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Romhacking => Personal Projects => Topic started by: hmsong on October 22, 2021, 09:05:40 pm

Title: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on October 22, 2021, 09:05:40 pm
SEIKEN DENSETSU 3 (aka Trials of Mana) HACKS DISCUSSION

This is the thread for Seiken Densetsu 3 hacks for SNES.  Most of the links are patches by me, but I'm willing to put others' works, as long as they are compatible with my hacks (if they're not, then I'm willing to work with you to make them compatible).  I created this thread, because I've been getting similar questions from multiple people, and I felt that this is a great way share information.  Feel free to talk about anything SD3 related, including other people's works.  I'll be updating this particular post, whenever I feel that there's a change that I need to address to everyone.  Everything listed below is compatible with each other.

Better Monsters and Maps (https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/5300/), by hmsong

Better Starting Stats (https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/5304/), by hmsong

Black Rabite (https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/5308/), by hmsong

Class Balance + No Skill Counter (https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/5103/), by hmsong
- You have an option to either use No Skill Counter or not use it.

Gemstone Valley Dorian Bug Fix (https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/5276/), by hmsong
- This won't be necessary if you use either Better Monsters patch or praetarius5018's Bugfix patch.

Item Shop Changes (https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/5160/), by hmsong

Less Grinding (https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/5331/), by hmsong
- Compatible with Better Monsters patch and Class Balance patch.  However, apply them first, then apply the Less Grinding patch.

Useful Energy Ball (https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/5134/), by hmsong
- Compatible with Class Balance patch.  However, apply the Balance patches first, then apply the Useful Energy Ball patch.
- If you are using praetarius5018's bugfix patch, then I suggest you to NOT use this Useful Energy Ball patch, since his bugfix patch fixes the critical hit bug, and the Useful Energy Ball will overwrite that.

Evade Changes (https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/6332/), by hmsong
- Praetarius5018's bugfix patch is REQUIRED for this patch to have any effect.  Also, apply this AFTER applying the bugfix patch first.
- Compatible with Better Monsters patch and Less Grinding patch.  However, apply them first, then apply the Evade Changes patch.  If all are applied, the order goes:
  1. Bugfix.
  2. Better Monsters.
  3. Less Grinding.
  4. Evade Changes.

Bugfix Edition (https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/5158/), by praetarius5018
- Compatible with Seiken Densetsu 3 (J) and fan translation, but not with the official Trials of Mana (U).

Hues of Mana (https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/5161/), by Red Soul

Trials of Mana Sample Swap (https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/6328/), by _aitchFactor



Applying Notes (regarding hmsong's hacks):



I got multiple questions about the No Header ROM (and about the compatibility with the 3-player hack, in which case is NOT compatible due to it being for Headered ROM), so I'm gonna post a link to the SD3/ToM ROM site.  It has the pre-patched 3-player No Header ROM, so use that, if you desire so.

MOD EDIT: No ROM links. It's 2021, people know how to find SNES ROMs themselves. People interested in SNES hacks would be advised to learn about the very easy ways of applying patches and learning how to add/remove headers themselves.

My Edit: Whoops.  I didn't know you can't post links to ROM sites.  My bad.  Won't happen again.  In any case, just use google, "Seiken Densetsu 3 Rom 3 player", and you should be able to find the pre-patched 3-player No Header ROM in one of the sites.



I'd also like to share information about the game.  Here is some not-so-obvious information regarding the original game:

Here is some bug information regarding the original game:
Naturally, some of these were changed in my patches or praetarius5018's bugfix patch.  Read the attached documents of the hacks for details.



Feel free to post some strategies (more for post-hacks).  I'll update this section if the suggested strategy is practical.  I won't post the absurdly powerful game-breaking bugs though (ex: eliminating the cast by pausing the game).  Some of the strategies only work after certain hacks above are applied.  I'll start off:



If you have any suggestions or find errors, feel free to post them here.  My skills are limited (I only have extremely basic understandings of hacks), but I might be able to work out a solution on some things.

If you want to PM me, then you can do so here (http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=82786).  If the link doesn't work, then you can click my name, then click the name next to "Forum Account", then click "Send PM").
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: EvilJagaGenius on October 23, 2021, 11:00:54 am
Is there any combination of hacks you'd recommend using with praetarius5018's bugfix?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: hmsong on October 23, 2021, 05:50:15 pm
Is there any combination of hacks you'd recommend using with praetarius5018's bugfix?

Use the bugfix patch first, then apply my patches in the spelling order. (Better Monster, then Better Starting Stat, then Black Rabite, then Class Balance, and so on).  Of course, if you don't want to use certain patches, you can skip them over.

But I suggest you to not use the Useful Energy Ball patch if you're using praetarius5018's bugfix.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: Memorex on October 24, 2021, 09:00:55 am
Great work, will definitely check it out! Been a fan of this game since the translation-patch was releasded some 20 years ago.

What I really would like for this game some day is a hack that makes your character move faster in combat, similar to Secret of Mana,
but I assume that is beyond the scope of your project!

Also the general short range of your weapons was always a bit annoying. Always coinsidered Hawk the coolest character but his tiny knives
forced you to get really close to the enemies..
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: hmsong on October 24, 2021, 06:52:23 pm
What I really would like for this game some day is a hack that makes your character move faster in combat, similar to Secret of Mana,
but I assume that is beyond the scope of your project!

Also the general short range of your weapons was always a bit annoying. Always coinsidered Hawk the coolest character but his tiny knives
forced you to get really close to the enemies..

It's not that I don't want to do it... it's that I lack the ability to make the characters move faster in combat.  If I had the ability to create that, I would.  It would have been one of the first thing that I tackled.  There's a SD3 hack called Sin of Mana (which changes a LOT of things, including mechanics on how combat and money system works), and there, the creator somehow enabled the run function in combat.  I found it a bit too tedious, because without reading his documented guide (that comes with his hack), you'll not know why certain things act certain way.  Not very intuitive.

I was told that despite what the graphic looks like, everyone has the same melee combat range (although some characters like Lise may use different attack animation that has longer range).  Based on what little I tested, I think that's true.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: Red Soul on October 24, 2021, 11:53:08 pm
HMSong, if there is interest, feel free to add Hues of Mana to your listing. By the way, I haven't forgotten that change you asked me about a long time ago, I just haven't found a solution for it I'm really happy with.

October 25, 2021, 05:05:46 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Use the bugfix patch first, then apply my patches in the spelling order. (Better Monster, then Better Starting Stat, then Black Rabite, then Class Balance, and so on).  Of course, if you don't want to use certain patches, you can skip them over.

But I suggest you to not use the Useful Energy Ball patch if you're using praetarius5018's bugfix.

I had no idea your patches worked with the Praetarius' bugfix, that's great to know!
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: soul_knight on October 25, 2021, 01:33:47 am
Hello.  Just wanted to say hi.

You should put a link to this thread for all your patch introductions.  Almost nobody knows about this place's existence.  Thanks for giving me the credit for Magic Effectiveness bug.  Too bad you can't fix it though.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: hmsong on October 25, 2021, 08:31:40 am
HMSong, if there is interest, feel free to add Hues of Mana to your listing. By the way, I haven't forgotten that change you asked me about a long time ago, I just haven't found a solution for it I'm really happy with.

October 25, 2021, 05:05:46 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
I had no idea your patches worked with the Praetarius' bugfix, that's great to know!

Yes, I'd be happy to.  Awesome.  It's been a while, and I honestly forgot the changes I requested.  Sorry.  Whoops.

And yes, my patches work with praetarius's bugfix.  I specifically tried to make them work with his.  Having said that, I use his v1.2 (that I got a long time ago), instead of v1.4, because his v1.4 halves the melee attacks, and that's just too much of tradeoff.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: Greyfield on October 25, 2021, 01:51:43 pm
Hi hmsong,

Thanks for this!  This game has been on my short list for awhile, so this seems like a good opportunity to jump in.  From all the reviews I've read, I'm sure I won't be disappointed.

A few questions for you:

- Do you prefer the SD3 NCorlette or the official Trials of Mana translation better?

- Do you know if praetarius5018's bugfix patch is compatible with the official Trials of Mana version?

- Do you feel like your Less Grinding patch adequately compensates for the damage loss in praetarius5018's bugfix patch?  If not, would you be up for integrating a damage buff into your class balance patch or additional XP bonus into your grinding patch for users of the bugfix patch?  You could even advertise it as such, "... praetarius bugfix buff.ips"

Thanks again for taking the time to aggregate this information.  :)
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: hmsong on October 25, 2021, 07:04:29 pm
Hi hmsong,

Thanks for this!  This game has been on my short list for awhile, so this seems like a good opportunity to jump in.  From all the reviews I've read, I'm sure I won't be disappointed.

A few questions for you:

- Do you prefer the SD3 NCorlette or the official Trials of Mana translation better?

- Do you know if praetarius5018's bugfix patch is compatible with the official Trials of Mana version?

- Do you feel like your Less Grinding patch adequately compensates for the damage loss in praetarius5018's bugfix patch?  If not, would you be up for integrating a damage buff into your class balance patch or additional XP bonus into your grinding patch for users of the bugfix patch?  You could even advertise it as such, "... praetarius bugfix buff.ips"

Thanks again for taking the time to aggregate this information.  :)

1. It really depends on your preference.  The fan translation (we'll say SD3) is more "literal" translation, and ToM is more "spiritual" translation.  I got used to SD3 though.  The problem I have with ToM is that it's slower than SD3 (ex: the transition speed).  SD3 was already pretty slow, and ToM makes it worse.  So I would recommend to go for SD3.  But as stated in my first post, SD3 on Romhacking.net is for a headered rom, and all my patches (as well as most other patches) are for unheadered rom.  Find the unheadered rom (should be able to find it in google).

2. No, praetarius5018's bugfix is NOT compatible with ToM.

3. No, I don't think even Less Grinding is adequate enough to make up the difference of the damage reduction of the bugfix patch.  I haven't played the whole game with his recent patch, because it got too frustrating.  That's why I used his v1.2, which fixes many of the stuff (Agi, Crit, shield, etc), but not reduce the melee attacks.  And no, I'm not going to send you his v1.2, because praetarius5018 specifically did not want me to spread his old patch.  There used to be a site where you can download his old patch, but I heard it's down (either the site, or the download link).  I don't know.  I haven't checked.

If I had the ability to restore the original melee damage, I would... but to be honest, I don't have the skills to know which part of his bugfix patch deals with the damage reduction, so I can't even begin to revert it back.  So sad.  And as for increasing the EXP/GP drops for my Less Grinding (just for the bugfix users), I already pretty much got close to maxing out the EXP drops, so I don't think that's possible... at least for someone of my limited skills (I'll have to increase the EXP drop by at least 50%, and that's gonna be very difficult).  I have some rooms to increase the money drop (again, probably not by +50%), but not EXP.  Obviously, there's no point in just increasing the money drop.  I'll create a patch if I ever figure out the method though.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: Red Soul on October 25, 2021, 11:49:47 pm
Yes, I'd be happy to.  Awesome.  It's been a while, and I honestly forgot the changes I requested.  Sorry.  Whoops.

And yes, my patches work with praetarius's bugfix.  I specifically tried to make them work with his.  Having said that, I use his v1.2 (that I got a long time ago), instead of v1.4, because his v1.4 halves the melee attacks, and that's just too much of tradeoff.

No worries. It had to with Kevin's palette as a Warrior Monk in the "hair only" patch of mine, since the palette is exactly the same as the grapplers when you take the crazy hair out of the equation, but I haven't found a solution to this that doesn't involve either reverting his hair to the normal crazy colors or creating a different palette for Warrior Monk, and one solution would defeat the purpose of the other.

Ah, so your patches don't work with 1.4. It's a bit of a bummer to me (because Praetarius fixed the menu class branch for Kevin on that version on my request). It's a small thing to most, but for me it meant a lot to see that fixed.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: hmsong on October 26, 2021, 09:14:33 am
Ah, so your patches don't work with 1.4. It's a bit of a bummer to me (because Praetarius fixed the menu class branch for Kevin on that version on my request). It's a small thing to most, but for me it meant a lot to see that fixed.

No, you misunderstood.  All of my patches work fine with v1.4, as intended.  It's just that I choose to not use v1.4 when I play the game (despite it being compatible), because I don't want to deal with halved melee attacks.

On the other hand, v1.2 that I have doesn't half my melee attacks, so I use that instead.  Of course, there are numerous bonuses (and fixes) that v1.2 doesn't have, but I think the tradeoff is still worth it.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: praetarius5018 on October 26, 2021, 10:59:06 am
On the other hand, v1.2 that I have doesn't half my melee attacks, so I use that instead.  Of course, there are numerous bonuses (and fixes) that v1.2 doesn't have, but I think the tradeoff is still worth it.
I think this is slightly off-topic but I still want to defend my decision for that:
crits are a massive damage increase. It is not double (after def like normal games) but +50% before def so for weaker characters like Hawk this can mean that he randomly deals like 5x damage.
And since that increase also applies to enemies, endgame you can randomly eat 200+ extra damage over normal hits - which other people have complained about; I can't win here  ::)
If I ever feel like working on SD3 again I'll probably revert the -50% general damage and change the crit damage formula, no promises on that front.

2. No, praetarius5018's bugfix is NOT compatible with ToM.
Correct on that one; some of the fixes I had to do were in the compressed code and ToM changed some of the logic there; don't feel like dealing with that headache from scratch yet again...
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: Red Soul on October 26, 2021, 05:56:10 pm
No, you misunderstood.  All of my patches work fine with v1.4, as intended.  It's just that I choose to not use v1.4 when I play the game (despite it being compatible), because I don't want to deal with halved melee attacks.

On the other hand, v1.2 that I have doesn't half my melee attacks, so I use that instead.  Of course, there are numerous bonuses (and fixes) that v1.2 doesn't have, but I think the tradeoff is still worth it.

Oh I see, that's good to know. I personally didn't feel any real difference in combat even with 1.4. I prefer taking less damage from moves that would normally lead to wipes like the final tier werewolf enemies' specials for example.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: hmsong on October 26, 2021, 07:34:29 pm
@praetarius5018

I think this is slightly off-topic but I still want to defend my decision for that:
crits are a massive damage increase. It is not double (after def like normal games) but +50% before def so for weaker characters like Hawk this can mean that he randomly deals like 5x damage.
And since that increase also applies to enemies, endgame you can randomly eat 200+ extra damage over normal hits - which other people have complained about; I can't win here  ::)
If I ever feel like working on SD3 again I'll probably revert the -50% general damage and change the crit damage formula, no promises on that front.
Correct on that one; some of the fixes I had to do were in the compressed code and ToM changed some of the logic there; don't feel like dealing with that headache from scratch yet again...

Holy crap, I didn't think you would find this thread, after only few days of this thread's creation.  Wow.

Indeed, crits are quite dangerous by the middle~later parts of the game.  But the price that players have to pay for that is a bit... too much, at least for me.  Crit only comes up occasionally, but regular melee is used SO much, esp in the beginning.  And let's not forget that most bosses and tough enemies do full damage (because they use screen-freezing skills), whereas you only do half damage.  If it only affected Lv1 tech and crit, then I would actually prefer that (as Lv1 tech was too powerful for double hitters), but that's not the case here.

If you someday change the formula for crit (and consequently Lv1 tech), I hope you consider using Agi and Luck stats (instead of Atk*1.5, maybe Atk*1.25+Luck?  Atk*1.25+Agi+Luck?).  They're both rather underused stats (relatively), even after applying your patch.

Also, can I post your RHDN bugfix link in the first post? (in underline)



@Red Soul

Oh I see, that's good to know. I personally didn't feel any real difference in combat even with 1.4. I prefer taking less damage from moves that would normally lead to wipes like the final tier werewolf enemies' specials for example.

Yeah.  I had the same problem.  So except for the werewolves and Shadowzeros, I changed few things for all enemies with MT Lv3 techs, so that they'll do MT Lv2 techs (for damage).  Remember how Nightblades would sometime start with Lv3 SplitImage Slice, and consequently wipe out your whole party?  Now, they'll still use SplitImage Slice, but they'll only do Lv2 tech damage (which is still a lot).  I got that idea after seeing Darkshine Knight using Lv2 tech, then Lv3 tech, but they did the same damage.  It seems that many of those enemies had their own version of Lv2/3 techs, so I was able to modify them without affecting players'.

This only applies for MT techs, and not ST techs.  So Bill/Ben, and other normal enemies with ST Lv3 tech will still kill you if you're not prepared.  As long as it's not a total party kill out of nowhere, I'm good.

Unfortunately, werewolves didn't have their own version, so I couldn't reduce their Lv3 tech power.  And Shadowzeros... ugh.  Just avoid them, because they'll kill you all.  I put up a strategy against them though, assuming players use Class Balance and Item Shop patches.  Spoilers, as that'll make Shadowzeros a cakewalk.  But it's a reward, since in order to even use the strategy, you'd need to first kill Lv50 Shadowzeroes x2.  Good luck with that.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: Red Soul on October 26, 2021, 09:35:21 pm
@Red Soul

Yeah.  I had the same problem.  So except for the werewolves and Shadowzeros, I changed few things for all enemies with MT Lv3 techs, so that they'll do MT Lv2 techs (for damage).  Remember how Nightblades would sometime start with Lv3 SplitImage Slice, and consequently wipe out your whole party?  Now, they'll still use SplitImage Slice, but they'll only do Lv2 tech damage (which is still a lot).  I got that idea after seeing Darkshine Knight using Lv2 tech, then Lv3 tech, but they did the same damage.  It seems that many of those enemies had their own version of Lv2/3 techs, so I was able to modify them without affecting players'.

This only applies for MT techs, and not ST techs.  So Bill/Ben, and other normal enemies with ST Lv3 tech will still kill you if you're not prepared.  As long as it's not a total party kill out of nowhere, I'm good.

Unfortunately, werewolves didn't have their own version, so I couldn't reduce their Lv3 tech power.  And Shadowzeros... ugh.  Just avoid them, because they'll kill you all.  I put up a strategy against them though, assuming players use Class Balance and Item Shop patches.  Spoilers, as that'll make Shadowzeros a cakewalk.  But it's a reward, since in order to even use the strategy, you'd need to first kill Lv50 Shadowzeroes x2.  Good luck with that.

The only safe way I found to deal with Shadowzeroes is killing them quickly before they transform, haha.

So enemy werewolves don't have individual specials? I had a feeling that was the case when I was dealing with palettes because Lugar/Ludgar and Moonreading Tower werewolves all share palettes and as far as I can tell there's no way to match palettes correctly for both cases, so it's no surprises it's the same for specials.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: praetarius5018 on October 27, 2021, 05:48:56 am
If you someday change the formula for crit (and consequently Lv1 tech), I hope you consider using Agi and Luck stats (instead of Atk*1.5, maybe Atk*1.25+Luck?  Atk*1.25+Agi+Luck?).  They're both rather underused stats (relatively), even after applying your patch.
In a discussion for crit I arrived at Atk*1.125 + Luck*1.5
for endgame that should reach around 60-85 extra damage.
Considering a ~20% crit rate that is only a laughable ~15 average extra damage per hit.
If we went with Atk*1.25+luck the bonus damage alone would reach around a third of Angela's max health, so we'd still be in sudden death mode for the squishier half of the cast. Can't really go higher without adding a "crit defense" and that would just make Hawk even more broken than he already is.


Also, can I post your RHDN bugfix link in the first post? (in underline)
Don't see why not.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: Greyfield on October 27, 2021, 03:23:35 pm
Hmsong, thanks for all your replies above.  I'll try the SD3+Translation+Bugfixes+Patches and see how that goes!  If grinding becomes too much, I'll try ToM+Patches.

Praetarius5018, I empathize with you on the balancing side of thing.  I've been putting together a Final Fantasy NES minimalist rebalance patch for a long while now and I can't win even in my own headspace.  There are so many broken, imbalanced pieces that fixing one thing always seems to create problems somewhere else.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: hmsong on October 27, 2021, 08:02:03 pm
In a discussion for crit I arrived at Atk*1.125 + Luck*1.5
for endgame that should reach around 60-85 extra damage.
Considering a ~20% crit rate that is only a laughable ~15 average extra damage per hit.
If we went with Atk*1.25+luck the bonus damage alone would reach around a third of Angela's max health, so we'd still be in sudden death mode for the squishier half of the cast. Can't really go higher without adding a "crit defense" and that would just make Hawk even more broken than he already is.

Don't see why not.

"Atk*1.125 + Luck*1.5"?  Wouldn't that just result in even bigger damage output?  I know what you intend is, "(Atk*1.125) + (Luck*1.5)", as that's how real math works when using multiplication, but because of how old games work, I have a feeling it'll end up as, "Atk*1.125 + Luck * 1.5".  Or maybe I'm just totally wrong there.  In any case, *1.5 seems a bit weird, since Luck maxes out at 22, with minimum at 15 (which is additional +10 points by the end of the game from min to max (22-15 * 1.5), which is nothing).  I prefer Luck*2 (or Luck+Luck), or even Luck*3, but that's just me.  Perhaps I'm underestimating *1.125.  Wait, given how frequent critical hits are, and given that the final attack power is at minimum 250 (so 250*1.125 + (20*1.5) = 311.25), that's easily over +60 damage points each.  That's actually a lot more powerful than I thought.

Hawk may be broken, but as you said in the other thread, Kevin's even more broken, due to his werewolf form having stackable +1/7 attack power boost.  I think Kevin has the lowest Luck (same as Duran), so maybe that'll balance things out a bit.

I'll put the link above.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: Chicken Knife on October 27, 2021, 10:02:57 pm
The activity on this thread just so happened to get me playing a bit of Trials of Mana SFC again. I'm giving Red Soul's really neat recolor hack a spin, along with the latest version of the bug fix hack.

I have one thought I wanted to just get out there with criticals: regardless of the damage calculation, we really need some kind of differentiating sound for them, as seems to be standard in most games with critical hits. One of the reasons it's so easy to die from enemy criticals in SD3 is that you never get that audible que, and there is often too much going on on the screen visually to react to the higher damage number popping up. Obviously this would take some impressive hacking to cause criticals to trigger a different, more aggressive hit sound.

October 27, 2021, 10:18:26 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Edit:

Half the sounds in battle get skipped simply because there is too much going on for the audio sampling to follow. So this idea for a different crit sound may not ultimate be all that effective.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: BLESSED on October 28, 2021, 04:20:38 am
Does the v1.2 bugfix patch include the critical hit fix? Reading the patch notes it doesn't mention a fix for it. So, can I use useful energy ball along with v1.2 bugfix?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: praetarius5018 on October 28, 2021, 05:22:41 am
"Atk*1.125 + Luck*1.5"?  Wouldn't that just result in even bigger damage output?  I know what you intend is, "(Atk*1.125) + (Luck*1.5)", as that's how real math works when using multiplication, but because of how old games work, I have a feeling it'll end up as, "Atk*1.125 + Luck * 1.5".
By the rules of math I know "Atk*1.125 + Luck*1.5" and "(Atk*1.125) + (Luck*1.5)" are the exact same thing, so no idea what you're thinking of there.

As for Hawk&Kevin, technically we could give only them -25% final damage but then we'd be far away from a bug fix and deep in rebalance territory.


I have one thought I wanted to just get out there with criticals: regardless of the damage calculation, we really need some kind of differentiating sound for them
Doesn't the beeping from (almost) dieing count? :P
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: Vanya on October 28, 2021, 06:48:05 am
By the rules of math I know "Atk*1.125 + Luck*1.5" and "(Atk*1.125) + (Luck*1.5)" are the exact same thing, so no idea what you're thinking of there.

Math in assembly code is handles very differently than in normal written out equations.
It doesn't quite work that way in most higher programming languages either.

In the case of assembly you have to specify each step of the equation in the order you want it done.
So it would look something like:

Atk * 1.125 = x;
Luck * 1.5 = y;
x + y = z;

For contrast in C++, "Atk * 1.125 + Luck * 1.5" would processed from left to right executing each pair of statements in the order they appear.
So it would end up like this:

Atk * 1.125 = x;
x + Luck = y;
y * 1.5 = z;

That will give you a very different result than if you were to use the parenthesis.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: hmsong on October 28, 2021, 08:28:23 am
By the rules of math I know "Atk*1.125 + Luck*1.5" and "(Atk*1.125) + (Luck*1.5)" are the exact same thing, so no idea what you're thinking of there.

I know that's how real math works, but I meant to say, I have a feeling that the game would interpret it as (((Atk*1.125) + Luck) *1.5), just as Vanya said.  Although mine was based on gut feeling, rather than Vanya's actual programming knowledge.  I think *2 is better than *1.5, to make Luck more meaningful (crit, I'm not too worried about, but Lv1 tech is used more often).  In any case, I'm sure you know what you're doing.  Well, I leave it in your hands.

As for Hawk&Kevin, technically we could give only them -25% final damage but then we'd be far away from a bug fix and deep in rebalance territory.

True that.  Some balancing may be necessary (like what you're doing with critical hit), but there's a line, and reducing Hawk/Kevin's final damage by 25% may be too much into rebalancing territory (although I would absolutely love that).  I would like to request you to do numerous other things, like reducing Kevin's +1/7 werewolf bonus to +1/10 (I think that's more reasonable bonus) and reducing saber elemental weakness bonus of +50% to +20%, but again, that may be crossing the line into rebalance than bugfix.

On the other hand, I know you made the critical chance into 2+Luck, but given how frequent the critical hits are, could you reduce it to 0+Luck instead?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: praetarius5018 on October 28, 2021, 11:00:30 am
I know that's how real math works, but I meant to say, I have a feeling that the game would interpret it as (((Atk*1.125) + Luck) *1.5), just as Vanya said.  Although mine was based on gut feeling, rather than Vanya's actual programming knowledge.  In any case, I'm sure you know what you're doing.  I leave that in your capable hands.
Ok, now I get what you meant.
But please consider that not everyone knows asm; so for the sake of allowing them to follow the train of thought as well, we should either keep it to normal math or at least mark it as low level code talk or something.


True that.  Some balancing may be necessary (like what you're doing with critical hit), but there's a line, and reducing Hawk/Kevin's final damage by 25% may be too much into rebalancing territory (although I would absolutely love that).
Kevin is OP either way, in wolf form without extra nerf he is basically Duran at double speed.
Whether Hawk or Duran is stronger just depends on target def or presence of power up buff; and nerfing Hawk a little bit would ease my mind with giving a bit more oomph to the luck stat on a crit.
Maybe even dare scale it relative to the equipped weapon:
just flat +(luck * weaponfactor)/3 (monster have no weapon but could probably substitute a pseudo weaponfactor by level/4 or so)
ok that is probably a bit too much


I would request you to simply reduce Kevin's +1/7 werewolf bonus to +1/10 (I think that's more reasonable bonus), but that may be crossing the line of bugfix.
Let's be honest, I already crossed that line when I enabled crits.
Random chance to deal Lv1 tech damage is a massive balance change; not that it helps with how OP melee already was (relatively to magic casting being effectively suicide)
crit chance =50% from energy ball breaks the game as well... should probably interpret it as x1.5 (+50%) instead of set to 50%


On the other hand, I know you made the critical chance into 2+Luck, but given how frequent the critical hits are, could you reduce it to 0+Luck instead?
+0 would make the beginning of the game even slower than it already is; 2% crit chance for Duran&Kevin basically means they always deal vanilla damage.


what are the opinions on spell damage by scaled by the target's "rank" (class change for player) instead of the user's
rank0 (L0-19) / base class = 100%
rank1 (L20-39) / 1st class = 160%
rank2 (L40+) / 2nd class = 190%
imo that is backwards but I've never seen it called out as a bug


dunno, at this point I should probably give it a real name instead of just "bug fix" and go a step further...
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: hmsong on October 28, 2021, 07:49:35 pm
Whether Hawk or Duran is stronger just depends on target def or presence of power up buff; and nerfing Hawk a little bit would ease my mind with giving a bit more oomph to the luck stat on a crit.
Maybe even dare scale it relative to the equipped weapon:
just flat +(luck * weaponfactor)/3 (monster have no weapon but could probably substitute a pseudo weaponfactor by level/4 or so)
ok that is probably a bit too much

Yeah, I think that's a little too much too.

Let's be honest, I already crossed that line when I enabled crits.
Random chance to deal Lv1 tech damage is a massive balance change; not that it helps with how OP melee already was (relatively to magic casting being effectively suicide)
crit chance =50% from energy ball breaks the game as well... should probably interpret it as x1.5 (+50%) instead of set to 50%

Hmm.  Instead of increasing critical hit rate, I would prefer if you increase the critical damage (to the original +50%).  That way, Energy Ball won't be as overpowered, but not useless either.

That reminds me.  I know you said that Speed Up changes ACC to +10/-15, but could you perhaps raise that slightly?  Also, the same for EVA (instead of +x%, add a fixed EVA point).  I'm asking you this, because Speed Up is still pretty useless, based on my fights against Tzenker.  I used Kevin, and I never raised speed stat (I was at Lv10), and I still felt that I missed Tzenker no more than I typically do.  The same with when that mole boss, when he used Speed Down on me.

+0 would make the beginning of the game even slower than it already is; 2% crit chance for Duran&Kevin basically means they always deal vanilla damage.

I thought the speed in the beginning is fine.  Even if it's true that it's slower, the problem is that enemies have high chance of doing critical hit.  I think that's the bigger issue in the beginning, esp since you don't have many healing option.  But that's just me.

what are the opinions on spell damage by scaled by the target's "rank" (class change for player) instead of the user's
rank0 (L0-19) / base class = 100%
rank1 (L20-39) / 1st class = 160%
rank2 (L40+) / 2nd class = 190%
imo that is backwards but I've never seen it called out as a bug

Sorry, I didn't quite understand you.  I know that spells damage output changes, based on how many class ups you had, but you want to change it, so that enemies' levels will affect the boost, instead of player's class?

If so, then I... disagree.  Some people who never played this game don't even know the existence of 2nd class up.  I've seen other people gameplay, and they just beat the game as 1st class up, because they don't know the existence of 2nd class up (based on their commentaries).  Maybe some people will choose to not get 2nd class up.  But if enemies' power scale jumps, then those players are pretty much doomed.

dunno, at this point I should probably give it a real name instead of just "bug fix" and go a step further...

The name could be, "mechanic fix", but I think "bug fix" gets the attention of people.  That name has a lot of hook.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: mkwong98 on October 28, 2021, 11:07:47 pm
Is it impossible to apply the crit bonus after defense? I'm interested to see the steps in the calculation.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: EvilJagaGenius on October 28, 2021, 11:15:36 pm
Maybe it would be a good idea to add the three-player hack to the list as well.  Does it work with the other patches too?  https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/179/
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: Red Soul on October 29, 2021, 05:12:31 am
Maybe it would be a good idea to add the three-player hack to the list as well.  Does it work with the other patches too?  https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/179/
It does work, but it requires some "header dancing"
The 3-player patch and the translation patch require headers, while most other patches (correctly) don't.

There's also the ghost ship caveat to take into account.

October 29, 2021, 05:18:13 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
@HMSong

Personally, I think magic is too weak and slow to have any real merit. It should cast almost instantly to be able to even remotely keep up with melee, DPS wise, not to mention mounting mana costs with every class up (speaking strictly of offensive magic here).

Frankly, it's more than a little absurd that Wanderer Hawk can be a better caster than Angela in practice (decent damage via Poison Bubble + virtually infinite MP) and Ninja Master Hawk is, for all intents and purposes, a better caster-debuffer than Rune Master Angela (cheap MT Jutsus with debuffs).

I'm not saying I have a good idea on how to balance it, but it is grossly underpowered compared to melee, that much is clear.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: soul_knight on October 29, 2021, 05:59:42 am
@hmsong

Can you make it so that Dragon Shield can be gotten from ??? Seed, after the 2nd class up?  The bugfix patch makes Dragon Shield awesome, but you can't even get it, unless a very specific situation occurs in a limited time frame.  Or make it only available to Duran LL.  I mean, Duran LD has 2 shields.  So why shouldn't Duran's LL have 2 shields?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: praetarius5018 on October 29, 2021, 06:00:13 am
Is it impossible to apply the crit bonus after defense? I'm interested to see the steps in the calculation.
In all calculations subtracting def is the last step.

I think having it as a % increase after def would just make Duran and Kevin better and nerf everyone else; like Angela and Charlie can barely get through endgame mob defense (I think the highest has 245) with their best weapon and maxed STR (can they even reach 250?), so a crit for them would give maybe 2 points of extra damage without using power up. And that despite those 2 having some of the highest luck stats.


Yeah, I think that's a little too much too.
Hawk, 270 atk, 15x weapon, 22 luck: 270+15x22/3=270+110=380
before: 270x1.5=405
Duran, 350 atk, 15x weapon, 18 luck: 350+15x18/3=350+90=440
before: 350x1.5=525
lv50 monster, lets say 400 atk dark lord with saber (don't know the real value, just an estimate):
400+12x18/3=400+72=472
before:400x1.5=600

wasn't as bad as I thought and would give luck very slightly more value, +5 damage on a crit when STR gives +15 all the time.


Hmm.  Instead of increasing critical hit rate, I would prefer if you increase the critical damage (to the original +50%).  That way, Energy Ball won't be as overpowered, but not useless either.
+25% -> +50% on 20% crit rate would be like 5% more average damage, doesn't sound worth casting to me.

keeping +25% damage and upping crit rate from 20% to 30% is more or less the same

remember that power up is like +50% effective damage and can be bought in the black market while energy ball is the only spell that death hand gets. we could give energy ball both effects and it would still be weaker than power up.


That reminds me.  I know you said that Speed Up changes ACC to +10/-15, but could you perhaps raise that slightly?  Also, the same for EVA (instead of +x%, add a fixed EVA point).  I'm asking you this, because Speed Up is still pretty useless, based on my fights against Tzenker.  I used Kevin, and I never raised speed stat (I was at Lv10), and I still felt that I missed Tzenker no more than I typically do.  The same with when that mole boss, when he used Speed Down on me.
I think the issue with Tzenker is that she has actually 0 evade stat but you miss her based on position/flying state.


I thought the speed in the beginning is fine.  Even if it's true that it's slower, the problem is that enemies have high chance of doing critical hit.  I think that's the bigger issue in the beginning, esp since you don't have many healing option.  But that's just me.
"high chance" is like 5% there...


Sorry, I didn't quite understand you.  I know that spells damage output changes, based on how many class ups you had, but you want to change it, so that enemies' levels will affect the boost, instead of player's class?
Currently it checks for the target's class rank; monster are treated as class 1 at lv20-39 or class 2 at lv40+.
That means that it is currently detrimental for the player to class change a second time.
First need to grind for a rare drop (??? seed) on a handful of specific enemies, then you need to pray again to get the right 1/3 item from it and all you get immediatly is TAKING MORE DAMAGE - thanks game.


Personally, I think magic is too weak and slow to have any real merit. It should cast almost instantly to be able to even remotely keep up with melee, DPS wise, not to mention mounting mana costs with every class up (speaking strictly of offensive magic here).
Given the mess that fixing the casttime bug caused last time I should probably just make all spells cast instantly instead here; items and boss spells would still have priority though.
Would it seem overpowered if you can instantly stone cloud some mob to death? Yes but that requires levels that are already past what you need to finish the game comfortably with just the buffs you can buy; and you can already do the same by opening the menu with a second character once - so really, this is just a QOL change...
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: mkwong98 on October 29, 2021, 01:06:19 pm
Instead of crit increasing the attack, how about making crit reduce/ignore def?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: praetarius5018 on October 29, 2021, 01:10:34 pm
Instead of crit increasing the attack, how about making crit reduce/ignore def?
The basic formula is at its core ATK - DEF, so whether we increase atk by 50 or lower def by 50 is the same.

Full ignore def would be insane; endgame monster have 200-245 def, so you'd get that much extra def.
Not to be talking about the player taking up to 300 extra damage that way...
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: hmsong on October 29, 2021, 07:33:53 pm
@praetarius5018

wasn't as bad as I thought and would give luck very slightly more value, +5 damage on a crit when STR gives +15 all the time.

Well, everyone knew that Str and Vit are 2 most important values in the game.  The idea is to reduce the gap between Str and Luck, but I don't think anyone expects Luck to be just as valuable as Str.

remember that power up is like +50% effective damage and can be bought in the black market while energy ball is the only spell that death hand gets. we could give energy ball both effects and it would still be weaker than power up.

Well, isn't that why you reduced Power Up from +33% to +20%?  That way, it's nowhere near as devastatingly powerful?  What I do know is that if the critical hit rate is upped to 50%, it'd be insane.  As you said, giving the damage boost to critical damage (aka +50%) and increasing the critical hit rate of fixed +10 would be good enough.  Maybe +15 (22 + 15 = 37% critical rate, which is quite powerful).  Not sure.

I did create a hack that changes the black market item, so that Power Up isn't available as early.  And there's significantly more merit than vanilla in that hack, so I think people will use it (and therefore deny themselves the early Power Up).

I think the issue with Tzenker is that she has actually 0 evade stat but you miss her based on position/flying state.

I'm saying Tzenker before Speed Up and Tzenker after Speed Up feels no different, in terms of me missing attacks.  But now that I know that she has 0 Eva, I know why (0 * 1.20 = 0).  I don't know how that's possible, since she has Lv10 Lise's stats, right? (meaning she should have ~8 Agi stat)  In any case, Speed Up/Down affecting the Eva stat by fixed amount would bring more merit to Speed Up/Down.

"high chance" is like 5% there...

Well, yeah.  But that additional +2% of critical hit for everyone is just... I don't think people will mind not seeing critical hit in the beginning.  They're gonna see plenty in the later parts of the game.

Currently it checks for the target's class rank; monster are treated as class 1 at lv20-39 or class 2 at lv40+.
That means that it is currently detrimental for the player to class change a second time.
First need to grind for a rare drop (??? seed) on a handful of specific enemies, then you need to pray again to get the right 1/3 item from it and all you get immediatly is TAKING MORE DAMAGE - thanks game.

Well, the damage output suddenly increasing at Lv40 is probably worse.  That is, unless the damage increase affects the players too.  Personally, I think leaving that particular mechanic as vanilla way is adequate.  Far from perfect, but adequate.

Given the mess that fixing the casttime bug caused last time I should probably just make all spells cast instantly instead here; items and boss spells would still have priority though.
Would it seem overpowered if you can instantly stone cloud some mob to death? Yes but that requires levels that are already past what you need to finish the game comfortably with just the buffs you can buy; and you can already do the same by opening the menu with a second character once - so really, this is just a QOL change...

I think all spells being insta-cast is a bit too much.  I much prefer if you fix the cast bug.  Sure, spells are not as useful as melee, but if we're talking about Angela, she would do more damage with magic than her own melee, and without putting herself in harm's way (as much).  You can't be comparing Angela's magic vs Kevin's melee (or something similar).  You have to compare Angela's magic vs Angela's melee.

Besides, my Class Balance patch neutralizes some of that, since I increased the spell damage (some by a lot), and decreased the cast time.



@Red Soul

Frankly, it's more than a little absurd that Wanderer Hawk can be a better caster than Angela in practice (decent damage via Poison Bubble + virtually infinite MP) and Ninja Master Hawk is, for all intents and purposes, a better caster-debuffer than Rune Master Angela (cheap MT Jutsus with debuffs).

That's why I got rid of Poison Bubble from LL Hawk (Wanderer), and gave him Leaf Saber instead (same as his enemy counterpart -- Porobin Leader).  I also gave Poison Bubble to DL Angela, to make her more useful.  But to be honest, by the time you get the 2nd class up, Magic Walnut x99 will be extremely cheap (less than 8000 Lucre).  Poison Bubble (aka tree element, which gives the MP gaining effect) is no more useful than other spells with the same strength.  Actually, tree-element is 2nd most useless element (worst being obviously dark), because nothing is weak against tree, while plenty resist it, while MP regaining ability is negligible by that point.

I also made it so that Jutsus use Agi for damage, instead of Int, to make them different from Angela.  It's not perfect, but it's an adequate solution, I think.  I hope.

And let's not forget.  All the girls (Angela, Carlie, Lise) get cast time bonus when they get 2nd class change.  That's why vanilla Carlie's 2nd class is able to cast insta Heal Light (I made it so that Heal Light cast time is not instant, although my motive was to make the healing items not obsolete).



@soul_knight

Can you make it so that Dragon Shield can be gotten from ??? Seed, after the 2nd class up?  The bugfix patch makes Dragon Shield awesome, but you can't even get it, unless a very specific situation occurs in a limited time frame.  Or make it only available to Duran LL.  I mean, Duran LD has 2 shields.  So why shouldn't Duran's LL have 2 shields?

That's a good idea, but I'm not sure if I can make it happen.  I'll look into it, but don't get your hopes up.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: mkwong98 on October 29, 2021, 09:28:00 pm
The basic formula is at its core ATK - DEF, so whether we increase atk by 50 or lower def by 50 is the same.

Full ignore def would be insane; endgame monster have 200-245 def, so you'd get that much extra def.
Not to be talking about the player taking up to 300 extra damage that way...

It is not the same if it is 50% as you stated earlier, not fixed 50 points.
Come to think of it, may be adding a fixed value to the final damage actually works better?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: soul_knight on October 29, 2021, 09:35:55 pm
For everyone, bugfix patch has been updated!  Everyone, try it out!

I'm gonna try it tomorrow when I go home.  Thanks, praetarius5018!
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: Red Soul on October 29, 2021, 11:43:49 pm
Awesome, I'll definitely take a good look at it.

Edit: Love the changes there. I took a gander at the changes and they are all great; even as a Kevin main I recognize he's quite strong, so balancing things out is nice. I'm sure he'll remain very strong and viable, but more in line with the rest of the cast.

HMSong, I assume your patches will work okay with this one? I refer mostly to the skill redistribution patch you made.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: praetarius5018 on October 30, 2021, 05:59:47 am
Well, isn't that why you reduced Power Up from +33% to +20%?  That way, it's nowhere near as devastatingly powerful?
That and bringing it more in line with magic damage increase since that is only +25%; relatively speaking enemy p.def is higher than their m.def so I "include" that difference in damage gain in the corresponding def debuff.


I'm saying Tzenker before Speed Up and Tzenker after Speed Up feels no different, in terms of me missing attacks.  But now that I know that she has 0 Eva, I know why (0 * 1.20 = 0).  I don't know how that's possible, since she has Lv10 Lise's stats, right? (meaning she should have ~8 Agi stat)  In any case, Speed Up/Down affecting the Eva stat by fixed amount would bring more merit to Speed Up/Down.
It works the same way as all other stats; you have base stats based on Lise's (Koren uses Angela's and Heath uses Charlie's, all other -> Lise) stat cap for that level (Lv1-19 base class, 20-39 light class, 40+ L/L class) then apply a percentage modifier to the final value that varies by creature type. And Tzenker has -100% on evade.
Honestly I believe the evade modifiers were decided while drunk; most of them make little logical sense.
Examples:
ninja -98%
ninja master +8%
nightblade -57% (yes, the master of assassination evades worse than any of the mages)
magician -12%
wizard +5% (3rd highest out of all non-bosses, seriously)
high wizard -27%
specter +100%
ghost -44% (the evolved form of a typically incorporal creature, ladies and gentlemen)

bill/ben +0%
koren +15%
heath +70%(!!)
dangaard -100% (flying creature during high speed chase? free hits ofc!)


Well, yeah.  But that additional +2% of critical hit for everyone is just... I don't think people will mind not seeing critical hit in the beginning.  They're gonna see plenty in the later parts of the game.
I mean you could implement a kind of crit defense, something like:
crit rate = 5 + attacker.luck - (target.luck/2)
with that Hawk would go from about 10% to 17% over the course of the game or Duran 6% to 12%


Well, the damage output suddenly increasing at Lv40 is probably worse.  That is, unless the damage increase affects the players too.  Personally, I think leaving that particular mechanic as vanilla way is adequate.  Far from perfect, but adequate.
It counts for both sides, and also for heal light because why not.

In the patch I made it so that it uses the caster's level and ignores the class rank; so even if you don't class change you have +90% at Lv40.
And lets be fair, with enabled crits melee already got a bonus, so magic getting a little something here as well isn't necessarily wrong.


I think all spells being insta-cast is a bit too much.  I much prefer if you fix the cast bug.  Sure, spells are not as useful as melee, but if we're talking about Angela, she would do more damage with magic than her own melee, and without putting herself in harm's way (as much). You can't be comparing Angela's magic vs Kevin's melee (or something similar).  You have to compare Angela's magic vs Angela's melee.
No, I MUST compare Angela's magic to Kevin's melee, because both of them are choices for party members.
1) it is NOT a dps increase since you could already do the same by alternating casting of 2 party members since the cast time still ticks down while you select the spell of the other caster and during the spell animations
2) you still have to deal with mp costs, counter attacks and long spell animations

Also I won't fix the cast time, not again, once having to deal with that mess is enough; if you want to, be my guest, but I won't touch it.


And let's not forget.  All the girls (Angela, Carlie, Lise) get cast time bonus when they get 2nd class change.
Sorry, but this info is false or at least incomplete.
EVERYONE gets a drop of 60 ticks to their cast time per class change, not only the girls or only on 2nd class change.


That's a good idea, but I'm not sure if I can make it happen.  I'll look into it, but don't get your hopes up.
If you find out where the seeds get their item lists from, I'd like that info as well, please.


It is not the same if it is 50% as you stated earlier, not fixed 50 points.
Come to think of it, may be adding a fixed value to the final damage actually works better?
I went with fixed 50 as an example for how much a given value of luck could ignore; I was thinking not a fixed percentage but a value that scales by the luck stat. Problem is then that it doesn't matter if we reduce def or increase atk, since the result there is the same.

Ignoring fix 50% would again help Hawk and Kevin way too much since they hit twice as often for the flat 100-120 extra damage at the end.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: hmsong on October 30, 2021, 05:00:48 pm
@Red Soul

Based on what I can tell, all of my patches are still compatible with the bugfix v1.5, as far as code compatibility is concerned.  Whew.  However, the new bugfix hack probably ignores any cast time edits that I did, meaning all casts are now super fast.  I haven't tested how well the melee works, so if anyone tests this patch (I will do so later), any empirical observation and posting how things work (and the flaws/bugs) would be great.



@praetarius5018

Honestly I believe the evade modifiers were decided while drunk; most of them make little logical sense.
Examples:
ninja -98%
ninja master +8%
nightblade -57% (yes, the master of assassination evades worse than any of the mages)
magician -12%
wizard +5% (3rd highest out of all non-bosses, seriously)
high wizard -27%
specter +100%
ghost -44% (the evolved form of a typically incorporal creature, ladies and gentlemen)

bill/ben +0%
koren +15%
heath +70%(!!)
dangaard -100% (flying creature during high speed chase? free hits ofc!)

Wtf!  Lol!  Wow.  I did notice that Specter and Heath have high evade, but I didn't know why.  That is incredible.

In the patch I made it so that it uses the caster's level and ignores the class rank; so even if you don't class change you have +90% at Lv40.
And lets be fair, with enabled crits melee already got a bonus, so magic getting a little something here as well isn't necessarily wrong.

Ah.  Then I guess that's more fair.  So to be clear, at Lv40 (for player), all screen-freezing skills (including Heal Light) will have increased power?  Does that include Lv2/3 techs?  Are there any other skills that gain power?

Sorry, but this info is false or at least incomplete.
EVERYONE gets a drop of 60 ticks to their cast time per class change, not only the girls or only on 2nd class change.

Oh, I didn't know that.  I said what I said based on empirical observation, not through code searching.

If you find out where the seeds get their item lists from, I'd like that info as well, please.

Yikes.  If you can't find it, then it's very unlikely I'll be able to find it.  But I'll look around.  Maybe I'll get lucky.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: Red Soul on October 30, 2021, 05:13:17 pm
@Red Soul

Based on what I can tell, all of my patches are still compatible with the bugfix v1.5, as far as code compatibility is concerned.  Whew.  However, the new bugfix hack probably ignores any cast time edits that I did, meaning all casts are now super fast.  I haven't tested how well the melee works, so if anyone tests this patch (I will do so later), any empirical observation and posting how things work (and the flaws/bugs) would be great.

Sure thing. I intend to start a new playthrough soon, and I want it to contain Praetarius' 1.5 bugfix as well as your skill, stat and gear patches to shake things up. Any specific party you want field tested?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: hmsong on October 30, 2021, 06:50:48 pm
Sure thing. I intend to start a new playthrough soon, and I want it to contain Praetarius' 1.5 bugfix as well as your skill, stat and gear patches to shake things up. Any specific party you want field tested?

Angela, Duran, and Hawk.  I'd appreciate it if you can test how the double hitter is, relative to single hitter, and the speed-up-casting Angela is.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: lexluthermiester on October 30, 2021, 06:51:35 pm
@HMsong

Thank you for your excellent work on SD3! Your efforts have made recent playthroughs much more enjoyable! Well done indeed!
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: hmsong on October 30, 2021, 06:53:18 pm
You're welcome.  I'd appreciate any feedbacks, both positive and negative.  Feedbacks are how I get new ideas and improve.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: Red Soul on October 30, 2021, 07:25:31 pm
Angela, Duran, and Hawk.  I'd appreciate it if you can test how the double hitter is, relative to single hitter, and the speed-up-casting Angela is.

Got it. If you have discord or something similar, I can more easily share my observations with you.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: praetarius5018 on October 30, 2021, 07:35:29 pm
However, the new bugfix hack probably ignores any cast time edits that I did, meaning all casts are now super fast.
Correct, I took the function that calculates the casttime (simplified it just does base of spell + penalty of caster and their current class rank; e.g. Duran casts slower than Angela but by a constant difference) and reduced it to: "return 1".


Wtf!  Lol!  Wow.  I did notice that Specter and Heath have high evade, but I didn't know why.  That is incredible.
As far as I can see all the other stats behave as expected: higher tier version of a monster type has either same or better stats. It is just evade where it is weird like that. But then again: evade didn't work so who'd even notice.

If you want another kinda underused mechanic that makes barely sense:
you have two magic defenses; one powered by INT against INT based spells (the one displayed in the menu) and another hidden PIE based one against PIE based spells.
Monster have those as well and for almost all of them the 2 values are equal, exceptions are:
-magician and wizard -75% int, -99% pie; however high wizard has -74% on both (why...)
rest are bosses:
-machine golem boss edition: -89% int, -99% pie (the mob version has -99% on both, they clearly twinked the boss version as an anti-angela version)
-black rabite: -68% int, -70% pie
-koren: +120% int, +125% pie; highest values by a mile and with his angela stats that should make his magic defs still about equal despite me expecting that he has higher int def
-heath: +50% int, +125% pie; makes me feel like Heath was someone's creator pet with his godly evade and magic defenses

for the record the 3rd highest m.def is only +0% and a tie between jagan and deathjester
after that come the godbeasts around -20%
gorva at -59%
the majority is -80% or worse

Despite those miniscule m.defs magic damage sucks, this game man...
How does the player fare? Well... most boss unique spells target physical defense, so you have 2 stats that very rarely do anything.


