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Author Topic: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ  (Read 29886 times)

Disch

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2015, 07:02:42 pm »
I never said you couldn't create a cart which supports this addressing.  I said there wasn't one.

You can create a CD addon for the NES if you want to.  But that never actually existed, so emu authors are not likely to emulate it.

Again, Exlorom is effectively a custom mapper that was fabricated for the purposes of ROM hacking.  It falls outside the realm of emulating hardware.

In the ROM hacking world -- that's all fine and good and it may seem logical that every emulator should support it -- but the majority of the emu development scene simply does not agree.  Which is why this hack doesn't work in most emus.

SunGodPortal

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2015, 07:51:18 pm »
Quote
Again, Exlorom is effectively a custom mapper that was fabricated for the purposes of ROM hacking.  It falls outside the realm of emulating hardware.

In the ROM hacking world -- that's all fine and good and it may seem logical that every emulator should support it -- but the majority of the emu development scene simply does not agree.  Which is why this hack doesn't work in most emus.

Is it that they don't agree or that having to accomodate it is not common and therefore it is skipped over because in the grand scheme it isn't that important? Some faux-Nintendo consoles don't support certain games but it's likely not because the designers were opposed to certain mappers, but were just being lazy.
War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength.

Disch

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2015, 07:59:29 pm »
It's more that emulating cartridge hardware is a lot more complex than most ROM hackers think it is.  Especially since SNES ROMs tell you nothing about the cartridge layout.

EDIT:

I actually just talked to MKendora on IRC about this and we both pretty much seem to agree that the way most emus handle cartridge emulation is retarded.  He actually proposed an idea that would allow for Exlorom to exist without sacrificing accuracy which I totally agreed with, but I didn't think there was really a way to effectively implement it with how SNES ROMs are commonly distributed.


Bottom line -- this isn't as simple of a problem as puzzledude might think.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 08:05:59 pm by Disch »

Erockbrox

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #43 on: October 07, 2015, 01:25:36 am »
The life of a Repro-maker:

- New Zelda IQ hack on the market, but can't use it $0.00

- Hires a programmer to enable using the game on a real cart $300

- Orders parts and buys old Super Nintendo carts for the new games $500

- Making money off of another persons hard work... priceless!



B.B.Link

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #44 on: October 07, 2015, 03:00:03 am »
 :huh:

You really need to let that "You vs Piracy" and "I'm the victim" shit go.

Between this and that "seminar" thread, it sounds like you really need to step away from ROM hacking for a while. People are going to repro no matter what you do and you're not entirely innocent in the matter either. You may took the time to create the ROM hack, but its STILL the original game developers who created the code that you're rearranging, which is yet again a grey area issue on legal here. How do think they feel (if they gave a shit) you messing with their hard work? Piracy annoys me too, but the war you have against it is a loosing one. Repro comes with rom hacking and if don't like it then maybe you should try Game Maker or Zelda Classic (is that still alive?), or simply walk away for this because its clearly eating you alive.

As for the hack, it won't boot on my Retroarch or Snes9xGX for the modded Wii, and since I don't sit on my comp to play hacks, I can't say anything about it.

EDIT:

OK got it to boot on and old version of Snes9xGX I still had on the SD card to play SMW hacks with broken music. I'll test it tomorrow.

SunGodPortal

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #45 on: October 07, 2015, 03:44:38 am »
Quote
Between this and that "seminar" thread, it sounds like you really need to step away from ROM hacking for a while. People are going to repro no matter what you do and you're not entirely innocent in the matter either. You may took the time to create the ROM hack, but its STILL the original game developers who created the code that you're rearranging, which is yet again a grey area issue on legal here. How do think they feel (if they gave a shit) you messing with their hard work? Piracy annoys me too, but the war you have against it is a loosing one. Repro comes with rom hacking and if don't like it then maybe you should try Game Maker or Zelda Classic (is that still alive?), or simply walk away for this because its clearly eating you alive.

So he released his hack in a format that makes life more difficult for repro makers. Big deal. If this is the thanks a person gets for releasing a ROM hack (a thread where people are whining about formats and next to nothing is said about the game itself) maybe we should all quit and just shut down the site.
War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength.

tc

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #46 on: October 07, 2015, 04:30:26 am »
The philosophical side doesn't really matter here.
By definition of the phrase, a properly behaved SNES hack can, does, and must be able to operate on a SNES. Making the potential ability to create repros inevitable (no matter how difficult/impractical).

SunGodPortal

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #47 on: October 07, 2015, 04:51:17 am »
Quote
The philosophical side doesn't really matter here.
By definition of the phrase, a properly behaved SNES hack can, does, and must be able to operate on a SNES. Making the potential ability to create repros inevitable (no matter how difficult/impractical).

