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General Category => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Blossom Knight on November 14, 2021, 03:34:59 pm

Title: Blue Magic on Final Fantasy.
Post by: Blossom Knight on November 14, 2021, 03:34:59 pm
Everyone if you do play Final Fantasy 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10 do you ever use the Blue Mage?

I rely on him or her alot. I found a guide about on 5 and 7 I'm looking for one on 6, 8, 9, and 10 and nothing notta zip.

Do they really think the Blue Mage is a waste of time?
Title: Re: Blue Magic on Final Fantasy.
Post by: FAST6191 on November 14, 2021, 06:41:15 pm
I typically play Final Fantasy with maybe not a stats maxing/game breaking mindset but something like it for a reasonable amount of effort (I do like to explore, and will grind for a bit but it wears thin before long). If blue magic plays to that then I will use it, and most things are surprisingly well balanced here, though the mix of effects can be quite nice (maybe not as powerful but nice mix of status effects and element damage dealing) for an all rounder character.
More often than not trying to learn things in it is tedious or best done with a guide/notepad though so that does counterbalance it a bit over using someone else.

On a related note I have been quite enjoying this series comparing Final Fantasy games and evolutions within them and might as well go for the Blue one given the topic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mvg7ta05BGk
Title: Re: Blue Magic on Final Fantasy.
Post by: Blossom Knight on November 14, 2021, 06:48:52 pm
But that video is from Final Fantasy Union. And the only one from that I saw was about ultimate weapons.

So let me ask you this. What is your favorite blue magic spell in any game?

Mine's the Beta enemy skill from Final Fantasy 7 and it's all the whrilwind of fire in witch it's fromm hell.
Title: Re: Blue Magic on Final Fantasy.
Post by: Jorpho on November 14, 2021, 07:49:31 pm
Big Guard in FF7 is mighty handy.  But then, the whole materia system is kind of broken to begin with, and it just makes it even more broken.
Title: Re: Blue Magic on Final Fantasy.
Post by: Blossom Knight on November 14, 2021, 07:53:32 pm
How broken?
Title: Re: Blue Magic on Final Fantasy.
Post by: Jorpho on November 14, 2021, 08:58:34 pm
The game is just too easy in general, and some of the materia combinations are just completely overpowered. Surely people have been saying as much for the last twenty years?
Title: Re: Blue Magic on Final Fantasy.
Post by: thr on November 14, 2021, 09:09:22 pm
in FF6, Strago plays the blue mage role with his 'lores'. there's plenty guides on that (like here (https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/snes/554041-final-fantasy-iii/faqs/35612), here (https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/snes/554041-final-fantasy-iii/faqs/31096) or here (https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Lore_(Final_Fantasy_VI))).
in FF8, Quistis learns blue magic for her limit breaks. ff8 is quirky, so it works a bit different here, and she learns blue magic by using items, not by fighting enemies. but the main principles still stand, and she still gets the role staples like big guard, aqua breath or w/e. here (https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Blue_Magic_(Final_Fantasy_VIII))'s a list.
in FF9, Quina takes the role. s/he learns blue magics by eating enemies, and here (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=665382782)'s a guide on that.
in FF10, Kimahri learns blue magics from the enemies by using his lancet skill, and can then use them for his overdrives. they're called Ronso rages in this game, and here (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=682967292)'s a nice guide about this.
in FF10-2 you get back a dedicated blue mage role (gun mage) for all party members. so it's back to the classic approach, and works just like you'd remember from the earlier games. i.e. a gun mage gets hit with a learnable enemy skill, and she learns it for her skillset. here (https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/ps2/562386-final-fantasy-x-2/faqs/27313)'s a guide.

the later installments have a blue mage role too, but you didn't ask about these, so there ya go. but they're still using the role and experimenting with it. even in FFXIV, playing a blue mage is lotsa fun too. and no, i don't think a blue mage is a waste of time, it's generally pretty fun to play.

as for my favourite blue magic, it's white wind i guess, just because it's often the best available healing spell, if a bit situational.
Title: Re: Blue Magic on Final Fantasy.
Post by: Bonesy on November 14, 2021, 09:14:41 pm
i'm partial to white wind or big guard
Title: Re: Blue Magic on Final Fantasy.
Post by: Blossom Knight on November 14, 2021, 09:14:52 pm
Sorry didn't know there was a warning that someone is interupting.

