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Romhacking => ROM Hacking Discussion => Topic started by: Special on June 14, 2021, 02:43:48 am

Title: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Special on June 14, 2021, 02:43:48 am
Recently this was released;

https://www.romhacking.net/translations/6127/

It's really cool that this game/RPGOne's translation finally got the love that it deserves and now's it's all fixed up thanks to Rod Merida, but the intro title screen now placed in this Hack is quite frankly disgusting...

I'm all for credit when and where credit is due, and much love to Rod Merida and co. for doing this addendum, but IMO that intro is bad.

Would and could a fellow ROM hacker here be willing to remove this "intro" from the hack?
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Grandpaf on June 14, 2021, 08:19:47 am
Glad I'm not the only one who had quite a reaction when the splash screen booted. Almost though my pc was hijacked... I think Would look way better if that « thing » didnt spin on the screen with such saturated colors.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 14, 2021, 10:54:43 am
I had a DM conversation with RodMerida where I suggested that he do this English port of the bug fixes around the time when he released the Spanish translation. I had offered help with doing some testing for additional bugs that I had encountered in the past. I recently gave some bug related feedback, but I also noted my concerns with the new title screen. I asked if he could help me disable it (along with the original fan title screen) in order to use this as a base for my translation work. Frankly, all he was willing to do is tell me to press select (which reverts to the original fan title screen), and then he went on to criticize my desire to continue work on new English translations, how it divides the fan base, etc. I was thoroughly disappointed with that whole exchange.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Choppasmith on June 14, 2021, 11:51:35 am
I'm a little torn honestly. On one hand, I only saw the screenshot and I can see how people call it jarring. On the other hand fans have been asking for these big fixes for YEARS and I'm quite thankful Rod finally fixed them and if he feels like he wants to leave his mark with his own splash screen, I don't have a problem with that.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: svenge on June 14, 2021, 01:43:09 pm
...And then he went on to criticize my desire to continue work on new English translations, how it divides the fan base, etc. I was thoroughly disappointed with that whole exchange.

Dude has a point when it comes to your ass-pulled spell translations, though.  It makes the mechanics of the actually playing the game less accessible in a misguided aim to replicate the "magic" of Japanese fans discovering the game for the first time way back when.  Simply using the modern official spell translations would make things simpler for everyone, especially since the only people who would be interested in a modern translation of the old NES games are long-time DQ fans who have ingrained expectations of what existing spell names are used for a given task due to playing later games in the franchise on their native modern platforms.

That's entire point of societal conventions existing, after all.  To use an extreme example, what if you were driving down the road and some rando decided to go down the (conventionally) "wrong" side and collide with you head-on just because it fits his whimsical image of which side of the road cars should drive on?
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Masaru on June 14, 2021, 01:56:45 pm
I have a patch that desactivates the splash screen, but i don't know if post it here
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 14, 2021, 02:00:20 pm
@svenge

First, his criticism had nothing to do with our spell names. It had to do him thinking that the original DQI&II translation by RPGOne was nearly perfect as is, extremely important to gaming history, and that my group would commit some kind of great sin by tarnishing it with a new translation. I gave him multiple examples of significant translation problems in the RPGOne script.

Second, did you play through one of our projects? Or did you read a list of spell names and get annoyed? Two very different experiences. I've had a couple people read the list and criticize our work, but I don't think we've had a person play through a game with them and not offer specifically positive feedback on the naming scheme. I'm not saying criticism in that context isn't possible, but it seems rare at best. You make this odd comparison to someone driving on the wrong side of the road and causing a crash, but... I really don't think our spell names are that confusing. The meanings are mostly obvious, especially if you start with DQ1.

I did think long and hard about which direction we wanted to go with this. I get the different points of view out there, and I definitely get not pleasing everyone. If it was like Final Fantasy where the English versions (Fira/Firaga/etc) are pretty close to the Japanese versions, we probably would have just left the existing system in place regardless of where it diverges. But in DQ's case, neither English system works or feels anything like the Japanese system. And a translation is a translation. Our approach was not one of fan service, but of faithfulness to Horii, however that gets received by English speakers. Spells, like equipment, like character names, were all treated as part of the translation in the end. There are definitely people who appreciate this approach, as many have expressed.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: lilpuddy31 on June 14, 2021, 02:23:00 pm
I have a patch that desactivates the splash screen, but i don't know if post it here

The new splash screen? Or the old one? or Both?
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: svenge on June 14, 2021, 05:49:46 pm
I did think long and hard about which direction we wanted to go with this. I get the different points of view out there, and I definitely get not pleasing everyone. If it was like Final Fantasy where the English versions (Fira/Firaga/etc) are pretty close to the Japanese versions, we probably would have just left the existing system in place regardless of where it diverges. But in DQ's case, neither English system works or feels anything like the Japanese system. And a translation is a translation. Our approach was not one of fan service, but of faithfulness to Horii, however that gets received by English speakers. Spells, like equipment, like character names, were all treated as part of the translation in the end. There are definitely people who appreciate this approach, as many have expressed.

While I'm not disputing that you didn't think this through, my belief is that ideals sometimes have to make way for usability and practicality.  Items and equipment don't have nearly as many "touch points" as spells in that the "fight" command is universal for all weapons, and items are used relatively infrequently.  As such, having non-standard names (i.e. ones not conforming to modern convention) for them isn't nearly as problematic as compared to spells, which are much more frequently used.

My opinion is that at the very least it would be nice if there were an intermediate option with more conventional names offered as well, much like how the original RPGONE patch for DQ 1+2 (SFC)  (https://www.romhacking.net/translations/337/)was made available with separate "Dragon Warrior" and "Dragon Quest" variants.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Red Soul on June 14, 2021, 06:17:25 pm
I have a patch that desactivates the splash screen, but i don't know if post it here

I'd certainly like it. While obviously the addendum authors deserve credit where it's due, the whole cracktro style thing they put there is a bit much, to me.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 14, 2021, 06:38:22 pm
While I'm not disputing that you didn't think this through, my belief is that ideals sometimes have to make way for usability and practicality.  Items and equipment don't have nearly as many "touch points" as spells in that the "fight" command is universal for all weapons, and items are used relatively infrequently.  As such, having non-standard names (i.e. ones not conforming to modern convention) for them isn't nearly as problematic as compared to spells, which are much more frequently used.

My opinion is that at the very least it would be nice if there were an intermediate option with more conventional names offered as well, much like how the original RPGONE patch for DQ 1+2 (SFC)  (https://www.romhacking.net/translations/337/)was made available with separate "Dragon Warrior" and "Dragon Quest" variants.
I don't want to continue here with a side conversation that has ventured pretty far off the topic of this thread. Will DM you if that's ok.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: TRIFORCE89 on June 14, 2021, 07:48:00 pm
I don't know if this helps anyone or anything at all, but I found this bugfixed and text revised version (https://www.patreon.com/posts/dq1-2-revision-16831220) a while back. I recently played through it (both titles), enjoyed it, and didn't encounter any game-breaking glitches. Archive has a readme list of changes.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Red Soul on June 14, 2021, 10:11:42 pm
I don't know if this helps anyone or anything at all, but a while back I found this bugfixed and text revised version (https://www.patreon.com/posts/dq1-2-revision-16831220) a while back. I recently played through it (both titles), enjoyed it, and didn't encounter any game-breaking glitches. Archive has a readme list of changes.

Krisan-Thyme did an amazing job with SMT3 Maniax Chronicles Edition. I had no idea he worked on this too.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Special on June 15, 2021, 02:12:12 am
I don't know if this helps anyone or anything at all, but I found this bugfixed and text revised version (https://www.patreon.com/posts/dq1-2-revision-16831220) a while back. I recently played through it (both titles), enjoyed it, and didn't encounter any game-breaking glitches. Archive has a readme list of changes.

So how do I patch it, it lacks any instructions about so... Do I patch it to a clean JAP ROM? Does the ROM need a header or be headerless? Or do I use an already pre-patched RPGONE ROM as base?
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: lilpuddy31 on June 15, 2021, 03:24:47 am
So how do I patch it, it lacks any instructions about so... Do I patch it to a clean JAP ROM? Does the ROM need a header or be headerless? Or do I use an already pre-patched RPGONE ROM as base?

you'll need a clean headerless rom
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Choppasmith on June 15, 2021, 03:31:44 pm
I don't know if this helps anyone or anything at all, but I found this bugfixed and text revised version (https://www.patreon.com/posts/dq1-2-revision-16831220) a while back. I recently played through it (both titles), enjoyed it, and didn't encounter any game-breaking glitches. Archive has a readme list of changes.

Oh neat, this guy posted here around the time I started work on DW1 Re-Quest. I wanted to give it a try but the link he offered was a broken link and he just shrugged and seemed he wasn’t too sure if he’d continue.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: JKPhage on June 15, 2021, 11:20:41 pm
I don't know if this helps anyone or anything at all, but I found this bugfixed and text revised version (https://www.patreon.com/posts/dq1-2-revision-16831220) a while back. I recently played through it (both titles), enjoyed it, and didn't encounter any game-breaking glitches. Archive has a readme list of changes.

This version really needs to be on RHDN. If it fixes bugs, which apparently it does, without adding a crazy splash screen for no reason then it's already miles ahead of what we've got. Beyond that, it fixes that god awful choice to call it the "Ball of Light". That's one of the first lines spoken in the game and I knew then and there that I couldn't play through that version without constantly rolling my eyes. Just booted this one up and started working through it and just being able to take the story semi-seriously is amazing. Seems like the ideal version of the game honestly.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Masaru on June 16, 2021, 02:16:28 pm
Here's how do you desactivate the splash screen in the RodMerida patch

1.Open HxD
2.Open your pre-patched rom on HxD
3.At the first offset replace 5C 00 84 26 5C 04 80 00 with D8 78 18 FB C2 10 E2 20

This happens because Rod almost didn't changed the values where the RPGONE splash screen were
(https://i.imgur.com/GPfwCni.png)
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: lilpuddy31 on June 16, 2021, 04:50:47 pm
Here's how do you desactivate the splash screen in the RodMerida patch

1.Open HxD
2.Open your pre-patched rom on HxD
3.At the first offset replace 5C 00 84 26 5C 04 80 00 with D8 78 18 FB C2 10 E2 20

This happens because Rod almost didn't changed the values where the RPGONE splash screen were
(https://i.imgur.com/GPfwCni.png)

Does it remove the RPGone splash screen also?
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Masaru on June 16, 2021, 04:59:27 pm
Does it remove the RPGone splash screen also?
For the RPGONE splash screen is almost the same, replace the first 4 bites with D8 78 18 FB
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: goldenband on June 16, 2021, 05:07:42 pm
It's a nice luxury that we apparently have two different patches that fix the bugs in Dragon Quest I & II. Do we have comparable patches to address the game-breaking bugs in the translation patch for Dragon Quest III (on the SFC, obviously)?

A comment in the review of RodMerida's patch -- "It’s great to know that now it is possible to enjoy the whole of the Dragon Quest’s first Trilogy with all the trappings of a 16-bit uplift without any worries" -- seemed to suggest that someone had addressed the known issues with III, but I don't see anything as of right now.

There's also supposedly a game-breaking glitch with V, but I don't know if that's an issue with the original game, or with both of the allegedly-complete translation patches, or just one of them.

In any event thanks to both hackers who have worked on I & II. I'll always have a special regard for people who squash these bugs that have been hovering for years or decades (see also Do-Re-Mi Fantasy).
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Special on June 16, 2021, 06:54:57 pm
This version really needs to be on RHDN.

Maybe the author doesn't want it on RHDN? For one, I'd be pretty pissed if something I made/worked on (lets say music), was turning up on random sites because some user didn't ask for permission first. Maybe that person wants to keep their work to their twitter/patreon/whatever.

Here's how do you desactivate the splash screen in the RodMerida patch

1.Open HxD
2.Open your pre-patched rom on HxD
3.At the first offset replace 5C 00 84 26 5C 04 80 00 with D8 78 18 FB C2 10 E2 20

So simple even my grandma could do it, thanks!
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: PRG on June 16, 2021, 10:14:13 pm
I don't know if this helps anyone or anything at all, but I found this bugfixed and text revised version (https://www.patreon.com/posts/dq1-2-revision-16831220) a while back. I recently played through it (both titles), enjoyed it, and didn't encounter any game-breaking glitches. Archive has a readme list of changes.

This one is very good, but it seems to have a somewhat annoying bug of the faerie flute not working on the golem at all, rendering it unbeatable. No matter what I tried, it would have no effect until I resorted to using different hack and loading the same savestate in order to beat the golem. I'd send them feedback, but I don't want to do the whole patreon thing. One day, I hope we get the perfect modernized and bug-free version of DQ1+2 on SNES.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: lilpuddy31 on June 16, 2021, 10:46:56 pm
This one is very good, but it seems to have a somewhat annoying bug of the faerie flute not working on the golem at all, rendering it unbeatable. No matter what I tried, it would have no effect until I resorted to using different hack and loading the same savestate in order to beat the golem. I'd send them feedback, but I don't want to do the whole patreon thing. One day, I hope we get the perfect modernized and bug-free version of DQ1+2 on SNES.

Using Rod's patch and using HxD to disable the splash screens makes it pretty damn great.  Rod seems set on making it bug free as well, I've already brought one issue to his attention and he updated the patch later that day...
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: goldenband on June 17, 2021, 12:18:48 am
This one is very good, but it seems to have a somewhat annoying bug of the faerie flute not working on the golem at all, rendering it unbeatable. No matter what I tried, it would have no effect until I resorted to using different hack and loading the same savestate in order to beat the golem.
Ooooooooof. :( I'd say that goes beyond "somewhat annoying" and into "game-breaking", though if you can get past it with a different ROM then that's something. But that makes RodMerida's patch an unequivocal front-runner for me, since a game-breaking glitch is demoralizing and risks wasting many hours of effort.

I played a translated game recently where I had to switch to the Japanese original to get past an otherwise-unavoidable crashing bug...I need to write a RHDN review for that one, actually.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Special on June 17, 2021, 12:45:10 am
rendering it unbeatable.

But TRIFORCE89 said he beat it and didn't encounter any game-breaking glitches. Are you calling him a lier??!  :P
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: TRIFORCE89 on June 17, 2021, 08:13:40 am
As luck would have it, I take note of the patches I apply and if my notes are to be believed (this was a year ago) I didn't apply Krisan Thyme's alpha patch to a base rom but overtop hex_usr's work (https://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php?topic=19449.msg313144#msg313144) first. Not sure if that's the differentiating factor here, but I didn't encounter that flute glitch. But then again, this is listed as an alpha, so it could be anything.

Anyway, back to Rod Merida...
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: JKPhage on June 17, 2021, 03:37:48 pm
This one is very good, but it seems to have a somewhat annoying bug of the faerie flute not working on the golem at all, rendering it unbeatable. No matter what I tried, it would have no effect until I resorted to using different hack and loading the same savestate in order to beat the golem. I'd send them feedback, but I don't want to do the whole patreon thing. One day, I hope we get the perfect modernized and bug-free version of DQ1+2 on SNES.

In fairness, you don't *have* to use the flute to beat the Golem, according to a quick google search. It just makes it easier. You could also just grind out a few levels and steamroll through it by sheer force. Not like JRPG's across the ages aren't infamous for sudden and sometimes dramatic difficulty spikes on boss battles that require you to do exactly that. If this is the case, yes it's a bug, but it does not in any way render the game unbeatable. Unless it simultaneously made the Golem invincible then it just turns it from a "beat the boss with a trick item" moment into a "level check" moment.

That said, I'm gonna try out Triforce's method of applying the hex_usr patch then layering Krisan's patch over top of that. I tried that with the original RPGONE version I had laying around and it rendered the rom unplayable and just booted to a black screen. If putting these two together results in a version that boots then I see no problem. Then again, did Triforce know about the flute? Did he just brute force the boss anyway? If that's the case and he was able to complete the game flute-free then it may be a case of trying to fix a problem with a method that doesn't actually fix it. If Triforce doesn't remember then I guess someone is just gonna have to test it. I'm currently working my way through DQ1 for the first time using just Krisan's patch, so I guess I'll report back after I've finished it. If that's the only issue you've run into then I'd call it a smashing success frankly, for fixing a janky translation and squashing multiple bugs at the same time.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: TRIFORCE89 on June 17, 2021, 08:18:12 pm
JKPhage, I know of the flute - but I don't remember if I used the flute on that specific playthrough. I suspect I did though.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: JKPhage on June 17, 2021, 09:58:58 pm
Fair enough. I'm currently working through the game using only Krisan's patch, but I have a version that was patched with hex_usr's patch, then layered with Krisan's (and just as a cherry on top, hex edited with the instructions from this thread to get rid of the RPGONE splash screen as well) so when I come up against the golem I'll see if the flute works as-is, and if not I'll swap over to the double-patched one and try my luck there then report back. If I can confirm that the flute works with the latter method, as convoluted as it may be, I'd say it's worth the effort to have a bug-fixed, better translated and non-splash screened release of the game finally. Shouldn't take me too much longer before I hit that point.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Red Soul on June 17, 2021, 10:17:31 pm
It's a nice luxury that we apparently have two different patches that fix the bugs in Dragon Quest I & II. Do we have comparable patches to address the game-breaking bugs in the translation patch for Dragon Quest III (on the SFC, obviously)?

A comment in the review of RodMerida's patch -- "It’s great to know that now it is possible to enjoy the whole of the Dragon Quest’s first Trilogy with all the trappings of a 16-bit uplift without any worries" -- seemed to suggest that someone had addressed the known issues with III, but I don't see anything as of right now.

There's also supposedly a game-breaking glitch with V, but I don't know if that's an issue with the original game, or with both of the allegedly-complete translation patches, or just one of them.

In any event thanks to both hackers who have worked on I & II. I'll always have a special regard for people who squash these bugs that have been hovering for years or decades (see also Do-Re-Mi Fantasy).

It's my mistake, I assumed 3 was bug free. I'll amend my review to avoid misleading information.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: laserlambert on June 17, 2021, 10:36:20 pm
The Krisan patch at least has a glitch with the battles, when you cast the sizz spell, a broken window to select the target appears (why is there a target select in DQ1 anyway?) and then the part that was broken appears and stays, at least the rest of the turn.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: JKPhage on June 18, 2021, 05:53:05 am
The Krisan patch at least has a glitch with the battles, when you cast the sizz spell, a broken window to select the target appears (why is there a target select in DQ1 anyway?) and then the part that was broken appears and stays, at least the rest of the turn.

I've been playing this version and I can tell you that it does not. I'm guessing you started from a bad base rom or something, but I've used sizz multiple times and never had anything of the sort happen.

That said, I just got to Cantlin and the Golem fight and can confirm that the flute does *not* put the Golem to sleep at all. I even turned on a cheat for infinite HP and just sat there spamming the flute for a few dozen turns thinking that it might be treating it like it does with other monsters and only works sometimes. It never happened. I switched over to a version of the rom patched as Triforce mentioned, with the hex_usr patch applied first and then re-patched with Krisan's. It behaved the exact same way. Whatever broke it doesn't get fixed with that method either. That said, the flute was only ever a way to make the fight easier, since it can still wake up and you have to keep putting it back to sleep. It doesn't make the game unbeatable, just puts a hard strength/skill check towards the end of it. I'd still say it's the best of the options available for ease of patching (one and done), lack of splash screen and the vastly improved terminology in the translation. For out of the box use, it's the easiest and delivers the most polished product. If anyone is unsure which option to go with, my vote is for Krisan's patch. Simple, easy and quality.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: KingMike on June 18, 2021, 09:27:45 am
The Krisan patch at least has a glitch with the battles, when you cast the sizz spell, a broken window to select the target appears (why is there a target select in DQ1 anyway?) and then the part that was broken appears and stays, at least the rest of the turn.
I'll assume the target window appearing is a glitch from using the same engine as 2, for which the compilation is presumably sharing an engine with DQ5.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: laserlambert on June 18, 2021, 10:37:03 am
I've been playing this version and I can tell you that it does not. I'm guessing you started from a bad base rom or something, but I've used sizz multiple times and never had anything of the sort happen.
I've tried as many different versions of the rom as I can find, and tried it on multiple emulators and the result is the same.
(https://i.imgur.com/LIaWhEL.png)(https://i.imgur.com/f75Gyu8.png)
See the window that says the monster name is cut. and then that corner of a window peeking out in the second one. It's not a big glitch, but it is there.
I'd be interested in what went into you not getting it, but I guess this might technically be off topic, and also, isn't important.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: JKPhage on June 18, 2021, 03:26:55 pm
I'd be interested in what went into you not getting it, but I guess this might technically be off topic, and also, isn't important.

Not really off-topic. I don't have any such issues. The target window pops up, it doesn't get cut off, nor does the weird partial highlight happen, and nothing sticks around until the end of the turn. It simply functions as one would expect it to. All I did was use the rom from the no-intro set and applied the patch as-is with nothing else added to it. Did you patch over an already patched rom by chance? Or use one from another source? Clean rom + Krisan patch = working smoothly and as-intended. Aside from the fairy flute hiccup, of course.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Red Soul on June 18, 2021, 05:52:59 pm
Maybe it has to do with the length of the MC's name? a shot in the dark, but who knows.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: laserlambert on June 18, 2021, 06:17:38 pm
Maybe it has to do with the length of the MC's name? a shot in the dark, but who knows.
I tried it with a long name (as pictured) and a one character name, both same results.
Not really off-topic. I don't have any such issues. The target window pops up, it doesn't get cut off, nor does the weird partial highlight happen, and nothing sticks around until the end of the turn. It simply functions as one would expect it to. All I did was use the rom from the no-intro set and applied the patch as-is with nothing else added to it. Did you patch over an already patched rom by chance? Or use one from another source? Clean rom + Krisan patch = working smoothly and as-intended. Aside from the fairy flute hiccup, of course.
I've used now 7 different roms from different sources including now the no-intro set. Completely clean every time. Tested on different emulators. same results.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Red Soul on June 18, 2021, 06:26:54 pm
What did you use to patch? in my experience, some patchers really mess up the results. I recommend RHDN's own patcher. Also pay attention to header requirements.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: laserlambert on June 18, 2021, 07:40:44 pm
What did you use to patch? in my experience, some patchers really mess up the results. I recommend RHDN's own patcher. Also pay attention to header requirements.
I used Lunar IPS and also used my emulator's soft patching.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Red Soul on June 18, 2021, 08:20:33 pm
I had issues with Lunar IPS. Can you try with FLIPS instead?

https://www.romhacking.net/utilities/1040/
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Choppasmith on June 18, 2021, 09:24:50 pm
I've tried as many different versions of the rom as I can find, and tried it on multiple emulators and the result is the same.
(https://i.imgur.com/LIaWhEL.png)(https://i.imgur.com/f75Gyu8.png)
See the window that says the monster name is cut. and then that corner of a window peeking out in the second one. It's not a big glitch, but it is there.
I'd be interested in what went into you not getting it, but I guess this might technically be off topic, and also, isn't important.

I haven’t touched DQ1+2 hacking yet (I know I’ll get there  :-\) but I remember Krisan’s patch had a fix for the enemy bar so it could display Prestidigitator (making it a little wider by a couple tiles). If it’s ANYTHING like the NES games there’s a value somewhere affecting window size and placement maybe moving it left a couple of tiles might fix that.

On the other hand, I don’t know why laserlambert is getting it and not anyone else. It might be a hero  name length issue since it’s only supposed to be 4 letters but it was hacked to allow 8 letters.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 20, 2021, 09:57:01 am
Glad I'm not the only one who had quite a reaction when the splash screen booted. Almost though my pc was hijacked... I think Would look way better if that « thing » didnt spin on the screen with such saturated colors.

LOLOLOLOLOLOL.

How may this poor splash screen bite you?
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: JKPhage on June 20, 2021, 10:59:40 am
LOLOLOLOLOLOL.

How may this poor splash screen bite you?

This is not how you should respond to valid criticism. Your splash screen is O B N O X I O U S. You can't even read the damn thing because it's spinning in a circle, meaning it's not only obnoxious, it's pointless as well. Are you aware that the rom used for this patch comes from the "No-Intro" set, so named specifically because "scene" releasers used to rip games and stick their own such obnoxious splash screens in front of them? People *hated it*. I get it, you want credit for your work, but nobody can read the method you've used, and you could have just as easily added a line of text to the title screen along with copyright information with a "Bugfixed by RodMerida" line.

Let me be blunt: You splash screen sucks. It was a bad decision on your part. There is literally a response in this thread explaining to people how to remove it via a hex editor. Nobody likes it. Nobody wants it. When people tell you things like this, don't laugh like a troll and make fun of them. You're the one that was so desperate for recognition you stuck a spinning rainbow splash screen with cheesy zoom effects into a game you hacked. Your attitude is piss-poor.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 20, 2021, 11:57:33 am
*LOLOLOLOL*.

You can hold A button and it stops, and you read it peacefully as much time as you want Lol.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Bonesy on June 20, 2021, 02:51:28 pm
This is not how you should respond to valid criticism. Your splash screen is O B N O X I O U S. You can't even read the damn thing because it's spinning in a circle, meaning it's not only obnoxious, it's pointless as well. Are you aware that the rom used for this patch comes from the "No-Intro" set, so named specifically because "scene" releasers used to rip games and stick their own such obnoxious splash screens in front of them? People *hated it*. I get it, you want credit for your work, but nobody can read the method you've used, and you could have just as easily added a line of text to the title screen along with copyright information with a "Bugfixed by RodMerida" line.

Let me be blunt: You splash screen sucks. It was a bad decision on your part. There is literally a response in this thread explaining to people how to remove it via a hex editor. Nobody likes it. Nobody wants it. When people tell you things like this, don't laugh like a troll and make fun of them. You're the one that was so desperate for recognition you stuck a spinning rainbow splash screen with cheesy zoom effects into a game you hacked. Your attitude is piss-poor.

agree
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: JKPhage on June 20, 2021, 03:36:32 pm
*LOLOLOLOL*.

You can hold A button and it stops, and you read it peacefully as much time as you want Lol.

Again, your attitude is atrocious. It's okay though, because someone else provided a patch that's better than yours anyway. I don't care that you provided a patch, you're an asshole who can't take criticism. But that's the last I'll say on it, because you're not worth anymore of my time. Thanks for the patch, I guess, because the topic about it pointed me to the better one at least.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 20, 2021, 04:15:00 pm
It's not, because it breaks the text windows in battles.

So my humble patch, believe it or not, is a front runner (with splash screen included). It also changes "Ball of Light" to "Light Orb" since the last 1.031a update.

And if you didn't like the crediting screen you should have just only asked me for changing it to something milder, I'm constantly updating the patch as new people reports me about pre-existing bugs and I wouldn't have had any problem on considering that. RPGOne's row patch also included one and I have not ever seen anybody complains.
Translators and ROMhackers have a certain right to a little of crediting for his work. There is also a second person involved in this project, and my responsibility was to mention it.

Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Special on June 20, 2021, 04:25:16 pm
Here's how do you desactivate the splash screen in the RodMerida patch

This doesn't work anymore with the latest 1.03 version, R.I.P. my eyes. :(

Please RodMerida, make an official optional patch that removes this slash screen, this hack would otherwise be perfect.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: lilpuddy31 on June 20, 2021, 04:30:25 pm
Rod, have you submitted the 1.031a patch yet?
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 20, 2021, 04:37:29 pm
Why it bothers you guys so much. I don't understand it. It's beautiful cracktro from beginning of 90's that I have rescued from oblivion and customized. It passes quickly just by pressing A; it even offers players the chance to read about RPGone's credits (that seemed to involve many people, and would be a sacrilege from my part if I removed it; I would be profanating, and plagiarizing such a awesome translation, if I did). It's like a library of information! And it's damn beautiful! See what colours. I become hypnotized (not kidding).

Would you be more relaxed with an alternate splash screen in the RPGone's style. But I have to recognize I am a little surprised with this sudden, harsh reaction of some people, that seems to divide the opinion in the community.


June 20, 2021, 04:43:11 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Rod, have you submitted the 1.031a patch yet?

It's sent for updating since this afternoon. It's in the queue. But from my web page you can get it already: http://crackowia.gq/dqust1n2.html
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: saldite on June 20, 2021, 04:45:37 pm
It's not, because it breaks the text windows in battles.

So my humble patch, believe it or not, is a front runner (with splash screen included). It also changes "Ball of Light" to "Light Orb" since the last 1.031a update.

And if you didn't like the crediting screen you should have just only asked me for changing it to something milder, I'm constantly updating the patch as new people reports me about pre-existing bugs and I wouldn't have had any problem on considering that. RPGOne's row patch also included one and I have not ever seen anybody complains.
Translators and ROMhackers have a certain right to a little of crediting for his work. There is also a second person involved in this project, and my responsibility was to mention it.
I think the big issue is just the way the screen looks itself, with the spinning and bright colors and everything. I think if it was just a static screen that just said like "Made by so and such and this guy, fixes old patch, credit to rpgone for og patch, so on, etc" people probably wouldn't have been as turned off by it. I was personally indifferent/amused, but otherwise didn't really care as much as people are making it out to be in this thread.