So to be clear, at Lv40 (for player), all screen-freezing skills (including Heal Light) will have increased power?  Does that include Lv2/3 techs?  Are there any other skills that gain power?
Only damage spells and heal light as well as their item clones; it does not affect Lv2/3 techs or fraction skills.


Yikes.  If you can't find it, then it's very unlikely I'll be able to find it.  But I'll look around.  Maybe I'll get lucky.
Not so much "can't" as just fed up with SD3's quirks.

Worst comes to worst you could just create a patch that add the seeds to the 2nd cat shop.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: hmsong on October 30, 2021, 10:29:37 pm
@Red Soul

I don't often use discord, so I think this thread is the best place.  Besides, the feedback on this thread can be seen by everyone, so if I am able to fix some things, then it would encourage others to give their own feedback, which would encourage me to improve further.  You have your own hack, so perhaps you had people contact you for that, just as when I contacted you before.  That's how hacks get improve -- feedbacks.  Sure, some things may still go unfixed, but the first step in solving any problem is to know the existence of the problem.  That's why I value feedbacks (as long as it's civil).



@praetarius5018

Worst comes to worst you could just create a patch that add the seeds to the 2nd cat shop.

I already added Weapon/Armor Seed to one of the hidden shops for my Item Shop hack (and ??? Seed in the other).  And added the other typical seeds in the black market (although increased their price to lessen the abuse, at least until the middle of the game).  But the idea of adding Dragon Shield to one of the final shops sound interesting.  Maybe I'll add that to the final hidden shop.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: Red Soul on October 31, 2021, 04:49:51 am
@Red Soul

I don't often use discord, so I think this thread is the best place.  Besides, the feedback on this thread can be seen by everyone, so if I am able to fix some things, then it would encourage others to give their own feedback, which would encourage me to improve further.  You have your own hack, so perhaps you had people contact you for that, just as when I contacted you before.  That's how hacks get improve -- feedbacks.  Sure, some things may still go unfixed, but the first step in solving any problem is to know the existence of the problem.  That's why I value feedbacks (as long as it's civil).

No problem ^.^

I was checking your shop hack and while I like most of the changes you made, I'd appreciate if you'd make a variant that leaves the Angel Grail behavior untouched, if possible. That way, people that like the change will be happy, and people that don't like it (like me) will too. Up to you, though.

Also you mention in one of your readmes that you couldn't change the names of the skills to make new ones right? I'm just guessing here, but I think you'd need to dig into the game's text to change the names of things.

Speaking of text, maybe slightly offtopic, but is the font compressed? I really don't like the dialogue font of the fan translation and I'd love to change it.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: hmsong on October 31, 2021, 09:26:28 am
I was checking your shop hack and while I like most of the changes you made, I'd appreciate if you'd make a variant that leaves the Angel Grail behavior untouched, if possible. That way, people that like the change will be happy, and people that don't like it (like me) will too. Up to you, though.

Hmm.  Yeah, other people have mentioned something similar.  The reason I weakened Angel's Grail was because Angel's Grail really makes all other items obsolete.  But people have spoken.  I shall create a variant and release it, just as I did for Black Rabite.

Also you mention in one of your readmes that you couldn't change the names of the skills to make new ones right? I'm just guessing here, but I think you'd need to dig into the game's text to change the names of things.

Speaking of text, maybe slightly offtopic, but is the font compressed? I really don't like the dialogue font of the fan translation and I'd love to change it.

Yeah... but I have no idea where nor how to modify the texts.  If I could, I would have corrected numerous translation errors within the game.  I tried to contact the original translators, but I failed.  My idea was to create Freeze Breath (instead of Poison Breath), and give Blow Needle both poison and silence SEs.  Oh well.  You succeed on some things, and you fail on others.  Gotta work with what I have.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: Goros Lair on October 31, 2021, 11:02:43 am
Hey buddy! Is your hack compatible to this one? -> https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/179
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: hmsong on October 31, 2021, 11:12:25 am
Hey buddy! Is your hack compatible to this one? -> https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/179

Nope.  That hack is for Headered rom.  Mine (and pretty much everyone's hacks) are for No Header rom.

I'm gonna do everyone a favor, since this seems like a frequent question.  In the first post, I'm gonna post a link to a rom page.  Download the 3-player pre-patched SD3 rom.  Problem solved.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: praetarius5018 on October 31, 2021, 11:49:38 am
You could make an unheadered 3-player patch for your collection;
how to enable 3-player support is lined out here: https://tcrf.net/Trials_of_Mana#3-Player_Mode
literally just 2 bytes.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: Red Soul on October 31, 2021, 05:37:12 pm
Nope.  That hack is for Headered rom.  Mine (and pretty much everyone's hacks) are for No Header rom.

You can remove headers from patches themselves using this http://www.romhacking.net/utilities/1455/

Edit: I updated Hues of Mana to incorporate the correction noted by soul_knight (thanks) as well as modify the readme to include a link to HMSong's patches. Hopefully it gets approved soon.

Edit 2: Approved and updated.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: hmsong on October 31, 2021, 11:46:29 pm
@Red Soul, Soul_Knight

Okay, my Item Shop patch was updated and approved.  Now, you have the option of not getting the debuffed Angel's Grail.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: Red Soul on November 01, 2021, 12:18:19 am
@Red Soul, Soul_Knight

Okay, my Item Shop patch was updated and approved.  Now, you have the option of not getting the debuffed Angel's Grail.

Thank you so much for making it, despite this version not matching your vision.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: hmsong on November 01, 2021, 03:28:39 am
Yeah.  I have my own hack package (3-player mode being a part of it), and I could have created a no header hack for the public, but I felt it was unnecessary, because the rom link I posted already had a pre-patched 3-player no header rom.  It was literally the 1st link, when I googled, "seiken densetsu 3 rom 3 player".  I figured pretty much everyone would be able to find it.



@Red Soul

You're welcome.  Feel free to suggest more.  I'm open to creating things, even if I don't particularly agree.

I have a question.  There are official arts (SNES version) for character classes, based on what I found in the fantasyanime page (there's probably more than what I found there).  For your Hues of Mana, did you choose the colors based on those?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: Red Soul on November 01, 2021, 05:34:13 am
@Red Soul

You're welcome.  Feel free to suggest more.  I'm open to creating things, even if I don't particularly agree.

I have a question.  There are official arts (SNES version) for character classes, based on what I found in the fantasyanime page (there's probably more than what I found there).  For your Hues of Mana, did you choose the colors based on those?

Some of them I did, yes. Charlotte's Evil Shaman colors for example, but I didn't use the ones I didn't think made sense for the class (Angela's Grand Diviner is red in the artwork; it doesn't seem to fit a light class, to me).

Others, like Kevin's colors, are mostly my own choosing based on the benevolent guardians' mythos (as the class names suggest), although Death Hand is indeed dark blue in the artwork too, to coincide with Seiryuu.

There's yet another different case where I did only changes to existing palettes (most of Duran's were fine, though I got creative with Knight), and some I simply kept but they were weirdly oversaturated on the stat screen on the vanilla game (Hawk's Ranger and Rogue, especially the sashes/satchels).
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: hmsong on November 01, 2021, 09:02:27 pm
@Red Soul

Awesome.  I gotta say, I like how Kevin's final colors match the 4 gate sacred beasts (or whatever their group name is).  It was white tiger, black turtle, blue dragon, and red bird.  I heard there's a 5th god in the center (yellow something).  Not sure about that one.



@praetarius5018

It seems that the Chibikko correction from one of the previous versions is now making Chibikko SE into a scary melee monster (kills everything in one shot while being Chibikkoed).  You may want to correct that.

Btw, is there any difference between Chibikko and Moogle SE?  I mean, other than Moogle being Chibikko + Silence.  And I think Chibikko only reduces physical damage to 1, but that's it, right? (in Secret of Mana, it also reduced physical defense).
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: Red Soul on November 01, 2021, 10:54:23 pm
@Red Soul

Awesome.  I gotta say, I like how Kevin's final colors match the 4 gate sacred beasts (or whatever their group name is).  It was white tiger, black turtle, blue dragon, and red bird.  I heard there's a 5th god in the center (yellow something).  Not sure about that one.

That's correct. So you have, in the same order you used: Godhand (Byakko), Warrior Monk (Genbu), Death Hand (Seiryuu) and Dervish
(Suzaku, my personal favorite).

I believe in the Chinese version of the myth, the fifth beast was a Yellow Dragon, but don't quote me on that one.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 02, 2021, 06:54:11 am
It seems that the Chibikko correction from one of the previous versions is now making Chibikko SE into a scary melee monster (kills everything in one shot while being Chibikkoed).  You may want to correct that.
...and a game crash on top of it when I apply hammer to the full party... I hate this game...


Btw, is there any difference between Chibikko and Moogle SE?  I mean, other than Moogle being Chibikko + Silence.  And I think Chibikko only reduces physical damage to 1, but that's it, right? (in Secret of Mana, it also reduced physical defense).
mini = deal 1 dmg
moogle = auto miss, meaning you can't even build tp while you wait on your caster to heal you with tinkle rain


edit:
submitted with chibikko fix and casttime revert
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: soul_knight on November 02, 2021, 06:41:11 pm
You guys are good.  How do you people find all these errors?  I started a new game with v1.5, and I'm at Lampflower Garden, all the while looking for any errors, and I still haven't come across a situation about Chibikko error (despite having the hammer for a while now and using it often enough).  Do you guys have some sort of list you go through when looking for errors?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 02, 2021, 07:08:59 pm
You guys are good.  How do you people find all these errors?  I started a new game with v1.5, and I'm at Lampflower Garden, all the while looking for any errors, and I still haven't come across a situation about Chibikko error (despite having the hammer for a while now and using it often enough).  Do you guys have some sort of list you go through when looking for errors?
just flat out pure chance and bad luck:
hmsong told me about the chibikko damage bug so I went and hammered my whole team and immediatly the game reset; then I had to try 10 more times to reproduce that crash.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: Red Soul on November 02, 2021, 10:48:55 pm
@HMSong:

I had an idea to diversify Kevin a bit more. Maybe Warrior Monk could get Protect Up to emphasize the black turtle's resilience and patience.

@praetarius5018:

I checked the readme for bugfix 1.6 and it seems to remove insta cast. Was 1.5 also modified to fix the chibbiko crashes while keeping insta cast, or are the crashes only fixed in 1.6?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: hmsong on November 03, 2021, 02:54:40 am
@HMSong:

I had an idea to diversify Kevin a bit more. Maybe Warrior Monk could get Protect Up to emphasize the black turtle's resilience and patience.

I thought about doing that, because I gave Power Up to Duran DD.  The problem is, Protect Up is inferior in every way to the new Magic Shield (which raises Def, M.Def, and Eva), and I gave that to Duran LL.  And not to mention that Protect Up is useless once your Def reaches 300 points (remember, I used to use bugfix v1.2, which did not raise the Def with Protect Up).  So instead, I gave Kevin LD (Warrior Monk) the new Pressure Point, which raises Atk, M.Atk, and Acc -- exactly opposite of Magic Shield.  I thought about making Pressure Point raise Atk, Def, and Acc, but I felt that it would be way too powerful.  I already made it so that Pressure Point can target other allies.

But now that I'm using v1.6 (totally flawless hack from what I can tell so far), Protect Up sounds pretty good.  I did think Kevin LD was lacking (even with the new Pressure Point), due to his inferior innate Str -- now that LL can use MT Heal Light, very few people have any reason to use LD.  Perhaps having multiple stat up skills may be good.  Maybe I'll make Pressure Point only target Kevin, and give him Protect Up.  I shall consider it for the next update.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: Red Soul on November 03, 2021, 02:59:03 am
But now that I'm using v1.6 (totally flawless hack from what I can tell so far), Protect Up sounds pretty good.  I did think Kevin LD was lacking (even with the new Pressure Point), due to his inferior innate Str -- now that LL can use MT Heal Light, very few people have any reason to use LD.  Perhaps having multiple stat up skills may be good.  Maybe I'll make Pressure Point only target Kevin, and give him Protect Up.  I shall consider it for the next update.

Thanks! I myself never used LD Kevin despite loving all his other classes, so I think maybe a bit more specialization would go a long way towards making Warrior Monk different but useful. Having a single target CS is a big step down in terms of damage output, so he needs something else.

Edit: I started the playthrough you requested, by the way. Not much to report so far at all. Hawk has been hitting for about as much damage as Angela outside of crits (expected with the nerf I suppose), but the overall pace of the game didn't change so far.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: Pethronos on November 03, 2021, 03:51:54 am
Really happy to see how you all join forces and share your different approaches and discuss about how to improve so many aspects of the game. Praetarius is right, it's a extremely flawed game, but no doubt it has charm and ambition like few others, what makes it so special and lovable, as this thread states. Thank you all.

Also thanks Praetarius for your last, more complete submission!! ;D A proper changelog is interesting to see the evolution of a project, why the changes, etc.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: Red Soul on November 03, 2021, 03:56:07 am
Really happy to see how you all join forces and share your different approaches and discuss about how to improve so many aspects of the game. Praetarius is right, it's a extremely flawed game, but no doubt it has charm and ambition like few others, what makes it so special and lovable, as this thread states. Thank you all.

Also thanks Praetarius for your last, more complete submission!! ;D A proper changelog is interesting to see the evolution of a project, why the changes, etc.

It's definitely a game worth being improved and played, even all these years later. Honestly even with the remake, I think the original holds up wonderfully. Even though what I personally brought to the table was just cosmetic, I was happy to make it, and hopefully others will make full use of whatever is created by everyone's combined efforts.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 03, 2021, 04:44:10 am
I checked the readme for bugfix 1.6 and it seems to remove insta cast. Was 1.5 also modified to fix the chibbiko crashes while keeping insta cast, or are the crashes only fixed in 1.6?
No, the old versions still have that crash.
The crash existed since 1.3.
If I now started backporting those fixes I'd not manage just one hack under the "fix only" label but an ever increasing amount; this would get out of hand super fast.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: Red Soul on November 03, 2021, 05:16:27 am
No, the old versions still have that crash.
The crash existed since 1.3.
If I now started backporting those fixes I'd not manage just one hack under the "fix only" label but an ever increasing amount; this would get out of hand super fast.

That's understandable. I'm assuming it's not possible to have the cast time cancellation as a separate optional patch to add in tandem with the base bugfix?
I've been thinking and I feel a good way to keep Angela relevant in comparison to melee party members would be to make her cast time zero and leave others alone. What do you think?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 03, 2021, 10:48:29 am
That's understandable. I'm assuming it's not possible to have the cast time cancellation as a separate optional patch to add in tandem with the base bugfix?
I've been thinking and I feel a good way to keep Angela relevant in comparison to melee party members would be to make her cast time zero and leave others alone. What do you think?
Possible, yes, but I don't think it matters.
The casttime bug is still a thing so her casttime is effectively instant as long as you have a reason to open the menu for a different char.

Imo there are 2 options:
1) set casttime to 0 so players don't get even tempted to cheat by opening the menu or having a boss cast a spell or litterally ANYTHING that pauses the main battle scene - this option was loudly vetoed.
2) assume players are responsible enough not to cheat with casttime - I don't trust that one


If we go that route I can just as well add new features like: able to switch which side you target with your spells, heal light hurting undead, running, ... yeah that goes WAY beyond bug fix and maybe minor balance adjustment.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: Red Soul on November 03, 2021, 04:48:17 pm
Possible, yes, but I don't think it matters.
The casttime bug is still a thing so her casttime is effectively instant as long as you have a reason to open the menu for a different char.

Imo there are 2 options:
1) set casttime to 0 so players don't get even tempted to cheat by opening the menu or having a boss cast a spell or litterally ANYTHING that pauses the main battle scene - this option was loudly vetoed.
2) assume players are responsible enough not to cheat with casttime - I don't trust that one

Eh, there will always be naysayers, moaners and cheaters. I didn't write a review of the bugfix yet (I will, though), but I personally think zero cast for Angela (assuming non-exploitative play)  is still the best solution if a fix of the code itself isn't worth the trouble.

It's impossible to prevent people from cheating, so that's on them; if zero is too much, accelerating it a few steps could be the best middle ground but it's your baby, I'm just sharing my thoughts.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: soul_knight on November 03, 2021, 08:41:07 pm
@praetarius5018

Hey, in your recent bugfix patch, for the critical hit, you used "weapon factor" to determine the power increase.  What is that?  I mean, for the characters (for monsters, it's level/4).  Is it the strength of weapons?  I don't know which is the most powerful weapon, but assuming it's Duran's final weapon (Duran LD had 334 power with the final weapon, but he had 69 power with Maia weapon, so the final weapon's at least 265 power), that means the critical hit can be as high as [17 * 265 /3], which is additional 1500 damage.  That's obviously wrong, meaning weapon factor isn't weapon power.  So what is weapon factor?

It... pains me say this, but bug report.  Matango Oil (or perhaps Counter Magic too?) causes the game to crash.

If we go that route I can just as well add new features like: able to switch which side you target with your spells, heal light hurting undead, running, ... yeah that goes WAY beyond bug fix and maybe minor balance adjustment.

Some of those sound nice, but as you said, that goes way beyond bugfix + minor balance adjustment.  Having said that, can you simply increase the movement speed during the battle stance of the controlled character?  Not quite to the point of running speed (that's too fast, and defeats the purpose of the battle stance), but faster than the default crawl speed.  Something right in between.  A minor improvement that's more of anti-frustration.  I think that falls under minor adjustment.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 04, 2021, 06:21:54 am
Hey, in your recent bugfix patch, for the critical hit, you used "weapon factor" to determine the power increase.  What is that?
The same factor a weapon gives to your STR to calculate ATK; the starter weapons have x2, the best weapons have x15.


It... pains me say this, but bug report.  Matango Oil (or perhaps Counter Magic too?) causes the game to crash.
Of course it does; why WOULDN'T a change to crit rate make counter magic crash.

submitting update in a moment...


Having said that, can you simply increase the movement speed during the battle stance of the controlled character?
Not that I know of.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: Red Soul on November 04, 2021, 07:00:39 am
Of course it does; why WOULDN'T a change to crit rate make counter magic crash.

submitting update in a moment...

This game certainly is complicated and I know all these bugs cropping up are annoying, but for what's worth, we value your hard work and dedication greatly.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: hmsong on November 04, 2021, 07:45:50 am
@soul_knight

Good job in noticing that.  I can't believe I missed that.



praetarius5018

I know you're very tired of this game, but truly, thank you for your hard work.  I'm sure everyone here (and anyone who uses your patch) appreciates it greatly.

Just a minor bug report regarding Counter Magic (vanilla, and probably still applicable for your patch) -- whenever an enemy uses Counter Magic (Gildervine, Mispolm), they reflect Air, Fire, and Water magic, but not Earth, Light, Dark, and Tree magic.  Counter Magic works as intended (reflects all elements) when the player uses it though.  I'm not sure why that's the case, since Gildervine is only immune to Tree magic, so elemental weakness/strength doesn't seem to have anything to do with it.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 04, 2021, 02:44:31 pm
Just a minor bug report regarding Counter Magic (vanilla, and probably still applicable for your patch) -- whenever an enemy uses Counter Magic (Gildervine, Mispolm), they reflect Air, Fire, and Water magic, but not Earth, Light, Dark, and Tree magic.  Counter Magic works as intended (reflects all elements) when the player uses it though.  I'm not sure why that's the case, since Gildervine is only immune to Tree magic, so elemental weakness/strength doesn't seem to have anything to do with it.
That seems to be intentional.
If checks if the target is a boss unit or anything else; if it is not a boss it writes FF into the repel field (meaning all 8 elements), for bosses it only gives 0E (wind, water, fire).
No idea why, but that is what the code does.


Honestly I believe the evade modifiers were decided while drunk; most of them make little logical sense.
Examples:
ninja -98%
ninja master +8%
nightblade -57% (yes, the master of assassination evades worse than any of the mages)
magician -12%
wizard +5% (3rd highest out of all non-bosses, seriously)
high wizard -27%
specter +100%
ghost -44% (the evolved form of a typically incorporal creature, ladies and gentlemen)

bill/ben +0%
koren +15%
heath +70%(!!)
dangaard -100% (flying creature during high speed chase? free hits ofc!)
to make that even more nonsensical:
monster AGL caps out at 20
monster evade: ((1.4x AGL) + 5) x (100% + type_modifier)

there's even different monster with evade adjustment between -100%, -99%, -98%; values that can never be different with the given evade formula

accuracy is 1.5x AGL
there's a lot of monster with -85% or so evade
at max level they still can't even dodge a Lv1 Angela
just food for thought
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: Red Soul on November 04, 2021, 07:28:55 pm
Updated to 1.7
Thank you so much for making insta-cast an independent patch! That way, those that complained about it being a thing before won't anymore, and those that like it (like me) can use it.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: soul_knight on November 05, 2021, 12:23:27 am
@hmsong

Can you remove your No Skill Counter from your Balance patch?  It's making most bosses into a joke.  Even Black Rabite is a joke, because he doesn't use his unique "spell combo" nor Ancient.  My guess is that No Skill Counter, combined with praetarius5018's Luck skill deny, is making things this way.  But with just praetarius5018's patch, enemies can still use their skills.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: Red Soul on November 05, 2021, 03:19:31 am
@hmsong

Can you remove your No Skill Counter from your Balance patch?  It's making most bosses into a joke.  Even Black Rabite is a joke, because he doesn't use his unique "spell combo" nor Ancient.  My guess is that No Skill Counter, combined with praetarius5018's Luck skill deny, is making things this way.  But with just praetarius5018's patch, enemies can still use their skills.

Personaly, I'm actually enjoying being able to use magic and class strikes without being punished for it, for once.

In the vanilla game, only Lv1 CS was any good because it didn't dim the screen and thus didn't expose the player to insta-counters.

If possible, please leave one of the Class Rebalances as is regading this, HMSong.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: hmsong on November 05, 2021, 10:35:43 am
Okay, I'll make it optional.  I'm gonna make two packages (regarding skills), so that you can choose which one to apply.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: Red Soul on November 05, 2021, 05:38:00 pm
Okay, I'll make it optional.  I'm gonna make two packages (regarding skills), so that you can choose which one to apply.

Thank you, you are awesome.

By the way, you refer to classes in branches in he readme. May I suggest you use the actual names? I say this because Kevin DL and DD were erroneously swapped around in the SNES version, and I'm not sure if your skill changes refer to Dervish or Death Hand.

@praetarius5018:
By the way on the description and readme of the bugfix you mention "fixed Kevin’s Deathhand and Bashkar being mixed up in menu"  but it's actually Dervish and Death Hand being swapped around that you fixed, so you might want to correct the description on the RHDN entry and readme if you have the inclination to do so.

Also, it might be beneficial to modify the description to state that insta-cast is now independent and optional, so people don't dump bad reviews on your hard work just because they think it's included (the current description makes it sound that way).

Again many thanks for that fix too, by the way.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: hmsong on November 05, 2021, 10:05:41 pm
By the way, you refer to classes in branches in he readme. May I suggest you use the actual names? I say this because Kevin DL and DD were erroneously swapped around in the SNES version, and I'm not sure if your skill changes refer to Dervish or Death Hand.

The reason I didn't do that is because of 2 reasons:
1. If you only look at the SNES version, there's literally no indication that Death Hand belongs to DD class (nor Dervish belongs to DL class).   Therefore, it didn't make sense to think that Death Hand belongs to DD class.
2. The Balance patch can also be used by Trials of Mana, and that game uses different names for many classes, including Death Hand and Dervish (I think they're called Fatal Fist and Enlightened).
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: Red Soul on November 05, 2021, 10:58:07 pm
The reason I didn't do that is because of 2 reasons:

1. If you only look at the SNES version, there's literally no indication that Death Hand belongs to DD class (nor Dervish belongs to DL class).   Therefore, it didn't make sense to think that Death Hand belongs to DD class.

Sorry, but I disagree. The palete locations are exactly that indication. Inside the ROM's memory, the palettes are ordered by class and all follow the same order, the very last palette for Kevin is Death Hand, even though the class branching on the menu indicates otherwise.

The palettes are flipped and completely wrong for these two classes (and no other for any other character). What this results in is the palette for the status screen render and sprite to be horribly mismatched (I'm talking vanilla game here) and this doesn't happen to any other branch of any other class.

So, assuming they intended Dervish to be DD at some point, they certainly forgot to change things around (which I don't believe is the case, or the remake would also have made Dervish into DD, considering all the class branching is the same, except Kevin's final Dark ones; I can't see this as anything other than a correction.

Also the God Hand/Dervish pairing makes absolutely no sense at all as the extremes for Light and Darkness, IMO.

2. The Balance patch can also be used by Trials of Mana, and that game uses different names for many classes, including Death Hand and Dervish (I think they're called Fatal Fist and Enlightened).

Indeed, it's true the names change, but the branches themselves don't, so I had to ask what you consider as DL on your change list so I can choose a class for Kevin next time I play based on your changes.

So just to be sure, it's the Dervish that gets these?

Body Change, MT Moon Saber, Life Booster, Half Vanish.

I like these changes by the way, Dervish is my favorite Kevin class.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: hmsong on November 06, 2021, 04:04:37 am
So just to be sure, it's the Dervish that gets these?

Body Change, MT Moon Saber, Life Booster, Half Vanish.

I like these changes by the way, Dervish is my favorite Kevin class.

Yes, for my current patch, Dervish is indeed DD.  Anyways, you make a good point, and I certainly want my patches to be aligned to the bugfix patch, so for Kevin D classes specifically, I'll make sure to note that DL is Death Hand/Fatal Fist, and DD is Dervish/Enlightened.  That way, less people will be confused.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: Red Soul on November 06, 2021, 04:56:22 am
Yes, for my current patch, Dervish is indeed DD.  Anyways, you make a good point, and I certainly want my patches to be aligned to the bugfix patch, so for Kevin D classes specifically, I'll make sure to note that DL is Death Hand/Fatal Fist, and DD is Dervish/Enlightened.  That way, less people will be confused.

Thanks, and sorry for the text wall. Just sharing thoughts here, not trying to convince you or anything. I like your changes, by the way, though it's a pity completely new spells can't be made with proper names and such.

I now just beat Gildervine (Delver, Knight, Ninja) and Angela's melee is pretty paltry as you can imagine. Duran and Hawk are at about the same damage level, which is what I had observed early on, though Hawk will outdamage Duran when criting, which seems correct.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: hmsong on November 06, 2021, 05:10:56 am
Thanks, and sorry for the text wall. Just sharing thoughts here, not trying to convince you or anything. I like your changes, by the way, though it's a pity completely new spells can't be made with proper names and such.

I now just beat Gildervine (Delver, Knight, Ninja) and Angela's melee is pretty paltry as you can imagine. Duran and Hawk are at about the same damage level, which is what I had observed early on, though Hawk will outdamage Duran when criting, which seems correct.

No no.  I welcome all criticisms, as long as it's civil.  I just submitted updates for Class Balance (with your requests) and Item Shop (with soul_knight's request).  Check that out once it's approved.  Be sure to read the document, because there are two different effects, depending on the order of applying.

If Hawk and Duran do about the same normal damage, then that's a perfect balance.  That's exactly what I want.  Hawk may outclass Duran in crit, but Duran outclasses Hawk with Lv2/3 techs.

I'm working on another patch that uses Acc/Eva more, but that'll take some time.  I hope you try it out once I complete it.  That patch is only relevant if it's used with the bugfix patch though.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: Red Soul on November 06, 2021, 05:27:26 am
No no.  I welcome all criticisms, as long as it's civil.  I just submitted updates for Class Balance (with your requests) and Item Shop (with soul_knight's request).  Check that out once it's approved.  Be sure to read the document, because there are two different effects, depending on the order of applying.

If Hawk and Duran do about the same normal damage, then that's a perfect balance.  That's exactly what I want.  Hawk may outclass Duran in crit, but Duran outclasses Hawk with Lv2/3 techs.

I'm working on another patch that uses Acc/Eva more, but that'll take some time.  I hope you try it out once I complete it.  That patch is only relevant if it's used with the bugfix patch though.

I try to maintain the same posture. Also, it's an issue with the vanilla game (that the bugfix patch also rectified - that bugged me for years, you know?) and not caused by your modifications, so don't worry about that.

Yeah from what I could observe, Hawk is doing more or less the same Duran does, damage wise (split in two slashes). I thought the 1/4 was going to ruin Kevin and Hawk at first, but I dare say they are still incredibly good (though I still maintain Kevin should be a wee bit stronger than anyone else, being half beast man).

According to class lore, Kevin's dark branch relies on the power of the werewolf more than the light classes, so maybe Dervish and Death Hand should get their 15% power bonus reinstated for werewolf? just a thought mind you.

Oh I'm definitely using the bugfix all the time now. Currently my test run has the following, in this order:

Bugfix 1.7, Optional Insta-Cast (my personal preference here; I want to see if without casting delays Angela can compete with meleers. so far, she's been a real asset rather than a liability, but maybe with enemy counters toned down, insta-cast isn't needed to enjoy magic), Class Balance Bundle and Item Shop (Quarter).
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 06, 2021, 06:15:35 am
By the way on the description and readme of the bugfix you mention "fixed Kevin’s Deathhand and Bashkar being mixed up in menu"  but it's actually Dervish and Death Hand being swapped around that you fixed, so you might want to correct the description on the RHDN entry and readme if you have the inclination to do so.

Also, it might be beneficial to modify the description to state that insta-cast is now independent and optional, so people don't dump bad reviews on your hard work just because they think it's included (the current description makes it sound that way).
Done. Thanks for pointing it out.


According to class lore, Kevin's dark branch relies on the power of the werewolf more than the light classes, so maybe Dervish and Death Hand should get their 15% power bonus reinstated for werewolf? just a thought mind you.
Since that is handled in the compressed section, no chance.
Even if that wasn't a restriction, remember that Death Hand was already Kevin's strongest class and now is even stronger with the fixed energy ball, so yet another buff there is out in my book.


my personal preference here; I want to see if without casting delays Angela can compete with meleers. so far, she's been a real asset rather than a liability, but maybe with enemy counters toned down, insta-cast isn't needed to enjoy magic
Here's where the issue starts: who do we compare her "dps" to?
Duran, Hawk or Kevin?
With insta-cast she'd probably be closer to Kevin, maybe even above him (which is fine with mp costs and counter reactions being a thing),
with fixed cast time she'd probably be a good bit below Duran.
With the bugged cast time she's bouncing between both extremes, so ironically this would be the more balanced option...
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: Red Soul on November 06, 2021, 06:30:52 am
Since that is handled in the compressed section, no chance.
Even if that wasn't a restriction, remember that Death Hand was already Kevin's strongest class and now is even stronger with the fixed energy ball, so yet another buff there is out in my book.

True, there's energy ball. Well Death Hand is the "most evil" and darkest, as well strongest from the branch, I guess EB might as well account for the Death Wolf's incredible strength.

Here's where the issue starts: who do we compare her "dps" to?
Duran, Hawk or Kevin?
With insta-cast she'd probably be closer to Kevin, maybe even above him (which is fine with mp costs and counter reactions being a thing),
with fixed cast time she'd probably be a good bit below Duran.
With the bugged cast time she's bouncing between both extremes, so ironically this would be the more balanced option...

Well, you got me there. Your estimates seem on point based on my observations. I know it's not intended design, but insta-casting Angela is a serious powerhouse. I managed to pretty much lock Lugar down and he couldn't fire off more than two counters the whole fight (and Lugar is a pretty brutal fight for that point in the game).

By fixed cast time you mean if menu shuffling didn't run the magic counter down?
As for the cast bug, I guess it depends on how much the player is willing to cheat the system in regards to her casting.

If I had the means to fix it, I'd make her cast faster than anyone else by margin, since she's a dedicated caster. I suppose Carlie is too, and a half elf to boot, so maybe they both would cast faster? I guess.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: hmsong on November 06, 2021, 07:33:33 pm
If I had the means to fix it, I'd make her cast faster than anyone else by margin, since she's a dedicated caster. I suppose Carlie is too, and a half elf to boot, so maybe they both would cast faster? I guess.

Both final Angela and Carlie have insta cast (or as close as to it), assuming the spell themselves have no cast time.  For example, let's take Heal Light (which has 01 cast time, which btw is the fastest).  Duran and Kevin in their final classes still take some time to cast Heal Light, but Angela and Carlie casts that immediately (I used PAR code to give Angela Heal Light).  In short, both of those characters have the fastest natural cast time.

praetarius5018 said that all characters get their cast time enhanced if they class up, so maybe both Angela and Carlie had faster cast time, even in their base classes, relative to other base class characters.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 06, 2021, 08:08:47 pm
praetarius5018 said that all characters get their cast time enhanced if they class up, so maybe both Angela and Carlie had faster cast time, even in their base classes, relative to other base class characters.
Duran&Kevin: 120/90/60
Hawk&Lise: 90/60/30
Angela&Charlie: 60/30/1
those values are added to the casttime for base/1st/2nd class
I think 30 is about 1 second
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: hmsong on November 06, 2021, 08:51:25 pm
Duran&Kevin: 120/90/60
Hawk&Lise: 90/60/30
Angela&Charlie: 60/30/1
those values are added to the casttime for base/1st/2nd class
I think 30 is about 1 second

Ahh.  That makes sense, although I think those numbers are frames/sec, meaning 60 is one second (I think the game runs at 60 frames/sec).  Based on empirical observation, final Kevin takes less than 2 seconds to cast Heal Light, although definitely more than 1 sec.  So my guess to the cast time is [initial pose time] + [character cast time] + [spell cast time].  That's why even for Carlie, her cast time for Heal Light isn't instant (it's about 1/4~1/2 sec, I think).
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: Red Soul on November 06, 2021, 09:00:06 pm
Ahh.  That makes sense, although I think those numbers are frames/sec, meaning 60 is one second (I think the game runs at 60 frames/sec).  Based on empirical observation, final Kevin takes less than 2 seconds to cast Heal Light, although definitely more than 1 sec.  So my guess to the cast time is [initial pose time] + [character cast time] + [spell cast time].  That's why even for Carlie, her cast time for Heal Light isn't instant (it's about 1/4~1/2 sec, I think).

So the shortest natural cast is Carlie's Heal Light? it would be interesting to know to have a baseline.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: hmsong on November 06, 2021, 09:09:51 pm
So the shortest natural cast is Carlie's Heal Light? it would be interesting to know to have a baseline.

For vanilla, yes.  There are quite a lot of spells with 1 frame cast time in vanilla.  I upped the cast time for many of those spells (~30 frames), including Heal Light in Class Balance.  The only spells with insta casts in Class Balance are Pressure Point and Silver Dart.  Of course, I decreased the cast time for many other spells, but that's a different story.  But now that I know the specifics of "character cast time frame", I may have to readjust.

And that reminds me.  It seems Carlie and Angela really do have insta cast time.  I messed up my previous statement, because I was using my own Class Balance, and obviously, Heal Light had upped cast time.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Messianic on November 06, 2021, 09:23:12 pm
Probably more a question for praetorius;

I am wondering if it is possible to make a graded version of enemy skill countering instead of the all or nothing options that currently exist. Either something like 25-30% chance to counter for standard enemies and 50-60% chance for bosses, or if not, perhaps a flat 40-45% for everyone?

I find that no skill counter breaks the game balance to being too easy and the vanilla 100% gives casters a headache.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 06, 2021, 09:41:55 pm
Probably more a question for praetorius;

I am wondering if it is possible to make a graded version of enemy skill countering instead of the all or nothing options that currently exist. Either something like 25-30% chance to counter for standard enemies and 50-60% chance for bosses, or if not, perhaps a flat 40-45% for everyone?

I find that no skill counter breaks the game balance to being too easy and the vanilla 100% gives casters a headache.

His bugfix patch did that.  Just don't use No Skill Counter when you use Class Balance, and his bugfix makes it so that all enemies (normal and bosses) may not use their skills, depending on your Luck stat.  If you have higher Luck stat, the enemy has less chance of using the skills.  It's out of 30, and the highest Luck stat (Hawk has this) is 22, so there's still 1/3 of chance that the enemy will use skills.  Angela and Carlie also have high Luck stats, so that makes sense.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Messianic on November 06, 2021, 10:06:29 pm
Ah, so that is what the luck counter is about. Well now that I understand this it seems using no skill counter and keeping luck counter is the way to go for that.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on November 07, 2021, 12:51:48 am
I wish Luck counter math was something like, [[Enemy's Luck] - [Attacker's Luck] + 3 ] / 5.  That way, if low level characters fought equally low level enemies, the enemies will have at least 1/3 chance of using counter attack, and if high level characters fought equally high level enemies, then the enemies will also have at least 1/3 chance of using counter attack.  I don't know how it is currently, but based on the description, at the beginning of the game, enemies will have high chance to counter (because you have low luck), while at the end of the game, enemies will have low chance to counter.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: Red Soul on November 07, 2021, 02:46:37 am
For vanilla, yes.  There are quite a lot of spells with 1 frame cast time in vanilla.  I upped the cast time for many of those spells (~30 frames), including Heal Light in Class Balance.  The only spells with insta casts in Class Balance are Pressure Point and Silver Dart.  Of course, I decreased the cast time for many other spells, but that's a different story.  But now that I know the specifics of "character cast time frame", I may have to readjust.

And that reminds me.  It seems Carlie and Angela really do have insta cast time.  I messed up my previous statement, because I was using my own Class Balance, and obviously, Heal Light had upped cast time.

So if I understand correctly, it's easier to manipulate the cast times of spells rather than characters?
If so, how about delaying cast times based on some sort of ratio between cost and spell power?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: jeffythedragonslayer on November 07, 2021, 03:52:36 am
Hi there, does anyone know how to recreate the 3rd player freezing up bug in the 3 player romhack?  I want to test my 65816 assembly skills and give it a shot.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: lexluthermiester on November 07, 2021, 04:39:10 am
So if I understand correctly, it's easier to manipulate the cast times of spells rather than characters?
If so, how about delaying cast times based on some sort of ratio between cost and spell power?
Oh, please no. The spells take long enough to cast as it is, we don't need a delay.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: Red Soul on November 07, 2021, 04:43:54 am
Oh, please no. The spells take long enough to cast as it is, we don't need a delay.

Don't get me wrong, you're totally right. I've been just brainstorming here trying to find a viable balance between vanilla (really buggy due to the casting bug exploit) and the absurdly powerful insta-cast option I've been doing a playthrough with as a test.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 07, 2021, 05:27:22 am
I wish Luck counter math was something like, [[Enemy's Luck] - [Attacker's Luck] + 3 ] / 5.  That way, if low level characters fought equally low level enemies, the enemies will have at least 1/3 chance of using counter attack, and if high level characters fought equally high level enemies, then the enemies will also have at least 1/3 chance of using counter attack.
problem is range of values.

Code: [Select]
who: starting value - range of caps for final classes
-----------------
monster: 3 - 16
Duran: 2 - 15-17
Kevin: 2 - 15-17
Hawk: 6 - 20-22
Angela: 4 - 15-17
Charlie: 5 - 18-20
Lise: 3 - 16-18 (lower start than Angela but higher end)

I can't check what would trigger the reaction (L2/3 tech or spell), so I need one formula that accounts for all cases. And there needs to be still a reason for Hawk go all the way to 22 while Duran/Angela with 15 still needs to get something out of it.

So my first suggestion would be to start with a char specific bonus to lessen the range we have to deal with:
Duran, Kevin, Angela +2
Hawk +0
Charlie, Lise +1
Second would be to arbitrarely decide that Hawk with 22 luck vs 16 luck monster should have 80% counter negate chance.
And third to give 10% per point, so my formula would be:
Code: [Select]
chance to negate counter = 10% x (2 + user's luck + user's char bonus - target's luck)
so for the given points in the game we'd get:
Code: [Select]
monster: 3 - 16
Duran (+2): 2 - 15-17 -> 30% - 30%-50%
Kevin (+2): 2 - 15-17 -> 30% - 30%-50%
Hawk (+0): 6 - 20-22 -> 50% - 60%-80%
Angela (+2): 4 - 15-17 -> 30% - 30%-50%
Charlie (+1): 5 - 18-20 -> 50% - 50%-70%
Lise (+1): 3 - 16-18 -> 30% - 30%-50%
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 07, 2021, 05:36:51 am
I wonder what actually triggers the counters.
Does the AI get vengeful every time when something hits all targets or does the game use specific threshold values like
damage inflicted at once? maybe it counters at specific HP thresholds?

It seems inconsistent vanilla because I lost count of how many times I'd get wiped by Nightblades on Glass Desert because they seemingly had a full tedh gauge or close to full when I stepped onto the area they spawn at.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 07, 2021, 06:04:43 am
I wonder what actually triggers the counters.
Does the AI get vengeful every time when something hits all targets or does the game use specific threshold values like
damage inflicted at once? maybe it counters at specific HP thresholds?
there are no thresholds; the AI just checks what it was hit by and if it falls in the right category it tries to queue a counter action (if the monster type has one); though same as when I press the tech button that action may get eaten up by lag or similar issues.

small monster just check if they were hit at all by a time freezing move. big boss monster may also check for element of the spell; e.g. hitting landumber with wind magic gets a reaction but his second weakness of fire does not.


It seems inconsistent vanilla because I lost count of how many times I'd get wiped by Nightblades on Glass Desert because they seemingly had a full tedh gauge or close to full when I stepped onto the area they spawn at.
monster don't use tech gauges, they can use spells and techs whenever they feel like it. pure RNG really.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks
Post by: lexluthermiester on November 07, 2021, 06:08:40 am
the absurdly powerful insta-cast option I've been doing a playthrough with as a test.
Um, go with this please. As far as I'm concern, when I cast a spell I expect it to go off as soon as I press the button. We're talking about real-time hand-to-hand combat not Final Fantasy turn based dynamics.

Please, no delays on spell casting.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 07, 2021, 06:10:53 am
there are no thresholds; the AI just checks what it was hit by and if it falls in the right category it tries to queue a counter action (if the monster type has one); though same as when I press the tech button that action may get eaten up by lag or similar issues.

small monster just check if they were hit at all by a time freezing move. big boss monster may also check for element of the spell; e.g. hitting landumber with wind magic gets a reaction but his second weakness of fire does not.

monster don't use tech gauges, they can use spells and techs whenever they feel like it. pure RNG really.

Well then, I guess I have been pretty unlucky in my playhroughs in general haha.

So bosses are scripted and use spells at random? Funny you brought up Land Umber, got totally creamed in my test playthrough (courtesy of insta-cast explodes) but impressively Dolan was dangerous even with that.

November 07, 2021, 06:13:40 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Um, go with this please. As far as I'm concern, when I cast a spell I expect it to go off as soon as I press the button. We're talking about real-time hand-to-hand combat not Final Fantasy turn based dynamics.

Please, no delays on spell casting.

It's pretty fun, not gonna lie (the insta-cast patch is optional as of bugfix 1.7; Praetarius5018 has been doing a phenomenal job and the patch is totally recommended whether insta-cast is appended to it or not), Angela went from an eternal bench warmer (never used her much, save for one playthrough) to a complete demolisher.

Again, I'm just wondering about a "natural balance" of sorts. Was casting instant in Secret of Mana? I forget.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: lexluthermiester on November 07, 2021, 06:30:59 am
Was casting instant in Secret of Mana? I forget.
It was. Regardless of the spell, the caster or the level of the spell, the moment you pressed the button, the caster sets the spell off. This is of course when the spell cast glitch was not in effect. So effectively the only wait time was the charge meter, which I always did away with using game genie as it fair because the charge meter was also removed for enemies. This introduced a new type challenge as the enemies could spam spells as quick as the player and some of them did.

I'd love to have that same dynamic in SD3/SOM2/TOM.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 07, 2021, 06:35:11 am
Again, I'm just wondering about a "natural balance" of sorts. Was casting instant in Secret of Mana? I forget.
Magic in Secret of Mana was super OP.
Nearly instantly goes off (first the elemental spirit appears then the spell actually starts), stops the target from doing anything at all so you can just chain the next spell while the current spell deals its damage. Also walnuts give 50 MP while most spells cost 2-3.
And most importantly no counter reactions to spells being cast.
Effectively the game had like 4 real boss fights and 30 cutscenes: mantis, tropicalo, big cat because you don't have magic yet and the final boss because all spells do 1 damage.
With that I understand that they had to take some measures to reign in spellcasters here but they went too far.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 07, 2021, 06:52:52 am
And third to give 10% per point, so my formula would be:
Code: [Select]
chance to negate counter = 10% x (2 + user's luck + user's char bonus - target's luck)
so for the given points in the game we'd get:
Code: [Select]
monster: 3 - 16
Duran (+2): 2 - 15-17 -> 30% - 30%-50%
Kevin (+2): 2 - 15-17 -> 30% - 30%-50%
Hawk (+0): 6 - 20-22 -> 50% - 60%-80%
Angela (+2): 4 - 15-17 -> 30% - 30%-50%
Charlie (+1): 5 - 18-20 -> 50% - 50%-70%
Lise (+1): 3 - 16-18 -> 30% - 30%-50%

That seems very reasonable.  Well, I prefer:
 Chance to negate counter = 10% x (1 + user's luck + user's char bonus - target's luck)

with char bonus of the following:
 monster: 3 - 16
 Duran (+3): 2 - 15-17 -> 30% - 30%-50%
 Kevin (+3): 2 - 15-17 -> 30% - 30%-50%
 Hawk (+0): 6 - 20-22 -> 50% - 50%-70%
 Angela (+3): 4 - 15-17 -> 30% - 30%-50%
 Charlie (+1): 5 - 18-20 -> 40% - 40%-60%
 Lise (+2): 3 - 16-18 -> 30% - 30%-50%

I think Hawk having 60~80% negate is a little too much.

Something different.  I was working on Eva, and assuming monster evade is ((1.4x AGL) + 5) x (100% + type_modifier), then Specter Lv13 in Ghost Ship (who has 100 for modifier and AGL of 9) will have evade rate of 34 (rounded down).  And if I used Angela and didn't raise AGL at all (AGL 2), then she'll have accuracy of 3.  So 34-3 = 31.  So she'll miss 31% of time?  I used her in Ghost Ship (killed off the rest of the teams to test her thoroughly), and she seemed to miss way more than 30% though.  Did I miscalculate something somewhere, or was I just unlucky?

Magic in Secret of Mana was super OP.
Nearly instantly goes off (first the elemental spirit appears then the spell actually starts), stops the target from doing anything at all so you can just chain the next spell while the current spell deals its damage. Also walnuts give 50 MP while most spells cost 2-3.
And most importantly no counter reactions to spells being cast.
Effectively the game had like 4 real boss fights and 30 cutscenes: mantis, tropicalo, big cat because you don't have magic yet and the final boss because all spells do 1 damage.
With that I understand that they had to take some measures to reign in spellcasters here but they went too far.

Yeah.  That's why Turbo hack (prob the most popular SoM hack compilation) gave the magic recharge time, just to prevent people from chaining.  That made the game way more balanced, although magic still overpowered melee attacks.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 07, 2021, 08:21:01 am
Something different.  I was working on Eva, and assuming monster evade is ((1.4x AGL) + 5) x (100% + type_modifier), then Specter Lv13 in Ghost Ship (who has 100 for modifier and AGL of 9) will have evade rate of 34 (rounded down).  And if I used Angela and didn't raise AGL at all (AGL 2), then she'll have accuracy of 3.  So 34-3 = 31.  So she'll miss 31% of time?  I used her in Ghost Ship (killed off the rest of the teams to test her thoroughly), and she seemed to miss way more than 30% though.  Did I miscalculate something somewhere, or was I just unlucky?
No, that's on me, I overlooked one step there.

((1.4x AGL) + 5) x 1.5 x (100% + type_modifier), each step rounded down, so that ghost comes out to 50, then subtract your 3 accuracy and you get 47% misses.

For the player it is instead:
(1.4x AGL) + LUCK/2 + 5 + gear bonuses

Also I hate how L1 tech doesn't auto-hit but reuse the last hit status, so I can just miss 100 L1 techs in a row there >.>
really, the whole handling of the "is hit" flag being on the target and then also shared between all attackers just causes a ton of problems; I just don't have any RAM available to change that.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Messianic on November 07, 2021, 11:38:38 am
I’m of the opinion that 3x Luck is a good %chance of denial.

Hawkeye gets a max of 66% where others would cap out at like 51%.

Perhaps if early game feels too countery and late game not, maybe give a class penalty or something:

(9 / class lv) + (LCK x 3) = denial %

So early game Duran with say 6 LCK has 27%  counter denial while if late game had the same amount of LCK it would be 21%, however he caps out at 54%.

At any rate I think no counter should go beyond 2/3 chance of denial or boss fights are going to be pathetic.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Zimgief on November 07, 2021, 12:17:45 pm
Hi!
I'm so happy that praetarius5018 is working again on the bugfix patch, and that people are so eager to help! SD3 needs it so badly, being so great, yet.. so bugged!

The highlights for me are:
- the evade bonus as intended, especially for shields and Hawks
- making luck more relevant
- instant casting for spells (used to never use casters because melee was so much more effective).

What can be improved:
- a proper balance of counters. The player should never feel detered from using high level spells and techniques, and late bosses should be able to use their impressive counters. But spellcasters should not become too strong now that they insta-cast spells. We should test and test the game again until spellcasting feels right. (Could the level of the ennemy be part of the formula?)
- a proper balance of evasion. Clearly, the developers entered random values for evade modifiers as they dumped the mechanic during development. Enemies could be attributed a default evade modifier, then cases should be worked individually to make sense (high modifier for ninjas, low modifier for mages, etc.). Even if it's basic (most ennemies with 0, some with -50, others with +50).

Thoughts:
- Transshape with a duration of x + LUCK (or LUCK /2 or whatever)instead of fixed or minus LUCK?

Thanks again for the work. SK3 is one of my favourite games. :)
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 07, 2021, 12:53:04 pm
(9 / class lv) + (LCK x 3) = denial %
that would make class changing detrimental, at least until you've put in 1-2 points of luck and lets be honest: 99% of characters have more important stats.


But spellcasters should not become too strong now that they insta-cast spells. We should test and test the game again until spellcasting feels right. (Could the level of the ennemy be part of the formula?)
I have access to basically all values of both the player/caster and monster/target there.

