News: 11 March 2016 - Forum Rules
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Poll

Which control scheme would you prefer for the weak/strong attacks

B for Weak, forward + B for strong
0 (0%)
B for Weak, A for strong (running only available in towns)
0 (0%)
Forward B for weak, B for strong
0 (0%)
B for weak, Y for strong (X used for own menu and X again to change to other characters menu)
0 (0%)
other (please post your suggestion)
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 0

Author Topic: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack  (Read 191403 times)

Kosayn

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #320 on: August 04, 2016, 02:08:30 pm »
This seems really neat.  I only had to get a few lines in to remember the nightmarish experience of menu management in a multiplayer game of Secret of Mana, and getting the AI characters stuck before Elinee.  Kudos! Back to reading about it.

reconstructingmana

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #321 on: August 04, 2016, 09:41:54 pm »
I've been following your work for awhile, zhade, great job.  There have been references in this thread to retranslation projects.  I too, am working on one, although I don't know any Japanese.  It's by accident---I've been gathering everything I can on the development of SoM for my blog.  There seemed to be a lot of information scattered, and I wanted to compile it all in one place.  Since I don't know the language, I'm probably missing some details, but I have managed to uncover quite a few things that did not make it into the English script.  At this point, I have translated virtually all the major dialogue, and might get to the rest if a need arises.  I have no programming expertise, but if you need me for anything else, let me know.

SpRoUt

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #322 on: August 06, 2016, 11:58:30 am »
I'm always good at spotting bugs. You guys are doing great keep up the good work. If you need help spotting them let me know.

Thirteen 1355

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #323 on: August 24, 2016, 05:49:16 am »
If that is the variable width font hack then no because that hack requires a header while this one does not... unfortunately.

Can't you add the header after patching this hack, then patch the VWF (or opposite)?
Helicoptering about till I find some ROM hacking treasure.

zhade

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #324 on: August 25, 2016, 02:43:25 am »
Can't you add the header after patching this hack, then patch the VWF (or opposite)?
If it was only for the head/no-header thing, yes it would work, but the VWF patch changes all story events in which there is text to change the line breaks since the text takes less space and the gameplay improvement patch uses 1 event for the difficulty selection. I guess it could still work but the difficulty would be set to the default, can't remember which one that is.

Thirteen 1355

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #325 on: August 25, 2016, 06:43:10 am »
Ah, yes...
Helicoptering about till I find some ROM hacking treasure.

FungusFoot

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #326 on: October 13, 2016, 01:16:44 pm »
Just wanted to say that this hack is the best thing I've ever seen and thanks for making it!

DragonArk

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #327 on: November 13, 2016, 05:39:36 pm »
Zhade shared this elsewhere but I thought some of you would want to see this. Mop (creator of secret of mana editor) is currently working on a SoM project, looks amazing! https://www.twitch.tv/moppleton/v/97515314

SageOwl

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #328 on: November 13, 2016, 09:52:44 pm »
Zhade shared this elsewhere but I thought some of you would want to see this. Mop (creator of secret of mana editor) is currently working on a SoM project, looks amazing! https://www.twitch.tv/moppleton/v/97515314
Instant twitch follow. That looks so damn cool. I'd love to stream it.

KishPrime

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #329 on: November 22, 2016, 10:08:52 am »
Still think this hack's potential is exceptional, though can't get the targeting to work right. The combat is glorious. Would love updates or to know how we could help test!

lexluthermiester

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #330 on: November 25, 2016, 04:08:41 am »
Question; What version of ROM is needed? Secret Of Mana (U) [!].sfc is the one I used.

Asking because after the Undine cave the use of magic is problematic. The selection cursor is the same icon as the boy's charge meter face. Doesn't seem to be a way to select all, for enemies or party. Tried repatching with a fresh ROM and still no luck.

Is this a common problem or is a different ROM required?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2016, 10:25:58 am by lexluthermiester »

zhade

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #331 on: November 28, 2016, 02:39:06 pm »
The rom should be headerless and have a CRC32: D0176B24 (the most common US rom to my knowledge)
As for targetting, IIRC in the lattest patch pressing up while targetting selects all enemies, down is for all party members. Many people seems to have had trouble with the targeting system not working properly, it might be because it has been aplied to another version of the rom or maybe the emulator used ? The code for targeting is the first bit I did and I gotta admit it looks horrible.. Hopefully there wont be problems when i'll rewrite the code for it.

