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Poll

Which control scheme would you prefer for the weak/strong attacks

B for Weak, forward + B for strong
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B for Weak, A for strong (running only available in towns)
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Forward B for weak, B for strong
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B for weak, Y for strong (X used for own menu and X again to change to other characters menu)
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other (please post your suggestion)
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Total Members Voted: 0

Author Topic: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack  (Read 195715 times)

KillerBob

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #160 on: September 05, 2015, 10:33:55 pm »
It's a separate BG layer from the title/text.
But for some reason there's a blurry area that the Japanese logo covers up nicely.
How weird, wonder what the reason for the blurry area was.

A side-by-side video comparison between versions for the curious: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7QjVcdC8sA The English one didn't just replace the background and replace the logo, it seems to have been reprogrammed from the ground up - different timing and pattern of the flock of birds flying past the screen for example. I recall the looping of the intro being slightly awkward in the English version as well.

Thanatos-Zero

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #161 on: September 06, 2015, 08:28:04 am »
I don't think so, I already don't have as much time as I would want to work on this project.
I can provide them with information about the location of stuff in the ROM or RAM if they need it tho.

I am still looking forward to the day, we will join forces and create a badass Seiken Densetsu 2 which will rock.

PhyChris

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #162 on: September 06, 2015, 01:36:04 pm »
ever think of removing weapon charging entirely and replace charge lvl attacks with button combos like street fighter or mortal kombat 'learn a new combo each weapon upgrade or character lvl'

DragonArk

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #163 on: September 06, 2015, 06:47:25 pm »
Another idea for charging could be using level or agi to speed up the charge rate or if you are really dedicated to this, you could put in a hit meter which charges when you hit or get hit.

Wish Nasir (SoM programmer) would come out of hiding and help, lol

SageOwl

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #164 on: September 07, 2015, 12:52:51 am »
ever think of removing weapon charging entirely and replace charge lvl attacks with button combos like street fighter or mortal kombat 'learn a new combo each weapon upgrade or character lvl'
Sounds impractical.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2015, 11:11:18 am by SageOwl »

DragonArk

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #165 on: September 07, 2015, 07:34:26 pm »
Sorry I posted this in the other SoM thread, just posting it here too because I want to make sure everyone is aware of this information!
-------
Hey guys,
a while ago I was looking into the missing content and found a few videos and pictures that most likely came from the beta or CD version. If you have a look at the Japanese manual, there is a world map picture that was probably made during when the CD version was being made. I have a physical copy of the Japanese manual if you want me to scan it so you can see the extra paths and areas they were going to create.

Here are some references to some extra footage of the game that wasn't included in the final game (some of it just looks like beta versions of used maps):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8ObmJ0x4_A (look at 1:45 for a quick example)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSWYkRJRSs4

Some pictures here too:
http://pantalytron.com/blog7.php/mein-kommentar-zu-definitive-ressource
http://pantalytron.com/blog7.php/definitive-ressource-secret-of-mana-2
http://www.flyingomelette.com/oddities/oddities25.html
http://www.unseen64.net/2008/06/08/secret-of-mana-snes-beta/
https://tcrf.net/Secret_of_Mana


I also made some quick observations for each map using Mop's secret of mana editor (They are very rough). You can see my 2013 post here - http://acmlm.kafuka.org/board/thread.php?id=7789
« Last Edit: September 07, 2015, 08:54:52 pm by DragonArk »

zhade

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #166 on: September 08, 2015, 02:30:09 am »


4 player option ! that would have been crazy. I thought they droped the idea when they switched to SNES but seeing as they talk about the mode 7 it must have been removed later (probably to keep the game running at 60fps).

The path to the water palace/neko is way shorter than what is shown on the map, there probably was some areas that were removed there. That would also explain why there is a canon that goes from potos to the water palace, because now its actually faster to walk if you dont attack enemies. Those shown in the video have the same tileset so it might have been it. It seems early in development tho so it might have been test-maps or other removed areas.