IMO, in terms of functionality, I actually like your screen more than the original RPGOne version since I can actually skip yours faster with the B-Button (good for when I'm restarting 2 for better stats from seeds on real hardware), so even if you did mildify your screen, I'd still appreciate that functionality built in (I couldn't see a way to skip the RPGOne screen faster in my testing unless I just missed a button).

Otherwise, I just like the patch in general and agree it's probably the front-runner for the most bug-free experience. I'm not all that big on the newer, more punny official localization of the games, so I'm fine with the names either way.

The alternative patch is good for people who want more of an "official" localized terminology if they're willing to put up with some bugs, so we have options either way.


Do you have any plans of potentially bug-fixing any of the other DQ SNES patches (ala DQ3, DQ6)?
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 20, 2021, 04:50:40 pm
The spinning is pretty easy to remove. It actually does by pressing A. Not hard to reverse (so when pressing A it'll spin).

Do you think if I did so, this controversial matter would be solved?

I see some people suffering with this, even! I'm surprised!
Mine is much more skippable as you say.
People want everything!

What are those DQ3 bugs that you say, by the way? That interests me. Could you list them to me?
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: saldite on June 20, 2021, 05:06:14 pm
@Rod

On DQ3, the big one is a save issue if you save with somebody other than the hero in the first party slot. It's a pretty bug-free patch overall, but I know I got hit by that one on accident myself and it killed my progress at the time I played it. You can see it in action here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvcRr8uN2sQ The readme mentions something with spellnames and text overflows, but the save one is the big one I ran into (and pretty easy to avoid if you know about it).

DQ6 has issues with backing out of some menus fully crashing the game. Info > All and backing out of the equipment screen are the big ones I know of (mentioned in the patch readme). Outside of that, there are some misc chunks of it left untranslated (mainly older NPCs if you revisit some towns and some dummy text here or there). Nothing game-important, but it'd be cool to see this game get a fully bug-fixed patch that translates the few remaining strings left in the game.

Allegedly, some of the memory spells don't work either.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: reyvgm on June 20, 2021, 05:11:44 pm
The spinning is pretty easy to remove. It actually does by pressing A. Not hard to reverse (so when pressing A it'll spin).

Do you think if I did so, this controversial matter would be solved?


Yes please! Or at least have two patches, one with the intro and one without the intro.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Special on June 20, 2021, 05:12:38 pm
Why it bothers you guys so much. I don't understand it. It's beautiful cracktro from beginning of 90's that I have rescued from oblivion and customized. It passes quickly just by pressing A; it even offers players the chance to read about RPGone's credits (that seemed to involve many people, and would be a sacrilege from my part if I removed it; I would be profanating, and plagiarizing such a awesome translation, if I did). It's like a library of information! And it's damn beautiful! See what colours. I become hypnotized (not kidding).

Would you be more relaxed with an alternate splash screen in the RPGone's style. But I have to recognize I am a little surprised with this sudden, harsh reaction of some people, that seems to divide the opinion in the community.


June 20, 2021, 04:43:11 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
It's sent for updating since this afternoon. It's in the queue. But from my web page you can get it already: http://crackowia.gq/dqust1n2.html


There are many awesome and wonderful translations and hacks on this site and others sites too that use no splash screen's at all, credits are done in the readme files/docs that come with said translation/hacks.

Personally, its no slash or no bother, but I would really like to "bother" with your hack as it could be the definitive way to play this finally.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: reyvgm on June 20, 2021, 05:16:57 pm
If anyone wants to remove the splash screen in the latest patch, just change the entire first line to:

D8 78 18 FB C2 10 E2 20 A9 01 8D 0D 42 A2 FF 02

However, if you do that, it seems to break Dragon Quest 2. I can't proceed after entering my name.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Bosco82 on June 20, 2021, 05:27:00 pm
The earlier post is showing a Japanese rom so just change the first 8 bytes not the whole line
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: reyvgm on June 20, 2021, 05:28:03 pm
The earlier post is showing a Japanese rom so just change the first 8 bytes not the whole line

That doesn't work on the latest patch. The author changed it.

The original patch was:

5C 00 84 26 5C 04 80 00 A9 01 8D 0D 42 A2 FF 02

And the latest patch is:

5C 00 84 26 5C 04 80 00 5C 70 FF 09 5C 60 FE 09
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Bosco82 on June 20, 2021, 05:34:08 pm
you're right it doesn't seem to work
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Special on June 20, 2021, 05:42:06 pm
All I did on the newest patch was to replace 5C 00 84 26 5C 04 80 00 with D8 78 18 FB C2 10 E2 20 and it removes the splash screen

Did this for v1.02 and it worked, doing this for v1.03 and it does not, black screen.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Piotyr on June 20, 2021, 06:14:47 pm
Rodmerida I do wish to apologize for the anger over such a small (if annoying) thing and thank you for finally fixing this. Intros are a love it or hate it thing and some people REALLY hate them, but really we hate game breaking bugs more.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 20, 2021, 06:52:29 pm
That's what I have noticed; some people seem to prefere to play with game breaking than with a cracktro, Lol.

I even offer intermediate solutions and get no answer, just "I don't want your patch, thank you".

A splash there has to be (a non-removable one, by the way): otherwise someone may arrive, write nonsense over the English text and say he has translated it from Japanese, when he is just reinterpreting the RPGOne's script and just changing it to whatever goes out of his imagination and feels like, then say he has translated it from Japanese from scratch.
I can't allow this.
For a matter of respect to the original translator's work.
I'm here to protect his legacy!

Whoever wants to write his inventions will have a beautiful spinning screen telling the truth.

I've said my last word.

Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: reyvgm on June 20, 2021, 07:25:01 pm
Did this for v1.02 and it worked, doing this for v1.03 and it does not, black screen.

Can you PM the 1.02 patch? I would rather use an incomplete patch without the splash screen than a completed patch with that spinning nightmare.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Choppasmith on June 20, 2021, 07:28:33 pm
That's what I have noticed; some people seem to prefere to play with game breaking than with a cracktro, Lol.

I even offer intermediate solutions and get no answer, just "I don't want your patch, thank you".

A splash there has to be (a non-removable one, by the way): otherwise someone may arrive, write nonsense over the English text and say he has translated it from Japanese, when he is just reinterpreting the RPGOne's script and just changing it to whatever goes out of his imagination and feels like, then say he has translated it from Japanese from scratch.
I can't allow this.
For a matter of respect to the original translator's work.
I'm here to protect his legacy!

Whoever wants to write his inventions will have a beautiful spinning screen telling the truth.

I've said my last word.

I just want to reiterate what I said earlier in this thread and thank you for your hard work in fixing these bugs that have lingered for YEARS. I think you have every right to add your own personal splash screen.

I, myself, plan to port the
official Mobile/Switch script 1:1 to the SNES versions once I'm done with the NES games. I intend to use whatever best version of the English patch available as a base since the groundwork for English text is already there. If you're not okay with this, let me know as I don't want to step on anyone's toes. I just want fans a way to play the games "officially" without the awful mobile touch interface or bad upscaling of the Switch version.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: lilpuddy31 on June 20, 2021, 07:39:08 pm
Can you PM the 1.02 patch? I would rather use an incomplete patch without the splash screen than a completed patch with that spinning nightmare.

This is getting really stupid. You see it for less than a second, just press the B button when it shows up and continue about your day. People are acting like it is there during gameplay... This community is getting a rare celebration with this game finally being completed, but yeah let's ruin it all with complaining about a simple splash screen. Get over yourselves.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Choppasmith on June 20, 2021, 07:48:24 pm
This is getting really stupid. You see it for less than a second, just press the B button when it shows up and continue about your day. People are acting like it is there during gameplay... This community is getting a rare celebration with this game finally being completed, but yeah let's ruin it all with complaining about a simple splash screen. Get over yourselves.
I haven't had the chance to play this patch. It's really that quick? Geeze, I posted earlier saying I could understand thinking it stayed on the screen for a good while and the colors really bothered people but sheesh.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: reyvgm on June 20, 2021, 07:49:06 pm
This is getting really stupid. You see it for less than a second, just press the B button when it shows up and continue about your day. People are acting like it is there during gameplay... This community is getting a rare celebration with this game finally being completed, but yeah let's ruin it all with complaining about a simple splash screen. Get over yourselves.

It's my choice to care about the splash screen, just like it's your choice not to care about the splash screen. Get over yourselves.

Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: PRG on June 20, 2021, 07:52:24 pm
I can't say I'm a huge fan of splash screens myself, but I don't mind too much. I'd just be concerned as to how it will affect those who have photosensitive epilepsy due to the rainbow colors and the spinning.

But I'm happy to see people iron out these ancient bugs that have plagued this game for a very long time, so thank you for your hard work.

I just want to reiterate what I said earlier in this thread and thank you for your hard work in fixing these bugs that have lingered for YEARS. I think you have every right to add your own personal splash screen.

I, myself, plan to port the
official Mobile/Switch script 1:1 to the SNES versions once I'm done with the NES games. I intend to use whatever best version of the English patch available as a base since the groundwork for English text is already there. If you're not okay with this, let me know as I don't want to step on anyone's toes. I just want fans a way to play the games "officially" without the awful mobile touch interface or bad upscaling of the Switch version.

I just wanted to say, in spite of this becoming a bit off-topic, thank you for your work on Re-Quest. I have been a fan of the modern localizations for this series, so I have been most excited to see your projects for quite a while. I'm looking forward to your eventual work on the SNES ports, since the NES versions kick my butt quite thoroughly. I wish you the best on your project.

I really wish the switch ports didn't upscale the sprites, it was almost the definitive version of 1 and 2.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: lilpuddy31 on June 20, 2021, 07:59:47 pm
I haven't had the chance to play this patch. It's really that quick? Geeze, I posted earlier saying I could understand thinking it stayed on the screen for a good while and the colors really bothered people but sheesh.

Granted, it will stay on the screen as long as you let it stay, but like I said if you press the B button its stay is short
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: FCandChill on June 20, 2021, 09:28:21 pm
If anyone wants to remove the splash screen in the latest patch, just change the entire first line to:

D8 78 18 FB C2 10 E2 20 A9 01 8D 0D 42 A2 FF 02

However, if you do that, it seems to break Dragon Quest 2. I can't proceed after entering my name.

This is because the game references the bootcode again. Here's the full method on how to disable the intro...

Code: [Select]
0x000000: D87818FBC210E220A9
0x04B002: 5C70FF09

To the left are the offsets to change and to the right are the byte values to change to. In any case, the patch looks great, and I applaud the efforts of RodMerida.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Red Soul on June 20, 2021, 09:34:19 pm
The hacking work is indeed excellent, just a milder splash screen would be welcome.
No one here is trying to deny due credit, far from it, but a static logo or image with not many colors would be better, I think.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Piotyr on June 20, 2021, 09:43:47 pm
Note I do not like the splash screen but I REALLY don't like hostile and rude reactions to it.
Honestly I am guessing if there wasn't such a angery rude response maybe a dialog could be opened and a compromise be achieved, or maybe not but there is still no reason to be so hostile.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Red Soul on June 20, 2021, 09:55:14 pm
Note I do not like the splash screen but I REALLY don't like hostile and rude reactions to it.
Honestly I am guessing if there wasn't such a angery rude response maybe a dialog could be opened and a compromise be achieved, or maybe not but there is still no reason to be so hostile.

Probably, but that ship has probably sailed by this point, if I were to hazard a guess.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: reyvgm on June 20, 2021, 10:49:27 pm
This is because the game references the bootcode again. Here's the full method on how to disable the intro...

Code: [Select]
0x000000: D87818FBC210E220A9
0x04B002: 5C70FF09

To the left are the offsets to change and to the right are the byte values to change to. In any case, the patch looks great, and I applaud the efforts of RodMerida.

Thanks FCandChill!
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 21, 2021, 01:05:38 am
The hacking work is indeed excellent, just a milder splash screen would be welcome.
No one here is trying to deny due credit, far from it, but a static logo or image with not many colors would be better, I think.

Okay. I will do it. Promise!

June 21, 2021, 01:10:05 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
I just want to reiterate what I said earlier in this thread and thank you for your hard work in fixing these bugs that have lingered for YEARS. I think you have every right to add your own personal splash screen.

I, myself, plan to port the
official Mobile/Switch script 1:1 to the SNES versions once I'm done with the NES games. I intend to use whatever best version of the English patch available as a base since the groundwork for English text is already there. If you're not okay with this, let me know as I don't want to step on anyone's toes. I just want fans a way to play the games "officially" without the awful mobile touch interface or bad upscaling of the Switch version.

I have no problem you do that. It's legitimate in my point of view.
When you have done it if you need help for removing the splash screen or changing it by something else I will provide it.
Your thing can't be more legitimate.

June 21, 2021, 01:12:27 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
I haven't had the chance to play this patch. It's really that quick? Geeze, I posted earlier saying I could understand thinking it stayed on the screen for a good while and the colors really bothered people but sheesh.

It's immediate. No fading away effect. If you keep the B button pressed since you turn on you don't even see it.
Removing the spinning is not that easy, I will have to invent some machine code, but I'll do my best.

June 21, 2021, 01:26:41 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
I'm looking forward to your eventual work on the SNES ports, since the NES versions kick my butt quite thoroughly. I wish you the best on your project.

I really wish the switch ports didn't upscale the sprites, it was almost the definitive version of 1 and 2.

I can't agree more with you. The initiative this man intends to do is a praiseworthy one.


June 21, 2021, 01:27:21 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
In any case, the patch looks great, and I applaud the efforts of RodMerida.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: JKPhage on June 21, 2021, 01:30:23 am
Note I do not like the splash screen but I REALLY don't like hostile and rude reactions to it.
Honestly I am guessing if there wasn't such a angery rude response maybe a dialog could be opened and a compromise be achieved, or maybe not but there is still no reason to be so hostile.

For the record, not that it even needs to be stated since you can literally see his responses in this very thread, people complained about it and his response was to laugh at them and basically act like a troll, and when I called him out for it, he responded in the same manner. The splash screen is obnoxious. RPGONE got away with it almost two decades ago when splash screens were common things on basic roms, put there by whatever ripper or scene release group dumped them to claim credit for the game. It was just how things were back then. These days most people don't care for obnoxious additions to their games. I wouldn't even mind it that much if it was even a functional splash screen, but it's not. It sits there and spins around making it impossible to read, so it's just a big, flashing hot mess that serves no purpose whatsoever, however quick it may be able to skip past. When someone points this out and your initial reaction across the board is to laugh it off and act like a troll, the problem isn't with the people, it's with you. That's why a lot of people got mad/upset over it.

He's adjusted his tone now and is acting more civil, and open to changing it, but that doesn't excuse the fact that he's the one that responded to valid criticism with trollish behavior. If the blame lies with anyone for "attitude" around this hack, it's him. Personally, I think the splash screen should go entirely and if he insists on having his name somewhere on the rom itself, he can add a footnote to the title screen or something like everyone else does. If he insists on it staying then it at least needs to be something completely different so it at least serves a purpose and is less likely to give people with photosensitive epilepsy a seizure. It it's gonna be there it should be something safe and something that actually serves a purpose instead of just being a useless spinning text show-off because he thinks 90's cracktros were "beautiful".

Also, Rod, you responded to me earlier to say that Krisan's patch is worse than yours because it breaks text windows when it does not. I've played through the entirety of DQ1 and never had a single problem with text windows. You're putting yourself up against a patch that does everything yours does without a splash screen that is, at best, divisive and at worst obnoxious. It would be very simple to solve the problem outright by listening to what people are asking instead of digging in your heels and insisting that something people don't like is okay because *you* like it.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 21, 2021, 01:38:52 am
A troll why?
I think everything I've said so far is reasonable.
I've even offered solutions (like removing the spinning).

I was civil since the beginning. Just saw a lot of people over reacting with that during days and I got amazed. As a proverb from my land says: "Receive bad weather with good face."

And I won't spot the title screen with my name. I have no right to do that. That would be worse. Who am I to plague an Akira Toriyama title screen from 87/93 with my anonymous name? That's not having the slightest editorial respect.
The splash, at least, it's obvious it doesn't belong to the original game, since it's a cracktro; that's why I added it like that.

Anyway, don't worry, I will solve it.

My cracktro is not "safe"? Lol. Really?

P.S.: Many people have shared screenshots with battle dialog windows broken with that patch. Besides, not everybody likes oficial modern names, or not that much for bearing that.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Red Soul on June 21, 2021, 02:18:13 am
I think a modernized naming convention option would be a nice plus, for those that prefer it, while those that don't can play the existing patch as is.
While it is impossible to suit every person's particular tastes, having coverage in broad strokes is always welcome when it is possible.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 21, 2021, 02:43:34 am
Quote
That's what I have noticed; some people seem to prefere to play with game breaking than with a cracktro, Lol.

I even offer intermediate solutions and get no answer, just "I don't want your patch, thank you".

A splash there has to be (a non-removable one, by the way): otherwise someone may arrive, write nonsense over the English text and say he has translated it from Japanese, when he is just reinterpreting the RPGOne's script and just changing it to whatever goes out of his imagination and feels like, then say he has translated it from Japanese from scratch.
I can't allow this.
For a matter of respect to the original translator's work.
I'm here to protect his legacy!

Whoever wants to write his inventions will have a beautiful spinning screen telling the truth.

I've said my last word.
Wow. Your ignorance over what my Translation Quest group does is simply astounding. I'd normally be happy to explain, but our previous correspondence demonstrates how non-existent your interest is in understanding.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 21, 2021, 02:54:54 am
I was not specifying you.

Anyway, I still remember how you called me ignorant in our last correspondence, when I was just sharing and reasoning my point of view.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 21, 2021, 03:23:18 am
Quote
I was not specifying you.
Well, you might as well have, as the essence of your original replies to me was essentially the same.

I'm also trying to understand how you can admit elsewhere that English is not your forte, yet you consider yourself an authority on the quality of English in the  RPGOne script. I certainly hope that you don't consider yourself an expert on assessing its translation accuracy.

I do understand your devotion to an extent. RPGOne gave us a great gift in the work they originally did to make this game playable in English. And I think that the historical importance of that work will always be acknowledged in this community. As a huge Dragon Quest fan, I've always been grateful for what they did. But I wish you could acknowledge that different fans have different temperaments and appreciate different styles. While my group's approach is one of near-total loyalty to the Japanese works, someone else may come along and want to do a rewrite that isn't based on the Japanese. Some people will like it, many will not. What harm does that cause? Choppasmith and I have different philosophies and have had very different aims in our endeavors, but we have frequently collaborated together and have always sincerely congratulated one another on accomplishments. He's someone I'd like to get a drink with one day.

Even though it's not my taste or the taste of many, in the name of acceptance, I'm fine with your choice to have the big splashy intro screen for your version. But the fact that you want to ensure it stays there out of spitefulness toward future works that don't align with your ideals? I hope you reconsider your thinking.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 21, 2021, 03:34:31 am
I'm philologist.
I have been my whole life studying languages, including English (but not only English). But I'm not native. That means I'm probably not so qualified for making a professional translation to English (I may sound 'foreigner' at some moment, without noticing), but I am for playing and understanding well an English translation, and noticing if it's good or not. I think my knowledge about English grammar is enough for noticing that, even though I'm not familiar with some idioms, because I've never lived in an English-speaking country. The same way someone may know Latin without practicing its speaking. He won't maybe produce authentic material in Latin like Cicero, but he can understand and translate Cicero very well, appreciate its quality, and even notice mistakes in handscript copies. That's called "Philology".

Do you or your group have a similar knowledge of Japanese language, by the way?
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 21, 2021, 03:48:55 am
Look--I don't consider the English script to be an objectively bad one. I've played through a hundred translations (fan & official) that are worse. I trust that you can tell the difference between an English script that is of a decent quality level versus one that isn't. And I also trust that your knowledge of grammar is probably better than a lot of native English speakers.

But language isn't just about rules--it's about feeling. The abstract connotations of words, the subtleties of expression and phrasing, all those things add nuance and color to writing in a way that is very difficult for all but the most immersed non-native speakers to completely catch hold of. Not to boast, but I think I have a particularly strong sense for those things, and there are a lot of scripts that would be considered "decent" quality that I have a very hard time enjoying because of those subtle kind of issues.

With the work I'm involved in, I play through the games with my finished scripts about 4 or 5 times, making extremely subtle changes to improve what I perceive to be the "naturalness" of the language. I agonize over this kind of revision process, while fully aware that 98% of the people who play with them will neither notice nor care about these subtle improvements. They would have been just as happy with an earlier rendition of the script that was "good enough" to the average person. Back when the RPGOne script came out, there were so many important Japanese games that had yet to be translated to English. Teams back then--perhaps rightfully--took a "good enough" approach to their work, lest they fall into the quagmire of perfectionism that causes one to spend years working on single projects.

I happen to have a different temperament, and I think that a few of the fans of our work have caught that about what we do and appreciate it. People have repeatedly asked us: "When are you doing the SNES version of DQI&II?"

I think that it's important for you to accept that my perspective is different than  your perspective, and that doesn't have to put us at odds against each other.

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The same way someone may know Latin without practicing its speaking. He won't maybe produce authentic material in Latin like Cicero, but he can understand and translate Cicero very well, appreciate its quality, and even notice mistakes in handscript copies. That's called "Philology".

Do you or your group have a similar knowledge of Japanese language, by the way?
nejimakipiyo is *this person* in our group. They are a very good translator and bring a lot to the table.

But the fact that they are not a native Japanese person means that they will occasionally miss certain things or get confused by obscure expressions. It's frequently me who notices that the result in English feels ever so slightly wrong. Then we have dattebayo, who is a Japanese native, review the matter. He will help us navigate the subtle elements that only a native Japanese person would have generally caught. Usually when there is a matter that requires him, I go and check how other fan and official translations handled the item, and generally there were problems. For the fan translations of DQI&II & especially III, I witnessed a lot of literal renderings of expressions done in a way that missed the intent. I gave you a couple examples in a prior message, but there were many more.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 21, 2021, 04:14:35 am
It's not bad, RPGOne's script, admit it. And it does make me feel. It makes me feel I'm in some kind of Late Middle Ages or in some kind of Shakespearian era; not very exagerated, though. Here they didn't write the Thou's and Thee's (in the NES official version they overuse them; they never use You or Ye singular for polite situations or courtesy as it happened in Shakespearian English, what shows a stereotyped way of archaic English; RPGOne's translation doesn't do that, it's far from that, actually).

I think you are being too perfectionist.
However, I understand you, I'm perfectionist too with my own translations. I do exactly what you are saying.
But I think RPGOne's script is not so scarce of linguistic sophistication to do him the same... after 20 years... If it was a pidgin translation, or even a shoddy one, in proper English, but with poor vocabulary (like the Spanish translation of DQ1+2 made by a Chilean I found) I would completely agree you, but I don't see RPGOne's translation is poor in vocabulary. There's something about redoing his job that makes me feel bad, man! As if I was stealing a lollypop to a child or something. That's not good! I feel pity (or sadness, I don't know how to describe). I feel it's an injustice.
He is even dead!

But okay, put me examples of RPGOne's dialogs and the way you'd had translated them, with their Japanese original counterpart, to see if it's true this oldie work needs to be redone.
I need to see something objective!

I accept your perspective is different, of course! It's obvious it is.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Red Soul on June 21, 2021, 04:45:24 am
I think you are misunderstanding, Rod.
Rewriting a script doesn't mean in the slightest that there is any level of disrespect for the original work, but time passes, standards change, and people are also different.

I am a purist when it comes to the script. The closer it can be to the source, the better; others might not agree, and that is fine too. Humans are fallible creatures though, and if anyone held perfect knowledge about any subject at all, they'd be nearing godlike status, but none of us are there yet.

However, that doesn't mean people shouldn't try to improve the things they love and ultimately patches are very much a result of personal or collective effort. Some will appreciate it, some won't.

I understand your sentiment though; you feel it's not ethically valid to modify the script due to the passing of RPGONE.

Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 21, 2021, 05:09:45 am
Not only the "passing", the script is okay. If it's not like that (made up translations for example), let's demonstrate it.

There is no problem to improve things when they really need to. Yesterday I improved that "Ball of Light" thing (it's very few anyway, but if we start like this, changing little things, we fall into endless perfectionism about something that WAS released like that! That's the historical work, and it's good).

What worries me is if it's intellectually honest to redo that translation.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 21, 2021, 05:10:33 am
It's not bad, RPGOne's script, admit it.
I already did. It's much better than the DQIII SNES translation--I'll certainly say that. :laugh:

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And it does make me feel. It makes me feel I'm in some kind of Late Middle Ages or in some kind of Shakespearian era; not very exagerated, though. Here they didn't write the Thou's and Thee's (in the NES official version they overuse them; they never use You or Ye singular for polite situations or courtesy as it happened in Shakespearian English, what shows a stereotyped way of archaic English; RPGOne's translation doesn't do that, it's far from that, actually).
I'm not sure where you pick this up. RPGOne's script strikes me as pretty contemporary in its language approach, as it should be if the objective is to be faithful to the Japanese. The Japanese game is almost completely written in standard style, not medieval / archaic.

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There's something about redoing his job that makes me feel bad, man! As if I was stealing a lollypop to a child or something. That's not good! I feel pity (or sadness, I don't know how to describe). I feel it's an injustice.
He is even dead!
Ok, that last quip even has me feeling a little bad now.  :'(

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But okay, put me examples of RPGOne's dialogs and the way you'd had translated them, with its Japanese original counterpart, to see if it's true that oldie work needs to be redone.
I need to see something objective!
I've frequently lamented to nejimakipiyo that we should have kept a tight account of every error we uncover and fix in every other version, because, obviously, we were going to be questioned and doubted at every turn by those who are fiercely loyal to the near perfection of this version or that version.

I already gave you two examples of errors. Either missing (or censoring) the scandalous Inn text with the princess in DQ1 & the line about Hargon himself growing enormous (instead of what should be his ego) in DQ2. When I recently played through DQ1 for bugs, I ignored nearly all the NPC text. I just spent a few minutes visiting a few towns quickly. A few observations: yes, the writing in general is pretty decent. Also, the translation of enemy & item names is pretty decent, but I did pick up on a few problems quickly. "Token of Roto." The underlying Japanese word could mean token or emblem. I think it could be agreed that emblem makes more sense in English for what that item is. Also, the enemy name, "Meda", which they left untranslated--probably not knowing what to do with it. At first glance, it's a nonsense word in Japanese, but a closer look reveals that "Medama" is the Japanese word for "eyeball", and the eye is probably the most prominent feature of that creature. Our translation, "Eyeba", actually translates the word in an equivalent manner (eyeball truncated). Other issues: they translated the blue colored dragon as "Kiss Dragon", which is both awkward and incorrect. That Japanese word is an odd one, but the options would seem to be Keith or Kith. We went with Kith. One last thing: they refer to the shrines as monoliths; I'm not sure why. The meaning of that Japanese word is pretty clear.

I'll promise you one thing. If we ever do publish a retranslation (or possibly merely a revision) of this game's script, we will do so with utmost respect to the RPGOne team, as we are all indebted to them for their labor and, as you say, the good job they did, all things considered. That respect will be made loud and clear in the way that we publish. I'll probably even say that the version we create is not intended to supersede or eclipse that which came before, but to offer an alternative reading, and one that's in line with our past work and ideals.

And for the record, I won't be saying all that about the current DQ3 SFC English script. That thing is a straight up hot mess.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 21, 2021, 05:42:44 am
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I'm not sure where you pick this up. RPGOne's script strikes me as pretty contemporary in its language approach

Yes, it's modern English, but it has a kind of oldie taste in many rethorical resources it uses.
I'm not intending it uses renaissance grammar nor conjugations.
But that was one of your points to state this needs to be redone! "It's too archaic, and it should not be." Or that I understood.

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I already did. It's much better than the DQIII SNES translation--I'll certainly say that. :laugh:
I'm translating that one to Spanish and I find it very professional and good too. You want to redo that too?

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Either missing (or censoring) the scandalous Inn text with the princess in DQ1 & the line about Hargon himself growing enormous

And for that you have to redo the whole thing? Just fix those little things and let's update. If you want I include them in the next update.
Are you sure Token of Roto is a wrong translation? I understand it referes to some kind of medal, signal, or shield. Not much difference there among Token and Emblem. And as someone already told you everybody knows it like Token of Roto in the SNES version so far, it appears like that in all the walkthroughs for the SNES version, and so on. I have many problems with people when I try to change standardized names. If for example I try to replace, in FF6, CYAN by CAYENNE, or KEFKA by CEFCA, people eat me. It's not possible to do that anymore once people have been decades playing like this. You can't appear and change TERRA to TINA, it doesn't matter how the original was. You can't change Esper to Genjuu or to Phantom Beast, nor even to "Djinn".

If everybody drives by right you can't drive by left (unless you're in Britain, then you have to adapt to left, and can't go by right).

I agree with Meda and Kiss Dragon. Those things I fixed them in my Spanish translation, too. I include them if you want. They're minor changes that fix some obvious mistake.

