[SamIAm]

Gotta agree.. I think there are some cases where Japanese adds to the ambiance of the game. Final Fantasy VII in Midgar, for example. "Legend of the Mystical Ninja" also left some sings and scrolls with kanji, which I think drove the point home that you're in a old-Edo Japanese world.

Legend of the Mystical Ninja is actually the very game I would point to as a good example both of how Japanese Zeroigar is, and to what degree the kanji they left in don't get in the way of the player understanding what's going on.

If the sign right outside Goemon's door in stage 1 that said 江戸 (Edo) didn't bother you, then the little remaining bits of kanji in Zeroigar shouldn't bother you either.

Besides, you simply cannot please everybody with any given translation approach. That's just the way it goes.

[Midna]

Legend of the Mystical Ninja is like Persona. It leaves certain things untranslated for ambient purposes, but it translated HUD elements and everything else the player is supposed to understand.

[SunGodPortal]

Legend of the Mystical Ninja is like Persona. It leaves certain things untranslated for ambient purposes, but it translated HUD elements and everything else the player is supposed to understand.

I like how the Persona games I've played retained things like -chan and -kun. They matter and I don't see any easy way to translate something like that into english.

Besides, you simply cannot please everybody with any given translation approach. That's just the way it goes.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I suspect the game I'm translating isn't very popular and won't ever be popular, therfore I've made the decision that I'm going to translate it the way I personally would want it translated, rather than thinking about the community consensus on such matters. Even though I'm likely to get complaints on it, things like common expressions and formalities are likely to be left intact, just romanized. The game will be in translated, but shall retain it's "Japanese-ness". If anyone doesn't like it I can share my notes and they can do their own translation. Having said that, there probably aren't many other games where I would feel this method is appropriate.

[Seihen]

I like how the Persona games I've played retained things like -chan and -kun. They matter and I don't see any easy way to translate something like that into english.

I have to say, I whole-heartedly disagree on this point, but I guess that falls under the "can't please everyone."  Before I could speak/read/write Japanese, this was my belief as well, but as I've studied the language more, moved to the country, and started translating professionally, my opinion has completely changed. I absolutely cannot stand seeing "-san" or "-sama" written in an English sentence. It feels like the translator has no idea what they're doing.

You would never, ever write 「ミスタースミス」 when translating "Mr. Smith" from English to Japanese. You would write スミス氏 or スミスさん.  So why go the other way around and needlessly drag Japanese honorifics into the English? Sure, there are no English equivalents, but -- and lets be honest here -- they really don't actually convey as much as people think they do in daily Japanese life.

[/rant]

[Zynk]

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I suspect the game I'm translating isn't very popular and won't ever be popular, therfore I've made the decision that I'm going to translate it the way I personally would want it translated, rather than thinking about the community consensus on such matters.

This. As if we romhack/translate games to generally please people. We just want something done for ourselves (wants a game in a language you understand but noone is doing it for you, you do it yourself); and/or share it (here's my work, enjoy it or just ignore it).

@TC: Its okay if you don't want to/don't have the time/no skill to draw an English titlescreen. But would you consider if someone made an English titlescreen (better if it looks like the JP title) and use it for the game?

IMO, you can have the title as "ZEROIGAR" only and ditch the "Choujin Heiki", since this is the only game that has that "Zeroigar" name.

[SamIAm]

@TC: Its okay if you don't want to/don't have the time/no skill to draw an English titlescreen. But would you consider if someone made an English titlescreen (better if it looks like the JP title) and use it for the game?

We're having a guy make some mockups right now, in fact.

IMO, you can have the title as "ZEROIGAR" only and ditch the "Choujin Heiki", since this is the only game that has that "Zeroigar" name.

The trouble with doing this is that so many websites already list the old translation of Choujin Heiki, which is the awful "Super God Trooper". If we don't come up with something else, we risk having that become the de facto subtitle of the game. I'd rather just come up with something else.

I still have mixed feelings about that, to be honest, but there is at least a precedence. There is a lot of old-school anime out there that follows the same (kanji word+kanji word+katakana word) pattern that this game does:

機動戦士ガンダム　Mobile Suit Gundam
機動警察パトレイバー　Mobile Police Patlabor
装甲騎兵ボトムズ Armored Trooper VOTOMS
聖戦士ダンバイン　Aura Battler Dunbine
伝説巨神イデオン　Space Runaway Ideon
魔神英雄伝ワタル　(unreleased outside of Japan)
新世紀エヴァンゲリオン Neon Genesis Evangeleon
 

[SunGodPortal]

So why go the other way around and needlessly drag Japanese honorifics into the English? Sure, there are no English equivalents, but -- and lets be honest here -- they really don't actually convey as much as people think they do in daily Japanese life.

Daily life... But entertainment isn't daily life, is sometimes loaded with symbolism and a change in honorific could indicate a subtle shift in how one character feels about/is approaching the other character. I can understand if you don't like it, but as was implied before, I'm prepared for this sort of reaction. And since I'm not trying to sell something I don't have to worry about pleasing as many people as I can.