November 14, 2021, 09:22:14 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
in FF6, Strago plays the blue mage role with his 'lores'. there's plenty guides on that (like here (https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/snes/554041-final-fantasy-iii/faqs/35612), here (https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/snes/554041-final-fantasy-iii/faqs/31096) or here (https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Lore_(Final_Fantasy_VI))).
in FF8, Quistis learns blue magic for her limit breaks. ff8 is quirky, so it works a bit different here, and she learns blue magic by using items, not by fighting enemies. but the main principles still stand, and she still gets the role staples like big guard, aqua breath or w/e. here (https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Blue_Magic_(Final_Fantasy_VIII))'s a list.
in FF9, Quina takes the role. s/he learns blue magics by eating enemies, and here (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=665382782)'s a guide on that.
in FF10, Kimahri learns blue magics from the enemies by using his lancet skill, and can then use them for his overdrives. they're called Ronso rages in this game, and here (https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=682967292)'s a nice guide about this.
in FF10-2 you get back a dedicated blue mage role (gun mage) for all party members. so it's back to the classic approach, and works just like you'd remember from the earlier games. i.e. a gun mage gets hit with a learnable enemy skill, and she learns it for her skillset. here (https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/ps2/562386-final-fantasy-x-2/faqs/27313)'s a guide.

the later installments have a blue mage role too, but you didn't ask about these, so there ya go. but they're still using the role and experimenting with it. even in FFXIV, playing a blue mage is lotsa fun too. and no, i don't think a blue mage is a waste of time, it's generally pretty fun to play.

as for my favourite blue magic, it's white wind i guess, just because it's often the best available healing spell, if a bit situational.


Huh I'm talking main series so don't bring up side stories or spin offs and also Quina is male and you are to say he his him so don't say s/he Quina can't equip womens armor.
Title: Re: Blue Magic on Final Fantasy.
Post by: thr on November 14, 2021, 09:49:59 pm
Sorry didn't know there was a warning that someone is interupting.

November 14, 2021, 09:22:14 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)

Huh I'm talking main series so don't bring up side stories or spin offs and also Quina is male and you are to say he his him so don't say s/he Quina can't equip womens armor.
what spinoffs? o_O these are all in the main series mate.

and stop beating this dead horse that's Quina's gender. s/he is how it's being used ingame in the English version, so kindly direct your complaints to squeenix if it's something that doesn't sit well with you for whatever bizarre reason.
Title: Re: Blue Magic on Final Fantasy.
Post by: Blossom Knight on November 14, 2021, 10:14:32 pm
But aern't we going with that as close to the Japanese version now?

You know like we call Blizzard Blizzra and Blizzraga you know.

Anyway you keep how you think of Quina I'll keep in mine. I know how who equips what goes, trust me on this.

Example if you got a female only relic and you want to equip to Quina Quina can't wear it so that is proof that Quina is male and that's that. Trust me on GameFAQS I looked at Final Fantasy 9's armor guide on who equips what.
Title: Re: Blue Magic on Final Fantasy.
Post by: thr on November 14, 2021, 10:31:33 pm
whatever. it's just a poppet from a video game. none of their models have naughty bits anyway.
Title: Re: Blue Magic on Final Fantasy.
Post by: FAST6191 on November 15, 2021, 06:38:08 am
No move has ever stuck with me similar to how some summons, magic in general or even character specific abilities.