You stated that the philosophical side didn't matter, then followed it up with your philosophy on what constitutes a ROM hack. :P
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Erockbrox

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #48 on: October 07, 2015, 06:31:24 am »
If you are not happy with a repro maker making your hack then why not send them a private message asking for them not to use your work? But see, its all about demand and supply.

There are people out there who really enjoy playing rom hacks on an original snes cart so thats why repro makers make the carts. People are simply willing to pay for it.

The best thing you can do if you enjoy hacks on original hardware is just get an SD2SNES. This is what I did and it was a great decision. But then again you can't really collect hacked games if they are on a SD card if you really want to display them on your shelf.

Just tell the repro makers that you only want the game being played on a flash cart and that it is not to be sold. Hopefully there are cart makers out there who would respect these wishes.

In my opinion another option is just to sell the game yourself.

If you made a hack then make up a bunch of carts and just sell the game yourself and beat the repro makers to the punch. After you have made a respectable amount of money off of it and because you can take pre-orders and get the game out before the repro makers even have a chance then you can make the best of this situation.

Do it like this:

- Don't release your game for download yet
- Tell everyone you are making a hack
- Tell everyone that you are selling your hack
- Take preorders, say 200 people want a cart
- Make the carts your self with your hack
- Mail them all out at once
- At least you got something for your hard work by getting some money

Only after the game has been mailed out could someone rip the rom from the physical game and then host it online. For example say one of your customers was a repro makers and wanted to sell your game. So what if they put the rom online, you have already earned your initial money so at this point you just then post it online for free.

Or maybe host it for download on your own personal website and ask for donations when they download the patch.

And who really cares about these legal issues anyway? Here is a short story from me.

When I was young I got an NES with some games. Then I got an SNES with some games. Then I got an N64 with some games. Then I got a GBA with some games. These were all purchased from the stores as new items, not second hand. I and my parents have given Nintendo lots of money over many years and I personally feel as if its a slap in the face to a consumer who all they want to do is make a zelda snes hack and release it on it internet.

You know, Nintendo isn't perfect either. What about Shaq-Fu snes and Super-Man 64? Those games were sold by Nintendo and were so bad that they basically ripped off anyone who bought them. Nintendo Seal of Quality? That seal means nothing other than "give us your money now".

So selling millions of copies of crap games to people is legal yet if a person makes a modification to one of them its illegal? What if I hacked Super-Man 64 an order to make it better and to actually make it a good game? Is that illegal?

Nintendo should realize that these old games are nothing more than abandon ware and that they should personally offer these games on their download stores for FREE just as a courtesy.

Knock knock Nintendo Donkey Kong isn't the most popular game anymore like it was back in 1981. Dumba$$ company.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 07:00:54 am by Erockbrox »

zhade

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #49 on: October 07, 2015, 06:44:15 am »
im stuck in the second dungeon, the one with the holes everywhere, I managed to progress a bit but cant seem to find a way to get the second key which is probably in the top left chest under the "PUZZ" room. I thought I was making progress when I got the big key but all I managed to get with it is a full heart container, never have been so disapointed at finding a heart countainer :P. I must have tried all holes combination so there clearly is something I missed or cant figure out.. I guess I got low IQ  :huh:
I didnt really understand the first dungeon, I kind of wandered through it without knowing where I was going and ended up finding my way through. The 3rd dungeon looks fun with the block puzzles but I want to finish the second first but its been an hour now since I got the heart container and im going crazy  :banghead:

Edit:
I dont know if there is a spoiler policy since this is the front page news thread for the hack but I guess if someone is willing to help me he should send me a pm so that people dont get spoiled.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 06:49:34 am by zhade »

puzzledude

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #50 on: October 07, 2015, 07:16:55 am »
Quote
im stuck in the second dungeon, the one with the holes everywhere, I managed to progress a bit but cant seem to find a way to get the second key which is probably in the top left chest under the "PUZZ" room.
From the entrance go up and drop down the most upper hole you can reach. Drop down a few more times on the neighbour holes. You are now in the room with big holes, you are on the left side of the room. Perform a dash jump (run right with shoes and the bounce will take you across the pit). Drop down the very left pit. You will auto drop in the next room to the key.




------------------------------------
Just so that everyone knows:
The user obscurumlux01 has flagged this hack as Noncompliant and the staff might remove this work-of-art hack from this site.

Probable Reason for his act: the hack is not compatible with his reprocarts and thus can not be soled in his Reprocart-making piracy store.

So basically if he can not fill his pockets with money, based on someone else's work, the hack is no good and must be deleted.


