News: 11 March 2016 - Forum Rules
Current Moderators - DarkSol, KingMike, MathOnNapkins, Azkadellia, Danke

Author Topic: Help me finding 8MB hacks for SNES/SFC ?  (Read 7181 times)

Synnae

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 156
    • View Profile
Help me finding 8MB hacks for SNES/SFC ?
« on: October 02, 2014, 09:25:42 pm »
So far, I've only found three 8MB hacks for SNES/SFC. They are the following:

1) Romancing SaGa 3 (J) (v1.1) - RSaga 3.12+7.2 [Hack20111208_Deva]
2) Romancing SaGa 3 (J) (v1.1) - RSaga Unknown [HackEasy20120809_Various]
3) Romancing SaGa 3 (J) (v1.1) - RSaga Unknown [HackOriginal20120809_Various]

All of them weights 8MB, which apparently is the max rom size supported by the system. But can someone list other hacks that are like this as well (if there are any) ?

October 02, 2014, 09:51:34 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Oh, I forgot to add, but before someone says that rom requests aren't allowed here, then I'll just say one thing: I'm NOT requesting for download links for roms. I just want to know what hacks are 8MB, that's all.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2014, 09:51:34 pm by Synnae »

Grimlock

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 372
  • Graphics Artist, Level Designer
    • View Profile
Re: Help me finding 8MB hacks for SNES/SFC ?
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2014, 10:07:14 pm »
Just out of curiosity.... why are you looking for specifically sized rooms?  Just out of curiosity?

I think I have a dusty rom list somewhere on my hard drive that would list all the sizes, I'm not on my PC right now though.....

KingMike

  • Forum Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7154
  • *sigh* A changed avatar. Big deal.
    • View Profile
Re: Help me finding 8MB hacks for SNES/SFC ?
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2014, 10:20:04 pm »
RHDN should change its name to roomhacking.net :D (not the first time we've seen that spellcheck fail)

But you might have a hard time as there were no official 8MB games, so we don't know what mapping they would've used, and we can only guess.
(which is one positive about higan's current structure: it'll let you define whatever mapping you want for a game)
"My watch says 30 chickens" Google, 2018

Synnae

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 156
    • View Profile
Re: Help me finding 8MB hacks for SNES/SFC ?
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2014, 12:12:11 am »
@Grimlock:

I'm just interested on seeing what an 8MB hack would achieve by pushing the SNES to its limits.

@KingMike:

I'm not sure if I understand what you mean...

Jorpho

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4894
  • The cat screams with the voice of a man.
    • View Profile
Re: Help me finding 8MB hacks for SNES/SFC ?
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2014, 12:47:13 am »
Haven't any of the Super Mario World hacks reached that size yet?  Or do they all stop at 6 MB?
This signature is an illusion and is a trap devised by Satan. Go ahead dauntlessly! Make rapid progres!

KingMike

  • Forum Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7154
  • *sigh* A changed avatar. Big deal.
    • View Profile
Re: Help me finding 8MB hacks for SNES/SFC ?
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2014, 01:15:10 am »
@KingMike:

I'm not sure if I understand what you mean...
Whether or not 8MB would be supported in emulators is kind of iffy as you are basically emulating an imaginary type of cart.
"My watch says 30 chickens" Google, 2018

Gideon Zhi

  • Discord Staff
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3535
    • View Profile
    • Aeon Genesis
Re: Help me finding 8MB hacks for SNES/SFC ?
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2014, 01:51:35 am »
@Grimlock:

I'm just interested on seeing what an 8MB hack would achieve by pushing the SNES to its limits.

There's a patch that expands Star Ocean to 12MB.

puzzledude

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 308
    • View Profile
Re: Help me finding 8MB hacks for SNES/SFC ?
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2014, 07:09:49 am »
Quote
So far, I've only found three 8MB hacks for SNES/SFC. They are the following:

1) Romancing SaGa 3 (J) (v1.1) - RSaga 3.12+7.2 [Hack20111208_Deva]
2) Romancing SaGa 3 (J) (v1.1) - RSaga Unknown [HackEasy20120809_Various]
3) Romancing SaGa 3 (J) (v1.1) - RSaga Unknown [HackOriginal20120809_Various]

All of them weights 8MB, which apparently is the max rom size supported by the system. But can someone list other hacks that are like this as well (if there are any)?

