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Author Topic: Brutal video game abuse  (Read 14212 times)

puzzledude

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Brutal video game abuse
« on: January 04, 2013, 05:17:03 pm »
A brutal videogame abuse...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Asbjsfepl4Y

It really is a shame how some have no dignity. The word honour is foreign to them. The phrases like making money with someone else's work, abusing video games and boundless benefit to fill their bottomless pockets are however on their daily vocabulary.

And who do I mean by "some" - sites like Timewalk games, who in their nasty business dare to be that sarcastic, to put their name on a spot, where it usually reads Nintendo, and on top of everything thank?? the authors of the game (who's work they've just abused).

And who do I mean by "some" - users like Undead Space Monkey, who are dumb enough to support this brutal abuse with buying such abused cartridges (some cost 137$ WTF) and even show off on the You tube with their abused unboxing.

FallenAngel2387

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Re: Brutal video game abuse
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2013, 05:53:20 pm »
Just by reading the comments I can see he has an overall issue with emulation, which I guess ties into being a collector. I don't think all collectors have it as bad, but this is apparently a misguided sense of justice, where somehow buying this is better than emulating it.


Bregalad

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Re: Brutal video game abuse
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2013, 12:10:44 pm »
Oh I wondered what you meant by "video game abuse". It's yet another overpriced bootleged romhack on a cart.
I can't stress how much I hate those. But I think I already told it several times so it would be pointless to tell it again.

Rhys

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Re: Brutal video game abuse
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2013, 03:59:35 pm »
Why is it so bad to just manufacture new boards for these games instead of destroying old ones? Is it just a cost thing?

optomon

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Re: Brutal video game abuse
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2013, 02:55:03 am »
Am I the only one who likes these here? If anything I thought they are helping the future of retro game. If they are going to decimate copies of Top Gun and other similar defecations with a million copies to make room for newer fan games and quality hacked carts then more power to them. Any hacker knows their work not done for profit anyway. I mean if they are making more money than me at my job then I might reconsider my statements, but I'm pretty sure they don't.

Pikachumanson

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Re: Brutal video game abuse
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2013, 05:34:36 am »
I agree with optomom. If someone thinks that much of my work that they wanna make a buck off of it then more power to them. I just do this for fun not profit. Someone else's work, well that's someone else's opinion.

puzzledude

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Re: Brutal video game abuse
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2013, 08:28:32 am »
The ONLY one, who has the right to SELL Parallel Worlds is Nintendo. They are the only one who own the programming behind this game, since most of the code is intact and is the same as in Alttp. The overworld, dungeons etc were made by the hackers for no cost.

I would love to see Nintendo making a cart, original SNES or adopted for NDS or Wii etc of Parallel Worlds and legalize the whole thing, fixing some glitches and adopt the difficulty in the process. THEN you can buy a cart, and NO sooner.

But what Timewalk is doing is abuse. This is just a few graphic designers who are making the art boxes and one or two guys, who are taking old carts apart, copying Nintendo's code and hackers' designs onto it...and selling it. Yes, selling it... but NOT owning it.

They DON'T own the original code, they DON'T own the new design i.e. all adaptations of the original game, they DON'T even own the hardware, since the chip and casing was taken from some other SNES cart. They DON'T even own the graphic design of the booklet and the characters (all of this is Nintendo's art work of A link to the past game). They are simply copying all that.

A clear proof of that is a booklet info of the dungeons, which describes a map and a compass, which don't exist in Parallel Worlds (it has the second big key and the stone tablet instead) etc.

So I'm simply poiting out how some people sell things they don't own, which is abuse. I've also talked to the authors of Parallel Worlds, who are (in their own words) "all against this kind of actions" and "that they are powerless", since "there is no lawcompany in the world, who would take a case like romhackers vs. cart resellers".

There was a bit of a joke there, since romhacking is on a non solid ground as it is. It could also easily be "Nintendo vs. romhackers/emulator makers/game editor makers".

That's why we, the romhackers, only support freeware IPS/patch files. We DON'T support romfiles on the internet, we DON'T support cart making and we especially DON'T support any monetary action connected with them.

And we DON'T support people bragging on the You tube, how they've just bought an illegal cart. It is like saying: "Look, I'm a dumbass, I've just bought a cart from someone, who doesn't own it, and I've spent 150$ for a game I could play for free. I'm a collector and don't like emulators, I like to be abused by cart resellers instead."