Did you guys ever notice the beaches on the map ? It seems like there was a water vehicle of some sort planned because of how they are connected to places where you can actually go. I made a (quite-long) post about my speculations of how it was suposed to work on the acmlm board : post.

-----------------------
EDIT:

New beta version ! heres the list of changes:
- players can be farther appart
- bosses have more HP on hard (twice as much, they)
- characters are invincible while performing a charged attack
- fixed the CPU teleport bugs
- working weapon affinity (+50% damage)
- saber damage is affected (+/- 50%) by enemies elemental type
- faster charging depending on weapon level
- charge-locking* (pressing A while charging)
- strafing (holding R while charging) now works

*I didnt implement resuming after charge locking yet

@ChemaROMhacking
Here are the adresses for the magic rechaging time:
There are 2 byte for each character that makes a 16-bit number. the first value is the high byte so for example if you set E0A18E to x05 and E0A188 to x0C the sprite (on easy) will have to wait x050C frames before he can cast again. The adresses are in snes highrom format, to convert them to "normal" adresses just change the first 'E' for a '2'. You probably wanted to play on easy but ill give you the adresses for hard too just in case.

Easy:
 Sprite: E0A18E, E0A188
 Girl: E0A1D6, E0A1D0

Hard:
 Sprite : E0A17A, E0A174
 Girl: E0A1C2, E0A1BC

@PhyChris
It would make it too easy to use high-level charges and deal alot of damage since you wouldnt have to wait for the charging.

@Killerbob
Hopefuly it wont make things harder to change the background, I have sent ExL's fixed background to -Hiei so he can try inserting it.
My guess for the blurry thing is maybe they had put the title in the background image at first but then didn't like how the title look (or wanted the title to appear on a black background before the tree background is shown) and made a new one but somehow didnt save the background seperatly and they had to fix it quickly so they removed the title, leaving a white empty space and since the new title didnt cover the empty space completely they blended the surrounding area to cover the empty space which resulted in the blurry area. Since the title covers most of it the blurry area the part that are visible dont look bad, but I guess thats why the english version used only the lower part of the image as the english title wouldnt cover it as much and it would have looked bad.
About the bird patterns, I noticed that in the english version they dont go behind the text, maybe they changed something and it caused trouble when the birds are behind the text ? (both version seem to use the same font tho..) Maybe its because of how the background is zoomed, the birds would have looked like they fly too low ?

-----
Edit 2:
Oops, heres the patch : V0.8
« Last Edit: September 08, 2015, 05:06:50 am by zhade »

PhyChris

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #167 on: September 08, 2015, 11:08:07 am »

@PhyChris
It would make it too easy to use high-level charges and deal alot of damage since you wouldnt have to wait for the charging.


This hack is great work. A friend and i tried to play this game coop a year or two ago but there are so many thing that slow the game down and charging is one of them. Later game it seems like all you do is wonder around the screen holding a button, steady dodging enemys. maybe put in an auto charge than when u hit the correct button you use the current auto charge attack lvl

zhade

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #168 on: September 08, 2015, 08:50:02 pm »
@PhysChris
Auto-charge would make things too easy because you wouldnt be slowed-down like when you normally charge. I prefer the idea that someone posted earlier about making the charge bar go up when you hit enemies and then press a button to release it. The problem is that you would not see your power% since its in the same place as the charge-bar and during bosses you would have to hit the boss many times to get your charged attack and some of them can only be hit during a short time. I think something that would be cool is to have some kind of technique points that recharges over time and when you hit enemies and then you would use some points when performing fighting game-style combos so that you cant use a level8 attack at all time if you are good at making the button combination. Altho I think it would be too different from the normal game for this hack and it would be hard to make the AI characters

Later game it seems like all you do is wonder around the screen holding a button, steady dodging enemys.
Yeah the game is not very hard normally so it gets repetitive after some point, at least now you have to dodge manually and on hard enemies being more agressive and hit hard you have to be careful and use a differnt strategy.
-------------------

Update:
I've worked on making the shoping faster. I've removed the confirmation and the "thank you" so now you buy (or sell) an item on a single button press. The only waiting time is for the money transfer sound effect to be played. You can also hold the B button to buy the same item until you are full. Heres a video comparison: Normal , Improved
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 10:06:04 am by zhade »

Vanya

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #169 on: September 09, 2015, 01:14:29 pm »
the improved video is set to private.

