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General Category => News Submissions => Topic started by: RHDNBot on May 10, 2021, 08:23:36 am

Title: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: RHDNBot on May 10, 2021, 08:23:36 am
(https://www.romhacking.net/newsimages/newsimage2537a.png) (https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/5881/) (https://www.romhacking.net/newsimages/newsimage2537b.png) (https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/5881/)

Update By: CoolCatBomberMan

Ted Woolsey. For people who grew up playing SNES JRPGs, the name is synonymous with timeless narratives and rose-tinted nostalgia. However, for a certain otaku known here as "CoolCatBomberMan," the name instead brings to mind egregious translation errors, censorship and unnecessary creative liberties in regards to a game's plot. Super Mario RPG, having been translated by Woolsey, was not exempt from this mindset. The most notable difference between the game's English and Japanese scripts was the secret boss Culex, and his motivations for fighting Mario's party. Upon discovering an all-encompassing editor called Lazy Shell, CoolCatBomberMan sought to create a private hack that rewrote as many mistranslations as possible. However, the number of edits to the script such a project entailed soon warranted a public release.

The largest aspect of this hack can be found in the monsters fought throughout the game. Several enemies are actually lifted from various Mario games, such as Beezo, Cheep Cheep and Lava Bubbles (a.k.a. Podoboos), but it seems as if Woolsey was not given a master list of how these enemy names were meant to be localized, and did whatever he deemed fit best, such as naming Beezos "Shy Aways," due to their resemblance to Shy Guys. All such localizations have been reverted to their proper modern equivalents. Pop culture references in the Japanese script which were understandably mistranslated have been replaced with American pop culture references. One notable example is Belome's Psychopath quotes. Originally, he spoke in a style similar to Yamashita Kiyoshi from the Japanese drama TV series "Hadaka no Taisho Horoki." This hack instead has Belome quote the "Austin Powers" character Fat Bastard, due to his tendency to devour party members. INCOSISTENT capitalization AND ocasionall typpos have been fixed. Final Fantasy references lost in translation have been restored, and a few extra were added for flavor. Character inconsistencies have also been repaired. Before, Yaridovich claimed he could mimic a normal person's voice, but his speech patterns showed no difference upon collecting Johnny Jones' Star Piece. Now, when he ditches the act, he shifts to a Russian accent, to coincide with his Russian-inspired name.

The new v1.1 update includes further corrections in the script, an uncensored death scene, translation fixes for item names (i.e. NokNok Shell is now Koopa Shell), and a certain location's name has been changed to its proper localization as seen in other games. The hack, in its current state, is "complete;" unless a full translation of the Japanese script surfaces online, there is nothing more (to CoolCatBomberMan's knowledge) that needs to be fixed. If you have been holding out on Super Mario RPG, waiting for a Translation patch, or if you wish to revisit the game in a new light, then this patch is most definitely for you.

Enjoy!

RHDN Project Page (https://www.romhacking.net/hacks/5881/)

Relevant Link (https://www.romhacking.net/?page=news&category=)
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: Chicken Knife on May 10, 2021, 09:28:19 am
Hello! Thanks for working on this and releasing it. The majority of the changes strike me as a positive. I have a few questions:

1. In the original release, there were some item names with a discrepancy between the text for receiving it and the name in the menus. Those instances have been corrected, right?

2. Would you mind sharing how you determined which lines needed to be retranslated? I'm curious how those revisions came about.

3. Personally, the adding of additional final fantasy references that weren't present in the Japanese makes me uncomfortable. Were those references done as a replacement for other Japanese references that wouldn't have come across in translation? Or were they simply added liberties? There are lots of different philosophies out there when it comes to translation, but if the latter is the case, my vote would be for a stricter approach.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: Rudy on May 10, 2021, 09:48:53 am
Might be time for a new Mario RPG playthrough. I only finished it twice, once when I had the cart when I was a kid, and probably ten years later through emulation.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: julayla on May 10, 2021, 02:52:11 pm
It's been years since I played the original I might give this re-translation a go when I have the time. I hope to see how it improves (especially on the Magikoopa who was hypnotized at Bowser's Keep and if he's Kamek or a random Magikoopa in this translation).
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: CoolCatBomberMan on May 10, 2021, 02:57:39 pm
Hello! Thanks for working on this and releasing it. The majority of the changes strike me as a positive. I have a few questions:

1. In the original release, there were some item names with a discrepancy between the text for receiving it and the name in the menus. Those instances have been corrected, right?

2. Would you mind sharing how you determined which lines needed to be retranslated? I'm curious how the those revisions came about.

3. Personally, the adding of additional final fantasy references that weren't present in the Japanese makes me uncomfortable. Were those references done as a replacement for other Japanese references that wouldn't have come across in translation? Or were they simply added liberties? There are lots of different philosophies out there when it comes to translation, but if the latter is the case, my vote would be for a stricter approach.

