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Messages - Furluge

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...You say that clusters cannot be shared by more than one different file, but a file will take up as many clusters as it needs to to occupy the hard drive space it requires...and sometimes clusters are just not completely used by the number of bytes in the file, and part of them is empty, but still counted against total hard drive space?

...I think I followed you?

Yeah that is it.  You can imagine your clusters like a box. You label the box with what is inside, so you only put one type of thing in each box.  Like if Ghaleon's Abba collection takes up five and a half boxes, you will use up six boxes because you that remaining one half a box remaining needs a place to go.

2
498,555,792 bytes in Size.
498,556,928 bytes in Size on disk.

...I don't know the difference between the two and they are the same number of figures so here?

Size on disk is how much space your file takes on your disk due to how it is formatted. Hard drive sectors are organized into clusters and only one file can occupy a cluster though a file may be in multiple clusters. Any space left over in the cluster is wasted. For example ntfs has 4kb clusters by default so a 1kb file takes up 4kb on the disk.

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Still having problems making the Popful Mail patch work. Can anyone verify that they've got it working? And if so, what version of ISO was being used? And what are its hashes or other identifying characteristics?

Yes I got it working. I'm using it with the lr-genesis-plus-gx core for Retroarch with the current distro of Retropie. Audio skips a but and I only tested to the part of the first level but it seems to work ok. I doubt think the hash will help since it should be different if you have different source image. I used a bit/cue image and used the batch file for patching a bin on Windows 7. It output an iso and waves for cd audio tracks, I copied these files and the provided cue to the pie and ran it.

4
Furluge.

Do. you. have. anything. positive. to. contribute. to. the. discussion?  :huh: :huh: :huh: :huh: :huh: :huh:

The. Patch. Itself. Is. Quite. Nice. I. Did. Not. Really. Care. For. Popful. Mail's. Difficulty. Increase. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

5
over something 99%, that even give a shit about this in the first place, thinks is bad. Shitty localization is shitty localization.

I hate to tell you this but the number of people upset by the localization of the Lunar games is far outweighed by the number of people who like it.

It's unreal how some people rationalize attacking perfect strangers for making stuff they don't like, moreso when the amount of work involved is that important and often going thankless at best. If you're irritated by this so much, just move on rather than making the day worse for everyone involved.

Expressing concern and disagreement is not an attack. Let me tell clue you in on a little behind the scenes. Since I have a new account, my posts up until this and my previous post have required moderator approval before posting. That means a moderator had to see, read and approve it. If there was anything that violated rule#1 of the forum, "Act friendly, maturely, and respectfully to all your fellow community members," you and I wouldn't even be talking right now.

You're going quite a bit out of your way to interpret what I said as heinously as possible. When I expressed approval of "removing the obnoxious Working Designs credits", I was referring to the fact that unlike every other game publishing company I've ever seen, Working Designs insisted on listing their own staff in the most prominent positions at the very top of the credits, displacing the credits for the game's actual directors, producers and so on. As I explicitly stated, removing those credits was a side effect of copying over the cutscene from the Japanese version rather than some malignant action on my part. I have absolutely no desire to withhold credit from anyone involved in the production of the game, and Working Designs certainly did. If those had been the only credits in the game, I would have taken more care to leave them in, but the fact is that the game has no less than two other staff roll sequences in which Working Designs receives full credit.

Despite your assertions to the contrary, I do, in fact, hold a great deal of respect -- of a kind -- for Working Designs and Victor Ireland. The guy went to Japan, made contacts, hashed out licensing deals, and made all the arrangements to have these games translated, dubbed, and reprogrammed for release in the US. That takes a level of effort and organization far beyond anything I could ever manage, and in that respect he's an admirable figure. The problem is that all that effort ultimately went into creating gag translations that fundamentally misrepresent the original games. "Enthusiasm" and "it was 20 years ago" are not excuses for ruining someone else's creation, and I know of no other company that engaged in the kind of egocentric, wholesale script replacement that Working Designs did. The Working Designs rewrites are incredibly disrespectful to the authors of the original works, and I will not apologize for rightfully disparaging them.