Parallel Worlds was released as an IPS file, not a rom file or a cart. The IPS should be used for PERSONAL purposes only. Making and selling carts or putting a rom on the internet is NOT among those!


FAST6191

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Re: Brutal video game abuse
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2013, 09:03:30 am »
they DON'T even own the hardware, since the chip and casing was taken from some other SNES cart

Though the rest of your list is more than enough to tank them I have to wonder about that- modding/tweaking and selling on devices covered by IP protection is a fairly accepted practice. At this point the closest equivalent I can think of are those people that made extra censored versions of films and when the court case came there it was mainly for breaking the DVD CSS "protection", I am struggling to find a link to the case right now though. There might have been some patent issues at some point but I imagine most of those are gone as well as they would have expired a year or two back (possibly longer as this would have started in the 90's).

tc

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Re: Brutal video game abuse
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2013, 09:25:49 am »
I wouldn't go quite that far. I don't think the game company deserves right to clearly definable NEW content in a rom hack. That is, not just edited or stolen.

The most reasonable middle road to me is getting adequate suppliers of NEW components to build carts with. I'd rather try and reduce the damage caused to existing carts, than tell buyers they can't have a physical copy of the game they want to play.

henke37

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Re: Brutal video game abuse
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2013, 02:43:07 pm »
Hacks are derivative works. Derivative works require the permission of the copyright holder of the original.

tc

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Re: Brutal video game abuse
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2013, 03:34:54 pm »
Perhaps. But the copyright holder should be limited to defense against such things. Not take ownership over the additions to use as they please.

It'd set a bad precedent if a game company tried to claim copyright over a romhack intending to commercially release it without permission.

henke37

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Re: Brutal video game abuse
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2013, 04:02:55 pm »
Agreed, that is something I think is wrong. Derivative works should have shared copyright.

Garoth Moulinoski

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Re: Brutal video game abuse
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2013, 05:22:18 pm »
And who do I mean by "some" - sites like Timewalk games, who in their nasty business dare to be that sarcastic, to put their name on a spot, where it usually reads Nintendo, and on top of everything thank?? the authors of the game (who's work they've just abused).

At least they added a "thank you" section to Euclid and Seph in the booklet.

Am I the only one who likes these here? If anything I thought they are helping the future of retro game. If they are going to decimate copies of Top Gun and other similar defecations with a million copies to make room for newer fan games and quality hacked carts then more power to them. Any hacker knows their work not done for profit anyway. I mean if they are making more money than me at my job then I might reconsider my statements, but I'm pretty sure they don't.

Although I don't think selling hacks on a cart like that is all that ethically sound, specially when the hack authors are against it, I see your point. In fact, you could argue (I think one of these people actually did) that the people who do this are asking money for the service provide, i.e. gutting the cart and making the box and booklet for you. The problem with that argument is that the booklet, map, and box may not be freely available online, like the cover project designs are.

Most people instinctively react to the "hey, that's a romhack" and forget the "hey, someone decided to try and make my romhack into something that could have actually been sold in the market". I estimate that most people would have less of an issue with this practice if their materials were available (so the payment wouldn't go towards the graphics design, but rather, the service of putting the rom into the cart and packaging it all for you).
Who will quote me next?
Disclaimer: If it sounds wrong, I may have been posting while asleep.

Satoshi_Matrix

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Re: Brutal video game abuse
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2013, 03:01:38 pm »
Despite all the negativity going on in this thread, I don't see anything wrong with the sale of hacks/translations in a physical format. It's how I prefer to play. Emulators are only the first step.

justin3009

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Re: Brutal video game abuse
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2013, 11:27:57 pm »
I would honestly feel extremely offended if any of my work was being sold onto actual carts and that person was making the money for my hard work.  Not that I'd want to sell any of the work, but I don't think it's right that someone else should be making money by doing absolutely nothing basically.
'We have to find some way to incorporate the general civilians in the plot.'

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Pennywise

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Re: Brutal video game abuse
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2013, 12:14:22 am »
I think there's enough demand where these repro can make a bit of money, probably enough to sustain their e-business and then some if they're smart. I see Timewalk is now offering repros of Bahamut Lagoon and DQ 1+2, both of which have parts that don't work on an SNES. That probably pisses me off more than anything, but the retards will still buy them.

Zoinkity

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Re: Brutal video game abuse
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2013, 09:17:16 am »
Here's the thing: the reason we only distribute patches is because a patch contains only altered code.  Altered code is effectively new, and bears the implicit copyright of its writer.  The original game still bears the copyright of whoever produced it, plus anyone else who would have rights licensed.  The original game's copyright holder has no claim to your patch, and you have no claim ot their unaltered content.  The only time you get in trouble is if your modified code contains something that infringes the original copyright, such as added artwork/music that would require a license to use.