ChemaROMhacking

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #170 on: September 09, 2015, 01:50:56 pm »
Two new scrolling issues have popped up
1) When Elliot kicks the boy's ass at Potos
2) When Potos' gatekeeper tells you to GTFO

Rest assured, they are not game breaking and the first one results in a more hilarious (The BOY crying "plz stahp" offscreen) and more coherent (you don't see Elliot unnecessarily walk around BOY) scenario; I presume it has to do with the "players now can be farther"

On hard mode, did you create a table where enemies call up new values (HP, attack, etc) or did you apply a multiplier?

BTW, thanks a lot for the spell casting tweaks
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 01:56:07 pm by ChemaROMhacking »

zhade

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #171 on: September 09, 2015, 04:51:11 pm »
the improved video is set to private.
fixed

@ChemaROMhacking
Ill have a look at the potos events.
Hard mode uses multipliers, but mostly on you actually. Def and magic def is reduced for playable characters and HP is doubled for bosses.
Enemies' power% also recharges faster using a multiplier.

------------
Edit:
lol, just looked at the event when the guy gets beaten by Elliot, the camera moves up as if the beating was censored :P
I found out that in potos village, elliot and the other kid seem to take the RAM space normally only used by the girl and the sprite so my routine thinks the girl and the sprite are there so they keep the boy from moving the camera which causes this bug.

I fixed it by removing the checks when the camera is moved during events but that makes the pureland event glitched again...

In the event in pureland they added 3 sprites that looks like the boy,girl and sprite and made the party invisible and then to make the screen scroll they make the invisible boy walk up. Normally the screen stops even tho the boy still tries to go up, because the other 2 (hidden) characters are too low on the screen so the screen wont scroll. In the intro they did kind of the same thing, the boy is invisible and walks so the screen moves but in pureland instead of using the normal "character moving event" that works like : "Move boy up 8pixels", they trigger an animation. The animation is only the boy walking up for some time, but since the animation event is more like : "Play animation number 123" I can't change the distance the boy is walking to make him stop at the right time -_-. I tried changing the animation for a normal walk event, but the normal walk event has the character stop on walls.. Since I tried this I now found out there is an event flag to make characters walk through walls tho so it probably will work. I guess it worked so they didnt care but they really were lazy on that one..
« Last Edit: September 10, 2015, 03:27:24 am by zhade »

Regrs

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #172 on: September 10, 2015, 03:25:40 pm »
In the event in pureland they added 3 sprites that looks like the boy,girl and sprite and made the party invisible and then to make the screen scroll they make the invisible boy walk up. Normally the screen stops even tho the boy still tries to go up, because the other 2 (hidden) characters are too low on the screen so the screen wont scroll. In the intro they did kind of the same thing, the boy is invisible and walks so the screen moves but in pureland instead of using the normal "character moving event" that works like : "Move boy up 8pixels", they trigger an animation. The animation is only the boy walking up for some time, but since the animation event is more like : "Play animation number 123" I can't change the distance the boy is walking to make him stop at the right time -_-. I tried changing the animation for a normal walk event, but the normal walk event has the character stop on walls.. Since I tried this I now found out there is an event flag to make characters walk through walls tho so it probably will work. I guess it worked so they didnt care but they really were lazy on that one..

The game does this all the time. There are cutscene versions of each character and the real characters are turned invisible and moved around to control the camera.

Also the normal movement command should work fine. No-Clip is already enabled while that cutscene is playing. (Randi actually uses the normal move/directional command to walk back into the cliff face).