I'll try not to get too carried away with it though. But my philosphy is going to be: If I feel it adds charm that cannot be translated into english or done so easily (that will be worth the effort), I'll probably hold on to it. If I get involved in something like this with other hackers after my project is done here I probably won't approach it the same way. This, my first translation, is for me and if others benefit from it, then I'm happy for them. If not, nothing is stopping them from doing their own work.

[Seihen]

That's fair enough. But please don't take my statement of "daily Japanese life" too literally. I mean that honorifics don't carry as much weight as people tend to assume that they do. Don't get me wrong -- I did too as a teenager trawling websites and reading about anime and manga. But looking at it from my point of view now (which is, ultimately, just one person's point of view), there are many other and more natural ways of trying to convey that in English.

If, for example, I always called my best friend Tetsuro "Tetsu." Unfortunately, he and I have been growing apart, and slowly this has gone to calling him "Tetsuro," to eventually "Tetsuro-san."  This is no different from your childhood friend Davey -> Dave -> David. While you cannot carry that exactly in a translation, you could change the way you write the sentence. 「おはよう哲郎！」and 「おはよう哲郎さん！」 could be rendered as "Heya Tetsuro! and "Good morning, Tetsuro!" respectively.

I guess what I'm saying is that before you start work on something, you need to make a conscious decision on whether you want to translate or to localize.  There's no formal distinction between the two, but the former is focused on explaining the nuances and bringing across foreign concepts (at the detriment to flow and narrative) to the viewer, while the latter is focused on bringing across the narrative itself (at the detriment to nuance being lost) to the viewer.  A good example is a joke.  If you translate it as-is, an English speaker won't laugh because the pun doesn't carry over.  If you localize it, you would simply write a new joke to make the viewer laugh.  So was your objective to explain the words of the joke, or to make a person laugh?

That's what should be decided.

[SunGodPortal]

That's fair enough. But please don't take my statement of "daily Japanese life" too literally. I mean that honorifics don't carry as much weight as people tend to assume that they do. Don't get me wrong -- I did too as a teenager trawling websites and reading about anime and manga. But looking at it from my point of view now (which is, ultimately, just one person's point of view), there are many other and more natural ways of trying to convey that in English.

If, for example, I always called my best friend Tetsuro "Tetsu." Unfortunately, he and I have been growing apart, and slowly this has gone to calling him "Tetsuro," to eventually "Tetsuro-san."  This is no different from your childhood friend Davey -> Dave -> David. While you cannot carry that exactly in a translation, you could change the way you write the sentence. 「おはよう哲郎！」and 「おはよう哲郎さん！」 could be rendered as "Heya Tetsuro! and "Good morning, Tetsuro!" respectively.

Understood and thanks for sharing in detail.

I guess what I'm saying is that before you start work on something, you need to make a conscious decision on whether you want to translate or to localize.  There's no formal distinction between the two, but the former is focused on explaining the nuances and bringing across foreign concepts (at the detriment to flow and narrative) to the viewer, while the latter is focused on bringing across the narrative itself (at the detriment to nuance being lost) to the viewer.  A good example is a joke.  If you translate it as-is, an English speaker won't laugh because the pun doesn't carry over.  If you localize it, you would simply write a new joke to make the viewer laugh.  So was your objective to explain the words of the joke, or to make a person laugh?

That's what should be decided.

Interesting point. I guess you could say that my goal is to translate what I can and localize only what I have to. I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but I feel that with a game that comes from Japan, unless the game takes place in a non-fictional area outside of Japan I would like to preserve as much of the game's origin as I can. It means something to me. Just as if I were translating a game from Russia, my goal would be to preserve what I could and change only what I have to. It seems that most people don't care about stuff like this or even think about it. I've always been fascinated by other cultures so to me, my goal in general is to translate, rather than localize. No stupid jokes about James T. Kirk, Chuck Norris or whatever. LOL Now, if it were a game set in 1930's America or Medieval Europe, I would would change my approach.

[Seihen]

Interesting point. I guess you could say that my goal is to translate what I can and localize only what I have to. I'm sure I'm in the minority here, but I feel that with a game that comes from Japan, unless the game takes place in a non-fictional area outside of Japan I would like to preserve as much of the game's origin as I can. It means something to me. Just as if I were translating a game from Russia, my goal would be to preserve what I could and change only what I have to. It seems that most people don't care about stuff like this or even think about it. I've always been fascinated by other cultures so to me, my goal in general is to translate, rather than localize. No stupid jokes about James T. Kirk, Chuck Norris or whatever. LOL Now, if it were a game set in 1930's America or Medieval Europe, I would would change my approach.