If the power level of casters is the topic, it should rather find different ways to address that instead of disabling the AI.
Also not all monster have a counter and for random mobs... stone cloud and death spell/turn undead make it so there is noone left to counter.

on another sad note... I accidently found my old notes on wtf I had to do to fix casttime... fml


- a proper balance of evasion. Clearly, the developers entered random values for evade modifiers as they dumped the mechanic during development. Enemies could be attributed a default evade modifier, then cases should be worked individually to make sense (high modifier for ninjas, low modifier for mages, etc.). Even if it's basic (most ennemies with default modifier), it should at least make sense!
default modifier would be an increase for 90% of monsters; most have just a fraction of the base value.

base at max level would be around ((20AGL x1.4)+5)x1.5=47
I think I'll work with just 4 modifiers:
-100% for stuff that should be easy to hit (bulettes, golems)
-30% as default = 33 evade at max, so 22 AGL hawk would never miss here, all other need speed up to meet 100% hitrate
0% for e.g. ninjas and birds
100% for ghosts and devils


Thoughts:
- Transshape with a duration of x + LUCK (or LUCK /2 or whatever)instead of fixed or minus LUCK
there are several problems there:
-the value is shared with sleep duration and I can't separate them
-there's no reference to the caster of the original spell anymore, I have only access to the stats of the victim of those 2 effects
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Messianic on November 07, 2021, 02:35:58 pm
How about a base of 6 and then 2x LCK?

Hawkeye caps at 50%.

Is there any way to differentiate between regular enemies and bosses when it comes to reducing rates of countering? The game’s real problem is regular enemies wiping your team like Wolf Devils, Night Blades, etc. I expect bosses to react harshly to what I do.


On a separate note. Is there a way to tweak regular enemy base stats? It has always seemed to me that it make sense to give enemies the stats of the player classes they are meant to mimic, like Porobon = Ranger, green Porobon = Rogue or Wander (unsure which is which), Porobon Leader = the other. So for example the regular Porobon would have 9/12/9/9/9/12 for stats to calculate evasion and all that other stuff off of instead of everyone being based off Reisz. Bee Ladies would be based on Reisz’s light classes, beast men based on Kevin’s classes (though a few seems to not be represented at all), etc.

I hope this makes sense.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 07, 2021, 03:07:29 pm
Is there any way to differentiate between regular enemies and bosses when it comes to reducing rates of countering? The game’s real problem is regular enemies wiping your team like Wolf Devils, Night Blades, etc. I expect bosses to react harshly to what I do.
That I can; but the mentioned enemies are not using the L3 tech (only) as counters but whenever they feel like it.


On a separate note. Is there a way to tweak regular enemy base stats? It has always seemed to me that it make sense to give enemies the stats of the player classes they are meant to mimic, like Porobon = Ranger, green Porobon = Rogue or Wander (unsure which is which), Porobon Leader = the other. So for example the regular Porobon would have 9/12/9/9/9/12 for stats to calculate evasion and all that other stuff off of instead of everyone being based off Reisz. Bee Ladies would be based on Reisz’s light classes, beast men based on Kevin’s classes (though a few seems to not be represented at all), etc.
That can be done as Koren and Heath show but that would change way too much since that also influences atk, def, hp, ...
I'd rather let those be here so e.g. evasion and crit rate is more predictable.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Zimgief on November 07, 2021, 03:50:32 pm
Quote
default modifier would be an increase for 90% of monsters; most have just a fraction of the base value.

base at max level would be around ((20AGL x1.4)+5)x1.5=47
I think I'll work with just 4 modifiers:
-100% for stuff that should be easy to hit (bulettes, golems)
-30% as default = 33 evade at max, so 22 AGL hawk would never miss here, all other need speed up to meet 100% hitrate
0% for e.g. ninjas and birds
100% for ghosts and devils
This is easy to intuit for the player, and  effective.  :woot!:

Counter Magic
Quote from: hmsong
Just a minor bug report regarding Counter Magic (vanilla, and probably still applicable for your patch) -- whenever an enemy uses Counter Magic (Gildervine, Mispolm), they reflect Air, Fire, and Water magic, but not Earth, Light, Dark, and Tree magic.  Counter Magic works as intended (reflects all elements) when the player uses it though.  I'm not sure why that's the case, since Gildervine is only immune to Tree magic, so elemental weakness/strength doesn't seem to have anything to do with it.
I understand it is not a bug, but the implementation the developers opted for doesn't make a lot of sense, alas. It is not symetrical with the player's spell nor it is coherent with what one would expect. It's minor, but it's a lack of consistency from a gameplay perspective.

Deny enemy counter moves
If I understand correctly, there are two problems here :
- early enemies will counter more often than later enemies, so even without actively increasing luck, the game will become easier
- the cancellation's rate by the end of the game is too high (especially now with instant spell-casting).

I feel that adding a character modifier is a bit arbitrary (inelegant). Enemies's LUCK may need to be attributed new values to be included in the formula (I don't know, but maybe some boss relies on counters, yet has a bad luck).

I was thinking of this, if that helps: player's LUCK / (20 + Handicap), the handicap being 10 for class 2 enemies, and 20 for class 3 enemies.

For ex.
- base Duran vs early enemy: 2 / 20 = 10%
- base Hawk vs early enemy: 6 / 20 = 30%
=> Better chances than in current patch in early game.
- max LUCK Duran vs late enemy: 15 / (20 + 20) = 37.50%
- max LUCK Hawk vs late enemy: 22 / (20 + 20) = 55%
=> Lesser chances than in current patch in late game.

A further handicap against bosses is an interesting tool, if necessary.

Instant spell casting
According to Red Soul, instant spell casting is too strong right now (will a new formula for counter-cancel help?).
Yet, instant spell casting seems the best solution:
- to improve magic characters, who are too weak compared to melee characters in the base game
- for consistency, as the exploit for instant casting cannot be fixed.

So, instant spell casting is a good start but needs to be balanced (like were critical hits) in the optional patch:
- apply a malus to damage for players' spells?
- increase their mp cost?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 07, 2021, 04:13:20 pm
Counter MagicI understand it is not a bug, but the implementation the developers opted for doesn't make a lot of sense, alas. It is not symetrical with the player's spell nor it is coherent with what one would expect. It's minor, but it's a lack of consistency from a gameplay perspective.
This only affects the 2 plant bosses; maybe they wanted to prevent player frustration in case mispolm is taken late and angela has death spell and/or stone cloud ready?


I was thinking of this, if that helps: player's LUCK / (20 + Handicap), the handicap being 10 for class 2 enemies, and 20 for class 3 enemies.
could just boil it then down to:
player's luck / (20+enemy's luck)

imo better than the stair effect you get from having 13 luck vs a level 19 target = 65% safe and then going to the next screen and only getting 42% vs the level 20s there


- for consistency, as the exploit for instant casting cannot be fixed.
on another sad note... I accidently found my old notes on wtf I had to do to fix casttime... fml


So, instant spell casting is a good start but needs to be balanced (like were critical hits) in the optional patch:
- apply a malus to damage for players' spells?
- increase their mp cost?
instant cast is a separate patch and its own sack of issues.
if it wasn't too much of a change compared to the base game you could make spells instant cast by using 4 tech points.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 07, 2021, 06:20:08 pm
@praetarius5018

You mentioned that enemy's AGL maxes out at 20, but given that most enemies' stats are based off Lise, the AGL will max out at 19.  Also, for current patch, how is Speed Up/Down affect Eva?  I'm guessing it's +/-20%, but where does the multiplier apply?  I assume it's all the way at the end, but just like other stat up spells, I have a feeling that may not be the case.  I'm guessing your +10/-15 Acc applies at the end.

I'm having a little trouble with Eva, because many enemies at the beginning have too high Eva if I try to apply something general.

base at max level would be around ((20AGL x1.4)+5)x1.5=47
I think I'll work with just 4 modifiers:
-100% for stuff that should be easy to hit (bulettes, golems)
-30% as default = 33 evade at max, so 22 AGL hawk would never miss here, all other need speed up to meet 100% hitrate
0% for e.g. ninjas and birds
100% for ghosts and devils

Should I just leave the Eva thing with you?  I'm working on this (dungeon by dungeon), but you seem to have some idea what to do.  I don't think devils should have 100% Eva though.

Also, a suggestion to add to your next bugfix.  In Hawk/Lise scenario, after getting the Mana Sword stolen, but before using Wind Drum (to fight the Godbeasts), if you go inside the Navarre (anywhere) and use the Magic Rope, the game crashes.  There are also few rooms in Dark Castle where players can softlock themselves if Magic Rope is used.  I fixed these issues on Better Monsters by disabling all the Magic Rope in those places, but I felt that your patch should have that too (Beast Kingdom and Altena didn't have Magic Rope enabled, so I never understood why that was the case for Navarre, not to mention that outside Navarre, you can use both Wind Drum and Magic Rope, which was weird).
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 07, 2021, 09:00:50 pm
Also, a suggestion to add to your next bugfix.  In Hawk/Lise scenario, after getting the Mana Sword stolen, but before using Wind Drum (to fight the Godbeasts), if you go inside the Navarre (anywhere) and use the Magic Rope, the game crashes.  There are also few rooms in Dark Castle where players can softlock themselves if Magic Rope is used.  I fixed these issues on Better Monsters by disabling all the Magic Rope in those places, but I felt that your patch should have that too (Beast Kingdom and Altena didn't have Magic Rope enabled, so I never understood why that was the case for Navarre, not to mention that outside Navarre, you can use both Wind Drum and Magic Rope, which was weird).

It seems to me the crashes occur due to the rope teleporting the player to the wrong screen?
If that's the case, maybe something like Map Jester can fix the teleport destinations.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 07, 2021, 09:12:17 pm
It seems to me the crashes occur due to the rope teleporting the player to the wrong screen?
If that's the case, maybe something like Map Jester can fix the teleport destinations.

I could do that, but I felt that Navarre shouldn't have Magic Rope enabled.  No other kingdoms had Magic Rope enabled, not to mention Navarre outside had both Magic Rope and Wind Drum enabled, which was weird.  And as for Dark Castle, that was a somewhat known problem.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 07, 2021, 09:52:05 pm
I could do that, but I felt that Navarre shouldn't have Magic Rope enabled.  No other kingdoms had Magic Rope enabled, not to mention Navarre outside had both Magic Rope and Wind Drum enabled, which was weird.  And as for Dark Castle, that was a somewhat known problem.

Yeah magic rope outside doesn't make much sense, but I think there's nothing wrong with being able to use an escape rope should the need arise - always possible to bite more than one can chew.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Zimgief on November 08, 2021, 04:10:49 am
Quote
if it wasn't too much of a change compared to the base game you could make spells instant cast by using 4 tech points.
Interesting!
By forcing to go melee to fill the gauge, it goes a bit against the trope of squishy mages, but it would indeed balance the instant casting.
Do you think applying a damage malus to player's spells is enough ? (Again, only in the optional patch of course.)

Quote
player's luck / (20+enemy's luck)

imo better than the stair effect you get from having 13 luck vs a level 19 target = 65% safe and then going to the next screen and only getting 42% vs the level 20s there
If max luck for enemies is 16, and not every final boss has max luck, it may still be too strong. (Hawk with 22 luck: 61% to deny counter, or more.)
Maybe player's luck / (20 + (enemy's level / 2)), which avoids stair effect ?
Against level 50 final bosses, Hawk has 48% chances. 37% Duran.
An important note: it helps keeping Black Rabbite a menace, due to its lvl 99 (Hawk has 31% chances, Duran 24%).

The gap between 17 and 22 luck is not as important as in the original formula of the patch (a gap of 11% instead of 23% against final bosses), but as luck now favours critical hit chances AND critical damage thanks to you (plus trap desactivation), is the stat valuable enough after nerfing deny counters? (I think so.)
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 08, 2021, 12:40:58 pm
You mentioned that enemy's AGL maxes out at 20, but given that most enemies' stats are based off Lise, the AGL will max out at 19.  Also, for current patch, how is Speed Up/Down affect Eva?  I'm guessing it's +/-20%, but where does the multiplier apply?  I assume it's all the way at the end, but just like other stat up spells, I have a feeling that may not be the case.  I'm guessing your +10/-15 Acc applies at the end.
the speed up/down effects modify the raw stats.
for evade it is 1/3 of base, cap at 100. so 60% evade becomes 80%.


I'm having a little trouble with Eva, because many enemies at the beginning have too high Eva if I try to apply something general.
Where do you get that?
E.g. a 0% modifier for the intro ninjas would give them about 18 evade (5 agl x 1.4 + 5) x 1.5 and Hawk has 6 agl so 9 acc, so 9% miss rate.
Or what am I missing?


Should I just leave the Eva thing with you?  I'm working on this (dungeon by dungeon), but you seem to have some idea what to do.  I don't think devils should have 100% Eva though.
I was thinking along the lines of devils typically being not easily affected by regular weapons; you'd need some special magic weapons or magical buffs; and a high evade rate is the next best stand-in for that.



Also, a suggestion to add to your next bugfix.
Do you have a list of the values that would need to be changed there?


Interesting!
By forcing to go melee to fill the gauge, it goes a bit against the trope of squishy mages, but it would indeed balance the instant casting.
Do you think applying a damage malus to player's spells is enough ? (Again, only in the optional patch of course.)
I'd rather focus on what would need to be done to bring magic up a bit if I were to fix cast time.

But for the insta cast version - a damage penalty wouldn't change much since you can still use all other spells at full power; healing, aura wave into L3 techs for basically unnerfed spell damage or just death spell, turn undead and stone cloud that care little about the actual damage value.


If max luck for enemies is 16, and not every final boss has max luck, it may still be too strong. (Hawk with 22 luck: 61% to deny counter, or more.)
Maybe player's luck / (20 + (enemy's level / 2)), which avoids stair effect ?
I'm fine with that.


The gap between 17 and 22 luck is not as important as in the original formula of the patch (a gap of 11% instead of 23% against final bosses), but as luck now favours critical hit chances AND critical damage thanks to you (plus trap desactivation), is the stat valuable enough after nerfing deny counters? (I think so.)
Sounds to me like the stat finally works like luck does in a lot of games: no single big/primary effect but a hundred small/secondary ones.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Zimgief on November 08, 2021, 02:14:57 pm
Quote
I'd rather focus on what would need to be done to bring magic up a bit if I were to fix cast time.
Indeed, that is a better mind set! (Going for what is intented, but implemented better.)

Quote
Sounds to me like the stat finally works like luck does in a lot of games: no single big/primary effect but a hundred small/secondary ones.
I'm glad I helped!
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 08, 2021, 05:57:47 pm
the speed up/down effects modify the raw stats.
for evade it is 1/3 of base, cap at 100. so 60% evade becomes 80%.

So assuming Speed Up is applied, for monster Evade, it's: [AGL * 1.4 + 5] * 1.5 * [100% + modifier] * 1.33.
And for char Acc, it's: [AGL * 1.5] + 10.

Do I have that right?

Where do you get that?
E.g. a 0% modifier for the intro ninjas would give them about 18 evade (5 agl x 1.4 + 5) x 1.5 and Hawk has 6 agl so 9 acc, so 9% miss rate.
Or what am I missing?

Crap!  I did the math wrong.  I forgot to multiply the char Acc by 1.5.  Whoops.

Btw, what's your end goal for "Accuracy miss"?  ~10%?  I started with 5~10% for Duran (before correcting my math error), but I don't know what's a good number.

I was thinking along the lines of devils typically being not easily affected by regular weapons; you'd need some special magic weapons or magical buffs; and a high evade rate is the next best stand-in for that.

I can see ghosts being that case, but I'm not seeing, "devils typically being not easily affected by regular weapons".  When I imagine demons, I typically think "monsters with gargoyle features that can breath fire".  But that might be my bias.

Do you have a list of the values that would need to be changed there?

This is from the ZPS I used (I used an old version of SoM Turbo ZPS to sort of save me the trouble of editing things).  I'm sure you can understand that nevertheless, given that you do way more hacking that I do:

Code: [Select]
@OFF $CB74EF 'Dark Castle, softlock - map 27
RAW 00 ' -Magical Rope
@OFF $CB74F9 'Dark Castle, softlock - map 28
RAW 00 ' -Magical Rope

@OFF $CB7F99 'Navarre, outside - map 300
RAW 84 ' -Magical Rope
@OFF $CB7FA3 'Navarre - map 301
RAW 00 ' -Magical Rope
@OFF $CB7FAD 'Navarre - map 302
RAW 00 ' -Magical Rope
@OFF $CB7FB7 'Navarre - map 303
RAW 00 ' -Magical Rope
@OFF $CB7FC1 'Navarre, treasure room - map 304
RAW 00 ' -Magical Rope
@OFF $CB7FCB 'Navarre - map 305
RAW 00 ' -Magical Rope
@OFF $CB7FD5 'Navarre - map 306
RAW 00 ' -Magical Rope
@OFF $CB7FDF 'Navarre - map 307
RAW 00 ' -Magical Rope
@OFF $CB7FE9 'Navarre - map 308
RAW 00 ' -Magical Rope
@OFF $CB7FF3 'Navarre, throne room - map 309
RAW 00 ' -Magical Rope
@OFF $CB7FFD 'Navarre - map 310
RAW 00 ' -Magical Rope
@OFF $CB8007 'Navarre - map 311
RAW 00 ' -Magical Rope
@OFF $CB8011 'Navarre - map 312
RAW 00 ' -Magical Rope
@OFF $CB801B 'Navarre - map 313
RAW 00 ' -Magical Rope
@OFF $CB802F 'Navarre - map 315
RAW 00 ' -Magical Rope
@OFF $CB8039 'Navarre - map 316
RAW 00 ' -Magical Rope
@OFF $CB8043 'Navarre - map 317
RAW 00 ' -Magical Rope
@OFF $CB8075 'Navarre, cave - map 322
RAW 00 ' -Magical Rope
@OFF $CB807F 'Navarre, cave - map 323
RAW 00 ' -Magical Rope
@OFF $CB8089 'Navarre, cave - map 324
RAW 00 ' -Magical Rope
@OFF $CB8093 'Navarre, cave - map 325
RAW 00 ' -Magical Rope
@OFF $CB8499 'Navarre - map 428
RAW 00 ' -Magical Rope
@OFF $CB84A3 'Navarre - map 429
RAW 00 ' -Magical Rope
@OFF $CB84AD 'Navarre - map 430
RAW 00 ' -Magical Rope
@OFF $CB84B7 'Navarre - map 431
RAW 00 ' -Magical Rope
@OFF $CB865B 'Navarre, outside - map 473
RAW 84 ' -Magical Rope

@OFF $CB908D 'Dark Castle, softlock - map 734
RAW 00 ' -Magical Rope
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Messianic on November 08, 2021, 08:55:08 pm
Noticing a really terrible side effect of the skill counter denial:

Many bosses are not transforming as they should be. Bill and Ben not splitting into two, Gildervine not transforming into his more vicious form, and most notably the Dark Majesty not changing into his more demonic form.

If there is a way to make these transformations NOT AT ALL effected by counter denial that would be ideal as that is pretty game-breaking imo.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 08, 2021, 09:01:27 pm
Is No Skill Counter separate from Class Balance? if it is not, then something is afoot, because I've been having none of these side effects.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Messianic on November 08, 2021, 09:11:27 pm
I am NOT playing with "No Skill Counter," but I am playing with Hawkeye with maxing out his Luck stat as much as possible, and that apparently is treating transformations as something the Luck/30 effect from praetorius' changes is effecting.

I am playing with English patch + praetorius' patch + hmsong's full balance patch (love the skill changes)
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 08, 2021, 09:14:44 pm
I am NOT playing with "No Skill Counter," but I am playing with Hawkeye with maxing out his Luck stat as much as possible, and that apparently is treating transformations as something the Luck/30 effect from praetorius' changes is effecting.

I am playing with English patch + praetorius' patch + hmsong's full balance patch (love the skill changes)

So you're saying your counter denial is coming solely from the luck stat?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Messianic on November 08, 2021, 09:23:22 pm
So you're saying your counter denial is coming solely from the luck stat?

Yes, I got to Dark Majesty at lv 46, and had Hawkeye at 22 LCK, Reisz at 17, and Duran at 15, for an example of a boss not changing forms at a certain HP threshold as they should.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 08, 2021, 09:25:59 pm
Yes, I got to Dark Majesty at lv 46, and had Hawkeye at 22 LCK, Reisz at 17, and Duran at 15, for an example of a boss not changing forms at a certain HP threshold as they should.

I'm starting to think Square disabled stuff because they knew the code was more messy than a piranha feeding frenzy.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 08, 2021, 09:29:07 pm
Is No Skill Counter separate from Class Balance? if it is not, then something is afoot, because I've been having none of these side effects.

"Separate" from Class Balance?  No.  No Skill Counter is a part of the package deal with Class Balance.  I think the question you were trying to ask was if Class Balance + No Skill Balance removes the effect of bugfix's Luck Denies Counter, in which case, the answer is Yes.

I specifically made +No Skill Counter in a way that removes the bugfix's Luck Denies Counter (assuming +No Skill Counter was applied after the bugfix patch).  You said you wanted to use No Skill Counter, and soul_knight said that having both is too crippling for enemies, hence I made it that way -- that way, you can pick and choose, sort of.  Having said that, as stated in the attached document, you can still have both Luck Denies Counter and No Skill Counter (having both is not recommended though), if you apply the bugfix patch after +No Skill Counter.

I can't speak too much about Luck Denies Counter, because I haven't really experimented with it (the time I experimented with the game, I used v1.2, which did not have Luck Denies Counter).

I'm starting to think Square disabled stuff because they knew the code was more messy than a piranha feeding frenzy.

That's unlikely, because there's so many problems with this game.  Not crippling bad, but still present.  I just think they didn't put too much thoughts, and they didn't have enough beta testers.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Messianic on November 08, 2021, 09:53:02 pm
"Separate" from Class Balance?  No.  No Skill Counter is a part of the package deal with Class Balance.  I think the question you were trying to ask was if Class Balance + No Skill Balance removes the effect of bugfix's Luck Denies Counter, in which case, the answer is Yes.

I think what is being asked is since you made "No Skill Counter" a separate deal that is now optional, was I playing with it enabled, and the answer is that I am not. "Class Balance 2.6 Bundle" is what I am using, NOT "Class Bundle 2.6 +No Skill Counter"

The heart of the matter is whether or not praetorius is able to still have a functional Luck Denial while making sure enemy transformations (and even counter-attacks if necessary) can be unaffected by it if they are based on an enemy being at a certain HP threshold instead of countering a lv2/3 tech or magic.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 08, 2021, 09:55:31 pm
"Separate" from Class Balance?  No.  No Skill Counter is a part of the package deal with Class Balance.  I think the question you were trying to ask was if Class Balance + No Skill Balance removes the effect of bugfix's Luck Denies Counter, in which case, the answer is Yes.

I specifically made +No Skill Counter in a way that removes the bugfix's Luck Denies Counter (assuming +No Skill Counter was applied after the bugfix patch).  You said you wanted to use No Skill Counter, and soul_knight said that having both is too crippling for enemies, hence I made it that way -- that way, you can pick and choose, sort of.  Having said that, as stated in the attached document, you can still have both Luck Denies Counter and No Skill Counter (having both is not recommended though), if you apply the bugfix patch after +No Skill Counter.

I guess that explains why I haven't had any issues. I applied the bugfix first, and then went through the usual ordering.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on November 09, 2021, 02:52:01 am
@praetarius5018, @hmsong

Based on what was said in the first post, Anti Magic can neutralize enemy's absorb and reflect, but not immune, resist, and weak.  Why would that be the case?  I feel that Anti Magic can use a bit more "boost".  I mean, it's the very magic that neutralized Mana Sword itself.  It should be able to neutralize everything.  Can you make it so that it neutralizes all things related to elements, including weakness? (that way, it has both pros and cons).
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 09, 2021, 03:01:08 am
@praetarius5018, @hmsong

Based on what was said in the first post, Anti Magic can neutralize enemy's absorb and reflect, but not immune, resist, and weak.  Why would that be the case?  I feel that Anti Magic can use a bit more "boost".  I mean, it's the very magic that neutralized Mana Sword itself.  It should be able to neutralize everything.  Can you make it so that it neutralizes all things related to elements, including weakness? (that way, it has both pros and cons).

I guess if it becomes this powerful, it's bound to see a noticeable increase in cost, MP wise.

As for neutralizing the Sword of Mana, I think they just recycled whatever animation they saw as the most appropriate. Hard to be sure if the intention was depicting Anti-Magic in fact. I mean Darkshine Knight does this to Jinn to summon Tsenker - if that were anti-magic where would the knight get mana from to summon that thing?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 09, 2021, 07:39:59 am
@praetarius5018, @hmsong

Based on what was said in the first post, Anti Magic can neutralize enemy's absorb and reflect, but not immune, resist, and weak.  Why would that be the case?  I feel that Anti Magic can use a bit more "boost".  I mean, it's the very magic that neutralized Mana Sword itself.  It should be able to neutralize everything.  Can you make it so that it neutralizes all things related to elements, including weakness? (that way, it has both pros and cons).

That's beyond my ability.  Things related to mechanics (such as changing the mechanics of how AntiMagic works) is something that's way above my level of understanding.  It's an interesting idea though, so perhaps praetarius5018 can help.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 09, 2021, 02:18:37 pm
So assuming Speed Up is applied, for monster Evade, it's: [AGL * 1.4 + 5] * 1.5 * [100% + modifier] * 1.33.
And for char Acc, it's: [AGL * 1.5] + 10.

Do I have that right?
Looks right to me.


Btw, what's your end goal for "Accuracy miss"?  ~10%?  I started with 5~10% for Duran (before correcting my math error), but I don't know what's a good number.
I think up to 10% at the start is ok and for endgame I'd fine with up to 30% for "ninjas" since you can (theoretically) apply speed up and down by that point. 30% with around 20-25 accuracy would mean ~55% base evade so speed down would cut 17% off => 35~40% before accuracy, 15~20% after, add speed up and we're below 10%.


This is from the ZPS I used (I used an old version of SoM Turbo ZPS to sort of save me the trouble of editing things).  I'm sure you can understand that nevertheless, given that you do way more hacking that I do:
ZPS?

That list looks a bit too easy even.
Luckily SD3 is hirom so CB:74EF -> B74EF in hex editor.
For SNES only:
you take such a 6 digit address, and translate it as such:
SNES address -> hex address
Cxxxxx -> 0xxxxx
Dxxxxx -> 1xxxxx
Exxxxx -> 2xxxxx
Fxxxxx -> 3xxxxx
4xxxxx -> 4xxxxx
5xxxxx -> 5xxxxx

Pardon the pun, but my personal Metroid Dread is going back to the LoRom addressing in Super Metroid >.>



Noticing a really terrible side effect of the skill counter denial:

Many bosses are not transforming as they should be. Bill and Ben not splitting into two, Gildervine not transforming into his more vicious form, and most notably the Dark Majesty not changing into his more demonic form.

If there is a way to make these transformations NOT AT ALL effected by counter denial that would be ideal as that is pretty game-breaking imo.
I can fix that for my patch, but I'd need to know what hmsong has done for his no counter patch as that would determine if he has to change anything and if yes, what.


Based on what was said in the first post, Anti Magic can neutralize enemy's absorb and reflect, but not immune, resist, and weak.  Why would that be the case?  I feel that Anti Magic can use a bit more "boost".  I mean, it's the very magic that neutralized Mana Sword itself.  It should be able to neutralize everything.  Can you make it so that it neutralizes all things related to elements, including weakness? (that way, it has both pros and cons).
repel, drain, saber, buffs, debuffs, tech points, ...
I guess it was only supposed to cancel the anti magic buff and they had no way to differentiate it from natural repel from... boulders? who had that again?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 09, 2021, 03:47:23 pm
Looks right to me.
ZPS?

If memory serves that's a special format that a custom multi-patcher for Secret of Mana uses. One can use it to cherry pick (to an extent) features from Secret of Mana Turbo - a huge overhaul of the game composed of many patches. ZPS brings it all under a common umbrella to make application and customization simpler to the end user.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 09, 2021, 06:46:05 pm
That list looks a bit too easy even.
Luckily SD3 is hirom so CB:74EF -> B74EF in hex editor.
For SNES only:
you take such a 6 digit address, and translate it as such:
SNES address -> hex address
Cxxxxx -> 0xxxxx
Dxxxxx -> 1xxxxx
Exxxxx -> 2xxxxx
Fxxxxx -> 3xxxxx
4xxxxx -> 4xxxxx
5xxxxx -> 5xxxxx

Pardon the pun, but my personal Metroid Dread is going back to the LoRom addressing in Super Metroid >.>

Yeah, just subtract $C00000 to get it for hex editor.  I forgot to mention that, but as expected, you got it.  Also, I don't know what that last sentence was.  Maybe something is being lost due to English being my 2nd language.  I know that pun means something like, "play on words", but I don't get it :P.  Then again, I'm not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed.

I can fix that for my patch, but I'd need to know what hmsong has done for his no counter patch as that would determine if he has to change anything and if yes, what.

It's probably what you expected.  3 bytes from 10C62B, and 3 bytes from 10C6CC (changing back to vanilla values) -- exactly as you taught me.  Obviously, I'm willing to change all that (well, more likely just remove them, which I already did in one of the Balance variants).  I certainly would like the enemies to keep their "use skills if HP gets below certain point" thing, at least for the bosses, but also like to have Luck Denies Counter (that way, I may get to see bosses like Black Rabite summoning the awesome Lv99 Great Demons -- No Skill Counter makes that impossible).  As Messianic said, some of those define bosses, like Bill/Ben splitting and using Shadow Dive, and Lugar transforming twice (and using the Lv2/3 techs), and Gildervine and Dark Prince transforming, and Black Rabite using the spell combo and Ancient, and etc etc etc.

repel, drain, saber, buffs, debuffs, tech points, ...
I guess it was only supposed to cancel the anti magic buff and they had no way to differentiate it from natural repel from... boulders? who had that again?

That's Power Boulder.  Also, I think AntiMagic was supposed to remove at least the natural absorb/reflect.  Otherwise, Black Rabite would be almost impossible to beat, since you can't neutralize his dark absorb -- if you don't have kevin or hawk (who are not necessary characters for the necessary Duran/Angela scenario), he's pretty much impossible to beat without AntiMagic (Specter's Eye), because he'll just keep recovering his HP, and then spam his spell combo.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 09, 2021, 06:53:41 pm
Is it possible to change or add properties to Angela's staves?
The fact they grant attack increases is pretty useless, to be honestl

if they enhanced her magic, it would be a much better incentive to waste heaps of gold on them.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 09, 2021, 07:46:05 pm
Is it possible to change or add properties to Angela's staves?
The fact they grant attack increases is pretty useless, to be honestl

if they enhanced her magic, it would be a much better incentive to waste heaps of gold on them.

I think that's a little too far for "bugfix + minor mechanic balance change".  There's a hack called Sin of Mana (by none other than praetarius5018) for that.  That hack has lots of things of your interest, such as staves that shoot fireballs and stuff.  I put a link to that in all my documents.

Also, the Angela/Carlie weapons are cheaper than Duran/Kevin weapons.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Zimgief on November 09, 2021, 09:30:50 pm
Is skippable_spell_animation.ips from Sin of Mana (which looks very cool by the way, as a heavier mod of the game) compatible with SD3 Bugfix Edition? Long animations are also a reason why I tended to use melee characters. (Even in a game like Final Fantasy VII, I avoid invocations because they take too muck of my time, despite the fact they can be more effective. x) )
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 09, 2021, 09:59:39 pm
Also, the Angela/Carlie weapons are cheaper than Duran/Kevin weapons.

Yes indeed, but still a waste of Lucre for what they bring to the table.

Edit: Left a nice review to the latest version of your patch set, HMSong. You deserve it!
I'm now facing the God Beasts (4 left). Using the best gear available, Hawk's damage has fallen off slightly from Duran's (10 points less on average), but they are still on the same ballpark. I'll take note again when stats are maxed out.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 10, 2021, 12:57:53 pm
Also, I don't know what that last sentence was.  Maybe something is being lost due to English being my 2nd language.  I know that pun means something like, "play on words", but I don't get it :P.  Then again, I'm not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed.
sigh, explaining a joke ruins it but here I go:
SD3 uses HiRom, so the addressing is easy: just subtract Cxxxxx if it starts with C-F.
Super Metroid is LoRom, addressing there is messy, like you get A08BE0 for 100BE0 and several addresses being illegal; e.g. for xxYxxx if Y is less than 8 that is not allowed but half the emulators silently fix it; e.g. if I wrote A00BE0 it may just treat it as A08BE0 while others go to a nonsensical area of all 0s.
And no matter how often I look the logic behind that up I can never wrap my head around it.
So I kinda dread going back to that mess from the comfort that is HiRom addressing of my metroid hack, not be confused with Metroid Dread which released recently.

Ok, joke is now dead, funeral at saturday.


It's probably what you expected.  3 bytes from 10C62B, and 3 bytes from 10C6CC (changing back to vanilla values) -- exactly as you taught me.  Obviously, I'm willing to change all that (well, more likely just remove them, which I already did in one of the Balance variants).
undo those and instead change 10C629 from F0 to 80.
at least arch demon still transformed with that.


Also, I think AntiMagic was supposed to remove at least the natural absorb/reflect.  Otherwise, Black Rabite would be almost impossible to beat, since you can't neutralize his dark absorb -- if you don't have kevin or hawk (who are not necessary characters for the necessary Duran/Angela scenario), he's pretty much impossible to beat without AntiMagic (Specter's Eye), because he'll just keep recovering his HP, and then spam his spell combo.
Could be.
Should I just add removal to regular resistance (which more used than immunity) to anti-magic? I don't think this would change balance much since weapons and the majority of the strongest spells are neutral anyway.


Is it possible to change or add properties to Angela's staves?
The fact they grant attack increases is pretty useless, to be honestl

if they enhanced her magic, it would be a much better incentive to waste heaps of gold on them.
I'm not entirely opposed to this.

first staff: x2+10
desert area staff: x8+18
best staff (D/D): x15+28
L1 spells: x6+10
L2 spells: x8+15
L3 spells: x10+20

We could modify the spell values with a portion of the weapons value (and subtract a base to make it not too OP), like:
spell (and monster keep it as is):
x(weapon factor / 4 + spell factor - 2)+(weapon base/2+spell base - 9)
this would cut even around the desert area and for endgame you'd almost move up one spell tier;

L1 spell with first staff: x4.5+6
L1 spell with desert staff: x6+10
L1 spell with endgame staff: x7.75+15
L2 spell with endgame staff: x9.75+20
L3 spell with endgame staff: x11.75+25

Considering we plan 2 nerfs to casting with cast time fix and reduced counter denial this sounds not unwarranted to me.


Is skippable_spell_animation.ips from Sin of Mana (which looks very cool by the way, as a heavier mod of the game) compatible with SD3 Bugfix Edition?
As it currently is: no.


I'm now facing the God Beasts (4 left). Using the best gear available, Hawk's damage has fallen off slightly from Duran's (10 points less on average), but they are still on the same ballpark. I'll take note again when stats are maxed out.
For those comparisons it'd be nice to know where you are level wise compared to the enemies.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 10, 2021, 02:54:16 pm
For those comparisons it'd be nice to know where you are level wise compared to the enemies.

True, true.
Party is Lv 29 and enemies are around lv 36 (Forest of Wonder).
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Zimgief on November 10, 2021, 04:07:14 pm
I don't know about Angela's staves increasing magic damage. Reasons against it:
- Carlie, which by default is not as good a DPS, will be comparatively even weaker
- staves would be the only weapon type to do that (exception to game rules)
- non-attacking spells would not benefit from the bonus (admittedly, not my strongest point, as INT do not boost them either)
- it IS useful to increase physical damage when saving MPs against trash mobs. The whole point of using the attack button with her would be lost.

So the idea is interesting for sure, but it changes a lot in game design without any real benefit. Buying weapons for Angela is not the highest priority, true, but in the game as it is, they serve their purpose anyway.

Note: maybe hmsong could include such a change in his patch if interested? As it focuses on rethinking classes in a more drastic way. :)
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 10, 2021, 04:48:14 pm
I'd like to offer a few counter-points to your counter-points, if I may:

- Carlie, which by default is not as good a DPS, will be comparatively even weaker

She isn't supposed to be good with DPS. Carlie is a support character even in her Dark-Dark branches (healing, sabering, summons);
she is a generalist (and very good at that) and isn't supposed to excel in any one area. Angela is the complete opposite, a pure offensive mage, her only role is doing damage, so if cast time gets fixed and counter tendencies get reworked, she might as well
do as much damage as possible before getting blasted herself.

- staves would be the only weapon type to do that (exception to game rules)

It's just an initial pitch, mind you. Maybe Carlie's flails could add some Spirit or something at some point, but I reiterate other characters don't need nearly as much help as Angela does to stay relevant (Carile has her niches - most of her spells are buffs, debuffs and sabers, for which damage doesn't matter).

- non-attacking spells would not benefit from the bonus (admittedly, not my strongest point, as INT do not boost them either)

If INT increased cast time, Angela would probably reach near-zero times just as if one had the insta-cast patch active.
In any case, most non-attack spells have rather negligible cast times (again, Carlie doesn't need nearly as much help as Angela does, in my opinion).

- it IS useful to increase physical damage when saving MPs against trash mobs. The whole point of using the attack button with her would be lost.


There was never a point to attacking physically with her. Her strength cap is low (as it should) and any real attacker would be done with the mobs on screen aeons before she would. She might as well not even have an attack button assigned.

So the idea is interesting for sure, but it changes a lot in game design without any real benefit. Buying weapons for Angela is not the highest priority, true, but in the game as it is, they serve their purpose anyway.

I disagree there wouldn't be a benefit. Again, this rationale comes from a situation with either A) Vanilla casting delays or B) Casting bug is fixed. Even with the double hitter balance, Angela wouldn't remain competitive damage wise (again, her ONLY role, unlike Carlie).

Note: maybe hmsong could include such a change in his patch if interested? As it focuses on rethinking classes in a more drastic way. :)

Yeah that could work, for sure. I'm not trying to be disrespectful or anything, so hopefully I'm not crossing lines here.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 10, 2021, 04:50:45 pm
I don't know about Angela's staves increasing magic damage. Reasons against it:
- Carlie, which by default is not as good a DPS, will be comparatively even weaker
- staves would be the only weapon type to do that (exception to game rules)
- non-attacking spells would not benefit from the bonus (admittedly, not my strongest point, as INT do not boost them either)
- it IS useful to increase physical damage when saving MPs against trash mobs. The whole point of using the attack button with her would be lost.

So the idea is interesting for sure, but it changes a lot in game design without any real benefit. Buying weapons for Angela is not the highest priority, true, but in the game as it is, they serve their purpose anyway.

Note: maybe hmsong could include such a change in his patch if interested? As it focuses on rethinking classes in a more drastic way. :)
If that is directed at me - it would be for all weapons or none.
Getting the multiplier and base atk of a given equipped weapon is easy, checking if the equipped weapon is a rod is an adventure and a half.

It would also affect heal light at least.

If you want something less extreme we could mod cast time based on the equipped weapons base power (again, assuming fixed cast time), either in addition or instead of the 30 frame reduction per class change.


True, true.
Party is Lv 29 and enemies are around lv 36 (Forest of Wonder).
And here's a design question: what is the correct level for a given area?
I'd say up to and including the desert/snowfield section you can keep up comfortably with the monster level, maybe 1 level behind for a short while, but after that you drop more and more behind. Tbh, the only reason I ever had Lv40+ in my playthroughs was because I grinded for the ??? seeds.



Other things to think about:
-the player has 2 magic defs, one that is not hinted at at all (PIE based); wouldn't it make more sense for the player to just use INT-m.def for all?


There was never a point to attacking physically with her. Her strength cap is low (as it should) and any real attacker would be done with the mobs on screen aeons before she would. She might as well not even have an attack button assigned.
To iterate how bad she has it:
even with max STR and her best weapon (240 atk) she can't break through the highest mob defense (245) unless she has either power up or uses a L1-3 tech.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 10, 2021, 05:09:00 pm
And here's a design question: what is the correct level for a given area?
I'd say up to and including the desert/snowfield section you can keep up comfortably with the monster level, maybe 1 level behind for a short while, but after that you drop more and more behind. Tbh, the only reason I ever had Lv40+ in my playthroughs was because I grinded for the ??? seeds.

It's the same case for me, I only "grind" to find the darned seeds. I'm using HMSong's shop patches (as well as class balance) in conjunction with bugfix (bugfix first), so I'm hoping this will alleviate that annoyance.

Other things to think about:
-the player has 2 magic defs, one that is not hinted at at all (PIE based); wouldn't it make more sense for the player to just use INT-m.def for all?

Yes, that is true, though I personally think PIE Mdef should affect Light and Dark magic damage taken, and maybe debuff likeihood
(although it's mostly my headcanon and I don't know if that's possible or even desirable as a balance point).

To iterate how bad she has it:
even with max STR and her best weapon (240 atk) she can't break through the highest mob defense (245) unless she has either power up or uses a L1-3 tech.

That's what I gleaned empirically, yes. Not exactly Donatello levels of staff oombat here.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: gamingcat02261991 on November 10, 2021, 05:21:41 pm
The one thing I never understood is why ROM-sharing sites that I won't mention never uploaded the recent localized version of the game like they never uploaded the limited-time localized version of the first Fire Emblem game outside of the digital Switch game format... There could've been a .sfc and a .fds, respectively, but no.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 10, 2021, 05:40:29 pm
The one thing I never understood is why ROM-sharing sites that I won't mention never uploaded the recent localized version of the game like they never uploaded the limited-time localized version of the first Fire Emblem game outside of the digital Switch game format... There could've been a .sfc and a .fds, respectively, but no.

It would instantly set them on Nintendo's sights for massive lawsuits. It's a gray area no matter how you slice it, but when you offer up the freshest, newest iteration of something, you're turning up the heat considerably. Not worth the risk.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Messianic on November 10, 2021, 06:01:34 pm
@praetorius

So this may be off topic, but I just couldn’t play through Sin of Mana much because of the death penalty, but I didn’t want to play on the super easy modes. I realized I had to turn off using tech for npc party members just to survive Full Metal Hugger. Is there any way you could separate the death penalty garbage from the rest of the hack? It gives no real purpose other than a massive FU to the player if they don’t perfectly nail a boss the first time, or even if a random crit takes them out. Honestly Angel Grail being over 1K is ludicrous too. Please cut their costs down to like 300 and make them resurrect you with 25% hp if you have to.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 10, 2021, 06:05:54 pm
@praetorius

So this may be off topic, but I just couldn’t play through Sin of Mana much because of the death penalty, but I didn’t want to play on the super easy modes. I realized I had to turn off using tech for npc party members just to survive Full Metal Hugger. Is there any way you could separate the death penalty garbage from the rest of the hack? It gives no real purpose other than a massive FU to the player if they don’t perfectly nail a boss the first time, or even if a random crit takes them out. Honestly Angel Grail being over 1K is ludicrous too. Please cut their costs down to like 300 and make them resurrect you with 25% hp if you have to.

I agree, the death penalty kept me from trying the harder modes as well. But then again, I'm not a glutton for punishment and near-vanilla levels of difficulty suit me just fine haha.

I guess Praetarius doesn't have a Sin of Mana thread here so he doesn't have to keep watching both here and NGPlus for feedback and suggestions.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Zimgief on November 10, 2021, 07:35:45 pm
Quote from: Red Soul
I'm not trying to be disrespectful or anything, so hopefully I'm not crossing lines here.
There is no reason to think that. :)

Ok, weapons for Angela really are worthless, after all. I understand the need of an incentive to buy her new staves.

The fact that changes apply to all weapons (swords, flails, etc.), doesn't make a lot of sense, flavourwise (ex. Duran's swords improving his healing abilities). I don't know if there is any satisfying answer here, but it's worth trying to find one!  ;D

Quote
Other things to think about:
-the player has 2 magic defs, one that is not hinted at at all (PIE based); wouldn't it make more sense for the player to just use INT-m.def for all?
Spirit is described as giving "defense of indirect magic" p.23 of the translated manual (http://www.kenoshaonline.com/sd3mnl.htm#SD3%20Manual). Is it what you are alluding to?
I suppose this magic defense helps the stat to be a bit more valuable for physical classes. Otherwise, it would changes nothing at all for them to get points in it (level-upping or changing class). So I think the game designers acutally did a good job on this stat in particular. :p
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Messianic on November 10, 2021, 07:49:12 pm
I like that some off the lesser-values stats like DEXterity, luck, and PIEty are getting more love in these hacks. Usually maxing out strength and CONstitution are no brained, and only putting points in other stuff when you can’t do those first 2, or to learn a certain skill.

Has anyone figured out how to hack the level up arrows so dexterity, constitution, and piety can have their 3 letters changed to AGI, VIT, and SPT? (I’d rather have the original stay names back but I don’t think anyone know how to text hack this anymore.)
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 10, 2021, 08:06:28 pm
@Red Soul

Thanks for the review.  I appreciate it.  Also, for your next playthrough, can you try out my Better Monster?  I put a lot of work on it, and I want to see how it stands to the opinions of other people.



@praetarius5018

Ohh.  So that's what you meant with the joke.  Heh.  I didn't know the difference between HiRom and LoRom.  I'm just using elementary hacking to do this, so I don't know what I'm doing for the most part.

Quote from: praetarius5018
undo those and instead change 10C629 from F0 to 80.
at least arch demon still transformed with that.

Will you put that in your next update?  Because if so, then it's exactly what some people here would want (they want Luck Denies Counter with signature enemy skill/transformation guaranteed).  One of my variants don't add No Skill Counter, or modify any mechanics, so I wouldn't have to do anything (not that I mind doing things).  On the other hand, it seems some people want No Skill Counter.  So I want people to choose what they want, among the available options.  So far, we have 1. Luck Denies Counter, 2. No Skill Counter, 3. Luck Denies Counter + No Skill Counter.  Assuming nobody picks #3 (that's just crippling), the main complaint about #1 is that it also denies boss-unique transformation.

Quote from: praetarius5018
Should I just add removal to regular resistance (which more used than immunity) to anti-magic? I don't think this would change balance much since weapons and the majority of the strongest spells are neutral anyway.

If you're gonna add removal to AntiMagic, then I personally prefer you remove everything, including the weakness and immunity.  That way, it's "fair" to the target that gets AntiMagiced -- loses all his elemental defense, but also loses his weakness.  Or is that too powerful or something?

Also, if possible, can you make it so that bosses' Counter Magic at least reflects Holy element?  I actually prefer it reflect all elements, but I assume the devs left holes in bosses' Counter Magic to ensure Angela isn't crippled against Counter Magic.  Anyways, I said Holy element, because I want Carlie D's summon spell to have something over Carlie L's Holy Ball.

Quote from: praetarius5018
Other things to think about:
-the player has 2 magic defs, one that is not hinted at at all (PIE based); wouldn't it make more sense for the player to just use INT-m.def for all?

When I first played the game, I thought INT was for M.Def (because I saw that INT affected M.Def in the stat screen), and PIE was for M.Atk.  And I thought Angela should only raise her PIE, because I wanted to increase her magic attack, and her Holy Ball reflected that.  Boy, was I wrong.  If you intend on changing the mechanics of M.Atk and M.Def, then I propose that INT is for M.Atk (since Angela has the highest INT stat), and PIE for M.Def (Carlie is already too powerful, so she can use a bit of nerf to her attack spells and heal light).  Hopefully, that change will reflect in the menu stat screen.  And if needed, I'm willing to create a different Balance hack, specifically that reflects the bugfix changes (ex: Holy Ball will use INT stat instead of PIE stat).



@Zimgief

I never experimented with weapons increasing INT.  Let's say there is a way (I don't know if there is though).  The idea of her staves increasing her magic spells is indeed interesting.  Her spells can always use more damage output, at least after the first class up... as long as it doesn't power up monster spells too.

The problem is, if I make the weapons increase her spell damage by increasing her INT stat, then it'll also increase her magic defense against INT spells (which is almost all of them).  I don't want her weapons to increase her magic defense, at least in the way that it reflects in the menu screen.  She already has the highest magic defense in the game.

Also, Carlie is one of the most useful character in the game, despite her not being a DPS character.  I actually place her the highest in the tier list -- yes, even above vanilla Kevin and Hawk.  She can heal almost as soon as the first boss is beaten.  Free healing is absurdly useful, and you know it.  Then in the L classes, she gets all primary SABERS, MT heal, and a holy attack spell.  She's pretty much unstoppable with that, esp her LD class -- due to a bug, her LD class gets Black Curse class item from the ??? Seeds, so that's pretty much a gamebreaker for her.  I tried to make her D classes a bit more competitive with my balance patch (her vanilla D classes are useless, relative to her L classes) -- her DL got Revive spell (Ghost), and her DD got spell damage beefed up (including Demon Breath).



@Messianic

Quote from: Messianic
@praetorius

So this may be off topic, but I just couldn’t play through Sin of Mana much because of the death penalty, but I didn’t want to play on the super easy modes. I realized I had to turn off using tech for npc party members just to survive Full Metal Hugger. Is there any way you could separate the death penalty garbage from the rest of the hack? It gives no real purpose other than a massive FU to the player if they don’t perfectly nail a boss the first time, or even if a random crit takes them out. Honestly Angel Grail being over 1K is ludicrous too. Please cut their costs down to like 300 and make them resurrect you with 25% hp if you have to.

You know that there's Sin of Mana forum, right?  I think you might find answers to that there, as I'm sure multiple people asked that.  And there are other people who can answer that too (and you can hear the opposite side of that argument).  The thing is, you can't satisfy everyone.  Some people prefer one thing, and others prefer the opposite.  And sometimes, hackers just want to put ideas into the games.  As a hacker myself (sort of), I can say that we listen and value others' opinions, but sometimes, we also want to express our own ideas into the hacks, regardless of what others may think of it.  For example, NOBODY liked my idea of nerfing Angel's Grail (based on reviews and what was posted here), but I did it anyways, because I wanted to, and I still think it's a good idea.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 10, 2021, 09:56:05 pm
@Red Soul

Thanks for the review.  I appreciate it.  Also, for your next playthrough, can you try out my Better Monster?  I put a lot of work on it, and I want to see how it stands to the opinions of other people.

I was under the impression "Better Monsters" was part of the bugfix now, that's why I didn't add it, my apologies. I'll certainly try it next time. Let me know if you require a specific party for field testing.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Zimgief on November 11, 2021, 05:08:52 am
Magic Defense
Quote
When I first played the game, I thought INT was for M.Def (because I saw that INT affected M.Def in the stat screen), and PIE was for M.Atk.  And I thought Angela should only raise her PIE, because I wanted to increase her magic attack, and her Holy Ball reflected that.  Boy, was I wrong.  If you intend on changing the mechanics of M.Atk and M.Def, then I propose that INT is for M.Atk (since Angela has the highest INT stat), and PIE for M.Def (Carlie is already too powerful, so she can use a bit of nerf to her attack spells and heal light).  Hopefully, that change will reflect in the menu stat screen.  And if needed, I'm willing to create a different Balance hack, specifically that reflects the bugfix changes (ex: Holy Ball will use INT stat instead of PIE stat).
This makes sense for any people familiar with RPGs, sure... but developers were onto something, by insuring every stat has an impact for non-casters. With this change, INT would be useless to them. :(
Quote
(ex: Holy Ball will use INT stat instead of PIE stat).
Interesting... It adds weight to Red Soul's idea, that PIE increases Holy and Dark m.defenses, as Holy is already treated differently in offense (and it makes sense that it also protects against Dark). But realistically, it would not read well on the status screen, as it shows only one m.def stat.  :'(

Counter Magic
Just an idea (I don't think it's very solid), along the lines of tying holy and dark m.def to PIE: what about Counter Magic reflects all except Holy and Dark, be it cast by player, or boss? It doesn't hinder Angela, if that was the developers' purpose with their curious omissions (she has access to light and dark magic).