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I'll promise you one thing. If we ever do publish a retranslation (or possibly merely a revision) of this game's script, we will do so with utmost respect to the RPGOne team, as we are all indebted to them for their labor and, as you say, the good job they did, all things considered. That respect will be made loud and clear in the way that we publish. I'll probably even say that the version we create is not intended to supersede or eclipse that which came before, but to offer an alternative reading, and one that's in line with our past work and ideals.

Okay.


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And for the record, I won't be saying all that about the current DQ3 SFC English script. That thing is a straight up hot mess.

You want to change everything! Lol.

Why don't you use that energy for translating from Japanese to English new things?
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: JKPhage on June 21, 2021, 06:25:30 am
A troll why?
I think everything I've said so far is reasonable.
I've even offered solutions (like removing the spinning).

LOLOLOLOLOLOL.

How may this poor splash screen bite you?

This was literally your first response to people saying they didn't like the splash screen. When I pointed out that you had a bad attitude in response to it, you responded with this:

*LOLOLOLOL*.

Whatever you've said since, you came out of the gate acting like a troll and basically gave everyone the impression of not caring at all what they say. When people kept explaining to you why the intro was annoying, unnecessary and incredibly undesirable, you kept digging your heels in an refusing to accept their reasoning. Even in the most recent response where I mentioned that it could potentially cause seizures for people with epilepsy, you laughed at the idea that it could be dangerous. If there is any bad attitude towards you, it's your own fault for having a bad attitude towards everyone to begin with. Your attitude is piss-poor and instead of just accepting that people don't care for your decisions, you've basically fought against changing it through some misguided notion that adding a translator/hacker credit to a title screen is "disrespectful" to the game when practically every other hacker does the same and nobody finds it offensive or bothersome, but a spinning rainbow-vomit holdover from an incredibly obnoxious era of game dumping is somehow less offensive.

You also tried to disparage the alternative patch offered because *one* person had an error that they posted about, which I have not encountered using the same patch and nobody else has mentioned having. Sorry to tell you, but it's 100% a better version than you offered. I might be willing to give you a little slack if you hadn't spent the entire discussion pushing back against any criticism, trying to invalidate any opinions that don't line up with yours and disparaging other translators/hackers. You put me off of your own patch entirely because of your attitude. The fact that there was a better option given is just a bonus.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Cyneprepou4uk on June 21, 2021, 06:27:10 am
(https://vk.com/sticker/1-2458-512-9)
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Red Soul on June 21, 2021, 06:41:04 am
Are you sure Token of Roto is a wrong translation? I understand it referes to some kind of medal, signal, or shield. Not much difference there among Token and Emblem. And as someone already told you everybody knows it like Token of Roto in the SNES version so far, it appears like that in all the walkthroughs for the SNES version, and so on. I have many problems of people when I try to change standardized names. If for example I try to replace, in FF6, CYAN by CAYENNE, or KEFKA by CEFCA, people it me. It's not possible to do that anymore once people have been decades playing like this. You can't appear and change TERRA to TINA, it doesn't matter how the original was. You can't change Esper to Genjuu or to Phantom Beast, nor even to "Djinn".

I understand what you mean, there, but I don't agree. Of course one can do it; being used to something doesn't mean the original script and meanings are invalidated. Terra is Tina originally and nothing can change that. Localization is important but does not supersede the original script.

Let me give you another example. Frog's sword (that once belonged to Cyrus) is called Masamune in the localized script for Chrono Trigger. Is that how it is usually named? yes. Are people used to it? yes. Is that correct? no, because it's called Grandleon in the original script. The Masamune was just a silly insert by the translator.

I find such pointless changes appaling, and while it doesn't exactly fit precisely in the scenario here, I'm just illustrating why initiatives like Chicken Knife's are so important. If people would rather have whatever script was originally localized, they are free to do so, but that's not the only valid position.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 21, 2021, 06:58:10 am
Quote from: JKPhage
This was literally your first response to people saying they didn't like the splash screen.
Deserved.

Quote from: Red Soul
Terra is Tina originally and nothing can change that.

Yes. Nothing can change TERRA was TINA, but TERRA improved it. Unless you prefere to play reminding "Tina Turner". Come on, don't compare TERRA, so enigmatic, so mystic name, with... "TINA", that sounds to a pop star. Who preferes that? Only in Japan where Tina doesn't have those silly pop-starry connotations.

Grandleon is very beautiful, though.
But Magus, it's much better than... "Mao" (Tse Tung, LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. Mao Tse Tung! Do you imagine playing that way? It's impossible. There is even a bear trademark that is "Mahou". There is "LMAO". There are many things: no, it's impossible to restore Magus to Mao after having been improved to something so beautiful and Middle Ages-like as "Magus" is, that sounds to a mix of Latin and the Arabic or Persian word "Majūs"; it sounds to sorcery!).

Another example: Schala and... Sara! LOLOLOLOLOL. It seems my neighbour! 10000 years ago there is Sara? How come?

Some localizations of Woolsey were made up. But others objectively improved.

If everybody drives in a country by right, you can't drive by left! You need to adapt and be normal!

But Grandleon is very beautiful, I agree. Nobody knows what it is but it's beautiful.

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If people would rather have whatever script was originally shipped, they are free to do so, but that's not the only valid position.

Okay, I get your point. But it's a pity he is not using that energy to translate new stuff with his Niponologist friend, and instead he wants to redo everything. Even DQ3! Oh, my...! @_@ What a sacrilege!!


Quote from: JKPhage
but a spinning rainbow-vomit holdover from an incredibly obnoxious era of game dumping
LOOOOOOOOOLOLOLOLOLOOOLOLOLOL.
JUAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAS xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
Jajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajajaja (Spanish laugh)

Why do you hate things so much? Lol. Calm down, man! Take it easy.
They're just games!
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 21, 2021, 07:03:31 am
Yes, I also don't understand the concept of taking a localization or translation and putting it on this elevated pedestal, acting like it is definitive and cannot / should not be altered and amended. That kind of adulation should be reserved for the original version in the original language. That's the definitive thing. That's what should be celebrated most vigorously. It's sad to me how little focus there is on Horii and his work through this whole discussion.

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Yes, it's modern English, but it has a kind of oldie taste in many rethorical resources it uses.
I'm not intending it uses renaissance grammar nor conjugations.
But that was one of your points to state this needs to be redone! "It's too archaic, and it should not be." Or that I understood.
This was some kind of misunderstanding. Undoing inauthentic medieval text was something I did with the NES versions.

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I'm translating that one to Spanish and I find it very professional and good too. You want to redo that too?
Yes. It reads badly most of the time, and it's full of errors. We will come up with some kind of lengthy example list eventually. PS, there were probably 20 times during our NES DQ3 translation where the original NES localization handled an expression or difficult line correctly and the SNES fan translation botched it. I'm sorry, but they didn't know Japanese very well.

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You want to change everything! Lol.

Why don't you use that energy for translating from Japanese to English new things?
Maybe one day, but my main interest is the Dragon Quest series. We ask a lot of the player by introducing innovations like a new and more faithful spell naming system, so in return, we want to provide a lot of DQ games for people to play with that system. Additionally, DQ is my favorite RPG series, and I want a version of most of those games to exist in English that pleases me. Wanting them to exist is why I started these projects, and if some people happen to enjoy them along the way, great.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: nejimakipiyo on June 21, 2021, 07:22:33 am
Okay, I get your point. But it's a pity he is not using that energy to translating new stuff with his Niponologist friend, and instead he wants to redo everything. Even DQ3! Oh, my...! @_@ What a sacrilege!!

Over the years of our friendship, Chicken Knife and I have spent hours upon hours discussing lines in Dragon Quest games for the simple reason that we are passionate about & love Yuji Horii's writing style. When we publish hacks to retranslate games from the ground up, we aren't just changing things for the hell of it. We are doing it because up to now, no faithful translation existed for these games. In every translation to date, both official and non-official, Horii's intent has been obscured by many things: censorship, mistranslations, overly stylized translations that depart a long way from the original text, removal of cultural and mythological references such as in monster names, and more.

We cannot just transfer our passion to another game series or untranslated games. We translate DQ because we care about it. The fact that it is Dragon Quest, that Horii's mind was deeply involved in the writing, is the crux of what makes it fun and interesting for us.

I believe our translations have a solid place and provide a new option for people to choose from, for those who are interested in reading a high-quality, authentic script.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 21, 2021, 07:32:50 am
Quote from:
no faithful translation existed for these games[...]
censorship, mistranslations, overly stylized translations that depart a long way from the original text, removal of cultural and mythological references such as in monster names, and more.

Wow.
Okay. Maybe you are right.
Can I see some examples of those, with Japanese and RPGone's text (and your alternative)?

Anyway, you both are talking in a way it seems I'm not letting you do this.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 21, 2021, 07:49:28 am
Wow.
Okay. Maybe you are right.
Can I see some examples of those, with Japanese and RPGone's text (and your alternative)?

Anyway, you both are talking in a way it seems I'm not letting you do this.
We will eventually get comparative example lists together, sooner rather than later hopefully. It would have value that extends beyond this particular discussion.

And as far as you letting or not letting us do this, well, it's not really about letting. My hope is that we would have your blessing and cooperation, because I wouldn't really want to use your bug fixes without permission, and we find the splash title screens unfitting for our projects in general. I suppose we could attempt to reinvent the wheel and fix the same things on our own. I personally spent several painful months working on fixing a few basic DQ3 NES bugs. It was a good learning experience, but I don't think we will ever be great hackers. Translation is our sweet spot, so when we have an opportunity to get some help on the hacking side, it is much appreciated. The fact that you want to continue fixing bugs on DQ3 and DQ6 SNES is a really awesome thing from our point of view, and it is certainly my hope that there can be an amicable understanding between us.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 21, 2021, 08:25:18 am
Okay, but look.
Can't you accept another kind of non-moving splash screen with a background image?
You really considere THAT intrusive something like that?

If the thing is so distorted and unfaithful like your Niponologist friend says you have my blessings, of course. I remove you the splash screen (if you have not done it by yourself already). But let me see some material about those distorsions so I can make myself an idea of the dimension of the problem. If the thing is serious I will help in whatever I can.
I could even use that for retranslating my own Spanish translation (even though you can't imagine how lazy I feel about that idea).
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: saldite on June 21, 2021, 08:42:23 am
I do think it's an interesting thought process of keeping things the same out of tradition or respect, and changing things to be more accurate to modern conventions. You'll see it even with official re-releases and remakes, where you have fans talking about how the original script was better due to having more character/liberties with the original translation, or even instances where the newer one will still keep certain retro lines for old fans (FF games like to do this quite a bit). Part of what I always thought was cool with romhacking patches was the idea of having the options for how you want to play (or, if you have the technical ability, to make the options you want to play). Especially with something like Dragon Quest/Warrior where you have old localized names, new localized names, different translations depending on how close to Japanese you want to get, etc, I'm all for more options even if they aren't ones I particularly want myself.

All that said, the most important thing is having a mostly bug-free experience regardless of how you want things to go, which is definitely a big plus (although, even there, you have some fans lamenting the loss of certain bugs/exploits).


 
Semi-related, @Rod, as a general "bug"-report, I think there are a few places in RPGOne's OG patch's naming got the wires crossed. I haven't checked the original one, but I know there are a few bits of text here or there still left in this one mixing up DW/DQ patch terminology. A good example from DQ1 is a line where they mention Princess "Gwaelin", but then a little bit later in the same line mention Princess "Laura" (as she's referred to in the rest of the game). Likewise, there was a part later in 2 where I got stuck due to not knowing what to do for the same reason. An NPC says something like "You need the Eye of Malroth to enter the castle" or something, in which "Eye of Malroth" is the DW name, but in-game the item is referred to as the "Statue of Evil". It wasn't until I started googling around that I realized the were both the same item. It might be good to fix these lines just to make sure the wires aren't getting crossed, especially with DQ2 where NPC hints for what to do next are a precious necessity (oh god are they ever precious).

That said, I played through all of 1 and 2's 1.00 to 1.03 patch (kept updating as releases came out) just fine on my SNES and didn't really notice any outstanding bugs or additional script mash ups. I know the equipment screen in 2 didn't properly layer the princess's name as a choice (i.e. when choosing who to equip, her name was hidden behind a window). My princess ended up named "Samantha", and there were a few text overflow issues as a result of the name being long, but definitely nothing major or gamebreaking. Thanks again for all of your hard work!
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: why3132456 on June 21, 2021, 08:52:38 am
I have a very deep knowledge of English grammar

Really? Well...
Quote
I'm philologist.
Do you mean "I'm a philologist"?
Quote
I have been my whole life studying languages
Do you mean "I have been studying languages my whole life"?
Quote
i am (qualified) for playing and understanding well an english translation
Do you mean "I am (qualified) for playing and understanding an English translation well"?
Quote
i may sound 'foreigner'
Do you mean "I may sound like a foreigner"?

I'm not normally inclined to be a grammar stick-in-the-mud, but if you're going to make such grandstanding claims as "I have been my whole life studying languages" and "I have a very deep knowledge of English grammar", perhaps consider not making such simple mistakes in your post. I could understand such errors if you admitted to being a non-native speaker with little experience (I was once a non-native speaker too), but as a translator, you might want to take more feedback.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 21, 2021, 09:01:03 am
Hello, friend.
Don't worry: I got aware of that Gwaelin thing (how celtic name, by the way! It seems Welsh or Irish) thanks to Lolpuddy31's useful reports, and I think it was fixed in 1.03 update.
About DQ vs DW terminology, I've seen this criterium was applied by RPGOne for names of places, but not for names of spells, and I'm respecting the terminology that just I found since it seems to be the most widely known in English-speaking countries thanks to old NES localizations.
Just Firebal has been fixed to Fireball.

But about objects I'm not sure what's being the criterium.
Is Eye of Malroth an item, or a place?

P.S.: where did that Samantha overflow happen?
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: saldite on June 21, 2021, 09:10:54 am
The Statue of Evil/Eye of Malroth is an object. Putting in spoilers for others just in case:
Spoiler:
Later in Dragon Quest II, you end up exploring a volcano area and collect an item that is needed to enter the last area of the game. In the NES release, the item you collect was referred to as "Eye of Malroth". In the GBC version, it's referred to as "Evil Statue", and "False Idol" in newer localizations. In this patch itself, the item is "Statue of Evil", but the NPC hint regarding it still calls it "Eye of Malroth", probably due to the orignal patch having split naming from the two different patches.

https://dragonquest.fandom.com/wiki/False_idol is where I found out they were the same item, just named differently depending on the translation.

I'll see if I can get you a screenshot later on for the Samantha issue. I know it mainly happened when casting some spells on the field (i.e. HealMore/HealAll).
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 21, 2021, 09:26:48 am
Okay, but look.
Can't you accept another kind of non-moving splash screen with a background image?
You really considere THAT intrusive something like that?
Our whole agenda is that of removing arbitrary alterations or additions by western sources, be that by localizers or hackers. We did maintain a few western improvements to the games which we felt brought genuine value, but even with those, I'm open to providing options to remove them down the road. We are not interested in maintaining alterations just for the sake of. We want a product that presents like an authentic release that could have been. A static screen won't cut it, unfortunately. We are more than happy to provide credits to any contributor, props on the publish page description, in the readme notes, etc.

Quote
If the thing is so distorted and unfaithful like your Niponologist friend says you have my blessings, of course. I remove you the splash screen (if you have not done it by yourself already). But let me see some material about those distorsions so I can make myself an idea of the dimension of the problem. If the thing is serious I will help in whatever I can.
I could even use that for retranslating my own Spanish translation (even though you can't imagine how lazy I feel about that idea).
I appreciate you taking translation integrity seriously and being open to exploring these matters. More to come.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 21, 2021, 10:48:19 am
Why3132456
Your point is silly. Somebody can know the grammar of a language, not having lived in the country, having accent and making inconscious mistakes when typing fast without noticing, due to his mother tongue interference or to just a little of dislexia (that becomes bigger in a foreign language).
For example:

consider not making such simple mistakes in your post.
Since when changing a little the order of adverbs and other peripheral elements in a sentence is a "grammar mistake" and a synonymous of not knowing the grammar of a language?
Those are matters of diction and style.* They are idiolectal elements of speech, typical of some foreigners, non-typical in native speakers.
You have read few barocque poetry!, there they tend to change the order in sentences much more, with hiperbaton.


Quote from: why3132456
if you admitted to being a non-native speaker
I do in that post you are quoting. Look:
Quote from: RodMerida
I have been my whole life studying languages, including English (but not only English). But I'm not native.
And you can be native or non-native to a place or country (like adjetive). You don't necessarily need to be or not be a native (like noun).

Quote from: RodMerida
That means I'm probably not so qualified for making a professional translation to English (I may sound 'foreigner' at some moment, without noticing)
Where is the pretending?
Did you notice the quotes in here, by the way?
It's not the same to sound like a foreigner (noun) than to sound 'foreigner' (that means your speech sounds in a foreign way).

Let's go on with the nonsense:
but as a translator, you might want to take more feedback.

That's why I don't make translation to English, but FROM English to my own native language, Spanish.
And in this post, too:
That means I'm probably not so qualified for making a professional translation to English
For being an "ex non-native" you have some lack of comprehensive reading.


if you admitted to being a non-native speaker with little experience (I was once a non-native speaker too)
"If you amitted to being"? That's a grammar mistake. It's very native from your part. Thanks for enlightening me.


Usually I would say this is the last time I do any patch for the English-speaking community. Last time I port anything from Spanish to English. But then I remind you are not 'native'. You're just a wannabe.


(For respect to other people, I think it's enough with falacia ad hominem and metalinguistic off-topics).


June 21, 2021, 01:55:39 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Our whole agenda is that of removing arbitrary alterations or additions by western sources, be that by localizers or hackers. We did maintain a few western improvements to the games which we felt brought genuine value, but even with those, I'm open to providing options to remove them down the road. We are not interested in maintaining alterations just for the sake of. We want a product that presents like an authentic release that could have been. A static screen won't cut it, unfortunately. We are more than happy to provide credits to any contributor, props on the publish page description, in the readme notes, etc.
I appreciate you taking translation integrity seriously and being open to exploring these matters. More to come.

Chicken Knife. It's not the same inside the ROM than in a Readme. Because the Readme can be easily erased, removed or lost, or won't be there if somebody records the game in a cartridge, but inside the ROM it's called to be conserved.
Something inside the ROM that is not too invasive with the game is a warranty of immortalizing it.
That's why splash screens are important.

They are not invasive with the game and you don't need to wait until final ending credits after completing the game for being known, so everybody will see who made it.

Imagine, with so many webpages that may take the patched ROM and put it for download, after decades who will remind who was there in the readme? Few people.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: svenge on June 21, 2021, 02:00:53 pm
Last time I port anything from Spanish to English. But then I remind you are not 'native'. You're just an anglosaxon newbie.


(For respect to other people, I think it's enough with falacia ad hominem and metalinguistic off-topics).

I find it amusing when your sort tries wielding "anxglosaxon" [sic] as an insult.  At least we Anglo-Saxons haven't spent the last 300+ years on a long terminal decline to geopolitical and cultural irrelevance.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 21, 2021, 02:07:14 pm
I find it amusing when your sort tries wielding "anxglosaxon" [sic] as an insult.  At least we Anglo-Saxons haven't spent the last 300+ years on a long terminal decline to geopolitical and cultural irrelevance.

The "insult" here was not anglosaxon, was "newbie". Lol. Wanting to pretend to be something you are not, I don't know why, and trying to ridiculize others for not sounding like a native in a foreign language.
You understood me reversed.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: goldenband on June 21, 2021, 03:25:21 pm
What are those DQ3 bugs that you say, by the way? That interests me. Could you list them to me?

On DQ3, the big one is a save issue if you save with somebody other than the hero in the first party slot. It's a pretty bug-free patch overall, but I know I got hit by that one on accident myself and it killed my progress at the time I played it. You can see it in action here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvcRr8uN2sQ The readme mentions something with spellnames and text overflows, but the save one is the big one I ran into (and pretty easy to avoid if you know about it).

Great to see that a conversation about DQ3 is happening! Yes, that save bug is pretty lethal, and easy to avoid but also easy to trigger. Besides the additional stuff mentioned in the README, there are scattered reports of other bugs but it's not always clear whether people are commenting on the 1.1 version or an earlier patch.

I'd forgotten that the Dragon Quest VI patch was flat-out unfinished!
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: saldite on June 21, 2021, 03:51:04 pm
I'd forgotten that the Dragon Quest VI patch was flat-out unfinished!
Yeah, that one's really unfortunate. I lack the skills myself to tackle any project like that, but would definitely love to see it. It seems like it's been left at the wayside over time after the DS version came out, which is a shame as the SNES version definitely has its own charms and differences with many still claiming it's the best one due to being an incredibly pretty SNES game, the OST differences, monster catching mechanics, etc. It's finishable from beginning to end on SNES, but not fully polished.

Having a bug-fixed version with even simple translations for the unfinished/dummied stuff would be really dope.

I remember Tom on twitter mentioned a possible interest in hitting it at some point with DDS, but I get the impression that's up in the air.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Red Soul on June 21, 2021, 04:27:05 pm
Yes. Nothing can change TERRA was TINA, but TERRA improved it. Unless you prefere to play reminding "Tina Turner". Come on, don't compare TERRA, so enigmatic, so mystic name, with... "TINA", that sounds to a pop star. Who preferes that? Only in Japan where Tina doesn't have those silly pop-starry connotations.

They may have those connotatons in the west, but that's just happenstance. Again, I'm just saying accuracy to source is important, whether we like it or not. Saying "Terra" is an improvment is ultimately just a matter of opinion, even though I agree with you in this case. Sabin was Mash, and while I don't like it (mashed potatoes?) is still the most accurate to source name.


Grandleon is very beautiful, though.

Yes. Masamune is also distincitvely Japanese. If the localizer wanted to insert a Masamune in the script, at least make it one of Chrono's swords, instead.

But Magus, it's much better than... "Mao" (Tse Tung, LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. Mao Tse Tung! Do you imagine playing that way? It's impossible. There is even a bear trademark that is "Mahou". There is "LMAO". There are many things: no, it's impossible to restore Magus to Mao after having been improved to something so beautiful and Middle Ages-like as "Magus" is, that sounds to a mix of Latin and the Arabic or Persian word "Majūs"; it sounds to sorcery!).

Maoh is a title, Demon Lord, which ties in perfectly to what the demons turned him into; a figure of leadership. Technically everyone in the party except Robo is a "magus" a student and user of magic after Spekkio's blesing, so it's much less unique.
Again, it's not "impossible" to revert the changes, if one is going for script accuracy it is possible and desirable, and while you do give some etimological basis to support your prefernce for Magus as a moniker, you also, at the same time, ridicule the original script with comparisons that don't make any sense to me.

Another example: Schala and... Sara! LOLOLOLOLOL. It seems my neighbour! 10000 years ago there is Sara? How come?

I do prefer Schala, but again, understand that the script wasn't written with western naming averages in mind. Sara is most likely uncommon in Japan, even if it exists at all, hence why it was chosen.

If everybody drives in a country by right, you can't drive by left! You need to adapt and be normal!

I can't drive on whatever lane I want in the west, but if I went to Japan I'd need to change lanes; same thing.
Translating for accuracy is about having the intended experience, not one modified by localizers due to censorship, lack of
time, space in the ROM, the need for silly jokes or whatever consideration.

I'm not trying to be combative here, just saying that localizations are important, but efforts for patches that preserve the original naming conventions and creators' intents also are.

Also for the others in the thread, I'm sorry for the subject derrail. I know it's a DQ thread. I'll try to stop using CT to make my point. Also Rod, thanks for lending an ear.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 21, 2021, 04:30:49 pm
Chicken Knife. It's not the same inside the ROM than in a Readme. Because the Readme can be easily erased, removed or lost, or won't be there if somebody records the game in a cartridge, but inside the ROM it's called to be conserved.
Something inside the ROM that is not too invasive with the game is a warranty of immortalizing it.
That's why splash screens are important.

They are not invasive with the game and you don't need to wait until final ending credits after completing the game for being known, so everybody will see who made it.

Imagine, with so many webpages that may take the patched ROM and put it for download, after decades who will remind who was there in the readme? Few people.
Depending on how invested a person is in this hobby of ours, I can see the appeal of digital fingerprints. In a way, it's better than a grave stone, since no one ever visits a grave after some years have passed. I'd like to believe that RHDN will be around forever, but who really knows?

There are, however, a few problems to consider with splash screens:

1. They have fallen out of favor with a sizable population in this community. The response to yours is testimony (though in fairness, the spinning graphic probably had something to do with it.)

2. They usually aesthetically clash with the art design of the rest of the game. I won't name names, but I can think of so many over the years where the art would make me wince every time I see it.

3. As I said before, they break the illusion of an officially released product. Perhaps they even inflame the negative sentiment that many harbor toward fan projects / hacks in general.

4. No matter how much you work to imbed them in the code of the game, due to my first point, someone is probably going to eventually disable it anyway.

What about working with the credits of the game itself? As far as a means of achieving perpetuity, I think it's more subtle, tactful, and less likely to inspire dissent. I haven't done it personally, but I've never been bothered by seeing it. And truthfully, your point about leaving a mark is compelling to me. We've tended to work with restoring localized versions of western releases rather than translating directly from the Japanese release, so it would be reasonable to wipe out the localization team's names, as we wiped out most of what they did anyway. Working with the Japanese credits might require a bit more creativity. In any case, I'd like to hear your thoughts on the idea.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Red Soul on June 21, 2021, 04:43:32 pm
What about working with the credits of the game itself? As far as a means of achieving perpetuity, I think it's more subtle, tactful, and less likely to inspire dissent. I haven't done it personally, but I've never been bothered by seeing it. And truthfully, your point about leaving a mark is compelling to me. We've tended to work with restoring localized versions of western releases rather than translating directly from the Japanese release, so it would be reasonable to wipe out the localization team's names, as we wiped out most of what they did anyway. Working with the Japanese credits might require a bit more creativity. In any case, I'd like to hear your thoughts on the idea.

I personally think this is the most elegant way to do it. Credit is given where it's due without truly altering the presentation. Fansubbers tend to use this approach and it's a nice solution, I think.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 21, 2021, 04:52:20 pm
I would agree with you with a Game like Blackthorne, for example, or like Chrono Trigger. My Spanish translation of Blackthorne has no splash screen. Chrono Trigger's one the same.

Haha. That spinning thing was an eccentricity of mine, I know. I was amazed by demoscene's nostalgia. It can be stopped and read by holding A-button anyway.

Quote from: Red Soul

I personally think this is the most elegant way to do it. Credit is given where it's due without truly altering the presentation.

They don't appear until the very end in this game. And not everybody who plays It will complete it. Also, I have other projects in my webpage and want to attract users to them, so they don't remain useless.

There is already my name/Crackowia's in the credits of DQ1+2, but I didn't want to erase RPGone's people, and that way my betatester, Vicks Dg, doesn't fit.

Anyway I have improved the thing. You'll see it in next update.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 21, 2021, 04:58:57 pm
There is already my name/Crackowia's in the credits of DQ1+2, but I didn't want to erase RPGone's people, and that way my betatester, Vicks Dg, doesn't fit.

Anyway I have improved the thing. You'll see it in next update.
I think that whatever you want to do for projects that are primarily yours is fine. But to impose those personal requirements when you are a contributor to project that is primarily someone else's (in the hypothetical case of our group doing a translation), I think that's getting a little unreasonable.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 21, 2021, 05:00:48 pm
I was talking about this patch, man.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: goldenband on June 21, 2021, 05:21:17 pm
Yeah, that one's really unfortunate. I lack the skills myself to tackle any project like that, but would definitely love to see it. It seems like it's been left at the wayside over time after the DS version came out, which is a shame as the SNES version definitely has its own charms and differences with many still claiming it's the best one due to being an incredibly pretty SNES game, the OST differences, monster catching mechanics, etc. It's finishable from beginning to end on SNES, but not fully polished.

Having a bug-fixed version with even simple translations for the unfinished/dummied stuff would be really dope.

I remember Tom on twitter mentioned a possible interest in hitting it at some point with DDS, but I get the impression that's up in the air.

I agree! I've seen a few comments along the lines of "just play the DS version", which seems to assume that the SNES/SFC release doesn't have anything unique to offer -- a bold claim if the person hasn't verified that themselves. And of course, some of us just don't own a DS and aren't interested in emulating one; speaking for myself, I mostly stick to older hardware, as that's the era and style of gaming I love and I enjoy focusing on specific console libraries.

By the way there's a little bit of illuminating information about the state of DQ6 patches in this thread from 2011 (https://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php?topic=13271.0), which starts to get flamey but still is useful. I also link it because Ademos's very droll one-liner -- "Though I find the anthropology here compelling" -- got a rare, actual, real-life LOL from me when I read it.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Red Soul on June 21, 2021, 05:33:27 pm
I agree! I've seen a few comments along the lines of "just play the DS version", which seems to assume that the SNES/SFC release doesn't have anything unique to offer -- a bold claim if the person hasn't verified that themselves. And of course, some of us just don't own a DS and aren't interested in emulating one; speaking for myself, I mostly stick to older hardware, as that's the era and style of gaming I love and I enjoy focusing on specific console libraries.