Some of the characters on the other hand. In which case if blue = enemy techniques then I am picking Gau from FF6.
Title: Re: Blue Magic on Final Fantasy.
Post by: Blossom Knight on November 15, 2021, 10:15:46 am
Why bring Gau up? In Final Fantasy 6 and on the Beast Plans having Strago in the party I have to use both Gau and Relm to help Strago learn more blue magic way earlyer in the first world.

learning ones in second world takes skill.
Title: Re: Blue Magic on Final Fantasy.
Post by: MysticLord on November 15, 2021, 11:15:02 am
Magic Rebalancing Rant:

Spoiler:
Blue magic is only useful because other magic schools are bad, other magic schools are unbalanced, and it has spells that are basically cheating (level n whatever spells).

Black magic can't hit all of the non-holy elements in many games, and by end game only like 4 spells are useful. White magic suffers from the same endgame spell utility issue, and usually only has one endgame offensive option. For both of them there's usually a Blue magic spell that covers what it does (Big/Mighty Guard for Protect/Shell and occasionally Haste). Time magic can be useful and is fairly well balanced, but it often lacks offensive option. Green magic can be useful (drain and especially osmose), but debuffs are rarely worth your time.

Even then most games are hold A to win so magic in general isn't that useful; not counting Ultima, Flare, and Holy.

What I would do:
  • Make Black magic hit all the elements for however many levels of elemental spells you have - aero, quake, water, maybe dark. Give more enemies and gear elemental affinities so you can get more use out of them and use them for healing in some cases. I really dislike having non-elemental damage spells other than comet or meteor, and maybe Demi if yo can block % damage or there's a % damage element.
  • Give White magic 3 levels of a holy element spell equivalent to Black magic's spells, and make most White magic buffs optional hit-alls.
  • Slightly improve Time magic spells, and make more enemies vulnerable to them.
  • Improve Green magic debuffs, make more enemies vulnerable to some and immune to others, improve the damage that drain can do.
  • Make Summons cover all of the effects of Time and the non-Blue color spell schools, but make them hit-alls and partially randomize their effects for mass de/buffers and mass dispel.
  • Sword magic should be all the offensive spell effects, but based on physical stats and targeting physical defense.

Once you have that, and you spread many of those spells among the enemies, then you should start thinking about what spells are useful for enemies to have and might be good for a Blue mage.

My idea of a Blue mage is that they should be able to do everything that another mage can do, but the more powerful their method of doing something the more conditional it should be. Tying White Wind to caster max HP can be a great heal-all, or a terrible heal-all; depends on your timing. A spell that deals as much damage as the caster has taken is another good example, as is damage based on your current HP, and those that do the same but for the target's HP.

A Blue mage IMO should be built around oddball spells that you could reasonably build a single character challenge around.

That said, I use Blue magic in FF7 because it's absurdly OP.

Barely used it in FF8 because it's hold A to win and why waste time with limit breaks?

In FF9, Quina is hard to use because she needs very careful damage dealing to eat/cook successfully, so naturally Square gave her a random damage weapon.

FF6 has a few things that are sort of Blue magic in that they use enemy skills: Dance, Rage, Sketch, Control, and of course Blue magic. It's pretty hard not to use it given how 1/3 of the party has something similar, but I wouldn't say they're terribly balanced.

FF5 Blue magic would be much better if most of the games passive skills were inherent for all classes once you learn them, especially Learning. I also don't know why on Earth there are multiple versions of Scan/Sense, and why they take up an entire skillset slot rather than a spell slot in another classes skillset. Most of the jobs should just have a skillset menu with things that are greyed out or not there until you learn them.

FFT requires monster skills and stats to be rebalanced because monster MA goes from 3 to like 99 and monster PA goes from 3 to 28; while the human MA and PA ranges are 2 to 28.

Blue mages seem to fill similar roles as Red mages: all-around generalists who can fill any niche. There isn't to my knowledge a purely magical generalist Blue mage in the series.
Title: Re: Blue Magic on Final Fantasy.
Post by: PowerPanda on November 15, 2021, 12:17:06 pm
On my 2nd playthrough of FF6, I used Strago in my main party, and he is an EXCELLENT Blue Mage. Aero, Aqualung, and Cleansweep cover elements that no other party members can use until close to the end game, Mighty Guard is OP, and GrandTrain and Quasar are both ultimate magic spells exclusive to him. Plus, the Gold Hairpin and Economizer work for his Lores too. In a game where any character can play any role, Strago is one of the more unique party members.