1. Yes, the discrepancy has been fixed.

2. I based my various retranslations primarily off Clyde Mandelin's articles, since he goes into detail regarding Culex's dialogue and various pop culture references in the JP script. Pre-existing American pop culture references in the English script that were already replacing JP references (i.e. Rat Funk) were left as-is.

3. Added FF references serve to replace ill-fitting puns/pop culture references, such as Bruce Lee. From a purist standpoint, this alone invalidates my hack, but in my defense, I don't speak Japanese, so I have no way of knowing what exactly is being said in Japanese, outside of machine translations, which I thought are against site rules?
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: Chicken Knife on May 10, 2021, 04:25:40 pm
Quote
Added FF references serve to replace ill-fitting puns/pop culture references, such as Bruce Lee. From a purist standpoint, this alone invalidates my hack, but in my defense, I don't speak Japanese, so I have no way of knowing what exactly is being said in Japanese, outside of machine translations, which I thought are against site rules?
Going with a recognizable pop culture reference instead of one that isn't generally recognizable to an English speaking audience definitely does not invalidate your hack imo. I say that in spite of the fact that my team took the alternate path of of preserving original references in our DQ translations. Nevertheless, I think your choice can be a valid one.

If you happen to want any specific lines of Japanese translated, I checked with my project partner, nejimakipiyo, and we would be happy provide you with English translations of lines in question.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: Tabris666 on May 10, 2021, 04:37:14 pm
While some liberties can be tolerated that doesn't mean should be accepted.
For example changing psycopath messages for the originals would be better (can be done i already did that) or for something from 1996,for example a liberty a took on my take on retranslation was using the original names of items and monsters in most cases.
The only part i was clear was in Peach XXX and put what it was other changes i made in my hack was usign the original joypad scheme and colors and bowser pose to make it more like a proper translation.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: jmd6488 on May 11, 2021, 12:49:31 am
Hi. I'm Jeff. I read the the description and I had to share this nugget of history. Back in the ancient times of the BBS, we had an AMA with Ted Woolsey regarding localizations via forum format. He was pleasant enough and answered everyone's questions, until I stepped in crap. I asked him, to paraphrase, "how much is accurately translated and how much is just made up or substituted?" I was talking with him about Final Fantasy III (before it became FF6).

His response was to blow up at me about how much work was involved in the translation process, and how stupid/ignorant I was (at age 17, btw). So yeah. That was Ted Woolsey. The man. The myth. I'm sure he was a chain smoker.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: SunGodPortal on May 11, 2021, 07:42:52 am
3. Added FF references serve to replace ill-fitting puns/pop culture references, such as Bruce Lee. From a purist standpoint, this alone invalidates my hack, but in my defense, I don't speak Japanese, so I have no way of knowing what exactly is being said in Japanese, outside of machine translations, which I thought are against site rules?

 :beer:
Cheers to you for this decision. FF has at least some relation to this game via Square's involvement and the game genre, Bruce Lee does not. I always hated these sort of references myself as much of the time (depending on the game) they just shatter immersion and (usually) date things unnecessarily. We don't need references to Steve Urkel or Billie Eilish when fighting zombies or taking on an evil empire in a fictionalized universe.

Having said that, it sounds like it's time for me to play this again.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: nejimakipiyo on May 11, 2021, 09:28:45 am
I have no doubt that some of the references were put in by Woolsey, at least based on my marginal knowledge of the original. The Bruce Lee reference didn't exist in Japanese. I watched a video of that scene in Japanese and there's no reference at all. On that note, I do think it's more reasonable to swap it out for a FF6 reference - especially if you aren't working from the original Japanese text - since they are at least somewhat related material.

Woolsey's naming scheme was an entire hot mess. I can see what he was thinking with Guerilla, but Goby... really? And Noknok shell! I was so mad about that I almost ragequit, but this hack saved my playthrough. Another issue I have with the Woolsey translation is the "Fungah!" said by Bowser near the beginning. I was having trouble finding a video to confirm my suspicions, but "Fungah!" doesn't make any sense. I believe this to be a transliteration of a sound that's more like a roar.

I'm sure if I had the Japanese and English text side by side I'd be able to come up with numerous examples of odd localization choices, but they slip my mind now.

For someone who doesn't speak Japanese I think you did a fantastic job cleaning up a lot of Woolsey's crap.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: butane bob on May 11, 2021, 11:53:50 pm
I don't speak Japanese, so I have no way of knowing what exactly is being said in Japanese
Oh Jesus lol here we go again. I knew something was wrong from reading the text in those screenshots.
What's with this modern trend in "relocalizing" old games, but just making it up as you go coz you don't know any Japanese, and thinking it sounds better? You end up with a script that's ten times worse than Woolsey/Ireland etc ever did. You're just substituing their cringeworthy jokes and translation errors for your own.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: VicVergil on May 12, 2021, 01:50:00 am
Would you be considering at the very least producing a complete Japanese dump of the game then passing it through DeepL for a complete machine-translated English script, to at least evaluate which lines from the original localization are fine to keep, and which lines are so different they warrant manual retranslation, then hopefully take Chicken Knife's offer?