I played DQ5 SNES quite a bit, but not DQ6.
I'm curious, what are some of the unique aspects of the SNES version?
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 21, 2021, 05:49:21 pm
I played DQ5 SNES quite a bit, but not DQ6.
I'm curious, what are some of the unique aspects of the SNES version?
For starters, it has a refreshingly unique and gorgeous art style, rather than being the what... 5th game rehashing the DQVII graphics engine. I get tired of looking at those same art assets in game after game.

Beyond that, while the other DS versions generally featured nothing but additions to the gameplay, the DS version of DQ6 actually chopped one of the main features: the ability to recruit something like 20 different monsters as party members.

The only big loss for some people is party chat being missing. I suppose that's something, but Horii didn't write that party chat text, unlike all the text in the original game. I personally don't consider it a big loss.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: KingMike on June 21, 2021, 05:51:43 pm
Everyone stop making personal attacks or this thread will be locked.

Discuss the translation itself only.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 21, 2021, 05:54:42 pm
Everyone stop making personal attacks or this thread will be locked.

Thank you.

June 21, 2021, 06:44:55 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
New patch 1.03c with new static splash screen and new fixings ready! At last! Nobody will have to suffer anymore because of the spinning screen.
It's been sent to the submitting queue, but it can be meanwhile got from here:
http://crackowia.gq/dqust1n2.html
(More information about such fixings in the readme or the submitting queue).
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Red Soul on June 21, 2021, 07:09:36 pm
Thank you.

June 21, 2021, 06:44:55 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
New patch 1.03c with new static splash screen and new fixings ready! At last! Nobody will have to suffer anymore because of the spinning screen.
It's been sent to the submitting queue, but it can be meanwhile got from here:
http://crackowia.gq/dqust1n2.html
(More information about such fixings in the readme or the submitting queue).

I'll take a look, thanks for your hard work.

Edit: I think this is excellent, personally.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: saldite on June 21, 2021, 07:33:53 pm
@Rod, regarding DQ3's patch again, I just noticed something pretty obvious right at the beginning: The yes/no prompts don't lead to the correct responses during the personality questions.

The most obvious one was the Queen's scenario, where the Yes response plays the "no" dialogue from the king and vise versa, even though the yes/no choice applies as it normally should. I know it's not directly related to your own patch for 1+2, but if you ever go onto do 3, I'd really recommend double checking the whole personality quiz just to make sure the responses are correct (even if you're just planning on a Spanish translation).
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Piotyr on June 21, 2021, 07:50:51 pm
Remember Rod that many people are grateful for your work and the rude people are a vocal minority.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 21, 2021, 08:22:59 pm
I was talking about this patch, man.
Sounds good. With that said, along with the generally more positive course of our recent discussion, it sounds like there is a basis for cooperation. Nejimakipiyo and I happen to feel inspired by your challenge that we lay out a thorough list of problematic lines along with our own proposed renderings. We might even go as far as to include official translation samples as well if our time warrants.

It would seem that the only efficient way for us to catalogue translation issues like this when we haven't directly worked on the SFC version of DQI&II is to actually work on the SFC version of DQI&II. The new script would be heavily informed by our NES scripts of DQI & DQII, but vetted by a review of the Japanese SFC script.

This probably goes without saying, but if we do this and produce a substantial list of issues, I think that the expectation would be that you are not going to go back and use that information to try to fix everything in the RPGOne translation. If we invest the time and energy into a thorough translation effort and make a compelling case for its value, we would want to see the fruit of that labor manifested in our own unique script.

It's funny--we were previously torn between two other DQ games that we wanted to work on next. But as is usually the case when I'm torn between two things, I end up going with a third.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Red Soul on June 21, 2021, 10:25:21 pm
It would seem that the only efficient way for us to catalogue translation issues like this when we haven't directly worked on the SFC version of DQI&II is to actually work on the SFC version of DQI&II. The new script would be heavily informed by our NES scripts of DQI & DQII, but vetted by a review of the Japanese SFC script.

Totally stoked at the prospect of this. In an ideal world, 3, 5 and 6 would get a similar layer of polish too.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 22, 2021, 03:33:46 am
@Rod, regarding DQ3's patch again, I just noticed something pretty obvious right at the beginning: The yes/no prompts don't lead to the correct responses during the personality questions.

The most obvious one was the Queen's scenario, where the Yes response plays the "no" dialogue from the king and vise versa, even though the yes/no choice applies as it normally should. I know it's not directly related to your own patch for 1+2, but if you ever go onto do 3, I'd really recommend double checking the whole personality quiz just to make sure the responses are correct (even if you're just planning on a Spanish translation).

I'm doing the Spanish translation, but if something like that is happening I can't flee from fixing it. Once fixed, I have no problem to port it to the current English text.

Would you say that happens only with the Queen's intro test, or in whatever Yes/No question of the personality quiz? If it did, it would be a very serious and decisive mistake, that is keeping people in ignorance.

June 22, 2021, 03:34:18 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Remember Rod that many people are grateful for your work and the rude people are a vocal minority.

Thank you. ^_^. You give me hope.

June 22, 2021, 04:05:55 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
It would seem that the only efficient way for us to catalogue translation issues like this when we haven't directly worked on the SFC version of DQI&II is to actually work on the SFC version of DQI&II.

Of course. Notice that the text script in NES Dragon Warrior's I and II, has many differences with the SNES RPGone's Dragon Quest I&II script, even though the general idea of events and contents is the same. But the game experience is not the same. And those differences come from the Japanese script itself, and the fact that both versions use different engines, and different dialog windows formats.

That's why I'm seriously considering porting my translation to Dragon Warriors' ones (regarding those differences), in the moment I have more time.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: saldite on June 22, 2021, 08:12:13 am
I'm doing the Spanish translation, but if something like that is happening I can't flee from fixing it. Once fixed, I have no problem to port it to the current English text.

Would you say that happens only with the Queen's intro test, or in whatever Yes/No question of the personality quiz? If it did, it would be a very serious and decisive mistake, that is keeping people in ignorance.

It seems like it's only the personality scenarios (at least so far) where its really an issue. From what I could tell with testing the main personality questions, those seem to lead to the right locations Yes/No-wise.

Technically, the scenarios also lead to the correct location Yes/No-wise, but the dialogue itself is switched ("No" dialogue for "Yes" answers).
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 22, 2021, 09:12:22 am
That's why I'm seriously considering porting my translation to Dragon Warriors' ones (regarding those differences), in the moment I have more time.
If you do get to it and want to verify the differences against a Japanese faithful English script, you will not find a more accurate and readable one than ours.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: aqualung on June 22, 2021, 09:17:05 am
It seems like it's only the personality scenarios (at least so far) where its really an issue. From what I could tell with testing the main personality questions, those seem to lead to the right locations Yes/No-wise.

Technically, the scenarios also lead to the correct location Yes/No-wise, but the dialogue itself is switched ("No" dialogue for "Yes" answers).

I suppose this has to be with that peculiarity in Japanese language of sometimes using yes and no in an almost opposite way as many Western languages. It's something we were warned at the language school when I was studying Japanese.

For instance, if I understood the nuance correctly:

-Isn't Marc a student?

we'd say:
-no (he isn't)

Jp people say:
- yes. (yes, it's true what you say about Marc not being an student)
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 22, 2021, 09:50:42 am
I suppose this has to be with that peculiarity in Japanese language of sometimes using yes and no in an almost opposite way as many Western languages. It's something we were warned at the language school when I was studying Japanese.

For instance, if I understood the nuance correctly:

-Isn't Marc a student?

we'd say:
-no (he isn't)

Jp people say:
- yes. (yes, it's true what you say about Marc not being an student)
nejimakipiyo would be the one to respond to this specifically, but it wouldn't surprise me, considering what my group frequently observed with the DQ Translations DQ3 script. They would translate in a way that was hyper literal, with lacking regard to context and lacking understanding of Japanese expressions. The meaning would regularly get lost as a result of their approach. When handling those difficult kind of lines, the results were frequently awkward at best, or simply wrong at worst.

My suggestion to Rod is that he waits for our group to produce a DQ3 SFC translation before doing his Spanish one. Otherwise, he will have to be redoing a *lot* after we demonstrate the extent of the problems. We are not so slow with producing scripts, especially when our existing work on the NES versions will speed up the process significantly. If Rod doesn't want to wait, my suggestion is that he simultaneously looks at official scripts. They might have plenty of censorship, they might make excessive use of accents and puns, they might embellish the text in general, but the Japanese comprehension of the translators was pretty good.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 22, 2021, 10:26:09 am
with the DQ Translations DQ3 script. They would translate in a way that was hyper literal, with lacking regard to context and lacking understanding of Japanese expressions. The meaning would regularly get lost as a result of their approach.
I'm understanding everything very well.
And I'm beyond the half.

When handling those difficult kind of lines, the results were frequently awkward at best, or simply wrong at worst.
How exagerated. Lol
I'm finding a very professional work, man.

My suggestion to Rod is that he waits for our group to produce a DQ3 SFC translation before doing his Spanish one. Otherwise, he will have to be redoing a *lot* after we demonstrate the extent of the problems.
The remake is coming. After that almost nobody will play our stuff.
There's no time for that.

If Rod doesn't want to wait, my suggestion is that he simultaneously looks at official scripts.
I have it in an Excel file.
A friend has ripped it, hidden, from inside a Japanese modern version, that was unreleased outside Japan.
Maybe I'm the second person in the world that has that right now? Lol.

But for a matter of speed I'm just translating whatever I find in the DQTranslations's script and once I'm finished I'll review the Excel quickly, by comparing.

But the DQ3 script is really long.
I had to ask some help to another translator for accelerating, and even that way I'm suffering.

I hope DQ3 remake release won't be until 2022, or all this will be useless. Lol
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 22, 2021, 10:50:34 am
I'm understanding everything very well.
And I'm beyond the half.
How exagerated. Lol
I'm finding a very professional work, man.
You will see. We are good at bringing things to light that people don't initially notice. Once you notice, it's very hard to not notice. On the other hand, we are far pickier and harsher than most on writing, so let's see what the result looks like to others.

Quote
The remake is coming. After that almost nobody will play our stuff.
There's no time for that.
Hah. I suppose this is true. But we make things first for our own pleasure, and second for others. And we enjoy the process tremendously. I'm planning to take my time and get it right, whatever the reception. But I understand and respect your focus on impact.

Quote
I have it in an Excel file.
A friend has ripped it, hidden, from inside a Japanese modern version, that was unreleased outside Japan.
Maybe I'm the second person in the world that has that right now? Lol.
I'm confused by what it is you have. A rip of the Japanese contemporary script? I'm not sure how that helps you if you are not a Japanese reader.

Quote
But the DQ3 script is really long.
I had to ask some help to another translator for accelerating, and even that way I'm suffering.
Yes... Our task with the NES version felt never ending compared to the others.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 22, 2021, 11:16:58 am
we make things first for our own pleasure, and second for others.
I like something I have invested many days or weeks doing is of help to many people, not just to a gourmet minority.

Quote from: Chicken Knife
I'm confused by what it is you have. A rip of the Japanese contemporary script?
An unreleased official English script, completely finished.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 22, 2021, 11:25:55 am
Quote
An unreleased official English script, completely finished.
I would absolutely love the opportunity to look at this, though it seems like you have a rare treasure in your hands and might want to maintain its rarity.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 22, 2021, 11:29:44 am
I would absolutely love the opportunity to look at this, though it seems like you have a rare treasure in your hands and might want to maintain its rarity.  :laugh:

Haha. No, it's not a Rembrandt.
I will use it for my translation and then share it.

I could insert it in the SNES DQ3 English ROM made by DQ Translations too, but I like very much this translation; so that divides my feelings. Besides I don't have that much time.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 23, 2021, 12:50:42 am
It will take us months to circle back to you (and the community in general) with a complete list of our issues with the RPGOne DQI&II translation. In the meantime, we are seeing lines in these games almost immediately that we consider problematic. Just to provide an example:

(https://i.imgur.com/hqL3mLe.png)

I'm curious if you can see any of the problems here.

First, would any native English speaking priest ever say this, as an introductory statement no less? (the answer is no.) It would sound better by simply removing the second "the", but the repetition of benevolent also doesn't particularly work.

Furthermore, why did this author choose plural for gods? Truthful, the Japanese could be interpreted either way, but look at the cross symbol next to him. Look at the western priestly garb. These early Dragon Quest churches seem to be inspired by Christianity, and in general, these priests come across as monotheistic in their text. I can't help but think of the strict monotheism of the missionary priest in Jipang when we get to DQ3. Of course, there are references to the "Spirit of the Land", Rubiss, who is also a kind of divine entity, but she seems to be outside the scope this religion, or at the least, subordinate to a greater god.

This line was the same in the Famicom version of the game, and we rendered it:

Our benevolent God is an ally to the righteous.

Less literal, but captures the essence, and a much more natural sounding priestly platitude. I could actually hear it being said.

We are certainly going to include more egregious translation problems, but I thought I'd post this an example of the majority of things that rub us wrong. I can see many people here saying "not such a big deal; I get the idea." But for me? It doesn't work. The clumsiness of lines like this breaks the immersion.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 23, 2021, 02:48:00 am
They are polytheistic in this game, Chicken Knife.

It's an atemporal game. They share the same cross symbol, but they don't mention Jesus Christ anywhere, so the cross could be whatever. They just mention Roto (they even say he was a gift from gods). And it's a Japanese game, with much shintoist influence. Remember Japanese and Eastern people tend to mix religions: Japanese mix shintoism with buddhism all the time. Maybe they are mixing christianism with polytheism here. It's like when in Dragon Ball Akira Toriyama draws the people of some village like arabs, are they arabs? We don't know. Is Oo-Long Chinese, or communist? We don't know, it's just an atemporal world with influences from those cultures. We even see some men that are humanoid animals.

That benevolent thing sounds cool to me. If I had done the translation I would have prefered to use a synonymous for the 2nd "benevolent" and I'd had removed the 2nd "the", but I've not done it. That repetition could be an aliteration (sounds repetition) resource. I'm just bugfixing a little here. I have to respect the way the original translator chose meanwhile it's not clearly grammarly broken or it's not a typo.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Red Soul on June 23, 2021, 05:22:45 am
I was curious about this issue so I went back and did some digging.

They are polytheistic in this game, Chicken Knife.

I wonder? I went back and checked the church messages for 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 and the priests all invoke either the Goddess or the Almighty, with starting capitals and singular.

While it can be hard to discern such things in Japanese, without checking the script we can't really be certain of either, and while the localized scripts for later games may have chosen Goddess over God as a manner of censorship, the fact remains it is a singular entity when the priests speak about it.

It's an atemporal game. They share the same cross symbol, but they don't mention Jesus Christ anywhere, so the cross could be whatever.

Yes, but not mentioning Jesus doesn't mean they are necessarily polythetistic or syncretic, although I agree the symbology linked to the cross is vast (although it is still my personal belief that it at least tries to hint at the medieval church institution. The garments of the priests, the music that accompanies the interior, when applicable, and so on).

Also a lot of Dragon Quest games had their crosses censored and changed into something else. You could maybe think they were being overly cautious, but I don't think so; they could easily be construed as a christian cross and that's why they were changed, even though many different kinds of cross do exist, like the Ankh.

Maybe they are mixing christianism with polytheism here. It's like when in Dragon Ball Akira Toriyama draws the people of some village

Maybe, but the Japanese are a lot less uptight about many things, and religion is one of them. I feel Yuji Horii just chose that since it would fit his desired medieval setting - there's probably not a lot of deep thinking into this aspect, though I could be wrong.

That benevolent thing sounds cool to me. If I had done the translation I would have prefered to use a synonymous for the 2nd "benevolent" and I'd had removed the 2nd "the", but I've not done it. That repetition could be an aliteration (sounds repetition) resource. I'm just bugfixing a little here. I have to respect the way the original translator chose meanwhile it's not clearly grammarly broken or it's not a typo.

It could be taken as emphatic repetition I guess, an outburst of faith, if you will, so it's not inherently wrong in this context, although it still sounds a little stilted, if you ask me.

I'm not trying to speak for Chicken Knife or trying to throw tar onto what you two are trying to accomplish here, but I'm genuinely interested in being part of the conversation. I won't create any problems to you guys.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 23, 2021, 06:33:03 am
When I referenced Christianity, I thought it would be obvious that that religion isn't being conveyed specifically, but rather in an abstract way--there for aesthetics if you will. Although there are eastern inspired locations and characters in Dragon Quest games, the conventions and style of western medieval history very much dominates the setting, and we all know the religion that dominated western medieval history.

And a comment I'll pass along from nejimakipiyo: And given that Horii used plural to denote a pantheon in 2, I would say he'd have done the same in 1 if the priest was referring to multiple gods. Horii isn't sloppy

We've translated a few of these games now, and yes, the priests have consistently referred to god in a form where the standard interpretation would be singular.

Quote
I'm not trying to speak for Chicken Knife or trying to throw tar onto what you two are trying to accomplish here, but I'm genuinely interested in being part of the conversation. I won't create any problems to you guys.
I think other voices in these matters are important. Rod and I probably both have predispositions here that make our overall opinions suspect. Rod has made his fierce loyalty to these existing English translators clear, so he will probably do what most will do in that scenario: argue strongly where there is any grey area, and mostly go silent on my stronger points. And there is still the matter of Rod not being a native English speaker. He might know the rules of English, but will be weak in terms of assessing what sounds natural, as there are far more unwritten rules than written ones, I'd say.

As for me? The new folks certainly have a way of disrespecting the old folks when it comes to translation. I've seen it countless times, where new writers come along and gleefully throw the old writers in the gutter. Some of my commentary has probably leaned that way already, and I want to try my best to be fair and reasonable. I like this being a public discussion in the sense that others can help keep me in check, discounting the occasionally absurd and irrational arguments we might randomly accumulate from an open forum.

I'm kind of tempted to keep dropping things like this here if there is an interest. It might mute the cumulative effect of putting everything together at once, and I might end up spending far too much time arguing points on a forum thread rather than working on my stated intention, but it is nevertheless tempting.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 23, 2021, 06:55:13 am
the priests all invoke either the Goddess or the Almighty,
The only fact they call that deity in feminine already implies a polytheistic conception of the world. If they were true monotheists God would have no gender, it would be an abstract concept, so it would be neutral (with undetermined gender). The non-specified gender form for god/goddess is its basis form, or lexeme: "god".

Also, the fact in DQ2 citizens complain Hargon is trying to invoke Malroth, an evil god, it means even though there is only a benevolent god that must be worshipped, evil deities also exists, with power enough to be considered dangerous.

It was a similar concept to Akhen Aton religious view, with his cult to the only Sun-god, Aton, refusing worshipping the other minor deities.
This is called: monolatry or henotheism.

Same happened with primitive Abrahamism, as it's seen in the oldest parts of the Bible itself. God requested being the only worshipped god and considered the others powerless, not worthful of worshipping. Judaism is a religion that evolved from polytheism to monotheism, passing by an intermediate henotheistic stage. Some remnants of this view we may find them in the Hebrew word for God: "Elohim", that means "Gods". -im is the plural mark. Eloh would be the singular for god (same word as in Arabic ilāh, god).


So maybe the first DQ's used a lexical plural for a singular concept, no? I think that aspect needs to be conserved in a translation. It's very interesting.


Rod has made his fierce loyalty to these existing English translators clear
Lol. My "fierce loyalty", how funny phrase.
I only think they made a good job.
Japanese is more ambiguous than Western languages.
When I translated from Japanese to English that DQ1 alternate ending that was untranslated in RPGOne's translation, I said things in my own style (with very serious problems with limit of space, by the way), but the result meant exactly the same RPGOne people had translated in the standard variant of the ending (and I translated without copying from it at any moment). They were just synonymic. Believe me.
There I noticed they translated well. They didn't translate everything too literally, and they even solved the space problem in a very elegant way.
As philologist I cannot put that work in the bin just due to minor aspects.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 23, 2021, 08:01:50 am
The only fact they call that deity in feminine already implies a polytheistic conception of the world.
While I probably would agree that the priests would acknowledge the existence of other gods (at least gods of evil), they do not make reference to a god in the feminine form for at least the first few Dragon Quest games. Not sure yet when that started (if that started) in the Japanese versions.

"Elohim", that means "Gods". -im is the plural mark. Eloh would be the singular for god (same word as in Arabic ilāh, god).
Not an equivalency. Kami is neither inherently singular or plural, and there are ways Horii could have clarified that the priests worshipped a pantheon if he wanted to, just as he referred to the evil gods in the plural within the same game.

There's even a DQ3 line in Alefgard that goes: "God is light, and the Archfiend is darkness." Clearly singular to singular. Or would you propose that Horii is contrasting a plural set of gods to an individual Zoma? I don't think so.

Quote
When I translated from Japanese to English that DQ1 alternate ending that was untranslated in RPGOne's translation, I said things in my own style (with very serious problems with limit of space, by the way), but the result meant exactly the same RPGOne people had translated in the standard variant of the ending (and I translated without copying from it at any moment). They were just synonymic. Believe me.
There I noticed they translated well. They didn't translate everything too literally, and they even solved the space problem in a very elegant way.
Again, I'm not saying they didn't try hard or had no skill. I'm also not saying that what we produce won't be nitpicked flaws in the future by some other upstart. But we are rapidly accumulating a laundry list of what we perceive to be issues. Some pickier and like minded fans will agree. Some will just love our work because we toss out more of the localization conventions than these other translators did. Some people will hate us for that. Some will think that our issues are minor in the end. That's all ok. I think that options are important. You yourself are someone who has published Spanish translations for games that already have a Spanish translation, and thus have provided similar options to the public. Would everyone agree with you that the original version was so bad? Did you have people condemning you for replacing an existing Spanish translation? As someone said before in the thread, I think the whole hacking community revolves around the spirit of options, that there is no dogmatic loyalty to an absolute version of anything. That everything is up for debate, and that minority views can be treated as valid and catered to.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: nejimakipiyo on June 23, 2021, 08:34:28 am
But we are rapidly accumulating a laundry list of what we perceive to be issues.

Here's what I have, so far. I just started playing about an hour ago, and I'm still in Radatome Castle because almost every NPC has flawed text. Here are some of the more egregious errors I've picked out.

King, in the opening scene
"Long ago, the legendary warrior Roto was given the Light Orb by the gods..."

Translation error - Chicken Knife has already been discussing Gods, but I jotted down the main points in my list. God is singular in Dragon Quest. The Japanese word, "kami", can be taken as singular or plural depending on context, and the context in this game is definitively singular. The cross symbolism around priests in the world of DQ is the biggest hint that they follow a monotheistic religion analagous to Christianity. Horii & his team could easily have used the definitive plural form, "kamigami", as in the subtitle of Dragon Quest II, had they wanted to refer to gods in the plural.


"With its powers, he defeated the demons that had covered this world."

Translation error - I object to the word "demon" here. The Japanese uses "mamono", the standard word for monsters. Mamono refers to every basic Slime, Dracky, and Ghost, as well as the more powerful creatures you can face.

NPC near throne
"Princess Laura is the only beloved daughter of the king."

Phrasing issue - This makes it sound as if the king has multiple daughters, and only loves one of them. The correct phrasing here would be "Princess Laura is the king's beloved daughter."

"So when the Queen passed away, Princess Laura helped support the king's broken heart..."

Translation/phrasing issue: 王様の心の支えになっておられた means "became emotional support for the king". It seems like the translators here didn't have much of a grasp of Japanese grammar and translated it too literally in a way that doesn't sound natural in English.

"Then, half a year ago, the Princess was kidnapped by demons!"

Translation error - Again, should be monsters. If I brought this up every time, I'd be beating a dead horse. But this is a recurring error with at least 4 instances in Radatome Castle alone, and I would imagine many more throughout the game.

Guards downstairs
"A record of your journey can be written in the Imperial Scrolls of Honor."
"The king will record your journey for you in the Imperial Scrolls of Honor."

Translation issue - Imperial Scrolls of Honor isn't an accurate translation. Rather, it's an artifact left over from the original NES translation that turned everything super medieval. Adventure log, or adventure journal, is a better-sounding, and more accurate translation.

Merchant in castle
"Because of this, I've collected mortifying and sorrowful memories of those times."

There are two issues here.

Translation error 1 - Mortifying is absolutely the wrong word choice here. It is a possible way to translate the Japanese word, kuyashikute, but it does not fit the context whatsoever. In English, mortifying means to feel an intense sense of embarrassment. Why would the merchant be embarrassed?

Translation error 2 - No native English speaker would say "I've collected [...] memories." This shows a lack of understanding the Japanese verb tamaru. In this line, it appears in a negative form: たまりません tamarimasen. The merchant is saying he doesn't or can't tamaru. Well, what's tamaru? Sure, it can mean 'collect' - in which case, he would be saying he can't collect frustration and sorrow. Huh? But tamaru can also mean to bear, to endure. It makes a lot more sense with that interpretation. I would render this phrase:
"When I think back to that time, I can't bear my frustration and sorrow."


I'll keep going, but so far from just talking to a few NPCs in the castle, I've gotten the impression that the translators didn't really have a grasp on either Japanese or English grammar, and were a little too stuck in the original (also flawed) translation. To make it absolutely clear: I would never be able to play this translation for fun, and I think readers deserve a much more polished text as an option.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 23, 2021, 09:54:38 am
There's even a DQ3 line in Alefgard that goes: "God is light, and the Archfiend is darkness." Clearly singular to singular.
Not the same. The Archfiend is a demon, not a god. It's the greatest demon, or the boss of demons, same concept than Satanas or "The Devil" in Christianity.

DQ3 is clearly a monotheistic game (DQ's religion had evolved, like in Bible).


Did you have people condemning you for replacing an existing Spanish translation?
If I redid them with games that are well translated of course, they'd criticise me. I would even feel shame.
But DQ1+2's one was very poor in vocabulary (and had far more game breaking bugs that RPGOne's, untranslated sentences in English, orthograph or dotting mistakes, many dialogs were shortened with very simple words, were not faithful or were not well translated, etc.).
Chrono Trigger's one is not faithful at all, and even reprograms/changes the battle rules or statistics behaviour making you gain abilities 3 or 4 times quicker than in the vanilla game. It over abuses of Spanish slangs. It over abuses of plural even when you are only one person in the party. It changes the names of some characters or enemies to something that has nothing to do to be funny, like Johnny to Patxi (because of a famous Spanish motorbike racer called Patxi López), Nagaette (or Naga in the Japanese version) to Jaca Paca (that means "Franky the female mule" or "donkey"), and many other things. Also he doesn't translate the different styles of speech, like Robots'.

With the FF6 translation made by him the same. It's too free and changes the battle rules by changing the assembly routines to what he likes and also applying a kilo of patches.

I think it's not the same than what we're talking about of RPGOne. RPGone's work is very faithful and of quality, it doesn't deliberately reprogram the game behaviour, thus changing the experience. It doesn't change the battle rules. And the few unintentional glitches can be "easily" fixed without redoing his job.

This kind of translation is comparable in Spanish to the one of Shin Megami Tensei 2, that is very professional, or to the one of Treasure of the Rudras. I'd feel much shame if I self-convinced with some little excuses to redo all that.

No. Everything is not redoable.
Don't do others what you don't like to be done.


June 23, 2021, 10:06:52 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Translation error

Nejimakipiyo, can I see the whole Japanese text of each conflictive sentence?


In English, mortifying means to feel an intense sense of embarrassment. Why would the merchant be embarrassed?
https://www.wordreference.com/es/en/translation.asp?spen=mortificante

Second meaning:
(Formal) To be mortified, to be conscious-stricken = to feel remorse, to feel torment yourself.

English language has much Latin influence, and many words borrowed from Latin, due partially to centuries of Norman domination, and partially to the influence of pan-European Christian culture, that during centuries used Latin as an international literary or educated, written language.

So English language accepts in formal style many acceptions that are not common in colloquial language. Like "to be mortified" in its original Latin sense (feeling like dying, from mors, mortis = death).

This is called "literary word". In this case: a literary semantic use of a word.
This shows from RPGOne / spspiff a very strong vocabulary basis in his own language, that I appreciate.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: nejimakipiyo on June 23, 2021, 10:26:11 am
King's text

(https://i.imgur.com/Se1OzGC.png)


Chancellor's text

(https://i.imgur.com/0D3g4Ow.jpg)


Merchant's text

(https://i.imgur.com/5dnItF8.png)

~

As I said earlier in private conversation to Chicken Knife and another friend, as much as I dislike the official translations of Dragon Quest games I do think they are professionally written and grammatically sound.  This fan translation, however, falls far short of both of those goalposts. I would like for some more native English speakers to weigh in on the matter before I continue gathering data. From our standpoint, none of this dialogue sounds natural or professional whatsoever, but I don't want to waste my time nitpicking this gibberish if you can't see how bad these errors really are.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 23, 2021, 10:27:29 am
Not the same. The Archfiend is a demon, not a god. It's the greatest demon, or the boss of demons, same concept than Satanas or "The Devil" in Christianity.