Increasing games' difficulty in the West, though it certainly happened, was hardly "standard industry practice" -- there are hundreds of examples of contemporary games that were left untouched or even made easier for international release (especially in the 32-bit era and beyond -- Final Fantasy VII and VIII didn't have their difficulty cranked up in the US, but Alundra and Silhouette Mirage sure did!). But putting that aside, I do understand that Working Designs had a substantial commercial motive: to make money, they needed to reduce rentals and sell strategy guides, and making the games harder was an excellent way of facilitating those goals. Now, I hardly think Vic was using the money to line his own pockets -- the point was to keep the company solvent and able to release more games. Unfortunately, that does nothing to mitigate the fact that the increased difficulty of the games makes them -- to my tastes -- less enjoyable than the originals, which is why I'm making these patches in the first place.

My point with all this is that Working Designs was not simply "following the crowd", as you would have me believe. Their releases of games pervert the originals in a unique and disgusting way far beyond any of their contemporaries, and they deserve all the criticism they get for doing so. It's great that they brought the games to the US at a time when no one else would, but it's absolutely appalling how they did it. If Victor Ireland's come to acknowledge that, great! (From what people are saying about Gaijinworks and Summon Night, it doesn't sound like it, though.) But frankly, I don't have anything to ask him that he hasn't already made crystal-clear.

Obviously I don't think you and I are going to come to any sort of agreement. I mean I could pull up other examples of US releases being made harder or other examples or comments from other translators about what goes into translating something comedic from Japanese to English, but that obviously isn't going to sway you as you're pretty set on hating WD. I would implore you to revise your word choices vs the inflammatory route you've gone with. It's going to be better in the long run. Even if that's what you personally thing a more diplomatic face is what you should have on your posts and notes. If you think I'm taking things the wrong way, that's just how it can look to a stranger, reading your text, who has never met you before.


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Once you put something up for sale you lose any right to have your feelings protected in this sort of thing.
People paid for Lunar and got fart jokes, we are allowed to call it what it is, a bastardization. If this was a fan translation I could see how you would want us to be more respectful since it was done using someones free time but this was his job. I don't care if it was one of the first, I don't care if it paved the way for the future, in the end it is a bad translation and I will gladly call it like I see it.
I cut him some slack but I don't cut his work the same slack.

Well then if you are going to be hateful you should not be surprised when you deservedly get hate back in kind.

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Also, Battletoads was a Rare (based in the UK) production.

Looking back on my exact text I realize I wasn't precise in my wording, so to be clear. Yes I know Rare is in the UK and yes the US version came out first. It would have been more correct to say it was standard industry practice to release more difficult versions to the US market than using the Japanese market than to say altered. That is not debatable. The US Battletoads is objectively harder than the JP one. The same as JP Contra Hard Crops has life bars where the US is one hit kill, Ninja Gaiden 3 JP has unlimited continues where US has 3, etc. My poor word choice doesn't change the point being made. Sorry if that made it more confusing to understand.

It's possible to be appreciative and critical of someone at the same time.

I am going to stop you right there. I know your opinion and I understand it, but go back and actually read what I am pointing out, are those the statements of someone appreciative or respectful who just doesn't think the localization meets their standards 20 years later? Should we start cursing Kensuke Tanabe, Shigeru Miyamoto and Hiroshi Yamauchi for turning Doki-Doki Panic into Super Mario Bros. 2 in the US? You have to understand when you are inflammatory about something a lot of people like a lot you are going to attract negativity.

Oo..there was a female half nude monster in the SegaCD version of Lunar 1? Just how different was this game compared to the remakes!?

There are a lot of changes in the remake, IMHO for the better overall. Lunar TSS compared to EB Studio Alex really solidified the core gameplay ideas of Lunar in EB. It established the inventory and equipment system and restorative item balance and various common ranges like enemy zone spells and the different strengths of the dragon spells. These improvements carry over to SSSC. In TSS Your inventory window is Nall's inventory and carrying items into battle requires equipping them into an equipment slot but you have many many more slots and a lot more armor pieces. There are althena herbs you get for free from Ramus end game that max heal the whole party on use. The remake adds a lot more about the four heroes and Ghaleon's motives. Both are worth playing and there is no excuse not to but there is no reason to feel like you missed out with the remake vs the original. The Story in TSS is still quite good though IIRC SSSC does some editing to tighten up the narrative where I think TSS got a bit rambly at the end. Please forgive me if I do not remember as well I have not played TSS again since 1995.

The blatant white knighting is what bothers me the most though, as if Ireland is going to spontaneously burst into tears because somebody harshly criticized his work.   