Angela's Staves
Without any changes to weapons (which affect other characters), what do you think about changing her techs? I might be off-track as I don't know what are the original formulas. But her techs, in addition to p.att, could use her INT stat (worth to use tech even if normal attacks do close to nothing) + weapon level (buying new weapons would increase her techniques' effectivness)?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 11, 2021, 06:07:05 am
Magic DefenseThis makes sense for any people familiar with RPGs, sure... but developers were onto something, by insuring every stat has an impact for non-casters. With this change, INT would be useless to them. :(Interesting... It adds weight to Red Soul's idea, that PIE increases Holy and Dark m.defenses, as Holy is already treated differently in offense (and it makes sense that it also protects against Dark). But realistically, it would not read well on the status screen, as it shows only one m.def stat.  :'(

True, there is no per-element defense display on the stat screen. Come to think of it, the stat screen is pretty basic. It's a pity it is not more informative.

Counter Magic
Just an idea (I don't think it's very solid), along the lines of tying holy and dark m.def to PIE: what about Counter Magic reflects all except Holy and Dark, be it cast by player, or boss? It doesn't hinder Angela, if that was the developers' purpose with their curious omissions (she has access to light and dark magic).

Sometimes I think a lot of the mechanical side of the game was rushed out of the door, honestly - maybe to meet some sort of pressing deadline back in 95. Proof of that is we are trying to brainstorm sensible paths to give it all proper weight and balance, all these years later.

Angela's Staves
Without any changes to weapons (which affect other characters), what do you think about changing her techs? I might be off-track as I don't know what are the original formulas. But her techs, in addition to p.att, could use her INT stat (worth to use tech even if normal attacks do close to nothing) + weapon level (buying new weapons would increase her techniques' effectivness)?

If her techs used magic stats, they would be pretty strong, I imagine. But something tells me techs might be hard coded to work as physicals.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Nuclear3D on November 11, 2021, 08:28:35 am
Dumb question maybe but can you use a title screen replacer with your hacks and bugfix edition ?

https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/2569/
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Pethronos on November 11, 2021, 10:33:14 am
Dumb question maybe but can you use a title screen replacer with your hacks and bugfix edition ?

https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/2569/

Of course, you can do whatever you want with title screens or other aesthetics patches.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 11, 2021, 01:30:38 pm
maybe debuff likeihood
(although it's mostly my headcanon and I don't know if that's possible or even desirable as a balance point).
I'm against any chance to negate suffering a debuff, enemies don't throw many debuffs your way already.


@praetorius

So this may be off topic, but I just couldn’t play through Sin of Mana much because of the death penalty, but I didn’t want to play on the super easy modes. I realized I had to turn off using tech for npc party members just to survive Full Metal Hugger. Is there any way you could separate the death penalty garbage from the rest of the hack? It gives no real purpose other than a massive FU to the player if they don’t perfectly nail a boss the first time, or even if a random crit takes them out. Honestly Angel Grail being over 1K is ludicrous too. Please cut their costs down to like 300 and make them resurrect you with 25% hp if you have to.
Strike one for getting my name wrong. Seriously, where do people always get the "o" from...

I've had this discussion several times already and it won't happen.
Even having difficulty options below hard was already a concession.
But lets entertain the thought for a minute (IT WILL NOT HAPPEN!): what purpose would inns have? You have regenerating (therefor infinite) MP; once you know heal light (or bought the regeneration spell from a merchant right after the first boss) you get free full recovery after every battle. Inns would have literally no purpose at that point.
So what would you do with them? NOONE that tried to argue against the death mechanic could ever provide a reasonable suggestion for that.


Will you put that in your next update?  Because if so, then it's exactly what some people here would want (they want Luck Denies Counter with signature enemy skill/transformation guaranteed).
I will fix the luck denies counter so the threshold moves (50% and 25%) can be used but I will not add an extra patch that removes enemies counters completely.


If you're gonna add removal to AntiMagic, then I personally prefer you remove everything, including the weakness and immunity.  That way, it's "fair" to the target that gets AntiMagiced -- loses all his elemental defense, but also loses his weakness.  Or is that too powerful or something?
I feel that would indeed make it too powerful.
Players have no weakness in this patch (and yes I know the whining such a change would cause - I went through with it in the other hack) so it doesn't matter for the one case a monster uses it.
Now if you remove elemental adjustments from a monster it would not matter which saber you use since they all give no damage bonus, EXCEPT moon and leaf saber, they'd go from a support option to the only valid option.
Now you could argue that you would have the option to not use anti-magic to keep a weakness intact, but really, when would you use it then?
If you're at a level of play where you would consider thinking about removing an annoying resistance/immunity you would just as well just buy the correct elemental saber to hit a weakness.
Really, the ONLY use I've seen for anti magic in vanilla is making black rabite tamer; for every other boss it would screw up the debuffs I've put in place.


Also, if possible, can you make it so that bosses' Counter Magic at least reflects Holy element?  I actually prefer it reflect all elements, but I assume the devs left holes in bosses' Counter Magic to ensure Angela isn't crippled against Counter Magic.  Anyways, I said Holy element, because I want Carlie D's summon spell to have something over Carlie L's Holy Ball.
All summons are non-elemental in vanilla.
I made them basically L2 elemental spells in sin of mana so her dark side has the broader coverage and the light side has the arguable best element and more support; but that is again too much for a "bug fix with minor balance repairs".

If you ask me, countermagic should just reflect all elements; it already does for players and random enemies, just not for bosses. Can't think of a reason why it was done this way.


When I first played the game, I thought INT was for M.Def (because I saw that INT affected M.Def in the stat screen), and PIE was for M.Atk.  And I thought Angela should only raise her PIE, because I wanted to increase her magic attack, and her Holy Ball reflected that.  Boy, was I wrong.  If you intend on changing the mechanics of M.Atk and M.Def, then I propose that INT is for M.Atk (since Angela has the highest INT stat), and PIE for M.Def (Carlie is already too powerful, so she can use a bit of nerf to her attack spells and heal light).
My suggestion was just to use the INT for both m.defs on the player side and leave monster with separate m.defs and don't change spell stats either.

Players can throw a ton of spells at the enemies over the course of the game, so there is value in having separate m.defs there; but players very rarely suffer spell damage, so having to increase 2 stats to gain 8 damage reduction per point is not worth it compared to vit's up to 15 damage reduction all the time.


I never experimented with weapons increasing INT.  Let's say there is a way (I don't know if there is though).  The idea of her staves increasing her magic spells is indeed interesting.  Her spells can always use more damage output, at least after the first class up... as long as it doesn't power up monster spells too.

The problem is, if I make the weapons increase her spell damage by increasing her INT stat, then it'll also increase her magic defense against INT spells (which is almost all of them).  I don't want her weapons to increase her magic defense, at least in the way that it reflects in the menu screen.  She already has the highest magic defense in the game.
The game is not equipped to handle temporary base stat changes.
That's why I suggested adjusting the spells' stat multipliers and base values.


As a hacker myself (sort of), I can say that we listen and value others' opinions, but sometimes, we also want to express our own ideas into the hacks, regardless of what others may think of it.  For example, NOBODY liked my idea of nerfing Angel's Grail (based on reviews and what was posted here), but I did it anyways, because I wanted to, and I still think it's a good idea.
Makes you think it is kinda is a rite of passage.

Changed death penalty, giving godbeasts some uniqueness via additional mechanics, player having elemental weaknesses, black rabite being a mandatory boss, half the mechanics in my FF5 hack, about everything I did in metroid...
A lot of water was turned into whine.


Magic DefenseThis makes sense for any people familiar with RPGs, sure... but developers were onto something, by insuring every stat has an impact for non-casters. With this change, INT would be useless to them. :(Interesting... It adds weight to Red Soul's idea, that PIE increases Holy and Dark m.defenses, as Holy is already treated differently in offense (and it makes sense that it also protects against Dark). But realistically, it would not read well on the status screen, as it shows only one m.def stat.  :'(
Could make INT exclusive for m.def and PIE exclusive for max MP.
Seriously, 8 m.def for a third of the rarely happening spells (some boss only spells actually hit p.def...) you get thrown your way isn't worth it either.
Just cast stupiditymind down that's as good as it gets..


Counter Magic
Just an idea (I don't think it's very solid), along the lines of tying holy and dark m.def to PIE: what about Counter Magic reflects all except Holy and Dark, be it cast by player, or boss? It doesn't hinder Angela, if that was the developers' purpose with their curious omissions (she has access to light and dark magic).
I'm opposed on the base that it would also buff light Charlie.
Not that counter magic happens often.


Angela's Staves
Without any changes to weapons (which affect other characters), what do you think about changing her techs? I might be off-track as I don't know what are the original formulas. But her techs, in addition to p.att, could use her INT stat (worth to use tech even if normal attacks do close to nothing) + weapon level (buying new weapons would increase her techniques' effectivness)?
Techs are just 1.5x/2x/2.5x atk before def.


If her techs used magic stats, they would be pretty strong, I imagine. But something tells me techs might be hard coded to work as physicals.
Each Lv2/3 tech is its own "spell" entry, so they can be changed individually.
But I don't think this would change much; she'd have to gain 7-9 tech points first which means hitting enemies for 1 dmg with a stick for a while when she should be charging an explosion spell.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Zimgief on November 11, 2021, 03:01:49 pm
Magic Defense
Quote
My suggestion was just to use the INT for both m.defs on the player side and leave monster with separate m.defs and don't change spell stats either.
Quote
Could make INT exclusive for m.def and PIE exclusive for max MP.
Seriously, 8 m.def for a third of the rarely happening spells (some boss only spells actually hit p.def...) you get thrown your way isn't worth it either.
Just cast mind down that's as good as it gets..
What does INT and PIE do exactly, in regards to magic defense? The manual I linked is vague. I read elswhere that PIE boosts m.def specifically against light?
In any case, I like the idea that MP is only increased by PIE, as my point was to not make PIE less useful for melee characters.
- Angela is already interested in PIE for faster spell casting, it makes the stat even more valuable for her
- it doesn't change anything for Carlie
- other characters would benefit from increasing INT and PIE (otherwise, INT is enough, and PIE mostly useless).

Quote
Each Lv2/3 tech is its own "spell" entry, so they can be changed individually.
But I don't think this would change much; she'd have to gain 7-9 tech points first which means hitting enemies for 1 dmg with a stick for a while when she should be charging an explosion spell.
Fair enough. But do you think a change to Angela's Lv2/3 techs would make them valuable when the player wants to save MP? That is all we should ask from them, a viable (if subpar) alternative when needed... and an reason to see the new animations she gets with her new classes. :D
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Messianic on November 11, 2021, 03:54:22 pm
@praetarius

Must be because praetor is a Roman government term.

Anywho are you saying sleeping at an Inn undoes the stat loss penalties from dying? If so that is a game changer.

Also, I am no stranger to hacking or making a more difficult mod. My Mother 2 Deluxe hack of Earthbound speaks for itself. So don’t think I am some rube who doesn’t know what the hacking world is actually like.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 11, 2021, 04:08:27 pm
Magic DefenseWhat does INT and PIE do exactly, in regards to magic defense? The manual I linked is vague. I read elswhere that PIE boosts m.def specifically against light?
Both give their own magic defense.
Max MP is the higher of both stats plus some base value by level.
Each spells determines which stat it is powered by.
-all of Lise's and Charlie's spells are powered by PIE
-Holy Ball and Saint Beam are PIE based, all other Angela spells INT based
-Hawk's jutsus and poison bubble are INT based, rest AGL
-for boss spells some are INT, some are STR

Depending on which stat is powered by determines what defense applies:
INT -> INT m.def
PIE -> PIE m.def
all other -> p.def


- Angela is already interested in PIE for faster spell casting
this is not a thing in vanilla; cast time is ONLY determined by which spell is used and who/what class level uses it


Fair enough. But do you think a change to Angela's Lv2/3 techs would make them valuable when the player wants to save MP? That is all we should ask from them, a viable (if subpar) alternative when needed... and an reason to see the new animations she gets with her new classes. :D
assuming 240 atk and 220 def (final bosses),
Lv2 tech does: 240x2-220 = 260, the needed 7 hits are worth 400 damage total or ~57 average
Lv3 tech does: 240x2.5-220 = 380, the 9 hits are worth 560 damage total or ~62 average
lets add power up:
Lv3 tech does: 240x1.2x2.5-220 = 500, or 850 with weakness hitting saber; just on neutral the 9 hits are worth 1112 damage total or ~123 average

take Duran (350 atk), slap on power up and the L2 tech alone would be 350x1.2x2-220=640 or even 999 if he had the weakness hitting saber

So if you want to ignore STR and still have the L3 tech relevant, that is not happening if the target has a saber exploitable weakness.


If so that is a game changer.
That it does. Think of it more as fatigue than "death".


Also, I am no stranger to hacking or making a more difficult mod. My Mother 2 Deluxe hack of Earthbound speaks for itself. So don’t think I am some rube who doesn’t know what the hacking world is actually like.
That had nothing to do with you; I just had that and similar complaints so often it just hit a sore spot, sorry.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Zimgief on November 11, 2021, 05:36:55 pm
Thank you for the explanation!

As a player, I don't mind the split m.def, INT bringing the main one, PIE the corner case (holy, and summons if enemies have some), given that is has a clear logic (player's holy and summons also linked to PIE).
But your solution is perfectly fine, and it has another merit: the info on status screen will be correct. :p (I assumes it only displays the INT magic defense, or the average between the two stats).

Regarding linking MP only to PIE. I like the idea, but it may have the unwanted effect of thinning too much Angela's stats, between intelligence, spirit and luck (deny counters!) when in the original game, she could ignore spirit and luck.

Regarding her staves and techniques, it appears this track was a dead-end! I suppose we have to admit the game system fails to entice the player to buy her new weapons. In other games, it would increase magic damage, inflict status effect, have passive bonuses,etc. But not here, the equipment being extremely basic (besides shields' evasion and resistances YOU re-implemented). :p

I have another suggestion: I always felt entering, leaving, and to a lesser extent navigating the menu was horrendously slow. Is it possible to speed it up?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 11, 2021, 05:38:35 pm
I'm against any chance to negate suffering a debuff, enemies don't throw many debuffs your way already.

Okay so full denial is too much, how about a chance of deinal then?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 11, 2021, 06:08:29 pm
But your solution is perfectly fine, and it has another merit: the info on status screen will be correct. :p (I assumes it only displays the INT magic defense, or the average between the two stats).
It indeed displays INT m.def. That's why I chose it over PIE m.def in the suggestion.


Regarding linking MP only to PIE. I like the idea, but it may have the unwanted effect of thinning too much Angela's stats, between intelligence, spirit and luck (deny counters!) when in the original game, she could ignore spirit and luck.
She already needs PIE for arguably the best element, at least in the endgame: holy.
INT for every other spell. Everyone needs VIT ofc.

A melee char needs STR as much as she does INT and they probably now want AGL (missing means no damage dealt, getting hit all the time makes you dead and dead people also deal no damage) and LUCK (crit is a decent damage amplifier) as well. So I think that is fair.


Regarding her staves and techniques, it appears this track was a dead-end! I suppose we have to admit the game system fails to entice the player to buy her new weapons. In other games, it would increase magic damage, inflict status effect, have passive bonuses,etc.
As I wrote earlier, we could make it adjust spell damage independant from your actual stats.


I have another suggestion: I always felt entering, leaving, and to a lesser extent navigating the menu was horrendously slow. Is it possible to speed it up?
If I could I'd have done that long ago already.


Okay so full denial is too much, how about a chance of deinal then?
As I said, any chance for debuff denial feels wrong to me.

Really, with 2 of 4 potential damage spell casters using PIE, heal light and poto oil using it as well I don't think it needs much of a buff. If you think it doesn't do enough we could turn round drops, candy and seeds into mini heal lights (i.e. scaling with PIE).
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 11, 2021, 06:54:59 pm
It indeed displays INT m.def. That's why I chose it over PIE m.def in the suggestion.
Really, with 2 of 4 potential damage spell casters using PIE, heal light and poto oil using it as well I don't think it needs much of a buff. If you think it doesn't do enough we could turn round drops, candy and seeds into mini heal lights (i.e. scaling with PIE).

I like the idea of lesser healing items scaling a bit with piety.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 11, 2021, 08:04:31 pm
I'm getting confused when someone's talking about Sin of Mana or SD3.  I'm just gonna talk about SD3, as Sin of Mana has its own discussion page.

Quote from: praetarius5018
I will fix the luck denies counter so the threshold moves (50% and 25%) can be used but I will not add an extra patch that removes enemies counters completely.

Okay, I think I may have misunderstood something, so let me retry my question.  What's the difference between vanilla, and "change 10C629 from F0 to 80", in terms of effect? (erasing the No Skill Counter change will turn it into vanilla)  Because obviously, vanilla doesn't block the HP threshold moves (which is what I want), and apparently, the latter doesn't block the HP threshold moves either.  Is the latter part an addition to your Luck Denies Counter, to make the enemies use HP threshold moves?

Also, does that only apply to bosses, or all regular enemies?  If HP threshold moves are guaranteed to regular monsters, then enemies with MT Tech (Bloody Wolves, Nightblades, Dark Lords) would be absurd.  I'm not sure how vanilla works, but I think the regular enemies randomly dont' use their HP threshold moves (and Luck Denies Counter makes that even less, which was what I wanted).

Quote from: praetarius5018
I feel that would indeed make it too powerful.
Players have no weakness in this patch (and yes I know the whining such a change would cause - I went through with it in the other hack) so it doesn't matter for the one case a monster uses it.
Now if you remove elemental adjustments from a monster it would not matter which saber you use since they all give no damage bonus, EXCEPT moon and leaf saber, they'd go from a support option to the only valid option.
Now you could argue that you would have the option to not use anti-magic to keep a weakness intact, but really, when would you use it then?

Oh yeah, I completely forgot about Moon Saber.  Leaf Saber, I don't really care about, because MP isn't really an issue by the time you get to Lampflower Forest (maybe even earlier) -- it's not like you can decrease enemy's MP (unlike Secret of Mana).  Moon Saber working on innate-Moon-defense bosses would be OP (as far as I know, the only bosses with Moon immunity are Black Rabite, Dark Godbeast, and Lugar -- no bosses have resist against Moon).  Okay, then can you make AntiMagic neutralize everything (reflect, absorb, immune, resist, weak), except Moon element?  That way, enemies with natural Moon defense isn't crippled by AntiMagic, and Moon Saber isn't too OP.  And as a bonus side effect, Moon Saber will no longer work against Moon enemies, like Dolan and Bigeau, even after AntiMagic.  As far as I know, the only attack in the entire game with Moon element (including all enemy skills) is Moon Saber -- I tried to give Moon element to one of Angela's spells, but that backfired spectacularly (it just damaged the caster).

If not, then I'm also okay with your initial idea of AntiMagic neutralizing just the innate resist, as that'll not affect the 3 Moon-immune bosses.

Quote from: praetarius5018
Really, the ONLY use I've seen for anti magic in vanilla is making black rabite tamer; for every other boss it would screw up the debuffs I've put in place.

I actually used it against some elemental bosses in the beginning of the battle, just so I can cast Jutsus on them.

Quote from: praetarius5018
If you ask me, countermagic should just reflect all elements; it already does for players and random enemies, just not for bosses. Can't think of a reason why it was done this way.

I agree.  Esp since Counter Magic can be neutralized with a store-bought item.

Quote from: praetarius5018
My suggestion was just to use the INT for both m.defs on the player side and leave monster with separate m.defs and don't change spell stats either.

Players can throw a ton of spells at the enemies over the course of the game, so there is value in having separate m.defs there; but players very rarely suffer spell damage, so having to increase 2 stats to gain 8 damage reduction per point is not worth it compared to vit's up to 15 damage reduction all the time.

Could make INT exclusive for m.def and PIE exclusive for max MP.

Huh.  That's a really good idea.  I thought PIE will become too useless if INT took over the M.Def for all, but if PIE affects MaxMP, then it'll have a common usage for everyone.  Having said that, instead of INT not affecting MaxMP at all, can you make it so that INT doesn't increase MaxMP as much as vanilla, and instead PIE increase MaxMP more than vanilla? (at least double of INT)  That way, Angela should be able to reach 99 MaxMP, even at her DD class (22 INT + 18 PIE), but it shouldn't affect other characters with low INT + high PIE as much (such as LL Duran, who has 15 INT and 17 PIE).  I mean, they'll probably still end up with higher MaxMP than vanilla, but the difference of MaxMP between DD Angela and LL Duran should be rather large, as intended.  Food for thought.

Quote from: praetarius5018
The game is not equipped to handle temporary base stat changes.
That's why I suggested adjusting the spells' stat multipliers and base values.

But wouldn't that affect the enemy spells too, assuming they're using the same spell?  I already increased the powers of spells in my Balance patch, and some of those became quite nasty.  Increasing further may be a bit dangerous (although I haven't tested out all of them).

I think someone mentioned this before, but I think the "upgraded" staff should increase her cast time, rather than power.  Counting all the weapons with multipliers, it's x2~15, so that's 14 staffs.  If you don't count the first two staffs (as you get the 2nd staff as default/Astoria, which is before getting the first spell), that's 12 upgrades.  If each staff decreases the spell cast time by... 5 frames, that's 60 frames by the final staff.  Her Lv1 spells are 60 frames, so with the final staff (and 2nd class up), she should be able to insta-cast Lv1 spells.  Hmm.  Quite fast.  What do you think?  Too powerful?

Quote from: praetarius5018
A lot of water was turned into whine.

Okay, I'm gonna use that statement.  That was actually pretty funny.



Okay, I finished up the EVA mod plan (it took longer than expected, because I kept changing my mind).  I used Duran DL for the character ("c"), and Lise LL for monsters ("m").  Take a look, and let me know what you think.

Code: [Select]
name mod m agi c agi m eva eva-acc
---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
01 Myconid -50 6 4~5 9 3~1.5
03 Goblin -30 6 4~5 13 7~5.5
21 Rabite -30 6 4~5 13 7~5.5
5D Battum -10 6 4~5 17 11~9.5
06 Poron -30 6 4~5 13 7~5.5
34 Assassin Bug -30 6 4~5 13 7~5.5
2E Ogre Box -30 6 4~5 13 7~5.5
42 Bound Wolf -30 6 4~5 13 7~5.5
55 Zombie -50 6 4~5 9 3~1.5
61 Machine Golem -20 6 4~5 15 9~7.5
64 Full Metal Hagger -20 6 4~5 15 9~7.5

04 Goblin Lord -30 7 4~6 14 8~5
12 Gal Bee -10 7 4~6 18 12~9
15 Magician -30 7 4~6 14 8~5
1B Slime -50 7 4~6 10 4~1
25 Molebear -30 7 4~6 14 8~5
2B Machine Golem -50 7 4~6 10 4~1
30 Unicorn Head -10 7 4~6 18 12~9
65 Jewel Eater -20 7 4~6 16 10~7

00 Shell Hunter 0 8 4~7 24 18~13.5
0B Armor Knight -50 8 4~7 12 6~1.5
22 Rabilion -30 8 4~7 16 10~5.5
39 Needlebird -10 8 4~7 21 15~10.5
40 Harpy -30 8 4~7 16 10~5.5
4F ChibiDevil -10 8 4~7 21 15~10.5
66 Tzenker 20 8 4~7 28 22~17.5

0F Ninja -10 9 4~8 22 16~10
1F Shapeshifter -30 9 4~8 17 11~5
32 Evil Sword 0 9 4~8 25 19~13
46 Specter 100 9 4~8 50 44~38
56 Ghoul -50 9 4~8 12 6~0
62 Genova -30 9 4~8 17 11~5
DA Bill and Ben 0 9 4~8 25 19~13

18 Dark Priest -10 10 4~9 25 19~11.5
1D Grell -30 10 4~9 19 13~5.5
38 Cockatrice -50 10 4~9 14 8~0.5
3A Cockabird -10 10 4~9 25 19~11.5
48 Poto -30 10 4~9 19 13~5.5
53 Pakkun Baby -50 10 4~9 14 8~0.5
27 Pakkun Lizard -30 10 4~9 19 13~5.5
67 Gorva 10 10 4~9 30 24~16.5

09 Duck Soldier -30 11 4~10 21 15~6
16 Wizard -10 11 4~10 27 21~12
44 Bulette -50 11 4~10 15 9~0
45 Gold Bulette -50 11 4~10 15 9~0
59 Sahagin -30 11 4~10 21 15~6
5B Sea Serpent -10 11 4~10 27 21~12

3B Werewolf -25 12 10~11 23 8~6.5
3C Black Fang -10 12 10~11 27 12~10.5
5E Dark Battum 10 12 10~11 34 19~17.5
D7 Lugar -10 12 10~11 27 12~10.5

07 Porobin Hood -25 13 10~12 25 10~7
13 Lady Bee -10 13 10~12 30 15~12
36 Mega Crawler -40 13 10~12 20 5~2
6B Gildervine -30 13 10~12 23 8~5

23 King Rabite -25 14 10~13 27 12~7.5
2F Kaiser Mimic -25 14 10~13 27 12~7.5

02 Darth Matango -40 15 10~14 23 8~2
05 Beast Master -25 15 10~14 29 14~8
08 Porobin Leader -10 15 10~14 35 20~14
0A Duck General -25 15 10~14 29 14~8
0C Silver Knight -40 15 10~14 23 8~2
0D Sword Master -40 15 10~14 23 8~2
10 Ninja Master 10 15 10~14 42 27~21
14 Queen Bee -10 15 10~14 35 20~14
1C Slime Prince -40 15 10~14 23 8~2
1E Grell Mage -25 15 10~14 29 14~8
26 Needlion -25 15 10~14 29 14~8
28 Pakkun Dragon -25 15 10~14 29 14~8
29 Firedrake -40 15 10~14 23 8~2
2C Guardian -40 15 10~14 23 8~2
37 Giga Crawler -40 15 10~14 23 8~2
3D Silver Wolf -10 15 10~14 35 20~14
3E Bloody Wolf -10 15 10~14 35 20~14
41 Siren -25 15 10~14 29 14~8
49 Mama Poto -25 15 10~14 29 14~8
4B Petit Dragon -25 15 10~14 29 14~8
4C Frost Dragon -25 15 10~14 29 14~8
54 Pakkuri Baby -40 15 10~14 23 8~2
57 Carmilla -25 15 10~14 29 14~8
5A Petit Poseidon -25 15 10~14 29 14~8
5C Sea Dragon -10 15 10~14 35 20~14
75 God-Beast Fiegmund 0 15 10~14 39 24~18
76 God-Beast Xan Bie 10 15 10~14 42 27~21
77 God-Beast Land Umber 0 15 10~14 39 24~18
78 God-Beast Dangaard 20 15 10~14 46 31~25
79 God-Beast Lightgazer -10 15 10~14 35 20~14
7B God-Beast Dolan -20 15 10~14 31 16~10
7C God-Beast Mispolm -30 15 10~14 27 12~6

11 Nightblade 0 17 10~16 42 27~18
1A Evil Shaman -10 17 10~16 37 22~13
24 Great Rabite -20 17 10~16 33 18~9
2A Basilisk -30 17 10~16 29 14~5
35 Ruster Bug -20 17 10~16 33 18~9
3F Wolf Devil -10 17 10~16 37 22~13
43 Kerberos -20 17 10~16 33 18~9
47 Ghost 100 17 10~16 84* 69~60* <-- This is obviously less, because max Eva is 60.
4A Papa Poto -20 17 10~16 33 18~9
4D Petit Tiamat -20 17 10~16 33 18~9
50 Gremlin 0 17 10~16 42 27~18
51 Lesser Demon -30 17 10~16 29 14~5
5F Boulder -10 17 10~16 37 22~13

70 Deathjester 0 17 16~17 42 18~16.5
71 Jagan 10 17 16~17 46 22~20.5
73 Darkshine Knight -10 17 16~17 37 13~11.5
7A God-Beast Zable-Fahr 0 17 16~17 42 18~16.5

0E Dark Lord -30 19 16~18 32 8~5
17 High Wizard -10 19 16~18 41 17~14
19 Necromancer -10 19 16~18 41 17~14
20 Shadowzero -20 19 16~18 36 12~9
2D Death Machine -30 19 16~18 32 8~5
31 Gold Unicorn 0 19 16~18 46 22~19
33 Element Sword 10 19 16~18 50 26~23
4E Dragon Zombie -20 19 16~18 36 12~9
52 Great Demon -30 19 16~18 32 8~5
58 Carmilla Queen -20 19 16~18 36 12~9
60 Power Boulder -10 19 16~18 41 17~14

6F Koren 10 19 16~18 50 26~23
72 Bigeau 20 19 16~18 55 31~28
74 Heath 10 19 16~18 50 26~23
7D Dragon Emperor 0 19 16~18 46 22~19
7E Dark Lich 10 19 16~18 50 26~23
7F Archdemon -10 19 16~18 41 17~14

I love Excel.  It made my life so much easier in trying out different numbers, including the round down parts.

I'm aware that I may have to use two different address for some bosses, like Dangaard, Koren, and Heath.  I'll do that, just not for this list.

Some of the fights may be tough, esp the first Gorva.  I mean, in addition to vanila toughness -- 2 characters, no MP healing unless you're with Carlie, Kevin can't transform if he sleeps even once, etc -- Gorva now has high EVA, meaning even melee attacks will miss 15~25% (unless Bird's Scale/Needlion's Eye is used).  Hopefully, people will realize that AGL is important from this fight.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on November 12, 2021, 03:12:29 am
@praetarius5018

Hey, for your Sin of Mana, did you employ the unused Squid boss?  According to wiki, there's an unused Squid boss, and there's even sprite and everything.  Based on the picture, I'm guessing he was supposed to be used in the Seashore Cave.  Make sense, since there was no boss in that place.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Zimgief on November 12, 2021, 03:26:06 am
Quote from: praetarius5018
A melee char needs STR as much as she does INT and they probably now want AGL (missing means no damage dealt, getting hit all the time makes you dead and dead people also deal no damage) and LUCK (crit is a decent damage amplifier) as well. So I think that is fair.
True!

Quote from: hmsong
Huh.  That's a really good idea.  I thought PIE will become too useless if INT took over the M.Def for all, but if PIE affects MaxMP, then it'll have a common usage for everyone.  Having said that, instead of INT not affecting MaxMP at all, can you make it so that INT doesn't increase MaxMP as much as vanilla, and instead PIE increase MaxMP more than vanilla? (at least double of INT)  That way, Angela should be able to reach 99 MaxMP, even at her DD class (22 INT + 18 PIE), but it shouldn't affect other characters with low INT + high PIE as much (such as LL Duran, who has 15 INT and 17 PIE).  I mean, they'll probably still end up with higher MaxMP than vanilla, but the difference of MaxMP between DD Angela and LL Duran should be rather large, as intended.  Food for thought.
As a player, I don't know if i'd bother about Spirit with Angela in this case, completementing the needs against a boss with magic walnuts. Gameplay-wise, PIE-only MP works better. (But I understand hitting 99 MP is something magical for a spell caster. :p)

I like the idea of lesser healing items scaling a bit with piety.
Is there a strong reason for making scaling lesser healing items?
I always felt it to be strategic in JRPGs to have some fixed amount healing items, as they are simple and reliable, regardless of stats. They are ubiquitous in games for a reason. :)
(And it made Poto Oil that much special, I rembember spending time to farm them. :p)

Quote from: hmsong
I think someone mentioned this before, but I think the "upgraded" staff should increase her cast time, rather than power.  Counting all the weapons with multipliers, it's x2~15, so that's 14 staffs.  If you don't count the first two staffs (as you get the 2nd staff as default/Astoria, which is before getting the first spell), that's 12 upgrades.  If each staff decreases the spell cast time by... 5 frames, that's 60 frames by the final staff.  Her Lv1 spells are 60 frames, so with the final staff (and 2nd class up), she should be able to insta-cast Lv1 spells.  Hmm.  Quite fast.  What do you think?  Too powerful?
Yeah, it's probably the best thing to do for her staves. Between class bonus, PIE and staves, by the end of the game, she would get next to insta-cast!

Quote from: hmsong
Okay, I finished up the EVA mod plan (it took longer than expected, because I kept changing my mind).  I used Duran DL for the character ("c"), and Lise LL for monsters ("m").  Take a look, and let me know what you think.
Good job! I like the idea that the bugfix patch keeps it simple and functional, and that you make something more nuanced in your patch.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 12, 2021, 12:39:58 pm
Okay, I think I may have misunderstood something, so let me retry my question.  What's the difference between vanilla, and "change 10C629 from F0 to 80", in terms of effect? (erasing the No Skill Counter change will turn it into vanilla)  Because obviously, vanilla doesn't block the HP threshold moves (which is what I want), and apparently, the latter doesn't block the HP threshold moves either.  Is the latter part an addition to your Luck Denies Counter, to make the enemies use HP threshold moves?
vanilla: monster always counters spells/techs
my patch (next update): luck determines chance for those counters
10C629 - F080: monster never counter
all three: bosses can use their "desperation" moves 100%


Also, does that only apply to bosses, or all regular enemies?  If HP threshold moves are guaranteed to regular monsters, then enemies with MT Tech (Bloody Wolves, Nightblades, Dark Lords) would be absurd.  I'm not sure how vanilla works, but I think the regular enemies randomly dont' use their HP threshold moves (and Luck Denies Counter makes that even less, which was what I wanted).
the change applies to all.
the MT techs are just random skills they already can use at will.
afaik the basilisks that grow into petribirds and the pakkun babies that grow into lizards are the only threshold actions for regular monster.



As far as I know, the only attack in the entire game with Moon element (including all enemy skills) is Moon Saber -- I tried to give Moon element to one of Angela's spells, but that backfired spectacularly (it just damaged the caster).
actually half vanish is a moon elemental spell, it deals +25% damage on luna day. it just doesn't respect the weakness/resist/reflect interactions.


I actually used it against some elemental bosses in the beginning of the battle, just so I can cast Jutsus on them.
True, forgot about that.


Having said that, instead of INT not affecting MaxMP at all, can you make it so that INT doesn't increase MaxMP as much as vanilla, and instead PIE increase MaxMP more than vanilla? (at least double of INT)
I think that goes too far and would make walnuts and leaf saber way less useful than they are.


But wouldn't that affect the enemy spells too, assuming they're using the same spell?  I already increased the powers of spells in my Balance patch, and some of those became quite nasty.  Increasing further may be a bit dangerous (although I haven't tested out all of them).
Same as with crit damage, I can just give them a separate branch where they keep the original damage values.

Same as I could give L2/3 techs a damage nerf only for monster - maybe I should do that as well..


I think someone mentioned this before, but I think the "upgraded" staff should increase her cast time, rather than power.  Counting all the weapons with multipliers, it's x2~15, so that's 14 staffs.  If you don't count the first two staffs (as you get the 2nd staff as default/Astoria, which is before getting the first spell), that's 12 upgrades.  If each staff decreases the spell cast time by... 5 frames, that's 60 frames by the final staff.  Her Lv1 spells are 60 frames, so with the final staff (and 2nd class up), she should be able to insta-cast Lv1 spells.  Hmm.  Quite fast.  What do you think?  Too powerful?


Okay, I finished up the EVA mod plan (it took longer than expected, because I kept changing my mind).  I used Duran DL for the character ("c"), and Lise LL for monsters ("m").  Take a look, and let me know what you think.
I'm not too fond of "RNG stats" being that finely tuned (e.g. -10% vs -20%, players won't notice the difference)
But nothing stops us from having two versions.


Some of the fights may be tough, esp the first Gorva.  I mean, in addition to vanila toughness -- 2 characters, no MP healing unless you're with Carlie, Kevin can't transform if he sleeps even once, etc -- Gorva now has high EVA, meaning even melee attacks will miss 15~25% (unless Bird's Scale/Needlion's Eye is used).  Hopefully, people will realize that AGL is important from this fight.
This fight is one of the reasons I think the first class change should come before it as it basically gives almost every class some answer to it.

Hawk either debuff evade (dark) and just direct spell damage (light).
Angela already has Holy Ball so whatever.
Charlie would gain a damage spell.
Lise can either buff your accuracy or debuff his evade.

Duran and Kevin on the light side would just love it if heal hurts undead was a thing here..



Hey, for your Sin of Mana, did you employ the unused Squid boss?  According to wiki, there's an unused Squid boss, and there's even sprite and everything.  Based on the picture, I'm guessing he was supposed to be used in the Seashore Cave.  Make sense, since there was no boss in that place.
Tried, didn't find it. Though I'm fine with there being no boss; just imagine if that fight was "that one boss" level of roadblock. You have no access to the black market, the most recent weapon/armor shop is kinda hidden (at least I had to look up that there even was one).


Is there a strong reason for making scaling lesser healing items?
I always felt it to be strategic in JRPGs to have some fixed amount healing items, as they are simple and reliable, regardless of stats.
Nah, was just a suggestion for those that feel PIE does too little.
At least in speed runs they put one char just on PIE duty because of how good the heal increase for the poto oils is.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Zimgief on November 12, 2021, 02:28:50 pm
Pratarius5018, your answer to
Quote
I think someone mentioned this before, but I think the "upgraded" staff should increase her cast time, rather than power.  Counting all the weapons with multipliers, it's x2~15, so that's 14 staffs.  If you don't count the first two staffs (as you get the 2nd staff as default/Astoria, which is before getting the first spell), that's 12 upgrades.  If each staff decreases the spell cast time by... 5 frames, that's 60 frames by the final staff.  Her Lv1 spells are 60 frames, so with the final staff (and 2nd class up), she should be able to insta-cast Lv1 spells.  Hmm.  Quite fast.  What do you think?  Too powerful?
got eaten!

Quote
Nah, was just a suggestion for those that feel PIE does too little.
At least in speed runs they put one char just on PIE duty because of how good the heal increase for the poto oils is.
PIE will do enough without this change, increasing MP anyway. :)
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 12, 2021, 03:15:22 pm
I think someone mentioned this before, but I think the "upgraded" staff should increase her cast time, rather than power.  Counting all the weapons with multipliers, it's x2~15, so that's 14 staffs.  If you don't count the first two staffs (as you get the 2nd staff as default/Astoria, which is before getting the first spell), that's 12 upgrades.  If each staff decreases the spell cast time by... 5 frames, that's 60 frames by the final staff.  Her Lv1 spells are 60 frames, so with the final staff (and 2nd class up), she should be able to insta-cast Lv1 spells.  Hmm.  Quite fast.  What do you think?  Too powerful?
Lv1 spells are 60, Lv2 spells 120, Lv3 spells like Ancient have a massive 150 cast time.
+1 for her having 2 class changes. -60 for best staff.
So it goes from 61, 121, 151 to 1, 61, 91...
imo that makes the Lv1 spells OP since you can get "91" out in the time she'd use one Lv3 spell.

I'd maybe agree to such a decrease instead of the class based reduction.
Though I still think a simple modifier to the heal/damage formula would be more tangible for the player; maybe both.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Zimgief on November 12, 2021, 03:28:27 pm
Quote
Though I still think a simple modifier to the heal/damage formula would be more tangible for the player; maybe both.
The issue being that the boost is supposed to be for Angela only (who needs a reason to buy staves), and the change you're thinking about (if I understood correctly) will be applied to everyone.

Quote
I'd maybe agree to such a decrease instead of the class based reduction.
As long as her level 3 spells are the better option at the price of more mana, it seems fine to me.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 12, 2021, 03:45:09 pm
I think someone mentioned this before, but I think the "upgraded" staff should increase her cast time, rather than power.  Counting all the weapons with multipliers, it's x2~15, so that's 14 staffs.  If you don't count the first two staffs (as you get the 2nd staff as default/Astoria, which is before getting the first spell), that's 12 upgrades.  If each staff decreases the spell cast time by... 5 frames, that's 60 frames by the final staff.  Her Lv1 spells are 60 frames, so with the final staff (and 2nd class up), she should be able to insta-cast Lv1 spells.  Hmm.  Quite fast.  What do you think?  Too powerful?
unless Bird's Scale/Needlion's Eye is used).  Hopefully, people will realize that AGL is important from this fight.

Again, Angela's sole role is doing damage. If she takes too long to do it, she's useless, so the way I see it, there needs to be a trade, either she gets helped by casting a little faster (tangibly faster, to be relevant) or she continues casting slowly but breaks the damage cap or something crazy like that to compensate for the long wait times. Other characters can do other things, but she's just that, an offensive caster.

I reached the secret shop and it was a huge help, thanks HMSong! only Zable left now. Hawk and Duran's damage evened out again (I'm using Pedan gear currently) and using the Forest of Illusion enemies as a baseline (high 30s, low 40s level wise, party at Lv34).
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 12, 2021, 04:51:34 pm

Again, Angela's sole role is doing damage.
That.. is actually something that I didn't take into account.
Lise gains (de)buffs.
Charlie can always heal and more.
Duran&Kevin gain heal on light side OR gain buffs on dark side.
Hawk has debuffs on dark; light has at minimum crowd control (sleep flower, body change) and as wanderer also gains buffs.

But Angela has purely damage spells (unless she goes for rune master which matters for like one dungeon unless you grind a ton). And then she doesn't even reach the top 2 (Hawk with lunatic or deadly weapon can remove over 10k with one spell, Kevin is Kevin).


The issue being that the boost is supposed to be for Angela only (who needs a reason to buy staves), and the change you're thinking about (if I understood correctly) will be applied to everyone.
Going for an Angela only change seems weird to me; I get that she would need a buff in some way (see above).
At least Charlie would have to get a "need" weapon upgrades since she also has little use for it currently.

I might be willing to give Angela/staves a slightly bigger bonus per weapon "level" but ONLY for staves feels just wrong; it would mean that a dedicated heal bot is cheaper than a random dps.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 12, 2021, 05:06:12 pm
But Angela has purely damage spells (unless she goes for rune master which matters for like one dungeon unless you grind a ton). And then she doesn't even reach the top 2 (Hawk with lunatic or deadly weapon can remove over 10k with one spell, Kevin is Kevin).
Precisely my point, yes.

Also, I always felt the last class changes come too late to be relevant for most of the game. 15/30 instead of 18/38 are much more sensible level thresholds in my opinion).

I might be willing to give Angela/staves a slightly bigger bonus per weapon "level" but ONLY for staves feels just wrong; it would mean that a dedicated heal bot is cheaper than a random dps.

Not sure how to apply the same principles to Carlie, but I guess with enough brainstorming a balance will be reached. I just have a hard time caring about her at all, haha.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Zimgief on November 12, 2021, 05:39:56 pm
The reason why the boost would apply only to Angela, roleplay-wise, is because it is a wand, a weapon dedicated to spell casting.
Carlie's flails are made to smash heads!

Sure, ideally, Carlie should have a reason to care about her weapons too. But her spells are already fast, and she is already quite a capable character. Angela on the contrary needs help. Maybe we will manage to find a use for Carlie's weapons, but faster casting doesn't make sense for flails.

Quote from: Zimgief
As long as her level 3 spells are the better option at the price of more mana, it seems fine to me.
I'm quoting myself to add something else: level 3 spells have the benefit of trigering counters less often (fewer and stronger spells, so fewer counters in average).
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 12, 2021, 06:50:53 pm
Also, I always felt the last class changes come too late to be relevant for most of the game. 15/30 instead of 18/38 are much more sensible level thresholds in my opinion).
Changing the required level is not an option.


The reason why the boost would apply only to Angela, roleplay-wise, is because it is a wand, a weapon dedicated to spell casting.
Carlie's flails are made to smash heads!
Then they f(l)ail at their job.


Sure, ideally, Carlie should have a reason to care about her weapons too. But her spells are already fast, and she is already quite a capable character. Angela on the contrary needs help. Maybe we will manage to find a use for Carlie's weapons, but faster casting doesn't make sense for flails.
Maybe then the problem is that heal spells are too fast.

Instead of flat -cast time we should consider something like:
real cast time = (base of spell + base of char in base class) x 15 / (15 + weapon rank)
this would charlie a (1+60) x 15 / (15+15) = 30 cast heal light instead of 2
and angela (150+60) x 15 / (15+15) = 105 cast L3 spells instead of 151 (or 121 with -x)


I'm quoting myself to add something else: level 3 spells have the benefit of trigering counters less often (fewer and stronger spells, so fewer counters in average).
By the time the counter logic is checked any track of what spell triggered it is gone.
Not that half her classes even get L3s.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 12, 2021, 07:48:22 pm
@praetarius5018

Quote from: praetarius5018
vanilla: monster always counters spells/techs
my patch (next update): luck determines chance for those counters
10C629 - F0: monster never counter
all three: bosses can use their "desperation" moves 100%

Got it.  Thanks.  I shall update that.  Also, wow, really?  1 byte?  Holy crap.

Quote from: praetarius5018
the MT techs are just random skills they already can use at will.
afaik the basilisks that grow into petribirds and the pakkun babies that grow into lizards are the only threshold actions for regular monster.

Really?  I noticed that the enemies use their skills (not just techs, but whatever their signature moves, like Hand Axe for Goblins) when I damage them to certain point.  Some enemies, like Great Demons, you see them casting when their HP is low, so I try to kill them before they can finish their cast.  I'm sure you noticed that too.


Quote from: praetarius5018
I think that goes too far and would make walnuts and leaf saber way less useful than they are.

Hmm.  But Angela with 18 PIE (that's the max PIE for DD Angela) should be able to reach 99 Max MP though, right?  In vanilla, she reached 99 Max MP by Lv45 (21 INT + 17 PIE).  I don't know how Max MP number works, but Angela not having 99 Max MP sounds... weird.  DD Angela is already the worst of Angela's classes (in vanilla, she doesn't even get MT Lv2 spells), but nerfing her even further would be... bad.  Maybe you can make it so it's [(PIE * 3) + Level] or something.  She starts with 16 MP, and reaches 99MP by Lv46 (assuming 18 PIE).  Or maybe you can use different formula and give Angela some extra MP to begin with.

Quote from: praetarius5018
Same as I could give L2/3 techs a damage nerf only for monster - maybe I should do that as well..

But not for bosses.  Please not for bosses.  I like how Lugar/BillBen can do lots of damage with their techs (it's what made them unique).  As you probably know, enemies' techs have their own category for skill section, so I was able to nerf their powers (only MT Lv3 techs, as I like ST techs to be powerful)... except for werewolves and Shadowzeros.  Werewolves, I'm not too worried about, because there are multiple different ways to get around that... but Shadowzeros.  Oh god, Shadowzeros.  Honestly, very few people fight them, due to high risk and low reward.  I heard there's a glitch that made Shadowzeros use YOUR stats, instead of their own stats.  Maybe you can fix that.

Quote from: praetarius5018
Lv1 spells are 60, Lv2 spells 120, Lv3 spells like Ancient have a massive 150 cast time.
+1 for her having 2 class changes. -60 for best staff.
So it goes from 61, 121, 151 to 1, 61, 91...
imo that makes the Lv1 spells OP since you can get "91" out in the time she'd use one Lv3 spell.

I'd maybe agree to such a decrease instead of the class based reduction.
Though I still think a simple modifier to the heal/damage formula would be more tangible for the player; maybe both.

The goal is to make Angela's staff worth buying, right?  I mean, given how popular that "insta cast" pack from your bugfix patch is, I feel like it's something people would want.  If you think -5 cast time for each staff is too much, then maybe you can do -4, or -3, or whatever works.  Again, this is just food for thought.

But please, no buff for Carlie (at least, for spell related things).  Like I said before, Carlie is already too powerful with MT Heal Light in her 1st class up, and insta MT Heal Light by 2nd class up (she's at the very top of my tier list).

Quote from: praetarius5018
Going for an Angela only change seems weird to me; I get that she would need a buff in some way (see above).
At least Charlie would have to get a "need" weapon upgrades since she also has little use for it currently.

I might be willing to give Angela/staves a slightly bigger bonus per weapon "level" but ONLY for staves feels just wrong; it would mean that a dedicated heal bot is cheaper than a random dps.

Hmm.  I'm of everyone else's opinion here.  Angela needs help, so I don't see the problem of buffing her up a bit.  She's not supposed to be a melee character, but we want her staff to mean something.  I'm actually okay with vanilla too though (aka I don't buy her staff), as money is an issue, at least until post Lampflower.

I thought about asking you to make only her and Carlie gain 2 tech points per hit post first class change (which enables them to use techs twice as fast, which would make their weapons relevant), but I felt that was a bit TOO unfair.



@soul_knight

Heh.  I tried a long time ago to see if I can use the Squid boss.  I know his ID is 63 (weak to fire, absorbs water).  But whenever I used him in some map, the game went dark, as if I walked into a completely dark room.  I don't know how wiki got that picture, because I can't even make him exist and not be dark.  If anyone's interested, the map number is 1056 (it's not 136, despite what wiki says).  It's that Seashore Cave boss area, and the enemy that exist there has ID 63.


@Red Soul

Quote from: Red Soul
I reached the secret shop and it was a huge help, thanks HMSong! only Zable left now. Hawk and Duran's damage evened out again (I'm using Pedan gear currently) and using the Forest of Illusion enemies as a baseline (high 30s, low 40s level wise, party at Lv34).

You're welcome.  Thanks for the info about Duran vs Hawk.  Now, we know for sure that -25% damage for the double hitters work great!  Kevin is still the most powerful, but now, nowhere near as powerful as before.

Quote from: Red Soul
Also, I always felt the last class changes come too late to be relevant for most of the game.

Agreed.  Sadly, changing that will be just too much.  Way too much.  You'd want to play Sin of Mana for that, as you get your first class change in the Corridor of the Wind, and you get 2nd class change somewhere when the Godbeasts are freed.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 12, 2021, 09:35:31 pm
Changing the required level is not an option.

Because it would be hard to rebalance monsters to account for this?

November 12, 2021, 10:00:34 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
@HMSong:

Just a tiny suggestion regarding secret shop #1. Maybe it would be more aesthetically pleasing if you put the fairy (the shop triggering NPC/event) between one of the pairs of mana statues on the island, that way it could loosely symbolize the Mana Goddess is giving the player a hand. Just a thought.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Zimgief on November 13, 2021, 04:35:36 am
Quote from:  praetarius5018
Maybe then the problem is that heal spells are too fast.

