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Author Topic: Hard and STOOPID HARD  (Read 10187 times)

Spooniest

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Hard and STOOPID HARD
« on: March 05, 2013, 10:11:51 pm »
I was playing Batman (the NES game) just a minute ago. I'd made it to 4-3 and was getting pretty frustrated, and was inspired to write this topic.

Some games (i.e. Castlevania) are hard, but not impossible or unfair. If you're good at them, you can beat them with relative ease, but it won't be without stress.

Some games, however (like the aforementioned Batman), are just so hard that you begin to understand that it stems from a lack of finesse on the designer's part. It turned out to be harder than FUCK because the stupid bastard didn't know what he was doing, and probably didn't take the time to playtest it properly. It isn't fun.

So which games are just hard, and which games are STOOPID HARD?
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Nec5

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Re: Hard and STOOPID HARD
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2013, 10:14:25 pm »
I beat Batman on the NES many times.  It is very hard.  Personally, I despise "cheap" far more than hard, such as losing energy when running into an enemy body (not his attack) while the enemy loses no energy at all.  This was the norm in older games.
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DankPanties

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Re: Hard and STOOPID HARD
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2013, 10:25:52 pm »
I love NES Batman, but the Joker in that game is just absurd as a boss.

Spooniest

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Re: Hard and STOOPID HARD
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2013, 10:27:53 pm »
You guys must know something I don't, cuz I rage quit already.
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FallenAngel2387

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Re: Hard and STOOPID HARD
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2013, 10:44:12 pm »
I just like that you're trying a different genre for a change :P.

When I was younger I used to have trouble with, I think it's stage 3, the sewer area with the large humanoid enemies. I tried it again not too long ago and found it wasn't as bad. I was horrible at even noticing there was some sort of pattern to enemy attacks and stuff.

Spooniest

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Re: Hard and STOOPID HARD
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2013, 10:47:20 pm »
I just like that you're trying a different genre for a change :P

Kinda came out of left field. What genre am I supposed to have been stuck in?
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FallenAngel2387

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Re: Hard and STOOPID HARD
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2013, 10:51:42 pm »
Admittedly I haven't been around much, but I'm remembering a time when all your topics were about RPG's/general video game storytelling.

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Re: Hard and STOOPID HARD
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2013, 10:55:30 pm »
The only genre I don't really go for is FPS's, not because I think they're bad games, but because I just can't get used to playing games from a first-person perspective. It feels inexplicably unnatural to me.

Anyway, the topic is "What is it that will make a game unplayably hard?"
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Jedi QuestMaster

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Re: Hard and STOOPID HARD
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2013, 10:58:30 pm »
It turned out to be harder than FUCK because the stupid bastard didn't know what he was doing, and probably didn't take the time to playtest it properly.
I think the problem may have been too much playtesting, so the game becomes easy to the playtesters. I also believe this is why hacks end up being "STOOPID HARD" in themselves.

I wrote a post wall of text covering different aspects of hard (I would categorize Batman in the first one):

Frustrating:
These games usually aren't really hard, the obstacles are just so annoying you can't concentrate well enough to get through said obstacles, usu. because you have to keep repeating the same parts of levels you beat 100 times in a row but can't beat the next part on your first, second, third, or even tenth try.

-Ghosts 'n Goblins (man, you have to beat that freakin' thing twice, freakin' Crapcom! Plus, it wasn't even developed by them.  Outsourcing can be a bad thing)
-Perfect Dark (there, I said it!)
-Star Fox (Why am I the only one who had trouble with this?  Beating this game was a serious miracle because I was down to my last life after losing countless others on Andross & suddenly I "lucked out" at the very last shred of hope)
-Street Fighter 2010: The Final Fight (I can't believe I actually had to use Game Genie to beat this game!)
-Super Mario Bros. 2: This is not Super Mario Bros. 2 USA

Challenging:
These are what all "hard games" are aspiring to be, with a lower-than-usual level of head-inducing trauma, these gems stand out far from the crowd... very, very far

-Bionic Commando
-GoldenEye
-Gradius II
-Super C

Meticulous Memorizing of Repetitive Pattern Guesses (MMORPG):
These are the games you will not beat the first time around, either because you simply won't know what obstacle is going to happen next in time to sufficiently avoid it, or because you're too dumb to use the 'pause' button as a lifeline (hey, it's all fair game):

-Battletoads
-Donkey Kong Country (to a lesser extent)
-Ninja Gaiden
-Back to the Future (DeLorean part - I think, unless the cracks in the street are placed at random)

By the way, nice to see the "someone has Ninja'd you" warning again. :thumbsup:

Edit: I forgot one more!

Glitches!
These games are not hard: they're nearly impossible, if not impossible, to humanly beat usu. because some mofo decided to "tweak" the physics without running one last final playthrough... or only running one last final playthrough. We have:

-Action 52 ( I haven't even played through half these games yet because some of them won't even let me "jump" right, or start up)
-X-Men (AI)
-Battletoads on 2 players (someone once said he beat Battletoads on 2 players...)

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Re: Hard and STOOPID HARD
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2013, 11:02:57 pm »
By the way, nice to see the "someone has Ninja'd you" warning again. :thumbsup:

?????????????
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Re: Hard and STOOPID HARD
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2013, 11:17:01 pm »
I agree there are many cases in which difficulty stems from just plain old bad game design.  It all comes down to whether the game suggests that something should be possible if you happen to time it just right and hit the right buttons and find the right random number seed and if you just spend a few hours doing it over and over and over again, when in fact the way the playtesters did it was completely different and considerably less finicky.

