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Author Topic: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ  (Read 29889 times)

Disch

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2015, 01:18:56 am »
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I mean, all of the mappers are individual files on the Powerpak, so wouldn't that make them a software thing?

Power Pak uses an FPGA, which is essentially programmable hardware.  It does not have an additional processor which means any software that runs has to run off the NES's 6502 -- meaning it would be impossible to emulate the mappers in software.  Can't run a software emulator on the 6502 when you need it to run the actual game.

Likely the bootup code for the PowerPak checks to see if there were any updates to the POWERPAK folder, and if so, triggers the FPGA to update itself be updated.  Presumably this update would cause a delay... or a slower bootup the first time after updating your mapper files.  It's been a while since I've updated my PowerPak so I can't remember if that actually happens or not.

SunGodPortal

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2015, 01:41:11 am »
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Power Pak uses an FPGA, which is essentially programmable hardware.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

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It's been a while since I've updated my PowerPak so I can't remember if that actually happens or not.

Usually for me, any time I update or change any of the files something like "card read error" will flash on the screen for a split-second before it proceeds to load as normal (or at least appears to).

EDIT: Play The Legend of Zelda - IQ Test.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 02:01:20 am by SunGodPortal »
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puzzledude

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2015, 06:41:02 am »
PART1

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But I don't feel like configuring a whole new emu.
Other than to select which button does what there is nothing else to do. It is a matter of seconds.

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Exlorom IS supported by Higan. Star Ocean runs just fine.
No. Exlorom is NOT supported by Higan (I tested this out, not even 5MB Exlorom is loading), since Star Ocean is Not Exlorom. Star Ocean is simply a SA-1 6MB rom. It is not really the size alone, it is the mapping. Original hardware did not have the Exlorom or Exhirom mappings.

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The problem is that Exlorom apparently caps out at 6 MB.
No it doesn't. There is no mapping difference between 5MB, 6MB, 7MB and 8MB Exloroms. Higan doesn't run any size of Exlorom or Exhirom.

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You are not obeying that restriction. So what you are doing is not Exlorom. But is some custom thing that is totally fabricated.
Ho, ho, ho (and it is not even Christmas).
Wrong all the way. What I'm doing is exactly Exlorom!

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and never actually existed on any SNES cartridge.
You got that right though. Exlorom never existed on real hardware, since this format is the future and was invented right after the millenia, around 2001, SPECIFICALLY FOR ROMHACKS.

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That kind of thing will not be supported in future emulators. If anything, emulators will go out of their way not to support it as more emphasis tends to be put on accuracy as time goes on.
The Exlorom format IS THE FUTURE. It is the real hardware, which is extinct and outdated with its old Lorom format. Real SNES hardware died in the 90s.

How difficult it is to make an emu, which runs like original hardware and also throw in something like save stating! (not supported by real hardware!) and BG layer deactivation (not supported by real hardware!). How difficult it is to add another mapping system. I checked the source code of Snes9x - easy to do).

--------------------------------

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Read the page you linked to. Nowhere does it say Exlorom or Exhirom support 8MB. It specifically says 6MB. The code in official Snes9x was not a mistake -- it was implementing proper behavior.
The code in official snes9x WAS a mistake. Look at the source code (a dumb mistake was done, a "typo" basically). Snes9x 1.48 supported 8MB Exloroms, and 1.51 suddenly not. Fusoya corrected this with no more than a cuple of lines changed (to correct this "typo").

Standatd Lorom size is 0-4MB. Exlorom starts the code at 4MB (while having 0-4 empty for repointing data into it). Can't you sum 4+4? That makes it 8MB, don't you think... specially if Hirom.

So:
Lorom 1MB, expands to 5MB Exlorom
Lorom 2MB, expands to 6MB Exlorom
Lorom 3MB, expands to 7MB Exlorom
Lorom 4MB, expands to 8MB Exlorom

Hirom 0.5MB, expands to 5MB Exhirom
Hirom 1MB, expands to 6MB Exhirom
Hirom 2MB, expands to 8MB Exhirom

PS Star Ocean is not either of the above, since it doesn't have a Lorom or Hirom base.


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The definitive test here would be to take an existing ExLoROM cartridge.
Which doesn't exist, since it was never made, since the format was invented around 2001, Specifically for Advanced Romhacking.

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ExLoROM doesn't support 8MB.
You clearly don't know what Exlorom is. How many original games are 4MB - so many 8MB Exloroms can be made.

Don't you get it - this is an "EXPANSION" method, not a standalone format.
Exlorom means= expanded Lorom, so something that used to be Lorom.
Ex can also refer to "previous", so "previously" a Lorom.

Star Ocean was nothing "previously". It simply is a Lorom, which has more than 4MB.


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If not? You're busted and your hack gives a big 'FU' to emulation accuracy.

I'm assuming you did not perform this test -- so at best you are playing with fire. And again... since no emulator actually officially supports this... that's a huge red flag telling me that this hack is not legit.
It is very legit and Unique as well. You know what they say: the best is also the most rare. Exlorom was invented for advanced romhacking after real hardware was already being replaced by 64bit era.