Aside from that, I never used Quistis or Kimhari. Quina was fun on a 2nd playthrough of FF9, but there was too much that went in to making them powerful. In FFT, Reis is actually set up as a Blue Mage in her stats, but she doesn't learn spells on contact. She is pretty darn strong if you take the time to train her.
Title: Re: Blue Magic on Final Fantasy.
Post by: Spooniest on November 15, 2021, 12:36:30 pm
When your passion for a fictional series of any kind is high enough for you to be rude to actual humans, it makes me want to close your thread. Just saying.
Title: Re: Blue Magic on Final Fantasy.
Post by: KingMike on November 15, 2021, 01:43:03 pm
Aside from that, I never used ... Kimhari.
I guess you mean for "Blue Magic". That game gives everyone a specific role, which feels nice at first to acknowledge the whole cast but then battle turns into a rotation chore. Call Wakka every time you see a flying enemy, etc.
Title: Re: Blue Magic on Final Fantasy.
Post by: thr on November 15, 2021, 04:36:25 pm
I guess you mean for "Blue Magic". That game gives everyone a specific role, which feels nice at first to acknowledge the whole cast but then battle turns into a rotation chore. Call Wakka every time you see a flying enemy, etc.
the game is divided into two distinct parts. the pre-airship part is a linear main story section, where you use distinct, specialised characters. the summoner and her guardians are all pretty unique characters (if a bit shallow or one-sided), and i feel their restricted roles kind of work here, resonate with the theme of pilgrimage and all, even if it does feel like a chore at times. but it plays well with the serious mood of this game, a pilgrimage is restrictive by definition, and shouldn't be too much fun. anyway, there's still some opportunity to switch roles, but it's tough and not worth it at this point with limited backtracking, scarce resources and all.

in the post-airship phase (which coincides with the big reveal turning things around into a more positive outcome), the world opens up, and with the characters free of their false obligations, the full access to sphere grid and the monster arena opens up as well to allow them to power level and freely respec. want to make Lulu into a fighting machine, or Tidus the best spellcaster in your team? no problem. with some research, and of course some grinding, you're basically drowning in ability points and spheres to customize your characters. you get 99 ability levels from don tonberry fight in the arena, and can grind fast for sphere drops from other bosses. this needs some monster hunting, and setting things up, but it's pretty easy if you know what to do. it's also kinda obligatory if you want to tackle the optional bosses.

Wakka can reliably hit flying enemies from the start thanks to his high accuracy stat. he starts with 25 points, while other characters get like 3-5. Tidus can sometimes hit flying enemies too, with his 10 accuracy, but it's not reliable. but pump everyone's accuracy and luck for a bit, and they all become equally good with hitting flyers.

it's really tough finding that sweet spot between having the whole party of jack-of-all-trades characters (FF5), and having fully specialised roles (FF9). at least in FFX we're able to go both ways with some effort.
Title: Re: Blue Magic on Final Fantasy.
Post by: Blossom Knight on November 15, 2021, 05:20:37 pm
Good point.
Title: Re: Blue Magic on Final Fantasy.
Post by: Chronosplit on November 17, 2021, 11:17:44 pm
I always use every job in some way in FF5.  Earlygame it's pretty useful before the water crystal in that it's the only one of two jobs that can use the best weapons available, and the spells mostly have general purpose use in all builds through the game (White Wind is great on a Monk's HP for example).  Doesn't hurt that the spells are pretty easy to learn in most cases in the game too so long as you weren't crazy about grinding, outside of the healing spells and Big/Mighty Guard.  Either way you can pretty well just level up the class until you learn !Blue and change jobs for learning until much later.

In 6 you just gotta use Lores, the rules for learning them are so relaxed that there's no reason not to.  They just come in as you play most of the time.

In 9 I'm not a fan of Quina in battle (forks are weird, some spells are neat but not nearly as fun as other games IMO), but it's the third-easiest way to learn them as it's basically the same as monster catching in other games.

