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Author Topic: That moment when you need a guide..  (Read 17095 times)

InfamousKnight

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That moment when you need a guide..
« on: December 25, 2012, 10:03:17 pm »
Don't you just hate it when you need a guide in order to advance through the plot? Or a guide to get a very good item? Or that moment when you're like: "idk how you're supposed to figure this out". For example, in FFIV the after years, you find these small tails and then you put them to use and you have to play "I know what I'm doing" type of deal. So in order to get the adamant armor, you need some certain color combination. You would think that the rainbow color would do the trick but no it doesn't. Then that moment in FFXII when you defeat the King Behemoth, you turn in the hunt and you get some useless award. But then you can get a better award if you go to some place and have the main character unequipped and kick it then you get like 500k gil. Idk how you're supposed to figure that out on such a big game. Also, Idk how the person that figured it out figured it out :P Possibly he looked at the games disassembly? Source code? That's the only way I can think of. I can understand secret passages where you just hug the wall until you find it. Plus, it might have a treasure showing on the screen to indicate that there's a secret passage.

This shit makes me hate FF in a way. Well, sometimes. I never had this issue with final fantasy tactics(well, I needed a guide to get the job classes I wanted).

Tell me some moments on where this happened to you. Yes, I know, I talk about FF a lot but then its a big hit out there.

Jedi QuestMaster

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Re: That moment when you need a guide..
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2012, 11:00:00 pm »
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Re: That moment when you need a guide..
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2012, 12:00:15 am »
About half the puzzles in Alundra.

Gideon Zhi

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Re: That moment when you need a guide..
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2012, 12:12:02 am »
I needed a guide to figure out what to do with the worthless sheep in Session 2 of Sworcery, but it turns out it was just and old version of the app (Android platform) with the touch sensitivity ranges screwed up.

granz

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Re: That moment when you need a guide..
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2012, 01:26:54 am »
I'm a completionist. I don't start any game until I have a guide.
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Garoth Moulinoski

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Re: That moment when you need a guide..
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2012, 02:38:24 pm »
Metroid for NES. I needed it for the map. But it took me like 8-10 years to finally decide "y'know what? FINE. I'll use a guide"

I never grew up making my own maps so I never had that habit. I did write down passwords though.
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DankPanties

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Re: That moment when you need a guide..
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2012, 09:37:31 pm »
I don't like when people start playing a new game immediately with a guide, and then use the guide the entire time they play the game.  I feel like that's cheating or cheapening the experience for themselves.  I also hate when games are designed to require a guide on purpose (in order to sell guides of course).  That said, I don't have a problem with someone using a guide once in a while because they are genuinely stuck in a game (usually due to bad game design).  As I get older and have less time for gaming, I don't have the patience for bad game design that leaves me clueless as to what the heck I'm supposed to do next.  I have a cutoff time of 30-60 minutes before I get flustered and just look up what the hell to do via GameFAQs.  I did not used to be like that, but I just don't have the time anymore to try to figure out the unintuitive bullshit logic of a designer who wasn't doing their job properly.  Patience overrides pride.

Nec5

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Re: That moment when you need a guide..
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2012, 06:52:39 pm »
I don't like when people start playing a new game immediately with a guide, and then use the guide the entire time they play the game.  I feel like that's cheating or cheapening the experience for themselves.
Why do you care how other people enjoy a game?  What you call cheapening others might call avoiding tedious hardships or knowing things in advance to fully enjoy the game (i.e. hidden treasure or characters you might never find on your own).
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Garoth Moulinoski

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Re: That moment when you need a guide..
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2012, 07:16:55 pm »
Why do you care how other people enjoy a game?

Because of the gloating that occurs at the end. "I beat X game!" "Oh, me too! That last boss was hard..." "Lol, the guide I used told me to do this to beat it" "Oh what... I didn't use a guide..."

I don't really care, but I do feel it as a personal badge of honor when I beat a game against the odds. Like friggin' Phantasy Star II ("You should be level something so you can use this spell" No, screw you guide).
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BRPXQZME

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Re: That moment when you need a guide..
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2012, 07:54:36 pm »
Actually, this might be a little off topic, but...

Don’t get me wrong, I like GameFAQs in that it’s gotten me out of many tough jams over the years.

But the text-only thing sometimes makes it really hard to do exactly that; when you have images or even a magazine-style design to the whole thing (mooks, they call ’em in Japan) you can leaf through and let that one part you wanted catch your eye. With text, I sometimes have to try several search terms to find what I’m looking for (never mind that line splits, typos, and the occasional inaccuracy can and does mess even that up), and if the text is too vague to make heads or tails of, oh well.

Anyway, no, I can’t remember too many of those specific moments, but I can remember plenty of games that required a hand-holding because screw it I play roguelikes, where three hours into a game with permadeath that took good luck to get there in the first place is not when I want to experiment with a life-or-death situation.
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geishaboy

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Re: That moment when you need a guide..
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2012, 08:12:08 pm »
I remember reading online guides for Baldur's Gate, not because I was stuck but because I was having trouble saying alive for more than five minutes at a time.