And what is an official emulator? All emulators are unofficial and based on the statements of original author an act of piracy.

And don't make me laugh with the "emulation accuracy", an invisible thing, which is completely irrelevant, since no normal person can see the difference between hyper-minor performance changes between real hardware and proper SNES emulation on PC (or any well designed emu).

However some other (non PC) emus really are poor, like DS SNES emu. This thing really is a mess. But such poor emulation performance is due to average nature of people who made it.



October 06, 2015, 06:41:24 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
PART2

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This hack will not run on my RetroN5 and I suspect it won't run on flash carts as well. That's the future of 8/16-bit emulation so it not being compatible with those devices cuts out a portion of the audience.
The devices that you mentioned support only what the original hardware supports, since they are all phisical devices, designed for original SNES games.


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If it runs on real hardware, it's legit. If it doesn't, it's bogus.
And how do you play a hack on real hardware. You need to make a cart then, which is by defalut an illegal act of cart making.

If it runs on real hardware, it's illegal. Because then you can make a cart and sell it (and it works). If it doesn't run on real hardware, it's legal.

If it runs on real hardware, it's old and outdated. If it doesn't, it is advanced, unique and futuristic.



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By going against what SNES hardware dictates, this hack is destroying its playability.
A very true and unfortunate side effect of keeping things legal and a very true and unfortunate side effect of the advanced/future romhacking, on which the old original gives up, since it is limited.

Also, do note, that Exlorom is VALID AND KNOWN MAPPING SYSTEM (which however DID NOT EXIST ON REAL HARDWARE). This mapping system was already taken into the regard by Snes9x developers (and yes up to 8MB on verison 1.48).

Any future versions of Repron, sd2snes, flashcart, emulator etc could easily add this mapping system.

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Besides, you clearly like puzzles, so here one is, get it under 6mb.
Doesn't really matter if it is 6MB. It would behave the same as now.


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SNES emulators simulate SNES hardware.
How very true. But note: WHAT IS THE GLOBAL GOAL? The answer is logical - to play a SNES game on a device, which is not SNES hardware - since those are extinct.

So if someone wants to play a SNES game on a PC, he needs a program. The emulators were the easy way out!: a pragmatic solution to the problem - it is easier to scan a cart into the file and emulate it, rather then to adopt the game into a Windows based game, to run it with a new OS depended .exe application.

I wish it would be the latter by the way. The irony is that such applications exist! and game looks like a poor copy of the original (authors of the app did a poor job obviously) - which makes emulation even more popular, since it actually has more qulity. That's we have emulators.
------------------------------



THE MORE IMPORTAINT PART

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An accurate emu, on the other hand, will simply always work. It does what the hardware does, so it can't ever be wrong.
True, but it can never be better either. What if I want to make a game that uses better and more gfx, than the original hardware would allow. Original Alttp has the gfx space limited, why not expand it and make a better game with more wall blocksets (currently only 4 allowed). What if we want each dungeon to have its own unique walls? We can't - not "allowed" by real system. GFX space limited and compressed.

What if we want the enhanced MSU-1 sound? (very popular today). We can't - not "allowed" by real system.

What if we want 500 dungeon rooms, instead of 295 as the original. We can't - not "allowed" by real system.

That's why so many advanced SMW hacks don't run on real systems.

We can change that with the emulators. And that's what I did.

The warp maze in this game uses so many room header properties to make all of those room transitions, that the real hardware would not allow, because it's outdated. Each room now uses maximum room header (original game can only dream of this).

The original rom is squezeed into 1MB! which is absurd. The original game should at least have 3MB. Imagine what we could do with 8 (and obviously on this size we will still have free space).

Note: we must distinguish between a bugged rom hack, which runs only on Zsnes, since it is bugged and poorly made; and an advanced and unique romhack, which uses modern futuristic methods, which can not be handled by old real hardware.
------------------------------


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Besides, it's not like what PD has done here isn't strange given that there isn't 8MB of content. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the ROM is mostly empty space (I only looked through about half in a hex editor so I am assumming when I say "mostly").
Exactly, since obviously this is a shorter hack and does not implement all the new ideas with advanced hacking (for instance I expanded the gfx space, but didn't fill it all). With this size, you will surely not use all the space, so that the game "can breath", rather than to squeeze it all in, like the original. That's the main problem of Alttp, which disallows and limits romhacking. The first thing you want to do with original when modding is expansion of the rom.

Also do note, that it is the mapping that it's importaint. A standard Exlorom made from Alttp (original game) would have the same amount of data as original - ie 1MB actual data - but mapped into 5MB Exlorom. The rest is 00 bytes, untill you start hacking and thus filling this empty space, or simply reorganize the data to be much less "squeezed".

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Since all of this thread has been arguing/debating about formats and definitions: Just play the hack, people. It's great.
Yea. And you got the Green Pendant! - good job (that's difficult to get!).

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By the way, nice self-promotion there Puzz
I was testing the ASM with Hex here and could make it so that custom tiles get loaded into menu, and didn't know what to write. In the bata it was: MAIN ITEMS.