DQ3 is clearly a monotheistic game (DQ's religion had evolved, like in Bible).
So you acknowledge the monotheism of DQ3, I don't think you have any support to challenge the monotheism of DQ1, but you insist that there is a plurality of benevolent gods in DQ2... because of why again? I still haven't heard a strong argument. There is a pantheon of evil gods, yes. The subtitle alone says as much, with *specifically* plural language. Why again would Horii not be specific if he wanted the player to understand benevolent gods in the plural?

This kind of translation is comparable in Spanish to the one of Shin Megami Tensei 2, that is very professional, or to the one of Treasure of the Rudras. I'd feel much shame if I self-convinced with some little excuses to redo all that.

No. Everything is not redoable.
Don't do others what you don't like to be done.
I for one would have no problem with one of our translations being done again. Ego isn't my driver, and I consider each translation to have unique value (and problems). Since you enjoy discussing the bible, we could probably go on a lengthy discourse on the pros and cons of various bible translation, but let's not digress. Do people scream bloody murder in the world of literature when someone sets out to do a new translation of a classic work? I think not. (well, with the bible yes, but that's religion for you  :laugh:) Each translation has their own unique authorial fingerprint and relative quality. They are discussed to the extent that they have popular appeal or academic value. Some may say that the original translations are better, but who is being shamed for doing a new translation? This concept continues to strike me as absurd. It's amazing how much criticism is delivered in the ROM hacking community from both within and outside toward people who devote themselves to free labor that brings community value.

You were at the receiving end of this with the level of criticism toward your title screen. Whether I liked or disliked it, I wasn't judging you for including it in your work. I only said that it didn't fit in ours, which you seemed to be trying to impose initially, and I argued against that. I happen to think your new one is extremely tasteful and fitting with a Dragon Quest game (who can argue with original art), but I still supported your original, even though many felt you should be ashamed for their perception of bad taste.

Will we ever settle our philosophical debates here? We are probably both stubborn and long winded enough to go on for ages about this. I'm going to try to let nejimakipiyo do more of the talking, but I warn you: they are far less patient than I am. :laugh:
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 23, 2021, 10:39:28 am
they are far less patient than I am.
"They"? You are pluralizing him! Lol. Like in "Elohim", or in DQ2!
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 23, 2021, 12:03:37 pm
"They"? You are pluralizing him! Lol. Like in "Elohim", or in DQ2!
Let's not make assumptions. I prefer that we keep the discussion around the issues we noted, and we would appreciate having others weigh in.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 23, 2021, 12:34:50 pm
Chicken Knife:
You can't compare something written millenia before Christ, and during centuries, like the Bible, that is besides the core script of the main religion of the Roman Empire and later of Europe since more or less 4th to 6th centuries, with a game from the late 80's or early 90's.
But even if you do, during all the Middle Ages until Renaissance with the downfall of Constantinople (that is, during centuries) there was only one official translation of the Bible for the Catholic Church: the Vulgata, in Latin, made by Saint Jerome. But after centuries of endless handscript manual copying the mistakes and alterations (due to human mistakes mostly) were so many in the different copies that it was virtually impossible to know how the original was: what made necessary a new Latin retranslation from the Greek translation of the 70 ones (that is the official, nowadays, for the Catholic Church).

If with something like Bible, that has counted with so many translations through history, there was one only translation commonly in use in Western Europe during the whole Middle Ages, why should it be different in only 20 years since DQ1+2 was first translated to English, in 2002?

Anyway I think both things are not comparable. If you want to compare an RPG with something in literature it should be with a theatre work, since an RPG is a dialogistic genre into video-games.
Or at least, compare it with something from the 20th century, like The Lord of the Rings (or The Hobbit):

Do you know how many translations there exist of The Lord of the Rings to Spanish, in the world?
One.
Same with The Hobbit.

Do you know why? Because it's not necessary more. And because it's of very good quality too. It's faithful, and everybody understands it perfectly, so redoing a so damn long work seems useless.

That's my point.


P.S.: I'd like to hear other opinions from people too.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Goznog on June 23, 2021, 12:48:48 pm
multiple translations of a single media is a common practice across books, film subtitles, and so on, yet gamers seem to have the most resistance to the concept.
actually, I get the feeling that most gamers care less about translation and more about having "a game with English text in it".
why can't different translations of something exist? I'm sure if DQ Delocalised released their own hacks of the remakes, there'd still be a bunch of people playing the older hacks simply because of how long they've been around. meanwhile, gamers who are more concerned about translation will take the time to research and evaluate the newer hacks.

also: if the translated scripts of these old hacks is held as sacrosanct, then shouldn't the underlying hacking and code be too?
I think fixing the hack's bugs and adding extra features like intro screens can be considered just as "disrespectful" to the work as changing the script would be.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 23, 2021, 01:42:47 pm
if the translated scripts of these old hacks is held as sacrosanct, then shouldn't the underlying hacking and code be too?
I think fixing the hack's bugs and adding extra features like intro screens can be considered just as "disrespectful"
The difference is you are not altering anything from the original English text because it's a quality reliable work (except unintentional typos), and people don't loose their advance because they've found an unexpected bug that freezes the game, and they can complete it.

I think the difference is obvious.
And a splash screen is necessary to difference the bugfixed version from the original row one with those bugs that already had its own splash screen (that the new version still conserves as optional, by the way, so where is the disrespect), so people may difference it easily, don't confuse, and know they're actually playing a bugfix.

Otherwise imagine the mess.
If the Japanese version has no splash screen and the RPGOne's bugged version has it, and you remove your splash screen, how do they know they're playing the RPGOne version, but bugfixed? Most of people don't research so much, they just push start and play.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 23, 2021, 03:03:17 pm
Chicken Knife:
You can't compare something written millenia before Christ, and during centuries, like the Bible, that is besides the core script of the main religion of the Roman Empire and later of Europe since more or less 4th to 6th centuries, with a game from the late 80's or early 90's.
But even if you do, during all the Middle Ages until Renaissance with the downfall of Constantinople (that is, during centuries) there was only one official translation of the Bible for the Catholic Church: the Vulgata, in Latin, made by Saint Jerome. But after centuries of endless handscript manual copying the mistakes and alterations (due to human mistakes mostly) were so many in the different copies that it was virtually impossible to know how the original was: what made necessary a new Latin retranslation from the Greek translation of the 70 ones (that is the official, nowadays, for the Catholic Church).

If with something like Bible, that has counted with so many translations through history, there was one only translation commonly in use in Western Europe during the whole Middle Ages, why should it be different in only 20 years since DQ1+2 was first translated to English, in 2002?
Do you think individuals were actually empowered to create translations in the middle ages in the way that people are now? There's probably a ton of fascinating reasons why translations were simply unfeasible during these days. But regardless of how old the work is, the fact that there are so many today, with many of them very respectable and different--that is the piece that seems relevant.

Or we could look at the Divine Comedy. No translations for 500 years, and then suddenly, starting at the turn of the 19th century, there have been something like 100 English translations. It's a bit insane. Why so many? Surely some of those prior translations had to be considered good or great? We could certainly go down the rabbit hole of exploring that, but why? It's enough for the purpose of this discussion to acknowledge that it happens. Maybe a day will come when numerous Spanish translations of Lord of the Rings will come to be. Maybe it will have something to do with the copywrite expiring.

Quote
multiple translations of a single media is a common practice across books, film subtitles, and so on, yet gamers seem to have the most resistance to the concept.
actually, I get the feeling that most gamers care less about translation and more about having "a game with English text in it".
why can't different translations of something exist? I'm sure if DQ Delocalised released their own hacks of the remakes, there'd still be a bunch of people playing the older hacks simply because of how long they've been around. meanwhile, gamers who are more concerned about translation will take the time to research and evaluate the newer hacks.
I very much agree Goznog that gamers just want English text, however that is manifested, but with an overwhelming preference for official releases and the newest versions. The average gamer simply does not care about the finer points (while they might care about whatever offends their nostalgia). It makes concerns about dividing the fan base or disparaging hacker legacies seem kind of silly. We have this tiny little minority of people that cares about these things, and among that group of people, there are all kinds of different preferences & priorities. Let's drop the illusions of grandeur, treat this as the niche hobby that it is, and be more supportive of the diversity of the work produced within this little world of ours.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Red Soul on June 23, 2021, 04:38:03 pm
I very much agree Goznog that gamers just want English text, however that is manifested, but with an overwhelming preference for official releases and the newest versions. The average gamer simply does not care about the finer points (while they might care about whatever offends their nostalgia). It makes concerns about dividing the fan base or disparaging hacker legacies seem kind of silly. We have this tiny little minority of people that cares about these things, and among that group of people, there are all kinds of different preferences & priorities. Let's drop the illusions of grandeur, treat this as the niche hobby that it is, and be more supportive of the diversity of the work produced within this little world of ours.

This. I was going to add my say to other bullet points on the conversation, but I think it would just become an endless iteration of circular thinking. It's not reasonable to put any kind of work on a pedestal, be it fan made or official, and it is not wrong to try to correct what is clearly incorrect or sounds unnatural.

Just because something is well-written enough that it isn't plain gibberish doesn't mean that it cannot and should not be improved.
As I said before, I am a purist, I enjoy literal and accurate scripts. Someone else might love the Working Designs trainwrecks or say "we were lucky to even get something" and settle for that. Other than rosy-tinted saudosism, there's no need to operate on low bars.

Fans do fan translations because they enjoy it, not to get street rep. Fan translators aren't gaming crack groups trying to claim first dibs. Also, just because someone modifies a script, it doesn't mean they'll add sily inserts or fart jokes; I don't think we are dealing with pre-pubescent teenagers here, so all this rhetoric about wanting to preserve the original work doesn't have a lot of ground; it will be a distinct derivation, no one is going to throw the original into a black hole, never to be seen again.

No one is trying to ruin anyone's legacy here and people are free to use whatever source they want to play whatever they want, but no one is going to burst into flames for wanting to try to bring a better experience to others. Even if better is relative, different tastes can and should be taken into account, and that is a good thing.

Let's not erect holy monoliths for things that shouldn't have them.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 23, 2021, 06:47:37 pm
Do you think individuals were actually empowered to create translations in the middle ages in the way that people are now?
"Empowered"? Lol. What's that.
They couldn't make many translations of the Bible because they had lost the originals Lol, until Constantinople fell, that they could access the Greek and Hebrew originals thanks to exiled monks. Until then nothing! Besides that the Vulgata got a prestige, and also became the official text of the Church. Besides that not everybody is or was qualified to interpret that text correctly, nor they could translate it however they wanted, there had to be some rules. Otherwise imagine the chaos (that's a difference with Protestantism, by the way: whoever can make a translation without a quality filter and much quotation).

That's partly my point with this.

If whoever comes makes whatever translation they want over the other we end up in anarchy: in an anarchic mess of patches and translations that most of people, not so informed, won't know which is the right.
Added to this is not easy to read Japanese (thanks goodness Lol).

I'm only waiting your full list of things. Don't pass them to me one by one. Pass me the whole bunch. I will find a page with the Japanese script, will start translating it myself with a good dictionary, will compare your things, see if your points have a point, and if I see reasonable and right your criterium you will have my blessings. I will help you in whatever you need.

Anyway I don't know why you necessarily want to convince me. Probably you've already figured out how to remove the splash, it's not hard.

For my blessing, I just need facts, and to check the thing myself with the Japanese source in my hand and your list in the other hand. I'm a philologist. I'm very used to do these things with Middle Ages original handscripts (or photocopies of them, of different versions of a book from different countries), in Arabic language or in old Castilian (with damn paleographic letters), this is even easier, because it's printed, typographic text, the only complication are kanjis, but they're not many in this game, and with a good dictionary, my knowledge of Japanese grammar will let me see the truth.


Quote from: Red Soul
I think it would just become an endless iteration of circular thinking.

Don't worry about that circular thing. I have said everything I had to say. I think my points have been understood, as I have Chicken K.'s. I've said nearly my last word.

By the way, you were right in your reviews. You encouraged me to do this port. Other people did too through different social networks, like Twitter or Facebook, but your review was the detonating drop. What did it cost me? Only answering by here to many kinds of attacks of all the varieties, even linguistic ones Lol.
Well. I can't deny it's funny.

Quote from: Red Soul
Let's not erect holy monoliths for things that shouldn't have them.

There're no holy monoliths, I think you misunderstand me.
There are philological criteria, in a subject where I have a formation and a qualification, and I try to be professional.
I'm not illiterate in Japanese. Maybe I'm not fluent, but my knowledge of read Japanese is enough to understand what is happening with good dictionaries, that I have in paper since before starting the university, and patience. I also know some 500 kanjis by heart (the standard list is around 2000).

That's it.
If I see the translation is good, except some details, it's not for free.
It's not because of a religious belief, nor fanatism, nor idolatry, nor I'm a fanboy nor anything. I have an age for being fanboy.

Quote
Just because something is well-written enough that it isn't plain gibberish doesn't mean that it cannot and should not be improved.
We're not talking about improving. We're talking about investing months in correcting... a whole team of people!
It seems RPGone is just a person, ChrisRPG. He didn't even translate, he was one of the main ROMhackers.
The translator was spspiff.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Red Soul on June 23, 2021, 09:22:37 pm
Don't worry about that circular thing. I have said everything I had to say. I think my points have been understood, as I have Chicken K.'s. I've said nearly my last word.

By the way, you were right in your reviews. You encouraged me to do this port. Other people did too through different social networks, like Twitter or Facebook, but your review was the detonating drop. What did it cost me? Only answering by here to many kinds of attacks of all the varieties, even linguistic ones Lol.
Well. I can't deny it's funny.

I'm glad my review drove you to go out of your way with it, I never thought it would amount to a positive change like this.
I hope you never felt attacked by my comments, if you did, I'm sorry, that wasn't my intention.

That's it.
If I see the translation is good, except some details, it's not for free.
It's not because of a religious belief, nor fanatism, nor idolatry, nor I'm a fanboy nor anything. I have an age for being fanboy.
We're not talking about improving. We're talking about investing months in correcting... a whole team of people!
It seems RPGone is just a person, ChrisRPG. He didn't even translate, he was one of the main ROMhackers.
The translator was spspiff.

Yes, but what can seem like an inconsequential detail to someone won't be for someone else. I am bothered by small incorherencies and errors, even if the most people won't care. I know I do care. People that are driven enough to do retranslations care about such things.

When I mentioned holy monoliths I was just making an absurdist metaphor to your apparent dedication to the translation as is, I know you aren't a fanatic.

I understand that in part what you would like is to avoid the repetition of efforts, but really Chicken Knife and company want to do it, and many, including myself, appreciate this.

Contrary to what you believe, though, retranslations won't lead to a wild west where there are many, many kinds of retranslations of all flavors. People that have the technical know how, passion and commitment to even consider doing this are very serious; it's not going to be sub-par. It may not be to everyone's taste, but it certainly will please many.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 23, 2021, 09:33:15 pm
it's not going to be sub-par. It may not be to everyone's taste, but it certainly will please many.
Okay, okay. I believe you.

I understand that in part what you would like is to avoid the repetition of efforts, but really Chicken Knife and company want to do it, and many, including myself, appreciate this.
I don't doubt it.
They're eager to do this.
They don't seem to find any thrauma in the repetition of efforts. Lol.

I've done my advice, anyway.

Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 24, 2021, 08:40:41 am
I don't doubt it.
They're eager to do this.
They don't seem to find any thrauma in the repetition of efforts. Lol.
Yes, and when we publish it, half of the responses will be people loudly condemning us for our unwillingness to include options for the official spell names. :laugh:

Quote
I'm only waiting your full list of things. Don't pass them to me one by one. Pass me the whole bunch. I will find a page with the Japanese script, will start translating it myself with a good dictionary, will compare your things, see if your points have a point, and if I see reasonable and right your criterium you will have my blessings. I will help you in whatever you need.
You may not think you need a native Japanese speaker to inquire with, but you most assuredly do. The guidance they can provide, particularly with the presence of obscure Japanese expressions, is essential. You won't find resources to help with those matters. We probably reference our native speaking partner 30 times in the course of a translation, and most of the time, when we do, we learn that the way we were going to go with a certain line was very wrong, because there are expressions that half-way make sense rendered in a literal way, but mean something very different to a Japanese native speaker. I think that the majority of the problems that exist in game translations are a direct result of non-native translators relying only on dictionaries and never taking that additional step.

Our concern is that you are going to compare our proposals that create equivalent expressions to the previous renderings that interpret the expression in a literal way, and you are going to look up the Japanese, also read it in a literal way, and say look here: the original translation is better. And we are not very confident that you will look at the stilted, awkward resulting idea and feel that there is a problem. You loved the use of "mortifying" that conveyed the wrong idea to 99.999% of the readership.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 24, 2021, 08:45:15 am
Of course it's much better with a native. Or with someone fluent in Japanese.
My Japanese reading is slow and with dictionary. It's good for some paragraphs, but would be too slow and time taking for a whole game.

Anyway, the important thing in a translation is the translator to be native in the targetting language.

Can I please talk with that native friend?
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 24, 2021, 08:53:21 am
Anyway, the important thing in a translation is the translator to be native in the targetting language.
That might be acceptable, but it's far from ideal. Having both sides is a powerful thing.

And with my native friend? I'll inquire when that becomes relevant.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: nejimakipiyo on June 24, 2021, 09:14:30 am
I'm only waiting your full list of things. Don't pass them to me one by one. Pass me the whole bunch.

The reason I did a chunk at a time so far was because I have to actually play through the game to acquire these lines, spend time cross-referencing the Japanese line, and then write an explanation for why the translation is wrong. It's not something I can whip up at the snap of a finger. DQ1 isn't a long game by any means, but it would probably take me multiple hours a day for a week or more to be able to produce a full list of errors with the game. There are many more than I thought there would be before I started. (And this is without even mentioning DQ2, which will take twice as long or longer.)

I'll do it, and push myself through the suffering of reading a massacred English script in an otherwise lovely game. All I ask of you is that you be more willing to perceive errors as they are, and stop making excuses for sloppy, poor quality writing.


I will find a page with the Japanese script, will start translating it myself with a good dictionary, will compare your things, see if your points have a point, and if I see reasonable and right your criterium you will have my blessings. I will help you in whatever you need.

I can give you a page with the Japanese script. It's unfortunately not complete (I had trouble finding a complete one, so I had to resort to starting a Japanese file to verify some lines) but it has the majority of the lines. This is the page I'm referencing.

https://cour89.com/
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 24, 2021, 11:26:24 am
All I ask of you is that you be more willing to perceive errors as they are, and stop making excuses for sloppy, poor quality writing.
Hahahahahahaha.
Okay. Seeing is believing for me.

Quote from: nejimakipiyo
This is the page I'm referencing.
Very kind from you.

June 24, 2021, 11:27:52 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
____
By the way, there is a new version of the patch ready, that can be ontained in our webpage: http://crackowia.gq/dqust1n2.html
or in the submission queue.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Recca on June 24, 2021, 03:14:39 pm
Do you know why? Because it's not necessary more. And because it's of very good quality too. It's faithful, and everybody understands it perfectly, so redoing a so damn long work seems useless.

That's my point.

P.S.: I'd like to hear other opinions from people too.
I agree completely with what you're saying here and with the examples that you've listed above. Is there a point to re-translating a game that already has a completed translation? The answer is sometimes, but usually no. Now let's consider these following examples of when such an effort might be merited or not:

Breath of Fire II for example had an awful and at times, hard to understand official translation released back in the 90s. Ryusui's re-translation effort was indeed much needed and was also greatly appreciated by many fans of this game and series in general. Having played through both versions myself, I can say without a doubt that this one is by far the better of the two. Not only has the script been greatly improved upon, but it also adds some nice new menu graphics, intro music and the ability to run.

On the other hand, the numerous re-translations that exist for games such as Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy VI do seem like a massive waste of time. Ted Woolsey's translations are very accurate for the most part and very professionally written. The only people who complain about them are nitpickers who do not represent the opinions of most JRPG fans. I can link to many different message boards from other sites where people complain constantly about why there's no current translation for a game when another already has multiple different translations of it by different people. A lot of them are especially annoyed to see news posts of a game getting re-translated again instead of a new one being worked on.

The same can be said with the fan translation community as well. In this example, Dejap released an amazing translation for Bahamut Lagoon back in the early 2000s that was beloved by many people. Then a re-translation of it was released recently this year that claims to "be better because it uses modern romhacking tools" or whatever. I've played both versions and still prefer the original Dejap version. Now, I'm not saying this as an absolute statement, as it is a matter of personal taste and opinion. What I am trying to say however, is that it seems like a bit of a waste of time to re-translate a game that already has a good translation which exists instead of tackling another game that doesn't even have one to begin with.

Even if a new translation is "slightly better" than the previous existing one, is it really worth the effort? I of course and can't tell others what to do in their spare time, but is it truly not more of a productive use of one's time and effort to focus on translating a new game rather than one that has already been completed years ago? Well anyway, I've got my own translation projects to focus working on behalf of Dynamic-Designs, so I'll be off now.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 24, 2021, 04:09:42 pm
I agree completely with what you're saying here and with the examples that you've listed above. Is there a point to re-translating a game that already has a completed translation? The answer is sometimes, but usually no. Now let's consider these following examples of when such an effort might be merited or not:

Breath of Fire II for example had an awful and at times, hard to understand official translation released back in the 90s. Ryusui's re-translation effort was indeed much needed and was also greatly appreciated by many fans of this game and series in general. Having played through both versions myself, I can say without a doubt that this one is by far the better of the two. Not only has the script been greatly improved upon, but it also adds some nice new menu graphics, intro music and the ability to run.

On the other hand, the numerous re-translations that exist for games such as Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy VI do seem like a massive waste of time. Ted Woolsey's translations are very accurate for the most part and very professionally written. The only people who complain about them are nitpickers who do not represent the opinions of most JRPG fans. I can link to many different message boards from other sites where people complain constantly about why there's no current translation for a game when another already has multiple different translations of it by different people. A lot of them are especially annoyed to see news posts of a game getting re-translated again instead of a new one being worked on.

The same can be said with the fan translation community as well. In this example, Dejap released an amazing translation for Bahamut Lagoon back in the early 2000s that was beloved by many people. Then a re-translation of it was released recently this year that claims to "be better because it uses modern romhacking tools" or whatever. I've played both versions and still prefer the original Dejap version. Now, I'm not saying this as an absolute statement, as it is a matter of personal taste and opinion. What I am trying to say however, is that it seems like a bit of a waste of time to re-translate a game that already has a good translation which exists instead of tackling another game that doesn't even have one to begin with.

Even if a new translation is "slightly better" than the previous existing one, is it really worth the effort? I of course and can't tell others what to do in their spare time, but is it truly not more of a productive use of one's time and effort to focus on translating a new game rather than one that has already been completed years ago? Well anyway, I've got my own translation projects to focus working on behalf of Dynamic-Designs, so I'll be off now.
Thanks for chiming in, Recca.

I have no illusions that the work someone like me does brings even a fraction of the value to the gaming community that the work of someone like you does. You guys who work tirelessly to make games available in new languages are the real heroes as far as I'm concerned. There is no competition.

With use of free time, if we make a line diagram where your kind of activity is on the far extreme end of benevolent use, then you would have simply playing games for personal enjoyment as the least benevolent use of time. What my group is doing would fall somewhere in the middle. We work on precisely what we are most passionate about, to make versions that we feel are better, even if the official releases are not objectively terrible (to the extent of Breath of Fire II). We benefit from the satisfaction of doing that, and some others who share our passion and philosophy for the material benefit as well, but the scope of the value created is nothing like what you all bring to the table.

So, I tip my hat to you, and I'll accept your judgment as valid, but I'd still say that providing some value is better than just consuming and providing no value.

I'll also say that we are open to working on untranslated games in the future. Our group isn't great on the technical end, so we tend to prioritize projects that are technically easier (one of the main reasons why we are now piggy backing on Rod's work on DQI&II). If we were involved with a more skilled hacker and could concentrate our efforts more on the writing end, we would be more open to doing fresh translations. At the same time, we would want to believe in the game we are translating. It would also have to be a game of some kind of quality / artistry / historic value. We don't want to feel like stooges doing unpaid labor that we despise.

Btw, Ryusui's BOF2 translation was the thing that made me dream of getting into this. What an absolute work of art.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Red Soul on June 24, 2021, 05:13:35 pm
On the other hand, the numerous re-translations that exist for games such as Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy VI do seem like a massive waste of time. Ted Woolsey's translations are very accurate for the most part and very professionally written. The only people who complain about them are nitpickers who do not represent the opinions of most JRPG fans. I can link to many different message boards from other sites where people complain constantly about why there's no current translation for a game when another already has multiple different translations of it by different people. A lot of them are especially annoyed to see news posts of a game getting re-translated again instead of a new one being worked on.
Nitpickers are also fans, you know, haha.

Speaking of Chrono Trigger specifically, it made the experience better to me personally. I don't like how inconsistent some things were with the original script (more than anything the "olde english" speech by Frog, when everyone else speaks normally in that era, it made no sense to me and bothered me, even though that's the one aspect of the official translation I liked). This is being addressed by Chrono Trigger Plus it seems, which is great. My dream CT game would incorporate CT+ with the retranslation, even though I know it is impossible.  Also, the whole rock band references don't resonate with me; maybe most were okay with that but I wasn't. 

Maybe nitpickers like accurate scripts, if so, I'm one of them, and while the retranslation might not have superseded the original in terms of consumption, it is still just as justified as the original to exist, in my opinion. Someone went there and did it out of their own accord, that's why it's a hobby and not a paid job.

I don't disagree that still untranslated games should be targeted first, but can anyone really dictate what someone else wishes to do with their time and expertise?

Like I said, I'm not disagreeing with you, but to be part of this hobby you need passion, and there can be no passion if there is no willingness, and willigness disappears as soon as it becomes a chore. Then one just wants to push the project out of the door, and often things become half-hearted and haphazard.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: FCandChill on June 24, 2021, 05:46:09 pm
Intro removal patch for version v1.04:

Code: [Select]
PATCH REMOVED
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: JKPhage on June 24, 2021, 06:55:55 pm
If we were involved with a more skilled hacker and could concentrate our efforts more on the writing end, we would be more open to doing fresh translations. At the same time, we would want to believe in the game we are translating. It would also have to be a game of some kind of quality / artistry / historic value. We don't want to feel like stooges doing unpaid labor that we despise.

To be fair, unless it's an absolute shovelware title, any game that never made it out of Japan (or it's respective country of origin) can arguably be said to have historic value, and all games have at least some level of artistry. Some much more than others, given, but still some none the less. The issue there becomes that we're slowly but surely chipping away at the backlog of SNES/Genesis-MD games and older that haven't been translated. While I know there are more, trying to think of games of that era that still need translation brings up Surging Aura and the Go Go Ackman games and... nothing else to wit. I know there are probably a good handful, but if we're set on translating *every* game of that era, then you're gonna start getting into games that aren't that great or really don't need much work, because it'll all be menus and opening/ending text crawls.

We're starting to hit a point where PS1/Saturn and later titles are looking like the gold mine of untranslated titles that could bring something new and valuable to people. Just off the top of my head I know I'd love to play Velldeselba Senki, Salzburg no Majo, The Holy Dragoons and a couple other PS1 JRPGs, and a quick search of one of my go-to sites for Japanese PS1 games turned up five more on the first page that I had never heard of and think would be awesome to play. The problem is, things jump significantly in complexity once you delve into that era, and the hacking/technical skill required to pull the project off becomes a much higher bar, not to mention the much larger games with way more text, myriad alternate routes and even FMVs that were rampant in the day that would require subtitles being added, which means you have to have someone skilled at video editing and encoding as well.

I'm all for more games getting translated, period. The more that are accessible the better, but we're gonna hit a point sooner than later where all the games of significant merit or story on older platforms are taken care of, and wanting to translate a new game is going to require a step up into the next generation. If you're really looking to work on a project that has a lot of value and deliver something new, you might want to start poking around at people who potentially have the skill to crack PS1 stuff, or start putting feelers out in communities dedicated to game hacking/translation for people who are skilled and/or interested so you can comb through available titles and take your pick from the absolute treasure trove of titles that are there.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 24, 2021, 07:28:39 pm
Intro removal patch for version v1.04:

There are no changes in the intro system since 1.03c version. Wouldn't that be unnecessary?

Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: FCandChill on June 24, 2021, 07:52:08 pm
That's completely unnecessary and could break something.
There are no changes in the intro system since 1.03c version.

Ah, okay. I received a message that the second to last intro removal patch didn't work with the latest version. I guess I should've verified. Thanks for the heads up.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 24, 2021, 07:57:30 pm
Where are you jumping, by the way? It's late and can't check the computer.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: FCandChill on June 24, 2021, 08:00:34 pm
Post removed.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 24, 2021, 08:17:43 pm
The best option is to leave the patch as it is. Lol.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: FCandChill on June 24, 2021, 08:23:41 pm
I prefer the splash screen. I get messages from people to have a patch to remove the splash screen. I do it to help people out. I also remove it under the impression you are okay with it. As said before by you...