Edit:
Just tested it. Change the animation command to a movement command that tells the lead character to move north 32 pixels and the cutscene will play properly again.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2015, 04:10:09 pm by Regrs »

zhade

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #173 on: September 10, 2015, 10:18:00 pm »
Moppy has transfered his somEdit ownership to Enker so we might see some updates soon :) Enker is the guy who made the site with the game dissassemblies that helped do this hack, he seems to know a whole lot about the game inner-workings so he is probably the best person to continue the project !

@Regrs
You are right, it works fine, last time I guess I tried moving up 0xF and the (invisible) boy stoped right at the edge of the cliff so I thought no-clip was disabled  :banghead:.

--------------------------
Edit:
I Just found something interesting while continuing my mapping of the characters data, AI characters seem to have a "reaction time" value, its set to 0x0A or 0x05 (depending on the situation) by default and if I bring it down all the way to 01 the AI characters attack as soon as they are close to their target making them much better. They also get back faster and seem to evaluate their distances better. I think the same can be changed for enemies so I might be able to make enemies react faster too at higher difficulties so they would not only attack more often (what I call agressiveness) but they will also react faster so you will have to be quick when you are close to them because they wont hesitate to attack.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2015, 03:05:51 am by zhade »

DragonArk

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #174 on: September 14, 2015, 01:46:45 am »
That sounds great! It would make gameplay a bit more interesting in hard mode. Hope that gets implemented :)

Whedonesque

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #175 on: September 14, 2015, 07:20:45 am »
Awesome to find this thread. I've tried tinkering around with Moppy's editor but it glitched too much for me, but then I'm not much of a coder.

I'm a good writer, however. I'd be extremely interested in refining the game's dialogue a little, if you sent me a file in a format I could tinker with. Then I would post my alternative script and people could vote whether or not they approved of it. :) I don't think a total rewrite would be popular, but giving everything a little more charm would be worthwhile. Feel free to email me, or I'll check back in this thread. I'm also very happy to help in a play-testing and stat-balancing capacity. I grew up on this game and must have played it through 20 times ;).
 
Apart from that offer, all I'd like to say is I would prefer that the implemented changes may be individually toggled 'on' or 'off'. That way someone who likes some of the changes is able to play with them without being forced to accept the others. :d

SageOwl

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #176 on: September 15, 2015, 10:06:10 pm »
Awesome to find this thread. I've tried tinkering around with Moppy's editor but it glitched too much for me, but then I'm not much of a coder.

I'm a good writer, however. I'd be extremely interested in refining the game's dialogue a little, if you sent me a file in a format I could tinker with. Then I would post my alternative script and people could vote whether or not they approved of it. :) I don't think a total rewrite would be popular, but giving everything a little more charm would be worthwhile. Feel free to email me, or I'll check back in this thread. I'm also very happy to help in a play-testing and stat-balancing capacity. I grew up on this game and must have played it through 20 times ;).
 
Apart from that offer, all I'd like to say is I would prefer that the implemented changes may be individually toggled 'on' or 'off'. That way someone who likes some of the changes is able to play with them without being forced to accept the others. :d
You should look at the retranslation thread and read some of the links he has posted there about the backstory of Secret of Mana as it will give you insight into the project being done. Simply put: Secret of Mana was not initially intended to be what it ended up as. I'm sure if your writing is up to snuff then you could be of use there, especially if you can translate.