October 06, 2015, 07:26:25 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
PS
This game uses some prodigy-ASM by Conn. The original game can only dream of this: brand new item was made! (I will not spoil it for you which one it is!) Multipushable block was implemented, water block, "brown" block, stone block. Can not push block if standing in shallow water ASM etc etc. It is highly questionable that the old system (ie not Exlorom) would allow such an update.

Original gfx was compressed. I used the non compressed method with a least 4 times the amount of that the original uses (I didn't know if you noticed the new Armos gfx SGP), but obviously I didn't fill all the space.

Maximal room header-properties used (original game can only dream of this). Same for all indoor data actually - all repointed to expanded space to use maximum data possible -
IE I can add so many sprites that any emu would go to infinite lag! Can you imagine this: No More Sprite Limitation! (original game can only dream of this).

The potential of this format is endless.

So as you can see, the game is better in any way. This is how the original should be done and any Alttp hack actually, the original however was "viciously" squeezed into 1MB (for financial purposes), since distribuing such carts was easier.

This advanced romhacking, however, has side effects regarding compatibility.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 07:26:25 am by puzzledude »

Disch

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2015, 10:34:44 am »
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Other than to select which button does what there is nothing else to do. It is a matter of seconds.

Video/audio config.  I lose all my savestates.  If I have a frontend utility, I have to reconfigure that too.  There might be netplay concerns.  I can't use a debugger anymore.  Etc.

Certainly it can be done, but it's an inconvenience.

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since Star Ocean is Not Exlorom.

Whoops.  That wiki suggested it was, so I was operating on that assumption.

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Exlorom never existed on real hardware, since this format [...] was invented right after the millenia, around 2001, SPECIFICALLY FOR ROMHACKS.

So there you have it.  It's not about emulators being representative of the hardware, it's about emulators being like GameMaker.

If that's how you want to use it, that's fine.  But you're limiting your audience.

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The Exlorom format IS THE FUTURE

I disagree.  I've been a part of the NES emulation scene for years, and the clear progression of attitude is that accuracy of obeying hardware restrictions is more important than anything else -- because when you bend accuracy, games start breaking.

I can't help but think SNES emulation will progress the same way.  And in a way it already has -- which is why your ROM hack only works on a grand total of 2 emulators.

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And what is an official emulator?

An official release of software is a release made or endorsed by the primary developers as the next version.  A branch, or fork of the software would not be an official release.

For example, if I were to take your ROM hack, replace Link with a giant penis, and rerelease it, that would not be an official release of your hack.

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What if I want to make a game that uses better and more gfx, than the original hardware would allow.

Then the SNES is the wrong platform.  You want something like RPGMaker.  Which, btw, has much fewer restrictions than any SNES emulator does.

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How difficult it is to make an emu, which runs like original hardware and also throw in something like save stating! (not supported by real hardware!)

The difference is that things like savestates are invisible to the software.  The game running cannot possibly know they exist, and therefore savestates cannot possibly interfere with emulation.  It will never cause an emulated game to fail.

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WHAT IS THE GLOBAL GOAL? The answer is logical - to play a SNES game on a device, which is not SNES hardware - since those are extinct.

But what is a SNES game?  A game which existed on the SNES.

Since you admitted Exlorom did not exist on the SNES, how can you say it's a SNES game?  It's just a game that runs in emulators.

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If it runs on real hardware, it's old and outdated. If it doesn't, it is advanced, unique and futuristic.

This is a retarded statement.

But whatever, clearly as a ROM hacker you have different goals than emu developers do.

Unfortunately for you, ROM hackers don't often write emulators... emu developers usually do.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 10:42:01 am by Disch »

puzzledude

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2015, 11:03:52 am »
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Since you admitted Exlorom did not exist on the SNES, how can you say it's a SNES game? It's just a game that runs in emulators.
But don't you see Exlorom is made from Lorom. This is a Lorom (ie a SNES game) expanded and new data added. The original global engine of the game is not changed at all, it was just updated and expanded, repointer and remapped/reformatted. The data is still there. The data placement is better and fully used (the original was squeezed and poorly used= only what the actual game design needed).


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For example, if I were to take your ROM hack, replace Link with a giant penis, and rerelease it, that would not be an official release of your hack.
It's one thing to deliberately mock the original, or if you actually fix its obvious mistakes, with minor changes.



from the memmap.cpp

Code: [Select]
void CMemory::Map_JumboLoROMMap (void)
{
// XXX: Which game uses this?
printf("Map_JumboLoROMMap\n");
map_System();

map_lorom_offset(0x00, 0x3f, 0x8000, 0xffff, CalculatedSize - 0x400000, 0x400000);
map_lorom_offset(0x40, 0x7f, 0x0000, 0xffff, CalculatedSize - 0x400000, 0x600000); //FuSoYa: Now restores 64Mbit support
map_lorom_offset(0x80, 0xbf, 0x8000, 0xffff, 0x400000, 0);
map_lorom_offset(0xc0, 0xff, 0x0000, 0xffff, 0x400000, 0x200000);

map_LoROMSRAM();
map_WRAM();

map_WriteProtectROM();
}
The original authors regarded the Exlorom as JumboLorom
As you can see only one line was edited! which was forgotten in 1.5 series, but is there in 1.47, that adds 8MB or 64Mbit support, and fixes this "typo".