Instead of flat -cast time we should consider something like:
real cast time = (base of spell + base of char in base class) x 15 / (15 + weapon rank)
this would charlie a (1+60) x 15 / (15+15) = 30 cast heal light instead of 2
and angela (150+60) x 15 / (15+15) = 105 cast L3 spells instead of 151 (or 121 with -x)
I think including the weapon rank of staves in the formula is a clean implementation (no arbitrary value for each weapon). But I'm still skeptical about doing the same for Carlie's flails (a flail is not supposed to help casting spells).
Although if you feel it is needed , nerfing Carlie's cast time is definetely an option (base of spell or base of char in base class). But I don't know her enough (never completed the game with her), would she still be an interesting character vs LD Duran ou LD Kevin in this case?

Quote from:  hmsong
Hmm.  But Angela with 18 PIE (that's the max PIE for DD Angela) should be able to reach 99 Max MP though, right?  In vanilla, she reached 99 Max MP by Lv45 (21 INT + 17 PIE).  I don't know how Max MP number works, but Angela not having 99 Max MP sounds... weird.  DD Angela is already the worst of Angela's classes (in vanilla, she doesn't even get MT Lv2 spells), but nerfing her even further would be... bad.  Maybe you can make it so it's [(PIE * 3) + Level] or something.  She starts with 16 MP, and reaches 99MP by Lv46 (assuming 18 PIE).  Or maybe you can use different formula and give Angela some extra MP to begin with.
With praetarius5018's change, Carlie will naturally get 99 MP, but not Angela. But maybe, Angela's staves (again, dedicated to spell casting) could give her bonus MP? How much would be needed, with a PIE maxed Angela?

Quote from:  praetarius5018
Then they f(l)ail at their job.
xD
Wielding such a violent weapon, maybe we can boost her max strength (+1 point in Class 1 and class 2, +2 points in Class 3, cut off in one or two other stats), to make her a viable physical attacker (and thus giving her reasons to buy flails)? I kinda like this, as it resonates with the trope of clerics in W-RPGs, healers with physical capacities, although less than actual warriors.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 13, 2021, 06:45:04 am
Got it.  Thanks.  I shall update that.  Also, wow, really?  1 byte?  Holy crap.
That F0 should've been a 80.
The 80 just makes it so the "has counter logic" check always fails.
F0 was "if it fails go to end"


Really?  I noticed that the enemies use their skills (not just techs, but whatever their signature moves, like Hand Axe for Goblins) when I damage them to certain point.  Some enemies, like Great Demons, you see them casting when their HP is low, so I try to kill them before they can finish their cast.  I'm sure you noticed that too.
I've also been axed when I enter a screen, so can go either way.


Hmm.  But Angela with 18 PIE (that's the max PIE for DD Angela) should be able to reach 99 Max MP though, right?  In vanilla, she reached 99 Max MP by Lv45 (21 INT + 17 PIE).  I don't know how Max MP number works, but Angela not having 99 Max MP sounds... weird.  DD Angela is already the worst of Angela's classes (in vanilla, she doesn't even get MT Lv2 spells), but nerfing her even further would be... bad.  Maybe you can make it so it's [(PIE * 3) + Level] or something.  She starts with 16 MP, and reaches 99MP by Lv46 (assuming 18 PIE).  Or maybe you can use different formula and give Angela some extra MP to begin with.
At level 50 she has 79 mp just from the level before +max(int, pie).
Duran gets only 49 base there.
I just wanted to simplify it to level base + PIE.
For Charlie and Angela 99 mp is inevitable, just may require 2-3 more levels at most.


Honestly, very few people fight them, due to high risk and low reward.  I heard there's a glitch that made Shadowzeros use YOUR stats, instead of their own stats.  Maybe you can fix that.
I'm pretty sure that is intentional since they transform into you.


The goal is to make Angela's staff worth buying, right?  I mean, given how popular that "insta cast" pack from your bugfix patch is, I feel like it's something people would want.  If you think -5 cast time for each staff is too much, then maybe you can do -4, or -3, or whatever works.  Again, this is just food for thought.
My goal is make Angela worth using; a change to the weapons is just one option to achieve that. Making it a char specific change though feels like it is way out of scope for a fix patch.


But please, no buff for Carlie (at least, for spell related things).  Like I said before, Carlie is already too powerful with MT Heal Light in her 1st class up, and insta MT Heal Light by 2nd class up (she's at the very top of my tier list).
If it is just for heal light... poto oil is 30 per piece in the black market, MT-able and instant as well.


Agreed.  Sadly, changing that will be just too much.  Way too much.  You'd want to play Sin of Mana for that, as you get your first class change in the Corridor of the Wind, and you get 2nd class change somewhere when the Godbeasts are freed.
2nd is more like after desert/snowfield, maybe after Lugar at the latest if you skip a ton of enemies.


some numbers:
Code: [Select]
Angela's L1 spells: x6+10
Angela's L2 spells: x8+15
Angela's L3 spells: x10+20
saint beam: x9 (no +x)
dark force: x9+15
double spell: x15 (no +x)
rainbow dust: x15+10
ancient: x15+60
Lise's light summons: x9+20
Lise's dark summons: x10+20
Hawk's shuriken: x7+20
Hawk's jutsus: x6+20
Hawk's black rain: x10+15
Hawk's poison bubble: x10+20
Hawk's spikes: x6+10
Hawk's rock fall: x6+20
Hawk's rogue traps: x7+[up to 60] (all are AGLx7 plus flat value)
Charlie's unicorn: x6 (no +x)
Charlie's golem: x6+10
Charlie's ghoul: x7+15
Charlie's ghost: x9 (no +x)
Charlie's gremlin: x7+15
Charlie's great demon: x9+10
heal light: x10+20

so angela clearly does have the strongest spells by a margin (3/4 of her classes get a x15, the 4th has death spell while all other characters are stuck at x10), she just doesn't get them while they would be relevant.

so what I'll do for the next patch:
1) player only one m.def stat powered by INT, monster keep both m.defs

2) player max MP only by PIE instead of higher of INT and PIE

3) exp bonus if you are underlevelled; +25% for 1 level, +50% for 2, +100% for 3 or more. only checks vs the highest level party member.

4.1) cast time = (base of spell + base of char in base class) x 15 / (15 + weapon rank)
this is actually a stealth advantage for angela since her spells have slightly longer base times, so the % shaves off more than the 60 from class changing.
Charlie with her best weapon will cast heal light about as fast as she did with the first class change in vanilla.

4.2) try to recreate the cast time fix

5) spell damage base = STAT x multipler + base for player only gets changed to:
STAT x (weapon rank + 4 x spell multipler - 8 ) / 4 +(weapon base/2+spell base - 9)

this cuts even with unchanged at the desert weapons (around x8+18)
and for the endgame weapon it adds 1.75 to the multipler and about 14 to the base

5.2) for heal light the multiplier gets reduced by another 1.75.
this gives the vanilla multiplier with endgame weapons but a bit more base
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 13, 2021, 07:05:50 am
@Red Soul

Quote from: Red Soul
Just a tiny suggestion regarding secret shop #1. Maybe it would be more aesthetically pleasing if you put the fairy (the shop triggering NPC/event) between one of the pairs of mana statues on the island, that way it could loosely symbolize the Mana Goddess is giving the player a hand. Just a thought.

Hmm.  The thing is, I don't want to use fairy sprite, because that'll take away the uniqueness of the fairy that's inside the main character.  However, as you said, I wanted to use a fairy.  Specifically, the idea was that one of the 3 fairies that supposedly died in the intro survived, and is living in the Island of Oblivion, but because she was weakened, she can only exist once the Mana Stones broke and the world was temporarily full of mana.  I initially used the fairy sprite, and then tried to change the color of the fairy, but that attempt failed.  So, I had to resort to the fairy light.

I actually thought about making the fairy exist in different places (all Secret Shop 1), depending on how many Godbeasts were slain (the final place would be Island of Oblivion).  I actually made that work, but I felt that having access to the Secret Shop 1 so early would be... too powerful.  So I just put the shop in the Island of Oblivion.


@Zimgief

Quote from: Zimgief
With praetarius5018's change, Carlie will naturally get 99 MP, but not Angela. But maybe, Angela's staves (again, dedicated to spell casting) could give her bonus MP? How much would be needed, with a PIE maxed Angela?

Holy crap!  That's a fantastic idea!



@praetarius5018

Okay, I take back what I said about staffs reducing the cast time.  No need to change anything about her cast time from vanilla.  Assuming PIE is specifically for Max MP, then using Zimgief's idea, I would prefer that Angela's staffs give extra Max MP instead.  That way, even with 18 PIE, she'd be able to reach 99 Max MP with one of the final staffs, and at the same time, give incentive to the players to purchase the staffs.  Two birds, one stone.

I don't know what's a good formula for the Max MP though.  Maybe it's Max MP = [PIE * 3] + [staff multiplier * 3]?  No, that'll result in everyone else having too little Max MP by the end (even Carlie).  [PIE * 5] + [staff multiplier] will result in all characters starting the game with too high MP.  What was the formula for vanilla?



Edit:  I guess you posted while I was typing this up.  Heh.

Quote from: praetarius5018
3) exp bonus if you are underlevelled; +25% for 1 level, +50% for 2, +100% for 3 or more. only checks vs the highest level party member.

Extra bonus of what?  Attack?  Max MP?

Quote from: praetarius5018
4.1) cast time = (base of spell + base of char in base class) x 15 / (15 + weapon rank)
this is actually a stealth advantage for angela since her spells have slightly longer base times, so the % shaves off more than the 60 from class changing.
Charlie with her best weapon will cast heal light about as fast as she did with the first class change in vanilla.

I'd appreciate it if you could make this into a separate patch, as I enjoy the vanilla cast time for everyone except Angela.

Quote from: praetarius5018
5) spell damage base = STAT x multipler + base for player only gets changed to:
STAT x (weapon rank + 4 x spell multipler - 8 ) / 4 +(weapon base/2+spell base - 9)

this cuts even with unchanged at the desert weapons (around x8+18)
and for the endgame weapon it adds 1.75 to the multipler and about 14 to the base

5.2) for heal light the multiplier gets reduced by another 1.75.
this gives the vanilla multiplier with endgame weapons but a bit more base

Err, I know this isn't your interest, but I wonder how that'll affect with my Balance patch...
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 13, 2021, 07:19:41 am
Extra bonus of what?  Attack?  Max MP?
EXP = experience

Err, I know this isn't your interest, but I wonder how that'll affect with my Balance patch...
depends on what exactly you've done
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 13, 2021, 07:26:18 am
depends on what exactly you've done

Changed stuff from 119941~11A7A9 (and items related to those).  That's spell's multiplier, addition, cast time, mp cost, etc.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 13, 2021, 07:29:48 am
Changed stuff from 119941~11A7A9 (and items related to those).  That's spell's multiplier, addition, cast time, mp cost, etc.
Since I planned on leaving those areas alone and just modifying the formula itself, it'd also get scaled.


Still torn between adding heal vs undead as damage (and option to switch spell target side) or not..
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 13, 2021, 08:08:26 am
Since I planned on leaving those areas alone and just modifying the formula itself, it'd also get scaled.

Oh.  Well, if the weakest spell (Unicorn Head, Lv1 spells) and the strongest (Ancient) use the same formula, then it shouldn't affect my balance THAT much.  After all, my balance didn't touch either of the extremes.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Zimgief on November 13, 2021, 09:19:18 am
One last reason in favour of a specific treatment for Angela's staves: other characters already have some unique traits.
Duran's shields. And most of all, one can consider (in a sense) that Hawk and Kevin's weapons give them dual strike without any trade-off (you even had to nerf them).
For this reason, I don't find excessive to give Angela's staves unique traits (without compromising game design), as 1) it makes sense for staves 2) she is the only one needing special treatment 3) it doesn't involve changing magic formulas for other people, which are already fine 4) Kevin and Hawk's weapons already have unique traits. So:
- Staves can increase cast time and/or MP (to get to 99).
- Angela's spells can be reworked to give a better bonus from INT.
But as I said, it's the last time I defend the idea, I don't want to bother you!

Carlie's higher strength: bad idea?

Quote
Still torn between adding heal vs undead as damage (and option to switch spell target side) or not..
If the option to switch spell target side affects all spells, I like the idea! Can a player reflect a spell they cast on themselves in order to hit an enemy who also reflects spells, like in Final Fantasy?

Quote
Angela's L1 spells: x6+10
Angela's L2 spells: x8+15
Angela's L3 spells: x10+20
saint beam: x9 (no +x)
dark force: x9+15
double spell: x15 (no +x)
rainbow dust: x15+10
ancient: x15+60
Lise's light summons: x9+20
Lise's dark summons: x10+20
Hawk's shuriken: x7+20
Hawk's jutsus: x6+20
Hawk's black rain: x10+15
Hawk's poison bubble: x10+20
Hawk's spikes: x6+10
Hawk's rock fall: x6+20
Hawk's rogue traps: x7+[up to 60] (all are AGLx7 plus flat value)
Charlie's unicorn: x6 (no +x)
Charlie's golem: x6+10
Charlie's ghoul: x7+15
Charlie's ghost: x9 (no +x)
Charlie's gremlin: x7+15
Charlie's great demon: x9+10
heal light: x10+20
I remember people complaining summons are too weak. It could be the occasion to change that (but I don't know much myself, never tried them).
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 13, 2021, 09:37:51 am
One last reason in favour of a specific treatment for Angela's staves: other characters already have some unique traits.
Duran's shields. And most of all, one can consider (in a sense) that Hawk and Kevin's weapons give them dual strike without any trade-off (you even had to nerf them).
For this reason, I don't find excessive to give Angela's staves unique traits (without compromising game design), as 1) it makes sense for staves 2) she is the only one needing special treatment 3) it doesn't involve changing magic formulas for other people, which are already fine. So:
- Staves can increase cast time and/or MP (to get to 99).
- Angela's spells can be reworked to give a better bonus from INT.
But as I said, it's the last time I defend the idea, I don't want to bother you!

Carlie's higher strength: bad idea?
imo, yes.
she already has healing, decent spell damage (saint beam may only be x9 but it is the best element in endgame so it may just as well be x13.5; turn undead's 999 vs undead), (de)buffs; usable melee damage is the only thing she doesn't have.
her dark classes kinda suck. black curse is the only good spell I see there.
demon breath may be aoe, magic down and x10+15 but it is dark and INT based.
great demon is x9+10 which is nothing to write home about for a single target "ultimate"


If the option to switch spell target side affects all spells, I like the idea! Can a player reflect a spell they cast on themselves in order to hit an enemy who also reflects spells, like in Final Fantasy?
reflected spells go back to the caster.
heal light vs undead would be its only use here, really.
in sin of mana there are a couple of other mechanics that allow it to be more useful, like an armor that turns buffs into debuffs and vice versa,
giving a touch melee boss a saber that your whole team resists
or casting life booster on a boss to boost the damage of upgraded half vanish (%maxHP damage instead of %curHP with a class specific weapon)


I remember people complaining summons are too weak. It could be the occasion to change that (but as I said, I don't know much about her).
tbh, I'd give them an element but as enchanter she only has 2 summons so she can't really cover much.



edit: and v1.8 submitted
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on November 13, 2021, 05:53:11 pm
Awesome!  Looking forward to trying it.

Btw, what's the vanilla formula for Max MP?  And what's the bugfix's formula for Max MP?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 13, 2021, 05:55:23 pm
Awesome!  Looking forward to trying it.

Btw, what's the vanilla formula for Max MP?  And what's the bugfix's formula for Max MP?
You have a base value by level that varies by character then add the higher of int and pie to it.
My hack just removes int as an option.

HP is the same: gigantic base value by level and character and then add 1.5x VIT, no idea why they bothered if they made it that small.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: taikyoku on November 13, 2021, 06:08:25 pm
Just wanna say that Sin of Mana is one of the best hacks of a video game ever made. Thank you, praetarius5018.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on November 13, 2021, 06:10:08 pm
You have a base value by level that varies by character then add the higher of int and pie to it.
My hack just removes int as an option.

Sorry, but what is "higher" of Int/Pie?  I'm not familiar with that term, but based on the context, I'm guessing it's "factor" or something.  Also if you removed the higher of Int, but not add anything to it, then does that mean everyone will now have lower Max MP?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 13, 2021, 06:28:12 pm
Sorry, but what is "higher" of Int/Pie?  I'm not familiar with that term, but based on the context, I'm guessing it's "factor" or something.
max(pie,int)
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on November 13, 2021, 06:46:29 pm
max(pie,int)

Argh.  I don't know what that means.  I'm guessing it's some sort of programmer thing.  Haha.  But based on what I see, I guess the current Pie gets both bonuses of vanilla Int and Pie for the Max MP, right?  Similar to how current Int got the both bonuses of vanilla Int and Pie for M.Def.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 13, 2021, 06:59:37 pm
Sorry, but what is "higher" of Int/Pie?  I'm not familiar with that term, but based on the context, I'm guessing it's "factor" or something.
try it with example values:
If I told you to choose the higher number out of 5 and 10, what would you do? multiply them!???
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on November 13, 2021, 07:06:19 pm
try it with example values:
If I told you to choose the higher number out of 5 and 10, what would you do? multiply them!???

No, I would choose 10.  So I guess that's how max() works.  It simply chooses the higher number between the two.  Boy, that's gonna suck for Angela.

Bugfix v1.8 is up.  Everyone check it out.  Seems like there was a lot of changes.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 14, 2021, 03:56:38 am
@praetarius5018

Quote from: praetarius5018
vanilla: monster always counters spells/techs
my patch (next update): luck determines chance for those counters
10C629 - 80: monster never counter
all three: bosses can use their "desperation" moves 100%

Hey, I was testing out 10C629 80, and indeed, the monster never counters.  So a different related question.  What's the difference between 10C629 80 and 10C62B EA EA EA?  Is it the compatibility issue with your recent bugfix patch? (ex: the new Luck Denies Counter)  Or maybe there's some sort of flaw with 10C62B EA EA EA?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 14, 2021, 04:35:42 am
Hey, I was testing out 10C629 80, and indeed, the monster never counters.  So a different related question.  What's the difference between 10C629 80 and 10C62B EA EA EA?  Is it the compatibility issue with your recent bugfix patch? (ex: the new Luck Denies Counter)  Or maybe there's some sort of flaw with 10C62B EA EA EA?
think of it like this:

vanilla code:
Code: [Select]
if (X or Y or Z) {
   checkAI();
}

10C629 80:
Code: [Select]
if (X or Y /*or Z*/) {
   checkAI();
}

10C62B EA EA EA:
Code: [Select]
if (X or Y or Z) {
   //checkAI();
}
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: aitchfactor on November 14, 2021, 05:02:09 am
Well, I'm basically a newcomer here and I've discovered this thread after I've submitted the relevant hack, but I recently slapped together a very basic hack that only changes a few drum samples (kick, snare, tambourine, snare "reverb"), since I've always felt they were lacking in comparison to Secret of Mana. Of the changes I've made I've tried to accommodate for the two samples I know for sure are also used for sound effects, but I've completely replaced the snare and I'm hoping it won't have any adverse effects. Also, since the only change has been to replace some bits of sample data with another, I think it'll probably be compatible with most other hacks.

Here's a couple examples of how my custom samples sound:
https://files.catbox.moe/iqrb3l.ogg (https://files.catbox.moe/iqrb3l.ogg) (Hightension Wire)
https://files.catbox.moe/wcfas8.ogg (https://files.catbox.moe/wcfas8.ogg) (Left-Handed Wolf)
Unfortunately some songs end up sounding slightly worse imo, like this one:
https://files.catbox.moe/ve1day.ogg (Weird Counterpoint)

So, is anyone usually interested in this sort of thing? And has someone done something like this before?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 14, 2021, 08:09:04 am
think of it like this:

vanilla code:
Code: [Select]
if (X or Y or Z) {
   checkAI();
}

10C629 80:
Code: [Select]
if (X or Y /*or Z*/) {
   checkAI();
}

10C62B EA EA EA:
Code: [Select]
if (X or Y or Z) {
   //checkAI();
}

So, let me see if I understand correctly, because I don't know what "/*" and "//" means.  Assuming 10C629 80 is #2, and 10C62B EA EA EA is #3...

#2:  If the condition X or Y is fulfilled, AI does something (in this case, AI uses a skill).
#3:  If the condition X or Y or Z is fulfilled, AI does nothing.

In other words, #3 may prevent enemies from using their skills in something other than counters of player magic.  Do I understand correctly?



@aitchfactor

Boy, do I suck at recognizing music.  Can you post the vanilla musics too, so that it's easier to compare?

For your question if people are interested, I don't know.  I'm only speaking for myself, but I never even thought about it.  Having said that, people often don't know how much they wanted something, until the said something comes into existence.  Perhaps what you did may be one of such thing.  The only way to find out is to create it, and see people's reaction.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 14, 2021, 08:44:59 am
So, let me see if I understand correctly, because I don't know what "/*" and "//" means.
Ok, now I've literally no idea anymore on what level of programming experience you are; a bit earlier we had the discussion about potential difference in order of operation for math on asm level but here now you don't know about uncommenting. :o

Assuming 10C629 80 is #2, and 10C62B EA EA EA is #3...

#2:  If the condition X or Y is fulfilled, AI does something (in this case, AI uses a skill).
#3:  If the condition X or Y or Z is fulfilled, AI does nothing.

In other words, #3 may prevent enemies from using their skills in something other than counters of player magic.  Do I understand correctly?
But yes you understood it correctly.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Pethronos on November 14, 2021, 01:06:16 pm
Well, I'm basically a newcomer here and I've discovered this thread after I've submitted the relevant hack, but I recently slapped together a very basic hack that only changes a few drum samples (kick, snare, tambourine, snare "reverb"), since I've always felt they were lacking in comparison to Secret of Mana. Of the changes I've made I've tried to accommodate for the two samples I know for sure are also used for sound effects, but I've completely replaced the snare and I'm hoping it won't have any adverse effects. Also, since the only change has been to replace some bits of sample data with another, I think it'll probably be compatible with most other hacks.

Here's a couple examples of how my custom samples sound:
https://files.catbox.moe/iqrb3l.ogg (https://files.catbox.moe/iqrb3l.ogg) (Hightension Wire)
https://files.catbox.moe/wcfas8.ogg (https://files.catbox.moe/wcfas8.ogg) (Left-Handed Wolf)
Unfortunately some songs end up sounding slightly worse imo, like this one:
https://files.catbox.moe/ve1day.ogg (Weird Counterpoint)

So, is anyone usually interested in this sort of thing? And has someone done something like this before?

Personally I love this kind of stuff. You can find similar hacks in RHDN, i.e. sample improvements for some Megadrive/Genesis games, by Master Linkuei (https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/5508/).

SD3 snare is really distinctive, maybe... too much. I'm sure that some people will thank you for sharing a more SoM reminiscent drum set. Thank you!  :beer:
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Messianic on November 14, 2021, 03:30:48 pm
Slightly off topic, but I despise Mispolm’s battle music being the seaside cave music. I also notice Genova’s music seems to only be played for him. What is the ROM address for Mispolm’s battle music, and what byte would I have to change it to to give Genova’s music to Mispolm?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 14, 2021, 06:39:20 pm
Ok, now I've literally no idea anymore on what level of programming experience you are; a bit earlier we had the discussion about potential difference in order of operation for math on asm level but here now you don't know about uncommenting. :o

There's a reason for that.  I'm sure you now have a vague feeling, but I'll say it anyways.  I actually never learned anything about official programming.  I started learning (when I literally had no knowledge about hacking) when the guy who worked on Secret of Mana Turbo (Queue) taught me how to edit some of the things he created.  Actually, there were multiple people who taught me, but Queue was the main guy.  That was about two years ago.  I would ask him, "I have this idea, and if I wanted to change X into Y, how would I do that?", and he would say, "Download HxH, open the ROM with that, search for address ZZZZZZ, and change the value there from XX to YY."  And thus began.  I would often have some ideas here and there, and when I ask him to do something and it was something easy, he would then tell me the addresses of how to employ my ideas, and then tell me to work on it myself.  His ZPS made things easier to understand, because he would often leave comments on why and how he did something for his compilation hack.

In short, the only knowledge I have is how to edit something, if I know the address, and what each values mean.  For example, my biggest hack for SD3 is the Class Balance patch.  And you taught me the specific address of character learning table and the spell edits (starting with Diamond Missile), and told me that each spell was 17 bytes (one of the first posts).  You also told me what some of those 17 bytes meant (such as how power of spells worked).  The spell orders, I got that from gamefaqs PAR code guide.  And I lined up all of the 17 bytes in a line, to see if I can see any pattern.  From there, I was able to edit things to my image and test things out.

As you can see, my knowledge is almost non-existent, esp the basic knowledge.  When we had the discussion about potential difference in order of operation for math on asm level, I spoke based solely on my gut feeling, rather than a specific knowledge about programming.  It was someone else who explained what I tried to explain.  Actually, I still don't know much about asm (if at all).  I know you tried to teach me that, but it was... above my level of understanding, as it turned out.  I still don't know how the operation for math on asm works.  For example, you told me the rough addresses and where the end math functions are (ex: evade), but I have no idea what any of the values mean (What value is "+"?  What value is "Agility"?  Some seem to be more than 1 byte, Etc).  Kinda like that. :P

Despite my limited knowledge though, I was able to create these things, all thanks to you teaching me (some things I learned, other things I failed to learn).  I think it was also you who told me about MapJester, which allowed me to create the Black Rabite hack and Better Monsters hack.

Btw, what would happen if I used 10C62B EA EA EA with your v1.8?  Would some of the things you did in your hack not work properly?  This is just out of curiosity, as I would still use 10C629 80 (I'll post them today, as well as the evade change hack).
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: aitchfactor on November 14, 2021, 08:07:15 pm
Thanks for the kind words. Hopefully people will want to try my hack out once it's approved.

Boy, do I suck at recognizing music.  Can you post the vanilla musics too, so that it's easier to compare?

https://files.catbox.moe/4azww1.ogg (Hightension Wire)
https://files.catbox.moe/9tkk1a.ogg (Left-Handed Wolf)
https://files.catbox.moe/5dgfld.ogg (Weird Counterpoint)

Happy to provide any other comparisons if desired.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Uberdubie on November 14, 2021, 11:22:20 pm
Thanks for the kind words. Hopefully people will want to try my hack out once it's approved.

https://files.catbox.moe/4azww1.ogg (Hightension Wire)
https://files.catbox.moe/9tkk1a.ogg (Left-Handed Wolf)
https://files.catbox.moe/5dgfld.ogg (Weird Counterpoint)

Happy to provide any other comparisons if desired.

These are fantastic!  I already checked out the vanilla versions to compare on Youtube because I found this very interesting and worthwhile.  Definitely one of those things I didn't know I wanted, but now it's needed lol.  Out of these samples they are ALL sound incredible imo, including Weird Counterpoint which you didn't think sounded as good -- I beg to differ! :thumbsup:

Any chance you can post a few more samples of your versions, specifically those that you found to be much worse (such as The Sacrifice, Part Two)?  I love the nostalgic SoM sound to them, on top of the fact you did a great job with these.  I definitely plan to get around to trying this out for myself when I get the chance!
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: aitchfactor on November 15, 2021, 12:38:13 am
These are fantastic!  I already checked out the vanilla versions to compare on Youtube because I found this very interesting and worthwhile.  Definitely one of those things I didn't know I wanted, but now it's needed lol.  Out of these samples they are ALL sound incredible imo, including Weird Counterpoint which you didn't think sounded as good -- I beg to differ! :thumbsup:

Any chance you can post a few more samples of your versions, specifically those that you found to be much worse (such as The Sacrifice, Part Two)?  I love the nostgalic SoM sound to them, on top of the fact you did a great job with these.  I definitely plan to get around to trying this out for myself when I get the chance!
Thank you! Here's a zip file with the other three tracks I consider worsened (The Sacrifice Part Two, Rolling Cradle, Three of Darkside) and a couple other picks, in their original and remixed form. https://files.catbox.moe/wney4a.zip
Now I'd say the worst off is either The Sacrifice, Part Two or Three of Darkside.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on November 15, 2021, 02:56:51 am
@praetarius5018

Hey.  For your recent bugfix, how does Luck Denies Counter work?  I know it says, "(15+target level/2) for regular enemies," but what does that mean?  For example, let's say that my Luck is 10.  And the normal enemy's level is Lv21.  If I use some magic on the enemy, it's (15+21/2) = 25.5.  So the counter deny chance is 10/25.5, which is 39.2%?

Also, for the added exp rubberband mechanic, the txt seem to imply that I get more exp if my highest leveled char is lower level than the enemy I kill, but how does that work?  Is it what you said earlier in another post?  +25% for -1 level, +50% for -2 level, and +100% for -3 or more levels?

I saw that you changed the spell strength will now depend on weapons.  That's cool.  Does that apply to enemies as well?  I don't know what weapon they wear, but I guess they're wearing something.

When I leveled up Angela and did not give PIE, I saw that my Max MP still went up.  Is that normal?

So I guess there's ghost ship glitch if 3 player hack is used.  Based on the description, if I leave player 1 as ghost, and use the other 2 players, but I save and load, then the game crashes?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 15, 2021, 03:01:44 am
I ran a quick test and aitchfactor's "Seiken Densetsu 3 (Japan) sample swap.ips" patch worked fine in my current ROM, even when applied last (it contains Praetarius' Bugfix 1.7, HMSong's Class Balance Bundle and Item Shop Changes, the fan translation as well as a myriad of cosmetic patches.

I will keep testing, but it seems to work fine (I assume the ROM needs to be unheadered and users patching in the audio changes later need to be mindful of this).

November 15, 2021, 03:05:25 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
So I guess there's ghost ship glitch if 3 player hack is used.  Based on the description, if I leave player 1 as ghost, and use the other 2 players, but I save and load, then the game crashes?

I believe that's what happens. In case it renders the save file useless, I'd make a copy somewhere before getting onto the ship.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 15, 2021, 01:09:44 pm
Hey.  For your recent bugfix, how does Luck Denies Counter work?  I know it says, "(15+target level/2) for regular enemies," but what does that mean?  For example, let's say that my Luck is 10.  And the normal enemy's level is Lv21.  If I use some magic on the enemy, it's (15+21/2) = 25.5.  So the counter deny chance is 10/25.5, which is 39.2%?
You got that right.


Also, for the added exp rubberband mechanic, the txt seem to imply that I get more exp if my highest leveled char is lower level than the enemy I kill, but how does that work?  Is it what you said earlier in another post?  +25% for -1 level, +50% for -2 level, and +100% for -3 or more levels
Yeah, like that except the typical rounding issues; and you get at least 1 exp more per level.


I saw that you changed the spell strength will now depend on weapons.  That's cool.  Does that apply to enemies as well?  I don't know what weapon they wear, but I guess they're wearing something.
It explicitly says "spell strength for player"; monster keep whatever they had before.
Also for the record all equip slots on monster are empty.


When I leveled up Angela and did not give PIE, I saw that my Max MP still went up.  Is that normal?
Yes that should be right; you always have a base value of HP&MP for a given level and then add 1.5xVIT to HP and 1xPIE to MP. E.g. lv50 Angela has 79 mp base.


So I guess there's ghost ship glitch if 3 player hack is used.  Based on the description, if I leave player 1 as ghost, and use the other 2 players, but I save and load, then the game crashes?
The whole ghost ship save slot is bugged; if you save there while one party member is missing and then load the same it either crashes immediatly or after you beat the boss.
Also the game is not too happy when player 1 controls no character so you should never do the ghostification event as player 1 when player 2&3 are active.


There's a reason for that.  I'm sure you now have a vague feeling, but I'll say it anyways.  I actually never learned anything about official programming.
I guessed as much, which then confused me a lot when you started with the order of operating crap.


What value is "+"?  What value is "Agility"?  Some seem to be more than 1 byte, Etc
And that's where the fun starts :p
You have no standalone "+".
You have to also tell it "+" what;
e.g. "+1" is just 1A,
a fix "+x" is 69 xx (or 69 xx xx if we're in 16bit mode)
or if you want to add the value from address 7E2000 you do 6F 00 20 7E.
And for something like +AGL you'll get into pointer fun and then do e.g. 7D xx xx or 71 xx depending on how you want to get screwed by pointers.
there are at least 16 "+something" codes, another equal sized batch for "-something" and except for x2 or x0.5 multiplication does not exist in some simple fashion...

and lets just not get into the mess that is the compressed code, there nothing makes sense anymore.


Btw, what would happen if I used 10C62B EA EA EA with your v1.8?  Would some of the things you did in your hack not work properly?  This is just out of curiosity, as I would still use 10C629 80 (I'll post them today, as well as the evade change hack).
It would still work it would just maybe disable some other (re)actions we want to keep alive. There's technically no real restriction where the program can come from to arrive at 10C62B, so there could be a dozen edge cases out there that want to call the "reaction logic" there but now can't.
If you happen to have heard of the horrible command "GOTO" in higher level languages, that exists here too ofc.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on November 15, 2021, 06:56:36 pm

Hey.  For your recent bugfix, how does Luck Denies Counter work?  I know it says, "(15+target level/2) for regular enemies," but what does that mean?  For example, let's say that my Luck is 10.  And the normal enemy's level is Lv21.  If I use some magic on the enemy, it's (15+21/2) = 25.5.  So the counter deny chance is 10/25.5, which is 39.2%?

You got that right.

Hmm.  Based on that calculation, even Hawkeye, who can have 22 Luck (enemy level will probably around 50), he'll only deny 55% of enemy skills (and 44% for bosses).  That seems... quite small.  Wasn't the idea to be around 70~80% denial if Luck is kept up for Hawkeye? (if it's too low, then it'll force players to stick with the boring melee, as the cost of using skill will outweigh the benefit of using skills, just like what people did for vanilla)  I feel like instead of "+15", it should be "+5", to match the previous "out of 30" for regular enemies.  That was a good number, and "+15" for bosses (instead of +25), esp if you consider that bosses' HP threshold moves are now guaranteed.

Edit:  I just did calculation for Lv21 enemies and 13 Luck Hawkeye (maximum for Lv21 Hawkeye).  If it's +5, then the denial is ~84% (13/(5+21/2)).  Based on the pattern, I'm guessing the lower level you are with Luck kept up (and fighting the enemies of same level), the higher chance of denial.  I'm actually okay with high denial percentage though, esp in the early parts when you have less resource.  So I still think that +5 would be a better number.

It explicitly says "spell strength for player"; monster keep whatever they had before.
Also for the record all equip slots on monster are empty.

Whoops.  Sorry.  Apparently, I suck at reading.

Yes that should be right; you always have a base value of HP&MP for a given level and then add 1.5xVIT to HP and 1xPIE to MP. E.g. lv50 Angela has 79 mp base.

So level 50 Angela DD will have 97 MP?  Can you get higher MP if you level up more? (I typically end up with Lv53 characters by the end of the game).

The whole ghost ship save slot is bugged; if you save there while one party member is missing and then load the same it either crashes immediatly or after you beat the boss.
Also the game is not too happy when player 1 controls no character so you should never do the ghostification event as player 1 when player 2&3 are active.

Thanks for the info.  No more 3-player patch for my rom.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 15, 2021, 11:34:53 pm
And that's where the fun starts :p
You have no standalone "+".
You have to also tell it "+" what;
e.g. "+1" is just 1A,
a fix "+x" is 69 xx (or 69 xx xx if we're in 16bit mode)
or if you want to add the value from address 7E2000 you do 6F 00 20 7E.
And for something like +AGL you'll get into pointer fun and then do e.g. 7D xx xx or 71 xx depending on how you want to get screwed by pointers.
there are at least 16 "+something" codes, another equal sized batch for "-something" and except for x2 or x0.5 multiplication does not exist in some simple fashion...

'_';;

I got 69 xx (or 69 xx xx).  But how did +1 result in 1A?  I doubt +15 is FA, because that'll result in that you can't use any number bigger than 15.  And the rest... well, jeez.  I'm amazed how far I got with my extremely limited skills.  It's like I wrote a book without knowing all the alphabets.

It would still work it would just maybe disable some other (re)actions we want to keep alive. There's technically no real restriction where the program can come from to arrive at 10C62B, so there could be a dozen edge cases out there that want to call the "reaction logic" there but now can't.
If you happen to have heard of the horrible command "GOTO" in higher level languages, that exists here too ofc.

Yeah, I guess so.  Well, I updated to 10C629 80.  If anyone notices something, I suppose they'll notify me or something.

Regarding soul_knight's opinion on Luck Denies Skills, I second his opinion.  The logic of his argument makes sense -- if the denial is too low, then it'll just make players go back to the vanilla behavior, which is melee melee melee (which will result in Angela doing nothing).  I think +5 is indeed good number (although I think regular enemies shouldn't counter at all, and bosses should have low counter chance).  It'll make players think, "I like to use skills, but it has 20% to make enemies counter.  Gah, it's worth it!"  I like the sound of that.  I mean, casters like Angela will already have tough time raising Luck, because she'll be too busy raising VIT, INT, and PIE (no time to raise Luck until the end of the game).  And if it's only ~50%, then it's even worse.



@For anyone interested:

Here are the boss levels, in order of encounter (vanilla):

Full Metal Hagger: 4
Machine Golem: 4
Jewel Eater: 6
Tzenker: 10
Genova: 12
Bill/Ben: 12
Gorva: 13
Machine Golem: 18
Bill/Ben: 18
Lugar: 21
Gildervine: 24
Godbeasts: 29~40 (+2 for each godbeast kills, until lv40)
Zable-Fahr: 46
Darkshine Knight/Deathjester/Jagan: 44
The three bosses inside the final dungeon: 45~47
Koren/Heath/Bigeau: 48, except Bigeau, who is 51
Final bosses: 50
Black Rabite: 99
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 16, 2021, 03:01:15 am
@HMSong:

I know it wasn't exactly what you specificed, but I downloaded a different save to test some things and I have some field data for you:

Quote
vs. Lv41 Guardian

Lv44 Sword Master Duran
     20str/Levateinn (297 atk)

127-128 (224-225)


Lv44 Ninja Master Hawk
     17 str/Acala (258 atk)

67-68 x2 (168-172)

Lv44 Death Hand Kevin
     18 str/Rotten Knuckle (271 atk)

77-87 x2 (162-163) Daytime

97-98 x2 (182-183) Nighttime

It's mostly empirical data but I hope it is worth for something. Numbers in parentheses are criticals.
Oddly, NM Hawk didn't fire off a single critical without energy ball being applied first, Kevin's crits came off only rarely.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 16, 2021, 07:37:50 am
@HMSong:

I know it wasn't exactly what you specificed, but I downloaded a different save to test some things and I have some field data for you:

It's mostly empirical data but I hope it is worth for something. Numbers in parentheses are criticals.
Oddly, NM Hawk didn't fire off a single critical without energy ball being applied first, Kevin's crits came off only rarely.

Thanks for field testing.  I see that Duran will actually outdamage Hawk by the end, at least for non-DD Duran vs DL Hawk.  In your provided data, Hawk's STR was maxed (17 is max STR for Ninja Master), while Duran's STR was not maxed (21 is max STR for all Duran classes, except DD, who has 22 STR).  Not sure about DD Hawk (18) vs DD Duran (22), but they ought to be close.  I'm not sure how strong Guardian's DEF is, relative to other later monsters, but I'm guessing Duran will outdamage Hawk even more as the game progresses, because their DEF will continue to go up.  Please keep me updated for Lv45~47 enemies (they have the same stats, except HP) -- specifically, against Dark Lord, High Wizard, and Great Demon (they have various DEF stats).  I want to see how Kevin (non-werewolf) and Hawk do against Duran with 21 STR.  Thanks in advance.

If possible, can you keep Kevin at 18 STR for the field test vs lv45~47 enemies? (instead of raising it to 19, which is max for Death Hand)  Average max STR for Kevin is 18 (Hawk = 17, Duran = 21), and I want to compare the info regarding those guys.  The weapons should be the same level though (all Pedan, or all final).



@praetarius5018

If possible, can you make it so that AntiMagic nulls the magic resist?  Not Immunity though (as you pointed out, that'll make Moon Saber way too powerful against many bosses).  I actually hope AntiMagic nulls reflect/absorb/immune/resist for all elements except Moon (to specifically nerf Moon Saber) and possibly Leaf, but I don't think you'll like that.

Also, could you make it so that Poison SE cannot be overwritten by Chibikko SE? (if it's applied, it'll cause both Poison and Chibikko SE)  That way, things like Tinkle Rain, Puipui Grass, and Mama Poto Oil won't become obsolete the moment you get Chibikko Hammer (which is quite early in the game).  Only when it comes to poison and chibikko SEs though (I think other SEs will conflict badly with each other, such as Chibikko/Freeze/Moogle/Stone).  I do think other SEs should be able to overwrite other SEs (which is vanilla behavior), as that'll make Moogle Belt very unique and useful (which can only be gotten from Black Rabite).

Btw, I absolutely love the idea of exp bonus if underleveled.  That is an amazing idea, and such anti-frustration feature.  I absolutely love anti-frustration ideas.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 16, 2021, 12:43:29 pm
I feel like instead of "+15", it should be "+5", to match the previous "out of 30" for regular enemies.  That was a good number, and "+15" for bosses (instead of +25), esp if you consider that bosses' HP threshold moves are now guaranteed.
I'll consider it.


So level 50 Angela DD will have 97 MP?  Can you get higher MP if you level up more? (I typically end up with Lv53 characters by the end of the game).
You get from Lv45 to 54 no MP increases but afterwards everyone gains 1-2 MP per level up to a cap of 99.

Lv45 is 49 MP for Duran, 54 for Kevin, 59 for Hawk, 79 for Angela and Charlie and 65 for Lise.



Thanks for the info.  No more 3-player patch for my rom.
You can still use it when you play with 2 buddies, you should just send one of the players to grab some sandwiches or something when the ghostship starts.


But how did +1 result in 1A?  I doubt +15 is FA, because that'll result in that you can't use any number bigger than 15.
1A is just a shorthand like "x++" for "x=x+1") in most modern languages. FA pulls the topmost number from the stack in shoves it into the accumulator X; any form of stack manipulation without knowing wtf you do is a fast track to crashing the whole emulator.

I think it'd be easier to think of it like functions with 0-3 bytes worth of parameters instead of your standard math operators.

Code: [Select]
1A:
function addOne() {
   A++;
}

69:
function add(value) {
   A=A+value;
}


I mean, casters like Angela will already have tough time raising Luck, because she'll be too busy raising VIT, INT, and PIE (no time to raise Luck until the end of the game).
That's not really a good argument.
Angela can skip on STR and AGL.
Melee can really only skip on PIE (+1 MP each is the lowest priority in my book).
STR for damage. VIT to stay alive vs random mobs. INT to stay alive vs bosses. AGL to hit (=damage) and evade. LUCK for crits (=damage).


If possible, can you make it so that AntiMagic nulls the magic resist?  Not Immunity though (as you pointed out, that'll make Moon Saber way too powerful against many bosses).  I actually hope AntiMagic nulls reflect/absorb/immune/resist for all elements except Moon (to specifically nerf Moon Saber) and possibly Leaf, but I don't think you'll like that.
I'd find it weird if anti-magic removes the lesser "resistance" and the higher "absorb" but leaves the middle ground "immunity" alone.


Also, could you make it so that Poison SE cannot be overwritten by Chibikko SE? (if it's applied, it'll cause both Poison and Chibikko SE)  That way, things like Tinkle Rain, Puipui Grass, and Mama Poto Oil won't become obsolete the moment you get Chibikko Hammer (which is quite early in the game).  Only when it comes to poison and chibikko SEs though (I think other SEs will conflict badly with each other, such as Chibikko/Freeze/Moogle/Stone).  I do think other SEs should be able to overwrite other SEs (which is vanilla behavior), as that'll make Moogle Belt very unique and useful (which can only be gotten from Black Rabite).
I made it so in my other hack that the hammer fails when you have a different status but left body change alone.


Btw, I absolutely love the idea of exp bonus if underleveled.  That is an amazing idea, and such anti-frustration feature.  I absolutely love anti-frustration ideas.
Got any other ideas?


Thanks for field testing.  I see that Duran will actually outdamage Hawk by the end, at least for non-DD Duran vs DL Hawk
I think that Hawk is actually far ahead with his critical rate; both get about +100 damage per crit but Hawk attacks twice as often.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 16, 2021, 03:56:42 pm
If possible, can you keep Kevin at 18 STR for the field test vs lv45~47 enemies? (instead of raising it to 19, which is max for Death Hand)  Average max STR for Kevin is 18 (Hawk = 17, Duran = 21), and I want to compare the info regarding those guys.  The weapons should be the same level though (all Pedan, or all final).

Oh, I ended up raising Kevin's STR, sorry. In case  idon't have an earlier save I'll keep going as is, I guess.
I wonder if Guardians have some sort of innate defense against criticals, since they only happened with energy ball active against them.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Pethronos on November 16, 2021, 04:28:39 pm
Thanks for the info.  No more 3-player patch for my rom.

Hi all! Concerning the recently mentioned "3 players in ghost ship" bug, it reminded me that the Spanish translation (engrossing project for its time, like English translation also was) contained the 3 players hack. I decided reverting that situation, so just submitted a simple patch that reverts the 3 player hack changes, for unheadered roms.

Moreover, I've happily checked that this makes the Spanish translation fully compatible with Praetarius Fixes (I don't know if previous version was, since depending of patching order, CRC32 was different, which means the patches affected each other in some way).

Not a "greatest hit", but maybe some hispanic speakers thank me ;D

 :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 16, 2021, 04:31:50 pm
Oh, I ended up raising Kevin's STR, sorry. In case  idon't have an earlier save I'll keep going as is, I guess.
I wonder if Guardians have some sort of innate defense against criticals, since they only happened with energy ball active against them.
Don't see anything like that there... sometimes hit them for 105, other for 207. Chance in code is just (LUCK+2)%, no reductions or negations.
No idea why you don't see a difference.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Messianic on November 16, 2021, 04:37:54 pm
@praetarius

I am of the minority position that Luck Denies Counter should NOT be incredibly strong because Luck is also granting crit, better luck on chests, and reduced status ailment times. Just throwing it out that I think Hawkeye with maxed Luck only denying 44% of boss counters is ALREADY very strong.

No need to make Luck overpowered.



Does anyone know the ROM address for the boss music table? Specifically which boss gets what music? I want to change to byte for Mispolm to be the same as Genova has
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Zimgief on November 16, 2021, 04:53:51 pm
@praetarius

I am of the minority position that Luck Denies Counter should NOT be incredibly strong because Luck is also granting crit, better luck on chests, and reduced status ailment times. Just throwing it out that I think Hawkeye with maxed Luck only denying 44% of boss counters is ALREADY very strong.

No need to make Luck overpowered.
I agree. ^^ The patch is already a huge improvement for LUCK, and using spells/techs.

For now, I let other people test the new version of the hack for debugging and balance purposes (I'm curious about Angela without instant cast, notably). I never touched the game since I was a teen (35 years old here), so I want to play the game for real in perfect conditions (and with my partner). :p

Are there other planned changes?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 16, 2021, 05:00:55 pm
Don't see anything like that there... sometimes hit them for 105, other for 207. Chance in code is just (LUCK+2)%, no reductions or negations.
No idea why you don't see a difference.

I don't know either. SRAM should have absolutely no impact on mechanics, right? it's not like I'm loading savestates from vanilla or anything on top of the patched game, I only downloaded a SRAM file and loaded it naturally before I began testing.

November 16, 2021, 05:08:39 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Not a "greatest hit", but maybe some hispanic speakers thank me ;D
 :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:

The way I see it, the more people have access to these wonderful fixes and rebalances the better, in as many languages as possible. You are doing speakers of Spanish a great service.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on November 16, 2021, 05:59:24 pm
@praetarius

I am of the minority position that Luck Denies Counter should NOT be incredibly strong because Luck is also granting crit, better luck on chests, and reduced status ailment times. Just throwing it out that I think Hawkeye with maxed Luck only denying 44% of boss counters is ALREADY very strong.

No need to make Luck overpowered.

I agree. ^^ The patch is already a huge improvement for LUCK, and using spells/techs.

Well, the goal was to make "using attack skills more viable", right?  If the enemy counters half the time (even after maxing out the Luck), then it'll just make the players NOT use skills, and go right back to the vanilla strategy, which was to use melee forever.  The entire point of creating Luck Denies Counters was to encourage players to be not afraid of using attack skills, but still have that "enemy might end up using counters if I'm unlucky" thing.

And remember, the recent fix made it so that HP threshold moves are guaranteed.  That means you're not gonna come across things like Gildervine and Archdemon and Lugar not transforming, or Black Rabite not using his spell combos, or some other weird things from the previous patch.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 16, 2021, 06:03:01 pm
Well, the goal was to make "using attack skills more viable", right?  If the enemy counters half the time (even after maxing out the Luck), then it'll just make the players NOT use skills, and go right back to the vanilla strategy, which was to use melee forever.  The entire point of creating Luck Denies Counters was to encourage players to be not afraid of using attack skills, but still have that "enemy might end up using counters if I'm unlucky" thing.

And remember, the recent fix made it so that HP threshold moves are guaranteed.  That means you're not gonna come across things like Gildervine and Archdemon and Lugar not transforming, or Black Rabite not using his spell combos, or some other weird things from the previous patch.

I agree. There should be enough wiggle room to make techs/spells useful without the constant fear of counters.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Messianic on November 16, 2021, 06:20:07 pm
So basically you guys want to make an easy game even easier so that a child can blow through it and never have enemies do any real damage to them.

Enemies are not exactly spamming spells out you all day you’re pretty much just nursing them to doing only Malay against you. And pretty much 90% of all bosses damage are their skills so having a high denial counter means boss is just stand around doing nothing.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on November 16, 2021, 06:52:08 pm
So basically you guys want to make an easy game even easier so that a child can blow through it and never have enemies do any real damage to them.

Enemies are not exactly spamming spells out you all day you’re pretty much just nursing them to doing only Malay against you. And pretty much 90% of all bosses damage are their skills so having a high denial counter means boss is just stand around doing nothing.

Huh?  I thought the recent patch only denies COUNTERS, not regular skills.  For example, if Dangard want to use his Air Slasher, he'll use it 100% without being affected by player's Luck (the recent fix uses the attacker's Luck to calculate the denial chance, and enemy's non-counter attacks don't use player's Luck).  On the other hand, if you attack Bill/Ben with Fireball, Luck may deny Bill/Ben his counter.

Or do I have that wrong?


@praetarius5018

Got any other ideas?