I don't think there are more original 8MB games, from the ones you listed plus of course the Star Ocean, most known for being 8MB. By the way, you upper "three" games are actually 1 game, Romancing Saga 3. There might be some more.

Original Snes hardware (and emulators) actually prefer the 4MB maximum. Above this number the game needs extra chips to bring it to 6 or 8MB. Hacks however use a different method, an Exlorom or Exhirom (for instance SDW:TLC the SMW hack by Fusoya, which is 6MB). I also made a 8MB rom of Alttp, to see where the limit is, and a 3 byte pointer can in theory only address up to 8MB if Exlorom.

However, I don't know how that 12MB Star Ocean hack is mapped. Byuu once said that you can make a SNES game max to 16MB, some however are talking about the "unlimited" size if custom mappings are involved.

DougRPG

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 151
    • View Profile
Re: Help me finding 8MB hacks for SNES/SFC ?
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2014, 08:34:46 am »
Original Snes hardware (and emulators) actually prefer the 4MB maximum. Above this number the game needs extra chips to bring it to 6 or 8MB. Hacks however use a different method, an Exlorom or Exhirom (for instance SDW:TLC the SMW hack by Fusoya, which is 6MB). I also made a 8MB rom of Alttp, to see where the limit is, and a 3 byte pointer can in theory only address up to 8MB if Exlorom.

Wrong, you don't need extra chips to map 6 and 8 MB games, and I think even 12MB. There is no such thing like "The hardware prefer". You can do whatever is possible with the system, and the hardware will do it. For example, Tales of Phantasia is just a normal game (with no extra chips) and has 6MB. I think the maximum size you can have without extra mapping chips is 12MB. I remember byuu saying that in his forum.
The same is valid for SRam. I think the limit is 256Kb.

FAST6191

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3184
    • View Profile
Re: Help me finding 8MB hacks for SNES/SFC ?
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2014, 08:47:07 am »
I'm just interested on seeing what an 8MB hack would achieve by pushing the SNES to its limits.

In a system that routinely saw extra processing power bolted onto carts (aka special chips) and has since seen stuff like 21fx (sadly most of the good links seem to have died) is space really going to be much of a limit? If I was going to be more inclined towards a glib remark I would point at the GBA --  a system with broadly similar power levels and a whopping 32 megabytes of cartridge memory (without bankswitching, with it, or with SD adapters, the system went far far higher). I would argue then the bigger changes came from refinement of the concepts of game design that happened in the subsequent years.

mziab

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 320
    • View Profile
    • mteam
Re: Help me finding 8MB hacks for SNES/SFC ?
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2014, 10:25:43 am »
I don't think there are more original 8MB games, from the ones you listed plus of course the Star Ocean, most known for being 8MB.

Actually, Star Ocean is just 6MB. That still makes it the biggest game for the platform, on par with Tales of Phantasia. AFAIK no official releases went beyond that.

puzzledude

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 308
    • View Profile
Re: Help me finding 8MB hacks for SNES/SFC ?
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2014, 12:27:44 pm »
Quote
You don't need extra chips to map 6 and 8 MB games, and I think even 12MB. There is no such thing like "The hardware prefers". You can do whatever is possible with the system, and the hardware will do it.
Exactly. Maybe I refrased it in a wrong way. If you take a look at all Snes games which were released, you can see that 98 percent are bellow or equal to 4MB. Why is that? Let's call it a standard then.


Quote
Actually, Star Ocean is just 6MB. That still makes it the biggest game for the platform, on par with Tales of Phantasia. AFAIK no official releases went beyond that.
Oh yea, forgot these 2 games are actually 6 and not 8MB. However Romancing saga 3, which I have is 4MB. This makes Star Ocean and Tales of Phantasia the largest official roms released AFAIK.