Tactics Advance had some really cool spells attatched to play around with.  They're mostly built for non-mages for some reason, because only a couple of spells actually used the magic stat in a way that mattered.  So you can easily make a Paladin setup using Blue Magic for much better support options than White on the same build for example.  If you didn't have a beastmaster it was very hard learn them though, so I don't always use them or find reason to build one.  I really wish it wasn't locked into humans either, Blue Mage would sure be more useful to a Bangaa than a Bishop.
Title: Re: Blue Magic on Final Fantasy.
Post by: MysticLord on November 18, 2021, 07:54:53 pm
Tactics Advance had some really cool spells attatched to play around with.  They're mostly built for non-mages for some reason, because only a couple of spells actually used the magic stat in a way that mattered.  So you can easily make a Paladin setup using Blue Magic for much better support options than White on the same build for example.  If you didn't have a beastmaster it was very hard learn them though, so I don't always use them or find reason to build one.  I really wish it wasn't locked into humans either, Blue Mage would sure be more useful to a Bangaa than a Bishop.
In that case, shouldn't Beastmaster belong to the Bangaa too? Makes more sense there, since Nu Mou Beastmaster is useless against non-monsters. At least on a Bangaa you can treat it like a warrior class.
Title: Re: Blue Magic on Final Fantasy.
Post by: Chronosplit on November 18, 2021, 10:18:54 pm
In that case, shouldn't Beastmaster belong to the Bangaa too? Makes more sense there, since Nu Mou Beastmaster is useless against non-monsters. At least on a Bangaa you can treat it like a warrior class.
Good point.  Beastmaster was also weird on Nu Mu because it's physical based for some reason.  Technically you could just have Morpher be there from the get-go in job selection and have it be the Sage requirement, and no one would be the wiser.
Title: Re: Blue Magic on Final Fantasy.
Post by: MysticLord on November 20, 2021, 03:05:03 pm
Back on the Blue magic tack, my hot take is that Blue Magic should have weird niche spells and it should allow you to manipulate everything that can be manipulated in battle. If anything it does is also done by other classes, it should have it's own unique way to do those things. To find this out, I look at whatever values exist in battle that can be manipulated.

In FFT, this means:
* Stat damage/healing/absorb (PA, MA, SP, Brave, Faith, CT, Experience)
* HP/MP damage/healing/absorb
* Zodiac sign and birthday alteration
* Status effect infliction and cancellation
* Various status effect CTs
* Revival
* Gear break/theft
* Using consumable items
* Sprite, gender, monster flag, and job class alteration


Quina has a spell called Angel's Snack that uses a Remedy on each party member, and is a good example of this perspective.
Title: Re: Blue Magic on Final Fantasy.
Post by: FAST6191 on November 20, 2021, 09:44:30 pm
I can certainly see the potential there (and it is not like we have not seen a thousand hacks play with such systems for similar reasons) but how you would avoid it being overpowered whilst also making people want to play it vs having specialists, or everybody having similar powers by one means or another, I don't know.
Title: Re: Blue Magic on Final Fantasy.
Post by: MysticLord on November 20, 2021, 11:16:30 pm
I can certainly see the potential there (and it is not like we have not seen a thousand hacks play with such systems for similar reasons) but how you would avoid it being overpowered whilst also making people want to play it vs having specialists, or everybody having similar powers by one means or another, I don't know.
That's just an example from FFT, there would be a different set of things you could manipulate in other games.

To balance power levels (lol): power should be directly correlated with particular or conditional limits on utility.

Bear in mind that I like the ideas behind the Final Fantasy job classes, I just think they're poorly implemented. My ideas are alternative implementations. And to get to Blue mage I kind of need to cover all the other color mages, so please bear with my effort post. I'll use FFT as an example.

Feel free to skip if you're impatient.



Spoiler:
Example 1: Black mage should IMO get access to most elements except holy and oddball effects (gravity, poison), and should have several levels of each spell with varying power, MP costs, and if applicable casting speeds. Maybe range and AoE too. Since all of its skills are powered by MA, and they have long charge times, it needs MA most of all and isn't served by particularly high SP. Let's call it a Power Mage.