Would it be too much to ask you, in the event you're taking liberties to remove, cut, or change content depending how you feel it's cool to modern American audiences unfamiliar with foreign pop culture (already smelling a disaster in the making here with the Psychopath lines), to at least maintain detailed translator notes of your initial "direct translation" draft (no matter how "uncool" or "bland" or "dry" you might think it is) followed by your own take?

Thank you very much for this romhack, and I hope it will be even more polished in future releases. I was always curious what the boss death speech in Bowser's Castle revisit was like. A lot definitively changed (Wine River, etc)
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: CoolCatBomberMan on May 12, 2021, 03:28:30 am
Would you be considering at the very least producing a complete Japanese dump of the game then passing it through DeepL for a complete machine-translated English script, to at least evaluate which lines from the original localization are fine to keep, and which lines are so different they warrant manual retranslation, then hopefully take Chicken Knife's offer?

How would I even produce a Japanese dump? Just play the JP version normally, and copy all the text by hand? That would be extremely tedious, and far too easy for me to make typos big enough to completely change the meaning of whatever sentence is involved.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: knight0fdragon on May 12, 2021, 09:12:25 am
Oh Jesus lol here we go again. I knew something was wrong from reading the text in those screenshots.
What's with this modern trend in "relocalizing" old games, but just making it up as you go coz you don't know any Japanese, and thinking it sounds better? You end up with a script that's ten times worse than Woolsey/Ireland etc ever did. You're just substituing their cringeworthy jokes and translation errors for your own.

Oh Jesus lol here we go again.  I knew something was wrong from reading the comment starting with Oh Jesus.
What's with this modern trend of "bitching" about relocalizing, but having no actual intent of giving it a try.  You end up looking like an @$$hole that is ten times worse that Woosley/Irelend etc.  You are just crying about something that you are not being forced to use.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: aqualung on May 12, 2021, 10:51:44 am
Oh Jesus lol here we go again. I knew something was wrong from reading the text in those screenshots.
What's with this modern trend in "relocalizing" old games, but just making it up as you go coz you don't know any Japanese, and thinking it sounds better? You end up with a script that's ten times worse than Woolsey/Ireland etc ever did. You're just substituing their cringeworthy jokes and translation errors for your own.

Well, get used to it, man. As more and more people keep abandoning the translation scene, burned out of the usual negativity, drama and such, we'll have to rely more and more on automatic translations (I'm playing Madara 2 right now by using a real-time text extractor that I've coded myself and pasting the dialogs on DeepL and, frankly, the translations returned are coherent 90% of the time, making the game completely playable and following the plot really well. I wish I had done this much earlier).
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: Firionel on May 12, 2021, 09:04:11 pm
Clyde Mandelin (a professional Japanese to English translator well known for spearheading the Mother 3 fantranslation) has translated every single Psychopath quote for an article. I'm surprised no one has brought it up so far: https://legendsoflocalization.com/the-pop-culture-obsessed-monsters-in-japanese-super-mario-rpg/

Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: VicVergil on May 12, 2021, 09:48:50 pm
How would I even produce a Japanese dump? Just play the JP version normally, and copy all the text by hand? That would be extremely tedious, and far too easy for me to make typos big enough to completely change the meaning of whatever sentence is involved.

...

While transcribing it is definitively an option, what you're supposed to do is to extract the Japanese graphics for the whole font, interpret that as kana and kanji, produce a text table, and extract the entire Japanese text.
I don't know whether LazyShell supports JP version roms, but it's probably not the case if you're even asking the question.

There were others who previously toyed with a complete text dump for the JP SMRPG.
A Wonderbar plugin (http://tomato.fobby.net/wanderbar/) (intercepting the text data as it's processed by the emulation) by tomato supports it, for example.
tashi attempted a script dump (from the text data) for the JP version at LLTVG (http://www.lltvg.com/wiki/Super_Mario_RPG/Script_dump), and I'm sure I remember there were various JP sites that did transcribe most of it from live playthroughs to text too (this is one copy (http://www.lltvg.com/wiki/Super_Mario_RPG/Transcript) provided by MewSeeker).

Not meaning to dwell on it any further, but this as a bare minimum should have been one of the first questions you addressed for your project. I think I'll wait for future updates for your project or other projects for this game, but I do still consider it a step in the right direction.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: CoolCatBomberMan on May 12, 2021, 10:19:00 pm
Clyde Mandelin (a professional Japanese to English translator well known for spearheading the Mother 3 fantranslation) has translated every single Psychopath quote for an article. I'm surprised no one has brought it up so far: https://legendsoflocalization.com/the-pop-culture-obsessed-monsters-in-japanese-super-mario-rpg/

Not EVERY quote, just the ones referencing Japanese pop culture. It was one of the resources I used for the hack.