KingMike

  • Forum Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7154
  • *sigh* A changed avatar. Big deal.
    • View Profile
Re: Help me finding 8MB hacks for SNES/SFC ?
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2014, 12:57:33 pm »
I believe Tales of Phantasia is the only game over 4MB that doesn't also use extra chips.
Maybe that board was developed late enough in the SNES' lifetime that most developers didn't want to make such big games on the console anymore?

I actually dumped my collection of around 600 or so carts (a small handful I couldn't because of special chips), and I found that even only about 1 in 7 of them was over 2MB.
I think the Genesis (cart) library had like 20 games or less over 2MB, out of hundreds of games.
"My watch says 30 chickens" Google, 2018

FAST6191

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3184
    • View Profile
Re: Help me finding 8MB hacks for SNES/SFC ?
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2014, 01:05:39 pm »
I actually dumped my collection of around 600 or so carts (a small handful I couldn't because of special chips), and I found that even only about 1 in 7 of them was over 2MB.
I think the Genesis (cart) library had like 20 games or less over 2MB, out of hundreds of games.

That reminds me, I have been meaning to do some whole ROM set analysis for some time, especially of some of the filesystem using consoles.

Time to look at large hard drives.

Synnae

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 156
    • View Profile
Re: Help me finding 8MB hacks for SNES/SFC ?
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2014, 01:47:27 pm »
Whether or not 8MB would be supported in emulators is kind of iffy as you are basically emulating an imaginary type of cart.

Well... I used Lunar Expand and expanded vanilla Super Mario World to 8MB. I tried all five 8MB versions from the program on two emulators: "snes9x 1.52-rr" and "BizHawk 1.8.2." All of the roms loaded perfectly except for "64 Mbit ExLoROM (8 MB) 2" which gave me a black screen on snes9x. But it loaded fine on BizHawk.

There's a patch that expands Star Ocean to 12MB.

I just patched the game with the DeJap version and tested on BizHawk and snes9x-rr: Both failed to load. Then I tested on Super Sleuth and it loaded, but there's no sound and the game runs extremely fast for some reason. I don't know if that's a problem with the emulator or I just patched the stuff incorrectly.

Byuu once said that you can make a SNES game max to 16MB, some however are talking about the "unlimited" size if custom mappings are involved.

Whoa, 16MB!? How can I patch a game to this size? The Lunar Expand program only expands to 8MB at max. I wanna know how to do it.

I think the maximum size you can have without extra mapping chips is 12MB. I remember byuu saying that in his forum.
The same is valid for SRam. I think the limit is 256Kb.

So... lemme see if I got things right:

12mb is possible both on a physical cartridge and a digital rom, and it would load fine on some emulators?

but then there's 16mb which is only possible with extra mapping chips. Would a 16mb game work both on a physical SNES/SFC and on an emulator?

I think things are becoming slightly confusing...

KingMike

  • Forum Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7154
  • *sigh* A changed avatar. Big deal.
    • View Profile
Re: Help me finding 8MB hacks for SNES/SFC ?
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2014, 02:39:14 pm »
It can't be a full 16MB, because you need some room for the IO registers and RAM.
(and I thought even the proposed 8MB mappings left a bit of that space unusable to avoid overlapping RAM)
"My watch says 30 chickens" Google, 2018

KaioShin

  • RHDN Patreon Supporter!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5699
    • View Profile
    • The Romhacking Aerie
Re: Help me finding 8MB hacks for SNES/SFC ?
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2014, 02:41:33 pm »
If you take a look at all Snes games which were released, you can see that 98 percent are bellow or equal to 4MB. Why is that?