Since you aren't catching the nuiance of what I have been trying to say, here is a TL;DR just for you

TL;DR: Yeah I understand why you might not like the translation 20 years later but that doesn't mean you need to be an asshole about it.

(Or I dunno DantzB, maybe you think removing stuff like credits from someone's work is cool or something?)

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I didn't know about rental games being banned in Japan, though -- that's really nuts. Seems like Japanese law is way too corporate-friendly, at least when it comes to games.

Wait you seriously are not aware of this? Yeah game rentals are still illegal in Japan. Here is an article on it.

You were aware that it was a standard industry practice for the US releases of games to be altered to be harder right? One infamous example is Battletoads, but the entire video game industry did this at the time. If you weren't aware that might explain why you think this is a WD thing. Here is a post on NeoGAF all about it.

Have you been already noticed by senpai...?

It's funny how much hate torrent is coming your way from there about being a purist weaboo not understanding the unreachable secrets of the localisation craft, despite the patches still not including translation changes, or Vic Ireland himself admitting that Exile 2 and Lunar 2's balance changes were indeed a mistake, among other similar less direct comments explaining why they had to do these changes, not that they were good or improvements in any way (about Silhouette Mirage, Popful Mail, and other games).

He is getting a "hate torrent" not for the patch itself it is what he says in his opening, notes and other posts. If he was respectful to the original producer of the translation (You know the people who put their money where their mouth is and put in the work to bring the games over and do the voice acting in a time when that was a brand new thing.) no one would complain. As the old wisdom states: "Don't start none, won't be none."

So if you haven't heard the story by now, Working Designs was an American game publisher in the '90s that specialized in licensing niche Japanese games, totally rewriting their scripts to insert crude jokes and pop culture references, completely wrecking their difficulty by jacking up all the enemies' stats and adding other cheap impediments, then releasing them in the US. (If you like the sound of that, these patches probably aren't for you.)

Most of the games they put out are sufficiently esoteric that no one's interested in doing a retranslation, so often, these butchered versions are the only way to play the games in English. That seemed like a real shame to me, so lately I've been working on this little project to restore the gameplay from the Japanese versions of these games. Since I'm not a translator, I can't do anything about the made-up dialogue, but I'm aiming to at least get the difficulty back to what it was intended to be (and for Lunar, to get the script in lower case!).

Personally I actually like the patches themselves. The sole problem is Supper's attitude coupled with what seems to be a lack of knowledge of the history of the industry at this time. I can also honestly see wanting to go back and do a more literal translation too, but you can't forget this game is over 20 years old and that the industry was different then. Shitting all over a team made up of enthusiasts who poured their soul into bringing over games they wanted to see in the US, anime games from before Pokemon made anime mainstream in the US, because they don't meet your standards 20 years later is not cool.

The funny thing is, again, Victor Ireland is not some cloistered figure in some unassailable corporate ivory tower. He just has a small team and is not hard to contact. If Supper were actually respectful he would probably be getting heartfelt support from the original translator. He could actually get some answers to his questions but since he is so focused on hating them it is never going to happen.

If the OP wasn't enough here are a few other egregious entries from the patch notes.

Quote from: Unworked Designs Popful Mail Patch v2 Notes
Other changes in the US version (e.g. the new title screen music, using C instead of Start to open the menu, the horrible horrible made-up script) have been kept.

Quote from: Unworked Designs Lunar 2 Patch v2 Notes
This is a patch that fixes many issues introduced in the US version of the Sega CD game Lunar: Eternal Blue by its publisher, Working Designs. As you're probably aware if you're reading this, the US release of the game was heavily bastardized;

...

* The opening cutscene, which was mildly censored for the US version, has been replaced with its Japanese version. This has the not-unpleasant side effect of removing the obnoxious Working Designs credits. (They're still in the ending.)(Ed: Cheering about removing the original localizers/voice actors credits from the game is kind of disrespectful. Given the tone about the removal in the opening it is ambiguous if Supper's comment about the ending credits is and admission to assure the reader that credit is given at the end, or disappointment at not being able to remove it at the end.)

Incidentally the Vay patch notes are fine. I can't find anything to complain about. I imagine Supper got more diplomatic after realizing he was upsetting a lot of people.