Speaking of which, I have decided to completely and utterly retool the hack into a full retranslation/relocalization! I figure that the best way to handle hate from purists is to create a larger-scoped hack with alternate patches for customization purposes. That being said, I will NOT be asking for help from nejimakipiyo, or any other translator. I may not know Japanese, but I have been studying kana, Level 10 kanji, and Japanese sentence structure for the past few years, to the point where I believe I can run each individual word through various dictionaries, and understand the general gist of the sentence. I don't want to waste some poor, overworked translator's time with my technical ineptitude, after all. (I am strictly limited to Lazy Shell's capabilities).

I'm still burned out with this game, though, so I have no idea when I will even start, or how long it will be before I'm finished. Thanks to all those who have shown support for my hack in its current state! Your words mean so much to me!

...

While transcribing it is definitively an option, what you're supposed to do is to extract the Japanese graphics for the whole font, interpret that as kana and kanji, produce a text table, and extract the entire Japanese text.
I don't know whether LazyShell supports JP version roms, but it's probably not the case if you're even asking the question.

There were others who previously toyed with a complete text dump for the JP SMRPG.
A Wonderbar plugin (http://tomato.fobby.net/wanderbar/) (intercepting the text data as it's processed by the emulation) by tomato supports it, for example.
tashi attempted a script dump (from the text data) for the JP version at LLTVG (http://www.lltvg.com/wiki/Super_Mario_RPG/Script_dump), and I'm sure I remember there were various JP sites that did transcribe most of it from live playthroughs to text too (this is one copy (http://www.lltvg.com/wiki/Super_Mario_RPG/Transcript) provided by MewSeeker).

Not meaning to dwell on it any further, but this as a bare minimum should have been one of the first questions you addressed for your project. I think I'll wait for future updates for your project or other projects for this game, but I do still consider it a step in the right direction.

You posted that as I was typing this. That's definitely some good advice! I might actually be able to start right away!

EDIT: .......Whoa. I really need to get working this update. Remember Boomer's death scene? In the hack, I changed the chandelier Shy Guy's dialogue because I thought his original quote (oh, you'll be alright!) was added by Woolsey to censor the scene. Turns out, I was wrong. The Shy Guy really does say that. From what I'm reading, it seems like Boomer is talking in an overdramatic tone, kinda like Kumadori from One Piece, who constantly threatens to commit Seppuku because he's a total drama queen. Woolsey simply left out Boomer's tone, which I'm sure could've translated into English SOMEHOW. So.......yeah. I'm not a big fan of Woolsey.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: KobaBeach on May 13, 2021, 01:34:12 am
No offense but what is the point of a re-translation to improve upon the original translation for a more faithful rendition, if you don't even know Japanese? That defeats the purpose entirely. I'm glad you put it as improvement and not translation, but as a localization, original text and language learning enthusiast I'm confused.

I get localizing Japanese pop culture that wouldn't be understandable to most westerners but it feels very amateur, like you add FF references as a quick one size fits all fix and. I feel like you should focus on learning some Japanese before tackling a rewrite.

As much as I like his translations, I'm not saying you can't rewrite "Our Lord And Savio(u)r Theodore Woolsey"'s "hard labor", I'm just saying if you're gonna do something like this, at least understand the source language.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: Tomato on May 13, 2021, 03:13:42 am
I don't know if this was used at all, but I did a translation comparison stream of SMRPG about 4 years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxo9Ve0LWW4&list=PL8fufren85t_E6vw92iocjusuqJTl03j8
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: knight0fdragon on May 13, 2021, 03:25:07 am
No offense but what is the point of a re-translation to improve upon the original translation for a more faithful rendition, if you don't even know Japanese? That defeats the purpose entirely. I'm glad you put it as improvement and not translation, but as a localization, original text and language learning enthusiast I'm confused.

I get localizing Japanese pop culture that wouldn't be understandable to most westerners but it feels very amateur, like you add FF references as a quick one size fits all fix and. I feel like you should focus on learning some Japanese before tackling a rewrite.

As much as I like his translations, I'm not saying you can't rewrite "Our Lord And Savio(u)r Theodore Woolsey"'s "hard labor", I'm just saying if you're gonna do something like this, at least understand the source language.

You act like there are not a plethora of resources out there that cannot assist in providing a more faithful translation.  You can also understand the meaning behind a language without understanding the actual language itself.  This helps when it comes to working with machine translations.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: Chicken Knife on May 13, 2021, 07:21:23 am
I love this fighting spirit to push yourself to the next level with Japanese. :woot!: Neji and I were just chatting about it. Please keep in mind that even when you attain a solid functionality with Japanese, you are still going to encounter a lot of cryptic expressions or lines that seem subtly off in English that you'll have a very difficult time navigating accurately without running by more advanced Japanese speakers, or especially native ones. There is absolutely nothing wrong with brainstorming lines with others as part of the learning process when you aren't finding clear answers yourself.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: CoolCatBomberMan on May 13, 2021, 12:58:51 pm
I don't know if this was used at all, but I did a translation comparison stream of SMRPG about 4 years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxo9Ve0LWW4&list=PL8fufren85t_E6vw92iocjusuqJTl03j8

Wish I knew about that earlier! Now I have another resource to cross-reference! Thanks!
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: Chaud on May 13, 2021, 01:33:01 pm
Well, get used to it, man. As more and more people keep abandoning the translation scene, burned out of the usual negativity, drama and such, we'll have to rely more and more on automatic translations (I'm playing Madara 2 right now by using a real-time text extractor that I've coded myself and pasting the dialogs on DeepL and, frankly, the translations returned are coherent 90% of the time, making the game completely playable and following the plot really well. I wish I had done this much earlier).