No problem if people individually remove the splash screen if it pisses them off. But in the general public release it's convenient to put it. I already showed my reasons for that in another thread. But I'm working in changing it by a static one in the next update (that will be ready in this night).

That being said, I appeciate all of your hard work that goes into the patch and into each update. You don't have to release constant updates to fix bugs in your patch but you do. Not every rom hack does this, which makes this project special.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Piotyr on June 24, 2021, 10:45:30 pm
On the other hand, the numerous re-translations that exist for games such as Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy VI do seem like a massive waste of time. Ted Woolsey's translations are very accurate for the most part and very professionally written. The only people who complain about them are nitpickers who do not represent the opinions of most JRPG fans. I can link to many different message boards from other sites where people complain constantly about why there's no current translation for a game when another already has multiple different translations of it by different people. A lot of them are especially annoyed to see news posts of a game getting re-translated again instead of a new one being worked on.
As far as Woolsey's translations being accurate I did not know that Japan pours soda on graves as a sign of respect, never serves alchol so all pubs are cafés and had to shrink their scripts due to space limitations. I must be nitpicky to like having updated translations without nostalgia or technical limitations getting in the way.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Red Soul on June 24, 2021, 10:52:09 pm
That's completely unnecessary and could break something.
There are no changes in the intro system since 1.03c version.

I really like the static splash screen, Rod, by the way.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 25, 2021, 03:14:58 am
What's a better method of exiting out of this function early?
I think you did it well with 1.03c.
Putting the first line of the Japanese ROM and reverting a couple of jumps to their original form.

But if you do what you put yesterday you're altering the code of the splash routine and if someday someone regreats and wants to go back he will find a non-functional routine.

There is much information in those splashes that even makes reference to the translator, RPGOne team, for bibliographic purposes. People may want to consult them. And they're easily skippable.


Quote from: FCandChill
I also remove it under the impression you are okay with it. As said before by you...
I have no problem people individually remove it. But this is becoming a constant disemboweling of whatever minor update I release, even when I make no change at the splash routine at all!, by altering the internal logic of the routine in an arbitrary way.
And sometimes even with mistakes, in a way that now we don't know if those people that say it doesn't work anymore it's because they copied your last patch or the previous one that jumped to 70A9 position in RAM!, probably not declaring any stack, variable or whatever!, what you yourself said broke the saving game system.




June 25, 2021, 07:13:14 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
So after all this I have been meditating and no, I don't agree anymore all this is done to my patch.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: FCandChill on June 25, 2021, 09:35:50 am
I have no problem people individually remove it. But this is becoming a constant disemboweling of whatever minor update I release, even when I make no change at the splash routine at all!, by altering the internal logic of the routine in an arbitrary way.
And sometimes even with mistakes, in a way that now we don't know if those people that say it doesn't work anymore it's because they copied your last patch or the previous one that jumped to 70A9 position in RAM!, probably not declaring any stack, variable or whatever!, what you yourself said broke the saving game system.

1) The two patches before this one weren't mine, so I technically didn't break the saving feature.
2) I made the last patch out of a misunderstanding in a DM. Apparently, the person was too lazy to patch the latest version, so I apologize for releasing a new patch when there didn't need to be. It won't happen again.
3) People who make these patches aren't going to have in-depth knowledge about this game as you do. You haven't released any source code related to this project or an official means to remove the intro. People who modify this patch to make more translations won't have the source code either. So, most changes in your eyes will be arbitrary and could break things. You also say certain changes could break things, but you haven't provided any concrete examples unless they were provided to you.
4) I can remove all these patches out of respect, but I think it's too little too late. These patchese are already in replies to messages. They've also been shared online too. Basically what I'm saying is, once it's on the internet, it never goes away. Again, I can remove the patches from my forum posts out of respect.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 25, 2021, 10:06:16 am
I don't care the individual people that may have them privately. I just don't want a constant spectacle be made of my constantly updating patch.

Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: FCandChill on June 25, 2021, 10:20:07 am
So if you are so kind to erase the two last ones it's enough for me.

Alright, done. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 25, 2021, 10:25:07 am
Thank you.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: FCandChill on June 25, 2021, 10:27:55 am
No problem. If you have any other posts you want me to remove, let me know.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 25, 2021, 10:49:23 am
No. It's only that. At any moment I may update, the old patches will remain outdated, and also I would prefere to avoid a massive duplicity of versions of this addendum out there, that at the end you don't know which is which and who has made what (if it's the 2.0 version of RPGOne with bugs, if it's a previous version of RPGOne, if it doesn't have bugs, or what).
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 25, 2021, 10:55:57 am
I don’t necessarily think the advent of endless vanity Spanish rewrites is a realistic one. Spanish is not English, and Dragon Quest I&II is not FF6.

But I do think Rod has done right by nearly everyone with the tasteful, aesthetically fitting, non-vertigo inducing splash screen, and continuous public posts with code to break it only serves to rub salt in wounds when he has made his feelings and expectations so clear.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 25, 2021, 04:51:49 pm
non-vertigo inducing splash screen
Hahahahahahahaha.

when he has made his feelings and expectations so clear.
Well, people can't say at least I'm not transparent. I say the things as I see them at any moment.

Spanish is not English
Don't forget we are 500 million native speakers, more or less, distributed in around 23 countries.
Just the number of people that study and learn Spanish is pretty smaller, more comparable to French, but it's growing everyday.
Also it's a language with a very long and large written tradition (not so large like Latin, Arabic or Hebrew, anyway), that lets you access a very abundant literature, much of it of much quality, as well as much recorded material.
That gives you an idea that the possibility someone wants to learn how to ROMhack at any moment and tries to do a translation of whatever game is not small.
We see it everyday in ROMhacking.net community: the number of released translations to Spanish per day is far bigger than the number to French, German, even Portuguese (with Brazil) and other European languages (what for me is a good symptom). Also, translating to English from Japanese is not easy: but we have a bunch, an ocean of translations to English, or games officially in English, to translate to Spanish more or less easily.

Who is going to invest that required amount of knowledge, time and skill to rewrite an RPG translation? Not many if the pre-existing work(s) are of quality.

The problem here in my point of view comes with those self-alledged translators that use automatic translation software (wave?) for generating patches of poor quality, for those games that don't offer much difficulty in terms of character table decyphering and font editing, as is the example of Dragon Quest 1+2, in a constant search for self-protagonism and visibility in the community that in my point of view adds more noise than something valuable or useful.
And it's not my wish to contribute to that or feed it in any way if it's in my hand, I'm sorry.

I think a phenomenon like this doesn't exist in the English speaking translator community, does it? Correct me if I'm wrong. I may agree more or less with retranslations I see here, and their need, but they're mostly serious. I may not agree with SkyRender FF6 retranslation (for example), but I have played it years ago, it's playable and offers an acceptable experience. Same for Bahamut Lagoon one, that Recca has mentioned. It was unnecessary, but serious.


Is there a point to re-translating a game that already has a completed translation? The answer is sometimes, but usually no.
P.S.: By the way, completely agree with Recca in everything mentioned.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 25, 2021, 06:38:24 pm
Don't forget we are 500 million native speakers, more or less, distributed in around 23 countries.
Apologies if I sounded like I was insulting the Spanish language itself. Far from. I was saying that I just haven't seen this tendency for lots of rewrites in any other language than English.

Quote
The problem here in my point of view comes with those self-alledged translators that use automatic translation software (wave?) for generating patches of poor quality, for those games that don't offer much difficulty in terms of character table decyphering and font editing, as is the example of Dragon Quest 1+2, in a constant search for self-protagonism and visibility in the community that in my point of view adds more noise than something valuable or useful.
And it's not my wish to contribute to that or feed it in any way if it's in my hand, I'm sorry.
While part of me agrees with this danger, I also stop and think about how I got started a few years ago. There was a DQ1 text editor. It had far more limitations and bugs than actual value, but it made it easy for me to get started. I used that to produce a very unprofessional initial version of my Delocalized retranslation, at that time based on a retranslation text document online by someone named x_loto. (subsequently I learned that his work was full of errors and at this point, there is really no trace of it in ours) As I became more and more serious, learned a little real hacking, and forged close friendships with people who happened to have the skills I was missing, I was able to continuously rework that pathetic initial retranslation into something I'm extremely proud of. So, while I initially probably brought the community very little in my contribution, I think that something grew out of it. And also, people supported my aspirations from the very beginning, in spite of my grievous limitations. There are some prominent figures who were among them. So you get my point. Not every newbie taking advantage of easy tools will fit this stereotype.

Quote
I think a phenomenon like this doesn't exist in the English speaking translator community, does it? Correct me if I'm wrong. I may agree more or less with retranslations I see here, and their need, but they're mostly serious. I may not agree with SkyRender FF6 retranslation (for example), but I have played it years ago, it's playable and offers an acceptable experience. Same for Bahamut Lagoon one, that Recca has mentioned. It was unnecessary, but serious.
I agree that they tend to all be pretty serious, and I respect that. None of the FF6 retranslations give me exactly what I want, and I find that frustrating with their being so many, but in spite of all the confusion the diversity has caused, I can't fault any of them for not being serious.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: JKPhage on June 25, 2021, 08:06:03 pm
Hahahahahahahaha.

Nice attitude.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: tc on June 26, 2021, 02:14:57 am
Nice attitude.

Rewrites are a touchy subject around here. Knowing how this topic has rambled on, there's been another 9000 script edits for Chrono Trigger.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: JKPhage on June 26, 2021, 02:24:14 am
Rewrites are a touchy subject around here. Knowing how this topic has rambled on, there's been another 9000 script edits for Chrono Trigger.

Read the context. Someone pointed out that the splash could cause vertigo and he laughed. He also laughed earlier at the suggestion that it could trigger epilepsy.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Red Soul on June 26, 2021, 02:46:29 am
I don't think Rod means any ill with that laugh, he probably thought it was a genuinely funny comment.
I also though the non-static splash screen was quite the sensory overload, but tne static one looks great.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 26, 2021, 02:49:48 am
Hell... I *intended* it as a funny comment, and I was glad he laughed.
Let's relax a little, please.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 26, 2021, 04:28:44 am
Let's take life with a little of humour. Humour is important in life!
Nice attitude.
I have a humouristic attitude towards life!

Quote from: Chicken Knife
I just haven't seen this tendency for lots of rewrites in any other language than English.
I think that's because of the difficulty of the Japanese language and its script. Rewriting is always easier than translating a new thing from Japanese from scratch.

But English uses Latin alphabet with nearly a 60% of Latin words. So making a new translation is always easier.

Quote from: Chicken Knife
Apologies if I sounded like I was insulting the Spanish language itself.
Of course you didn't sound like that.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: nejimakipiyo on June 26, 2021, 09:07:36 am
Although you requested a full list of errors all at once, I feel the need to bring up this specific error sooner.

(https://i.imgur.com/eVCE4uM.png)

It looks like a letter overshot the dialogue box and caused a minor text bug.

This could easily be resolved by using a proper translation for the object: Stone of Sunlight. :P It's a single object, not multiple.

(BTW, I've gotten to Rimuldar and back to Radatome again for magic key doors, and so far my list of translation errors is at 30. This doesn't include the lines with really bad English. I'm focusing on the translation alone.)
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 26, 2021, 10:31:39 am
That "t" overflow was repaired already, I don't remember if in the current version that is released or in the new one that will be uploaded probably this evening or tomorrow, when I have time to check and fix the DQ1 level 30 bug (RPGone's version doesn't let you save the game after reaching level 30 in DQ1, where the Japanese version does let you; I think it's easily fixable; I hope so).

Due to a matter of editorial respect, I'm leaving RPGOne team's translation decisions unchanged. That's not my task, just to make fully playable without glitches that historical translation (that I think is a good job even though there're those little freedoms or licenses).

By the way, how do you difference Stones and Stone in plural or singular in Japanese there? Usually Japanese doesn't tend to specify plural or singular in most of words, except for some names of people, does it?
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: travel27 on June 26, 2021, 12:12:06 pm
Some people can't exist unless they have something to complain about, just ignore them.  The patch is fantastic and the intro is no more than a second.  Look away if you don't like it, play the game without the patch, make your own patch, play a different game, rapidly push the B button and close your eyes, etc.  Tons of solutions, all of them easier than wasting energy to complain here.  I don't mind it. I check my Facebook or emails quickly during the intro screens of most games since most people are capable of multi-tasking these days so just do that.  Seems like the easiest solution if the patch is otherwise acceptable to people.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Red Soul on June 26, 2021, 05:33:56 pm
By the way, how do you difference Stones and Stone in plural or singular in Japanese there? Usually Japanese doesn't tend to specify plural or singular in most of words, except for some names of people, does it?

Probably context is required. Playing through the scene and checking things out.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: nejimakipiyo on June 26, 2021, 09:37:21 pm
By the way, how do you difference Stones and Stone in plural or singular in Japanese there? Usually Japanese doesn't tend to specify plural or singular in most of words, except for some names of people, does it?

Exactly as Red Soul said, and like I explained before with God vs Gods, it's context. You cannot arbitrarily assign a plural to a word because the word can technically be plural. When you have to name something important like a legendary item, it's important to gather the context before deciding on a name. In this case, here is what we have for context:
1. When you open the treasure chest to get the Stone of Sunlight, you see an image of a single orange stone rising from the treasure chest.
2. The official art for the item looks like this.

(https://i.imgur.com/RweGlTx.png)


Due to a matter of editorial respect, I'm leaving RPGOne team's translation decisions unchanged.

Yes, you should leave their wrong decisions alone. It suits them.

Speaking of which, I noticed you put our translation "Eyeba" in this. Maybe you agree that our translation is better than leaving it untranslated. But I'm really not happy with someone picking and choosing bits and pieces of our translation that they like, to put in a poor quality translation. I'd appreciate if you remove Eyeba and substitute in an official name for that monster. Or make up something yourself.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Red Soul on June 26, 2021, 10:05:18 pm
Speaking of which, I noticed you put our translation "Eyeba" in this. Maybe you agree that our translation is better than leaving it untranslated. But I'm really not happy with someone picking and choosing bits and pieces of our translation that they like, to put in a poor quality translation. I'd appreciate if you remove Eyeba and substitute in an official name for that monster. Or make up something yourself.

Is that a shortening of some sort for aiboru or something of that nature? I haven't seen the monster, but this occurred to me.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Masaru on June 26, 2021, 10:36:22 pm
If there's a translation fix for DQ3 in the works

It's there a way to restore the asterisk? For some reason they got rid of it in the DQ Translations patch
(https://i.imgur.com/Xj7rhXJ.jpg)
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 27, 2021, 05:54:41 am
I'd appreciate if you remove Eyeba and substitute in an official name for that monster. Or make up something yourself.

Hahahahahahaha.
I just saw that enemy name, Meda, was untranslated, what makes no sense, and following my current criterium of translating whatever Japanese text remained untranslated in RPGOne's translation (since my patch intends to make it fully playable), I translated it by what I considered is its most equivalent translation, that is Eyeball, by removing some letter in the tail, since the name Meda is a cut name in Japanese, too.
So it's not "our translation". It's the translation.
And I didn't have much space avalaible in names strings for putting something else, anyway.

So there are not many other choices.
Not that you have invented the only possible translation of that word to English. You're going to patent the dictionary?

So I'm afraid that's not going to happen.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 27, 2021, 06:19:45 am
Hahahahahahaha.
I just saw that enemy name, Meda, was untranslated, what makes no sense, and following my current criterium of translating whatever Japanese text remained untranslated in RPGOne's translation (since my patch intends to make it fully playable), I translated it by what I considered is its most equivalent translation, that is Eyeball, by removing some letter in the tail, since the name Meda is a cut name in Japanese, too.
So it's not "our translation". It's the translation.
And I didn't have much space avalaible in names strings for putting something else, anyway.

So there are not many other choices.
Not that you have invented the only possible translation of that word to English. You're going to patent the dictionary?

So I'm afraid that's not going to happen.
And you didn't even have the decency to give credit in your readme, acting like you came up with this yourself after we literally spelled out *our* creative thought process for arriving at this name right here in this thread.

Your fickle and egotistical behavior really is insufferable at times.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 27, 2021, 06:24:11 am
What!?
For a word I translated myself looking up in dictionaries??
How come??
It'd be even offending to mention someone just for a word!!
And how many other people have ever mentioned me things that I've fixed without being officially in the team of betatesters of the project (what implies playing the whole game and continuously reporting me whatever error they see even with screenshots! Those are the people I'm mentioning, due to matters of space, brevity and many other factors!)

Your fickleness and ego really is insufferable at times.
This is surrealistic, seriously!
Am I dreaming??
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 27, 2021, 06:27:34 am
Someone noting bugs and issues like that is different than co-opting a unique name produced by others with neither permission or credits.

The real fact is that we think Eyeba is far too elegant for a translation where the translators had no professional capacity for coming up with such a thing on their own.

But being respectful about it towards us would have probably made stomaching it easier.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 27, 2021, 06:34:48 am
"An unique name"??? Lol.
How many possible ways are there to translate Me (Eye) in Japanese, and Tama (Ball)?

Yours is also my alternate translation for the enemy Medalord like Eyebalord (that you have never mentioned in this forum)?

I do have capacity for coming up with those names by myself. I did it constantly in my Spanish translation. Why would this one be different if I see a Japanese name had been left untranslated?
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 27, 2021, 06:48:15 am
"An unique name"??? Lol.
How many possible ways are there to translate Me (Eye) in Japanese, and Tama (Ball)?

Yours is also my alternate translation for the enemy Medalord like Eyebalord (that you have never mentioned in this forum)?

I do have capacity for coming up with those things. I did it constantly in my Spanish translation. Why would this one be different if I see a Japanese name had been left untranslated?
Nob Ogaswara attempted to take a more faithful approach to Dragon Quest with the GBC series, and the best he came up with was Eyeder.

You behave like Eyeba is so obvious, but the fact that Meda references the word for medama is not so obvious to your typical fan translator who relies almost completely on dictionaries.

Our list of unique spell names functions the same way. In the majority of cases, we translated the Japanese base word (which was never accurately translated in other versions of the spell names) and we contort them in the same way. They nearly all function like our translation of Eyeba. Yet RPGONE just arbitrarily held to prexisting, arbitrary localization choices. Yet in other matters they "attempted" fresh, Japanese-loyal translations. What is the criteria they used which to follow? What is the criteria you use in what to change versus what to keep? I really don't think there is any criteria...
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 27, 2021, 06:50:36 am
You behave like Eyeba is so obvious, but the fact that Meda references the word for eyeball is not so obvious to your typical fan translator who relies almost completely on dictionaries.
メーダ
It's obvious since the moment that "da" ダ appears written in katakana and not in hiragana だ, as it would be mandatory if it was a normal Japanese word.

What is the criteria you use in what to change versus what to keep? I really don't think there is any criteria...
Whatever non-translated (in Japanese), and whatever glitched. I think it's clear by taking a look to the readme, and the list of corrections.
What doesn't include changing gods to God, nor Stones of Sunlight to Stone of Sunlight, for example.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: nejimakipiyo on June 27, 2021, 06:58:05 am
The whole name is in katakana. They typically don't mix the two, so having メ―だ would be a very strange name even for Japanese people to read. Your explanation of how you're coming up with the name Eyeba is very flimsy considering you didn't change it until Chicken Knife explained it.

I will no longer be giving you my list of translation errors, if this is the way you're reacting. I do not trust you. If and when I complete that extensive list, it will be published in a Delocalized thread only, alongside publishing of our patch if we choose to do it.

This is the last interaction I'll have with you, because you really are insufferable. I've thought it for a long time, but using our translation without credit is really the last straw. If you're as capable at Japanese as you claim to be, and capable at English as you claim to be, you'll be able to find and fix those numerous errors yourself. If you can't, you should stop making erroneous claims.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 27, 2021, 07:02:03 am
I didn't change it because I was not focused in changing the script, just correcting glitches, and I had not noticed there was that untranslated name (that anyway I had translated months before to Spanish with no complication). In the moment I notice I start searching for the most suitable translation. I know already Me is Eye in Japanese, and Tama / -Dama is ball, so Eyeball, a little shortened, makes all the sense of the world. I just doubted about what spelling was better, and more understandable, either Eyebo or Eyeba.

This is 2+2=4.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 27, 2021, 07:02:44 am
Whatever non-translated (in Japanese), and whatever glitched. I think it's clear by taking a look to the readme, and the list of corrections.
What doesn't include changing gods to God, nor Stones of Sunlight to Stone of Sunlight, for example.
It's for the best that you leave the errors related to lack of thought, lack of gathering context, so that the translation remains what it was. It should not be artificially improved based on our commentary resulting from our work on a better translation.

And their Meda was not an accidental occurrence of something they didn't translate. It was deliberate. Transliterating was the best thing they could produce based on their level of skill and their (lack of) commitment to research.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 27, 2021, 07:06:16 am
It's for the best that you leave the errors related to lack of thought, lack of gathering context, so that the translation remains what it was.
So you may find a self-justification to make your rewrite, no?
Because I guess there's not much more than those little things left, and I have removed you one of them without noticing, Lol. Just by not leaving a word in row Japanese and putting something.

You're funny, guys.
You want to have the full collection of Dragon Quest's made by yourselves, Lol.

At least if you were Welsh, northern Scottish or something you could translate them to Welsh, Gaelic or something like that. Haha. That'd be very interesting.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 27, 2021, 07:12:06 am
So you may find a self-justification to make your rewrite, no?
Because I guess there's not much more than those little things left
To sound like someone else for a moment:
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!

You're funny, guys.
You want to have the full collection of Dragon Quest's made by yourselves, Lol.
Square-Enix would be smart to pay us, if it wasn't for the fact that the mainstream English audience has become entirely addicted to their constant artificial puns and ridiculous accents.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 27, 2021, 07:15:38 am
How you don't want me to laugh, you both have over reacted, calling me selfish and "thief". It was completely unimagined, and unexpected.
Really, those laughs transcriptions are a 2% of how they are in real life right now.

Quote from: Chicken Knife
Square-Enix would be smart to pay us, if it wasn't for the fact that the mainstream English audience has become entirely addicted to their constant artificial puns and ridiculous accents.

Hahaha.
You don't like their "thou"s.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Piotyr on June 27, 2021, 07:16:22 am
Aren't some of the puns in the raw? Seems a very Japanese thing to do.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 27, 2021, 07:20:17 am
Aren't some of the puns in the raw? Seems a very Japanese thing to do.
1/10th of them, and usually when there is a pun in Japanese, it was ironically rendered without a pun in these new official translations

To quote my native Japanese speaking friend and partner who played Dragon Quest in Japan as a child, when he first encountered our contemporary English versions:

"They have turned Dragon Quest into a joke"
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 27, 2021, 07:27:55 am
1/10th of them, and usually when there is a pun in Japanese, it was ironically rendered without a pun in these new translations

How exagerated you are! You don't like the slightest improvement over the original in a translation!
What kind of hardcore Japanese fanboy-ism is this?
You are the kind of people that would replace "son of a submariner" or "welcome to my barbecue" by "bummer" and "burn 'till you die" (making it loose personality and bright)!

Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 27, 2021, 07:31:47 am
How exagerated you are! You don't like the slightest improvement over the original in a translation!
What kind of hardcore Japanese fanboy-ism is this?
You are the kind of people that would replace "son of a submariner" or "welcome to my barbecue" by "bummer" and "burn 'till you die"!
We believe in faithful translations that do not take wild liberties. But when we offer our faithful translations, unlike many of those of our disposition who have gone before us, we make it sound great.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Piotyr on June 27, 2021, 07:35:18 am
Kinda hate when people "spice up" translations honestly. A good example is the old smt3 nocturne translation that rendered yes/no prompts to various overblown reactions.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 27, 2021, 07:36:24 am
What kind of hardcore Japanese fanboy-ism is this?
Correction: we are hardcore Yuji Horii fanboys. If we were dealing with other Japanese text, it's very likely we would not be so passionate or protective.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Piotyr on June 27, 2021, 07:41:57 am
To go off topic just to cool down this topic, have you played the Dragon Quest 5 ps2 translation? How is it? I am hoping for a better translation of 3 snes (tho 3 snes is decent) and 4 ds or psx soon
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 27, 2021, 07:52:08 am
To go off topic just to cool down this topic, have you played the Dragon Quest 5 ps2 translation? How is it? I am hoping for a better translation of 3 snes (tho 3 snes is decent) and 4 ds or psx soon
We haven't dissected it, and we haven't done any serious work on 5 that lead us to reference it. All I can tell you is some very high level reactions. I've played it a couple times before I got into the fan translation game. (I have different eyes now) Nejimakipiyo has read through some chunks of its text on a sample basis recently.

At the time, I thought it came across as pretty clear and professional. Probably more buttoned up as far as quality control than the DeJap / Partial Translations SFC script. However, I felt that Dejap / Partial Translations produced something that felt a little warmer and more vibrant.  I adore Dragon Quest 5, and I'm very curious how my perceptions will evolve when we begin work on it.

Nejimakipiyo felt that the PS2 DQ Translations script gave the impression of competence, but their reactions are based on very little so far. I believe they are interested in playing that version at some point in the near future.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Piotyr on June 27, 2021, 07:55:45 am
Yeah was just asking about DQ translations. I am guessing the ds version has accents a plenty and will make me cry
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 27, 2021, 07:56:43 am
Yeah was just asking about DQ translations. I am guessing the ds version has accents a plenty and will make me cry
It's probably when this contemporary localization team were at the absolute height of their "spicing up". So, yeah.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Piotyr on June 27, 2021, 07:59:36 am
I hope someone uses the new patch for dq4ds that puts the party banter back in to delocalize
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 27, 2021, 08:06:09 am
I hope someone uses the new patch for dq4ds that puts the party banter back in to delocalize
In spite of wanting to do the whole series, there's no way it can happen with the way I live. I often secretly wish I was one of those single guys who lives in a basement. Then yes, we would do the whole series. :laugh:

If anyone wants to take inspiration and follow the mold of our work, then by all means (with due credit of course).
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Piotyr on June 27, 2021, 08:09:56 am
DQ7 and 8 for 3ds scares me, will they be super spicey? At least I have 5 and 6 before then
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 27, 2021, 08:16:52 am
Ff7 and 8 for 3ds scares me, will they be super spicey? At least I have 5 and 6 before then
I think you mean DQ7 & 8.

All the contemporary scripts since the release of DQ8 for PS2 are essentially the same. Yes, with slightly varying degrees, they will be spicey.

But let me step back for a moment and say something mature.

You can still capture the core essence of Dragon Quest and Horii's incredible story telling in spite of those elements we find incongruous and artificial. I'm playing through DQ9 right now with all that added flavor, and I can still love the game, and I'm very grateful it was released in English. There was a time that we didn't even get translations, so even a flawed version of a Dragon Quest game is still something to treasure. So as much as I despise the elements I have gone on about endlessly, and as much as I feel that our work improves the games overall, we are still not pulling a Breath of Fire II Ryusui script in restoring something from unplayable to playable. We should have some measure of gratitude that we have playable versions of every main series game but X and PSX IV.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Piotyr on June 27, 2021, 08:18:38 am
I think you mean DQ7 & 8.

All the contemporary scripts since the release of DQ8 for PS2 are essentially the same. Yes, with slightly varying degrees they will be spicey.

But let me step back for a moment and say something mature.

You can still capture the core essence of Dragon Quest and Horii's incredible story telling in spite of those elements we find incongruous and artificial. I'm playing through DQ9 right now with all that added flavor, and I can still love the game, and I'm very grateful it was released in English. There was a time that we didn't even get translations, so even a flawed version of a Dragon Quest game is something to treasure. So as much as I despise the elements I have gone on about endlessly, and as much as I feel that our work improves the games overall, we are still not pulling a Breath of Fire II in restoring something from unplayable to unplayable. We should have some measure of gratitude that we have playable versions of every game but X.
I played to the post game of 9, very fun but hoping for a remake so we get online features without hacks
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: tc on June 27, 2021, 01:02:10 pm
To sound like someone else for a moment:
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Square-Enix would be smart to pay us, if it wasn't for the fact that the mainstream English audience has become entirely addicted to their constant artificial puns and ridiculous accents.

Pardon my cultural ignorance, but isn't that because Japanese writing in general tends to have qualities off-putting to English audiences unfamiliar with it? Their particular systems of honorifics and politeness have no smooth analogue in the English language.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Special on June 27, 2021, 04:13:05 pm
Due to a matter of editorial respect, I'm leaving RPGOne team's translation decisions unchanged. That's not my task, just to make fully playable without glitches that historical translation (that I think is a good job even though there're those little freedoms or licenses).

I'm behind on this thread and have no intention of keeping up because most of it is LOL at this point (Chicken Knife and co. should probably leave and circle jerk elsewhere...), but I just want to give a shout-out to Rod for this quote and hope he sticks by it! All these re-translation are God awful terrible with maybe like a 2% chance of them being good (like the Ryusui BoF one for example).

The only reason I care about these old and (often terrible by today's standards) games like one this nowadays is because of childhood memories of playing them, and these re-translation (Chicken Knife and co.) that they like to do just completely ruin that. Tried playing that recent DQ: Monsters re-translation and it was totally ruined by completely different names for almost everything, all printed strategy guides are ruined, GameFAQ's walk-throughs are now hard to follow, etc. I'll take typos and inaccuracies any day over what we got with that DQ: Monsters one...