So this is the simple Exlorom:
Code: [Select]
000000-008000= mirror of 400000-408000
008000-3FFFFF= empty by default (here is where you repoint new data to)
400000-7FFFFF= former Lorom data, max is 4MB (above 7E0000 reserved for RAM)

Do you now see it from the map, how a SNES game in an Exlorom is simply 4MB "shifted" to area 400000-7FFFFF. In the case of Alttp, which is only 1MB, and if restructure in Lorom 2MB, this makes it a 6MB.

Further repointing of data into 7-8MB and 0-4MB, makes it a 8MB Exlorom, with primary area: 400000-5FFFFF, area of repointing "forward"= 600000-7FFFFF and area of repointing "backwards"= 000000-400000.

In in other words, this is SNES game, which has been "very" expanded.

DoomSwell

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2015, 11:11:24 am »
I really liked GoW and PDQ so I tried to give this an honest attempt. I played for about an hour and a half and didn't feel like I got anywhere. The first mini-dungeon was variations of the same rooms over and over, the worst kind of maze. The next one (Misery Mire theme) was a little better but kinda the same. The 3rd one (Water Temple) was where I almost started to like it, block puzzles are a little old but they were being handed well.
Not sure how to feel about not being able to move while charging a spin-attack... The spin attack does need a nerf but that's not quite the right way to do it.

I understand LttP is hard to hack (Hyrule Magic is a buggy mess for example) so I can respect all the effort put into this. I just think it missed the mark.

I think "IQ test" is a bit of a misnomer as well, but of course it is.

Disch

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2015, 11:14:48 am »
But don't you see Exlorom is made from Lorom.

That doesn't matter.  The hardware worked a certain way.  You are making a ROM that expects it to work a way other than it actually does.

This is like creating a new fake mapper on the NES.  Like creating a super mapper that adds the ability for tons of new graphics, a bunch of expansion sound, endless RAM, etc.  Yeah, you could do it... and it would be a "boon" to ROM hackers because they'd be able to make better "hacks"... but nobody is going to do it, because that's not what emulation is about.

In fact... there were mappers that were kind of like that in the past.  Mapper 6, 8, and like half a dozen others I can't recall off the top of my head.  So called "FFE" mappers.  These mappers didn't exist on actual cartridges, and only existed in ROMs that were hacked to use them.

No emulators support them anymore.

If you look at the iNES header, there's a flag to indicate whether or not there's a 512 byte trainer.  This trainer was designed to allow ROM hackers to have extra space for bootup code without having to free up space in the ROM.

No emulators support that anymore.


As emulation progresses, it's clear that accuracy takes priority over everything else.  SNES isn't going to be any different.  History is not on your side.



Emu developers are not going to try to keep pace with whatever bullshit features ROM hackers want to fabricate to make their hacks easier to produce.  They are only interested in emulating the system.

If you want to make games that aren't restrained by the limitations of ancient hardware -- don't make games for ancient hardware.  Use RPG Maker.  Use Game Maker.  Use Unity.  Use Zelda Classic.


In fact, this hack probably would have been a lot better if you made it in Zelda Classic.  SNES is really the wrong medium for this.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 12:05:55 pm by Disch »

puzzledude

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2015, 12:30:22 pm »
Quote
I really liked GoW and PDQ so I tried to give this an honest attempt. I played for about an hour and a half and didn't feel like I got anywhere. The first mini-dungeon was variations of the same rooms over and over, the worst kind of maze. The next one (Misery Mire theme) was a little better but kinda the same. The 3rd one (Water Temple) was where I almost started to like it, block puzzles are a little old but they were being handed well.
Not sure how to feel about not being able to move while charging a spin-attack... The spin attack does need a nerf but that's not quite the right way to do it.

I understand LttP is hard to hack (Hyrule Magic is a buggy mess for example) so I can respect all the effort put into this. I just think it missed the mark.

I think "IQ test" is a bit of a misnomer as well, but of course it is.
Yes, well it is a nonconventional hack, much different from the standard game, and something complex is not neccesarily attractive.


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Emu developers are not going to try to keep pace with whatever bullshit features ROM hackers want to fabricate to make their hacks easier to produce. They are only interested in emulating the system.
Exactly. Let's read this again: "They are only interested in emulating the system." This means they don't care about romhacking or hacks at all, nor advancing forward or updating. They just want to emulate the original - and for the purpose to be able to run original games. But do read the title of this website!

Also, how is save stating, cheating, bg layer disabling, fast forwarding, rewinding! mimicing the real hardware. Those features are gravly interrupting the standard concept of game play, meant for a game. Cheating allows to interrupt and change the RAM, which can make a game crash. All emus should not allow this then, but they do, because that's the beauty of emulation - it is much more advanced than real hardware and supports things, that the real hardware doesn't.


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If you want to make games that aren't restrained by the limitations of ancient hardware -- don't make games for ancient hardware. Use RPG Maker. Use Game Maker. Use Unity. Use Zelda Classic.