The hack however IS emulator specific, which is apparently in conflict with this site's policy.

BUT I don't make emulators. Every emu could easily add this STANDARD EXLOROM MAPPER to it and make the game compatible with it.

But emu makers tend to mimic real hadware so perfectly, that they are blind to this STANDARD FORMAT FOR ADVANCED ROMHACKING.

And because emu makers are blind to this STANDARD FORMAT FOR ADVANCED ROMHACKING, is what makes this game emulator-specific. Some people, like makers of Snes9x as well as Fusoya, are fortunatelly not blind, which is basically why you can play this game.


IMPORTAINT
This hack by Fusoya uses the same/similar format!
http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/11/

His however is Exhirom 6MB, supported only by Snes9x and Zsnes (like my hack - since in my case the emus included are also Snes9x and Zsnes).

Take a look at the review of his hack. The title is "One of the best".

Are we going to remove "One of the best" hacks from this site just because of the way it is mapped.



JUST SO YOU KNOW
To change the mapping of the hack back to Lorom is EASY, just as is EASY to add Exlorom mapper support to all emulators.


The main reason of Fusoya's and my choice of hack mapping was to STOP ILLEGAL CART MAKING and obviously also to prevent others to edit the game further.

But apparently IF YOU WANT TO STOP THE PIRATES and other hack abusers, it's a crime.


I agree that the game, which is emulator specific is questionable! and looses audience! and looses credibility! and compatibility, but THE REPRO HORROR HAS BEEN STOPPED.

It is because of my game that Romhacking.net WAS NOT USED AS A VEHICLE FOR PIRACY. Just following the site's Rules.

It is because of all other hacks, which are compatible with real hardware, that Romhacking.net WAS USED AS A VEHICLE FOR PIRACY.

If however playing a freeware game on a freeware emulator is a crime ALSO, why isn't the entire site banned then (this could easily be done, since Nintendo brought down sites). But only the sites which host roms! They tend to "leave" the sites such as this one with PATCHES only.

They are heavily against any emulation though, but that goes mainly for up-to-date consoles! not 20 year old extinct game, from which they made no more money of.




We could however put the removal of both hacks to the POLL. Let's vote, like in any democracy:
-Do you want IQ and TLC removed from this site (since they ARE emulator specific, since they use advanced romhacking methods) or not?


PS
The games just use another mapper (ironically this is not even a format but only a rom Expansion), otherwise the code itself is completely based on original game and thus compatible with real hardware - the hardware just doesn't know where to look, isn't that ironic.


October 07, 2015, 08:01:00 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Quote
If you made a hack then make up a bunch of carts.
Erock, you know better that I despise hardware in general. The hardware is the devil - my oppinion. The hardware is what brings the grey area of romhacking into the black area of romhacking (no area is white though).


Quote
You really need to let that "You vs Piracy" and "I'm the victim" shit go.

Between this and that "seminar" thread, it sounds like you really need to step away from ROM hacking for a while. People are going to repro no matter what you do and you're not entirely innocent in the matter either. You may took the time to create the ROM hack, but its STILL the original game developers who created the code that you're rearranging, which is yet again a grey area issue on legal here. How do think they feel (if they gave a shit) you messing with their hard work? Piracy annoys me too, but the war you have against it is a loosing one. Repro comes with rom hacking and if don't like it then maybe you should try Game Maker or Zelda Classic (is that still alive?), or simply walk away for this because its clearly eating you alive.
Not a chance. I'm just getting started. And by the way not only can we engage pirates, we have WON.

Me and Fusoya - hyperhackers, who made it, and put an end to repro cart making. Namely, the IQ is not only Exlorom, it also has a super anti-repro-cart Lock (ignored by Emus!), which makes the game completely incompatible with real hadware - and yet emulates the game normally. But you need an Emulator in any case, just not hardware, because hardware is the devil.

Me and Fusoya, the pioneers of a new age, where romhacking is safe from repro abuse. NOTE: with this new format Conker DEMO hack and Oracle of Secrets DEMO were locked also (in this case to prevent data extraction).

In fact I can do any existing or future SNES Lorom hacks in this "format" and thus allow the author to stop the abuse of their hacks, if this is their wish.

Makes me want to Open a Subforum on Zeldix (where the IQ hack mapper IS allowed, why wouldn't it be) to host Patches for all other quality ROMs in this format - current and future.

With this a new subforum for all hacks of this sort would emerge.

The author of ANY Lorom SNES HACK can thus, because of me, choose:
-release unlocked (maximum compatibility, but carts possible)
-release locked (normally played on specific emus only, prevents carts and prevents data extraction and any editing of the rom all together)

Note
the author could also choose to release the locked to the public and unlocked to his friends!