My main point here is that the rewritten script might be subjectively "better" or "worse" than the original, depending on your tastes, but it's just that -- rewritten. It's not presenting the Japanese more effectively, it's making up something new. And do see Vic's insane defense of the changes, as quoted above (from a Gaijinworks thread about these very hacks, I might add).

For anyone who wants some context you can read the thread yourself. (He is talking about Lunar being in our future btw, not Popful Mail.) Victor is pretty frank about the changes and why they occured. Probably the most relevant quote.

Quote from: Victor Ireland 1-3-2017
My localization philosophy has been evolving over the last 25 years! You have to remember, when I started, there were no real guidelines - you had pretty much direct translations, or...nothing. Localizing content the way I did it was pretty revolutionary, and while it was over-the-top initially (again, nothing to use as a guide in the beginning), it's evolved over time. That said, almost everyone else doing Jrpgs headed my direction to varying degrees once I laid it all down and we started releasing games localized in a very different way from what was out back then. The rep for Game Arts said it best one of the times he was visiting. He said, "For such a small company, you cast a long shadow."

LUNAR PSX translations were based on the SEGA CD version to a point. LUNAR 2 was supposed to be Zach writing it, but I ended up re-writing quite a bit of what he did, because he had just broken up with one of the other employees at WD and wrote the female characters (most notably Jessica) like total bitches and sex objects, which was wildly inappropriate. Then I had to finish what was left (while recording in the studio, too), because when the text was supposed to be done, he wasn't even close, making excuses about computer crashes, etc that were total BS. It's also the reason Nall is talking about stuff that isn't there in the PSX version of LUNAR 2 in the cave. That was copied verbatim from the SEGA CD version by Zach and missed in the rush to rewrite/finish the text by me. It was really a terrible last 1/4 of that project.

But yes, please keep insulting him by taking one quote out of a full conversation and calling him insane. That will make things better.

If anyone is interested in comparing the JP/EN scripts for themself, I can upload my dialogue extraction tools.

Or for those who do not read Japanese the Lunar changes can be found below.

Lunar The Silver Star English<>Japanese differences Compilation
Lunar Eternal Blue English<>Japanese differences Compilation
Lunar Silver Star Story Complete English<>Japanese differences Compilation
Lunar2 Eternal Blue Complete English<>Japanese differences Compilation

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Uh...what was the actor who played Alex's name? Ashley Angel?

He sounds like he just shit himself.

Yeah Ashley Angel is Alex in L:TSS and L:SSSC. For more lulz look up "O-Town" XD

Quote from: Now imagine if you will this scene...
Magic Emeperor: Tell me Alex, did ol' Victor Ireland tell you what happened to your voice actor.
Alex: He told me enough! He told me you killed him!
Emperor reveals helmet to reveal Ashely Angel
Ashley Angel: No Alex, I am your voice actor.
Alex: That's not true, that's impossible!
Ashley Angel: Come with me Alex, join O-town!

10
Looks like I'll be finishing the Epilogue of the "arguably unplayably, frustratingly difficult" Lunar Eternal Blue for tomorrow's broadcast.  :thumbsup: Got to that last dungeon and heard that Star Dragon tower  track and could feel how close that ending was.

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I'm with Supper on this one. I don't think less of people for enjoying Working Designs stuff, but looking at the original script, it's clear there was a little too much localization going on. Taking a relatively serious work and trying to add in comedic elements and pop culture references doesn't normally end well, sorry to say (and in that regard, j2e is a very apt comparison). Plus putting your own names before those of the actual developers is pretty arrogant.

Everyone is welcome to their opinion, but it is pretty obvious you have an ax to grind for some reason. I am not really sure you would be happy with any translation intended for a mass audience. Having looked over the differences I personally am not bothered by them and I doubt you are going to find anyone beyond real diehards who want everything literaly translated with liner notes being too upset by it.

Again, putting aside whether the new dialogue is "better" or "worse", it rarely represents the original material except in the broadest strokes. I'll just link you to my writeup at TCRF: https://tcrf.net/Lunar:_Eternal_Blue/Regional_Differences#Dialogue

You realize I have already posted links to complete write ups of the differences for all the WD games in this thread? This information has been available for anyone who wants to read it for years. The fact that you are linking me to /another/ writeup shows you aren't actually reading what I'm posting. Why would I need a link to your own personal translation when I already have one from a more trusted source? Also I have to be honest with you, "Maou" vs. "Destroyer" is not the strongest difference you could have gone with there. There's good reason to go with destroyer vs demon king considering the connotations in English. Demon's don't have the same connotation they do in Japanese as they do to an American, largely judeo-christian believing audience.