In fact, this hack would have been a lot better if you made it in Zelda Classic. SNES is really the wrong medium for this.
Read the title of this website again. We, the hackers, are hacking the rom, since this is the most pragmatic thing to do. Everything is already there and it is the Snes engine, that everyone is so nostalgic about. This is what attracts us and the players and this is what we are good at. You always hook the ASM from the original rom, what else, and put in the new code. That's what this art is all about. Adopting, updating, changing the original.

Someone who makes games is a game designer, not a hacker/modder.

All other systems you metioned are a totaly different thing, since romhacking focuses strictly on the behaviour of the original game, learns from it and adopts/updates it. The result is always a modification of the original game. So is this game, it is a modification, based on the original.


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don't make games for ancient hardware
But we don't, we modify games, which were once for ancient hardware. Now they are new/updated games for updated ancient hardware.

Don't you grasp the idea of romhacking. No sane person would be dumb enough to make an entire game from scratch (we are not a company with 300 workers).
All of our work is strictly based on the original game. In fact you always "hook" from the original code, and then insert new code in blank space. You always repoint, adopt, change, update what already exist, you never make it from scratch.

The result is a modification, an update of the original game. Such an update migh/or migh not require an update on hardware as well, but like said: a hacker is in charge of software.

Some advanced hackers might also be able to actually build editors for games and even recode emulators for their benefit, to bring this "update" into the thing, which will eventually run the game.

Disch

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #28 on: October 06, 2015, 01:05:53 pm »
Exactly. Let's read this again: "They are only interested in emulating the system." This means they don't care about romhacking or hacks at all, nor advancing forward or updating. They just want to emulate the original - and for the purpose to be able to run original games. But do read the title of this website!

That's great and all.  But ROM hackers don't make emulators.  You keep saying Exlorom is the future of emulation -- and maybe even that's what the ROM hacking community thinks and wants.

But the reality is that the emulation community doesn't agree.  Accuracy is the future of emulation.  What ROM hackers want in an emulator is different from what emu devs want.  And what emu devs want is what goes, because they're the ones actually making the emulators.

These nonconformist hacks are going to fall to the wayside in future generations of emulators -- as future generations will get more strict and more accurate.  These hacks are dated because they do not adhere to hardware restrictions.  Hacks which do adhere will be timeless and will work on all future emulators.

Again... we saw this happen 10 years ago with NESticle.  You are doing the exact same thing.  You are making a game for SNES9x -- and not a game for the SNES.  Just as those old hacks were making games for NESticle and not for the NES.

When SNES9x is no longer the emu of choice, nobody will want to use it to play your hack.


Quote
Also, how is save stating, cheating, bg layer disabling, fast forwarding, rewinding! mimicing the real hardware.

As explained previously, those changes are invisible to the underlying software, and therefore do not compromise emulation accuracy.

I'm not saying emu devs don't like adding bells and whistles to make their emus more usable.  But they typically don't like adding them at the expense of accuracy.  Accuracy is top priority.

Quote
Someone who makes games is a game designer, not a hacker/modder.

Semantics.

Quote
Don't you grasp the idea of romhacking. No sane person would be dumb enough to make an entire game from scratch (we are not a company with 300 workers).

You wouldn't have to.  Zelda Classic already exists.  Game Maker already exists.

Also there's an entire world of indy developers.  And I don't think they would agree that they're dumb for making entire games.

Look at Pixel.  He was just one guy that made Cave Story from scratch.  The game was well received and he made a bunch of money off it.  I wouldn't call that dumb.

abyssonym

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2015, 01:21:39 pm »
I only play hacks that work on a flashcart, because I enjoy the nostalgic feeling of using a real SNES. That's why I've taken up hacking retro games; it's really cool to see my work show up when I turn on the SNES. If you can be nostalgic about software then I can be nostalgic about hardware. If you can get your hack to work on the hardware then I'll play it. Not saying that you have to, just that there's an audience for that sort of thing.

As a side note, I don't think there is a "future" for SNES emulation. We're in the final phase, and the vast majority of recent work is being done to make the emulators more accurate. Older, inaccurate emulators like ZSNES are being criticized by various communities such as speedrunners and even some romhacking communities. As far as developers are concerned, there are no more features to add... the only thing left is to make the emulators more accurate, because the only people who care anymore are people who are obsessed with the original hardware.

goldenband

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2015, 01:50:29 pm »
And how do you play a hack on real hardware. You need to make a cart then, which is by defalut an illegal act of cart making.

http://shop.krikzz.com/Super-EverDrive-v2-SPEDV2.htm
http://shop.krikzz.com/SD2SNES-Rev-F-SD2SNS.htm
http://www.retrousb.com/product_info.php?products_id=84

If it runs on real hardware, it's illegal. Because then you can make a cart and sell it (and it works). If it doesn't run on real hardware, it's legal.

There is absolutely no basis in copyright law for this statement. Whether or not it runs on real hardware, it's a derivative work under the law.

It's like claiming that if you copy the Kindle edition of a book, torrent it, but change it so that it'll only run on your personal Kindle emulator, you somehow haven't committed copyright infringement. Or -- even better -- that it's OK to rip, re-edit, and distribute DVDs as long as you transcode them to some format that can't be played on a DVD Player.