Honestly, the translations from DeepL don't come out that bad. I mean, they are far from perfect, but I would say that with a good proofreading by an editor to fix some details, the final result can come out surprisingly good, even better than official translations sometimes. For example, there are a number of Chinese games called Tale of Wuxia (among others) where the official translation can be more confusing in many ways than a machine translation, which is surprising. Obviously I'm not saying it's the same case when it comes to SMRPG, but my point is just that a good editor can save a script if he knows how to write well and has a good grasp of the content in general.

But doing a machine translation only makes sense if the original translation simply does not exist, or is in a deplorable state. SMRPG is no amazing example of a great translation, but it is functional as is. Honestly, I admire the dedication, but I think in this context it was a misplaced effort - because in practice, we are trading one problem for another.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: AwesomeHairo on May 13, 2021, 04:40:34 pm
I have a question: why keep the "?!" ? It wasn't like that in the Japanese script.

Also, you've forgot commas after 'Hey's and you put commas when it's not necessary 😂.

It just needs to be proof-read and some changes made. For example, with this:

"It's our first step towards taking[1] over this world![3] And if it weren't for nosey[1] characters like YOU...[2] We'd practically OWN the world!"

I changed it to: "It's our first step towards taking[1] over this world![3] And if it weren't for nosey[1] characters like YOU...[2] We'd practically OWN it!" I hope you understand why.

Lastly, about the "all right/alright" thing that is common in localising: Much like FF IX where they only use 'alright', SMRPG exclusively use 'all right'. Like I did with FF IX dialogue, I split the uses so 'alright' is used for interjections like, "Alright, let's go!", and 'all right' with confirming the well-being of someone ("Are you all right?", "I'm glad everyone is all right.")

I hope this helps if you ever do a revision.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: Cristal on May 13, 2021, 06:33:06 pm
I'd like to point out some links that could be helpful for your project:

https://www.mariowiki.com/Category:Super_Mario_RPG:_Legend_of_the_Seven_Stars_Characters
https://www.mariowiki.com/Category:Super_Mario_RPG:_Legend_of_the_Seven_Stars_Bosses
https://www.mariowiki.com/Category:Super_Mario_RPG:_Legend_of_the_Seven_Stars_Places
https://www.mariowiki.com/Category:Super_Mario_RPG:_Legend_of_the_Seven_Stars_Items
https://www.mariowiki.com/Category:Super_Mario_RPG:_Legend_of_the_Seven_Stars_Enemies
https://www.mariowiki.com/Category:Super_Mario_RPG:_Legend_of_the_Seven_Stars_Moves

They list both the English and Japanese names of the game's stuff accordingly, including translated meanings.

Many things were inaccurately/incorrectly translated in the official translation. Some examples:

The attack "Drain" is called "かきゅう / 火球" (Fire Orb) in the original, which makes sense since the move does look like like a fireball.

"Light Beam" is "虹色シャボン" (Rainbow-colored Soap/Bubble). Indeed the attack looks nothing like a light beam.

"Water Blast" is "水蒸気爆発" (Steam Explosion). When I played the game back then I always wondered why Czar/Kaiser Dragon (a fire monster) was using a water elemental move, and same for the Earth Crystal instead of the Water one. Sure, there's the kanji for water (水) in the Japanese word for steam, which is probably what threw Woolsey off, but still.

As for some items:

Energizer = ツヨクナール / 強くなる (Get Stronger)
Bracer = カタクナール / 硬くなる (Get Stiffer)
Power Blast = ミンナツヨクナール / みんな強くなる (Everyone Get Stronger)
Crystalline = ミンナカタクナール / みんな硬くなる (Everyone Get Stiffer)

The naming convention is simpler, more descriptive and consistent in Japanese. You can already tell what the items do from their names alone.

By the way, "Pure Water" is actually "せいすい" (Holy Water), which explains why it's effective against undead monsters. But it's understandable why the taboo word "holy" would get censored by NoA back then.

For some monsters:

"Axem Rangers" is "オノフォース" (Axe Force), which is the name of the rangers' battleship. After beating all of the 5, you actually fight the ship itself, not their combined forces.

Exor/Calibur's "Neosquid" is just its mouth (くち). It's inexplicable why Woolsey translated it that way.

There are many other examples of inaccuracies like those, and you can find more by looking at those lists. I think this should be enough to give you an idea, though.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: Josephine Lithius on May 13, 2021, 07:51:27 pm
I'm just gonna add my two cents in here instead of writing a whole review.  And my two cents is… this "reworking" is really inconsistent and weird.  And that's just from playing up to the first star.

