundreds of hours for their own creativity and expression only to see someone else profit from it (while they receive nothing but complaints about the format, fufufu)? While I still believe what he has done here is a bit strange and I would not do the same thing myself, I can understand perfectly well why he would do as such. Especially since I also hack said game and it is a bitch. But then again, you don't care about any of this. So why are you here again?
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goldenband

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #75 on: October 07, 2015, 07:52:22 pm »
You don't see the difference between someone who is being creative and trying to protect their work and someone else who only cares about making money from someone else's work which they had nothing to do with?

The problem is that when ROM hackers or translators start taking measures to "protect" their work, it claims ownership of something that by definition isn't theirs to begin with. Derivative works like ROM hacks and fan translations belong to the original IP owner from the moment of their creation, and no one else, and it doesn't matter if you've put in five minutes or a thousand hours.

I've repeatedly seen the exact same thing with concert bootleg traders, anime fansubbers, people who release public domain movies, and so on. Many of those people are paranoid about unauthorized use of "their" work and take drastic, over-the-top countermeasures, but seem oblivious to the fact that they have neither legal or moral standing to claim any kind of ownership over anything they've done. It literally doesn't belong to them!

It's also irritating when people repeatedly point out the existence of flash carts as a perfectly legitimate, non-profit way to play games on real hardware, and that valid point gets ignored. And quite frankly, outside of a handful of games, most repro makers are much more interested in translations/localizing than hacks anyway. That's where the profit is -- making fancy reproductions of translated games, especially RPGs.

If I wanted to make a hack that would defeat repro makers, a much better option would be to add required code that uses the CX4 chip. No one's going to sacrifice a Mega Man X2/X3, or even the corresponding Rockman carts, just to make a repro of a Zelda hack. Plus people could still play it on real hardware with the right flash cart, so it's win-win.

But I also think that worrying about repros is silly and neurotic, and like others in this thread, I'd be flattered and amused if someone made a repro of something I'd worked on. I've had things to which I own the legitimate copyright show up in all kinds of random places on the Internet, and I could either throw a hissy fit over the loss of control, or just enjoy knowing that people are interested in my work. Guess which option I picked?

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #76 on: October 07, 2015, 08:18:26 pm »
And quite frankly, outside of a handful of games, most repro makers are much more interested in translations/localizing than hacks anyway. That's where the profit is -- making fancy reproductions of translated games, especially RPGs.
Pretty much what I thought. No matter how good this IQ test hack could be, I honestly doubt somebody would bother to make a cart. It's not like repro makers are running low on other kinds of hacks that would actually appeal a broader public.
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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #77 on: October 07, 2015, 09:59:19 pm »
So why are you here again?
I'm here because I wanted to voice my opinion on puzzledude antics, Why are you here, to continue to wipe puzzledude's ass?

EDIT:

You know what, lets step outside and discuss this >:D. Fistticuffs style.

SunGodPortal

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #78 on: October 07, 2015, 11:17:23 pm »
Quote
I'm here because I wanted to voice my opinion on puzzledude antics, Why are you here, to continue to wipe puzzledude's ass?

hahaha Just showing my support. :)

Quote
EDIT:

You know what, lets step outside and discuss this >:D. Fistticuffs style.

We could, but I don't think either of us has arms long enough to reach the other.

EDIT: I missed this so I'll go ahead and reply here.

Quote
The problem is that when ROM hackers or translators start taking measures to "protect" their work, it claims ownership of something that by definition isn't theirs to begin with. Derivative works like ROM hacks and fan translations belong to the original IP owner from the moment of their creation, and no one else, and it doesn't matter if you've put in five minutes or a thousand hours.

Your reply indicates that you've totally missed the point of what I was saying. A post ago I said:

Quote
It's not like any of what we do here is completely legal, but trying to suggest that what a hacker does as a hobby (with no ill consequences) and what a repro maker does to scam people (the hacker and the buyer) is equal seems strange. They may not be that different in the eyes of the law, but does the law really matter in this context?

Which means I don't give a shit about a legal argument. The only ones that can be made are opposed to all of our interests here. Therefore, who cares? Not relevant. My argument is not about legality, it's about someone who is scamming someone else (repro makers scamming ROM hackers for personal profit) being losers and not wanting to support them. How is that difficult for people to understand?
« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 11:57:18 pm by SunGodPortal »
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Erockbrox

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #79 on: October 08, 2015, 12:05:55 am »
The only reason why I'm supporting Puzzledude on this issue is because I want to gain his trust so that one day he will send me a copy of the IQ test hack that is compatible with real hardware so that I can then make repros of my own and sell those.