KingMike

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Re: That moment when you need a guide..
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2012, 08:23:38 pm »
I was having trouble saying alive for more than five minutes at a time.
Reminds me when I was having trouble staying alive more than five seconds in Ys Famicom. I think I got the damage sound effect plus game over song implanted in my brain. :P
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DankPanties

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Re: That moment when you need a guide..
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2012, 10:15:15 pm »
Why do you care how other people enjoy a game?  What you call cheapening others might call avoiding tedious hardships or knowing things in advance to fully enjoy the game

What Garoth said is part of it.  For example, I don't feel like someone who beat a tough JRPG's final boss by using a guide to obtain the most powerful secret weapons to do so; IMO they did not truly achieve that victory on their own.  To me, that's pseudo-cheating.  And it's not the same caliber of a victory as the kind of guy who toughed it out and beat that boss without a guide at all.

Another thing is that strategy guides are often a landmine for spoilers.  So by browsing over a guide, the player will inadvertently expose themselves to spoilers and surprises... and in that way, the experience of revealing the unknown becomes compromised and isn't as interesting as it would have been without the guide's foresight.

Another aspect is that strategy guides can become an addictive crutch.  The more a player uses them the less the player relies on their own ingenuity and skill to overcome obstacles in gaming.  In that sense, their patience wears ever shorter until they reach a point where they can't even play complex games without guides at hand.  It becomes a habit instead of an occasional aid.

For those reasons and plenty more, I think that guides are a dangerous tool.  They should be an occasional fix, not a permanent fixture, for any gamer.  A workaround for the bits of inscrutable bad game design we all run into once in a while.  But that's just my sole opinion and I expect not a single person on this forum to agree with me.  Feel free to use as many strategy guides as you guys want.  It's not my game you're ruining.  *no further shits given for this topic or thread*

Talbain

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Re: That moment when you need a guide..
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2012, 10:25:54 pm »
I tend to just use guides when I'm frustrated.  When I need or want X or Y, but don't know how to get it, that's where strategy guides come in (well, more like where GameFAQs comes in).  I tend to do it after I beat the game the first time, making all the mistakes and so on.

DarknessSavior

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Re: That moment when you need a guide..
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2012, 01:07:22 am »
What Garoth said is part of it.  For example, I don't feel like someone who beat a tough JRPG's final boss by using a guide to obtain the most powerful secret weapons to do so; IMO they did not truly achieve that victory on their own.  To me, that's pseudo-cheating.  And it's not the same caliber of a victory as the kind of guy who toughed it out and beat that boss without a guide at all.

Another thing is that strategy guides are often a landmine for spoilers.  So by browsing over a guide, the player will inadvertently expose themselves to spoilers and surprises... and in that way, the experience of revealing the unknown becomes compromised and isn't as interesting as it would have been without the guide's foresight.

Another aspect is that strategy guides can become an addictive crutch.  The more a player uses them the less the player relies on their own ingenuity and skill to overcome obstacles in gaming.  In that sense, their patience wears ever shorter until they reach a point where they can't even play complex games without guides at hand.  It becomes a habit instead of an occasional aid.

For those reasons and plenty more, I think that guides are a dangerous tool.  They should be an occasional fix, not a permanent fixture, for any gamer.  A workaround for the bits of inscrutable bad game design we all run into once in a while.  But that's just my sole opinion and I expect not a single person on this forum to agree with me.  Feel free to use as many strategy guides as you guys want.  It's not my game you're ruining.  *no further shits given for this topic or thread*
I actually somewhat agree with you here, Dank. As a kid, I NEVER used strategy guides. Now, granted, I would occasionally use...say, Nintendo Power or something similar to find some of the cool little hidden things in a game. Like I remember using Nintendo Power to tell me some of the hidden stuff in Chrono Trigger. But I still figured out most of the game on my own.

Nowadays, however, most of the games I'd play (RPGs) are so filled with hidden shit that it's ridiculous. And if you're a completionist, it's hell. Take FF XII for example. How in the living hell are you supposed to know what four chests you're not supposed to open to get the Zodiac Spear? How? Only if you read it online or something, that's how. And that's bullshit. I think people are using guides more and more because of THAT bullshit than anything else. And I can't really blame them.

Or in the case of games like Suikoden. I absolutely adore that series. But even as a dedicated fan, I'll occasionally forget a detail here or there about how to recruit one character. So I'll look it up in a guide. Not nearly as bad as using it for the whole game, though.

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LostTemplar

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Re: That moment when you need a guide..
« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2012, 03:49:11 am »
I basically went through three stages, heavily influenced by how much patience and time I had in that part of my life.

As a kid, I played through everything without any guides (I couldn't afford them - I would've rather bought other games - and there was no internet yet) and inspected every nook and cranny. For example, in Final Fantasy VII, I pretty much found everything a guide could contain on my own.