Some things got changed to their Japanese counterparts.  An example of this is the Frogog enemy in Bandit's Way.  Its original name was "Richard" (possibly a reference to The Frog for Whom the Bell Tolls, a Japanese RPG), so it's named "Richard" here.
Some things got a tune-up or redo on their name.  For example, "Kerokero Cola" was renamed "Croak-a-Cola" as a reference to Coca-Cola.  This was done because the Japanese name, "Kerokero Dorinku", is a reference to "Chero-Cola", the old name for Royal Crown (RC) Cola.
And then… there's a whole slew of things that were left completely alone for reasons I don't understand.  "Terrapin" instead of "Koopa Soldier" (or "Koopatrol" a'la Paper Mario?)?  "Spikey" instead of "Spike Trooper" or "Spiny"?  And most baffling of all… "Princess Toadstool" instead of "Princess Peach"?!  If you were gonna name-swap things to match the Japanese version, that one should've been first on your list!

I think I understand why this started life as a personal project just for yourself, CoolCatBomberMan. (… Cat Bomber (https://bomberman.fandom.com/wiki/Cat_Bomber)?)  From an outsider's perspective, there's no real rhyme or reason to a lot of what was or wasn't changed.  It was vastly just a case of "I don't like it" or "this could use some work" – much the same as I did with the extremely unfinished Pokémon Gen I story revamp that I  injected into what was otherwise player character swap.  And that's fine.  I'm just really confused as to why the hack wasn't presented as such.

When the readme promises things like "Mistranslated monster/item names fixed", it tends to paint a particular type of picture…  Ya know?

Also…
Bracer = カタクナール / 硬くなる (Get Stiffer)
Crystalline = ミンナカタクナール / みんな硬くなる (Everyone Get Stiffer)
… *snicker*
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: Cristal on May 13, 2021, 08:31:05 pm
Also…… *snicker*

Spoiler:
"Get Harder / Everyone Get Harder" would be even more accurate.  :P
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: CoolCatBomberMan on May 14, 2021, 02:40:23 am
I have a question: why keep the "?!" ? It wasn't like that in the Japanese script.

Also, you've forgot commas after 'Hey's and you put commas when it's not necessary 😂.

It just needs to be proof-read and some changes made. For example, with this:

"It's our first step towards taking[1] over this world![3] And if it weren't for nosey[1] characters like YOU...[2] We'd practically OWN the world!"

I changed it to: "It's our first step towards taking[1] over this world![3] And if it weren't for nosey[1] characters like YOU...[2] We'd practically OWN it!" I hope you understand why.

Lastly, about the "all right/alright" thing that is common in localising: Much like FF IX where they only use 'alright', SMRPG exclusively use 'all right'. Like I did with FF IX dialogue, I split the uses so 'alright' is used for interjections like, "Alright, let's go!", and 'all right' with confirming the well-being of someone ("Are you all right?", "I'm glad everyone is all right.")

I hope this helps if you ever do a revision.

Let me reiterate: I'm overhauling the project. Starting over from scratch, and widening the scope significantly. There is plenty of documentation on the Japanese script, and Tomato, who translated Mother 3, did a livestream of the game, pointing out differences in the JP text. As an example, let me show you how I relocalized the line you posted:

"And yet, wherever we go, there's[1] always some pretentious “hero”[1] like you showing up uninvited..."

What I'm experiencing so far with Woolsey's writing style is that he overemphasizes one minor detail, sacrificing another in the process. JP Exor never mentioned taking over the world in that specific line because he already did so in the previous line. By "trimming the fat," so to speak, I'm able to get more points across in a similar amount of space.

I'd like to point out some links that could be helpful for your project:

https://www.mariowiki.com/Category:Super_Mario_RPG:_Legend_of_the_Seven_Stars_Characters
https://www.mariowiki.com/Category:Super_Mario_RPG:_Legend_of_the_Seven_Stars_Bosses
https://www.mariowiki.com/Category:Super_Mario_RPG:_Legend_of_the_Seven_Stars_Places
https://www.mariowiki.com/Category:Super_Mario_RPG:_Legend_of_the_Seven_Stars_Items
https://www.mariowiki.com/Category:Super_Mario_RPG:_Legend_of_the_Seven_Stars_Enemies
https://www.mariowiki.com/Category:Super_Mario_RPG:_Legend_of_the_Seven_Stars_Moves

They list both the English and Japanese names of the game's stuff accordingly, including translated meanings.

Well, that just makes things easier for me, particularly with organizing notes.

I'm just gonna add my two cents in here instead of writing a whole review.  And my two cents is… this "reworking" is really inconsistent and weird.  And that's just from playing up to the first star.