Because EPROM chips were expensive as hell at the time. It's not like pressing a CD later on in the disc based era where it's not difference if the disc is filled to the top or not. Every space upgrade costs the publisher more money. I'm sure they had some good deals with the memory companies, but in the end double cart capacity will have roughly doubled the production cost. If your average game is 1MB and you have a game that needs 6MB, imagine the tears that the finance guys at the publisher will weep. They can't just sell it for 6 times the price as other games (though RPGs usually DID cost extra, at least over here, because of this), so at least some part of the extra costs would cut right into their profit margin.
All my posts are merely personal opinions and not statements of fact, even if they are not explicitly prefixed by "In my opinion", "IMO", "I believe", or similar modifiers. By reading this disclaimer you agree to reply in spirit of these conditions.

puzzledude

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 308
    • View Profile
Re: Help me finding 8MB hacks for SNES/SFC ?
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2014, 03:44:29 pm »
Quote
Well... I used Lunar Expand and expanded vanilla Super Mario World to 8MB. I tried all five 8MB versions from the program on two emulators: "snes9x 1.52-rr" and "BizHawk 1.8.2." All of the roms loaded perfectly except for "64 Mbit ExLoROM (8 MB) 2" which gave me a black screen on snes9x. But it loaded fine on BizHawk.
It doesn't work like that. If you simply expand the original game to 8MB with Lunar Expand, for instance SMW, it it actually not 8MB, since the space is filled with the Exlorom mapping. So after 4.5MB there are only 00 bytes. (SMW is 0.5MB, and Exlorom starts at 4MB). So this falls under 6MB. You need to transfer the data into the last MB (from 7MB to 8MB) and you'll see that snes9x 152 doesn't work. Thus you need to use those recoded emus by Fusoya to actually be able to run 8MB (data beyond 6MB as well).

http://www.romhacking.net/utilities/903/
http://www.romhacking.net/utilities/904/


Quote
I just patched the game with the DeJap version and tested on BizHawk and snes9x-rr: Both failed to load. Then I tested on Super Sleuth and it loaded, but there's no sound and the game runs extremely fast for some reason. I don't know if that's a problem with the emulator or I just patched the stuff incorrectly.
This particular hack was designed for real hardware and for Super Sleuth only as stated in the readme.


Quote
Whoa, 16MB!? How can I patch a game to this size? The Lunar Expand program only expands to 8MB at max. I wanna know how to do it.
With the hex editor of course. Select add bytes and add another 8MB to the already existing 8MB rom. But 16MB is actually more a theory, however 12MB is possible as said by byuu. However I don't know how this can be sone since all pointer caculations to write data end at 8MB. So basically the SNES address can not be calculated by address calculators if the PC address goes above 800000. So there must be some other way, like bank switching.

Note: if you have a 12MB rom, and the data beyond 8MB are 00 bytes (empty) then you can not regard this as 12MB.


Quote
12mb is possible both on a physical cartridge and a digital rom, and it would load fine on some emulators? but then there's 16mb which is only possible with extra mapping chips. Would a 16mb game work both on a physical SNES/SFC and on an emulator? I think things are becoming slightly confusing...
I highly doubt that any emulator will run anything above 8MB (note the upper 12MB hack is not Exlorom as far as I know, so it has a custom mapping which is recognized by Super Sleuth and real hardware).

In fact I can not recommend you to go beyond 8MB.
For instance the best combination is to go for Exlorom or Exhirom mapping and 8MB rom (more that you will ever need for a SNES game). If you fill all banks with data (except for the last part of the rom), the emus by Fusoya will run this normally. For the Bsnes you need to write a custom XML to define the mapping. Similar for real hardware.

The other option is 12MB, but not Exlorom, but rather what the upper hack is using, since this can obvioulsly work on hardware (tested). You are out of luck with emulators in this case, with the exception of Bsnes.


Quote
It can't be a full 16MB, because you need some room for the IO registers and RAM.
(and I thought even the proposed 8MB mappings left a bit of that space unusable to avoid overlapping RAM)
Exactly. The same with 8MB. The last part of the rom is reserved for RAM. So it is not wise to map any data on the end of the rom. I actually tested this in my 8MB test rom. The last 7 banks of 8000 were actually not responding (were reserved) to any new data.


Quote
Because EPROM chips were expensive as hell at the time. It's not like pressing a CD later on in the disc based era where it's not difference if the disc is filled to the top or not. Every space upgrade costs the publisher more money.
Good to know.