About that, even tho this project has been on hold for quite some time now, I still am working on romHacking tools and digging into the disassembly. I finally have a satisfactory assembler, as well as a nice assembly development environment app, well-suited to keep things organized and make it easy to keep features seperate from one another and some very usefull debugging tools. I started rewriting some stuff, not much right now:
- MP visible in the status area
- decreased "stun" time.
- I also modified the threshold that triggers the longer "knocked back" animation. It normally happens when a character/monster is hit 1/4 of its max HP, now raised to 1/2.
- Strong/weak attacks, javelin melee attack (animation plays faster now)

I am looking for a way to make enemies move faster in general which I think would make fighting more interesting.
I found a way to lock a character into an animation frame, meaning Ill be able to make the blocking "holdable"

Even tho I still have lots of code to rewrite.. Im thinking of new game mechanics that could be implemented since I now have good knowledge of animation codes... re-writing stuff that I already did is just so much less fun so I thought getting into some new stuff might be a good way to have me get back to work on this project to then get motivated to do the boring bits so heres what I have been thinking lately:

I thougth it could be interesting to, instead of charges, have special moves that dont need warming up but cost "Technique points, TP" instead. TP could grow back with time and a bonus amount recharged each time you hit an enemy as well as decrease slowly when you hold block. special moves would be triggered by simple button combinations, im thinking it could be d-pad paterns while holding the attack button, like back,forward "release". That would make weapons more usable against bosses altho I guess it could need a cooldown time like magic so you start every boss fight by lining up special moves until you run dry of TP.. The regular charge-attacks could be used as special moves but I think I could manage to make new attack animations as well (or instead). Each character could have its own set of moves and each move learned (learned like charge-attacks normally are) could be used with similar-styled weapons ! So for example, if you learn the sword's level1 move then switch to the axe, you would still be able to use the move you learned, encouraging you to change weapon in order to learn new moves instead of sticking with your favorite.. Anyway, Im still just throwing ideas into this,I dont have a clear idea yet about any of this, and I thought you guys might have good idea to throw in too or spot problems with this system that I missed so.. what do you guys think of this ?

KishPrime:
I had to start again from nothing because of the way I just modified the same rom directly and in the end lost track of some changes I made and because of how my home-made assembler made it hard to keep things organized.. As soon as I have something new to show ill post a patch here for testing/feedback, even tho it will most likely lack some features that are present in the "old" patch that still need to be rewritten. just come check here from time to time, I will probably have something in need of testing soon..ish and very much appreciate getting feedback / bug reports and im always open to new ideas !

thzfunnymzn

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #332 on: November 28, 2016, 06:58:35 pm »
Special moves seems like a solid way to truly differentiate the different weapons & give the player mechanical reasons to gain EXP with one weapon over the other. Also sounds, on paper, more fun than charging.

Atrushan

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #333 on: November 28, 2016, 07:22:28 pm »
Yeah I think special moves would be interesting especially if they also have extra effects (aoe/stuns/guard breaks) and even more so if you make custom attack animations(arrow rain for bow please!) I don't remember if we discussed this but also some weapons could specialize in different things. There are already various statistics added to weapons as you upgrade them, but what if instead of changing the weapons' effects constantly, upgrading caused the base effect to be stronger? Perhaps for example let's assume swords are good against bugs, but early on they're only moderately good against them, and as you upgrade them they become much more powerful against them. This power might have to be gated though. Maybe, using the same example, to get exp for the sword you have to kill bugs with it rather than just anything. Although weapon abilities might be enough for weapons and if used on bosses it'll leave a clear indicator of what weapon you want to use against them. What about stats? Maybe make a way to upgrade your stats as you level up instead of it being automatic? Similar to SD3 possibly? Shame SoM didn't have a class system like SD3. That was by far my favorite thing about the game. You had so much control over each character and it was like a blank canvas every game. It gave so much replay value too.

DragonArk

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #334 on: November 30, 2016, 09:20:43 pm »
Yeah I like that idea, sounds sweet but difficult to add. This idea is a bit different and probably harder to do but it would be great to be able to go into a 'rage' mode where you basically move, attack and use skills faster, think similar to kingdom heart II's 'drive form'. If you couldn't speed the main character up, perhaps you can slow all the enemies down, if that is possible, to give it that slow mo look.

I was talking to mop before, he said he separates his hacks into individual C# source files. They basically dumps code in starting at 0x60000. You prob already talk to him but if you were to do the same I'm sure he could add your hacks into what he's currently doing now. Would love to see that collaboration! :D
« Last Edit: December 01, 2016, 01:05:30 am by DragonArk »

Atrushan

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #335 on: December 01, 2016, 12:10:12 pm »
What if instead of button combinations to do skills or maybe in addition to it you could make combos. For example push b to attack normally then b again to chain into combo 1, or x to do combo 2.


zhade

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #336 on: December 04, 2016, 02:33:37 pm »
Atrushan:
-Really like the 'arrow rain' idea, altho it's really more related to projectiles than attack animations, it got me looking into how projectiles work in the last few days, I still have lots to discover in there, but I think it should be possible to make such an attack, it would be nice compared to just firing 3 arrows in a row, since it would have the potential to hit many enemies at once but only if their are at a certain distance. I Guess I could also make a 3way spread shot as another bow attack.