Logic: The Black mage as elementalist blaster lets you hit every weakness, which if your elemental affinities on enemies/gear are balanced should always give you a good offensive option. This also gives you an option for synergistic builds around elemental absorbing gear/classes/characters/etc, which gives your Black mage two roles: primary elemental damage dealer, secondary elemental healer.

Example 2: White mage is almost perfect, it just needs slightly improved buffs and holy elemental damage spells that work just like the Black mage. As its skills are more useful if they are put on your party before they close with the enemy, and many of its skills don't use MA that much (buff hit rates are MA + X, while healing/damage amount is MA * X), it can afford to give up some MA for SP. Call it a Speed Mage.

Example 3: Green mage (AKA Oracle/Mystic) needs better debuffs, and the AoE and hit rate of its skills should be improved. It's two damaging spells - Drain and Osmose - use MA for hit rate IIRC, or not at all. I think their damage should be MA * X instead of a (X * max HP / 100), so they are more useful for other mages. Either way all its skills are (MA + X) hit rate, and getting two turns to inflict a debuff is more useful than 1 or 2 more percentage points to inflict a debuff, so it should be a Speed Mage.

Example 4: Gray mage (AKA Time mage) is similiar to the White mage, but is more offensive support while White mage is defensive support. Its only damage options should be 2 or 3 Demi spells, and a very powerful and slow Meteor spell (which I want to be the only non-elemental damage spell in the game). I really want the Demi spells to do (MA * X) as a percentage of the unit's current HP, and to accept an element (Dark). While its role as support mage and its fluff seem like it should be a Speed Mage, I think it should be a Power Mage since I also think it should promote from Black mage and because I want all types of stat growths available at any level.

Example 5: Summoner should IMO be the generalist Power Mage: it's slow, it's powerful, it has a wide AoE, and it can do everything that all the other mages can do. That said, it should do so in a limited manner: massive MP costs, randomized (1...n) de/buff infliction/cancellation. Since it's slow and it's damage spells are (MA * X), it should be a Power Mage.

With all that in mind, and the "monsters must be able to use these skills too" consideration, here are my ideas for a FFT Blue Mage.

Stat Growths: Balanced PA, MA, and SP growths/multipliers. It's spells don't necessarily rely on MA, and it can use something to do when it hasn't learned many spells, so it should have decent PA and gear options so it can stab things until it grows a bit.

Gear Selection: Probably everything but heavy armors for the head and body slots. It could stand to have knives, swords, rods, staves, sticks, and crossbows.

Skills: Have a way to do everything that can be done in FFT, but in a way unique to you.

Skills List:
* White Wind: Heal up to 5 targets in a cross shaped AoE up to your current amount of HP.
* Explode: Kill yourself and damage everything but you in the AoE with your (max HP - current HP).
* Bad Breath: inflict 1 debuff at random from the list of all debuffs, AoE of 3.
* Reincarnate: turn a monster into another random monster; or switch a generic human's gender flag, change their job to a random one that they have available, randomize their equipped secondary skillset and skills from those available, and randomize their zodiac sign. There will be limits on this depending on the target, since only a certain number of sprites are available on each battlefield.
* Seagull's Snatch: Steal a random equipped item from the target.
* Sunder: Break a random equipped item on a target.
* Sacrifice: Kill yourself and revive all your allies on the battlefield at 1 HP.
* Forest Song: Remove a random debuff from all allies in a wide AoE.
* Dragon Soul: Add a random buff to all targets in a 5 square, cross shaped AoE.
* Soul Steal: Absorb a % of current HP and MP from a target adjacent to you.
* Transfer: Give a certain % of your current MP to target within 3 range.
* Blood Transfer: Damage your HP by a certain %, give half that amount in MP to a target within 3 range.
* Steal Essence: Reduce an adjacent target's PA, MA, or SP by 2, increase your own by that amount.
* Heart Feed: Reduce a target's Brave or Faith by 20%, increase your own by that amount.
* Warp Time: Damage yourself by a certain percentage of your HP, damage CT all targets in AoE by that same amount (10% HP damage = -10 CT).
* Blood Sin: Damage a target in 4 squares by the amount of your current Experience, and reduce your Experience to 0.
* Renewal: All allies in an AoE have the duration of their debuffs halved, and that of their buffs doubled.
* Curse: Single target has the duration of its debuffs doubled, and that of its buffs halved.
* Potion Spray: give all allies in a  5 range line a the lowest available potion.