Here's one.  Could you make it so that outside the battle, if you don't hold the B button, you're running? (and if you're holding the B button, it walks)  I'm fairly certain many games today does that, and it's wonderful.  Sometimes, when in battle, and I kill a group of the enemies, and I run towards the next group in the same field, I accidentally end up using the tech, because I'm holding the B button to run towards them.  This will solve that problem.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 16, 2021, 08:08:48 pm
I'd find it weird if anti-magic removes the lesser "resistance" and the higher "absorb" but leaves the middle ground "immunity" alone.

Yeah.  That's why I proposed that AntiMagic removes everything, except Moon (and possibly Leaf).  In most games, fire, water, earth, air, light, and dark are elements.  But Moon and Tree are not.  I know that this is Mana game, and therefore Moon and Tree are both elements, but I felt that leaving those unaffected by AntiMagic is still better than "only remove the high tier defense that is absorb and reflect".  And it'll actually make AntiMagic a bit more useful (which is the goal here).  Only little bit, but better.

I made it so in my other hack that the hammer fails when you have a different status but left body change alone.

That will work!  Well, if you're willing to apply that here.

Got any other ideas?

Not yet.  I'll let you know if I think of something.

Honestly, I didn't even know I wanted that rubberband EXP gain until you created it.  As TFS Vegeta once said, "Never in my life have I needed something so much and never known until I received it."

I think that Hawk is actually far ahead with his critical rate; both get about +100 damage per crit but Hawk attacks twice as often.

I don't know about "far", but I suppose you're right if you consider crits.  Still, the gap decreased significantly, in a very very positive light.  And double hitters can miss due to the pushback of the first hit -- I think there's some sort of ACC effect, depending on how far the target is from the melee attack.  I'm not entirely sure about this though.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 16, 2021, 09:32:37 pm
So basically you guys want to make an easy game even easier so that a child can blow through it and never have enemies do any real damage to them.

Enemies are not exactly spamming spells out you all day you’re pretty much just nursing them to doing only Malay against you. And pretty much 90% of all bosses damage are their skills so having a high denial counter means boss is just stand around doing nothing.

You are taking the assertion to the extreme. As I said, it's not about extremes either way. There is nothing strategical about getting spammed with counters and dying and having to resort to melee or Lv1 CS just to avoid getting wiped. It's not about being babied, it's about a good risk/reward balance.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 17, 2021, 12:35:41 pm
I am of the minority position that Luck Denies Counter should NOT be incredibly strong because Luck is also granting crit, better luck on chests, and reduced status ailment times. Just throwing it out that I think Hawkeye with maxed Luck only denying 44% of boss counters is ALREADY very strong.

No need to make Luck overpowered.
I think the value for 15-18 luck (30~37%) against a final boss is ok but going all the way to 22 should give a tad more than just 7% denial extra.


Does anyone know the ROM address for the boss music table? Specifically which boss gets what music? I want to change to byte for Mispolm to be the same as Genova has
I'd take that too!
Though I don't think it is a table and more just part of the boss start event.


Huh?  I thought the recent patch only denies COUNTERS, not regular skills.  For example, if Dangard want to use his Air Slasher, he'll use it 100% without being affected by player's Luck (the recent fix uses the attacker's Luck to calculate the denial chance, and enemy's non-counter attacks don't use player's Luck).  On the other hand, if you attack Bill/Ben with Fireball, Luck may deny Bill/Ben his counter.

Or do I have that wrong?
You got that right.
If they naturally decide to shadow dive it will still go through 100%,
luck only lessens the chance they will use shadow dive after getting hit by spells or techs.


Here's one.  Could you make it so that outside the battle, if you don't hold the B button, you're running? (and if you're holding the B button, it walks)  I'm fairly certain many games today does that, and it's wonderful.  Sometimes, when in battle, and I kill a group of the enemies, and I run towards the next group in the same field, I accidentally end up using the tech, because I'm holding the B button to run towards them.  This will solve that problem.
Not "possible"; if I did that you would also run in battle and that is a balance change that goes too far for my patch here.


That will work!  Well, if you're willing to apply that here.
"Want", I kinda should unless we want to keep 2 items and one spell useless.


I don't know about "far", but I suppose you're right if you consider crits.  Still, the gap decreased significantly, in a very very positive light.  And double hitters can miss due to the pushback of the first hit -- I think there's some sort of ACC effect, depending on how far the target is from the melee attack.  I'm not entirely sure about this though.
I'm fine with that; the pushback from hits kinda makes Hawk (and Kevin) the higher skill ceiling with higher max dps option.

In doubt the hitboxes are questionable.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on November 17, 2021, 05:58:18 pm
Not "possible"; if I did that you would also run in battle and that is a balance change that goes too far for my patch here.

I see.  Indeed, if you'd be moving super fast in the battle, then players would just... run through most of the enemies to the save point, and then level grind.  Although I'm sure there are people who would actually want that, I frown upon that.  I want the game to encourage players to fight.

I wish you can make it so that battle stance would make the vanilla speed, and run on the non-battle parts (but still have the option to walk by holding B).  I don't like holding B button wherever I go (seriously, is there ever a time where you don't run when not in battle?).  Oh well.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 17, 2021, 06:58:48 pm
"Want", I kinda should unless we want to keep 2 items and one spell useless.

I'd be grateful if you "fixed" that.  I actually thought about making the Chibikko Hammer into ST (which is easy enough to make), but it still would have made Puipui Grass and ST Tinkle Rain useless anyways (which is more than half the game).  At least, for Item Shop patch users (you can't buy Mama Poto Oil in the black market there).



@Red Soul

Hey, if you're starting another game with v1.8, can you try out the game with Angela DD and Carlie DD? (3rd player can be whoever, and it can be whichever class with whichever route)  With Max MP lowered due to PIE being the only thing that affects MP, I want to see how that'll affect their gameplay, esp the middle parts of the game.  Their attack spells' power went up (with the updated weapons), so maybe it'll balance out?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Pethronos on November 18, 2021, 02:07:34 am
Hi guys! SD3: 2 Players Restoration hack is out now :D

Specially for those who use the Spanish translation (and want to combine it with different hacks) or who have a very customized rom and simply wanna revert the 3 players hack changes and are lazy to create a new custom rom from scratch. Hope to be helpful to someone ;D

http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/6340/
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 18, 2021, 02:45:40 am
@Red Soul

Hey, if you're starting another game with v1.8, can you try out the game with Angela DD and Carlie DD? (3rd player can be whoever, and it can be whichever class with whichever route)  With Max MP lowered due to PIE being the only thing that affects MP, I want to see how that'll affect their gameplay, esp the middle parts of the game.  Their attack spells' power went up (with the updated weapons), so maybe it'll balance out?

I certainly intend to play with 1.8 next, but wouldn't you rather have me collect those end game damage range numbers for you first?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 18, 2021, 04:03:33 am
I certainly intend to play with 1.8 next, but wouldn't you rather have me collect those end game damage range numbers for you first?

Yes, absolutely.  I meant after everything's over.  I said what I said, because it seemed like you were almost finished with the game.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 18, 2021, 05:29:41 am
Yes, absolutely.  I meant after everything's over.  I said what I said, because it seemed like you were almost finished with the game.

Indeed, I'm at Dragon's Hole/Maw now. I believe the enemies you'd like damage checked are there.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 18, 2021, 12:12:39 pm
I'd be grateful if you "fixed" that.
Will do but not this month anymore.

Would be nice if those that play it would provide their feedback to my changes (spelldamage, casttime, counter rate, exp rate, crits, evade rate, ...) by then in case something needs further tweaking.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 18, 2021, 03:56:58 pm
Will do but not this month anymore.

Would be nice if those that play it would provide their feedback to my changes (spelldamage, casttime, counter rate, exp rate, crits, evade rate, ...) by then in case something needs further tweaking.

I'll make sure to fill adequately detailed reports when I start my 1.8 playthrough. I'll sort them by Lv and area.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 18, 2021, 07:49:34 pm
Will do but not this month anymore.

Would be nice if those that play it would provide their feedback to my changes (spelldamage, casttime, counter rate, exp rate, crits, evade rate, ...) by then in case something needs further tweaking.

Good idea.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on November 18, 2021, 11:55:25 pm
I got two that I noticed.
1. Stardust Herb seems to cure SE, as well as remove all buff/debuff/saber/barrier.  Isn't Stardust Herb supposed to only move magical effects, and not SE?

2. If you talk to Forcena fortune teller after certain point, he initially starts talking about 99/1% thing, then before you can confirm anything, the dialog box immediately proceeds to him saying that he has a headache.  I think in the original game, he would just go immediately go to saying that he has a headache.  I'm guessing bugfix did something to that (which I like), but could you make it so that you can confirm, before he proceeds to saying that he has a headache? (it'll make it seem like that your characters are the only ones that cause him to have headache)
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 19, 2021, 01:35:38 am
I got two that I noticed.
1. Stardust Herb seems to cure SE, as well as remove all buff/debuff/saber/barrier.  Isn't Stardust Herb supposed to only move magical effects, and not SE?

2. If you talk to Forcena fortune teller after certain point, he initially starts talking about 99/1% thing, then before you can confirm anything, the dialog box immediately proceeds to him saying that he has a headache.  I think in the original game, he would just go immediately go to saying that he has a headache.  I'm guessing bugfix did something to that (which I like), but could you make it so that you can confirm, before he proceeds to saying that he has a headache? (it'll make it seem like that your characters are the only ones that cause him to have headache)

I can't recall with 100% certainity now, but I think the dialogue flow is just as described anyway; the bugfix did nothing to change it at all, but I'll confirm on my next playthrough.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 19, 2021, 08:51:41 am
@praetarius5018

Hey.  Do you think you can get the Detect program working properly?  That is, spell type flag 17.  Currently, it starts to analyze (current HP, max HP, weakness), but gets overrun with weird texts that doesn't end properly.  Players can use another spell or something to overwrite the overrun text to end the weird text, but I'd really like to see Detect being complete (I assigned the incomplete version to Item Seed to my Shop patch).



@aitchfactor

Hey, do you mind if I put your patch link to my main post?  Seems like yours is compatible with other hacks.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 19, 2021, 07:04:35 pm
@HMSong:

I got around to jotting down those damage ranges you asked for, here you go:

Duran:

Quote
Lv46 Sword Master Duran
     21str/Levateinn (311 atk)

vs. Lv44 Death Machine
98-100 (201)

Vs. Lv44 High Wizard
137-138 (237-239)

Vs. Lv 44 Dark Lord
98-99 (202-203)

Hawk:

Quote

Lv46 Ninja Master Hawk
     17 str/Acala (258 atk)

vs. Lv44 Death Machine
34-36 (143-144)

Vs. Lv44 High Wizard
63-64 (172-173)

Vs. Lv 44 Dark Lord
34-35 (142-143)

Kevin:

Quote

Lv46 Death Hand Kevin
     18str/Rotten Knuckle (271 atk)

vs. Lv44 Death Machine
44-46 (128-130)   [Daytime]
109-110 (193-194) [Nighttime]


Vs. Lv44 High Wizard
73-74 (157-158)   [Daytime]
138-139 (232-233) [Nighttime]

Vs. Lv 44 Dark Lord

45-46 (129-130)   [Daytime]
109-110 (162-163) [Nighttime]
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: aitchfactor on November 19, 2021, 11:35:24 pm
[\quote]
Hey, do you mind if I put your patch link to my main post?  Seems like yours is compatible with other hacks.
@hmsong
Sure thing.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 20, 2021, 05:19:47 am
@Red Soul

Thanks.  I actually asked for Great Demon, not Death Machine, but it doesn't matter, as I got the data I need.  Now, we know for sure that Duran outdamages Hawk against later enemies, not counting crit.  That's good.  Death Hand Werewolf Kevin still stomps everyone, but that was expected (it'd be weird if he didn't).  Thanks for your help.



@aitchfactor

Okay, it's up now.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 20, 2021, 05:22:52 am
@Red Soul

Thanks.  I actually asked for Great Demon, not Death Machine, but it doesn't matter, as I got the data I need.  Now, we know for sure that Duran outdamages Hawk against later enemies, not counting crit.  That's good.  Werewolf Kevin still stomps everyone, but that was expected (it'd be weird if he didn't).  Thanks for your help.

Oops, that's true, sorry!

Now I'll probably finish the playthrough I was originally doing, then start a 1.8 one. Hopefully I can be helpful to both you and Praetarius by doing so.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 20, 2021, 06:01:40 am
I got around to jotting down those damage ranges you asked for, here you go
The Kevin night values seem too high; did he get hit after transforming? Wolfform should be +10% now, so maybe 30 raw damage more or ~22 with the penalty. Having it nearly triple that looks like he also got the power up buff from getting hit (is exactly the same buff as casting pressure point or the power up spell).


Hey.  Do you think you can get the Detect program working properly?  That is, spell type flag 17.  Currently, it starts to analyze (current HP, max HP, weakness), but gets overrun with weird texts that doesn't end properly.  Players can use another spell or something to overwrite the overrun text to end the weird text, but I'd really like to see Detect being complete (I assigned the incomplete version to Item Seed to my Shop patch).
Don't think so. From my understanding all the type 17 does is call a text box. In unpatched J version I get an HP/maxHP readout, not sure what the second line means, I can't read japanese.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ht0SYsKM/Seiken-Densetsu-3-J-fixpatch001.png) (https://postimages.org/)

My guess is that a given translation patch breaks the relevant text template or a pointer because of text compression.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 20, 2021, 06:12:24 am
The Kevin night values seem too high; did he get hit after transforming? Wolfform should be +10% now, so maybe 30 raw damage more or ~22 with the penalty. Having it nearly triple that looks like he also got the power up buff from getting hit (is exactly the same buff as casting pressure point or the power up spell).

Oh yeah, I think you mentioned that Kevin gets power buff from getting hit or something.  I hope you fix that by the next patch.

Don't think so. From my understanding all the type 17 does is call a text box. In unpatched J version I get an HP/maxHP readout, not sure what the second line means, I can't read japanese.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ht0SYsKM/Seiken-Densetsu-3-J-fixpatch001.png) (https://postimages.org/)

My guess is that a given translation patch breaks the relevant text template or a pointer because of text compression.

The last one line is "Jakuten", which means weak point.  Not sure about what's said afterwards.  I guess it's the fault of the the fan translation that the flag 17 got messed up.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 20, 2021, 06:23:55 am
Oh yeah, I think you mentioned that Kevin gets power buff from getting hit or something.  I hope you fix that by the next patch.
I'm not sure if it is a bug or not; what happens is that upon transformation his "buffs" gets set to "only power up active" but the attack recalculation only happens when he gets hit.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 20, 2021, 08:08:13 am
I'm not sure if it is a bug or not; what happens is that upon transformation his "buffs" gets set to "only power up active" but the attack recalculation only happens when he gets hit.

I see.  I guess this is where "hacker's call" comes in.  What I know is that with the "get hit = buff", Kevin is even more powerful, and the idea of lowering his werewolf form's power was to weaken him a bit (to give other characters a chance), and perhaps disabling the hit=buff can count towards weakening Kevin.  Well, unless there's some sort of problem for "fixing" that.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 20, 2021, 08:22:29 am
I see.  I guess this is where "hacker's call" comes in.  What I know is that with the "get hit = buff", Kevin is even more powerful, and the idea of lowering his werewolf form's power was to weaken him a bit (to give other characters a chance), and perhaps disabling the hit=buff can count towards weakening Kevin.  Well, unless there's some sort of problem for "fixing" that.
nah, that's a one byte change.
12C9AF 40 -> 00, done
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 20, 2021, 03:49:18 pm
Personally I think it is cool if he has a slight edge due to damage recalculation, and it would be pointless to use him if he ends up just slightly above Hawk in damage. It is not a decisive difference but it adds some spice.

November 20, 2021, 03:57:19 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
The Kevin night values seem too high; did he get hit after transforming? Wolfform should be +10% now, so maybe 30 raw damage more or ~22 with the penalty. Having it nearly triple that looks like he also got the power up buff from getting hit (is exactly the same buff as casting pressure point or the power up spell).

Yeah at times he did get hit. Do you mean immediately after transforming or in normal combat after transforming?
I also used dreamsee herbs to quickly shift between night and day as needed, if it means anything.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 20, 2021, 04:09:53 pm
Personally I think it is cool if he has a slight edge due to damage recalculation, and it would be pointless to use him if he ends up just slightly above Hawk in damage. It is not a decisive difference but it adds some spice.
If I see your data correctly, he deals 10~15 damage more on a non-crit and the same amount less on a crit compared to Hawk, so if crit rate was 50% they'd have same dps, but even with energy ball it is way lower which favors Kevin already. +10% atk during night time (without power up) gives him around 2.5 times that.
Imo that is fine for the difference of utility (Hawk with buffs or debuffs) vs raw dps (Kevin).

I dunno, I think +10% AND power up buff is a bit much for a quickish "cast" of transform (if you compare it to self-casting power up or pressure point).


Yeah at times he did get hit. Do you mean immediately after transforming or in normal combat after transforming?
I also used dreamsee herbs to quickly shift between night and day as needed, if it means anything.
When he starts transforming the game sets the power up flag on him, the attack update only triggers when he his HP changes (damage or heal) or he gets hit by a (de)buff.
So I wanted to know if his damage values were with such a trigger (I guess yes) or not.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 20, 2021, 04:28:26 pm
When he starts transforming the game sets the power up flag on him, the attack update only triggers when he his HP changes (damage or heal) or he gets hit by a (de)buff.
So I wanted to know if his damage values were with such a trigger (I guess yes) or not.

I can look into this specific issue more carefully if you'd like.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Messianic on November 20, 2021, 05:54:58 pm
Quote from: praetarius5018
(https://i.postimg.cc/ht0SYsKM/Seiken-Densetsu-3-J-fixpatch001.png) (https://postimages.org/)

My guess is that a given translation patch breaks the relevant text template or a pointer because of text compression.

So that phrase is 光素魔法 which means "light elemental magic," with 光 being light, 素 being elemental, and 魔法 being magic. This must be in reference to the bat enemy.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 20, 2021, 06:01:37 pm
Probably the weakness, right?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Messianic on November 20, 2021, 06:57:37 pm
yes hmsong already mentioned the up above the first word means weakness
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 21, 2021, 04:11:35 am
To me it looks like it displays the same weakness twice... maybe bandaid solution because they couldn't make a textbox variant with just one entry?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 21, 2021, 09:42:13 am
@praetarius5018

It seems that the new bugfix patch doesn't give the bonus EXP to the enemies with 00 Exp flag (ex: Armor Knight, Silver Knight, Dark Lord, Ninja Master, Wizard, Evil Sword, Black Fang, etc).  Changing that value to 80 fixes the problem, as 80 and 00 give the same EXP.

Okay.  Just submitted an updated version of Less Grinding, to fix the compatibility issues.  People using v1.8 may want to use that.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 21, 2021, 03:56:41 pm
@praetarius5018

It seems that the new bugfix patch doesn't give the bonus EXP to the enemies with 00 Exp flag (ex: Armor Knight, Silver Knight, Dark Lord, Ninja Master, Wizard, Evil Sword, Black Fang, etc).  Changing that value to 80 fixes the problem, as 80 and 00 give the same EXP.
What enemy did you experience that against?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 21, 2021, 05:37:18 pm
What enemy did you experience that against?

Armor Knight, from Corridors of Wind.  I was at Lv9, and it still dropped 16 EXP, while all other monsters dropped more than usual.  This was confirmed again in the Rolante Castle.  All other monsters got EXP boost, while Armor Knight and Evil Sword did not.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on November 22, 2021, 06:15:42 am
I'm not sure what's causing this (as it seems so random), but sometimes, when I cast some spells with Angela (it happened with both Air Blast and Evil Gate in the desert), the game freezes.  The game also froze when an enemy (Dark Priest in the desert) tried to cast some kind of attack spell.  Maybe it happened when I tried to open the menu when the spell was about to be cast, and the animation is about to start?  It happens so randomly, that I can't pinpoint how it's done.  Does anyone else notice?  Maybe it happens if you play the game for an extend time?  Not sure.

Oh, I'm using v1.8, Balance patch, Black Rabite patch, Item patch, Less Grinding patch, and Evade patch, patched in that order.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 22, 2021, 12:16:09 pm
Armor Knight, from Corridors of Wind.  I was at Lv9, and it still dropped 16 EXP, while all other monsters dropped more than usual.  This was confirmed again in the Rolante Castle.  All other monsters got EXP boost, while Armor Knight and Evil Sword did not.
sigh noted


Maybe it happens if you play the game for an extend time?  Not sure.
I could take the easy way out and just blame it on this; the game has some kind of memory leak and spell animations amplify that effect, that's at least what we've observered over the years. I recall reading an article some years back that hypothesized we didn't get SD3 overseas because exactly that behaviour was observed on console.
Well, its not like I've accidently drawn the menu sprites on the game screen by playing around with snowman status... this game has issues.

Just saving ingame (NOT save states!!), resetting back to the main menu and then loading again resets the time until issues crop up.
If you resume playing via loading savestates it would be like you never left, so that "doomsday clock" is still at the exact same spot as it was before.


tl;dr: when did it start coming up?
shortly after loading from ingame menu? or after a couple hours without reloading?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on November 22, 2021, 07:50:03 pm
tl;dr: when did it start coming up?
shortly after loading from ingame menu? or after a couple hours without reloading?

I loaded from the last save point of Seashore Cave.  I was Lv14.  I immediately cleared it, then I went to the Forcena, then went to the desert, and bought the equipments and proceeded to grind until Lv18 (I used Angela's Air Blast a lot, and grinding was very fast).  I went back to inn to recover MP from time to time, but I don't think I loaded from the inn.  Anyways, I then fought Bill and Ben (used Evil Gate frequently, as it was night), and that's when the game got stuck.  I think it was only about an hour or two, from loading to the point of getting stuck.

Edit: It seems that there might be some problem, not with v1.8, but with hmsong's Evade patch.



@hmsong

Something is wrong with your Evade patch.  Whatever it's doing, it's causing a problem in Mintos.  I can't get into the Moonlight Forest from Mintos, if I apply your Evade patch.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 23, 2021, 02:25:53 am
used Evil Gate frequently, as it was night
day/night has no influence on light/dark damage.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on November 23, 2021, 03:18:21 am
day/night has no influence on light/dark damage.

Seriously?  Haha!  What the heck.  Man, dark damage spells just suck.  Well, I guess they suck in almost all games.  If you can make day/night affect the strength boost of light/dark spells, I would appreciate it.  That way, people will actually have reasons to use dark spells, as nights are common.  Sure, light spells will get powerful too, but at least it uses PIE for damage, meaning she will almost always do less damage than her INT based spells.

Speaking of light/dark spells, if the calculation is right, don't you think Heal Light will get a bit too powerful at the end of the game?  I get that Angela's spells need help at the end of the game (very wise decision, esp her MT spells), but Heal Light getting buffed may be a bit too much.  If Daytime gives Heal Light some buff, then that I can see, and even welcome it.  But Heal Light getting the same buff as Angela's spells is a bit too much imho.  Maybe make it so that M.Def affects Heal Light "damage"?  I don't know what's a good number, but yeah...
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 23, 2021, 08:45:00 am
@hmsong

Something is wrong with your Evade patch.  Whatever it's doing, it's causing a problem in Mintos.  I can't get into the Moonlight Forest from Mintos, if I apply your Evade patch.

Oh crap.  You're right.  Thanks for letting me know.  Nice job finding out that it was Evade patch that was the issue.  I shall submit an update with the fix.

Having said that, it probably doesn't have anything to do with freezing the game.  The problem with my Evade patch was that it screwed up something with Werewolf enemy, and the first part of Moonlight Forest had werewolf enemy which screwed things up.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 23, 2021, 12:20:28 pm
If you can make day/night affect the strength boost of light/dark spells, I would appreciate it.  That way, people will actually have reasons to use dark spells, as nights are common.  Sure, light spells will get powerful too, but at least it uses PIE for damage, meaning she will almost always do less damage than her INT based spells.
Imo there should NEVER be a day bonus for light/dark element based on day/night
1) Kevin is already "restricted" to night because of wolf bonus

2) getting the bonus 50% of the time to the OP element (a majority of endgame mobs are neutral or weak to light, other weaknesses rare) is nonsense if the average element only get theirs 1/7 of the time

3) about 25% of the bosses have a dark elemental attack, I'd guess 35% of regular enemies with any element at all have something with dark; this wouldn't make dark spells more useful to you, this would make the game harder.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 23, 2021, 03:13:06 pm
I agree. Even the bonuses for the more common elements are of somewhat questionable, situational usefulness, IMO.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on November 23, 2021, 05:51:45 pm
Imo there should NEVER be a day bonus for light/dark element based on day/night
1) Kevin is already "restricted" to night because of wolf bonus

2) getting the bonus 50% of the time to the OP element (a majority of endgame mobs are neutral or weak to light, other weaknesses rare) is nonsense if the average element only get theirs 1/7 of the time

3) about 25% of the bosses have a dark elemental attack, I'd guess 35% of regular enemies with any element at all have something with dark; this wouldn't make dark spells more useful to you, this would make the game harder.

I see.  It's just that both Wisp and Shade don't have any their "day", while all other elements get their day, and I feel sad for that.  But I agree with #2.  I don't mind #3 though.  As for #1, then there will be both pro and con for day/night, because of reason #3 -- at night, kevin gets werewolf bonus, but it also becomes dangerous, because enemies' dark spell damage will increase.

Then how about light/dark bonus can only happen during the Mana Holiday, day for light, and night for dark?  That way, the Wisp/Shade get their own "moment" in one of the days (half of all other elements).
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 24, 2021, 01:53:31 am
I agree. Even the bonuses for the more common elements are of somewhat questionable, situational usefulness, IMO.

I wouldn't want them gone though.  If the element bonus disappears, then there's literally no point of having different days in a week.

Then how about light/dark bonus can only happen during the Mana Holiday, day for light, and night for dark?  That way, the Wisp/Shade get their own "moment" in one of the days (half of all other elements).

That sounds good.  Mana Holiday doesn't give any bonus to any element (despite what many guides say), and it'd be cool to see that day having some purpose (other than free inn).  But I agree with praetarius5018 that having 50% of time being powered up in one element (esp holy) is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 24, 2021, 11:59:42 am
If you had said "mana day should boost all elements" (incl. non-elemental? that one has no day either!!) I would have thought about it, but some weird day/night mana day-only split feels unintuitive.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on November 24, 2021, 06:11:57 pm
If you had said "mana day should boost all elements" (incl. non-elemental? that one has no day either!!) I would have thought about it, but some weird day/night mana day-only split feels unintuitive.

Hmm.  I feel that non-element shouldn't get any boost, because those spells don't use elemental spirits.  And non-elements are special in a way that you don't ever have to worry about the attack being ineffective or something.  And it'd be kinda weird that things like Dart getting boost in a particular day of the week.

I just want Wisp and Shade to have their unique "moments in the week dedicated to them only", even if their moments are shorter than other elements.

I'm against the Mana Holiday boosting all elements.  That takes out the uniqueness of the elemental days.  I want the "boost" on specific day to be something that players discover -- it certainly made me appreciate those days, esp now that you made the days affect sabers too.

Also, I think I sort of get when the game freezes.  I think if you use attack spells for certain amount of times after loading the game, the game freezes.  I used Angela, and I was up against Mispolm (I loaded from the nearest save point), and the game froze during the battle, probably because I used the attack spells so many times.  In all the times the game froze, they were all attack spells.  To be fair though, I used attack spells far more frequently than other types of spells, given that my team was Duran, Angela, and Kevin.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 26, 2021, 02:44:08 am
Also, I think I sort of get when the game freezes.  I think if you use attack spells for certain amount of times after loading the game, the game freezes.  I used Angela, and I was up against Mispolm (I loaded from the nearest save point), and the game froze during the battle, probably because I used the attack spells so many times.  In all the times the game froze, they were all attack spells.  To be fair though, I used attack spells far more frequently than other types of spells, given that my team was Duran, Angela, and Kevin.

I came across freezing things too in v1.8, and in my case, the game froze when I tried to open the menu while the spell was about to start (enemy or ally).  I don't know if it's the same one as yours, or a completely different freeze.  I thought I should mention it.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 26, 2021, 03:33:24 am
@HMSong:

I'm about ready for the next playthrough now, sorry for the late pingback.
Could you refresh my memory on your requirements? (party, your patches and so on).

Since I'll be using bugfix 1.8, I'll be taking detailed notes for Praetarius as well, as I progress.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 26, 2021, 05:56:40 am
@HMSong:

I'm about ready for the next playthrough now, sorry for the late pingback.
Could you refresh my memory on your requirements? (party, your patches and so on).

Since I'll be using bugfix 1.8, I'll be taking detailed notes for Praetarius as well, as I progress.

Thanks.  I would like to see Kevin LL/LD -- I want to see how his Heal Light works (rather, how much it has been nerfed), now that Balance v2.7 and bugfix 1.8 has affected the cast time.  Will heal items no longer be obsolete?

And Angela DD.  1. How much weaker will she be in doing damage due to the new mechanic in the pre-Desert/Snowland? (you'll have to keep upgrading her weapon)  2. How much stronger will she be in doing damage post-Moonlight Forest?  3. How will her new MP level affect her?  4. At what level will she reach 99 MP, if at all?  5. How often will she be countered, esp against bosses, assuming her Luck is always raised? (so her 3 primary stats will be Int, Vit, and Luck)

And Hawk LL.  How much weaker is he?  Can you think of good strategy to use him in a good way?

I want you to use bugfix 1.8, Balance (do not use No Skill Counter), and Monsters.  Optional: Black Rabite, Items, Starting Stats, and Less Grinding.

Do not use my Evade Changes, as I want to see how v1.8's default Eva works -- is it too little?  Is it too much?

Please level up decently before proceeding to the next dungeon (please grind to at least the dungeon enemy level, before proceeding to the next dungeon), as I want data of players who didn't run through all the mobs, just to access the higher EXP dropping enemies -- probably for enemies from Rolante and on, as that's when you probably need to start grinding.  Is +25%, +50%, and +100% too much?  Can money still keep up (relative to vanilla), assuming you level grinded before proceeding to the next level?

Please save often (and save state), as both soul_knight and I have come across game freezing.

Once again, thanks.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 26, 2021, 12:34:11 pm
Also, I think I sort of get when the game freezes.  I think if you use attack spells for certain amount of times after loading the game, the game freezes.  I used Angela, and I was up against Mispolm (I loaded from the nearest save point), and the game froze during the battle, probably because I used the attack spells so many times.  In all the times the game froze, they were all attack spells.  To be fair though, I used attack spells far more frequently than other types of spells, given that my team was Duran, Angela, and Kevin.
When exactly did it freeze?
During the spell animation? Directly after? Or at a "random" point in battle?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 26, 2021, 04:11:58 pm
I want you to use bugfix 1.8, Balance (do not use No Skill Counter), and Monsters.  Optional: Black Rabite, Items, Starting Stats, and Less Grinding.

Do not use my Evade Changes, as I want to see how v1.8's default Eva works -- is it too little?  Is it too much?

Please save often (and save state), as both soul_knight and I have come across game freezing.

Once again, thanks.

I think I will use as few patches as possible, in the off-chance there is a bad interaction somewhere.

Edit: You know, repatching from scratch is all is a bit of a pain. Maybe we should look into a special patch integration system like Secret of Mana Turbo has?

Edit 2: It's insanely hard to get accurate damage figures because the AI players get in the way.
I probably won't have good numbers until I get the Chibikko Hammer.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on November 26, 2021, 06:32:09 pm
When exactly did it freeze?
During the spell animation? Directly after? Or at a "random" point in battle?

Right before the spell animation starts.  And as hmsong said, when too many casts are active, it seems to freeze.  They may be the same bug.  Try it.  Have all 3 chars cast spells during the battle, and keep casting spells.  Eventually, it'll freeze while the menu is being open.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: travel27 on November 27, 2021, 04:59:44 am
Some games are perfect as is, this would be one of them.  Excellent game that surpasses secret of mana and cleans up some of that game's flaws, which was itself a great game.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 27, 2021, 08:17:46 am
I think I will use as few patches as possible, in the off-chance there is a bad interaction somewhere.

Edit: You know, repatching from scratch is all is a bit of a pain. Maybe we should look into a special patch integration system like Secret of Mana Turbo has?

Edit 2: It's insanely hard to get accurate damage figures because the AI players get in the way.
I probably won't have good numbers until I get the Chibikko Hammer.

Thanks.  I don't need precise number (although it would be great -- please watch out for element day bonus).  I just want a feeling on how viable Angela's spells are in the beginning.  And how powerful she is at the end.  And how often she gets countered if she levels up her Luck.  And numerous other things.  Thanks.

Yeah, I wish I can do a compilation like SoM Turbo, but I have absolutely no idea how to do that.



Some games are perfect as is, this would be one of them.  Excellent game that surpasses secret of mana and cleans up some of that game's flaws, which was itself a great game.

I think this game is far from being perfect.  That's why I created numerous hacks -- to mitigate some of the flaws of the game in my image.  Of course, my hacks are full of flaws too.  But hopefully, it's better than vanilla.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 27, 2021, 05:28:50 pm
Thanks.  I don't need precise number (although it would be great -- please watch out for element day bonus).  I just want a feeling on how viable Angela's spells are in the beginning.  And how powerful she is at the end.  And how often she gets countered if she levels up her Luck.  And numerous other things.  Thanks.

Yeah, I wish I can do a compilation like SoM Turbo, but I have absolutely no idea how to do that.

I'm also compiling this data for Praetarius, perhaps he can find some use for it.

As for compiling patches, I guess contacting the author(s) of SoM Turbo about the .zps format they use could be a good start if there's interest.

Edit: Did something change in the shop patch and Dreamsee Herb is no longer sold? because it's a pretty convenient way to test werewolf damage.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 27, 2021, 07:24:58 pm
I'm also compiling this data for Praetarius, perhaps he can find some use for it.

As for compiling patches, I guess contacting the author(s) of SoM Turbo about the .zps format they use could be a good start if there's interest.

Edit: Did something change in the shop patch and Dreamsee Herb is no longer sold? because it's a pretty convenient way to test werewolf damage.

I already talked to Queue a long time ago, and it's a lot more complicated than I thought to create a ZPS for a new game.  There's a lot of prerequisite knowledge that needs to be applied, and I don't have them.  It's a different story if someone creates a ZPS for SD3, in which case I can modify, add, delete, etc.  But as of now, no such thing exists.

As for how the shops work, there are two item shops.  The "first" shop is active from the beginning of the game until you clear the Corbokkle Forest, and after that, all item shops change their contents to their "second" shop.  I have absolutely no idea how that works, nor why Corbokkle.  But it is what it is.  The only think I could was change the contents of the shops.  The first shop does not have Dreamsee Herb -- I wanted people to explore the Item Seed.  The second shop has all the items from Item Seed and Mysterious Seed.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 27, 2021, 07:28:29 pm
I already talked to Queue a long time ago, and it's a lot more complicated than I thought to create a ZPS for a new game.  There's a lot of prerequisite knowledge that needs to be applied, and I don't have them.  It's a different story if someone creates a ZPS for SD3, in which case I can modify, add, delete, etc.  But as of now, no such thing exists.

As for how the shops work, there are two item shops.  The "first" shop is active from the beginning of the game until you clear the Corbokkle Forest, and after that, all item shops change their contents to their "second" shop.  I have absolutely no idea how that works, nor why Corbokkle.  But it is what it is.  The only think I could was change the contents of the shops.  The first shop does not have Dreamsee Herb -- I wanted people to explore the Item Seed.  The second shop has all the items from Item Seed and Mysterious Seed.

I see, so it's no a simple thing to do. Thanks for the shop info. I wasn't sure what the thresholds were for the inventory to change. I guess to ease data collection I might modify my save game to contain Dreamsee Herbs and the hammer from the get go.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on November 28, 2021, 06:09:04 am
@praetarius5018

I don't think Luck Denies Counter is working.  Specifically, it's working as if Luck Denies Counter is No Skill Counter.  I haven't seen any bosses countering Angela's spells.  Specifically, I haven't seen Black Rabite countering any spells (other bosses are a bit hard to tell).  I mean, I leveled up her Luck, but there ought to be some chance that the bosses will counter, right?  I spammed Evil Gate on Black Rabite (after using the anti magic item), but not once did Black Rabite counter.



@hmsong

I'll answer about max mp for Angela.  The answer is yes and no.  For Angela DD, the max mp she can reach (at PIE 18) is 96.  She stops getting max mp after Lv46 or so.  But she starts gaining max mp starting Lv55 or so.  So if you level her up to Lv60 or something, she'll max out her max mp, even as Angela DD.  I'm guessing literally every character can max out their hp and mp, assuming they level up enough.  Yeah... let's see if anyone ever tries that (without the par code or something).  In any case, I never had mp issue anymore than I had with vanilla.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 28, 2021, 08:11:39 pm
@soul_knight

Thanks for the info.  Yeah, it was expected that DD is gonna max out at 96.  Praetarius5018 already said that her base maxes out at 78 (so 78 + 18 PIE = 96).  I guess that means none of her classes will get 99 MP, even in her LD, which has 20 PIE (which results in 98 MP).  That's no problem though -- Kevin doesn't max out his HP ~Lv50, so why should Angela max out her MP around the same level?  At least the game gives the players the option of maxing out the HP and MP (lots of grinding).  I usually level up until Lv56, because that's when you can max out every stat for most characters (some max out before that level), so for the most part, Angela will max out her MP.



@praetarius5018

Hey, for your next update, maybe you can correct Angela's Luck stat error.  I mean, I think that's an error -- she's supposed to have decent Luck stat.  She started with decent Luck (3rd highest), but for whatever reason, her class ups didn't get the same Luck update.  Here's the code, relative to vanilla and other characters (I'm sure you can do this yourself, but I'll save you the time, if you decide to apply this).

Code: [Select]
@OFF $D14468 ' Angela L (+luck correction)
RAW 0A 0A 0A 0E 0D 0C
RAW 0A 0A 0A 0E 0D 0C
RAW 0A 0A 0A 0E 0D 0C
RAW 0B 0B 0B 0F 0E 0D
RAW 0B 0B 0B 0F 0E 0D
RAW 0B 0B 0B 0F 0E 0D
RAW 0C 0C 0C 10 0F 0E
RAW 0C 0C 0C 10 0F 0E
RAW 0C 0C 0C 10 0F 0E
RAW 0D 0D 0D 11 10 0F
RAW 0D 0D 0D 11 10 0F
RAW 0D 0D 0D 11 10 0F
RAW 0E 0E 0E 11 11 10
RAW 0E 0E 0E 11 11 10
RAW 0E 0E 0E 11 11 10
RAW 0E 0E 0E 11 11 10

@OFF $D144E0 ' Angela D (+luck correction)
RAW 0A 0A 0A 0E 0D 0C
RAW 0A 0A 0A 0E 0D 0C
RAW 0A 0A 0A 0E 0D 0C
RAW 0B 0B 0B 0F 0E 0D
RAW 0B 0B 0B 0F 0E 0D
RAW 0B 0B 0B 0F 0E 0D
RAW 0C 0C 0C 10 0F 0E
RAW 0C 0C 0C 10 0F 0E
RAW 0C 0C 0C 10 0F 0E
RAW 0D 0D 0D 11 10 0F
RAW 0D 0D 0D 11 10 0F
RAW 0D 0D 0D 11 10 0F
RAW 0D 0D 0E 12 10 0F
RAW 0D 0D 0E 12 10 0F
RAW 0D 0D 0E 12 10 0F
RAW 0D 0D 0E 12 10 0F

@OFF $D157B8 ' Angela LL (+luck correction)
RAW 0E 0E 0E 11 11 10
RAW 0F 0F 0F 12 12 11
RAW 0F 0F 0F 12 12 11
RAW 0F 0F 0F 12 12 11
RAW 10 10 10 13 13 12
RAW 10 10 10 13 13 12
RAW 10 10 10 13 13 12
RAW 11 11 11 14 13 12
RAW 11 11 11 14 13 12
RAW 11 11 11 14 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12
RAW 11 11 12 15 13 12

@OFF $D1591A ' Angela LD (+luck correction)
RAW 0E 0E 0E 11 11 10
RAW 0F 0F 0F 12 12 11
RAW 0F 0F 0F 12 12 11
RAW 0F 0F 0F 12 12 11
RAW 10 10 10 13 13 12
RAW 10 10 10 13 13 12
RAW 10 10 10 13 13 12
RAW 10 10 11 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 11 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 11 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13
RAW 10 10 12 14 14 13

@OFF $D15A7C ' Angela DL (+luck correction)
RAW 0D 0D 0E 12 10 0F
RAW 0E 0E 0F 13 11 10
RAW 0E 0E 0F 13 11 10
RAW 0E 0E 0F 13 11 10
RAW 0F 0F 10 14 12 11
RAW 0F 0F 10 14 12 11
RAW 0F 0F 10 14 12 11
RAW 0F 0F 11 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 11 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 11 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12
RAW 0F 0F 12 15 13 12

@OFF $D15BDE ' Angela DD (+luck correction)
RAW 0D 0D 0E 12 10 0F
RAW 0E 0E 0F 13 11 10
RAW 0E 0E 0F 13 11 10
RAW 0E 0E 0F 13 11 10
RAW 0F 0F 10 14 12 11
RAW 0F 0F 10 14 12 11
RAW 0F 0F 10 14 12 11
RAW 10 10 11 15 12 11
RAW 10 10 11 15 12 11
RAW 10 10 11 15 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11
RAW 10 10 12 16 12 11

And this will still make my balance patch compatible, since my Balance Stat simply overwrites this.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 29, 2021, 12:20:52 pm
I don't think Luck Denies Counter is working.  Specifically, it's working as if Luck Denies Counter is No Skill Counter.  I haven't seen any bosses countering Angela's spells.  Specifically, I haven't seen Black Rabite countering any spells (other bosses are a bit hard to tell).  I mean, I leveled up her Luck, but there ought to be some chance that the bosses will counter, right?  I spammed Evil Gate on Black Rabite (after using the anti magic item), but not once did Black Rabite counter.
Unless I mixed up directions (< vs >) he should have like 60% to get his counteraction.
Are you 100% certain you don't also have hmsong's no skill counter on?


So if you level her up to Lv60 or something, she'll max out her max mp, even as Angela DD.  I'm guessing literally every character can max out their hp and mp, assuming they level up enough.  Yeah... let's see if anyone ever tries that (without the par code or something).
Can't see anyone ever doing that; at about Lv55-60 every stat should be max, so you only gain a handful of HP/MP. And even reaching 50 is a grind and a half.
Neither worth it nor are there any decent grind spots.
In SoM it was at least somewhat worth it because of low drop chance for endgame gear and extra orbs.


Thanks for the info.  Yeah, it was expected that DD is gonna max out at 96.  Praetarius5018 already said that her base maxes out at 78 (so 78 + 18 PIE = 96).  I guess that means none of her classes will get 99 MP, even in her LD, which has 20 PIE (which results in 98 MP).
I feel like the vanilla base MP growth is even a bit too much; +1 MP per stat is kinda meaningless when you have 70 MP base and 108x 20mp walnuts total; but that would be deep in rebalancing territory.


Hey, for your next update, maybe you can correct Angela's Luck stat error.  I mean, I think that's an error -- she's supposed to have decent Luck stat.  She started with decent Luck (3rd highest), but for whatever reason, her class ups didn't get the same Luck update.  Here's the code, relative to vanilla and other characters (I'm sure you can do this yourself, but I'll save you the time, if you decide to apply this).
I'm not sure I understand what exactly the error is; care to elaborate?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 29, 2021, 06:30:11 pm
I'm not sure I understand what exactly the error is; care to elaborate?

I'm saying that I think Angela was supposed to have higher Luck in her class changes.  For example, vanilla Duran starts the game with 4 AGL.  Eventually, he ends up with 17~19 AGL (depending on which class).  The same with all characters of all classes.

Code: [Select]
Start Class 1 Class 2 stat
---- ---- ----
2 13~14 15~17
3 14~15 16~18
4 15~16 17~19
5 16~17 18~20
6 17~18 20~22

All characters of all classes follow the exact same pattern, except Angela's Luck (well, Duran's STR starts with 6, and ends with 21~22, but that's an acceptable exception).  Angela starts with 4 Luck, and therefore she should end up with 17~19 Luck, just like all other stats of all characters for all classes (following the table above).  The problem is, she doesn't end up with 17~19 Luck -- she ends up with 15~17 Luck.  Therefore, I think Angela's Luck stat is an error.  And I'm sure Angela wasn't supposed to start the game with 2 Luck.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on November 30, 2021, 12:36:39 am
Unless I mixed up directions (< vs >) he should have like 60% to get his counteraction.
Are you 100% certain you don't also have hmsong's no skill counter on?

Yes.  Just for test, I made a rom with only v1.8 and Black Rabite.  And then attacked BR with loads of spells.  No counter at all.  I did use the previous run save, but I'm guessing that won't affect anything in regards to counter frequency rate.  So unless hmsong's BR patch disabled counters or something, I think something is going on that disables counters.  While I prefer the counters to be rare (assuming Luck is relatively decent), I don't want there to be no counter whatsoever.

Can anyone else confirm?  Test it against Lugar or Black Rabite, as those two can counter, but neither use their skills unless their HP is low.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on November 30, 2021, 02:11:57 pm
I'm saying that I think Angela was supposed to have higher Luck in her class changes.  For example, vanilla Duran starts the game with 4 AGL.  Eventually, he ends up with 17~19 AGL (depending on which class).
I don't have a strong opinion on this, so could do that; what do other people think about it?


Yes.  Just for test, I made a rom with only v1.8 and Black Rabite.  And then attacked BR with loads of spells.  No counter at all.
Ok, will check next time I have time for SD3.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Messianic on November 30, 2021, 04:01:35 pm
I’m fine with Angela having a little higher Luck, as long as it doesn’t make her have higher total stats than everyone else.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on November 30, 2021, 05:44:24 pm
I’m fine with Angela having a little higher Luck, as long as it doesn’t make her have higher total stats than everyone else.

She used to have the lowest total stats (tied with Kevin).  With the Luck update, she has the 2nd lowest total stat (tied with Duran).
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Zimgief on November 30, 2021, 06:29:15 pm
I'm fine with it too!
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Red Soul on November 30, 2021, 09:31:59 pm
Yeah, being she is a mage in the purest sense, some of her STR or VIT could be sacrificed for more luck, and she'd be all the better for it, given luck's important role in survivability now.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on December 01, 2021, 10:35:34 pm
When you apply stat up magic, the one being applied sometimes have that green aura.  But sometimes, it doesn't.  And I think I also saw the yellow aura before at some point.  Does anyone know what those aura color means?  Also, if you apply stat up, and then someone applies stat down, then do you go back to being neutral (neither stat up or down), or do you just have stat down?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 02, 2021, 03:01:24 am
First of all, I can confirm that v1.8 made the enemies (at least Black Rabite) not counter any skills.  I just tried it.  I spammed the attack skills, and BR didnt' counter at all.

This might be a dangerous thought, but is there a way to make the "countering enemies/bosses" (such as Bill/Ben, Lugar, and Black Rabite) use their counter skills randomly (instead of those skills being activated by being attacked by magic), just like the "non-countering enemies/bosses"? (such as Full Metal Hagger, Jewel Eater, and Tsenker)  Of course, all bosses should keep their unique HP threshold moves (such as Knights starting the fight with a Saber magic, and Lugar/Gildervine transforming, and Black Rabite using the spell combo and Ancient).  That way, the players will have to be always vigilant, instead of just using melee to not activate the counters (personally, I think Luck Denies Counter still discourages players to use skills, simply because there's an option to not activate the counter skills at all -- by just using the boring melee).  While I was testing, I fought against Black Rabite, and I specifically didn't use any skills (I only had v1.8 enabled), and honestly, BR was extremely easy.  But if BR used his counter skills randomly (like Supersonic, or Great Demon summon), then I would constantly have to be vigilant (esp my healers), which would make the fights more difficult and interesting.  Actually, some players might still die, because player damaged BR enough to activate the spell combo, while BR was activating a random powerful skill.  But that's half the fun.  Being vigilant while fighting.

Just a thought.

Also, I think M.Def buff is a bit too much.  Based on the number, M.Def Up should only raise the M.Def by 20%.  Duran had M.Def of 138, and with the buff, he got 165.  So he should only reduce the damage by ~27 points, right?  But when I got attacked by BR's Dark Force, the damage got almost halved (216 reduced to 114 points).  But that doesn't seem to be the case for M.Def Down (Angela did 367 damage with Evil Gate against BR, and the same spell did 467 when BR had M.Def down).  That seemed a bit weird.  Can you check that out, and if possible, make M.Def buff a bit less powerful?


When you apply stat up magic, the one being applied sometimes have that green aura.  But sometimes, it doesn't.  And I think I also saw the yellow aura before at some point.  Does anyone know what those aura color means?  Also, if you apply stat up, and then someone applies stat down, then do you go back to being neutral (neither stat up or down), or do you just have stat down?

I think the green aura is when you apply the same buff as before (and green aura indicates that whatever buff you did, you're not getting anymore buff).  I'm guessing yellow aura is the same thing, except for debuff.  And as for Stat up and down after another, I think it cancels each other out, making it neutral.  At least, that was true for HP Up/Down.  I'm guessing it's the same for other stat up/down.  So if an enemy did Power Down on you, and you want to increase your melee attack (relative to the normal state), then you need to apply Power Up twice.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Zimgief on December 02, 2021, 08:30:13 am
Quote
First of all, I can confirm that v1.8 made the enemies (at least Black Rabite) not counter any skills.  I just tried it.  I spammed the attack skills, and BR didnt' counter at all.

This might be a dangerous thought, but is there a way to make the "countering enemies/bosses" (such as Bill/Ben, Lugar, and Black Rabite) use their counter skills randomly (instead of those skills being activated by being attacked by magic), just like the "non-countering enemies/bosses"? (such as Full Metal Hagger, Jewel Eater, and Tsenker)  Of course, all bosses should keep their unique HP threshold moves (such as Knights starting the fight with a Saber magic, and Lugar/Gildervine transforming, and Black Rabite using the spell combo and Ancient).  That way, the players will have to be always vigilant, instead of just using melee to not activate the counters (personally, I think Luck Denies Counter still discourages players to use skills, simply because there's an option to not activate the counter skills at all -- by just using the boring melee).  While I was testing, I fought against Black Rabite, and I specifically didn't use any skills (I only had v1.8 enabled), and honestly, BR was extremely easy.  But if BR used his counter skills randomly (like Supersonic, or Great Demon summon), then I would constantly have to be vigilant (esp my healers), which would make the fights more difficult and interesting.  Actually, some players might still die, because player damaged BR enough to activate the spell combo, while BR was activating a random powerful skill.  But that's half the fun.  Being vigilant while fighting.