More people need to do what Rod does here and just stick to making them fully playable without glitches.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 27, 2021, 05:47:07 pm
All these re-translation are God awful terrible with maybe like a 2% chance of them being good (like the Ryusui BoF one for example).

I could not agree more!!

and hope he sticks by it!
I swear I will!

More people need to do what Rod does here and just stick to making them fully playable without glitches.
I hope to be preaching with actions.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: nejimakipiyo on June 27, 2021, 06:15:53 pm
The only reason I care about these old and (often terrible by today's standards) games like one this nowadays is because of childhood memories of playing them, and these re-translation (Chicken Knife and co.) that they like to do just completely ruin that. Tried playing that recent DQ: Monsters re-translation and it was totally ruined by completely different names for almost everything, all printed strategy guides are ruined, GameFAQ's walk-throughs are now hard to follow, etc. I'll take typos and inaccuracies any day over what we got with that DQ: Monsters one...

If you think having an accurate translation ruins a game, you are very much not the target audience of our work. And it's ok not to be! As Chicken Knife said, we don't expect everybody to like what we do. But there are people who appreciate translation accuracy and authenticity, and those people deserve to have good translations.

I played Dragon Warrior Monsters in its official English form over 20 times as a kid/teen. It's my favourite game of all time, not hyperbole. And I never knew what I was missing out on until I played it in Japanese. Then I managed to kick my nostalgia in the ass to create a flawless translation (with Chicken Knife's help, of course) and a brand new guide to go with it so that people who rely on guides to play would have an obstacle removed. If you still don't like it regardless of that, the problem isn't with our translation.


More people need to do what Rod does here and just stick to making them fully playable without glitches.

We definitely need more people squishing bugs, but imo we need more people improving translations too. There are still many games I refuse to play in English because of translations with too much stylization or fan translations with poor English.
To each their own. That's why having options is important. :)
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: tc on June 27, 2021, 08:24:36 pm
I'm behind on this thread and have no intention of keeping up because most of it is LOL at this point (Chicken Knife and co. should probably leave and circle jerk elsewhere...), but I just want to give a shout-out to Rod for this quote and hope he sticks by it! All these re-translation are God awful terrible with maybe like a 2% chance of them being good (like the Ryusui BoF one for example).

The only reason I care about these old and (often terrible by today's standards) games like one this nowadays is because of childhood memories of playing them, and these re-translation (Chicken Knife and co.) that they like to do just completely ruin that. Tried playing that recent DQ: Monsters re-translation and it was totally ruined by completely different names for almost everything, all printed strategy guides are ruined, GameFAQ's walk-throughs are now hard to follow, etc. I'll take typos and inaccuracies any day over what we got with that DQ: Monsters one...

More people need to do what Rod does here and just stick to making them fully playable without glitches.

If you don't like Horii's work, fine. Don't criticize the translator over the writer's decisions.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: saldite on June 28, 2021, 08:25:33 am
Yeah was just asking about DQ translations. I am guessing the ds version has accents a plenty and will make me cry
Just dropping in to comment on this a bit off-topically, but I'm really amazed with how much shit DQ4 DS gets, that for some reason it's a popular sentiment that the localization team got "better" with 5DS. Like, opinions on the accents and colorization aside (not a huge fan of the direction of liberties taken with the DQ games either in the official releases), with DQ4, most of the accents and stuff were at least Eurasian in origin and were of a kind where I could look at them and go, "yeah, that kind of fits in a western fantasy, i'm okay with this, i guess."

DQ5, like Chicken Knife said, is absolutely bonkers the decisions they made and I'm surprised more people aren't pissy about 5. Off the top of my head:
Spoiler:
  • A whole town of people who talk like stoners for no reason because DUDE TREES LMAO
  • A character who talks like Ned Flanders complete with diddly-di-dos
  • Making a key character talk like Slowpoke Rodriguez because... Uh...
  • IN SOVIET RUSSIA, LOCALIZED VILLAINS MAKES YAKOV SMIRNOFF JOKES ABOUT YOU

Special Mention:
Spoiler:
I hate the goddamn Count Uptaten joke so fucking much its unreal

The other localized games I can deal with or, at times, even really like some of their localization decisions, but 5 really is just bleh.

@Rod, More on topic: I'm sure you're probably already aware with DQ3 whenever you go to do it, but it looks like status effect messages (icons?) are broken in the English one. It's never really a big issue since I can usually tell who's been hit with what just from the enemy I'm fighting, but I know being dazzled and silenced (StopSpell) give broken text on the character info in battle.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 28, 2021, 10:17:05 am
(Chicken Knife and co. should probably leave and circle jerk elsewhere...)
In spite of this being an absolute troll comment, yes, I probably should have ditched this negative thread a long time ago. Much apologies for wasted breath. I tend to invest far too much discussion in vain hopes that individuals will come to broader & more inclusive perspectives. What an utter waste of energy & time.

The spitefulness in this community continues to be lamentable, whether it be from content consumers who never produced anything, complaining about works that don't fit their preferences, or from content creators (who do very similar works in this case) complaining about and diminishing works that others do. It is baffling, and very unconducive to the continued vibrancy and productivity of this community.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Felipefpl on June 28, 2021, 11:23:31 am
RodMerida - suggestion: for a cosmetic reason instead of the way the changelog is now it would be nice if it was like this:

1.01 - This was the first stable version of this patch. It fixes an issue when searching things with the Hero dead, that happened in the 1.0 version.

1.02 - Fixes one more bug left from the RPGOne's translation. If, after Rolando falls ill due to his curse in the inn of Beranule, the protagonist died, and we try to search something, the name of the princess appears like "do,,,R" instead "Linda", "Maria", "Airin" or whatever name she has assigned in that game.

It also replaces one misnaming of the princess Laura, in the RPGOne's translation, as princess Gwaelin, at the beginning of DQ1.

1.03 - Not necessary to press three times the A button when making field magic spells anymore.

1.03a - It replaces the key item name "Ball of Light" by "Light Orb" in the whole game.

1.03c - Splash screen replaced to a milder one.

- Item name "Statue of Evil" in inventory is unified to "Eye of Malroth", how it's mentioned in dialogs, to avoid confusions.

- Consequently, final boss name Shidor passes to Malroth.

- Interrupted message "Oh, [name], it seems you've died... in battle!", that appeared like "Oh, [name], it seems you've di... in battle!" fixed, and erased the code that made its first line pass quickly.

- Added double "L" to "Firebal" spell name, that passes to "Fireball".

- Removed unnecessary spaces after spell names in battle, when learning new spells.

- An ENTER code added in the messages that appear after using the field spells Heal and HealMore, to avoid the name "Samantha" makes text window be overflown.

- Removed unnecessary spaces at the end of some few item names, like Torch, Club, Lithograph.

- Untranslated enemy name Meda (shortened version of Medama, "Eye Ball") changed to Eyeba.

- Enemy name "Kiss Dragon" fixed to "Kith Dragon".

- Typo "mircale" fixed to "miracle" in "if you hold your statue over your head, it's said a miracle occurs."

1.03d - Due to having removed the bug requiring to press an extra time A-Button when using field spells from the RPGOne's translation, there was a text overflow when using Antidote over someone healthy, as a field spell, too. This version fixes it.

1.04 - Fixed a bug that made the amount of money stored in the vault be misinformed, when this was bigger than 65535 gold pieces, giving the player the wrong idea the bank gold counter had been restarted and we had lost our money, that we could extract back anyway.

- Many little errors of text windows overflow by one or to characters fixed.

- Some garbage symbols added to the hero's name in two soldiers' dialogs at the end of DQ2, in the throne room, fixed.

1.05 - Fixed the bug in Dragon Quest 1 that didn't let you save the game after reaching level 30.

- Fixed the bug in Dragon Quest 2 that blocked the game if the Descendant's Orb was used after having defeated Hargon.

- Fixed a misnaming bug when using the Descendant's Orb after having defeated Hargon, that could make the name of the prince of
Cannock or the princess be repeated twice, instead the Hero's name being mentioned; text overflow by 2 letters, in this dialog, also fixed.

- Wrong pointer that made some Dragon Quest 2 villagers tell you "open that treasure chest" in the middle of a city, after having defeated Hargon, fixed.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 28, 2021, 12:32:49 pm
Hmmm.
The versions listed at the bottom contain changes that are summarizable in the list of characteristics of the patch above.

When a version adds new characteristics to the main list, that are not includable in the list above, I put them after these ones so the reader may discover them quickly and he really learns to appreciate the achievements of this patch in its full extension.

Anyway you sort of made a point; let me think a little about how I could re-order the thing for next readme update.


June 28, 2021, 12:37:03 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
By the way, in case nobody has noticed, there is a new update of this patch (1.05a) that removes the so controversial automatic spinning in the famous cracktro splash screen (that is optional since version 1.03c; it requires pressing SELECT in the static splash with DQ2 art to be activated).

I hope this definitely ends any remaining point controversy for once and ever.

June 28, 2021, 12:50:17 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
but it looks like status effect messages (icons?) are broken in the English one.
That's a really tough one.
I'd say it happens more in battles than in the field menu, since it doesn't happen with all altered effects, and effects where it does, like "sleep", finish once the fight is over.

The difficulty of fixing this is how to find them inside the ROM, since they're either isolated letters, or non-alphabetical characters.

For example, "sleep" symbol appears sort of like " g’ ". How am I supposed to find that?
There is another that appears like "W". But you can't imagine how many "W" bytes appear during the whole DQ3 ROM, even as part of the SNES machine code.
It's crazy to try to find that just by searching or looking randomly. It's a 6MB expanded ROM, that is: around 6 million characters.

So the only solution left would be through debugging, but in game debugging a single character printing that won't happen whenever you want in the battle is really difficult.
Honestly, I don't if I will ever be able to find and change this.
At least if these broken symbols didn't correspond with letters from the alphabet I could redraw them.

If anybody has a clue...

Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Ether on June 28, 2021, 12:52:06 pm
I've been lurking this topic since it was first posted, and I've held a lot of my feelings and thoughts about the topics being discussed to myself, because these thoughts are invariably intertwined with criticisms for specific projects and project creators. I did not feel comfortable, really, in voicing these criticisms, out of a respect for the work being done, and as a fellow lover of Dragon Quest. Chicken Knife and his cohorts have dropped all pretenses of decorum and I can no longer hold my tongue. As a student of French, English, Japanese, an ardent lover and defender of Dragon Quest, a supporter of fan translations and projects since before most of the people in this topic could probably read, and as a relatively personally and professionally accomplished writer believe me when I say it is a huge sin to slag off another writer so shamelessly, as Chicken Knife and nejimakipiyo have done in this topic. The 12 pages of this disastrous topic have been a roller coaster to read, from casual bigotry to earnest and heartfelt adulation and gratitude, a lot of different view points have been expressed. The one and only common trait shared by the posters in this topic is that just about everyone wants something from Rod Merida. People want him to remove his splashes, to start on new projects, to fix bugs in other Dragon Quest games, or consent to letting them use his hard-work as a base for their vanity projects. As someone who has been playing SNES fan translations since they were first published on the internet I cannot express how deep my gratitude is to Rod Merida for his Fix to Dragon Quest I+II. It is a tremendous gift to receive as a community that has had to suffer with a translation, pleasing to read though it may be, unfortunately fraught with many bugs. For myself and everyone else that has yet to experience DQI+II SFC I thank you from the bought of my heart. Now, on to my thoughts and criticism of the philosophy and general attitudes of Chicken Knife and nejimakipiyo.

Here's a small example of the magnanimity expressed by them in this topic, as they correspond with someone who has done something truly of value and requiring skill and time, the fixing of many previously unresearched bugs, in a very popular translation.
This is the last interaction I'll have with you, because you really are insufferable. I've thought it for a long time
Your fickle and egotistical behavior really is insufferable at times.
I'd normally be happy to explain, but our previous correspondence demonstrates how non-existent your interest is in understanding.

It's hard for me to put into word the lamentation I feel reading these things, but luckily I don't have to, a fellow writer has done that for me.

The spitefulness in this community continues to be lamentable, whether it be from content consumers who never produced anything, complaining about works that don't fit their preferences, or from content creators (who do very similar works in this case) complaining about and diminishing works that others do. It is baffling, and very unconducive to the continued vibrancy and productivity of this community.

Well said, moving on to my next point.

Since the concept and practice of fan translations were invented, the idea of retranslating, re-localizing, or the current in vogue misnomer: delocalizing, has existed alongside it. Usually these projects start with an editorial sensibility, aiming to fix various grammar or typographical mistakes. Not always, not invariably, but quite often these projects, well intentioned as they may be, become total failures from a narrative aesthetic sensibility, because of minor obsessions and an application of a wholly mistaken ideology. This ideology of "delocalizing" or making a translation that is "true" or "authentic" is completely false, and totally impossible to accomplish. Translation of idiosyncratic works of this level of sophistication and style requires, even if it is small, some localization. Contextual terms, idioms, words that have no translation, nonsense words, etc. all require localization, and we're just talking about the language at the most basic structural level. With languages so completely different in their roots and composition it is also invariable that you must localize less structural things as well, like sentence composition, as a narrative and aesthetic requirement. This is true for languages that are much closer to English, as well. It is impossible to unmarry the need to localize parts of your translation, and Chicken Knife and nejimakipiyo knows this for a fact, but choose to invoke the "authenticity" of their work as a shield from criticism. In fact they often weaponize this position to attack anyone leveling criticism at them. Even worse, they fallaciously invoke Horii-san to give the weight of authority to their localizations.

If you think having an accurate translation ruins a game, you are very much not the target audience of our work. And it's ok not to be! As Chicken Knife said, we don't expect everybody to like what we do. But there are people who appreciate translation accuracy and authenticity, and those people deserve to have good translations.

I managed to kick my nostalgia in the ass to create a flawless translation (with Chicken Knife's help, of course) and a brand new guide to go with it so that people who rely on guides to play would have an obstacle removed. If you still don't like it regardless of that, the problem isn't with our translation.

I love Horii-san's style of writing, but it is an impossibility to impart it's whole substance to an English translation, because that's just now how translation and localization work. There is no formation of words that you could ever make with English characters that would justify you using the creator of Dragon Quest in absentia as a papal authorization of your work, and it's bewildering and offensive. A clearer example of this relationship between translation and localizing for narrative aesthetic and flow is one of my favorite French and English works, The Count of Monte Cristo. Dumas is a romanticist, and his plots are wonderful to read in the native French. There have been numerous translations in English, with various levels of accuracy, but by far the best is Robin Buss translation. It's not as accurate structurally, or I should say it is not as devoted to structural accuracy, but there is a high cognizance of narrative aesthetic and the flow of language, of making something that is pleasing to read in an artistic sense. It is truly a joy to read in English, and superior in some ways. This is the height of the art, of localization. And I say art, because all who choose to do localization work, knowingly or not, become authors in their own right.

So, knowing these immutable facts, what conclusions can we draw about team Translation Quest? Their philosophy that their work is more accurate or pure and more authoritative is sourced in completely faulty logic. They will belittle anyone who disagrees even passively, and are also not afraid to play the victims. While their narrative and writing skills are a subjective matter, it is simple to deduce that they are objectively under-skilled when it comes to working with roms, and probably have little programming experience or skill. I know this because the entirety of their projects are edits of the English roms of existing localizations. I have no doubt that they are inundated with requests to bugfix/re-localize Dragon Quest I+II SFC and Dragon quest III SFC, and that they are unable to do so because they do not possess the skill set. It's actually quite humorous to watch Chicken Knife salivate over the possibility of getting permission to use Rod Merida's Fix for his team's vanity project. The only thing we have not established is if their localizations pass any rigorous artistic criticism. We know they certainly think they do:

Look--I don't consider the English script to be an objectively bad one. I've played through a hundred translations (fan & official) that are worse. I trust that you can tell the difference between an English script that is of a decent quality level versus one that isn't. And I also trust that your knowledge of grammar is probably better than a lot of native English speakers.

But language isn't just about rules--it's about feeling. The abstract connotations of words, the subtleties of expression and phrasing, all those things add nuance and color to writing in a way that is very difficult for all but the most immersed non-native speakers to completely catch hold of. Not to boast, but I think I have a particularly strong sense for those things, and there are a lot of scripts that would be considered "decent" quality that I have a very hard time enjoying because of those subtle kind of issues.

With the work I'm involved in, I play through the games with my finished scripts about 4 or 5 times, making extremely subtle changes to improve what I perceive to be the "naturalness" of the language. I agonize over this kind of revision process, while fully aware that 98% of the people who play with them will neither notice nor care about these subtle improvements. They would have been just as happy with an earlier rendition of the script that was "good enough" to the average person. Back when the RPGOne script came out, there were so many important Japanese games that had yet to be translated to English. Teams back then--perhaps rightfully--took a "good enough" approach to their work, lest they fall into the quagmire of perfectionism that causes one to spend years working on single projects.

Anyone that can pump out self-congratulatory purple prose of this density must be a capable writer, with a strong aesthetic sensibility. Let's see the results of these efforts.
(https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/nes/images/5466screenshot4.png)

Ah, so this is the result all the intense scrutiny, dedication to authenticity, and a completely transparent disdain and hatred for the work of other localizers (be they working at SE or amateurs such as yourselves). It almost feels like your entire purpose for localizing these games again was for the chance to flex your superiority in aesthetic sensibilities. If that was the case I cannot imagine a more tragic result. It's actually quite silly to see you pontificate at length about your zealous dedication to authenticity and accuracy considering the questionable liabilities you're willing to take. Hypocritical no? I've said a lot in this post but I think I can just let this one speak for itself. Nothing else could make my point about the dissonance and hypocritical nature of wielding the authority of a "true and pure translation" than this image. There are other things I could quibble about here but these are the lion's share of my feelings reading through this topic. As one writer to another I hope you can change your attitudes going further, if not your mistaken philosophy behind localization and translation at least let it be the way you conduct yourself publicly with other writers.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on June 28, 2021, 06:35:19 pm
I could not agree more with you in everything, Ether. Whatever I add to your words is few after this.

June 28, 2021, 06:42:15 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
(https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/nes/images/5466screenshot4.png)

Ah, so this is the result all the intense scrutiny, dedication to authenticity, and a completely transparent disdain and hatred for the work of other localizers (be they working at SE or amateurs such as yourselves).
*Plas, plas, plas*!!
Such a gibberish (what in Spanish we call "un galimatías")!
And they complain about "gibberish" and "pruns" in the other translations.
I've not been able to understand even a single word there, let's not say to match each spell with its normal English or even Japanese counterparts.
This is not driving reversed!, this is doing a GTA directly!

I couldn't even clearly say what language is it supposed to be.
Sapmaju? Searami? Ampiruto? Flara? Frosto? Flyra! Mirromaju!!! (seems a creole, like in The Expanse ! "Listen to me, beltalowdas!")
Definitely not English!
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 28, 2021, 07:17:23 pm
@Ether

I'll speak for myself. But I've discussed the points with nejimakipiyo, and there is agreement between us.

In our aim to publicly defend our work, we have often demonstrated bad decorum. I was beginning to sense the hypocrisy after my last post as well. Another event that opened my eyes today was reading a public communication from Near/Byuu from the time when their DQ5 translation was released. They congratulated Dejap / Partial Translations for the release of their work, and there was a sweetness, humility and professionalism towards their fellow authors that struck my core. Knowing some of the backdrop to that affair made it all the more remarkable to read. Going back to the essence of the matter, we intend to hold a long memory of this painful lesson and demonstrate more humility. I was foolish to think that there is any benefit to be found in acting as our own champions, especially via derisive criticism of the work of other authors, and I apologize. I hope you all can believe how sincere I am, and I promise that we will strive to find more humble and diplomatic ways of explaining ourselves in the future.

That was the matter of significance to be said, but there are some smaller responses and questions.

Quote
This ideology of "delocalizing" or making a translation that is "true" or "authentic" is completely false, and totally impossible to accomplish.
I've long been aware (and publicly said) that there are small elements where liberties must be taken in the attempt at equivalency in our scripts. That means that the name Delocalized is more extreme than the reality, since we have done a bit of our own localization. I still like the name however, because of how small we try to keep those elements. In a general sense, the idea matches.

Quote
it is simple to deduce that they are objectively under-skilled when it comes to working with roms, and probably have little programming experience or skill
Nothing I haven't said many times. We have done some of this work, and I made great effort to learn enough ASM to do some things for DQ3, but we struggle with it. That doesn't mean we won't be learning more of it as time goes on. When an opportunity manifests to skip what we enjoy less and focus on what we enjoy more, yes, we jump a bit. Guilty as charged.

Quote
Anyone that can pump out self-congratulatory purple prose of this density must be a capable writer, with a strong aesthetic sensibility
Far too complimentary of you when we are supposed to be working on my humility.

Quote
I've said a lot in this post but I think I can just let this one speak for itself. Nothing else could make my point about the dissonance and hypocritical nature of wielding the authority of a "true and pure translation" than this image
While you seem to think the problems with these spell names are so obvious that they require no explanation, they are unfortunately lost on me. I'd be happy to hear what is terrible about them. The main objections I've gotten are that familiarity with the existing systems makes a new one dysfunctional, and that we have broken some kind of unwritten rule in doing this. I'm really open to hearing if the former issue is experienced by people who actually play through our translations. And I honestly don't understand the thinking behind the latter. If you are suggesting that they look idiotic, I haven't heard that before. Rod is now saying that their language is not in English. This was intended as a matter of equivalency with the Japanese names. If you haven't read the note about them in our readme files explaining the methodology, it might provide some helpful context.

Quote
As one writer to another I hope you can change your attitudes going further, if not your mistaken philosophy behind localization and translation at least let it be the way you conduct yourself publicly with other writers.
I'll accept this as sincere, and I appreciate it. You were harsh with me, but I deserved a harsh rebuke. I hope you see a difference in our future communications. I'm less sold on your issues with our translation philosophy, but if you would like to discuss it further, a PM, or responding here: http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php?topic=26951.0 (http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php?topic=26951.0) might be best, as to let this thread get back to Rod's hacking work.

@Rod

I wanted to offer a direct apology for my disrespectful behavior. I'm not saying this because I want anything from you, but because I think you deserve it. While there may have been things that upset me in the course of our interactions, I could have responded in a way that properly demonstrates the behavior I wish to see in this community.



Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: tc on June 28, 2021, 07:47:54 pm
I've been lurking this topic since it was first posted, and I've held a lot of my feelings and thoughts about the topics being discussed to myself, because these thoughts are invariably intertwined with criticisms for specific projects and project creators. I did not feel comfortable, really, in voicing these criticisms, out of a respect for the work being done, and as a fellow lover of Dragon Quest. Chicken Knife and his cohorts have dropped all pretenses of decorum and I can no longer hold my tongue. As a student of French, English, Japanese, an ardent lover and defender of Dragon Quest, a supporter of fan translations and projects since before most of the people in this topic could probably read, and as a relatively personally and professionally accomplished writer believe me when I say it is a huge sin to slag off another writer so shamelessly, as Chicken Knife and nejimakipiyo have done in this topic. The 12 pages of this disastrous topic have been a roller coaster to read, from casual bigotry to earnest and heartfelt adulation and gratitude, a lot of different view points have been expressed. The one and only common trait shared by the posters in this topic is that just about everyone wants something from Rod Merida. People want him to remove his splashes, to start on new projects, to fix bugs in other Dragon Quest games, or consent to letting them use his hard-work as a base for their vanity projects. As someone who has been playing SNES fan translations since they were first published on the internet I cannot express how deep my gratitude is to Rod Merida for his Fix to Dragon Quest I+II. It is a tremendous gift to receive as a community that has had to suffer with a translation, pleasing to read though it may be, unfortunately fraught with many bugs. For myself and everyone else that has yet to experience DQI+II SFC I thank you from the bought of my heart. Now, on to my thoughts and criticism of the philosophy and general attitudes of Chicken Knife and nejimakipiyo.

Here's a small example of the magnanimity expressed by them in this topic, as they correspond with someone who has done something truly of value and requiring skill and time, the fixing of many previously unresearched bugs, in a very popular translation.
It's hard for me to put into word the lamentation I feel reading these things, but luckily I don't have to, a fellow writer has done that for me.

Well said, moving on to my next point.

Since the concept and practice of fan translations were invented, the idea of retranslating, re-localizing, or the current in vogue misnomer: delocalizing, has existed alongside it. Usually these projects start with an editorial sensibility, aiming to fix various grammar or typographical mistakes. Not always, not invariably, but quite often these projects, well intentioned as they may be, become total failures from a narrative aesthetic sensibility, because of minor obsessions and an application of a wholly mistaken ideology. This ideology of "delocalizing" or making a translation that is "true" or "authentic" is completely false, and totally impossible to accomplish. Translation of idiosyncratic works of this level of sophistication and style requires, even if it is small, some localization. Contextual terms, idioms, words that have no translation, nonsense words, etc. all require localization, and we're just talking about the language at the most basic structural level. With languages so completely different in their roots and composition it is also invariable that you must localize less structural things as well, like sentence composition, as a narrative and aesthetic requirement. This is true for languages that are much closer to English, as well. It is impossible to unmarry the need to localize parts of your translation, and Chicken Knife and nejimakipiyo knows this for a fact, but choose to invoke the "authenticity" of their work as a shield from criticism. In fact they often weaponize this position to attack anyone leveling criticism at them. Even worse, they fallaciously invoke Horii-san to give the weight of authority to their localizations.

I love Horii-san's style of writing, but it is an impossibility to impart it's whole substance to an English translation, because that's just now how translation and localization work. There is no formation of words that you could ever make with English characters that would justify you using the creator of Dragon Quest in absentia as a papal authorization of your work, and it's bewildering and offensive. A clearer example of this relationship between translation and localizing for narrative aesthetic and flow is one of my favorite French and English works, The Count of Monte Cristo. Dumas is a romanticist, and his plots are wonderful to read in the native French. There have been numerous translations in English, with various levels of accuracy, but by far the best is Robin Buss translation. It's not as accurate structurally, or I should say it is not as devoted to structural accuracy, but there is a high cognizance of narrative aesthetic and the flow of language, of making something that is pleasing to read in an artistic sense. It is truly a joy to read in English, and superior in some ways. This is the height of the art, of localization. And I say art, because all who choose to do localization work, knowingly or not, become authors in their own right.

So, knowing these immutable facts, what conclusions can we draw about team Translation Quest? Their philosophy that their work is more accurate or pure and more authoritative is sourced in completely faulty logic. They will belittle anyone who disagrees even passively, and are also not afraid to play the victims. While their narrative and writing skills are a subjective matter, it is simple to deduce that they are objectively under-skilled when it comes to working with roms, and probably have little programming experience or skill. I know this because the entirety of their projects are edits of the English roms of existing localizations. I have no doubt that they are inundated with requests to bugfix/re-localize Dragon Quest I+II SFC and Dragon quest III SFC, and that they are unable to do so because they do not possess the skill set. It's actually quite humorous to watch Chicken Knife salivate over the possibility of getting permission to use Rod Merida's Fix for his team's vanity project. The only thing we have not established is if their localizations pass any rigorous artistic criticism. We know they certainly think they do:

Anyone that can pump out self-congratulatory purple prose of this density must be a capable writer, with a strong aesthetic sensibility. Let's see the results of these efforts.
(https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/nes/images/5466screenshot4.png)

Ah, so this is the result all the intense scrutiny, dedication to authenticity, and a completely transparent disdain and hatred for the work of other localizers (be they working at SE or amateurs such as yourselves). It almost feels like your entire purpose for localizing these games again was for the chance to flex your superiority in aesthetic sensibilities. If that was the case I cannot imagine a more tragic result. It's actually quite silly to see you pontificate at length about your zealous dedication to authenticity and accuracy considering the questionable liabilities you're willing to take. Hypocritical no? I've said a lot in this post but I think I can just let this one speak for itself. Nothing else could make my point about the dissonance and hypocritical nature of wielding the authority of a "true and pure translation" than this image. There are other things I could quibble about here but these are the lion's share of my feelings reading through this topic. As one writer to another I hope you can change your attitudes going further, if not your mistaken philosophy behind localization and translation at least let it be the way you conduct yourself publicly with other writers.

I'm going to respectfully agree to disagree. In this instance, Horii-san's work is authoritative. It is the source material in regards to the thematic and wordplay choices of DQI&II.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Bobza on July 01, 2021, 06:25:48 pm
I've noticed a slight issue with the 1.05rtm patch.  When trying to sell an important item in DQ I, the shopkeeper says:

"Hmmm... I'm sorry.
I can't take that.
It looks far to important.
You should hold onto it."

("to" should be "too")

I am enjoying this patch so far.  I'll reply if I notice anything else.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on July 03, 2021, 06:48:59 am
Quote from: Bobza
"It looks far to important."

("to" should be "too")
I'm going to fix it right now.

Quote from: Bobza
I am enjoying this patch so far.
I'm glad to hear so. It's good to know my effort wasn't in vain.