It's the dawn of the new era.



Not to mention what you can do to a game, which allows 8MB, you can make prodigy ASM, GFX, levels etc etc, but obviously based on real game, since this is what this art is all about. Don't make me laugh with Zelda classic and make-from-scratch methods - read the title of this site - all the work is strictly based on original game!
Making games from scratch is something completely different!



By the way, I'm thinking of bringing out the so called MIMIC emulator, my own (recoded) personal emulator, which will Not support save stating, cheating and bg layer disableing, to allow players to play, as if on real hardware (litterally!). And of course with ALL freakin mappers! (there's only 4 of them Lorom, Hirom, Exlorom, Exhirom, how difficult is that, seriously). So you can play any SNES hack and game, that ever existed, on it.



October 07, 2015, 08:16:11 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
PPS

If the hack gets removed, you can always get it here:
http://www.zeldix.net/f15-complete-hacks


where it IS "allowed", why wouldn't it be, seriously.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 08:21:40 am by puzzledude »

tc

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #51 on: October 07, 2015, 09:59:52 am »
Deviating from conventions Nintendo expected developers to follow isn't a crime. Misguided or unnecessary perhaps, that depends on the situation.

The cart makers are infringing on both the original creators' work, and any distinctly definable new elements hacked in.
You should have grounds to defend yourself using the law.

You stated that the philosophical side didn't matter, then followed it up with your philosophy on what constitutes a ROM hack. :P

That's why I specified SNES. The hardware variances between SNES consoles are rigid enough, it's safe to say when a hack isn't going to work on any SNES.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 10:31:30 am by tc »

Disch

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #52 on: October 07, 2015, 11:11:49 am »
So puzzledude is a ROM hacker illegally taking someone else's work and using it to their own end... while simultaneously complaining about repro makers illegally taking someone else's work and using it to their own end.

The irony astounds me.


If an unauthorized party is selling your work, you can sic the law on them.  Oh wait... no you can't... because you don't have the copyright on a ROM hack because ROM hacks are just as illegal as repro carts.  Talk about the pot complaining that the kettle is black.


Quote
this work-of-art hack from this site.
[snip]
because emu makers are blind ([even though I know nothing about making emulators])
[snip]
Me and Fusoya, the pioneers of a new age,

FFS, The ego on this guy.


This all suddenly makes perfect sense.



EDIT:

Also, I tried this hack.

Level 1 is basically just systematically trying every path until you find the one that leads you to the exit.  It's more of a teleport maze than a puzzle... and one that can really only be solved by trial and error.

I quit before I got very far, but it sounds like level 2 is the same idea but with pits instead of teleports.

Not exactly an IQ test.  More a test of patience.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 11:36:52 am by Disch »

puzzledude

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #53 on: October 07, 2015, 11:34:38 am »
The game was released as a PATCH, which requires for you to OWN the original, to able to enjoy this freeware "add on". The rom was never released. A cart is a ROM, the patch is not.


Quote
is a ROM hacker illegally taking someone else's work and using it to their own end
Without making money or hurting the original authors whatsoever, since they already made money on this game (8 million copies soled by the way). We are making no profit what so ever, and don't release any Actual copyrighted material.

By the way: the PATCH which was published contains My Personal Work only, without the original code. I OWN the code (hacked part) which I released.

A cart maker doesn't own anything, Not the original, Not the modified code. They don't even own the phisical cart, since the cart was taken from some other game. They don't even own the freakin manual (booklet) or the paper-box the game is in.

I never released anything owned by original authors - not even the picture of Link on a paper.

All I released were ones and zeros of my personal work. I own this code. (Isn't software beautiful.)



A cartmaker however is hurting the original authors. He is distribuing/selling roms, we do not sell, not even distribute roms, not even pictures of copyrighted game-heros. Patch is useless if you don't OWN the original.

With repro cart you don't need to own the original.


Quote
because ROM hacks are just as illegal as repro carts
Yes, they are, however the ROM hack was never released, and it never will be (the irony of romhacking).

By the way, I personally own the code, which I released.
I have copyrights of my code and my puzzle designs are under my copyright and the new item Morning star, which is a prodigy ASM, is owned by Conn. Original game did not have this item, nor the puzzles. The original game was simply used to "run" the whole thing.


That's the main difference between GREY and BLACK, don't you see the difference in colour.

Disch

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #54 on: October 07, 2015, 11:42:30 am »
EDIT - you know what?  Forget it.

Why am I even bothering.