It's the content, not the reproducibility within a particular medium, that matters. And all ROM hacks are derivative works, full stop. Whether they have fair use protection when distributed as IPS patches is another question...

BTW I'm on Mac, so I'm not touching this hack either way. Might've tried it if it were playable on real hardware via a flashcart, but the hacker's behavior in this thread has certainly made it clear that my time is better spent elsewhere.

Bahamut ZERO

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2015, 02:39:19 pm »
I don't see a problem with a romhack not running on real hardware when it's expanded like this one. I imagine this was partly done so Puzzledude wouldn't see repro makers disemboweling carts to sell for 30-50 bucks a pop. Am I bummed that I can't play this off PSP? A little. Does that mean I'll refuse to use one of the two emulators included? Hell no - I wanna play me some Zelda. :)


Which I'll be doing just that here soon as I have some free time.  :thumbsup: I enjoyed your other works, so I'm sure  I'll get some enjoyment out of this as well.
Like Super Mario Land? Then you'll love my first completed Rom Hack: Maniac on the Run!

puzzledude

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2015, 04:02:15 pm »
Just a lovable fact. When the Alttp was first released in the 90s and we bought the cart, we could only play it on the SNES console.

According to some people here, the upper statement should be a crime... Let's read this again: "We could only play it on the SNES console". O, how very selfish of Ninteno, only 1 console (which would be an emulator today) to play on. Why couldn't we just play it on Mac, or gameboy, or Sega. I actually know people who would try to stick the SNES cartridge into Sega and Play station.

In addition there was a lovable text on the SNES cart: "only for" SNES to prevent such strange wishes.

So as you can see, the idea of something working somewhere is not really that selfish. It is a miracle that today we can play SNES on their rival consoles.

Any author of the hack should in some regard also know, where his game will be played on. I'll say it again: I'm not a company with 300 workers to test the game on Winsows, Mac, Linux, smartphones, anodroid, Wii, DS, PSP, real hardware, SNES doctor, sd2snes, powerpack, flash cart etc etc and only because someone wants to play it there.

I can only verify that the game works on any system, capable of running SNES roms, which also supports Exlorom mapping, and this mapping is quite known. This is not fabricated. I did not invent this format. The game is still the same, only the data has been moved around since the original is absurdly "squeezed" (why is this such a crime).

Here the proof of this well known mapping:


Any emulator, which was done after 2001, should support this well know mapping system (but it unfortunately doesn't), despite the fact that the original hardware did not (pretty much like the emulator supports save stating and cheating and the original hardware doesn't).


PS
As far as I know the Snes9x (with 6MB Exlorom support) was ported to Windows, MAC, Nintendo DS and Wii. Just saying.
-----------


HOWEVER: quoted from the Romhacking rules section:
Quote
The following types of hacks are not accepted:
-Demos/Alphas/Betas: Any incomplete version of a hack, usually given out well before the final version is ready, for feedback or other purposes is not accepted. You may post such hacks on the forum.
-Texture Packs: Commonly made for Nintendo 64 games, and consisting of new textures which will be loaded in place of the originals. Actual texture hacks are acceptable (as long as they are complete ), however these packs are not.
-Sprite-Only Hacks: Typically single or few sprite only hacks are considered incomplete and/or non-improvements, and will not be accepted (Think Naked Mario hacks). Extensively difficult or artistic sprite hacks however may be considered.
-Emulator Specific Hacks: Any hacks that are known to only run properly on a single emulator such as ZSNES or Nesticle only hacks.

So according to the last line, anyone is welcome to flag this game as Noncompliant, which can/will result with its removal from the database.
--------------------------


However:
rule2 from forum rules:
Quote
RHDN should not be used as your vehicle to piracy - we're not a piracy ring. Any requests for or offers, either directly or indirectly, or hotlinking to illegal material, such as ROMs, ISOs, DVDRips, animations doesn't belong here. This includes discussion that would encourage or enable piracy of "0-day" or recently released games (discussing emulation problems, copy-protection cracks, etc). Discussion on "reproduction" cartridges is not considered within the scope of this forum and is not permitted.
This is a paradox then. Since if it is required for the game to work on real hardware (or Not on certain emus only), then it is automaticlly possible to make a repro out of it and sell it, which means that the RHDN would be used as a vehicle to piracy and even money making.
--------------------

By the way: my hack Goddess of Wisdom was downloaded from this site. IPS patched, Rom carted and it is still being sold today on ebay. Wasn't Romhacking.net thus used as a vehicle to piracy, since I was so generous and made the game compatible with real hardware (which I can do for any SNES hack obviously!).

Disch, I hope you are happy, you can play my lovable Goddess of Wisdom hack on a pirated cart on real hardware, and Higan as well, since it is compatible with real hardware, and you got your 100% emulation accuracy.

Goldenband, I hope you are happy, you can play my lovable Goddess of Wisdom hack on your Mac, using a SNES emu for Mac.

Now you are both happy and satisfied, everyone is happy, since the hack Goddess of Wisdom will run on any possible SNES emu that exists... but piracy has been done. I'm not happy.