Some things got changed to their Japanese counterparts.  An example of this is the Frogog enemy in Bandit's Way.  Its original name was "Richard" (possibly a reference to The Frog for Whom the Bell Tolls, a Japanese RPG), so it's named "Richard" here.
Some things got a tune-up or redo on their name.  For example, "Kerokero Cola" was renamed "Croak-a-Cola" as a reference to Coca-Cola.  This was done because the Japanese name, "Kerokero Dorinku", is a reference to "Chero-Cola", the old name for Royal Crown (RC) Cola.
And then… there's a whole slew of things that were left completely alone for reasons I don't understand.  "Terrapin" instead of "Koopa Soldier" (or "Koopatrol" a'la Paper Mario?)?  "Spikey" instead of "Spike Trooper" or "Spiny"?  And most baffling of all… "Princess Toadstool" instead of "Princess Peach"?!  If you were gonna name-swap things to match the Japanese version, that one should've been first on your list!

I think I understand why this started life as a personal project just for yourself, CoolCatBomberMan. (… Cat Bomber (https://bomberman.fandom.com/wiki/Cat_Bomber)?)  From an outsider's perspective, there's no real rhyme or reason to a lot of what was or wasn't changed.  It was vastly just a case of "I don't like it" or "this could use some work" – much the same as I did with the extremely unfinished Pokémon Gen I story revamp that I  injected into what was otherwise player character swap.  And that's fine.  I'm just really confused as to why the hack wasn't presented as such.

When the readme promises things like "Mistranslated monster/item names fixed", it tends to paint a particular type of picture…  Ya know?

Also…… *snicker*

I admit, I could've gone farther with the fixes. That's why I'm starting over. But you better believe I'm keeping "Croak-a-Cola." And for the "purists" out there, I'll have an optional patch that doesn't change any names, places, items, attacks or monsters.

EDIT: Cat Bomber is news to me. I was actually going for Top Cat. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Cat)
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: Heaven Piercing Man on May 14, 2021, 03:30:20 am
I love you guys. Each day my rom collection is closer to being completely free of the curse of Woolsey. I have TRIED countless times to be okay with them, but each time I end up cringing at the "le random ebin maymay" style, the edgy oneliners, the verbal tics, the "creatively cliché liberties" with the naming conventions in the bestiary, moves, and items in both FF6 and SMRPG, and the legacy of countless "meme translators" who are now running the asylum in the anime dubbing industry. And the purists everywhere who can't shut up about "The Only True Canon Version of FF6" to newcomers or keep whining about Square Enix removing their precious ebin maymay edgy oneliners make my blood boil.

Finally a thread where I can vent. Best of luck to you.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: sharksnack on May 14, 2021, 06:34:51 am
It's an interesting effort, but I think if you're going to throw shade at the original translation to this degree and claim to fix mistranslations, references, censorship, etc., you need to be able to actually read and understand the source material. Otherwise those claims are mostly bogus outside of whatever articles like legends of localization you're taking ideas from as a guide to what can be improved upon. It's essentially playing a game of telephone.

If it were presented as a "modern rewrite of Super Mario RPG" or something instead, you likely wouldn't receive as much criticism, and it'd be easier to enjoy it for what it is.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: KobaBeach on May 15, 2021, 02:38:50 pm
You act like there are not a plethora of resources out there that cannot assist in providing a more faithful translation.  You can also understand the meaning behind a language without understanding the actual language itself.  This helps when it comes to working with machine translations.
Okay, I'm gonna try to ask this as nice as I can but. Why are you taking machine translations as a guide? Like, I use them for quick translations of something I wish to read, but I always make a point of looking up on Jisho and whatnot to make sure of the proper meaning, because machine translations are, a lot of the times, inaccurate and untrustworthy. You cannot translate without knowing the source language. I'm sorry.

I love you guys. Each day my rom collection is closer to being completely free of the curse of Woolsey. I have TRIED countless times to be okay with them, but each time I end up cringing at the "le random ebin maymay" style, the edgy oneliners, the verbal tics, the "creatively cliché liberties" with the naming conventions in the bestiary, moves, and items in both FF6 and SMRPG, and the legacy of countless "meme translators" who are now running the asylum in the anime dubbing industry. And the purists everywhere who can't shut up about "The Only True Canon Version of FF6" to newcomers or keep whining about Square Enix removing their precious ebin maymay edgy oneliners make my blood boil.

Finally a thread where I can vent. Best of luck to you.
are you confusing him with ireland because most of the injokes and liberties woolsey gets usually like pass for normal dialogue or are taken in an invironment where there was barely any context given during translation while ireland is like naming tootsie pops by name

this entire post seems like the people who got mad at the gamergate joke in the prison school dub or whatever that bad anime was
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: VicVergil on May 15, 2021, 07:00:19 pm
Okay, I'm gonna try to ask this as nice as I can but. Why are you taking machine translations as a guide? Like, I use them for quick translations of something I wish to read, but I always make a point of looking up on Jisho and whatnot to make sure of the proper meaning, because machine translations are, a lot of the times, inaccurate and untrustworthy. You cannot translate without knowing the source language. I'm sorry.
are you confusing him with ireland because most of the injokes and liberties woolsey gets usually like pass for normal dialogue or are taken in an invironment where there was barely any context given during translation while ireland is like naming tootsie pops by name

this entire post seems like the people who got mad at the gamergate joke in the prison school dub or whatever that bad anime was


