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Romhacking => ROM Hacking Discussion => Topic started by: hairy_hen on June 10, 2019, 03:21:58 pm

Title: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: hairy_hen on June 10, 2019, 03:21:58 pm
Hello everyone, I'm a newcomer to this forum, but I have an interesting project to share with all of you.

I've recently completed work on a large scale rewrite of the script for Final Fantasy 6, using the recent 'live translation' by Clyde Mandelin (Mato) from Legends of Localization as a guide.  He posted many notes on his website about some of the most significant translation issues he found, but they are only a small percentage of the topics discussed in the videos.  While I initially started watching them only out of curiosity, it soon became apparent that the errors in the SNES script were so numerous and so extensive that the meaning of the story was often drastically different than in the source Japanese text.  The deeper down this rabbit hole I went, the harder it became to ignore the problems, and eventually I decided that the only thing to do was to go through Mato's video series with a fine-toothed comb and fix all of the problems he mentioned.

So for the past two months I have been doing a 'live edit' of the FF6 script, rewriting the dialog line by line, minute by minute while watching the videos and listening to Mato explain the meaning of what was actually being said.  I have very little knowledge of the Japanese language, so I was completely dependent on him for all of this information.  The videos also contained a comparison with the GBA script, as well as the SkyRender fan translation.  Even a cursory examination reveals that the GBA version is by far the most accurate translation out there, while the fan version is extremely problematic (he frequently likened it to the notorious J2E version of FF4).

So why not just port the GBA script into the SNES version?  Another project has already done this, and it is certainly a valid way to go.  But for myself, I felt that even though its accuracy level is so high, the GBA's specific wording often left something to be desired.  I found that I was not content merely to copy and paste lines from other versions, but instead ended up rewriting a great deal of them myself, relying solely on Mato's assessment of what they meant in Japanese.

I was careful to make the dialog sound natural in English, and often ended up changing the wording quite substantially from how it appears in any other version, but preserving the meaning and nuance of the source material was my first priority.  In cases where Mato gave the GBA script the stamp of approval on accuracy and I liked how it was phrased, I did often end up using them directly.  Lines from the SNES script that were accurately translated to begin with and did not contain errors were generally left alone.  Since there were some lines that got missed during the video series, I did occasionally have to consult other sources when there was doubt about what something meant.  I tried to use them as little as possible, however, because they tend to be accompanied by an unfortunate amount of Woolsey-bashing that can be rather unpleasant to read.  I have a lot of respect for Woolsey; that his version contains so many errors is a product of the difficult conditions in which he had to work (ie, insanely short deadline, lack of context when looking at the script, no help or resources from anyone else in the company, and severe space constraints).

It also has to be said that Woolsey displayed a higher level of creativity in his writing than other versions have done, which resulted in the large number of iconic lines that people remember fondly to this day.  I'm a newcomer to the Final Fantasy series, having only played FF6 for the first time about a year ago, so I don't really have a specific attachment to any pre-existing version of the script, but it was easy to recognize the positive qualities of the SNES version despite all its errors, and it was not uncommon to find myself choosing to retain various lines from the original release even though they were changes from the Japanese.  Kefka's dialog, in particular, really stands out and I kept as much of it as I could.  When choosing to keep this sort of 'flavor text', the general guideline I followed was that it could stay in if it made things sound better and if it had no negative impact on the story.  If the meaning of what was happening in the scene was affected, however, then it would get changed back for the sake of accuracy, though sometimes I still tried to retain the idea behind it if it made sense to do so.

I also did a great deal of research on Early Modern English, in order to make Cyan's dialog convincingly sound like someone from that time.  His frequent usage of 'thou' as a substitute for the archaic Japanese 'de gozaru' was an excellent localization choice, though its application needed strengthening.  This is the kind of thing that should be approached with caution, because it is very difficult for anyone from modern times to write in this sort of style without ending up sounding like what tvtropes calls 'Ye Butchered Olde Englishe'.  The grammar and syntax are just different enough so as to be difficult to pick up on the subtleties if you haven't been exposed them frequently enough.  I grew up being made to read the King James Bible quite a lot, so it was easy for me to identify problems and adjust them accordingly, but even so I had to do a lot of referencing to make sure I was writing in this style correctly.  I probably ended up putting more effort into this aspect of the script than any other, because I really wanted him to sound believably archaic without going too far overboard.

When I started this project, I had no intention of doing anything other than making a few minor edits to the script for my own personal use.  The whole thing kind of snowballed, however, and ended up being an enormous undertaking that more or less consumed my life for the past two months.  Because there seems to be an interest from various people in a version of the script with the qualities that my work has, I eventually decided (actually with some reluctance) that I should release this version publicly, so that others could play the game this way too.

My hesitation was very great, however, because I initially used Ted Woolsey Uncensored Edition as my base.  I like that version a great deal because it has had so much excellent work done to it, and I planned at first to retain it while editing the script in my own way.  Over time my revisions ended up becoming so extensive that it no longer fit with that version's stated goal, so eventually I ended up making it a separate project rather than an addendum in order to simplify things for the end user.


As of 7-25-2019, the project is titled Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated, and is available here: http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4619/ (http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/4619/)
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (script rewrite based on Legends of Localization translation)
Post by: svenge on June 11, 2019, 03:15:59 pm
Looking forward to seeing how it turns out!  :)
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (script rewrite based on Legends of Localization translation)
Post by: hairy_hen on June 13, 2019, 07:39:15 pm
I'm glad to hear there is interest in my work.  I'm very close to being ready to release this thing; I just need to make a readme file and get some screenshots, and maybe give it one final look just to make sure there isn't anything I missed.