You know as much about copyright law as you do about emulator development:  none.
It's easy to make yourself out to be the victim when you completely make shit up and misrepresent the law.

I'm not going to argue with some kid half my age whose ego is so big he can't even see he doesn't have the first clue what he's talking about.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 12:13:43 pm by Disch »

puzzledude

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #55 on: October 07, 2015, 12:37:29 pm »
Quote
I'm not going to argue with some kid half my age whose ego is so big he can't even see he doesn't have the first clue what he's talking about.
I can never be half your age since then you could almost be a grandfather.

And I do know what I'm talking about. Every sane person would know, that you can not sell, what you don't own. You can not sell, if someone else has made it - let's forget the law - this is common sense.

Can I sell your car. No I can't. Can I distribute, what I personally made - yes I can. (I'm not even selling it). Ie a patch.

Can I distribute, what I don't own, ie the code of the original. No I can't. Thus I can not link to a ROM, not original and not modified. And I can not make a cart obviosuly (contains the rom).

Every sane person using common sense would see, that selling of carts is without doubt wrong, while distribution of Patches is not wrong or (a lot less) wrong.
-----------


Also, I would appreciate, that next time I make a release of a hard-work project, that you don't pollute the topic with obscure debates on something so irrelevant as a mapping method of the ROM and endless debate over how much legal/illegal romhacking is. We know how things stand.

Regarding the ego. It was not my intention, it was a simple reaction to people who don't appreciate the gift given to them.

Do you know, how much "sacrifice" was neccesary to finish this project: developing, designing, algorithmic brainstorming, remapping, prodigy ASM endless debugging, endless testing, emulator recoding etc etc. Every sane person would give up long ago.

And then Patch making, uploading, submitting, linking, and then giving it away For Free.

Excuse me if, as a reward for all this, I don't want to be backstabbed Again by seeing my game soled on ebay on a illegal cart... Again.

« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 12:48:44 pm by puzzledude »

badinsults

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #56 on: October 07, 2015, 12:41:10 pm »
This hack looks interesting, but I think that creating an artificial limitation so that it works only in a specific emulator is pretty silly. Since I got my SD2SNES, I hardly ever use emulators for playing SNES games. It is pretty shocking that hacks are still being made that do not conform to hardware, especially given that accurate emulators exist now, and flash carts to play on real hardware are easy to get.

Disch

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #57 on: October 07, 2015, 12:54:14 pm »
prodigy ASM

Yes, yes.  We all know you're God's gift to ROM hacking.

puzzledude

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #58 on: October 07, 2015, 01:12:13 pm »
Like I said before, this Great hack by Fusoya:
http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/11/


uses the same strategy of mapping (his is Exhirom 6MB, mine is Exlorom 8MB, both are in the domain of the above 4MB Expansion, Exhirom is even more exsotic!). Both ARE specific-emulator hacks. Why is his game not flagged or discussed to death on the mapper choice?!

His hack is here since 2003! and the community had no problems whatsoever with it!
-------------------


Quote
prodigy ASM
Yes, yes. We all know you're God's gift to ROM hacking.
The ASM was written by Conn. I actually don't do ASM, but everything else. You should have seen the code he wrote for the Morning Star New weapon. Months of struggling and brainstorming on his part. This is really not ego, it is a fact. I'm not the author of ASM.

And now Link can give those Morning Star knights their payback! Because they are now not the only ones with this awesome weapon (which is actually also a Hookhot, so it is a Hookshot upgrade).

Also ASM - ice rod freezing water to walk over - which is impossible to do. Multipushable blocks, water block (makes water trail, but can not push a block if standing in water), brown block (can not push block over brown trail but can walk over it), stone block (clones another block over pushed block in the direction pushed).

Prodigy is actually a mild word of what wizardness Conn did to Alttp hacking community (not even all ASM could be used in this game). On the other forum he was given the "rank" Zelda Legend.

Again, this is not me, but him. No egos here, just facts.

Funny part - when I wanted to credit him for being in charge of ASM - he said "not neccesary to credit me".

Disch

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #59 on: October 07, 2015, 02:16:25 pm »
Why is his game not flagged or discussed to death on the mapper choice?!

I didn't flag your hack.

Honestly I don't care that your hack doesn't conform to hardware.  I've stated this numerous times.  If you're okay with the resulting trade-off, which it appears you are, then fine.  I really don't give a shit.


The only point at which this really turned into an argument was when you started speculating about the future of emulators when you have no experience in emu development.  So you were effectively talking out of your ass, and I was trying to put emulation in historical context to show you that your predicted future is not a likely one.  I figured since I actually do have experience in emu development, I might be able to shed some light on that for you -- but that just made you super defensive for whatever reason.