12
Pardon my ignorance, but was it only the SEGA CD versions that were butchered? I've only played the PSX versions (I did try to play the PSP version of Silver Star, but was put off by some of the design choices).

Lunar:SSSC Differences
Lunar 2:EBC Diifferences

I wouldn't worry too much about the translation quality in any of the Sega CD or PS1 versions. Seriously, here is one of the differences from the major category.

Quote from: Lunar:SSSC English Working Designs Translation
"Emperor Ghaleon likes pixies, so he had the Vile Tribe capture us for his garden. It's beautiful and peaceful here, but it's still a prison."

Quote from: Lunar:SSSC English Kizyr's Translation
"We pixies who were living in the Frontier were about to die out. But, Ghaleon helped us."

Other examples from major differences include Myght being described as (wd english former, kizy's latter) a cranky old man with a bo problem vs just being a hermit, or Mia supposing Ghaleon loved Althena vs just stating she thinks he wants to replace him. Minor changes include things like asking Jessica about the giant cannon in Mel's basement vs Talking about turning the mansion into a it into a giant fighting robot.

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Funny thing, that. The lower case font was actually already in the game and fully functional (in fact, the entire English font is included in the Japanese version). All I had to do was change the text. I think they did it that way because the lower case letters have a different baseline from the upper case ones, so they look a bit sloppy together, but it's such a ridiculous solution I have a hard time believing it.

On a related note, I might edit the font in the future to fix the baseline issue, though I'll have to write a compressor for the wacky font format first.

If you really want to know you could just ask Victor Ireland, he would probably tell you why they canned something they did all that work on..  :thumbsup:

14
I have to say I am a bit put off by all the negativity here. I don't think the localization of Lunar Eternal Blue is what you would call butchered or "j2e or 4kids" based on that catalog of edits. (Linked below) Honestly I think you are going to be hard pressed to find a team that cared as much about the source material and putting out a quality product as WD was. That being said good luck with your project, I hope it turns out to be everything you want it to be. Pointing it out I can see some of the difficulty changes pretty clearly, especially in MP costs. Magic XP to save was clearly a mistake (I would be interested in a patch that just removed this.) as WD admitted themselves in the book for Lunar EBC. The lowercase font does look very nice as well.

Lunar.net has all the differences between the uncut Japanese version and the J2e/4Kids-like abortion that Working Designs did for the Lunar games.

The site you want is actually www.lunar-net.com. (I think Mickey really wanted the .com address. It was hard to get new internet users to visit anything but .coms in the mid 90s, or they would always put .com at the end anyway.) Here is a link to the changes in Lunar Eternal Blue.I think in light of the changes your description of the translation isn't really all that fair. Actually I would go so far as to say it is a very good translation, but to each their own I suppose.

Yes, Working Designs jacked up the difficulty on Lunar to arguably unplayably frustrating levels for no readily apparent reason.

As someone who was the target audience when these games first game out they are not remotely unplayable. They are actually a bit on the easy side for games of the time and don't require lots of level grinding as was the norm back then. I have actually been playing the game again recently. I remember at the time  friends thought it was strange you beat the game at around level 50. Fighting final bosses who do 9999 regularly was kind of the norm back then.

Got I loved Lunar silver star so much as a kid, I hate that it was butchered so hard, to think I could of been playing an even better game! The Lunar games need a legends of localization.

I don't think you have too much to be disappointed about. Here is the catalog of changes to the original if you would like to see them. Translation is not an exact science so you are going to have a number of changes depending on who does it. The question is more which final version do you personally prefer. I would recommend you look at the changes and judge for yourself.

Voice redubs are doable considering this was amateur level voice acting back in the day, so I think anyone can pull that off if needed.

I think you might consider it amateur voice work now but I don't know if you would call it amateur voice work back in the day. There were a lot fewer good dubs for anime back in 1995 and next to none in video games back then. Even when the PS1 remakes came out the voice work was better than what was the norm. Personally I like the dub work but I can see how someone like Funimation could put together a better one these days, though it is a short list of dubbers who dub songs as well. Pioneer was the last group I remember who made a habit of that.

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