Another, similiar case would be subtitles for movies.  Translations would be the work of the translator+encoder, and the movie the work of the original producer+distributor.  You need license from both to distribute them together.

Selling modified hardware is fine, unless somebody make resale illegal sometime soon.

The issue is that these people haven't asked permission for using either the original or modified code.  It is a clear case of copyright infringement.  Their claims hacking ROMs is illegal has no foundation.


Let me give you one interesting case in the gray.  Certain PCBs were designed with an extra chip that effectively patches the main ROM.  This was done when an error was found after a production run and it was more cost-effective to simply patch the original.  That creates a unique case, where you don't need to alter the original copyrighted material and would, quite possible, only need to get license for the patch. 

Bregalad

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Re: Brutal video game abuse
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2013, 09:43:50 am »
I would honestly feel extremely offended if any of my work was being sold onto actual carts and that person was making the money for my hard work.  Not that I'd want to sell any of the work, but I don't think it's right that someone else should be making money by doing absolutely nothing basically.
That. If they were selling it for something like $20, I would not mind this much, but what pisses me is how expensive they sell them, they obviously make HUGE profit on it, and when they didn't do anything !
They say it's for the "labour", but in my opinion on a translation the labour goes :
- 90% to the original game maker (full time paid job for several employee for a few months)
- 9% to the rom hacker (a couple of hours a thousand hours of work, depending on the hacks' complexity)
- 1% at the VERY MOST to the guy who put the ROM on a cart (at the VERY MOST 30 minutes of work).

puzzledude

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Re: Brutal video game abuse
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2013, 10:11:26 am »
Here's the thing: the reason we only distribute patches is because a patch contains only altered code.  Altered code is effectively new, and bears the implicit copyright of its writer.  The original game still bears the copyright of whoever produced it.

The issue is that these people haven't asked permission for using either the original or modified code.  It is a clear case of copyright infringement.  Their claims hacking ROMs is illegal has no foundation.

Exactly! Romhacking is doing it's best to stay legal. By presenting the Patches, this is possible, since the patch contains only the changes. That's why we don't support rom files on public sites. And guess what, a cart is a rom, and a very expensive one.

So Parallel Worlds is copyrighted Nintendo feat. Euclid and SePH (and lots of spriters!)... Not Timewalk or Ocd repro.

I am sure if Nintendo asked the authors, they would agree for them to make a legal cart, BUT this will never happen, since the company does not support any emulation at all and considers a game editors such as HM, as an illegal program.

So, in conclusion, no legal carts of Parallel Worlds are possible. If, however, someone is a collector and favours the original Snes hardware, why not make a personal cart for your self.

But if a "third party" who has no right to make such carts at all, still makes them and is selling them, what should we think of this? And what to think of a person, who buys such a cart?

What bothers me the most is not the cart making and buying, it is the You tube bragging. If you must sell or buy illegal rom carts, be (at least) quiet. Making You tube videos about it and embedding them into a public reproduction site is the worst possible treatment, that a rom hack can get (and the authors haven't even been informed about these actions).




That. If they were selling it for something like $20, I would not mind this much, but what pisses me is how expensive they sell them, they obviously make HUGE profit on it, and when they didn't do anything !
They say it's for the "labour", but in my opinion on a translation the labour goes :
- 90% to the original game maker (full time paid job for several employee for a few months)
- 9% to the rom hacker (a couple of hours a thousand hours of work, depending on the hacks' complexity)
- 1% at the VERY MOST to the guy who put the ROM on a cart (at the VERY MOST 30 minutes of work).

I couldn't agree more.


henke37

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Re: Brutal video game abuse
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2013, 03:52:15 pm »
Actually fanmade subtitles are explicit copyright violations. Just transcribing the audio in the original language is creating a copy of the work. Which you obviously aren't allowed to distribute. If you then create a translation you really violate copyright. The international copyright agreement explicitly grants the original author the exclusive right to make translations.

As for the legality of patches, that is a gray area. Aside from the translation angle there is a lot of untested facts. The use of patches mostly helps by requiring people to commit a different, much easier to prosecute, copyright violation. The copyright holders simply focus on the low hanging fruit that actually hurts them. Few sales are lost due to patches, a lot are lost due to total illegitimate copies of released content.