So now we, the romhackers, are in the eyes of public bad people - we made this piracy possible, since we were dumb enough to make it compatible with "everything". So things are not ok.

Now that a certain hack is not compatible with everything, things are still not ok. Hm.
------------------------




Quote
Does that mean I'll refuse to use one of the two emulators included? Hell no - I wanna play me some Zelda.
Made my day.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 04:09:32 pm by puzzledude »

Disch

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #33 on: October 06, 2015, 04:09:52 pm »
It's clear we are talking past each other.

It's also clear you do not understand how emu development typically works.  When you've written an emu that obtains 95+% compatibility, then you can lecture me on why accuracy isn't important.  But until then, you just clearly don't understand.

If you are happy with your hack, fine.  That's great.  All I'm saying is that your choices are alienating people and making your hack harder to play.  If you're okay with that tradeoff, then there's really nothing more we need to talk about.

Chpexo

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2015, 04:16:43 pm »
However:
rule2 from forum rules:This is a paradox then. Since if it is required for the game to work on real hardware (or Not on certain emus only), then it is automaticlly possible to make a repro out of it and sell it, which means that the RHDN would be used as a vehicle to piracy and even money making.
This is only a forum rule and doesn't apply to submissions. If you disagree with me, ask a submission reviewer or a moderator.

EDIT: Besides the fact that the game only runs on a modded emulator, the game seems to run fine and looks well done. I personally enjoy the block puzzles.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 04:23:36 pm by Chpexo »

abyssonym

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2015, 04:38:04 pm »
So now we, the romhackers, are in the eyes of public bad people - we made this piracy possible, since we were dumb enough to make it compatible with "everything". So things are not ok.
So you know, Nintendo doesn't care whether or not your hack works on original hardware. Nintendo is opposed to ALL romhacks of their intellectual property, even when they're emulated and not used for commercial gain. You can see this because Nintendo has been targeting YouTube videos of Super Mario World romhacks. SMW romhacks compete with Nintendo's Mario Maker product, so they've developed a policy opposed to romhacks of their IPs.

Every rom hack is an unsanctioned derivative work of someone's intellectual property. Rom hacks use copyrighted characters, copyrighted assets, copyrighted code... all the reasons why you want to hack a rom, and not use game maker software, are the same reasons why rom hacks infringe on copyright. As such, every rom hack, even when distributed in patch form, falls under the umbrella of the ill-defined term "piracy". Now, in the United States, copyright infringement is a civil issue, not a criminal issue... so there's a good chance no one would ever call you out for making a rom hack. But they'd be entirely within their legal rights to do so, as we've seen many times in the past with other rom hacks. And if you did end up going to court over a rom hack, there's no guarantee that Fair Use would protect you.

You don't have the high ground because your hack doesn't work on hardware. Nintendo doesn't care about hardware. They don't make any money off of used SNES carts being sold. Nintendo cares about emulation, because they make money off of their own SNES emulators. If you made a hack that works on emulators but not hardware, you'd be doing more damage than if you just made a hack that works on hardware but not emulators.

Chpexo

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #36 on: October 06, 2015, 04:45:36 pm »
So you know, Nintendo doesn't care whether or not your hack works on original hardware. Nintendo is opposed to ALL romhacks of their intellectual property, even when they're emulated and not used for commercial gain. You can see this because Nintendo has been targeting YouTube videos of Super Mario World romhacks. SMW romhacks compete with Nintendo's Mario Maker product, so they've developed a policy opposed to romhacks of their IPs.
This is not just limited to romhacks. Nintendo has pulled the plug on fan made projects like Super Mario 64 HD. If you use any of Nintendo IP without their permission, it's illegal.

Quick Curly

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #37 on: October 06, 2015, 05:04:00 pm »
I don't generally play SNES hacks, let alone Zelda SNES hacks, and I'm definitely no emulator developer, but I can get an idea of where Disch and puzzledude are both coming from.

I recall puzzledude establishing their frustration in the past about how people who didn't have anything to do with their projects have made money off of them after puzzledude is the one who spent all of the time and effort doing the work, which can definitely be discouraging and infuriating.

However, this is the risk that we as ROM hackers take when we pursue such a hobby, instead of trying to make a quick buck under the noses of the government and gaming companies as cartridge reproducers.

After all the work that gets put into a project in general (whether a ROM hack, editing utility, emulator, or whatever, but in this case specifically, a ROM hack), what does it matter what the restrictions are? If a person like me who doesn't generally play SNES hacks isn't going to play it anyway, why should puzzledude cater to my specific desires/needs? It's their project. As far as I'm concerned, they can make it however they choose to, and that's perfectly fine with me.
As long as a project details the specific ROM to use, and compatible emulators if applicable, then if a person really wants to play it, it should be easy enough to follow if it's what a player really wants to do. If the person isn't going to play the hack anyway, then it shouldn't matter.
For example, when ahakomi uploaded their SMB3 hack to share publicly, it was on a file sharing site that you couldn't download from without registering an account first. So, I did that. I could have asked, "Why not upload it to Dropbox or another file sharing site that I won't have to take 5 minutes to make an account on just to download one file?", but I wasn't going to ask for them to do even more work just to make it easier for me.