Just a thought.
Interesting. It would definitely make skills stronger, without any feelbad using them. But it lowers one of luck's new strength. Overall, I think it would make the game better. Counters is a weak mechanic to begin with, but I never thought of getting rid of it. If praetarius5018 doesn't do it (if it strays too much from the original game design) I would appreciate that you make a patch for it.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on December 02, 2021, 05:53:13 pm
This might be a dangerous thought, but is there a way to make the "countering enemies/bosses" (such as Bill/Ben, Lugar, and Black Rabite) use their counter skills randomly (instead of those skills being activated by being attacked by magic), just like the "non-countering enemies/bosses"? (such as Full Metal Hagger, Jewel Eater, and Tsenker)  Of course, all bosses should keep their unique HP threshold moves (such as Knights starting the fight with a Saber magic, and Lugar/Gildervine transforming, and Black Rabite using the spell combo and Ancient).  That way, the players will have to be always vigilant, instead of just using melee to not activate the counters (personally, I think Luck Denies Counter still discourages players to use skills, simply because there's an option to not activate the counter skills at all -- by just using the boring melee).  While I was testing, I fought against Black Rabite, and I specifically didn't use any skills (I only had v1.8 enabled), and honestly, BR was extremely easy.  But if BR used his counter skills randomly (like Supersonic, or Great Demon summon), then I would constantly have to be vigilant (esp my healers), which would make the fights more difficult and interesting.  Actually, some players might still die, because player damaged BR enough to activate the spell combo, while BR was activating a random powerful skill.  But that's half the fun.  Being vigilant while fighting.

Huh.  I didnt' think about that.  That sounds good, at least on paper.  But you need to understand that it may raise the difficulty a bit too much.  I mean, because of bad draw from RNG, Bill/Ben may both end up spamming Shadow Dive.  Or Lugar might end up spamming Seiryuu Death Fist (which equals total party kill).  Or a group of normal enemies with lv3 tech enemies (ex: Bloody Wolves x2) may end up giving you total party kill.  Having said that, I do agree that Black Rabite needs a bit of help.  If you cast Anti Magic on him and only use melee, he only uses skills twice (spell combo, and Ancient) in the very long fight.  Maybe just change Black Rabite, and leave the rest alone?  I don't know if that's even possible.  I always enjoyed watching BR summoning Lv99 Great Demons.

I think the green aura is when you apply the same buff as before (and green aura indicates that whatever buff you did, you're not getting anymore buff).  I'm guessing yellow aura is the same thing, except for debuff.  And as for Stat up and down after another, I think it cancels each other out, making it neutral.  At least, that was true for HP Up/Down.  I'm guessing it's the same for other stat up/down.  So if an enemy did Power Down on you, and you want to increase your melee attack (relative to the normal state), then you need to apply Power Up twice.

Thanks.

Btw, for your next Balance update, can you give guys like Duran and Kevin some non-screen-freezing skills, like Firedrake's flamebreath?  That'll be very interesting.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 03, 2021, 12:04:16 am
If praetarius5018 doesn't do it (if it strays too much from the original game design) I would appreciate that you make a patch for it.

I'm afraid I don't have the skills to make that.  If I did, I would have already made it.  I can only plead to praetarius5018 and hope that he makes it.

Btw, for your next Balance update, can you give guys like Duran and Kevin some non-screen-freezing skills, like Firedrake's flamebreath?  That'll be very interesting.

I don't know how to do that.  I don't even know where to look for that one.  I'd sure like to experiment.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 03, 2021, 12:53:09 pm
This might be a dangerous thought, but is there a way to make the "countering enemies/bosses" (such as Bill/Ben, Lugar, and Black Rabite) use their counter skills randomly (instead of those skills being activated by being attacked by magic), just like the "non-countering enemies/bosses"?
For my other hack I managed to make those reactions triggerable by melee damage as well (instead of RNG it is a "aggro meter").
So in a way the answer is: yes.


Also, I think M.Def buff is a bit too much.  Based on the number, M.Def Up should only raise the M.Def by 20%.  Duran had M.Def of 138, and with the buff, he got 165.  So he should only reduce the damage by ~27 points, right?  But when I got attacked by BR's Dark Force, the damage got almost halved (216 reduced to 114 points).  But that doesn't seem to be the case for M.Def Down (Angela did 367 damage with Evil Gate against BR, and the same spell did 467 when BR had M.Def down).  That seemed a bit weird.  Can you check that out, and if possible, make M.Def buff a bit less powerful?
Yeah, the m.def (de)buff does not only change the m.def value itself but gets also checked in the spell damage formula and does the opposite to the m.atk before m.def. Which has the weird effect that you need both def buffs to protect against several boss only spells (those that target p.def); p.def up for the raw increase of def and m.def up for the further 20% decrease before def.
Dunno if I should change that, that would be going too far for a "bug fix" patch.


Btw, for your next Balance update, can you give guys like Duran and Kevin some non-screen-freezing skills, like Firedrake's flamebreath?  That'll be very interesting.
This sounds dangerously close to SoM levels of magic stun locking becoming a thing again.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 03, 2021, 05:53:19 pm
For my other hack I managed to make those reactions triggerable by melee damage as well (instead of RNG it is a "aggro meter").
So in a way the answer is: yes.

I feel like Aggro Meter is a little overkill, but I'm definitely okay with that too.  So could you apply that to your patch?  If Aggro Meter is indeed overkill, could you apply it as RNG?  I'm okay with anything as long as it doesn't discourage players from using skills (ex: I think your Luck Denies Counter less discourages skill usage than vanilla, but it still discourages skill usage), but still makes the bosses harder by having them use their skills more than once (esp Black Rabite).

Yeah, the m.def (de)buff does not only change the m.def value itself but gets also checked in the spell damage formula and does the opposite to the m.atk before m.def. Which has the weird effect that you need both def buffs to protect against several boss only spells (those that target p.def); p.def up for the raw increase of def and m.def up for the further 20% decrease before def.
Dunno if I should change that, that would be going too far for a "bug fix" patch.

Yeah, so I tested the vanilla version, after soul_knight told me about it.  I think the original M.Def buff/debuff worked just fine (vanilla Magic Shield), but M.Effectiveness was what was screwing things up.  So if you simply get rid of the M.Def buff that M.Effectiveness gave, and simply kept the vanilla M.Def buff, I think things will work well.  And it would be in line with "bug fix" patch, since the vanilla already had working M.Def buff/debuff.

This sounds dangerously close to SoM levels of magic stun locking becoming a thing again.

I think he meant the slow-acting melee skills, similar to Lv1 techs, except those skills have a lot more recoil.  Things like Machine Golem's Rocket Punch, or Firedrake's firebreath, or King Rabite's Rabite Rainstorm.  The enemy guide from gamefaqs called them "e-skills".  I don't think they can be used to stunlock anything, as they have very large recoil.

Did you perhaps enable those for characters in your Sin of Mana?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 03, 2021, 06:13:50 pm
I feel like Aggro Meter is a little overkill, but I'm definitely okay with that too.  So could you apply that to your patch?  If Aggro Meter is indeed overkill, could you apply it as RNG?  I'm okay with anything as long as it doesn't discourage players from using skills (ex: I think your Luck Denies Counter less discourages skill usage than vanilla, but it still discourages skill usage), but still makes the bosses harder by having them use their skills more than once (esp Black Rabite).
Not sure I should, this would be a big difficulty spike for certain bosses like Bill/Ben and Lugar.


So if you simply get rid of the M.Def buff that M.Effectiveness gave, and simply kept the vanilla M.Def buff, I think things will work well.  And it would be in line with "bug fix" patch, since the vanilla already had working M.Def buff/debuff.
Mind Up gives both flags: +m.atk, +m.def
Magic Shield only gives: +m.def

In vanilla the actual modification to your m.def stat was governed by +m.atk, in the fix patch I moved that to +m.def since as you pointed out earlier it made magic shield worse as a defense spell than mind up.
The +m.def flag just reduces taken spell damage by 20% before atk, this is not changed.

So... what exactly should I change here now? Remove the +20% m.def stat?


I think he meant the slow-acting melee skills, similar to Lv1 techs, except those skills have a lot more recoil.  Things like Machine Golem's Rocket Punch, or Firedrake's firebreath, or King Rabite's Rabite Rainstorm.  The enemy guide from gamefaqs called them "e-skills".  I don't think they can be used to stunlock anything, as they have very large recoil.

Did you perhaps enable those for characters in your Sin of Mana?
Did not, couldn't if I wanted to; those "e-skills" are half just their L1 techs and have spells with ids out of range; Firedrake's fire breath would be id 1AB and your spell menu can only handle 8 bit ids, so FF or lower.
And even if that was solved those would most likely not work as player characters don't have animation data for that or any other reason SD3 can think up to screw you over.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 03, 2021, 07:20:08 pm
Not sure I should, this would be a big difficulty spike for certain bosses like Bill/Ben and Lugar.

Yeah.  But at least it would be fair, in that Angela won't be the only one who suffers.  I don't mind Lugar being harder, but Bill/Ben fight may indeed be a bit harder.  This is the sort of thing that really needs to be tested out, I suppose.  What is certain is that BR needs a bit of help.

How does everyone else think about this?  I'd sure like to know.

Also, I'm just checking, but are there any of the big bosses who do counters? (so Full Metal Hagger, Jewel Eater, Tsenker, Gorva, Genova, Gildervine, God-Beasts, final bosses)  Only the little bosses do counters, right?


Mind Up gives both flags: +m.atk, +m.def
Magic Shield only gives: +m.def

In vanilla the actual modification to your m.def stat was governed by +m.atk, in the fix patch I moved that to +m.def since as you pointed out earlier it made magic shield worse as a defense spell than mind up.
The +m.def flag just reduces taken spell damage by 20% before atk, this is not changed.

So... what exactly should I change here now? Remove the +20% m.def stat?

Actually, I figured you can just delete the m.def that was initially in the m.attack.  You know, "in the fix patch I moved that to +m.def since as you pointed out earlier it made magic shield worse as a defense spell than mind up" m.def.  That way, the vanilla m.def will still be used (which is the weaker version).  Did I overlook anything?

Did not, couldn't if I wanted to; those "e-skills" are half just their L1 techs and have spells with ids out of range; Firedrake's fire breath would be id 1AB and your spell menu can only handle 8 bit ids, so FF or lower.
And even if that was solved those would most likely not work as player characters don't have animation data for that or any other reason SD3 can think up to screw you over.

Yeah, you're right about that, in all accounts.  Well, worth a thought.  Not my idea, but still.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Zimgief on December 04, 2021, 03:58:51 am
For counters, I suppose it can be balanced so to trigger more or less often depending on the boss?
Even, if Bill and Ben are supposed to punish the player if he tries too fancy  (i.e. you are not supposed to use any skill during their fight), they can counter as normal, but not the other bosses ?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on December 04, 2021, 05:06:19 am
I'm okay with either RNG or Aggro Meter.  If I have to pick one, I would prefer Aggro Meter, assuming it's only for melee (otherwise, one Death Spell or something powerful will trigger the counter).  I like something new, and as I said earlier, bad draw of RNG may randomly kill your whole party.  Too bad I can't control the stupid AIs to not use melee.  And melee Aggro Meter will probably count against the double hitters, which is a good thing.  And since it's being used in Sin of Mana (which I'm sure has been tested well), then it must be good.

Aggro Meter may not make Bill/Ben as hard, because the melee characters will attack two different targets (that also applies to Machine Golem bosses).  Lugar and Black Rabite will be hard -- all 3 will wail on one target, which will trigger Aggro Meter counter, but that's a good thing, as it'll make others back off a bit.  It really depends on how Aggro Meter works (is it based on how many hits it received in a given time, or does it depend on the total damage received?).
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Messianic on December 04, 2021, 02:20:59 pm
I’m a fan of cool downs, specifically for normal enemies and party wide spells that there’s atleast a 2 second window before another party wide ability can be used, unless it’s two very weak ones.

It would have to be global though, so that if a Petit Tiamat uses Thunderstorm, the cool down has to hit 0 before any Nightblades could do their Silhouette Slice thing.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 05, 2021, 11:04:33 am
I don't have the ram here to make a aggro meter (I changed some ram parts in the other hack but that is too much effort for this one), so I'll make it as RNG chance.
I'll go with 1/8 of the counter vs spell chance.
E.g. 20 luck vs Darkshine Knight would be 20 in 51 to not get a counter with a spell or 31/51=60.7% to get countered, so melee would have ~7.6% to trigger his skills.


Actually, I figured you can just delete the m.def that was initially in the m.attack.  You know, "in the fix patch I moved that to +m.def since as you pointed out earlier it made magic shield worse as a defense spell than mind up" m.def.  That way, the vanilla m.def will still be used (which is the weaker version).  Did I overlook anything?
The more I read it the less I understand what the issue is...

Assume we have 400 m.atk spell vs 150 m.def target, so 250 damage normal.
If we add mind up/magic shield to the target we'd now have:
400 m.atk -> 320 m.atk and 150 m.def -> 180 m.def, so 140 damage.
What exactly is your goal in that example?


It seems that the new bugfix patch doesn't give the bonus EXP to the enemies with 00 Exp flag (ex: Armor Knight, Silver Knight, Dark Lord, Ninja Master, Wizard, Evil Sword, Black Fang, etc).  Changing that value to 80 fixes the problem, as 80 and 00 give the same EXP.
The weird thing is, it is not for the enemies without the 80 flag but ONLY for those with exactly the value 00. This game, man...


submitted v1.9
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: kaine23 on December 05, 2021, 12:58:41 pm
there a collection of all of these together?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 05, 2021, 06:42:28 pm
I don't have the ram here to make a aggro meter (I changed some ram parts in the other hack but that is too much effort for this one), so I'll make it as RNG chance.
I'll go with 1/8 of the counter vs spell chance.
E.g. 20 luck vs Darkshine Knight would be 20 in 51 to not get a counter with a spell or 31/51=60.7% to get countered, so melee would have ~7.6% to trigger his skills.

Yikes.  7.6% RNG melee seems extremely high.  That's gonna leave a mark.  The first Bill/Ben will be a nightmare.

The more I read it the less I understand what the issue is...

Assume we have 400 m.atk spell vs 150 m.def target, so 250 damage normal.
If we add mind up/magic shield to the target we'd now have:
400 m.atk -> 320 m.atk and 150 m.def -> 180 m.def, so 140 damage.
What exactly is your goal in that example?

That may be because I absolutely suck at explaining things.  My apologies.  In your example, I wanted Magic Shield to not change anything in m.atk (so 400 m.atk remaine as it is), and 150 m.def to become 200 m.def (+33%) -- +20% was too small for sure though.  Basically the same as Power up and Protect Up, except for m.atk and m.def.

The weird thing is, it is not for the enemies without the 80 flag but ONLY for those with exactly the value 00. This game, man...

Must be because the value 00 must trigger something unintended (which explains why devs decided to use 80, although they clearly missed on some things).

Thanks for v1.9.  I shall try it out (load from one of the saves).

December 06, 2021, 04:36:43 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
there a collection of all of these together?

Nope.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 06, 2021, 12:25:55 pm
I feel like Aggro Meter is a little overkill, but I'm definitely okay with that too.  So could you apply that to your patch?  If Aggro Meter is indeed overkill, could you apply it as RNG?  I'm okay with anything as long as it doesn't discourage players from using skills (ex: I think your Luck Denies Counter less discourages skill usage than vanilla, but it still discourages skill usage), but still makes the bosses harder by having them use their skills more than once (esp Black Rabite).
Yikes.  7.6% RNG melee seems extremely high.  That's gonna leave a mark.  The first Bill/Ben will be a nightmare.
If 7.6% (about 1 in 13) is "extremely high", what exactly did you expect with your request?


That may be because I absolutely suck at explaining things.  My apologies.  In your example, I wanted Magic Shield to not change anything in m.atk (so 400 m.atk remaine as it is), and 150 m.def to become 200 m.def (+33%) -- +20% was too small for sure though.  Basically the same as Power up and Protect Up, except for m.atk and m.def.
Def up is the same as M.def up: 20%; the problem is that m.def is for players roughly half as high as p.def (best armor has x15 p.def but only x8 m.def).
For p.def you could get up to 60 damage reduction and the relevant attacks are much more frequent.
In 1.9 I reduced the 20% m.atk reduction to 12.5%; that changes the example to:
400 - 150 = 250 => 350 - 180 = 170, 80 damage less.
Which is imo a more acceptable level, 80 vs 60 reduction.


Must be because the value 00 must trigger something unintended (which explains why devs decided to use 80, although they clearly missed on some things).
Nah, that one was on me;
there was a check that explicitly checked against 00, if yes don't change the exp value; in case of 80 it calculated 0% of the exp and then reduced the exp by those 0%, meaning nothing changes.
My exp rubber band happened after that 00 check. So I just had to remove the 00 check since -0% was already ok, so why not +0%.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 06, 2021, 07:02:48 pm
If 7.6% (about 1 in 13) is "extremely high", what exactly did you expect with your request?

My apologies.  I don't mean to frustrate you, nor do I intend on sounding ungrateful.  In fact, I'm very grateful, for everything you've done.

First of all, your hack is working as intended.  Definitely counters melee and magic (tested both separately).

I think I need to use reference.  I fought against Lugar, with a team of Kevin D, Hawk L, and Carlie D, all 3 at Lv21.  I only used melee attacks, to see how often I get countered.  I fought him twice, and in both times, Lugar used his techs at least 16 times (I may have missed some), and Energy Ball once (I didn't even know Lugar can use Energy Ball).  If I subtract 2 techs (because 2 of his techs are HP threshold), that's 14 Lv2/3 techs and one Energy Ball.  That's a little too high, imho.  I was busy casting Carlie's MT Heal Light so much, and I had to use 4 Angel's Grail to revive dead Hawk or Carlie (usually because Lugar used two techs in a row -- the guy did that 5 times in the 2nd fight -- thank god some of those were throws instead of MT techs).  Oh, and Lugar killed my whole party once too.  Yeah... the difficulty spike was a little too much.  But if the frequency decreased, the difficulty spike won't be as much, which will make the fight significantly enjoyable.

I requested you to make the enemies into pure "RNG attack randomly, just like the big bosses".  But I must say that I like the melee counters too -- in fact, better than just pure RNG attacks that I initially requested.  The problem is the frequency of the counters.  Getting countered so frequently is a little... much.  I'm hoping the melee counter rate will be at least half of current (something like ~7 times per Lugar fight, hopefully).  I really don't want to be comboed by anyone, except against Black Rabite.  That's just a death sentence.

And the magic counter.  I used Angela (with a team of Duran and Kevin), and she got countered rather frequently.  I didn't count, because I kept running out of my resource due to high counters (only had 1 Magic Walnut), and had to eventually resort to melee to continue the fight.  I think someone mentioned it before (was it me?), but I'm hoping the counter denial will be a bit higher for skills (if the Luck is raised frequently, 40~60% with the worst Luck characters, and 70~90% with the highest Luck character -- yes, to make Hawk L classes better).  There really shouldn't be too many counters (I think that was one of the worst things in vanilla, hence why I requested No Skill Counter and why so many people PMed me for it when I removed it), although just barely here and there to remind the players that there's a chance for counter.

Def up is the same as M.def up: 20%; the problem is that m.def is for players roughly half as high as p.def (best armor has x15 p.def but only x8 m.def).
For p.def you could get up to 60 damage reduction and the relevant attacks are much more frequent.
In 1.9 I reduced the 20% m.atk reduction to 12.5%; that changes the example to:
400 - 150 = 250 => 350 - 180 = 170, 80 damage less.
Which is imo a more acceptable level, 80 vs 60 reduction.

You're right.  That does sound better.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on December 07, 2021, 12:22:05 am
@hmsong

Haha.  I see that you're trying hard to say what's on your mind, but you're not very good at articulating your thoughts onto the screen.  Not that I'm any better, probably.

Anyways, can you give the Dart (item) a poison SE?  Dart is so useless, esp in the beginning of the game with the new mechanics.



@praetarius5018

Awesome.  I haven't tried the new version yet, but I shall try sometime soon.  I like how you kept your Luck stat relevant in determining the counter rate.

Based on what hmsong said, it seems that everything works great.  Having said that, I see that the problem I mentioned in the earlier post is reality now.  I don't mind the frequency of the melee counters -- ~15 times in a boss fight sounds reasonable -- slightly high, but not unreasonable.  The problem is the combo.  Getting hit twice in a row from Lugar's MT is indeed a total party kill.  Somewhat similar to what Messianic and hmsong said, could you make it so that enemies can't combo tech/magic?  That's just an overkill.  I know it's RNG, but getting your whole party wiped out by a bad draw of RNG is... less than desirable.  If it's Black Rabite or the final bosses, I'm okay, but for all other bosses, that's just an overkill.  Can that happen with the normal enemies too?

What do you think?

Can someone try fighting the first Bill/Ben fight, with 3 characters not including Carlie?  Your characters should be ~Lv12.  The recovery item will be limited, so the fight is gonna be extremely hard, I imagine.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 07, 2021, 04:16:27 am
Haha.  I see that you're trying hard to say what's on your mind, but you're not very good at articulating your thoughts onto the screen.  Not that I'm any better, probably.

I feel like you're being passively insulting me, but I'll let that go.  Jk.  It's true that I suck at articulating my thoughts.  Gotta work on that.

Anyways, can you give the Dart (item) a poison SE?  Dart is so useless, esp in the beginning of the game with the new mechanics.

Uhh.  I think Darts are supposed to suck.  It's just a mean to use "magic" in the beginning of the game for those who can't use it.  I mean, Darts are 5 Luc, meaning 9 of them are 45 Luc, which is absurdly cheap.  That's why I upped the cost to 10 Luc in the Item (so 9 are 90 Luc).  Besides, I'm guessing you won't be using Darts at normal enemies.  But bosses are immune to all SEs, so giving it Poison SE will be meaningless.  In fact, all it will do is make Porons more difficult (they can use Darts in the beginning of the battle, or use it as a counter).  I can make Darts stronger, but again, making Darts stronger will make Porons more difficult.  I'm not sure how productive that'll be.



@praetarius5018

Holy crap.  I just fought Darkshine Knight with Duran, Angela, and Hawk (at Lv44), only using melee.  DSK used his MT tech 3 times in a row.  I was already dead by the 2nd tech, but DSK used another MT tech on my corpse.  Talk about overkill.  Yeah.  Combos are definitely a problem.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 07, 2021, 12:12:38 pm
Holy crap.  I just fought Darkshine Knight with Duran, Angela, and Hawk (at Lv44), only using melee.  DSK used his MT tech 3 times in a row.  I was already dead by the 2nd tech, but DSK used another MT tech on my corpse.  Talk about overkill.  Yeah.  Combos are definitely a problem.
The whole thing is a textbook example of "be careful what you wish for you might get exactly what you ask".
Even if it was only 1%, nothing stops you from getting 3 of those within like 5-7 hits. Since it is chance per hit it penalizes Hawk and Kevin extra. though that may be fair since they also gain TP at twice the rate.

So what now? How do you want to proceed with this?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: ifightdragons on December 07, 2021, 12:52:47 pm
there a collection of all of these together?

Second this. There are so many individual patches for SoM 2 and 3 at this point, it's almost impossible to wade through them all.
Not to mention the frequent and neverending updates.
 
A finalized, single download would be incredible... much like the Zelda Redux projects. It would draw a lot more people to the games.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: kaine23 on December 07, 2021, 02:03:05 pm
Nope.
Bummer. :(
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Zimgief on December 07, 2021, 03:12:31 pm
I don't know what hmsong meant by "3 times in a row": did one of the character strike the enemy between each counter?
If not - that is, that counters are are checked for each strike and stacked until all occur - said stack could be emptied after one counter?

Regarding a correct percentage for melee counters... The ideal should be a ratio of damage inflicted/damage received equilavent to that of the use of skills?

At the very least, if melee counters were a bad idea, I was worth trying I guess (experimentation and iteration are how games are developed :) ).
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 07, 2021, 03:57:04 pm
I don't know what hmsong meant by "3 times in a row": did one of the character strike the enemy between each counter?
If not - that is, that counters are are checked for each strike and stacked until all occur - said stack could be emptied after one counter?
it probably works the same way as poisoned silver knights spamming 3-5 tinkle rains - I'm not dealing with that.

Regarding a correct percentage for melee counters... The ideal should be a ratio of damage inflicted/damage received equilavent to that of the use of skills?
ok, so lets assume death spell or a lv2 spell with mind up, mind down and correct day hitting a weakness or something; should put us into the 800-999 range.

what do we compare it to?
duelist duran, power up, elemental saber vs def down'd final boss?
so 350 atk x 1.2 x 1.5 - (220 x 0.8 ) = 630 - 176 = 454
that is not even getting to techs or crits...
you're right, I should increase the 1/8 of spell counter rate to 1/2
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Messianic on December 07, 2021, 08:24:17 pm
Melee Counter is a fascinating thing to me, and perhaps 1/16th of Spell Counter is the way to go. I think having melee possibly trigger stuff lends to solving the whole "I don't want to nuke enemies, so I'll just melee all day" issue.

My only concern is if your party is positioned in such a way that each party member is hitting multiple enemies per swing, the chance of getting "juggled" with counters becomes quite high.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 07, 2021, 08:42:45 pm
The whole thing is a textbook example of "be careful what you wish for you might get exactly what you ask".
Even if it was only 1%, nothing stops you from getting 3 of those within like 5-7 hits. Since it is chance per hit it penalizes Hawk and Kevin extra. though that may be fair since they also gain TP at twice the rate.

So what now? How do you want to proceed with this?

Well, I think the idea of creating any hack is to improve what was done (including your own hacks).  A person presents an idea, and someone creates it, then tests it out to see the flaws of the creation, then correct those flaws.  That's why I value feedback.  I'm sure you feel the same way, although it can get annoying from time to time.

Anyways, there are 3 ways I can think of to resolve the comboing issue.

1. Make the small bosses (and enemies) do what the big bosses do -- use magic/tech every 10 sec or something (maybe you can make it so that [char Luck vs target Level] is a factor in determining the magic attack frequency).  Yes, that means Counters (melee or magic) are no longer used.  That'll resolve any combo issues.  This was actually my request, although I admit I worded my request very poorly.

2. Disable counters for magic (this will encourage players to use magic/tech), but enable melee counter.  The melee counter rate should be ~3% (as recent experiment indicated, ~7% is too high).  Not sure how to apply Luck stat here though.  And yes, this may result in the bosses still using "skill combo" which may result in total party kill, but the rate of that happening will be significantly less.  Of course, if it still happens, then you gotta reset and start over, but the idea is to reduce the chance.  And again, it'll encourage players to use magic and Lv2/3 techs more frequently, which is good.

3. This may be a bit confusing.  I'll try to articulate as best as I can.

Using 20 Luck vs Darkshine Knight example, the counter rate being out of 51 made the players (err, me) be very afraid of using skills.  I mean, even at 20 Luck (that's the highest of all char/class at Lv44), the magic counter rate is still whooping 61%?  I think that's too much.  Also, I don't know where you got "51".  If your previous formula for boss is (25+target level/2), then DSK's Lv being 44, the number must be out of 47.  A typo?

Therefore, I think the number should be out of (5+target level/2) for regular enemies or (10+target level/2) for bosses, and melee counter should be 1/16 instead of 1/8.  Hawk LD's max Luck (highest Luck char/class) at Lv44 is 20.  So against Lv44 enemies, regular enemies have 7/27 (26%) chance to magic counter and 1.6% of melee counter (this is significantly more reasonable, because most dangerous regular enemies have HP threshold techs), and bosses have 12/32 (37.5%) chance to magic counter and 2.3% of melee counter.  And that's the best case scenario, since Hawk has the highest Luck.  Most characters will have ~16 Luck (if it's raised), which results in higher counter rate.



@kaine23, @ifightdragons

First of all, the reason for having multiple hacks is so that people can choose what hacks to use and what not to use.  I can't make something that can use "toggle" function, like SoM Turbo.  If you have some suggestion (something specific, like "use program xxx to make a toggle function"), then please point it out to me.  If it's viable (and I'm intelligent enough to learn it), then I shall use it to meet your request.

Second, while I can complie all my hacks into one, that's only ~7 hacks (most people seem to only use ~4 hacks), which takes less than 20 sec to patch.  I think it's pretty reasonable to ask people to spend their 20 seconds to patch the hacks.

Third, everytime I update my hack (which is rather frequent, as you pointed out), the compilation hack will have to be updated too, which instantly doubles my work (and it's a pain to submit hacks to RHDN).  Now, I can make it so that I have one whole compilation and get rid of everything else (that'll make my work much simpler, as I'll only have to deal with one hack whenever I update), but then, people won't have a choice on what to use and what not to use.  I'm fairly certain that most people want to choose.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Zimgief on December 08, 2021, 03:59:17 am
it probably works the same way as poisoned silver knights spamming 3-5 tinkle rains - I'm not dealing with that.
ok, so lets assume death spell or a lv2 spell with mind up, mind down and correct day hitting a weakness or something; should put us into the 800-999 range.

what do we compare it to?
duelist duran, power up, elemental saber vs def down'd final boss?
so 350 atk x 1.2 x 1.5 - (220 x 0.8 ) = 630 - 176 = 454
that is not even getting to techs or crits...
you're right, I should increase the 1/8 of spell counter rate to 1/2
My second point (fixed ratio) was assuming the first one (resest stack of counters).
Still, it gives perspectives: the ratio is in favour of melee, and still, the stackability is far more dangerous.

Maybe the wisest thing would be no counters at all (nor magic, nor melee), and a random chance to trigger the skill, with at least some frames between activations to allow players to recover even if they are unlucky.
The formula for the random activations could take into account the highest luck or a the average between all members?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 08, 2021, 12:26:45 pm
Maybe the wisest thing would be no counters at all (nor magic, nor melee), and a random chance to trigger the skill, with at least some frames between activations to allow players to recover even if they are unlucky.
The formula for the random activations could take into account the highest luck or a the average between all members?
You volunteer to program that? I abstain from that idea.


1. Make the small bosses (and enemies) do what the big bosses do -- use magic/tech every 10 sec or something (maybe you can make it so that [char Luck vs target Level] is a factor in determining the magic attack frequency).  Yes, that means Counters (melee or magic) are no longer used.  That'll resolve any combo issues.  This was actually my request, although I admit I worded my request very poorly.
I've no idea how to do that, so no.


2. Disable counters for magic (this will encourage players to use magic/tech), but enable melee counter.  The melee counter rate should be ~3% (as recent experiment indicated, ~7% is too high).  Not sure how to apply Luck stat here though.  And yes, this may result in the bosses still using "skill combo" which may result in total party kill, but the rate of that happening will be significantly less.  Of course, if it still happens, then you gotta reset and start over, but the idea is to reduce the chance.  And again, it'll encourage players to use magic and Lv2/3 techs more frequently, which is good.
Denied, goes too far away from vanilla.


Also, I don't know where you got "51".  If your previous formula for boss is (25+target level/2), then DSK's Lv being 44, the number must be out of 47.  A typo?
No idea, I used the DSK from the debug room and looked what the rate was in the code; maybe it is a higher level or something.


3. This may be a bit confusing.  I'll try to articulate as best as I can.

Using 20 Luck vs Darkshine Knight example, the counter rate being out of 51 made the players (err, me) be very afraid of using skills.  I mean, even at 20 Luck (that's the highest of all char/class at Lv44), the magic counter rate is still whooping 61%?  I think that's too much. 

(...)

Therefore, I think the number should be out of (5+target level/2) for regular enemies or (10+target level/2) for bosses, and melee counter should be 1/16 instead of 1/8.  Hawk LD's max Luck (highest Luck char/class) at Lv44 is 20.  So against Lv44 enemies, regular enemies have 7/27 (26%) chance to magic counter and 1.6% of melee counter (this is significantly more reasonable, because most dangerous regular enemies have HP threshold techs), and bosses have 12/32 (37.5%) chance to magic counter and 2.3% of melee counter.  And that's the best case scenario, since Hawk has the highest Luck.  Most characters will have ~16 Luck (if it's raised), which results in higher counter rate.
Considering that spells deal 1.5-4x damage at best (assuming some form of buffs because that should be our baseline and not very suboptimal play) 1/16th the rate seems very wrong.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 08, 2021, 06:04:34 pm
Denied, goes too far away from vanilla.

Oh.  That's a shame.  I thought #2 was the most realistic and optimal outcome.  I don't think it's very far from vanilla (since you're just transferring vanilla magic counter to melee counter, at a reduced rate), but that's just my humble opinion.

No idea, I used the DSK from the debug room and looked what the rate was in the code; maybe it is a higher level or something.

The DSK from the debug room is map 983, and he's at Lv44 too.  Just a suggestion, but perhaps you should recheck your magic counter formula, because something may be up.  That may explain why the counter rate is so high (higher than you intended).

Considering that spells deal 1.5-4x damage at best (assuming some form of buffs because that should be our baseline and not very suboptimal play) 1/16th the rate seems very wrong.

I know it seems that way, but 1/8th has very high chance of melee counters stacking, which is pretty much a death sentence for your whole party.  I might sort of get by for the current melee counter rate (which is rather high imho), but the counters stacking on top of another and then everything coming at once is just... too much.  Nothing I can do, since I can't even access the menu to use any items to heal.  And always assuming that the characters are buffed and enemies are debuffed is... not right.  That just makes the game unnecessarily difficult, unless you're specifically fighting the secret boss or the final boss (those should always be hard).

Even if you're not inclined to reduce the 1/8th to 1/16th, reducing the magic counter chance may reduce the melee counter chance, since the melee counter chance depends on the magic counter chance (unless I'm wrong about that).  I don't know how much it'll be reduced though.

Obviously, it's up to you.  But I feel that making a hack that gives satisfaction to as many people as possible is the best way to go (to certain extent).  Making the game so difficult that it becomes frustrating seems... a bit counterproductive.  Don't get me wrong though.  I love your hack, and there's definitely more positives from it.  I'm sure most people here feel the same way.  But I feel that it could be improved further by overcoming certain flaws (assuming those are flaws in your eyes).  Of course, if you have betters ways to overcome the flaws, then I'm all for that too.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 09, 2021, 12:30:37 pm
The DSK from the debug room is map 983, and he's at Lv44 too.  Just a suggestion, but perhaps you should recheck your magic counter formula, because something may be up.  That may explain why the counter rate is so high (higher than you intended).
Does an active cheat count that gave him Lv60?


And always assuming that the characters are buffed and enemies are debuffed is... not right.
I'm of the opposite opinion; (de)buffs are there to be used, so at least for boss fights that MUST be taken into consideration.


Of course, if you have betters ways to overcome the flaws, then I'm all for that too.
Ok, so if 7% is too much for how about scaling it compared to the damage dealt?
Yes this does make it even worse for melee, I'm AGAINST still playing favorites with melee as it currently it.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Messianic on December 09, 2021, 06:18:03 pm
How about when Bill/Ben/Luger land 4 attacks they have a 25% chance to use a lv 1 tech or for the ninjas, shurikens. 3 hits later a 50/50 chance to use a lv 2 tech for Lugar or hits is for the ninjas, and a 50% chance to wait for 2 more hits to use a lv 3 tech. This way they imitate the party with building up the tech meter.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 09, 2021, 07:38:42 pm
Does an active cheat count that gave him Lv60?

Oh.  That's a different story.

I'm of the opposite opinion; (de)buffs are there to be used, so at least for boss fights that MUST be taken into consideration.

I guess you're right, for Lugar and the later bosses, but not before Lugar -- you don't even have access to Heal Light before that, unless you specifically have Carlie.  Or level grind.

Ok, so if 7% is too much for how about scaling it compared to the damage dealt?
Yes this does make it even worse for melee, I'm AGAINST still playing favorites with melee as it currently it.

I'm actually all for melee counters.  I didn't think about it, but when you created it, I thought it was a really great idea, hence why I suggested #2 method (melee counters, and no magic counters -- very much encourages magic/Lv2+ techs).  You can choose to not use magic, but you can't choose to not use melee (thank you, dumbass AIs).  The problem was the high frequency of melee counters, which resulted in counter combos.  And that resulted in a HUGE difficulty spike, which I don't think is a good idea, at least to such magnitude.

If you're gonna use scales to the damage dealt, then I guess it really depends on how much damage has been dealt (1/7th of Max HP sounds good, to avoid 25% and 50% HP threshold comboing).  If the "damage dealt" threshold is small, then it'll pretty much result in counters happening very frequently, which means counters will stack on top of another counter, which brings the problem right back.  As I and some others pointed out earlier, the biggest issue is the stacking combo counter.  I mean, DSK desecrated my corpses after total party kill with his three MT techs combo.  I can see that happening with the first Machine Golems and first Bill/Ben too, when you don't have much resource due to money still being an issue.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 10, 2021, 02:32:45 am
Tbh, it should be a "flat" amount and not based on the actual damage dealt; if we went with the later it would be very hard to avoid a tripple combo of tripping the 3/7th, 50% and 4/7th (6428, 7500, 8571 for a 15k HP boss which is roughly the max before the two last boss fights) reactions in short order while you use (de)buffs (at least 800 from Angela + 2x 300 if Kevin uses a Lv1 tech, a bit of flag and another 1-2 swings from Kevin).
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 10, 2021, 04:27:44 am
Tbh, it should be a "flat" amount and not based on the actual damage dealt; if we went with the later it would be very hard to avoid a tripple combo of tripping the 3/7th, 50% and 4/7th (6428, 7500, 8571 for a 15k HP boss which is roughly the max before the two last boss fights) reactions in short order while you use (de)buffs (at least 800 from Angela + 2x 300 if Kevin uses a Lv1 tech, a bit of flag and another 1-2 swings from Kevin).

Not sure what you mean by "flat" amount, but you're definitely right about triple combo if it's 3/7th, 50%, 4/7th.  And there's probably more ways to get comboed (aka get killed violently).  Dang it, I have no idea how to overcome that.  But it seems you have some sort of idea.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 10, 2021, 12:23:54 pm
ok not "flat" but "fixed".
like spells and L2/3 techs add 40 x LUCK_ADJUST to aggro
and regular attacks and L1 techs add 15 x LUCK_ADJUST
and you trigger a counter when the total reaches 150-255 depending on enemy; maybe even have enemies lose some aggro points when they deal damage, dunno if that goes too far by now...
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Zimgief on December 10, 2021, 04:18:21 pm
From a gameplay perspective, this equates to resetting the stack of counters, as it avoids cbeing comboed. It sounds great!  :woot!:
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 10, 2021, 07:32:43 pm
ok not "flat" but "fixed".
like spells and L2/3 techs add 40 x LUCK_ADJUST to aggro
and regular attacks and L1 techs add 15 x LUCK_ADJUST
and you trigger a counter when the total reaches 150-255 depending on enemy; maybe even have enemies lose some aggro points when they deal damage, dunno if that goes too far by now...

Oh, so you're considering on using aggro meter of some kind?  Great!  Not sure what's a good number for aggro, but you have more exp with that, so I'll leave that to you.  If you're not using aggro meter, then I don't see any other solution other than to lower the counter rate (the problem being the counter combo).
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 11, 2021, 08:18:28 am
Oh, so you're considering on using aggro meter of some kind?  Great!  Not sure what's a good number for aggro, but you have more exp with that, so I'll leave that to you.
Not really; the "exp" I have with such a system lives in an environment where regular attacks deal very low damage and there's a player skill based way to reset the meter.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 11, 2021, 09:45:59 am
Not really; the "exp" I have with such a system lives in an environment where regular attacks deal very low damage and there's a player skill based way to reset the meter.

Oh.  Guess I misunderstood you.  Damn.  So any thoughts on how to overcome the flaws of counter combos?  Or maybe you explained, but I didn't understand well.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 11, 2021, 03:59:52 pm
Oh.  Guess I misunderstood you.  Damn.  So any thoughts on how to overcome the flaws of counter combos?  Or maybe you explained, but I didn't understand well.
I'll try to make an aggro meter system, mostly need to figure out what mentioned LUCK_ADJUST should be and whether or not there should be a aggro decay mechanic of sorts.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on December 11, 2021, 04:58:20 pm
@praetarius5018

Hey.  Thank you so much for your work.

Is it possible for you to make something, so that only Black Rabite drops his treasure 100% of the time?  I have a feeling that BR was supposed to drop his treasure 100% of the time, but the devs screwed something up somewhere.  You can also make only bosses drop the chests 100%, but that only affects Machine Golem (2nd time) and BR, so the result is the same, more or less.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 11, 2021, 06:24:41 pm
Not really; that logic is in the compressed section.
Changing anything there beyond a constant value goes way beyond the effort I'm willing to put into SD3 these days.

Making the proposed change to counterlogic would maybe take an hour; changing that chest logic? Can say goodbye to a whole weekend.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on December 12, 2021, 12:26:58 am
Not really; that logic is in the compressed section.
Changing anything there beyond a constant value goes way beyond the effort I'm willing to put into SD3 these days.

Making the proposed change to counterlogic would maybe take an hour; changing that chest logic? Can say goodbye to a whole weekend.

Ah.  Oh well.  Thanks anyways.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 14, 2021, 07:31:29 am
@praetarius5018

Hey.  I know that most enemies use Lise's stats (prob because she's the most rounded character), but which class of Lise do the enemies take?  LL?  DD?  Or does it depend on which class Lise chose, if she's on the team?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Mr X on December 14, 2021, 08:58:11 am
I think I will try to combine some of these hacks with the bugfix patch, especially the less experience to grind def that one

If there's one thing I would like even less exp required to level up. Imo level ups should he done naturally by simply beating enemies on your way through the dungeon instead of going in a grindfest, in the original game I barely even learned all the spells of the characters due to the tedious grind, so I ended up facing the final boss without learning all spells.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 14, 2021, 11:49:38 am
@praetarius5018

Hey.  I know that most enemies use Lise's stats (prob because she's the most rounded character), but which class of Lise do the enemies take?  LL?  DD?  Or does it depend on which class Lise chose, if she's on the team?
always regular -> L -> L/L
the game just uses the "brightness" 0 value.


If there's one thing I would like even less exp required to level up. Imo level ups should he done naturally by simply beating enemies on your way through the dungeon instead of going in a grindfest, in the original game I barely even learned all the spells of the characters due to the tedious grind, so I ended up facing the final boss without learning all spells.
Any suggestion how to accomplish that? Like, how much increase would be necessary?
We've hmsong's less grinding patch, fix patch has some rubber banding (up to +100% gain if 3 or more level behind), what more should be done?

Btw. someone has feedback on how much the rubberband helps for actual play?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on December 14, 2021, 06:34:53 pm
Btw. someone has feedback on how much the rubberband helps for actual play?

It helps a lot.  SOOO much less grinding.  It does sort of "punish" players if the player decides to not catch up the level and plow through the dungeon for the higher level enemies in the next dungeon, because the players would run out of money for the weapon/armor before fighting the said higher enemies (which will get you killed, or at least have you use up items).  Luckily, hmsong's less grinding gives a bit of surplus of money, but not enough to offset the "dungeon skippers".  And that's a good thing, imho, because it encourages players to catch up a bit before moving on.

Btw, it's not exactly 25%, 50%, and 100% (not that I'm complaining -- just reporting something I noticed).  For example, for Lampflower Mega Crawler, vanilla Lv22 drops 115 exp, Lv23 drops 129 exp, and Lv24 drops 145 exp.  If I were Lv21, then Lv22 drops 144 (+25.2%), Lv23 drops 203 (+57.3%), and Lv24 drops 286 (+97.2%).

I know someone is gonna disagree with this (I forget who), but can you make Mana Holy Day boost all elements, instead of none of them?  Mana Holy Day is so... mundane.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 15, 2021, 02:34:28 am
Btw, it's not exactly 25%, 50%, and 100% (not that I'm complaining -- just reporting something I noticed).  For example, for Lampflower Mega Crawler, vanilla Lv22 drops 115 exp, Lv23 drops 129 exp, and Lv24 drops 145 exp.  If I were Lv21, then Lv22 drops 144 (+25.2%), Lv23 drops 203 (+57.3%), and Lv24 drops 286 (+97.2%).
Sounds about right, asm based rounding (whole numbers each step) and all.
Truth be told, I just run a loop and increase the exp by 25% and +1 each iteration (max 3), so it should be more like 25%, 56.25%, 95.3125% at a minimum.
Easier to increase the max level difference that way instead of having a billion cases for each possible level difference.


I know someone is gonna disagree with this (I forget who), but can you make Mana Holy Day boost all elements, instead of none of them?  Mana Holy Day is so... mundane.
Glass cannon day!!
Maybe as an extra patch.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 15, 2021, 05:54:25 pm
I know someone is gonna disagree with this (I forget who), but can you make Mana Holy Day boost all elements, instead of none of them?  Mana Holy Day is so... mundane.

That was me.  I requested Mana Holy Day to boost Light or Dark, depending on the time of the day.  I still think that's a good idea, but apparently, nobody else thinks that.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: kaine23 on December 15, 2021, 06:01:31 pm
Im down for that
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 15, 2021, 06:14:59 pm
That was me.  I requested Mana Holy Day to boost Light or Dark, depending on the time of the day.  I still think that's a good idea, but apparently, nobody else thinks that.
I'm not splitting that by day/night time though.
It would go a bit far against Kevin - I know I'm bashing a lot on him for being OP but making it so almost all endgame bosses deal extra damage during the only time Kevin is "operational" would make him a liability.

Not sure if that day should include non-elemental.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 15, 2021, 06:27:02 pm
I'm not splitting that by day/night time though.
It would go a bit far against Kevin - I know I'm bashing a lot on him for being OP but making it so almost all endgame bosses deal extra damage during the only time Kevin is "operational" would make him a liability.

Not sure if that day should include non-elemental.

Huh?  I don't think most endgame bosses will do any extra damage due to light/dark boost, because their powerful attacks are all non-elemental (which is why I don't want any day to boost the non-elemental attacks -- all godbeast unique skills, all final boss unique skills, etc).  I mean, I understand why they're non-elemental, since the devs didn't want those to be reflected.  Anyways, there are only 5 dark element skills -- Evil Gate, Dark Force, Crescent (no enemies have this skill), Black Rain, and Ghost Road.  I think only Gorva can use Ghost Road and Black Rain (other than Black Rabite using Black Rain on himself).
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Messianic on December 15, 2021, 10:30:08 pm
Jagan also uses Black Rain and Ghost Road.


So what is going on with melee counters? Has a balanced rate been decided on?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 16, 2021, 02:28:20 am
So what is going on with melee counters? Has a balanced rate been decided on?
Not yet.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 16, 2021, 04:14:03 am
Also, when I said light and dark boost, I was just talking about during Mana Holy Day, not everyday.  So both light and dark will get half a day each, out of 7 days.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 16, 2021, 12:39:00 pm
Also, when I said light and dark boost, I was just talking about during Mana Holy Day, not everyday.  So both light and dark will get half a day each, out of 7 days.
Imo that would only change if I would have to waste 6x the gold in an inn or not to get the mana day daytime; light is already by far the best element.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 16, 2021, 03:14:15 pm
Imo that would only change if I would have to waste 6x the gold in an inn or not to get the mana day daytime; light is already by far the best element.

I agree it's the best, but it only gets half a day (and impossible during the final battle).  And most characters don't have holy attacks.

I just want a moment of the week that's specifically for Wisp and another moment specifically for Shade.  All other elements got their day.  The two elements deserve their moments, even if only for half a day.  That's all.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 16, 2021, 04:25:49 pm
I agree it's the best, but it only gets half a day (and impossible during the final battle).  And most characters don't have holy attacks.

I just want a moment of the week that's specifically for Wisp and another moment specifically for Shade.  All other elements got their day.  The two elements deserve their moments, even if only for half a day.  That's all.
I get that but I feel like that makes certain classes (and rare chest items) way too strong.
Getting the claw that simulates saint saber from a rare chest already gives you like double damage because of the whole atk increase before def, giving that yet another +25% goes way too far (we're now talking 250%+ compared to not having that lucky drop); it would probably encourage very stupid strategies (save scumming for the drop or even less variety in class "viability")
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 16, 2021, 05:29:45 pm
I get that but I feel like that makes certain classes (and rare chest items) way too strong.
Getting the claw that simulates saint saber from a rare chest already gives you like double damage because of the whole atk increase before def, giving that yet another +25% goes way too far (we're now talking 250%+ compared to not having that lucky drop); it would probably encourage very stupid strategies (save scumming for the drop or even less variety in class "viability")

Wait, what?  Day boost gives +25%?  I thought it only gave fixed amount boost.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 16, 2021, 05:32:07 pm
Wait, what?  Day boost gives +25%?  I thought it only gave fixed amount boost.
+25% before defense
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 16, 2021, 07:38:00 pm
+25% before defense

Err... I don't suppose there's a way to move that 25% to the end of the formula, right?  If not that, then reduce the element weakness exploit from +50% to +33% before defense? (yes, this will weaken Angela, but given that it weakens sabers, I think it's worth it)

Still, I think half day boost is a good idea.  Sure, players can take adv of day boost on Mana Holy Day (if they have holy saber or attack), but at least we won't see Kevin double boost.  Plus, having these tiny little elements make the game more fun.  Think about Castlevania SOTN.  People loved it because of so many ways to "exploit" the hidden features to overpower enemies.  Besides, enemies having melee counter (however little chance) will raise the difficulty significantly.  I think a little helping hand to players will be nice.

The most concerning is Dark Lord at night on Mana Holy Day.  MT Lv3 tech after Dark Saber, and everyone's dead.  At least for vanilla (I decreased the power of enemy MT Lv3 techs in balance).
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on December 17, 2021, 08:52:03 am
That was me.  I requested Mana Holy Day to boost Light or Dark, depending on the time of the day.  I still think that's a good idea, but apparently, nobody else thinks that.

I have no problem with that.  I'm the same as you in that regards -- I just want Mana Holy Day to mean something.  Anything.  It's supposed to represent Sunday, the most grand day of the week.  So Mana Holy Day has to be grand.

Err... I don't suppose there's a way to move that 25% to the end of the formula, right?  If not that, then reduce the element weakness exploit from +50% to +33% before defense? (yes, this will weaken Angela, but given that it weakens sabers, I think it's worth it)

Hmm.  Saber is indeed strong, but with melee counter being a thing now, does it even matter if the melee is too strong?

Plus, having these tiny little elements make the game more fun.  Think about Castlevania SOTN.  People loved it because of so many ways to "exploit" the hidden features to overpower enemies.  Besides, enemies having melee counter (however little chance) will raise the difficulty significantly.  I think a little helping hand to players will be nice.

God, I love SOTN.  So many neat things in there.  I recently played SOTN on PSP, and found about Muramasa's secrets, and damn, it's awesome.  I had to leave my game on with a weight on my turbo button to to power it up, but still.  Awesome.

Not sure if that day should include non-elemental.