-Battletoads on 2 players (someone once said he beat Battletoads on 2 players...)
Yep, there's video on Youtube, if I'm not mistaken.  Like watching intricately-choreographed pairs figure skating, it is.

?????????????
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Re: Hard and STOOPID HARD
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2013, 11:46:01 pm »
There used to be a problem with that warning when the site got upgraded or something a while back. But that got fixed recently.
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granz

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Re: Hard and STOOPID HARD
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2013, 12:11:43 am »
Sunsoft (Batman) was pretty notorious for challenging games, and there was a typical lack of password system / SRAM to make things even worse. Blaster Master was one of those games that really needed a password system, but alas... I suppose there may be ways to shortcut from one area of the game to the next, but I haven't yet found any. It would probably take me an average of 2 - 3 hours to finish it otherwise. I just don't want to dedicate that much time to any game in one sitting.

Off the top of my head, some of the most difficult games I've played are:

 - Zombie Hunter on Famicom. This one easily puts Ghosts 'n Goblins to shame, yet it never seems to come up in these types of discussions. The objective in each level is to find keys necessary to unlock the exit. Unfortunately, these keys drop on a totally random basis. You may have to spend over an hour killing the same enemies over and over again, hoping they'll finally drop the key so you can move on.

This in itself wouldn't be so bad if you actually had a fighting chance versus said enemies, but you don't. They don't drop enough gold for you to purchase healing items, they don't drop healing items often enough in the first place, and the healing items that you do find don't heal enough HP. Good luck getting past the first level.

 - Ultima: Quest of the Avatar for any system it's available on. Without consulting a walkthrough, it's impossible to know how the game is completed. In fact, the game itself doesn't make any of your objectives clear to you. Being in a very open game world makes things more confusing. All you're likely to do is wander around aimlessly and get into random battles until you're tired of playing. Now, if you actually do consult a walkthrough and find out what the hell you're supposed to be doing, the game can be enjoyable.

 - ActRaiser 2. There are lower difficulty settings, but you can't watch the true ending unless you play the game on Hard mode. Even on the easiest difficulty you're going to pull your hair out. The designers positioned enemies to anticipate whatever movement or strategy a typical player would have in mind, and when you play into their hand, said enemies hand your ass to you on a platter.

Next, traps and other obstacles are just plain unfair. You'll have to make 20+ attempts to clear 1HKO pitfalls because your character's threshold for flying and jumping are just barely able to clear such gaps in the first place, and only if you position yourself oh-so-carefully along the edge of the cliff. When these pitfalls appear near the end of a particularly difficult stage, you'll want to ragequit.

Finally, there's the boss fights. Many bosses are oversized and leave you no room to evade their attacks, some are vulnerable only when attacked from certain facings, and there's one boss that has the ability to paralyze then attack you without any chance of failure. Absolutely no maneuver you pull will allow you to evade this ability if the boss so chooses to activate it.

It's also worth mentioning that there's a really long boss gauntlet in this very same stage. Assuming you manage to survive it and get killed by the main stage boss later on, you have to go back and repeat the boss gauntlet all over again.

... but that's not all! There's a second boss gauntlet before the final boss, and this gauntlet consists of every one of the game's major bosses, including the one that renders you helplessly paralyzed. You don't get any breaks between battles, and failing at any point means having to repeat the entire thing.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 12:19:33 am by granz »
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geishaboy

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Re: Hard and STOOPID HARD
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2013, 12:12:03 am »
I picked up Batman for the famicon a little while ago, but am yet to give it a try. Thanks for letting me know what I'm getting myself into.

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Re: Hard and STOOPID HARD
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2013, 12:18:34 am »
I agree that theres games out there that are too hard , but i personally would not put Batman in this category. Well... Maybe for the last boss. I can get to him relatively easily but the last boss is alot harder than anything else in the game imo.

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Re: Hard and STOOPID HARD
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2013, 01:07:13 am »
You want to talk about unfair hard? The Adventure of Bayou Billy, now that game is unfair hard. It blows my mind that they made a game with three distinct play styles, and they managed to make them all damn near impossible. I honestly can not beat the first level of that game.
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Re: Hard and STOOPID HARD
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2013, 01:11:03 am »
You want to talk about unfair hard? The Adventure of Bayou Billy, now that game is unfair hard. It blows my mind that they made a game with three distinct play styles, and they managed to make them all damn near impossible. I honestly can not beat the first level of that game.

Blame the localization team. It was common practice back in the day to ramp up the difficulty for foreign (read: non JP) players.
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Re: Hard and STOOPID HARD
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2013, 08:55:50 am »
Quote
-Battletoads on 2 players (someone once said he beat Battletoads on 2 players...)
It depends if you're talking about the NTSC or PAL version of the game. I think it's technically impossible to play level 9 with 2 players and one of the versions, but possible on the other.

And I agree Batman is horribly hard, I think it's over-rated and this game is STOOPID HARD. At 1st it's ok but once you get to the sewer level it just gets ridiculous.

DankPanties

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Re: Hard and STOOPID HARD
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2013, 09:04:47 am »
Honestly I have no problems with Batman until I get to this bastard:



A little known fact to most, the original Batman for NES was supposed to have THESE cutscenes.  For some reason, those got taken out before the game went to print.  If you are interested in seeing those cutscenes (from a prototype), here you go:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtLVxW0T9HE
« Last Edit: March 06, 2013, 09:21:43 am by DankPanties »

MathUser2929

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Re: Hard and STOOPID HARD
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2013, 09:12:19 am »
Actually, final Batman does have cutscenes. They are more relevant to the movie tho.