Some of these are terrible, some are unbalanced (but that's easy to fix, just tweak the AoE, range, hit rate, damage, and so on), but the gist of the Blue Mage is that it is the wildcard generalist: it can do anything that any other class can do, just not as good as them.
Title: Re: Blue Magic on Final Fantasy.
Post by: PowerPanda on November 21, 2021, 12:44:48 am
For your suggested changes to the other mage classes, you should check out my patch "Final Fantasy Tactics: Emergence". I am pretty happy with how I was able to handle the White (healing), Black (attacking), Green (debuffs), Purple (buffs) Magicks, by focusing on specializing those classes. I turned the Squires into Red Mages (a little of everything), and the Orators into a class that could directly affect Faith/Brave/PA/MA/SP.

I REALLY tried to create a Blue Mage. Originally, that's how I redesigned Luso's special class. Ultimately though, the game system doesn't support it. In order to make an effective Blue Mage in the Tactics engine, you need to block off access to nearly all equipment. There is only one character who is set up for this, and that is Reis. She has to be set up like this, because she uses the Dragon Breath abilities. So, in lieu of a true Blue Mage, I was able to make Reis learn the Hydra's "Tri" abilities on contact.
Title: Re: Blue Magic on Final Fantasy.
Post by: MysticLord on November 21, 2021, 01:46:04 am
For your suggested changes to the other mage classes, you should check out my patch "Final Fantasy Tactics: Emergence". I am pretty happy with how I was able to handle the White (healing), Black (attacking), Green (debuffs), Purple (buffs) Magicks, by focusing on specializing those classes. I turned the Squires into Red Mages (a little of everything), and the Orators into a class that could directly affect Faith/Brave/PA/MA/SP.
I downloaded it a few months ago, just have such a lack of motivation and disgust at doing anything on a screen that I haven't got around to it.

I disagree with splitting healing from buffing. These roles are too minor on their own - even together they aren't always useful, you need an offensive option even if it is very conditional (holy element).

There's a point where the fluff makes more sense than role categorization. White mage has stuck around because it's just good, and good things tend to last.

My take is that Squires should be the Brave/Faith de/buffer and PA/MA/SP buffer as those skills are useful for everyone, and everyone starts as a Squire (usually, but also especially in my hypothetical mod).

Really no idea what to do with Orator since making a Blue Mage is pretty much impossible due to reasons below, the lack of formula customization, and my own ignorance of AI hardcoding. Other ideas for it include:
* Warlock, aka all the oddball target/caster/(current hp)/(max hp - current hp) skills plus some MP transfer and HP for MP skills.
* Inquisitor, faith drain swordskills that deal more damage the lower the targets faith and the higher yours.
* Roué, which is de/buff inflict/cancel class that uses only the hit_opposite_gender(MA + X) formula.

Only Roué is feasible, so I'll probably go with that.

I REALLY tried to create a Blue Mage. Originally, that's how I redesigned Luso's special class. Ultimately though, the game system doesn't support it. In order to make an effective Blue Mage in the Tactics engine, you need to block off access to nearly all equipment. There is only one character who is set up for this, and that is Reis. She has to be set up like this, because she uses the Dragon Breath abilities. So, in lieu of a true Blue Mage, I was able to make Reis learn the Hydra's "Tri" abilities on contact.
FFT Blue Mage requires you first rebalance or just redo monster stats and skills. Monster skills are designed for high PA and absurdly high (2 to 5 times higher than human) MA. You need to literally make a spreadsheet with graphs and charts so you can plot out the hit rates and damage at each level for your stats, for every skill, for every monster (or monster archetype, if you do that).