The "joke" that was so bad Funimation redubbed it for the Blu-Ray reprint? Are you actually defending that kind of thing? That kind of undermines anything you said about translations before.
It's one thing for translators to use machine translations, have incomplete translations, incorrect interpretations, Engrish, because at least it was their honest best attempt held back by their incompetence. A lot of Woolsey lines fall under that (ROM size limitations, lack of context, censorship mandates, or just plain incompetence).
Even translators like Working Designs who inject shit pop culture can be not blamed too much because their hubris led to them thinking they are good game designers, brilliant and funny scriptwriters, or that it would sell the game more, even though it was generally the opposite (like their handling of Silhouette Mirage causing game reviewers back then to recommend importing the Japanese Saturn version instead, or getting more than a couple games held back for review...)

I have no such kind words to spare to a "translator" using someone else's work for their completely unrelated personal opinions or internet warring that unnecessarily dragged down an innocent work in internet drama and made it the focal focus why it's even remembered. It's not lost on me either that they don't hide their contempt for the audience (which they assume are part of the group they're exchanging blows and harassment with) and the work itself (that it's, in your words, a "shitty anime", and in their words, the original lines weren't worth jack shit and were elevated by something that doesn't amount much more than a twitter rant.)
Furthermore, it's spreading this internet drama even further for people who haven't heard of it.
This alone disqualifies the translator. If you hate what you're translating, and see enemies in all of your audience, then maybe you should do something else more worthwhile than the big budget equivalent of an internet troll throwing a line and then fishing for reactions.

Snack World was universally panned for following the Prison School and Mighty No. 9 school of "let's insert our angry twitter rants and ship them in the game to trigger the weebs!" even by people "on the same ideological side" as the translator. I don't GET why it's so hard to get that dragging your personal baggage and opinions completely alien to the game is such a cringe thing to do?

I am puzzled why you felt the need to present rejection to something that's far worse than anything Working Designs did so far, imply it's such a ridiculous notion (and not common sense for translation purists... unless you're implying you're willing to accuse them of more nefarious political affiliations?), and then ...

compare a critic of Woosley to that?!
What's the big idea here?
You're willing to shame people with implying political affiliations so that they stop talking about translation theory in ways you don't want? And yes Woolsey (later Squaresoft) could get as bad as Working Designs at times, like random Star Wars quotes that sound cool instead of whatever ideas the final boss/extra bosses had, or "Bruce Lee" in SMRPG. It's perfectly valid to ask for better translations for games he touched, including but not limited to Breath of Fire 1, Final Fantasy 6, Chrono Trigger, and more.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: tc on May 16, 2021, 12:40:51 am
Simple. I don't care about the translator's pop culture interests, political ideologies, or any of that.
If one wants to make a spoof translation, make one. A credible project should never be a soapbox.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: Red Soul on May 16, 2021, 12:54:33 am
Simple. I don't care about the translator's pop culture interests, political ideologies, or any of that.
If one wants to make a spoof translation, make one. A credible project should never be a soapbox.

Agreed. Having silly inserts or personal opinions within a script that has no room for such things both feels and reads infantile at best, tendencious at worst.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: Bonesy on May 16, 2021, 02:00:36 am
don't like a project? make your own or ignore it
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: tc on May 17, 2021, 01:24:56 am
That's not to say you should dismiss your audience. Japanese idioms lost on English speakers will only rub off as awkward.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: gamingcat02261991 on May 17, 2021, 04:59:54 am
To be truthful, despite Woolsey's constant errors regarding things like enemy names and the name of one location in the game, I preferred the original game prior to this hack's release, especially since it was the last known game where Peach went by her English name, Princess Toadstool, before Super Mario 64 gave her a combination of her English and Japanese names until the English name was ditched for all of her future appearances. And the author's comment about changing cringe-inducing puns in the hack's description kind of reminds me of issues of Nintendo Power after switching over to Future US where Sonic was quoted by the writers as making "groan-inducing puns" in his games, even though one of the drawbacks was their criticism of Big the Cat due to his size and laid-back way of talking. Oh, and CoolCatBomberMan, even though you thought uploading this ROM Hack was a mistake and wanted it deleted, it actually was a good idea.
Title: Re: ROM Hacks: Super Mario RPG's much-needed text edit, now updated!
Post by: Heaven Piercing Man on May 18, 2021, 04:47:26 am
are you confusing him with ireland because most of the injokes and liberties woolsey gets usually like pass for normal dialogue or are taken in an invironment where there was barely any context given during translation while ireland is like naming tootsie pops by name

this entire post seems like the people who got mad at the gamergate joke in the prison school dub or whatever that bad anime was

I've never played a Wrecking Designs game and thank God for that.