Then, when I grew older and neared the 20th year of my life I still had a lot of time but my patience shrunk and shrunk. So I usually played through a game once without any guidance, and then a second time with a guide to complete everything (completionist speaking here).

Nowadays, though, I have neither time nor too much patience, so how I proceed depends heavily on the game. If I think I'll play through the game multiple times anyway I'll do the first time without a guide. Otherwise (mostly comfort RPGs) I read in advance if there's anything crucial that can be missed. This sometimes results in the use of a guide throughout the first playthrough because I don't want to play through the game more often than actually needed (complete beastiaries and stuff like that are often the culprit here...) Bear in mind that I like to get all trophies of a game, and if the the game is good but not awesome I don't want to play through it three times just because I missed one item on my unguided playthrough. Also, usage of a guide basically means "look if there's anything missable in the next area".

In conclusion, I favor completion over "look at me, I beat it without guide"! It's what's fun to me. So I don't want anybody tell me that I'm ruining the game for me, because obviously I know best what I enjoy and what not. Also, I feel confident enough in my gaming prowess that I think I could beat most, if not all modern JRPGs without a guide anyway.

PS: This applies mostly to (J)RPGs. With other genres I don't usually use a guide.

Paul Jensen

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Re: That moment when you need a guide..
« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2012, 08:16:31 am »
I used to use guides all the time when I was a kid, especially for RPGs and things.

These days I only use a guide when I get stuck or impatient, or when a game has bugs, like in the revolver scavenger mission in Borderlands.
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geishaboy

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Re: That moment when you need a guide..
« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2012, 08:28:12 am »
I just remembered that I sometimes use guides for games (particularly RPGs) that I have put down and come back to after a while. Though the guides I read are as much to jog my memory regarding the story as the progression of the game itself.

DankPanties

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Re: That moment when you need a guide..
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2012, 10:22:33 am »
If it was 2013 I wouldn't bother revisiting this thread but since it's still 2012 for a few more days...  let's slip'n'slide some more then.

Take FF XII for example. How in the living hell are you supposed to know what four chests you're not supposed to open to get the Zodiac Spear? How?

That's probably the most extremely obvious case of a game having a "must buy the guide" portion I can think of.  That said, I beat the game just fine without any of the Zodiac weapons, so it's hardly mandatory.  It's something put there for people who are completionists I suppose.

Bear in mind that I like to get all trophies of a game, In conclusion, I favor completion over "look at me, I beat it without guide"! It's what's fun to me. So I don't want anybody tell me that I'm ruining the game for me, because obviously I know best what I enjoy and what not.

Conversely I think collecting all the trophies and widgets in a game is an absolutely pointless affair.  It's a waste of time IMO.  Actually Anachronox has these things called TACOs that you can find and collect.  You find out a few hours later that TACO stands for "Totally Arbitrary Collectible Object", which I thought was hilarious and deliciously honest.

Quote
I feel confident enough in my gaming prowess that I think I could beat most, if not all modern JRPGs without a guide anyway.

Just not confident enough to find all the trophies on your own though?  I can't help but imagine if you found all those trophies on your own, you'd feel more victorious than having someone point out where they are to you.  That's like going on a scavenger hunt except every target item already has its coordinates in your GPS unit.  What's the point...   :-\

So let me take us back to the mountain analogy.  If a JRPG is a mountain, the FUN to me comes from finding my own way up to the top of the mountain, and finally standing on the summit.  Most of the fun is finding my own way up, finding my own path through the treacherous sides.  That means the journey itself is a large part of the fun, and makes standing on the summit all the sweeter if I do it all on my own.  Now arbitrary collectibles are to me like weird flowers or rocks along the path.  If I happen to find one, that's nice, it's a cute souvenir.  But scouring the entire mountain to try and catch them all is absolutely not something I would bother with personally.  And lastly, using the mountain analogy, any time I reached for a guide I would feel like I was using an escalator for a moment.  Or at least hiring a tour guide to get me past harder parts of the mountain.  In that way, when I reached the summit, the victory of the climb wouldn't feel was sweet.  I'd have a tinge of guilt.

BUT THAT'S JUST HOW I FEEL.  We all play games for our own reasons.  And as long as you have fun, it ultimately doesn't matter how you play the game.

I just remembered that I sometimes use guides for games (particularly RPGs) that I have put down and come back to after a while.

That is understandable.  Actually Anachronox has a built in feature to tell you where your next objective is and what you're suppose to be doing.  Although it doesn't tell you exactly how to do so.  It's a nice feature to keep you on track though and I wish JRPGs had it often.   That's not to say Anachronox doesn't have its own problems, it definitely has some big issues.  But that's for another thread.

KingMike

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Re: That moment when you need a guide..
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2012, 11:10:46 am »
Take FF XII for example. How in the living hell are you supposed to know what four chests you're not supposed to open to get the Zodiac Spear? How? Only if you read it online or something, that's how.
Open none of them! That'll show Square-Enix! :D
(okay, I haven't actually played the game, so I don't know how realistic that is.)
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