July 03, 2021, 11:52:39 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Fixed, and sent to the submitting queue.
It can be obtained from here, meanwhile: http://crackowia.gq/dqust1n2.html
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RedDogs on July 05, 2021, 08:36:42 pm
Hello, long time lurker first time poster here.

Hey RodMerida, I just finished the finished the first game, good work by your team, Lilpuddy31 and Dudejo to finally get this game the respect it's deserves. It's almost perfect except for one instance I noticed after defeating the final boss of DQ1. The dialog calls him "DragonLord", instead of "King Dragon". It seems weird for a patch that uses the Japanese naming that suddenly it would use the old crap English names. Other than that, DQ1 is perfect. Was using the latest 1051rtm patch
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: lilpuddy31 on July 05, 2021, 09:01:40 pm
Hello, long time lurker first time poster here.

Hey RodMerida, I just finished the finished the first game, good work by your team, Lilpuddy31 and Dudejo to finally get this game the respect it's deserves. It's almost perfect except for one instance I noticed after defeating the final boss of DQ1. The dialog calls him "DragonLord", instead of "King Dragon". It seems weird for a patch that uses the Japanese naming that suddenly it would use the old crap English names. Other than that, DQ1 is perfect. Was using the latest 1051rtm patch

Don't even get me started on this, he is aware
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RedDogs on July 05, 2021, 11:17:00 pm
Don't even get me started on this, he is aware

OK, I'm judging from that reaction that the group has given up already. Most unfortunate. Game deserves to be better polished
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on July 06, 2021, 07:24:03 pm
OK, I'm judging from that reaction that the group has given up already. Most unfortunate. Game deserves to be better polished

No, we have not given up anything —This evening I have sent another update—. It's just a valid synonym for King Dragon that appears in one sentence in the whole DQ1. I like it, and wanted to leave it unchanged as a matter of editorial respect to the original RPGOne's script, since it's not even a bug or glitch, or malfunctioning, and it has some philological/historical value in ROMhacking scene. It's not Gwaelyn and that stuff that has nothing to do with Laura, for example, that we did replace. It's not a typo. It's not characters' names being reversed in DQ2. It's just refering once to King Dragon as Dragonlord for adding a little of lexical variety to the game, even though it was originally due to a mistake this people made in 2002 when doing two versions of the same patch. What for you is "just a mistake", for me it's archaeology.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RedDogs on July 06, 2021, 10:45:37 pm
No, we have not given up anything —This evening I have sent another update—. It's just a valid synonym for King Dragon that appears in one sentence in the whole DQ1. I like it, and wanted to leave it unchanged as a matter of editorial respect to the original RPGOne's script, since it's not even a bug or glitch, or malfunctioning, and it has some philological/historical value in ROMhacking scene. It's not Gwaelyn and that stuff that has nothing to do with Laura, for example, that we did replace. It's not a typo. It's not characters' names being reversed in DQ2. It's just refering once to King Dragon as Dragonlord for adding a little of lexical variety to the game, even though it was originally due to a mistake this people made in 2002 when doing two versions of the same patch. What for you is "just a mistake", for me it's archaeology.

Pardon my ignorance, but wasn't the point of your patch was to 'fix' RPGone's unpolished translation, correct? So, after seeing your post, I went and downloaded both of RPGone's original patches and loaded up the DW version. And they refer to the main antagonist as "The Dragonlord" or simply as Dragonlord.  But in their DQ version, all references to him was changed to "King Dragon", except for the one time at hand. (Personally, Dragonlord does sound better as I grew up with Dragon Warrior). It only makes sense that they missed one, and it should be King Dragon. Now granted this is your 'fix' and you're gonna do whatever questionable choices to fit your own agenda. But to claim editorial respect, after your changing their "Ball of Light" lines... idk man, seems like youre making their work your own, instead of polishing their work and making this 'fix' how their's should have been. That would have shown true respect to RPGone...

Now I know why lilpuddy31 seems like he/she wants to bow out
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: lan-vuhoang on July 07, 2021, 01:01:53 am
I'll just wait until I grew up and get a Switch so that I could play the Switch version.

There's just no definitive version of DQ1 and 2. :)

And for DQ3, I like the GBC version for its extra content, and also because the GBC version's short but effective translation is better than the SNES version's long and buggy translation. :) :)
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Bosco82 on July 07, 2021, 05:28:05 am
No, we have not given up anything —This evening I have sent another update—. It's just a valid synonym for King Dragon that appears in one sentence in the whole DQ1. I like it, and wanted to leave it unchanged as a matter of editorial respect to the original RPGOne's script, since it's not even a bug or glitch, or malfunctioning, and it has some philological/historical value in ROMhacking scene. It's not Gwaelyn and that stuff that has nothing to do with Laura, for example, that we did replace. It's not a typo. It's not characters' names being reversed in DQ2. It's just refering once to King Dragon as Dragonlord for adding a little of lexical variety to the game, even though it was originally due to a mistake this people made in 2002 when doing two versions of the same patch. What for you is "just a mistake", for me it's archaeology.

And everyone else hates it, it's a mistake just like everything else you've fixed has been
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on July 07, 2021, 06:04:10 am
Hatred is a very strong word.
Why hate?

There's just no definitive version of DQ1 and 2. :)
Because of "Dragonlord" there is no definite version?

Quote from: RedDogs
Now I know why lilpuddy31 seems like he/she wants to bow out.
Lilpuddy31 has not bown out anything.
For this little thing she or he has suggested me and I've not agreed I have fixed like 30 other bugs or typos reported by her or him, just in Dragon Quest 1. Including one that doesn't let you save the game after reaching maximum level (level 30), that I think is much more important than that nonsense of using just one only synonymic instance for King Dragon in the whole game, due to the interference of an alternate version of RPGOne's patch with DW localization.

So, then, according to you this patch is an arbitrary crap because I just fix malfunctioning glitches, garbage letters, Rolando being cloned and erasing the princess from your party (and from the game), wrong text pointers, game breaking mistakes while copying/translating a dialog control codes, wrong variable codes for names and even for the price of an Inn that showed experience instead, no random name generating system, an untranslated ending in Japanese, Gwaelyn instead Laura, an item being mentioned in your inventory like a completely different thing, the vault erasing your stored money if it exceeds 65536 and all that.
And just because in one instance I decided to respect one damn synonym that adds literary quality to the script, even if originally was due to a typo, this patch deserves to be thrown to garbage.
I like the logic you're handling here.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Special on July 07, 2021, 06:23:45 am
Stand strong Rod!  :woot!:
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Darth Link X on July 07, 2021, 06:42:28 am
Keep up the good work Rod and please don't let the naysayers get to you, they are a bunch of sad people with too much free time on their hands.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Bosco82 on July 07, 2021, 03:27:37 pm
delete
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Felipefpl on July 07, 2021, 06:42:04 pm
Stand strong Rod!  :woot!:

I say the same, your work is nice and i'm waiting for more from you.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on July 07, 2021, 08:10:47 pm
Thank you.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: lan-vuhoang on July 07, 2021, 08:17:22 pm
The pros and cons of this translation in my opinion:

Pros:
1. Bug-free.
2. Has the excellent graphics of the SNES version.

Cons:
1. The RPGONE script can be a bit inaccurate at times.
2. Japanese names only. So if you want English names, the buggy RPGONE version is the only way to go.
3. Of course, we can't say anything with this translation without mentioning the obnoxious, seizure-inducing cracktro.

July 07, 2021, 10:13:05 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Quote
Because of "Dragonlord" there is no definite version?
No, because each version just has its own pros and cons. :) :) :)

NES version:

Pros:
1. Still has a memorable script.
2. Is innovative for the time.
3. No unnecessary button presses to start the game.
Cons:
1. Is the hardest version of the game.
2. The graphics are absolutely lacking compared to even the GBC version.

GBC version:
Pros:
1. Is easier than the NES version.
2. Still had a good translation despite of the shortening.
Cons:
1. Graphics and sound are worse than the SNES version. Not a big deal, though.
2. No modern terminology.

Switch version:
Pros:
1. Good translation that's unaffected by memory limitations.
2. Great battle graphics due to being closer to the original art.
3. Still retain the charms of the originals.
Cons:
1. Overworld graphics are the same as the SNES version and not upscaled like the battle graphics. Again, not a big deal.
2. Can't think of any more.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on July 08, 2021, 03:33:42 am
the "obnoxious, seizure-inducing cracktro" is not there anymore (unless you deliberately press SELECT), and is not "seizure-inducing" anymore anyway, It has changed. Have you updated the patch?

And I'm not closed to the idea of porting this patch to the RPGOne patch with Dragon Warrior localizations. But that requires work.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: saldite on July 08, 2021, 08:54:04 am
Switch version:
Pros:
1. Good translation that's unaffected by memory limitations.
2. Great battle graphics due to being closer to the original art.
3. Still retain the charms of the originals.
Cons:
1. Overworld graphics are the same as the SNES version and not upscaled like the battle graphics. Again, not a big deal.
2. Can't think of any more.
The mismatched graphics and sprites are honestly probably my biggest complaints for the Switch version along with the localization, and are the main reasons I just can't play it. The graphics in particular are a weird mishmash of sprites at different pixel scales, character sprites looking Godzilla sized, high res UI fonts, and what looks like the DQ3 SNES battle backgrounds run through a smoothing filter and a couple of touchups with JPG enemy sprites just put on top. The Switch ports are genuinely really ugly looking, IMO.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Maidentree on July 08, 2021, 10:10:58 am
The pros and cons of this translation in my opinion:

Cons:
3. Of course, we can't say anything with this translation without mentioning the obnoxious, seizure-inducing cracktro.

the "obnoxious, seizure-inducing cracktro" is not there anymore, and is not "seizure-inducing" anymore. Have you updated the patch?

And I'm not closed to the idea of porting this patch to the RPGOne patch with English localizations.

Granted, if the static intro screen was there from the very beginning; we probably wouldn't have this long-winded thread on how to remove the static intro screen.
GBC version:
Cons:
1. Graphics and sound are worse than the SNES version. Not a big deal, though.

I don't know about you but I really didn't mind the graphics of the GBC versions. I mean, when you have a smaller screen, and smaller color range, you gotta make do with what ya got and adapt to the smaller screen.

Glad to see that it's not a big deal, though.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: lan-vuhoang on July 08, 2021, 09:13:10 pm
Just need to hope that the newly announced remake of DQ3 has the Sky World and Ice Cave.

Even if they're DLC, I'll still accept it. :) :) :) ;)
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Piotyr on July 09, 2021, 12:14:23 am
Just need to hope that the newly announced remake of DQ3 has the Sky World and Ice Cave.

Even if they're DLC, I'll still accept it. :) :) :) ;)
If it comes to pc someone please remove any accents and extra puns kthxbye
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Bobza on July 09, 2021, 11:51:31 pm
A few more things I've noticed in DQ 1 on patch 1.052rtm:

After entering the hidden stairway on the first floor of the final castle, the bottom left door graphic is missing.  (I'm using Canoe.)

When using the Token of Roto, the phrase "A surge of courage rushed through ****s body!"  (Missing an apostrophe after the character's name.)

In the town of Radatome, the guard who stays by the tree who asks if you have proof... if you choose Yes and you don't actually, he says:
"Huh?!
You don't  have the symbol."  (Appears to have 2 spaces between don't and have.)

I'll continue to keep my eyes open for anything else.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: lan-vuhoang on July 10, 2021, 09:06:47 pm
the "obnoxious, seizure-inducing cracktro" is not there anymore (unless you deliberately press SELECT), and is not "seizure-inducing" anymore anyway, It has changed. Have you updated the patch?

And I'm not closed to the idea of porting this patch to the RPGOne patch with Dragon Warrior localizations. But that requires work.
Yeah, and now it returns when I press Start. Given that some people mash Start to skip the intros, this could still be a problem nonetheless.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on July 11, 2021, 06:50:41 pm
"A surge of courage rushed through ****s body!"  (Missing an apostrophe after the character's name.)
It seems German, or old Anglosaxon. ​Lol

Yeah, and now it returns when I press Start. Given that some people mash Start to skip the intros, this could still be a problem nonetheless.
If you press START during the static splash (or B or Y-Button, or Directional Pad) you stop it, to be able to appreciate it with no time rush (the Toriyama's art really worths it).
A, X, L or R at any moment skips it.

SELECT will let you see the spinning cracktro with a summary of what the patch fixes, that stops spinning automatically when it's straight (then press Cursor Pad to make it go on spinning, or push B, Y or START to skip it and start the game; it will again stop by itself after 3 turns).
Pressing SELECT at any moment during the cracktro will let you see the RPGOne splash screen, that can only be skipped by pressing START (or waiting some seconds).

You may manually freeze the spinning cracktro at any moment by pressing A (to play a little with it, to experiment with its effect, get a snapshot or just read it).
You may skip the cracktro while it's spinning or has been manually stopped, by pressing just B.

Doing all these control options that I'm explaining you has required much machine code programming, by the way. Such code is not very long in extension, because they're just some lines of hexadecimal codes (learnt by heart) manually written inside the ROM with many branches (equivalent to IF's, where you need to manually specify every time to what exact ROM position you're jumping if the result of a substraction either is or is not zero; if after that you insert new instructions that exact position will probably change and will need to be updated, or you will crash it), but it requires a while doing so so it works. I could change the function of START button so it made something else, increasing the amount of cycles spent per second for checking such single button state, loaded from a certain RAM position, and thus delaying the inputting process, making it not detect some random keystrokes from the player and to require him to hold, or to press the same button twice so it makes the expected effect, but, is it really necessary?

I mean, START and A-Button belong to different RAM positions. Do I really have to add an extra reading operation+branch with jump to a different relative ROM position (that requires repeating a bunch of extra instructions) just because people can't experiment and try pressing other buttons?
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: lan-vuhoang on July 12, 2021, 12:10:18 am
The mismatched graphics and sprites are honestly probably my biggest complaints for the Switch version along with the localization, and are the main reasons I just can't play it. The graphics in particular are a weird mishmash of sprites at different pixel scales, character sprites looking Godzilla sized, high res UI fonts, and what looks like the DQ3 SNES battle backgrounds run through a smoothing filter and a couple of touchups with JPG enemy sprites just put on top. The Switch ports are genuinely really ugly looking, IMO.
It might not be for you, but it might be for other people. Peoples' opinions differs, you know.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: saldite on July 12, 2021, 09:03:01 am
It might not be for you, but it might be for other people. Peoples' opinions differs, you know.
Yep, I know. Just adding to the discussion. :beer: If it helps, on the plus side, the gameplay and balance improvements especially for DQ2 probably make it the best version of the game, gameplay-wise. Likewise, 3, I've been told, has auto-battle and AIs implemented, which could help with a lot of the random encounters as you're going from point A to point B.

They're definitely not the versions for me and I do think the cons presentation-wise outweigh the benefits, but I mean, it's still all Dragon Quest at the end of the day.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: lan-vuhoang on July 12, 2021, 08:11:43 pm
Yep, I know. Just adding to the discussion. :beer: If it helps, on the plus side, the gameplay and balance improvements especially for DQ2 probably make it the best version of the game, gameplay-wise. Likewise, 3, I've been told, has auto-battle and AIs implemented, which could help with a lot of the random encounters as you're going from point A to point B.

They're definitely not the versions for me and I do think the cons presentation-wise outweigh the benefits, but I mean, it's still all Dragon Quest at the end of the day.
The most important thing: did the Switch version of DQ3 has the Sky World and Ice Cave?
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Bobza on July 13, 2021, 07:30:51 pm
Another few slight issues in DQ 1 on patch 1.052rtm:

When choosing to remove items from the vault, the keeper says:
"What item will you retreive?"  (Should be spelled "retrieve")

Another apostrophe missing - when using the Cursed Belt as an item, it says:
"The Cursed Belt clamped itself onto ****s body!"  (Should be "... onto ****'s body!")

In the town of Rimuldar, the guard at the south of town between the buildings who asks about the ring - if you are wearing one, he says:
"Oh, you're wearing a ring.
Aren't  you embarassed?"  (Appears to be two spaces between Aren't and you, also spelling should be "embarrassed")

In the town of Garai, after you have defeated King Dragon, two issues:

The bard says:
"... For sure you must think It's a much more wonderful ..."  ("it's" shouldn't be capitalized here)

The old man in the house in the southwest of town says:
"... My eyes never decieve me."  (Should be spelled "deceive")

Just before the end of the game, when Laura asks to go with you - If you choose No, she says:
"Don't  treat me this way."  (Appears to be two spaces between Don't and treat)

Update from my previous post - As I went back into that secret room in the final castle for a second time, the door (all 4 graphics) was complete.  Must have been an emulator issue, or maybe just from the first time loading the area.. ?

If you are happy with your patch as it is, let me know and I won't continue posting these mundane updates haha.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on July 14, 2021, 03:55:53 am
I'm happy with the patch as it is, man. Those issues are very tiny and if I fix them I'd also have to fix many missing commas after the hero's name, many capitalizations after comma, when that comma is followed by Enter, and all that.
I have decided very much time ago to leave those things as characteristics of the original patch, like a typographic decision (that I don't agree but is part of the nature of the patch), and I leave them for a matter of editorial respect.

Two spaces in an isolated sentence, one saxon genitive without apostrophe (like in archaic orthograph), one retreive instead retrieve, they're the typical minor typos that even official translations could sometimes contain, like the one of Terranigma or Lufia in Spanish. "It was released like that" (or as we say in Spanish: "¡Salió así!").

Anyway thanks for putting me these, because it's interesting.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RedDogs on July 14, 2021, 05:10:35 am
I'm happy with the patch as it is, man. Those issues are very tiny and if I fix them I'd also have to fix many missing commas after the hero's name, many capitalizations after comma, when that comma is followed by Enter, and all that.
I have decided very much time ago to leave those things as characteristics of the original patch, like a typographic decision (that I don't agree but is part of the nature of the patch), and I leave them for a matter of editorial respect.

Two spaces in an isolated sentence, one saxon genitive without apostrophe (like in archaic orthograph), one retreive instead retrieve, they're the typical minor typos that even official translations could sometimes contain, like the one of Terranigma or Lufia in Spanish. "It was released like that" (or as we say in Spanish: "¡Salió así!").

Anyway thanks for putting me these, because it's interesting.

Ugh, Translation Quest's patch can't get here soon enough
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Special on July 14, 2021, 07:05:57 am
I'm happy with the patch as it is...

Thank God, those constant updates were getting annoying! And you probably need a rest anyways.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on July 14, 2021, 08:12:47 am
Thank God, those constant updates were getting annoying! And you probably need a rest anyways.

Yes. Basically. That's the other main reason.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: lan-vuhoang on July 20, 2021, 03:41:50 am
Here's my checklist for a RodMerida English patch for DQ3:
1. Bug-fixed. (obviously)
2. Based on the DQ Translations patch, not the RPGONE patch, because the DQ Translations patch is more complete.
3. No cracktro altogether, so that people who mashes buttons when starting games don't have to unnecessarily deal with it. Just add an additional copyright line to the title screen and credits.
4. Modern terminology. (preferably optional for the user)
5. English names. (also preferably optional for the user)
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on July 23, 2021, 04:11:16 am
It seems the letter to the 3 Wise Men (los Reyes Magos) so they bring you many gifts. Lol.

Still I don't even have an idea of where those bugs may be in the ROM. It seems like finding a pin in a desert.

But miracles exist. I had many miracles with DQ1+2 (still I don't believe them), and many days of research, too.


"4. Modern terminology."
-> I will leave the ROM as it is in English. Not my business to change the translation. Also I will respect the original terminology from those times as it comes (however they may have translated it), since it's historical info that talks to us about the evolution of terminology in DQ games. The fan English terminology is even mentioned in Fandom Wiki. And is good. It's interesting I think.

"Just add an additional copyright line to the title screen and credits."
-> very easy to say. Yes, go ahead. Teach me how to do it. I'm listening.
"3. No cracktro"
-> No cracktro, but splash screen. There was already a splash screen in DQTranslations work and nobody has complained about it. I will just update it.

"2. Based on the DQ Translations patch, not the RPGONE patch"
-> Is there even an RPGOne patch of DQ3?? Really?? Didn't know. And is it finished?
I'm just translating DQTranslations work to Spanish, so I will work over it.

"1. Bug-fixed. (obviously)"
-> That will be my only addition (in English at least; in Spanish I'm doing the translation, too).

"5. English names."
-> Whatever it comes in the DQTranslations work.
Does it come "Loto"? Then Loto.
Does it come "Ludatorm" and not "Radatome"? Then Ludatorm.
Or it won't match with walkthroughs on Internet (there are many, and all of them say Ludatorm, so that's what there is).
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: lan-vuhoang on July 24, 2021, 10:50:41 am
It seems the letter to the 3 Wise Men (los Reyes Magos) so they bring you many gifts. Lol.

Still I don't even have an idea of where those bugs may be in the ROM. It seems like finding a pin in a desert.

But miracles exist. I had many miracles with DQ1+2 (still I don't believe them), and many days of research, too.


"4. Modern terminology."
-> I will leave the ROM as it is in English. Not my business to change the translation. Also I will respect the original terminology from those times as it comes (however they may have translated it), since it's historical info that talks to us about the evolution of terminology in DQ games. The fan English terminology is even mentioned in Fandom Wiki. And is good. It's interesting I think.

"Just add an additional copyright line to the title screen and credits."
-> very easy to say. Yes, go ahead. Teach me how to do it. I'm listening.
"3. No cracktro"
-> No cracktro, but splash screen. There was already a splash screen in DQTranslations work and nobody has complained about it. I will just update it.

"2. Based on the DQ Translations patch, not the RPGONE patch"
-> Is there even an RPGOne patch of DQ3?? Really?? Didn't know. And is it finished?
I'm just translating DQTranslations work to Spanish, so I will work over it.

"1. Bug-fixed. (obviously)"
-> That will be my only addition (in English at least; in Spanish I'm doing the translation, too).

"5. English names."
-> Whatever it comes in the DQTranslations work.
Does it come "Loto"? Then Loto.
Does it come "Ludatorm" and not "Radatome"? Then Ludatorm.
Or it won't match with walkthroughs on Internet (there are many, and all of them say Ludatorm, so that's what there is).
2. There's a RPGONE translation of the game. Here it is: https://www.romhacking.net/translations/339/ (https://www.romhacking.net/translations/339/)
3. Okay then. Just make sute to remove the cracktro from the DQ1+2 translation too.
4+5. In my opinion, the best way to handle them is just to make them optional options. If you don't want it, just don't use it.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on July 25, 2021, 06:43:50 am
2. There's a RPGONE translation of the game. Here it is: https://www.romhacking.net/translations/339/ (https://www.romhacking.net/translations/339/)
Ah, yes! I had seen it.

Oh, my...! But this is completely unfinished!! And how uggly menu fonts! They've just romanized the kanjis! Lol, how funny. And how orthopaedic.

Not even crazy I work over this one.
But it may be very useful for finding out the bugs (or try so).
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: niuus on July 25, 2021, 10:20:26 am
Ah, yes! I had seen it.

Oh, my...! But this is completely unfinished!! And how uggly menu fonts! They've just romanized the kanjis! Lol, how funny. And how orthopaedic.

Not even crazy I work over this one.
But it may be very useful for finding out the bugs (or try so).
Are you continuing your work with DQ III? That would be great, since your patch is the reason i started playing the series again, with the intent to finish them all.  :beer:
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on July 25, 2021, 10:34:47 am
Yes, Niuus.
I'm glad to hear so.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: lan-vuhoang on August 16, 2021, 12:16:03 am
Also, since the Start and Select button are pretty close together in a SNES controller, you also have to make sure that player don't accidentally press Select and trigger the cracktro, instead of the Start button whick skip the splash screen. :) :)
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: VicVergil on August 18, 2021, 02:24:57 pm
Pardon my cultural ignorance, but isn't that because Japanese writing in general tends to have qualities off-putting to English audiences unfamiliar with it? Their particular systems of honorifics and politeness have no smooth analogue in the English language.

That's not the reason why Dragon Quest translations are "spiced up". It's the marketing suits telling Enix they should "fix it" to sell better outside of Japan, whatever "selling better" means.

Ever since Dragon Quest 1 bombed on the NES, Enix was convinced the series as it is originally just doesn't work for non-Japanese versions, because it's too kiddy, too generic, too cartoony, too Japanese, too primitive, whatever.
However, that's just how the series is. Anyone who considers these "issues to fix" doesn't like the series to begin with, and is better off with a different JRPG franchise (which is what Square Enix basically did by promoting Final Fantasy as their JRPG tailored for Western audiences, and then later Kingdom Hearts).

Enix even toyed with the idea of redesigning the entirety of Akira Toriyama's artwork for DQ2's Western release, but then his editor threatened to end his involvement in the franchise as a whole. DQ3 had extra cinematics for the Western version... Then starting from DQ8, their "selling point" was the accents. That worked in moderation with that first attempt since it was voice acted and the cuts and changes were minor, but then things like "generic story", "puff puff", "spell names and characters that are named after sound effects or fruits that don't make sense" (that are normal for anyone familiar with Dragon Ball) were seen as "issues to fix". Then after Sony bankrolled a PS4 entry and that became the new baseline for the franchise, Square Enix is attempting the same ARPG westernization they did for Final Fantasy for DQ12, with a low budget DQ3 remake in the style of Octopath Travelers (or what Bravely Default was to Final Fantasy) as a consolation prize for disgruntled Japanese fanbases.

The Game Boy Color and NES versions, as well as the various fan translations, are the least compromised versions of Dragon Quest translations. Modern localizations can't even get battle move translations consistent or making sense in any way, and somehow are more puritanical than the Enix of 1988 (which also pulled with gusto the regal, old English accents, far better than the Plus Alfa hacks could ever hope to achieve. It's readable, fit for purpose, full of personality, concise, and enjoyable.)

Here's my checklist for a RodMerida English patch for DQ3:
1. Bug-fixed. (obviously)
2. Based on the DQ Translations patch, not the RPGONE patch, because the DQ Translations patch is more complete.
3. No cracktro altogether, so that people who mashes buttons when starting games don't have to unnecessarily deal with it. Just add an additional copyright line to the title screen and credits.
4. Modern terminology. (preferably optional for the user)
5. English names. (also preferably optional for the user)

Is RodMerida even working on DQ3 after all of this nonsense about the cracktro? That would be wonderful.

4 and 5 are horrible suggestions. The fact that DQ Translations translated the game properly isn't a "flaw" to be corrected by an "addendum fix".

Please leave that to a completely separate project, in the best interests of both those interested in the English names (it would require a complete rework of the battle text to pull prerendered strings, no way those english names are going to fit when some are made excessively long and obnoxious on purpose) and those who chose to play the SNES version rather than the readily available Switch/Android version with the Plus Alfa script and those English names.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on August 19, 2021, 08:25:34 am
Is RodMerida even working on DQ3 after all of this nonsense about the cracktro? That would be wonderful.

I have just released DQ3 for SNES in Spanish four days ago (and in ROMhacking.net this morning), and it's bugfixed. It doesn't corrupt saved games anymore, and items descriptions are not messed now, when read by a female Dealer. Also two paragraphs in the ending narration have been restored.

But honestly, seeing all these attitudes with my previous English port of my bugfixes, for DQ1+2, it's really problematic for me to just port right now these simple bugfixes to English. What will I get that way? Seeing endless attempts to crack my own patch since the next day for the sake of discrediting my work and my mates' contributions, a bunch of harassing and criticisements, people calling me jerk in an anonymous forum, and bugging me here? Or silly attempts to rewrite the English text (that is well- translated), or even the Spanish one, with nonsense, now that is bugfixed? NO, THANKS!

Until I don't see a serious self-criticisement and meditation exercise from those that demonstrated an awful "obnoxious" "spinning-vomit" attitude to my work I won't do anything.

Now suffer!
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Felipefpl on August 19, 2021, 05:29:57 pm
Quote
I have just released DQ3 for SNES in Spanish four days ago (and in ROMhacking.net this morning), and it's bugfixed. It doesn't corrupt saved games anymore, and items descriptions are not messed now, when read by a female Dealer. Also two paragraphs in the ending narration have been restored.

Congratulations on another good job, hopefully if you change your mind in the future and port this to english it'll be enjoyed by even more ppl than before, perhaps even by those who dissed you.

PS: you need a new thread at "Personal Projects Forum" to discuss this.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: RodMerida on August 19, 2021, 05:36:05 pm
It will take a while to bugfix that hellish mess with Dealer's mixed descriptions in English too, though. I really suffered with that in Spanish. It's not so quick. But more or less I have a much clearer idea of the steps to do, now.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: Felipefpl on August 19, 2021, 07:39:14 pm
Quote
It will take a while to bugfix that hellish mess with Dealer's mixed descriptions in English too, though.

I dont know about this, never played the game. :P

Quote
But more or less I have a much clearer idea of the steps to do, now.

Good to know, good luck with that.
Title: Re: Dragon Quest I+II Addendum Fix by Rod Merida
Post by: MathOnNapkins on August 20, 2021, 02:04:45 pm
I'm closing this thread for two reasons.

@RodMerida: If you wish to reopen this thread, please discuss it with me via PM.