Whedonesque

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #177 on: September 16, 2015, 05:44:49 pm »
I am actually a professional translator... Unfortunately I could only translate from European languages [German, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, English], and not Japanese ;). I had a look at the thread earlier and it looks like an admirable project. However, my own ambition lies more in the line of 'improving' the original game while fully allowing for artistic license, without any particular need to take into account the vision the original script-writers have. I think it's fair to say that even in the Japanese version, the story was never an especially strong point of the game, and I would aim to change that. Effectively, I think it would be easier and more successful to edit the script so as most conversations contain effectively the same meaning as they currently do but with radically different text, rather than attempting an alternative and superior translation.

zhade

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #178 on: September 17, 2015, 04:27:18 am »
I've been looking at enemies/cpu controlled characters AI scripts these days, I now understand how it works in general, Ive only looked at the green drop' AI as of now because it has a lot less scripts than the cpu characters but Ive got the most used opcodes figured out so Ill look at the characters AI and see what I can improve. I think the "reaction time" I was talking about is actually how much time to do an action, actions can be something like "attack", "move towards target", "stay idle" etc. Reducing the time makes the AI better because for example if an enemy is moving towards its target for 3seconds, but after 1second it is right next to its target, it will still continue to walk towards the target for 2sec and only then "think" of what it should do next and attack. No action take 3seconds tho so for the most part its not very noticable. I might change the cpu AI action times manually to make them as good as possible and use a divider for the enemies depending on the difficulty setting.
There is also a distance factor that changes how the AI behave. Its kind of what I used to make cpu characters attack enemies that are farther, but now instead of changing what is considered, close, mid, far etc.. I could change what the AI actually does depending on the distance factor. Its kind of hard to work with tho, I can really add more lines unless I move all the AI scripts to another bank so ill most likely do only small changes here and there.

@Whedonesque
-Hiei is working on a retranslation of the game, I beleive he uses most of the original english script but brings back some dialogues that were cut and some that were censored.
Thanatos-zero and RedScorpion are working on a retranslation and expansion of the game and they would like a retranslation from japanese to english, I beleive -Hiei has a translation from japanese to french that is close to the original and translated the bits that were cut to english from it. French is an european language so I thought you might know some even tho you didnt list it ?
Personally french is my first language but even tho im not bad in english, I dont think I would do a really good job translating it.
One of my friends is a professional translator from english to french but he never played the game so It could turn out wrong and I don't know if he would be interested anyway.
If you only want to use the english script and make it better I think using -Hiei's version of the english script would be better because of all the cut content.
I didn't really want to touch the script for this hack because I wanted to focus on improving gameplay stuff and I would like it to be compatible with -Hiei's project because of the cut content that include not only new text but other stuff like a boss and a nice-looking variable-width font.

as for the toggling off the changes, it might be possible for some changes like I did with the difficulty, but it would be a pain to make it for every single changes and It would be hard to balance the difficulty.  like if you toggle off faster charging and play on hard, bosses might be too hard because of their added HP because it was tested with faster-charging. Some stuff like the magic-binding and spell targetting would be way to much work to make it possible to toggle it on and off. I prefer to try to make sure everything I add can be considered an improvement on the original game, but I know I cant please everybody about everything and that everybody dont agree about what is an improvement so thats why I like to have feedback but ultimately I have to choose one way or the other. Btw, did you think of a feature in particular that should be "toggleable" (not sure if thats a real word..) ?

as for helping with play-testing, like I said, I always like to have some feedback so feel free to try the beta patch and post your thought on it here ! I didn't have alot of feedback on the hard version yet, I myself only played it up to upperland, the difficulty seemed ok, hard but not too hard, I got killed twice by spikey tiger but after grinding 1 level for each of my characters I made it with 1cup of whishes and some chocolate left. I dont know if I should add an "insane" difficulty for people who really like it HARD. Im also not 100% sure if enemies hit too hard or not hard enough and if bosses having twice as much HP is too much or not enough  :D

Thanatos-Zero

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Re: Secret Of Mana Gameplay Improvement Hack
« Reply #179 on: September 18, 2015, 08:33:23 pm »
-Hiei is working on a retranslation of the game, I beleive he uses most of the original english script but brings back some dialogues that were cut and some that were censored.
A little misunderstanding.
Hiei cannot translate japanese to english, as he told me in the thread, but he can restore the cut content, like the chainsaw of the Kettle Kin.