I was gonna say I want Mana Holy Day to boost the non elemental, but then after what hmsong said (apparently, all the signature enemy magic's non elemental), I changed my mind.  Please don't boost non element.  Thank you.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 17, 2021, 12:17:39 pm
Err... I don't suppose there's a way to move that 25% to the end of the formula, right?  If not that, then reduce the element weakness exploit from +50% to +33% before defense? (yes, this will weaken Angela, but given that it weakens sabers, I think it's worth it)
I think if I moved def there that'll cause a ton of additional problems.
If I remember right we're there before modifiers of crits and Lv1 techs, so those'd be nerfed as well.
Just consider Angela without power up: she'd NEVER be able to deal over 1 damage. (220ish atk? vs 220-245 def)


Still, I think half day boost is a good idea.  Sure, players can take adv of day boost on Mana Holy Day (if they have holy saber or attack), but at least we won't see Kevin double boost.
Sorry, but I'll not deal with day/night checks.


The most concerning is Dark Lord at night on Mana Holy Day.  MT Lv3 tech after Dark Saber, and everyone's dead.
Eh, that is only like ~400 atk after saber buff x2.5 x1.25 - def = 1250 - def so less than 999, you'll be fine.
I mean I suggested nerfing the L2/3 tech damage formula specifically for monsters but noone wanted that.


I was gonna say I want Mana Holy Day to boost the non elemental, but then after what hmsong said (apparently, all the signature enemy magic's non elemental), I changed my mind.  Please don't boost non element.
Debatable; they are probably only non-elemental because they don't matter vs players in vanilla so they didn't bother setting those flags.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 17, 2021, 10:18:23 pm
I mean I suggested nerfing the L2/3 tech damage formula specifically for monsters but noone wanted that.

I think that perhaps everyone misunderstood you.  At least I did.  I would like nerf, if it's for normal monsters and shadowzero, but not bosses.  Either that, or only nerf enemy and boss MT lv2/3 techs, but not ST techs.

Would that be possible?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on December 18, 2021, 02:25:30 am
Debatable; they are probably only non-elemental because they don't matter vs players in vanilla so they didn't bother setting those flags.

That too, but now that I replay the game again, I realize those damn Goblins in the beginning using the non-elemental Hand Axe, which do ~58 damage, when I only have ~110 HP and limited resource.  And it's pretty much guaranteed that those early ones will be during the Mana Holy Day.  Not cool.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 18, 2021, 06:26:34 am
I think that perhaps everyone misunderstood you.  At least I did.  I would like nerf, if it's for normal monsters and shadowzero, but not bosses.  Either that, or only nerf enemy and boss MT lv2/3 techs, but not ST techs.

Would that be possible?
Technically possible but why?
If melee can provoke counters Bill/Ben, Lugar and Darkshine Knight with unnerfed L3 techs are kinda unreasonable?


That too, but now that I replay the game again, I realize those damn Goblins in the beginning using the non-elemental Hand Axe, which do ~58 damage, when I only have ~110 HP and limited resource.  And it's pretty much guaranteed that those early ones will be during the Mana Holy Day.  Not cool.
spell damage scaling for enemies is a whole can of worms...
like the tier1 spells are just stat x6 plus some base multiply with a level based value up to 190% at lv40 with stat from 3 to 20
so the damage starts very scary (60 damage vs 110 hp, limited resources to heal) and then becomes barely relevant (200 damage vs 900 hp, hundreds of heal items in storage and likely also heal spell known).

well, changing that would go way beyond the intend of the fix patch
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Mr X on December 18, 2021, 08:06:02 am
In my opinion, I think people might be asking too much out of a patch intending only the fixes of the original game, at that point just play the Sin of Mana mod or make a new SD3 mod for intentions more than that

Just my two cents
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on December 18, 2021, 08:15:18 am
spell damage scaling for enemies is a whole can of worms...
like the tier1 spells are just stat x6 plus some base multiply with a level based value up to 190% at lv40 with stat from 3 to 20
so the damage starts very scary (60 damage vs 110 hp, limited resources to heal) and then becomes barely relevant (200 damage vs 900 hp, hundreds of heal items in storage and likely also heal spell known).

well, changing that would go way beyond the intend of the fix patch

Oh, I'm not asking you to change the damage scaling for enemies.  I'm simply asking you to not give Mana Holy Day the boost to non element.  That's all.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 18, 2021, 11:06:37 am
In my opinion, I think people might be asking too much out of a patch intending only the fixes of the original game, at that point just play the Sin of Mana mod or make a new SD3 mod for intentions more than that
well, this is a topic for several SD3 mods not just the bugfix one, so brainstorming such changes is valid.

but as for me - I just wait for a suggestion or random idea of how to scale the "random" counter triggers against luck.
like in my thrown out idea of 15x or 40x LUCK_ADJUST what should LUCK_ADJUST be?


Oh, I'm not asking you to change the damage scaling for enemies.  I'm simply asking you to not give Mana Holy Day the boost to non element.  That's all.
Actually, that is even preferable to me since that should just be changing one date point from 00 into an FF, otherwise I'd have to change the day logic itself.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 18, 2021, 05:05:20 pm
Technically possible but why?
If melee can provoke counters Bill/Ben, Lugar and Darkshine Knight with unnerfed L3 techs are kinda unreasonable?

Well, Lugar and Darkshine Knight's MT techs are unreasonable, because currently, they can combo.  I know you're still brainstorming about the combo issue, so this is just one way resolve that issue, although it depends on how much they are nerfed.

And Shadowzero... Those are just so so deadly.  Unreasonably deadly.  They need to be nerfed, I feel.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 18, 2021, 07:06:44 pm
Well, Lugar and Darkshine Knight's MT techs are unreasonable, because currently, they can combo.  I know you're still brainstorming about the combo issue, so this is just one way resolve that issue, although it depends on how much they are nerfed.
It would also affect the MT techs they can cast whenever they feel like it, so those two issues aren't 100% related.

I'm taking ideas for that; could e.g. just reduce the atk to 75% its usual value.
E.g. vanilla is for 300 atk:
300 x2.5 - def = 750 - def, so at least 450
changed:
300 x0.75 x2.5 - def = 562 - def, so 262 at max def
or maybe only 7/8 penalty
300 x7/8 x2.5 - def = 655 - def, so 355 at max def


And Shadowzero... Those are just so so deadly.  Unreasonably deadly.  They need to be nerfed, I feel.
They copy 1:1 the stats of whoever they copy. The only thing they don't copy is spells known.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 18, 2021, 09:30:19 pm
It would also affect the MT techs they can cast whenever they feel like it, so those two issues aren't 100% related.

Oh, right.  Dang it.  I guess resolving the combo issue by simply weakening the MT tech has unwanted side effect.  Argh.

I'm taking ideas for that; could e.g. just reduce the atk to 75% its usual value.
E.g. vanilla is for 300 atk:
300 x2.5 - def = 750 - def, so at least 450
changed:
300 x0.75 x2.5 - def = 562 - def, so 262 at max def
or maybe only 7/8 penalty
300 x7/8 x2.5 - def = 655 - def, so 355 at max def

How much power is weakened for MT spells, relative to the ST spells?  is it 75%?  7/8?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 19, 2021, 04:21:59 am
How much power is weakened for MT spells, relative to the ST spells?  is it 75%?  7/8?
ST spells and always-MT spells (ancient, summons, ...) get +25%; basically anything that has the one/all option and is all-casted doesn't get the bonus.

Could instead also try subtracting 2x target's AGL from enemy L2/3 techs before the multiplier, could help making that stat slightly more useful.


because their powerful attacks are all non-elemental (which is why I don't want any day to boost the non-elemental attacks -- all godbeast unique skills, all final boss unique skills, etc).
thinking about it - isn't that then also a bug?
I mean you specifically have the option for light Duran to adjust his shield to a given boss and then they "don't work" because what looks like a fire attack is non-elemental.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 19, 2021, 05:02:20 am
ST spells and always-MT spells (ancient, summons, ...) get +25%; basically anything that has the one/all option and is all-casted doesn't get the bonus.

Could instead also try subtracting 2x target's AGL from enemy L2/3 techs before the multiplier, could help making that stat slightly more useful.

Interesting.  It could indeed.  I'm sure there are numerous case-in-points, but that'll save 30~44 HP by the end.  Seems a bit small though, so maybe x3 or x4 AGL? (typically, by the final dungeon, when enemies use Lv3 techs, and they usually do 300 damage or something.  Of course, you're only referring to the enemy MT techs, right?

thinking about it - isn't that then also a bug?
I mean you specifically have the option for light Duran to adjust his shield to a given boss and then they "don't work" because what looks like a fire attack is non-elemental.

True, but if they're given some kind of element property, then Matango Oil will become so powerful, because Matango Oil reflects anything with elements.  It's basically a repeat of Koren fight.  And unlike Secret of Mana, the reflected damage ignores the caster's elemental defense (ex: if Dangaard uses Thunderbolt, and I have Matango Oil on myself, then Dangaard takes damage, instead of absorbing the Thunderbolt damage).
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 19, 2021, 05:12:18 am
Interesting.  It could indeed.  I'm sure there are numerous case-in-points, but that'll save 30~44 HP by the end.  Seems a bit small though, so maybe x3 or x4 AGL? (typically, by the final dungeon, when enemies use Lv3 techs, and they usually do 300 damage or something.  Of course, you're only referring to the enemy MT techs, right?
2x before multiplier
so 60~88 for L2 techs or 75~99 for L3 techs

yes, only if the target is a player unit
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 19, 2021, 05:27:24 am
2x before multiplier
so 60~88 for L2 techs or 75~99 for L3 techs

yes, only if the target is a player unit

Oh.  That makes sense.  It's not gonna save players from combo, but it's definitely something.  Maybe that and reduced counter rate (half?) will be enough to survive the fight? (unless RNG hates you).
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 19, 2021, 05:53:52 am
Oh.  That makes sense.  It's not gonna save players from combo, but it's definitely something.  Maybe that and reduced counter rate (half?) will be enough to survive the fight? (unless RNG hates you).
RNG will always hate you; just like nothing stops it currently from throwing 2-3 nightblades at you that immediatly split image slice you when you enter the room.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 19, 2021, 05:58:11 am
RNG will always hate you; just like nothing stops it currently from throwing 2-3 nightblades at you that immediatly split image slice you when you enter the room.

True that.  But reducing the chance of it venting its hatred on you is always good.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Mr X on December 19, 2021, 06:40:36 am
Is there any reason why the defense cap wont go past 300 with max vit and final armors? It feels they are kinda useless when you can reach the 300 defense cap with pedan armor + vit
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 19, 2021, 06:45:40 am
Is there any reason why the defense cap wont go past 300 with max vit and final armors? It feels they are kinda useless when you can reach the 300 defense cap with pedan armor + vit

Probably because if it goes past 300 normally, most normal enemies' melee attacks won't do anything other than 1.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 19, 2021, 06:47:44 am
Is there any reason why the defense cap wont go past 300 with max vit and final armors? It feels they are kinda useless when you can reach the 300 defense cap with pedan armor + vit
that's just the cap they were set to.
as for "why?", no idea. probably would've made Kevin too OP for square's tastes.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Mr X on December 19, 2021, 01:37:33 pm
that's just the cap they were set to.
as for "why?", no idea. probably would've made Kevin too OP for square's tastes.

Fair enough, don't want Kevin to have monstrous defense on top of his already monstrous strength, lol.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 19, 2021, 02:39:21 pm
Fair enough, don't want Kevin to have monstrous defense on top of his already monstrous strength, lol.
Writing it down it begs the question:
this it make him less OP (no imba defense) or more OP (just the VIT from class change alone should be enough to cap def)
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on December 19, 2021, 06:21:31 pm
Actually, that is even preferable to me since that should just be changing one date point from 00 into an FF, otherwise I'd have to change the day logic itself.

Awesome.  Thanks.

They copy 1:1 the stats of whoever they copy. The only thing they don't copy is spells known.
RNG will always hate you.

Argh!  Damn Shadowzeroes!  RNG (G stands for God) always screws with me.  I hate those little pukes.

Writing it down it begs the question:
this it make him less OP (no imba defense) or more OP (just the VIT from class change alone should be enough to cap def)

Despite Kevin's high VIT, he doesn't seem to get a very high DEF stat.  Only like 2 points, relative to Angela or something.  I'm not sure what's going on, but I'm guessing Kevin's armor sucks.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 20, 2021, 09:20:17 am
Better Starting Stat and Item Shop updated.



@praetarius5018

I was able to make some shop items appear only after the 1st class up (7F -> 7E), but is there a way to make some items appear after the 2nd class up?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 20, 2021, 12:26:24 pm
I was able to make some shop items appear only after the 1st class up (7F -> 7E), but is there a way to make some items appear after the 2nd class up?
I only have 1A - light only, 64 - dark only but not 2nd class specifics.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 20, 2021, 06:45:53 pm
I only have 1A - light only, 64 - dark only but not 2nd class specifics.

Yeah.  1A+64=7E.  Oh well.  Worth a shot.

Edit:  Okay, as I was writing, I think I figured it out, looking at the pattern (untested).  01=base, 02=L, 04=D, 08=LL, 10=LD, 20=DL, 40=DD.  You add those up, and you get 7F.  L+LL+LD=1A, and D+DL+DD=64.  And that means 2nd class (LL+LD+DL+DD) is 78.  Huh.  I guess sometimes, when you write things out, you figure things out.  Thanks.

Not much I can do with that knowledge, sadly, because 2nd class change comes so late in vanilla.  But you might be able to do something for your Sin of Mana (unless you've already done so).

With that knowledge, you might be able to find the ??? Seed item error (current, LL and LD results in D class items).  I don't even know which bank has that though, so it's pretty hopeless for me... Any idea which bank has that info?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on December 21, 2021, 12:23:08 am
With that knowledge, you might be able to find the ??? Seed item error (current, LL and LD results in D class items).  I don't even know which bank has that though, so it's pretty hopeless for me... Any idea which bank has that info?

I sincerely hope one of you fix that thing.  It really throws off the balance for Carlie (Sage Carlie is so powerful, because she has access to Black Curse).

December 24, 2021, 08:51:32 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Not much I can do with that knowledge, sadly, because 2nd class change comes so late in vanilla.  But you might be able to do something for your Sin of Mana (unless you've already done so).

I got an idea.  Put one of the throw items in the original black market (Pumpkin Bomb enables players to access the tree element attack), and move the three seeds into the secret shop 1.  And make the secret shop available after the mana stones break.  But only enable the non-seed items after the 2nd class change.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Messianic on December 24, 2021, 04:08:56 pm
Is it possible to disable regular enemy random tech altogether and make them ONLY melee counter you?

Of course if this would also apply to Bill/Ben and Luger that would be a problem...
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 25, 2021, 03:14:17 am
I got an idea.  Put one of the throw items in the original black market (Pumpkin Bomb enables players to access the tree element attack), and move the three seeds into the secret shop 1.  And make the secret shop available after the mana stones break.  But only enable the non-seed items after the 2nd class change.

First, thanks for your input.  I always enjoy hearing other people's ideas.

Second, while I like the idea of putting a throwing item in the black market (not sure about Pumpkin Bomb, since that's the most powerful throwing item), but doing so would get rid of the "item that gets enabled after the first class change".  And I want something in the black market to be enabled after the 1st class change.  I don't mind putting the seeds in the 1st secret shop though, and then enabling other items after the 2nd class change.  Hmm.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 25, 2021, 05:27:34 am
With that knowledge, you might be able to find the ??? Seed item error (current, LL and LD results in D class items).  I don't even know which bank has that though, so it's pretty hopeless for me... Any idea which bank has that info?
No idea, sorry.

Is it possible to disable regular enemy random tech altogether and make them ONLY melee counter you?

Of course if this would also apply to Bill/Ben and Luger that would be a problem...
Theoretically yes but that would require editing the AIs of all affected enemies directly.
And the AI for "random" enemies (anything that is roughly player sized) is a mess I want to avoid as much as I can.

Also even if, I don't see the benefit in this; it would make mobs both less dangerous (never get a tech when you enter a room) and more dangerous (ALWAYS get a tech to the face before you kill the mob; hit 2 mobs at the same time = game over)
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on December 25, 2021, 07:39:26 am
Second, while I like the idea of putting a throwing item in the black market (not sure about Pumpkin Bomb, since that's the most powerful throwing item), but doing so would get rid of the "item that gets enabled after the first class change".  And I want something in the black market to be enabled after the 1st class change.  I don't mind putting the seeds in the 1st secret shop though, and then enabling other items after the 2nd class change.  Hmm.

Oh, right.  Well, maybe you can leave one of the special seeds that gets enabled after the first class change.


Theoretically yes but that would require editing the AIs of all affected enemies directly.
And the AI for "random" enemies (anything that is roughly player sized) is a mess I want to avoid as much as I can.

Also even if, I don't see the benefit in this; it would make mobs both less dangerous (never get a tech when you enter a room) and more dangerous (ALWAYS get a tech to the face before you kill the mob; hit 2 mobs at the same time = game over)

I actually prefer the current version, where it is entirely up to RNG.  I do hope that the counter rate is either decreased or is limited to one (aggro meter or some sort).
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 25, 2021, 07:53:53 am
I actually prefer the current version, where it is entirely up to RNG.  I do hope that the counter rate is either decreased or is limited to one (aggro meter or some sort).
That is something I want to do but I'm stuck at the "math part" (creative blackout if you will);
melee strike would add 15 x LUCK_ADJUST to aggro
spells and L2/3 techs would add 40 x LUCK_ADJUST
if the monster uses a spell or L2/3 tech it loses 10 aggro.
Threshold could be 80 for regular monster, 200 for bosses.
I'm just drawing a total blank on what LUCK_ADJUST should exactly be.
I kinda want it to be 100%+ (or even 150%) if you have absolutely no luck stat (15) increase at lv45+ - so a spell plus a couple random hits gets you vanilla behaviour for random mobs -
and like ~20% at max luck (22)
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on December 25, 2021, 08:29:59 am
That is something I want to do but I'm stuck at the "math part" (creative blackout if you will);
melee strike would add 15 x LUCK_ADJUST to aggro
spells and L2/3 techs would add 40 x LUCK_ADJUST
if the monster uses a spell or L2/3 tech it loses 10 aggro.
Threshold could be 80 for regular monster, 200 for bosses.
I'm just drawing a total blank on what LUCK_ADJUST should exactly be.
I kinda want it to be 100%+ (or even 150%) if you have absolutely no luck stat (15) increase at lv45+ - so a spell plus a couple random hits gets you vanilla behaviour for random mobs -
and like ~20% at max luck (22)

Perhaps I'm overthinking, but having "spells and L2/3 techs would add 40 x LUCK_ADJUST" would just encourage people to use Lv1 techs.  I think spell/tech should have the same chance as melee (but not 0) -- spell/tech tends to be more powerful than melee, thus encouraging people to use spells more.

Also, if threshold for regular monster is 80 and boss is 200, does that mean that normal monsters would counter more frequently than the bosses?

Also, don't some characters' luck max out at 15?  And you want their attacks to have 100+% counter rate?  Uhh.  Perhaps that's a bit much?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 25, 2021, 08:53:40 am
Perhaps I'm overthinking, but having "spells and L2/3 techs would add 40 x LUCK_ADJUST" would just encourage people to use Lv1 techs.  I think spell/tech should have the same chance as melee (but not 0) -- spell/tech tends to be more powerful than melee, thus encouraging people to use spells more.
That wouldn't work too well.
Spells and L2/3 techs do deal more damage per hit.
And I can't differentiate between regular melee hits and L1 tech hits there.


Also, if threshold for regular monster is 80 and boss is 200, does that mean that normal monsters would counter more frequently than the bosses?
They also die a lot quicker. So like 2-3 spells to trigger a reaction with "neutral" luck (no idea what value that would be) should mean 1 at most.


Also, don't some characters' luck max out at 15?
That's one of the issues.
I want there to some reward for choosing to invest in luck but not give that reward for free just for being Hawk.
Some max at 15~17, Hawk has a minimum of 17 after 2nd class change.
He'd combine basically having 2nd highest dps with lowest risk generation (plus his usual slew of support spells).

I kinda need to scale the whole thing by something like your current luck vs target's level/luck/boss status?
Otherwise there's no effect from putting 1 point into it as Duran but class changing as Hawk breaks the mechanic.


And you want their attacks to have 100+% counter rate?  Uhh.  Perhaps that's a bit much?
Not 100% counter rate by full aggro build up; with "worst" luck you get the full +15/+40 per hit instead of less.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 25, 2021, 07:42:27 pm
That is something I want to do but I'm stuck at the "math part" (creative blackout if you will);
melee strike would add 15 x LUCK_ADJUST to aggro
spells and L2/3 techs would add 40 x LUCK_ADJUST
if the monster uses a spell or L2/3 tech it loses 10 aggro.
Threshold could be 80 for regular monster, 200 for bosses.
I'm just drawing a total blank on what LUCK_ADJUST should exactly be.
I kinda want it to be 100%+ (or even 150%) if you have absolutely no luck stat (15) increase at lv45+ - so a spell plus a couple random hits gets you vanilla behaviour for random mobs -
and like ~20% at max luck (22)

Wow.  That's some interesting system.  I'm not entirely sure how Luck Adjust works though, but I'm guessing it's something along the line of [Enemy Level / {Your Luck x 10}] -- not this particular formula, but nevertheless the higher your own luck is, the less likely you'll be countered.

As soul_knight said though, I do wish for a system that encourages players to use more spells and Lv2/3 techs.  Spells/techs having high aggro discourages that.  Spells and techs do more damage, but they also have restrictions, like the cast time and tech meter.  Well, I'm sure there are flaws there too...

Why do monsters only lose 10 aggro when they use spells/techs?  Shouldn't the aggro gauge be emptied?  I feel like this is just another "spell combo" waiting to happen, esp the bosses.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 26, 2021, 05:43:46 am
I'm not entirely sure how Luck Adjust works though
That is exactly what I'm trying to figure out.


As soul_knight said though, I do wish for a system that encourages players to use more spells and Lv2/3 techs.  Spells/techs having high aggro discourages that.  Spells and techs do more damage, but they also have restrictions, like the cast time and tech meter.  Well, I'm sure there are flaws there too...
My logic behind that is that with buffs spells deal 2-3x the damage of normal/L1 techs at best. So 2.5x ish aggro sounds fine to me.


Why do monsters only lose 10 aggro when they use spells/techs?  Shouldn't the aggro gauge be emptied?
If it was emptied counters would effectively "never" happen.
There are not only obvious spells being used like evil gate and such but also stealthy ones, like zable fahr's fire breath (not screen freezing), that is a disguised gremlin spell.

Please think about it; with 0 luck stat you'd need to inflict 5(!) spell/tech hits BEFORE the enemy uses 1 - that will never happen.


I feel like this is just another "spell combo" waiting to happen, esp the bosses.
How so?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 26, 2021, 06:10:50 am
If it was emptied counters would effectively "never" happen.
There are not only obvious spells being used like evil gate and such but also stealthy ones, like zable fahr's fire breath (not screen freezing), that is a disguised gremlin spell.

Wait wait, enemies like Zable Fahr don't have counter in the first place, right?  I thought counters are for regular enemies and small bosses.  Are you putting counters on big bosses that don't normally have counters?  I thought you were putting counters only to regular enemies and small bosses, because they don't randomly use skills, unless it's right at the start of the battle (ex: Poron, Nightblade, Bill/Ben) and/or HP threshold (ex: Bill/Ben, Lugar, Koren, BR).

Please think about it; with 0 luck stat you'd need to inflict 5(!) spell/tech hits BEFORE the enemy uses 1 - that will never happen.

Wait, what?  How do you get 5 spell/techs before enemy uses 1 counter?  Assuming the threshold for normal mon is 80, and the smallest Luck stat is 2 (Duran, Kevin), so... wait, I'm lost.

How so?

If enemy gets its aggro to 80, but while it's casting, if you damage it a bit, then aggro may be raised to 90, in which case, after the magic, it'll be reduced to 80, and since it's still 80, it'll use spell again -- x2 combo.  And against the bosses, if it's 200, but you do enough damage to make it 220, then that's x3 combo.  Etc etc.  I think that's way too anti-Kevin.

Honestly, I think counters should only happen for bosses, and not regular enemies -- regular enemies are already pretty tough even without the counters, because of their random hp threshold moves (ex: Bloody Wolf x2 = you die).  Not sure if anyone else would agree with me though.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 26, 2021, 06:43:53 am
Wait wait, enemies like Zable Fahr don't have counter in the first place, right?  I thought counters are for regular enemies and small bosses.  Are you putting counters on big bosses that don't normally have counters?  I thought you were putting counters only to regular enemies and small bosses, because they don't randomly use skills, unless it's right at the start of the battle (ex: Poron, Nightblade, Bill/Ben) and/or HP threshold (ex: Bill/Ben, Lugar, Koren, BR).
ZF was just the first example I thought of where a non-time freezing move is actually a spell in disguise in contrast to just a normal attack or a L1 tech.


Wait, what?  How do you get 5 spell/techs before enemy uses 1 counter?  Assuming the threshold for normal mon is 80, and the smallest Luck stat is 2 (Duran, Kevin), so... wait, I'm lost.
Exactly, you CAN'T for bosses.
You'd have to hit them with 5 spells before they reset the aggro totally with your suggestion which is flat out impossible.


If enemy gets its aggro to 80, but while it's casting, if you damage it a bit, then aggro may be raised to 90, in which case, after the magic, it'll be reduced to 80, and since it's still 80, it'll use spell again -- x2 combo.  And against the bosses, if it's 200, but you do enough damage to make it 220, then that's x3 combo.  Etc etc.  I think that's way too anti-Kevin.
I've no idea what you're thinking here.
When the aggro meter reaches the threshold and (tries to) trigger a counter it would then reset to 0.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 26, 2021, 06:49:48 am
I've no idea what you're thinking here.
When the aggro meter reaches the threshold and (tries to) trigger a counter it would then reset to 0.

I think I misunderstood you.  I thought when you said, "if the monster uses a spell or L2/3 tech it loses 10 aggro", I thought you meant that it's "80-10", which is 70, which is only 10 away from triggering a counter.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 26, 2021, 08:02:27 am
I think I misunderstood you.  I thought when you said, "if the monster uses a spell or L2/3 tech it loses 10 aggro", I thought you meant that it's "80-10", which is 70, which is only 10 away from triggering a counter.
example with "0" luck since I've no idea what the LUCK_ADJUST should be really
base 0
hit monster with spell: +40, so 40
it hits you with a spell: -10, so 30
hit monster with spell: +40, so 70
hit monster with spell: +40, so 110 which is above 80, so trigger counter, reset down to 0
it hits you with a spell: -10, stays at 0
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 26, 2021, 08:06:40 am
example with "0" luck since I've no idea what the LUCK_ADJUST should be really
base 0
hit monster with spell: +40, so 40
it hits you with a spell: -10, so 30
hit monster with spell: +40, so 70
hit monster with spell: +40, so 110 which is above 80, so trigger counter, reset down to 0
it hits you with a spell: -10, stays at 0

Ohh.  I see.  Makes sense.  When you say, "it hits you with a spell", does that include monster's HP threshold spell/tech?  Because if it doesn't, then I don't think monsters can actually cast spells, except in the beginning, where they have 0 aggro anyways.  And there "can" be a spell combo, if a counter and hp threshold spell combos each other, but I think that's an acceptable combo.  Not sure about regular monsters having that though...
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 26, 2021, 03:17:55 pm
Ohh.  I see.  Makes sense.  When you say, "it hits you with a spell", does that include monster's HP threshold spell/tech?  Because if it doesn't, then I don't think monsters can actually cast spells, except in the beginning, where they have 0 aggro anyways.  And there "can" be a spell combo, if a counter and hp threshold spell combos each other, but I think that's an acceptable combo.  Not sure about regular monsters having that though...
if I include that then in the damage formula, so doesn't matter where the spell comes from.

the aggro depletion is mostly interesting for bosses.

and the combo would happen anyway with regular randomness.
just not an aggro reaction with itself (unless you throw a lot of quick low luck hits while the game has its usual lag issues)
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 26, 2021, 08:36:11 pm
if I include that then in the damage formula, so doesn't matter where the spell comes from.

the aggro depletion is mostly interesting for bosses.

and the combo would happen anyway with regular randomness.
just not an aggro reaction with itself (unless you throw a lot of quick low luck hits while the game has its usual lag issues)

I see.  I think +15 aggro for melee is a bit big (not counting luck adjust), but I'll have to try it out.  I'm more worried against a group of the regular enemies though, due to their low aggro threshold.  Bug again, I'll have to try it out.  I can see why you'd have hard time with Luck Adjust.  I tried something like, [Enemy Level - (Luck * 3)], but oh boy, luck is affecting things a lot -- you with 15 Luck, the Lv50 enemies are gonna kick your ass, because it'll just add +5 to melee.  And the players will be too busy raising their STR, VIT, and INT throughout the entire game, so they won't even have room to raise their luck until Lv50 or so.  Yikes.

I do think that at early parts of the game (beginning ~ jewel eater) should give the players a break, and no enemies should counter -- you have so little resource, and money is an issue at that point.  Even the healing item is limited to only round drop x9 per battle.

I'd appreciate it if you can make it compatible with No Skill Counter -- that way, players can choose to be only countered by melee and not magic.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on December 27, 2021, 09:51:08 pm
@praetarius5018

Hey.  I saw your SD3 run video on youtube using TAS.  Do you run that TAS channel?  You played the J version, so I'm guessing you can read Japanese and stuff.  I'm quite jelly about that.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 28, 2021, 02:32:32 am
so I'm guessing you can read Japanese and stuff.
I wish...
there's nothing complicated about SD3 - items have their icons, spells shouldn't be used, dialog options are always in the same place. And if something comes up during making a TAS - rewind, temporarely translate the ROM, then you know what's up and then undo that.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on December 28, 2021, 07:51:12 am
I wish...
there's nothing complicated about SD3 - items have their icons, spells shouldn't be used, dialog options are always in the same place. And if something comes up during making a TAS - rewind, temporarely translate the ROM, then you know what's up and then undo that.

Oh.  In that case, why intentionally use the J version, instead of the fan translated version, or Trials of Mana?  Or does TAS not work with anything other than J version?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 28, 2021, 01:46:10 pm
Oh.  In that case, why intentionally use the J version, instead of the fan translated version, or Trials of Mana?  Or does TAS not work with anything other than J version?
At that time there was no official translation and just random hacks aren't allowed if you want to TAS the original game.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on December 28, 2021, 05:32:44 pm
At that time there was no official translation and just random hacks aren't allowed if you want to TAS the original game.

The video is from a week ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r70RLve6mCU

I'm guessing the guy who's in charge of the channel is using your video without your permission.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on December 28, 2021, 05:58:07 pm
The video is from a week ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r70RLve6mCU

I'm guessing the guy who's in charge of the channel is using your video without your permission.
nah, is ok.
also: "originally published on 2011-12-22", typical youtube stuff
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on December 28, 2021, 08:02:07 pm
nah, is ok.
also: "originally published on 2011-12-22", typical youtube stuff

Whoops.  Didn't see that.  My bad.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 29, 2021, 02:08:29 am
nah, is ok.
also: "originally published on 2011-12-22", typical youtube stuff

Wow.  A literal decade.  Posted on exact same date a decade later.  Probably intended.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Goros Lair on December 29, 2021, 12:17:18 pm
Hello guys! I've seen you've been explaining about the three player patch. Well, the original place for It is here at Romhacking, the author is named Parlance and recently he has explained that he's tried to fix the bugs, but he couldn't. Under these conditions, why don't you guys work together for fixing that? I believe It would be one of the most wanted hacks currently.

Parlance's hack - https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/179/

Parlance's comments - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pejV4vCF6TM
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: nosynose on December 29, 2021, 09:43:43 pm
Hi all.
Opponent's counter is definitely problematic in SD3. However, I know nothing about SD3 hacking and romhacking in general. So I'll just throw my random, probably silly suggestions:
-Maybe LUCK could be used to lower the opponent's counter chance? The higher the character's LUCK, the lower the opponent's eventual chance to counter?
-But random counter seems problematic too from what I've read here. So maybe throw another dice roll? A chance to have a chance of counter?

@hmsong
Hey, glad to see this SD3 thread.
I've yet to finish my 5th playthrough, though, if you still remember those. Gosh, I think I spent more time to apply patches than to actually play these games.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 30, 2021, 06:26:44 am
Hi all.
Opponent's counter is definitely problematic in SD3. However, I know nothing about SD3 hacking and romhacking in general. So I'll just throw my random, probably silly suggestions:
-Maybe LUCK could be used to lower the opponent's counter chance? The higher the character's LUCK, the lower the opponent's eventual chance to counter?
-But random counter seems problematic too from what I've read here. So maybe throw another dice roll? A chance to have a chance of counter?

You probably haven't been following this thread for a while.  Praetarius5018 incorporated Luck stats into the counter for a while now.  But due to flaws here and there about the counters, he's working on something new with counters that will hopefully satisfy many more people.  Numerous people here (including myself) have been pitching ideas about that.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: MD_Prometh on December 30, 2021, 07:59:38 am
Has anyone attempted a hack that fixes the text font?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 30, 2021, 05:50:17 pm
Has anyone attempted a hack that fixes the text font?

If I knew how to mess with the fonts, I would fix the text errors first (spelling, names, etc).  If you know how to do any of that, I'd appreciate some help.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: MD_Prometh on December 30, 2021, 07:41:51 pm
If I knew how to mess with the fonts, I would fix the text errors first (spelling, names, etc).  If you know how to do any of that, I'd appreciate some help.

The official translation has text errors? Had no idea
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on December 30, 2021, 09:16:47 pm
The official translation has text errors? Had no idea

For fan translation, text errors.  For official, some of the names that I just didn't like.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: nosynose on December 31, 2021, 09:58:15 pm
You probably haven't been following this thread for a while.  Praetarius5018 incorporated Luck stats into the counter for a while now.  But due to flaws here and there about the counters, he's working on something new with counters that will hopefully satisfy many more people.  Numerous people here (including myself) have been pitching ideas about that.
I did follow this thread, though I don't understand the technical details. Praetarius5018 stated that even 1% counter chance still likely result on 3 counters in a row. My conclusion from it is that the RNG is kinda broken/faulty. If that RNG is unfixable, then another dice roll may help to effectively reduce the percentage below %1 chance, to compensate for the RNG deficiency.
When the bad RNG is taken care of, LUCK and counter interaction could now be simplified. Say counter will default to 25% chance (with proper RNG). Then one point of LUCK equals -1 % counter chance, so 20 points of LUCK equals -20 % counter chance, ie. 5% counter chance, which seems reasonable.
Just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on January 01, 2022, 04:40:18 am
I did follow this thread, though I don't understand the technical details. Praetarius5018 stated that even 1% counter chance still likely result on 3 counters in a row. My conclusion from it is that the RNG is kinda broken/faulty. If that RNG is unfixable, then another dice roll may help to effectively reduce the percentage below %1 chance, to compensate for the RNG deficiency.
That sounds more like a value hmsong would whine about; I mean I made it currently so that with max luck you can trigger counters at 5.6% with melee strikes.

The issue is that RNG can just screw you over no matter the percentage.
Having the enemy decide to cast a spell by themselves and then triggering 2 counters at that time can happen with any percentage. If everyone had Hawk's luck it would still happen 0.3% of the time with 2 consecutive hits; with worse luck and more hits flying around 2 reactions would easily happen 10% of the time or so (too many unknowns to math that out)
That's why I'm thinking about making it an "aggro meter" instead; that way you get at worst the regular cast + 1 counter.

But atm I'm not sure which values/formula I should use for that; if it is too low, regular enemies will never get that counter.


When the bad RNG is taken care of, LUCK and counter interaction could now be simplified. Say counter will default to 25% chance (with proper RNG). Then one point of LUCK equals -1 % counter chance, so 20 points of LUCK equals -20 % counter chance, ie. 5% counter chance, which seems reasonable.
Just my 2 cents.
No, that is unreasonable.
Counter AI exists already at low levels when you have 2~6 luck; 23% chance per hit to get killed is too much.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: nosynose on January 01, 2022, 07:33:51 am
That's why I'm thinking about making it an "aggro meter" instead; that way you get at worst the regular cast + 1 counter.

But atm I'm not sure which values/formula I should use for that; if it is too low, regular enemies will never get that counter.
Okay then, an idea on top of the aggro meter. Don't set it too low for the sake of regular enemies, but LUCK is now a direct percentage that the character's hits will reduce the opponent's running aggro meter by 1 point or a couple points (or even reset it), which in effect delays the counter execution. So 10 points of LUCK means 10% chance for the hits to lower the aggro meter.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on January 01, 2022, 02:32:41 pm
Okay then, an idea on top of the aggro meter. Don't set it too low for the sake of regular enemies, but LUCK is now a direct percentage that the character's hits will reduce the opponent's running aggro meter by 1 point or a couple points (or even reset it), which in effect delays the counter execution. So 10 points of LUCK means 10% chance for the hits to lower the aggro meter.
Sounds counterproductive; if there was a aggro meter system it should imo be mostly predictable.
RNG chance to randomly reset is wouldn't be.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: nosynose on January 02, 2022, 05:08:25 am
Sounds counterproductive; if there was a aggro meter system it should imo be mostly predictable.
RNG chance to randomly reset is wouldn't be.
Oh, right, I forgot that such aggro meter is probably raised by the hits. If full reset is deemed too unpredictable, then just -1 point should still give a little variability in battle. Or even better, zero point. Whenever it being triggered, no aggro point will be added to the aggro meter.

10 points of LUCK = 10% of all hits don't increase the aggro meter, but the rest of them, 90%, do increase it.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Mr X on January 02, 2022, 05:33:37 am
I am not sure why Level 3 techs/spells freeze the game in the bug fix even more frequently than in Sin of Mana, I am only at the second Bill and Ben fight and already the third time that happened (once vs Machine Golems 2, twice in the second Bill and Ben fight), while in an entire Sin of Mana run I had it happened only once.

Other patches I applied - hmsong exp patch

I am using a translated rom, but I still downloaded one of those programs to remove the header before applying the patches to make sure.

Edit: probably would be wiser to test it with a japanese rom as it's suggested, good luck navigating the item storage list unless you know japanese  :P

January 03, 2022, 11:49:37 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Another thing I noticed is Level 2/3 techs doing 1 damage when using a saber spell.

Not that I mind, when hitting for weakness I still use level 1 techs anyway

Another edit: same problem with the jap rom screen freezing when playing the bugfix version, that's especially fun when that happens on the black rabite for the third time
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on January 04, 2022, 08:36:54 am
@Kartal

You sent me a personal message, but apparently, you are blocking personal message from me, so I'm unable to reply to you.  I'm not sure why/how that's happening, but I assume you want answers to your questions, so unblock me.  I'll reply once you do so.

Maybe your inbox is full.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on January 04, 2022, 12:08:11 pm
I am not sure why Level 3 techs/spells freeze the game in the bug fix even more frequently than in Sin of Mana, I am only at the second Bill and Ben fight and already the third time that happened (once vs Machine Golems 2, twice in the second Bill and Ben fight), while in an entire Sin of Mana run I had it happened only once.
Depends; how often do you reload in either version?
Knowing the stuff I did I take in sin you reloaded much more often which resets the mem leak or whatever the issue behind this is.


Another thing I noticed is Level 2/3 techs doing 1 damage when using a saber spell.
Which saber on which monster?
If they are immune to the element it returns 1 damage.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Mr X on January 05, 2022, 05:15:18 am
Depends; how often do you reload in either version?
Knowing the stuff I did I take in sin you reloaded much more often which resets the mem leak or whatever the issue behind this is.

I did close the game a couple of times abd reopened it, or reloaded the game from the snes9x menu as one of the ready files.

So to prevent this from happening do you suggest to close the game and then open it manually? Or if it happens will patching another rom fix the issue also till it occurs again?

Quote
Which saber on which monster?
If they are immune to the element it returns 1 damage.
I was using Thunder Saber when fighting Mispolm, used a level 2 tech resulting in 1 damage, even tho he is weak to Air

But besides that makes sense why level 2/3 tech did 1 damage on Dolan with Moon Saber, or Dragon Emperor after he casted flare, my moon saber covered party did 1 damage with level 2/3 techs until I applied anti-magic
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on January 05, 2022, 06:27:20 am
I did close the game a couple of times abd reopened it, or reloaded the game from the snes9x menu as one of the ready files.

So to prevent this from happening do you suggest to close the game and then open it manually? Or if it happens will patching another rom fix the issue also till it occurs again?
I meant reloading via ingame save/load menu.


I was using Thunder Saber when fighting Mispolm, used a level 2 tech resulting in 1 damage, even tho he is weak to Air

But besides that makes sense why level 2/3 tech did 1 damage on Dolan with Moon Saber, or Dragon Emperor after he casted flare, my moon saber covered party did 1 damage with level 2/3 techs until I applied anti-magic
For L2/3 techs I made all of immune, absorb and reflect just deal 1 damage; if mispolm used countermagic he reflects most elements including wind.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Mr X on January 05, 2022, 07:44:47 am
I meant reloading via ingame save/load menu.

Yeah I think I did that once at least unintentionally


Quote
For L2/3 techs I made all of immune, absorb and reflect just deal 1 damage; if mispolm used countermagic he reflects most elements including wind.

Ok so this is normal/intended behavior then, neat
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: VicVergil on January 06, 2022, 12:24:48 am
For fan translation, text errors.  For official, some of the names that I just didn't like.
The font is easily editable in either version, but the problem lies with the text. It's compressed. However no tools for uncompressing it were ever made public, so you can't really fix the translation until it does.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on January 06, 2022, 12:29:25 am
The font is easily editable in either version, but the problem lies with the text. It's compressed. However no tools for uncompressing it were ever made public, so you can't really fix the translation until it does.

Yeah.  Kinda expected that.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on January 06, 2022, 04:45:51 am
Grr.  The anticipation of the new version is killing me.  Really looking forward to trying it out.

Btw, can anyone recommend me a good action rpg and/or action adventure for SNES or NDS?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: MD_Prometh on January 06, 2022, 09:07:35 am
Soul Blazer is a good shout, even if the translation is pretty poor.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Messianic on January 06, 2022, 03:51:28 pm
Grr.  The anticipation of the new version is killing me.  Really looking forward to trying it out.

Btw, can anyone recommend me a good action rpg and/or action adventure for SNES or NDS?

I hear the ROM hack of Earthbound called Mother 2 Deluxe 2.0 is pretty good. https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/2518/
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on January 06, 2022, 06:11:51 pm
Thanks.  I already played Earthbound (which is Mother 2), but that's not action rpg nor action adventure.  That's just straight up rpg.

I haven't tried Soul Blazer.  I heard about it, but I don't know anything about it.  I shall give that a go.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on January 06, 2022, 06:24:41 pm
Btw, can anyone recommend me a good action rpg and/or action adventure for SNES or NDS?
If you've not tried it yet I'd suggest you give Terranigma a try.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Vanya on January 06, 2022, 07:14:56 pm
And Illusion of Gaia, too.
In fact, I suggest playing them in the order they were released.
Blazer -> Illusion -> Terra
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on January 06, 2022, 10:50:54 pm
Thanks.  I played both Illusion of Gaia and Terranigma.  I didn't know the 3 games were related.  Didn't particularly like Gaia, but Terranigma was absolute a blast.  Loved it so much.  Did all of sidequests too.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Zimgief on January 07, 2022, 05:12:18 am
Equinox!
It' a bit rough around the edges, but very fun. I higly suggest that you draw a map on paper along your playthrough.
Of course it comes after Terranigma and Illusion of Gaïa (but I liked it better than Soul Blazer).

Brandish 2
is not an action-adventure but a semi-real time action adventure if I may say. It is not exactly what you asked, but it's one of my favourite games, so I give it a shout out nonetheless. :D
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on January 07, 2022, 08:49:28 am
@soul_knight

Pff.  If you want action rpg, then you really should try Front Mission Gun Hazard.  It's sort of like Castlevania SOTN, since you can explore all the maps (as long as you "unlock" those maps), and you buy/sell/equip multiple parts.  And obviously, you level up as you kill more enemies (and you can grind for more exp if you want).  It's probably the first action rpg metroidvania that uses level up system, even before SOTN.

And yes, it's insanely good.  I'm sure others can tell you how good it is.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: the_grobe on January 07, 2022, 01:29:55 pm
And yes, it's insanely good.  I'm sure others can tell you how good it is.

seconded.  seriously good. 
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Mr X on January 07, 2022, 02:02:41 pm
@soul_knight

Pff.  If you want action rpg, then you really should try Front Mission Gun Hazard.  It's sort of like Castlevania SOTN, since you can explore all the maps (as long as you "unlock" those maps), and you buy/sell/equip multiple parts.  And obviously, you level up as you kill more enemies (and you can grind for more exp if you want).  It's probably the first action rpg metroidvania that uses level up system, even before SOTN.

And yes, it's insanely good.  I'm sure others can tell you how good it is.

Sounds like a hidden gem, I never heard of it till now (tho I am not well versed on games too much lol).

Looks neat from what I saw. I might give it a try later
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on January 07, 2022, 06:43:23 pm
@soul_knight

Pff.  If you want action rpg, then you really should try Front Mission Gun Hazard.  It's sort of like Castlevania SOTN, since you can explore all the maps (as long as you "unlock" those maps), and you buy/sell/equip multiple parts.  And obviously, you level up as you kill more enemies (and you can grind for more exp if you want).  It's probably the first action rpg metroidvania that uses level up system, even before SOTN.

And yes, it's insanely good.  I'm sure others can tell you how good it is.

I thought Front Mission was a strategy RPG.  I guess gun hazard was a spin off or something.  Based on what I can see on youtube, it seems like Cybernator and Metal Warrior.  Not sure how RPG mechanic works here, but I know I greatly enjoyed both Cybernator and Metal Warrior.  I shall try this game first.

January 09, 2022, 12:51:30 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
You should have said that there's a translation for Gun Hazard.  I was gonna ditch this, because it was in Japanese, then I remembered that there might be a translation, so I searched, and there it is!

In any case, thanks.  And thank you all for your suggestions.  I see that they're all for SNES, but I'd appreciate it if you can recommend some NDS games too.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on January 10, 2022, 05:54:46 pm
In any case, thanks.  And thank you all for your suggestions.  I see that they're all for SNES, but I'd appreciate it if you can recommend some NDS games too.

Well, there's the obvious KHs and Zeldas and Castlevanias, but others include Okamiden, Dragon Quest Rocket Slime (yes, this is a very fun action adventure), and Maple Story (it's a Korean metroidvania with level ups and equipment management, and there's an Eng translation -- I haven't tried the translation, because I'm fluent in Korean).

A side note:  this isn't action adventure nor action rpg, but it's my personal fav NDS game -- Custom Robo Arena.  It's a fighting game, sort of, but it is so so damn good.  If you're gonna play NDS, I suggest you to try that.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on January 11, 2022, 07:55:37 am
Well, there's the obvious KHs and Zeldas and Castlevanias, but others include Okamiden, Dragon Quest Rocket Slime (yes, this is a very fun action adventure), and Maple Story (it's a Korean metroidvania with level ups and equipment management, and there's an Eng translation -- I haven't tried the translation, because I'm fluent in Korean).

A side note:  this isn't action adventure nor action rpg, but it's my personal fav NDS game -- Custom Robo Arena.  It's a fighting game, sort of, but it is so so damn good.  If you're gonna play NDS, I suggest you to try that.

I played all of those.  CRA was great indeed.  I played everything you listed, except for Maple Story.  I'm pretty sure Maple Story is a phone game, but I guess NDS released something there too.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: hmsong on January 13, 2022, 06:07:31 pm
@praetarius5018

So, did you settle on the mechanics of aggro meter and its related subject?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on January 14, 2022, 02:26:45 am
Not yet, no.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Dzumeister on January 21, 2022, 03:39:33 am
Are there any plans on bringing the bugfixes patch to the Trials of Mana English version?
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: praetarius5018 on January 21, 2022, 01:02:49 pm
The chance of that happening is right about 0 or less.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: soul_knight on January 22, 2022, 10:09:32 pm
@praetarius5018

Hey.  Recently, I came across this post in gamefaqs regarding the topic, "My least favorite area...":

Quote
...would have to be the Ghost Ship.

The reason for this is a severe pet peeve I have with allowing party members to drift apart in Exp counts. In any game that has a party that can level, if there is any reasonable way to get their levels to be even and keep them that way I always try anything I can to do so. In Final Fantasy 1 that meant that a single character death (or petrification) just prior to winning a fight could cost me large chunk of gameplay if I had not saved recently.

SD3 is one of these games, while not ever starting out at the same level, it is relatively easy to even out the three characters shortly after getting the 3rd one. (There are a few decent places for mono-character grinding near Maia)

Of course then you hit the Ghost Ship and it forces you to ditch one character for at the very minimum the boss fight (if you avoid literally every enemy until then). And this really irritates my pet peeve.

Of course this game actually has a much easier and more frustrating way of breaking party exp equilibrium... Any status that incapacitates one of your characters has the same effect on exp as being dead. If a monster dies while a character is asleep, snowman, petrified, etc, they receive no exp for it with the single exception of the victory kill. I have actually noticed (and I'm sure I am not the first) that no matter the condition, characters will always receive the exp for the last monster (or group) that was defeated that causes the victory to display, since at that point all status effects are wiped just as the exp is being portioned out.

That victory effect meant, at least for my balancing the party's exp totals to all be the same that my best farming places where in screens that had multiple groups of enemies and ideally one loner that can easily be left behind to skip the victory dialog from ever showing.

That actually happens when fighting Gildervine, as sleeping characters don't get exp either.

And that got me thinking.  Could you somehow make it so that there's some sort of auto-exp balancing mechanism?  Similar to your exp balance when you're underleveled, could you make it so that the party members who are below the top exp character get some extra exp?  Well, maybe not exp, but those who are below the top leveled character? (+100% exp sounds good).  That way, it'll auto-balance the below-level party members, eventually.  This would help in all cases mentioned above.  I thought this is an interesting idea.
Title: Re: Seiken Densetsu 3 (aka Trials of Mana) Hacks Discussion
Post by: Mr X on January 23, 2022, 05:03:00 am
@praetarius5018

Hey.  Recently, I came across this post in gamefaqs regarding the topic, "My least favorite area...":

That actually happens when fighting Gildervine, as sleeping characters don't get exp either.

And that got me thinking.  Could you somehow make it so that there's some sort of auto-exp balancing mechanism?  Similar to your exp balance when you're underleveled, could you make it so that the party members who are below the top exp character get some extra exp?  Well, maybe not exp, but those who are below the top leveled character? (+100% exp sounds good).  That way, it'll auto-balance the below-level party members, eventually.  This would help in all cases mentioned above.  I thought this is an interesting idea.

I always skip the enemies in ghost ship and go straight for the boss after character gets split

As for sleep status didn't know characters don't gain experience when inflicted with that status.  :huh:
Doesn't seem like such a noticeable difference there when I never noticed it.