There isn't enough known about monster and human animations, specifically getting them to work in tandem on the same skill.

It's easier just to slightly modify existing monster skills to make them better, and replace them with other low lying fruit to make them more effective.



Back slightly on topic, my take on the class implementation is that some classes should be very set in stone, and others more experimental. The player should know if they want to heal without thinking too hard, they become a White Mage or a Chemist. If they want to blast things, become a Black Mage. If they want to debuff or steal health and mana, become a Green Mage.

The goal with this is to enable as many play-styles as possible - casual, power-gamer, experimenter, speedrunner, intermittent.

Blue mage fits into this as both a generalist (it can do anything, and works as both a warrior and mage) and an esotericist (it's spells power should IMO come from weird side effects as much as being just plain ole powerful). It should require thought to wring the most out of it, though you should also be able to grab a few core skills and power through it if you don't want to think too hard.
Title: Re: Blue Magic on Final Fantasy.
Post by: PowerPanda on November 22, 2021, 09:50:56 am
I want to keep this mostly on-topic, rather than just talking about FFT hacking, but I want to respond to one thing about the Healing/Buff split. In my hack, Faith is not used in Healing or Attack calculations. It's purely the Magick Stat. Faith is reserved specificially for giving/receiving statuses. The healing and buff classes are split so that an attack unit with high faith can still be a decent buffer/debuffer, even if their magic stat is low. I have also added an entirely new line of spells (Refresh) that restores MP. Since everything in my hack requires MP, even Martial Arts, a Healer definitely earns their spot.

Back on topic, are there any good Blue Mages outside of the FF series?
Title: Re: Blue Magic on Final Fantasy.
Post by: Chronosplit on November 22, 2021, 10:29:42 am
Back on topic, are there any good Blue Mages outside of the FF series?
Technically Kirby does it in the Quina fashion.  That's the only one I can think of.  Brave Fencer Musashi Does a similar thing to that.
Title: Re: Blue Magic on Final Fantasy.
Post by: thr on November 22, 2021, 11:37:06 am
Technically Kirby does it in the Quina fashion.  That's the only one I can think of.  Brave Fencer Musashi Does a similar thing to that.
Legend of Legaia does something like that too.
Title: Re: Blue Magic on Final Fantasy.
Post by: FAST6191 on November 22, 2021, 12:32:07 pm
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PowerCopying would seem to be a choice link at this point.
Title: Re: Blue Magic on Final Fantasy.
Post by: bl33p bl00p on November 22, 2021, 05:28:29 pm
IMO the blue mage is meant to embody the spirit of exploration of and love for the fantasy world. It encourages players to roam the world and check each corner to find and observe (and kill!?) all the flora and fauna. The reward is access to unique spells, which I feel should be varied and proportional to the effort put into finding them.

That said, the mechanisms in some FF games have been overly grindy or luck based as has already been pointed out in the thread. But then a lot of "lists" in FF games are meant to be either partially and randomly complete at the end of the game, depending on your luck and decisions, or comprehensively ticked off through checking and rechecking every corner of the game constantly tapping the B button for hours on end or following a guide full of spoilers. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I was surprised to find that I couldn't think of any true blue mages in other works. Mimics are here and there such as Kirby. I also thought of Rogue, and I know there are others. Also there are characters such as Radagast who embody the spirit of exploration and love of the natural world, but not with the end result of having a new spell in your pocket.

I say love of nature, but in FF you always end up slaughtering them since they are monsters lol. Maybe there should be friendly encounters that teach blue spells as well.
Title: Re: Blue Magic on Final Fantasy.
Post by: KingMike on November 23, 2021, 01:58:54 am
FF6 had at least one "friendly" encounter: Magic Pots which use healing items/spells on the party then escape.
Title: Re: Blue Magic on Final Fantasy.
Post by: MysticLord on November 23, 2021, 03:35:50 am
Monsters in Saga Frontier are sort of Blue mages, but not really because most of their skills are terrible and that's their only thing.