There's definitely no right answer or wrong answer. With media, I prefer a more localizing approach, but it can definitely be taken too far (many early dubs in the 90s are evidence of this). It's my feeling that the author wrote (for example) a joke to make the audience laugh, and not to specifically call attention to a certain word choice.  But if I'm translating something unique to Japanese culture or where there's no relevant English equivalent (omotenashi, morai-naki, etc.) it's sometimes better to take it as an opportunity to introduce the Japanese culture to the viewer.

This is a nice example of "doing it wrong."  You're no longer translating, but just basically writing out Japanese in the roman alphabet and then providing a dictionary. Nothing takes people out of the experience more.  A nice rule of thumb for media is: "if you need a translator's note, you should probably re-write it."

[SunGodPortal]

haha I like that example. They were def going overboard with that one.

[SamIAm]

I guess what I'm saying is that before you start work on something, you need to make a conscious decision on whether you want to translate or to localize.  There's no formal distinction between the two, but the former is focused on explaining the nuances and bringing across foreign concepts (at the detriment to flow and narrative) to the viewer, while the latter is focused on bringing across the narrative itself (at the detriment to nuance being lost) to the viewer.  A good example is a joke.  If you translate it as-is, an English speaker won't laugh because the pun doesn't carry over.  If you localize it, you would simply write a new joke to make the viewer laugh.  So was your objective to explain the words of the joke, or to make a person laugh?

That's a very nice explanation.

I've always thought that translation is a lot like projecting a 2D map of the earth: it's impossible to do it perfectly, and every approach has deep flaws. It's up to you to balance what you think looks nice and what gets across the information that you think is important...and what your audience is going to receive well.

FYI, I am definitely going for a "localized" approach with Zeroigar. My philosophy is, if I can't imagine a native English speaker ever saying it, I won't translate it that way.

I've always been fascinated by other cultures so to me, my goal in general is to translate, rather than localize.

Personally, I think that "localizing" is doing a greater service to foreign cultures than straight "translating" because it gives the new audience a better chance to relate to the characters as real people, and anything less than that is, at worst, dehumanizing. Even if Japanese speakers often word things differently, I think that the emotions they feel and the relationships they have with those close to them are 99% the same as what everyone in every other culture experiences. It's by vicariously going through those same experiences as the characters in a story that we are moved in the way that the storyteller wants us to be moved.

When people are playing Zeroigar, I want them to feel the story and the characters as deeply as possible. I don't want them getting caught up because I'm having one of the characters call her big brother "big brother" all the time.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, there is definitely a place for introducing some "Japan-isms" in almost anything. You just have to take things on a case-by-case basis, and be careful where and how you mix them in.

Also.

Legend of the Mystical Ninja is like Persona. It leaves certain things untranslated for ambient purposes, but it translated HUD elements and everything else the player is supposed to understand.

I can assure you that everything a player is going to want to know is translated already. The things we're leaving are garnish. 

[SunGodPortal]

Personally, I think that "localizing" is doing a greater service to foreign cultures than straight "translating" because it gives the new audience a better chance to relate to the characters as real people, and anything less than that is, at worst, dehumanizing. Even if Japanese speakers often word things differently, I think that the emotions they feel and the relationships they have with those close to them are 99% the same as what everyone in every other culture experiences. It's by vicariously going through those same experiences as the characters in a story that we are moved in the way that the storyteller wants us to be moved.

When people are playing Zeroigar, I want them to feel the story and the characters as deeply as possible. I don't want them getting caught up because I'm having one of the characters call her big brother "big brother" all the time.

Well, it would be pretty difficult to dehumanize ChaCha. I guess technically it's impossible to "translate" a game without "localizing" it to a certain degree. I put those words in quotations for a reason. We all probably have our own personal ideas about what these terms mean as well as thier severity.

Ugh... Seems like I have a bad habit of hi-jacking threads...

[Zynk]

When people are playing Zeroigar, I want them to feel the story and the characters as deeply as possible. I don't want them getting caught up because I'm having one of the characters call her big brother "big brother" all the time.

imho Westerners calling their big brother/sister using their names sound cold (esp. if there's a large age gap). Asians have it easy. 

[SunGodPortal]

imho Westerners calling their big brother/sister using their names sound cold (esp. if there's a large age gap).

That's why we use nick-names. I called my brother Jonathan, "Jotch" and my sister Brandy, "Branny".

[elmer]

That's why we use nick-names. I called my brother Jonathan, "Jotch" and my sister Brandy, "Branny".

The point is well made but, as always, there are times when that doesn't work, particularly within the limits of a short-story ... and so we all end up relying upon the sensibilities of the individual translator to do the best that they can with a game/story that they love.

The two main male protagonists in Zeroigar are "Gou" and "Lunoa" ... I think that we just might be making a mistake if SamIAm had their sisters calling them "Gooey" and "Looney"! 

[SamIAm]

It's finished! 

Now we're just waiting for a file submission approval, followed by a news submission and approval.   

Here's a teaser for you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnUtZkT7pVM&feature=youtu.be

[Alcahest]

Even though I'm not a super fan of the yellow font for subs, awesome work!