-As for combination, I thought that since in SoM enemies get knocked and have a small invincibility time each time they get hit, you want the first strike to be as powerful as possible. Combos could still be cool for the gloves tho, for example (theres 2 punch and 1 kick animation IIRC) pushing B alone could make you do a punches and forward-B kick (which also pushed you forward). Each 3 attacks would only be possible once in a combo so you could choose to do : kick-punch1-punch2 or punch1-kick-punch2 or just kick-punch1, each attack doing the normal damage, but then your power% would drop by some amount for each attack in the combo, so a shorter combo will let you hit your 100% power back faster.

-As for 'good against X enemy type', its really hard to tell which type an enemy is sometimes, I suspect this is why they chose to just leave it out, I for one had always thought that the game was not lying to us and that there was a small damage boost against certain enemy types until Regrs pointed out that it just doesnt do anything. For example the haunted spell-casting books, as well as haunted chairs are of type plant/fish :P Also color-swap enemies sometimes dont have have the same type, like the gray wolf "Heck Hound" is type animal/bird, but the pink wolf of gold tower "Beast Zombie" are type undead.. very confusing..

-Stats is also something I would leave as-is because there is no way to change class, raising intelligence (magic power) for the boy would be useless for example. I think stats-altering equipments would be a better way to give the mean to customize you character stats instead.

Dragon Ark:
-I guess there could be a 'special move" costing TP that would make you go into rage-mode, letting you attack without having to recharge your power% and run all the time instead of walking for a short time, or it could a good replacement for the speed-up spell effect

-I really would like to be able to play mop's mod along with my changes, because of the versatillity of my new assembler, I can move my code wherever I want easily so it should be possible, it looks like each of our mods touch different parts of the game so in theory it should be possible, it depends on how much free space there is tho, since all these new big maps take lots of space, but I think mop decided to reduce the total number of floor.


About new attacks in general one of the biggest problem, that I forgot to take into consideration, will be AI.. I don't think its a good idea to let the AI use TP-costing attacks since it would make poor use of its TP.. But that means you would have to switch character during a boss to make use of each character's TP, and since lots of people will play solo that could get hard to manage. That makes me wonder if I should just replace the charging by a cooldown and forget about TP.. That way even tho an AI-controlled character use a special attack in a stupid situation, it would not be so bad, it just wont be able to do another one for a short time. I guess it would make AI a bit better too cuz now, when they have a charge-level set, they just keep charging until they have their charge and release it. At least now they would help out with regular attacks most of time and throw out a special attack at random when they are able.

Atrushan

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #337 on: December 05, 2016, 09:40:38 am »
I had no idea those actually didn't work. Might as well remove that flavor text then if ya don't mind. I always used weapons that said they were good against certain types.

theonyxphoenix

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #338 on: December 05, 2016, 04:56:47 pm »
I am glad to see that this is still being worked on.

I agree that something needs to be done about weapons, as they just can't hold up late-game, especially on higher difficulties as the enemies just deal too much damage when you have to get in close.

While special moves would be an exciting and interesting addition, I definitely think that getting a sustainable block mechanic would be wonderful.  Also, finding ways to make all of the spells useful and/or have meaningful effects.

The unconscious at 1/2 HP is definitely going to be a blessing.  Hopefully the idea of having elementals join at default higher levels is still in development.

I don't know if a block/counter attack system would be able to be implemented? Like...critical hit if you attack right after a block?

Perhaps just give Randi TP and techs to separate him from the other two characters. Give him something that makes him unique over the spell-casters. This could also help alleviate the problems with the AI. I don't know if you would be able to single him out, though.  Also an idea, maybe make his gauge fill faster with increased agility? Speed up is supposed to do that, right?

lexluthermiester

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #339 on: December 06, 2016, 01:03:26 pm »
Zhade,

Had an interesting thought. Have you considered releasing each of the features in this hack as a stand-alone patch? The companion players not getting stuck feature is a very worthy hack all by itself! You could then release a new features one at a time, letting folks test it out and give you feedback. It would also enable folks to pick and choose which ones they like. This would also help you to stay interested in the process and focused on the end goal as each step along the way would be a much shorter. Just an idea..
« Last Edit: December 06, 2016, 10:24:51 pm by lexluthermiester »