Now, as for the hack not lasting through the test of time, as long as the appropriate files are readily available, if a person really wants to play it should they be able to find it, they will.

Being "accurate" as it relates to emulation and the real SNES, in my opinion from what I can understand, puzzledude has established that it's not their intention, which yes, I get is understood.
So, it is what it is.
When it comes to ROM hacking, it's pretty much the decision of whoever is doing the project for what it becomes.
We as the potential players just sit back and do nothing but get presented with the final product.
It's likely just because of who I am, and that's just for trying to find the good in people and things, so I don't judge the project for what it could be, which according to Disch, would be more accurate in terms of true SNES standards.

As for the concept of the hack itself with being more technical than action based, yeah, it's not for everyone, but I really don't care to see reviews for hacks that say a hack isn't their style and not to play it, when everyone is different. Same as the "Bad Hacks" genre. They're viewed as immature and overly simple to just throw a bunch of obscene imagery in without really ever changing the levels or anything else in the game to provide a motivating, worthwhile new experience from the original game, but whatever floats their boats. For myself, I feel that both action and technical styles can be fun, alone or together.

Sure, this probably wasn't even my place or a topic to just come in and spout a bunch of random ramblings.
But, I've kept up with puzzledude's posts and projects in the past, and recall how they truly don't care for the illegal cartridge reproductions of their work combined with the unchanged elements of the original game(s), and making money from selling those physical reproductions. So, I just wanted to express some positive reinforcement for the project as a whole.

Again, though, I can understand Disch's concern that if a hack does some crazy stuff that isn't "parallel" (in a sense) with developing emulation standards, it might not carry through to the future, but be stuck in a branching path of the tree of hacking ventures overall that we could very well possibly never see again.

But, if the way that puzzledude has made this hack is so that it isn't compatible with real hardware, knowing their past experiences of having to see their time and effort helping to illegally put money in someone else's pockets, I have no problem whatsoever with their choice. One day, I might feel like giving it a try as well only to quickly discover just how "Zelda stupid" my IQ level really is. :laugh:

SunGodPortal

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #38 on: October 06, 2015, 05:11:57 pm »
Quote
(I didn't know if you noticed the new Armos gfx SGP)

Yeah that was cool. That and the way the room was set up really gave it a fresh feeling. It's inspiring because it's difficult to make "the same old boss battles" feel fresh and that's what you've done here. You made that boss battle play totally different without making any changes to the boss behaviour (from what I could tell). That's one of my favorite things about ROM hacks. Adding stuff if great, but finding different and creative ways to alter what already exists is usually what I find the coolest. Without cheating, I had to devise a very specific strategy to make it through. I had to use my brain rather than simply exploiting game items or mechanics to make the boss quick and easy. The GFX was the icing on the cake though.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Again, play the hack, people. There's been so much said in this thread but maybe only two comments about the gameplay. *YAWN*
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Azkadellia

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Re: ROM Hacks: Time to test your IQ
« Reply #39 on: October 06, 2015, 06:44:15 pm »
[18:33:04] <MKendora> Disch is mostly wrong.
[18:33:52] <MKendora> the actual limit hardware can do with a LoROM-esque cart would be 8MB - 64K
[18:34:18] <MKendora> and the only difference is whether a single fucking address line is hooked up.
[18:34:34] <MKendora> the SNES can recognize way more than 8 MB directly.
[18:35:03] <MKendora> It might never have made it through Nintendo's bullshit, but...
[18:35:51] <MKendora> the simple fact is that you could do it all with a couple of TI chips. Not even a real address decoder.
[18:38:41] <MKendora> all but a handful of SNES carts ignore the top bit of the address. (The unit itself does care).
[18:39:29] <MKendora> all the stuff Disch is whining about "doesn't work on hardware" is simply allowing the virtual cart to hook up the virtual A23 bit.
[18:39:47] <MKendora> just like the real Tales of Phantasia cart uses the real A23 bit.
[18:40:23] <MKendora> there's not a damn thing special about "HiROM" or "LoROM".
[18:40:42] <MKendora> If you want to, you can create a cart that uses a mix of the two.
[18:40:55] <MKendora> it will run on a real SNES.
[18:41:56] <MKendora> basically, there's a CART (or is it /CART?) line.
[18:42:16] <MKendora> anyway, that's what the cart NEEDS to pay attention to.
[18:43:02] <MKendora> if you want it to, it doesn't even need to pay attention to the address lines.
[18:43:24] <MKendora> (Be a fucked up way to program, but it would technically work)
[18:45:09] <MKendora> but... anyway, banks 7e and 7F are always off-limits to the cart. It'd take someone with more EE experience than me to explain what happens if you respond to those requests.
[18:45:54] <MKendora> other than that, all addresses where the 40:0000 bit or the 00:8000 bit are set are always fair game.
[18:47:05] <MKendora> if your cart chooses to respond to all of them, that's your call.
[18:47:23] <Lakmir|Work> FWIW, SRW Gaiden uses both hirom and lorom addressing.
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