I'm in the process of putting together an annotated version of the script with notes on what changed in this version and why I wrote it as I did.  It should be helpful as a reference to anyone who is looking to make script edits or is curious about the meaning of the story but doesn't have time to go through all of Mato's video series.

One of the most important things I found while working on this is that the plot is quite a bit more coherent in the Japanese script.  When I first played it, there were some places where I recall being confused about what was happening, or that something important had happened and I'd somehow missed it.  It turns out that these instances are squarely down to errors that obscured the meaning of the story.  There are a number of conversations in the original SNES release that don't 'flow' quite right; that is, they can seem like disconnected sentences strung together rather than people actually exchanging ideas about a topic.  (And of course this is mainly down to the lack of context and short deadline.)  But when the lines are translated in context with full knowledge of the scenario, the game's dialog very noticeably 'shifts into focus'.  Suddenly things that didn't make sense become clear, it's easy to understand who is referring to what within a sentence, and every line in a conversation flows naturally from one to the next.  This can be a subtle difference, but in many places it is quite noticeable.  The scene where you first meet Strago and Relm comes to mind right away as an example, but there are others.

There's also some critical information that just didn't make it in.  The biggest example of this is Locke's subplot: near the end when he finds the Phoenix Magicite, it seems like it comes completely out of nowhere, and I distinctly remember feeling like the game's writers had pulled this 'reviving Rachel' thing out of their behinds at the last minute.  But no, it turns out that he's actually been searching all along for a specific legendary treasure that can bring back the dead, and in Japanese this is foreshadowed repeatedly and far in advance.  Of course if you've played a version with the GBA script you may have picked up on this already, but for people like me who haven't, this was quite surprising to learn.  And the fact that much of the foreshadowing happens in NPC dialog means that most of the available scripts posted online don't have it, since they only cover the main story events.

I've noticed that when people talk about different translations of FF6, they seem to show a tendency to be more interested in the specific wording of things than in the overall idea of what is being said.  There's a lot of talk about the merits of specific lines and which version is better because of how it conveys its information, but not as much focus on what the information actually is.  Obviously style is important, and I put a lot of effort into getting this right, but my priority was usually on making sure the story information was accurately conveyed.

Anyway, I think we're looking at this being released sometime next week, and the annotated script should be ready not too long after that.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (script rewrite based on Legends of Localization translation)
Post by: TheGershon on June 17, 2019, 04:07:34 am
This sounds totally like what I think a translation should be, getting the original message across while sounding normal when read aloud. As someone who's never gotten very far in FF6, I can't wait to play it!
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (script rewrite based on Legends of Localization translation)
Post by: Vanya on June 18, 2019, 05:37:37 am
Anything that has input from Legends of Localization gets my attention.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (script rewrite based on Legends of Localization translation)
Post by: PowerPanda on June 18, 2019, 05:03:41 pm
There are already several of these. The two main ones are
Ted Woolsey Uncensored Edition: http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/1386/
Final Fantasy VI Relocalization Project: http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/2247/

Honestly, the Relocalization Project is so good that I think you'd have a very hard time convincing people to play through and test your script. If you DO move forward though, head over to ff6hacking.com. There's an extensive community there.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (script rewrite based on Legends of Localization translation)
Post by: the_E_y_Es on June 18, 2019, 07:00:49 pm
Cool. I'd be interested to see your take on the FF6 script. My favorite SNES RPG by a mile.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (script rewrite based on Legends of Localization translation)
Post by: svenge on June 18, 2019, 08:36:50 pm
Honestly, the Relocalization Project is so good that I think you'd have a very hard time convincing people to play through and test your script. If you DO move forward though, head over to ff6hacking.com. There's an extensive community there.

There's some glitches introduced in that patch's most recent revision that haven't been fixed in several months.  I tweeted as such to the creator back in March, and did get a response of "Thanks for the heads-up. I'll look into it." at that time.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (script rewrite based on Legends of Localization translation)
Post by: Chicken Knife on June 18, 2019, 09:12:58 pm
There's some glitches introduced in that patch's most recent revision that haven't been fixed in several months.  I tweeted as such to the creator back in March, and did get a response of "Thanks for the heads-up. I'll look into it." at that time.
I've also tweeted back and forth with Dr. Meat over various issues in Relocalization. It's a really beautiful piece of writing and I truly hope he gets on the ball with fixing it up.

But that said, if this author can pull off a translation that is both natural sounding and more accurate, I would be very interested in checking it out. Translations with liberties are fine, but I really do appreciate when a translation can closely capture the spirit of the Japanese without being bogged down by the structure of it.

I would vote for using the Japanese names like Tina and Mash. I know that has been done before in a much older fan translation but the writing was so poor that I really can't play it anymore. The Japanese names are great though!
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (script rewrite based on Legends of Localization translation)
Post by: Rodimus Primal on June 18, 2019, 11:24:19 pm
I wish you the best of luck with this, especially since you are using Ted Woolsey Uncensored Editoin as a base ROM to edit the script on. I will let you know that I've been working on a major update to TWUE using notes from Legends of Localization AND Kwazit to iron it out smoothly.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (script rewrite based on Legends of Localization translation)
Post by: hairy_hen on June 19, 2019, 02:36:36 am
Thanks, I appreciate that.  Currently I'm about halfway through making the annotated script.  I didn't put comments on every line, but anything that stood out as being significant gets an explanation.  Hopefully it will be helpful for TWUE updates as well as being a general reference.  I only found out about the Kwhazit translation very recently, so it didn't have a large effect on this version, but I did end up using it to help with several last-minute edits.

I knew it might be difficult to convince people that another version of the script would be worth bothering with, especially when there are several great versions out there already, but the only thing to do is to let the work speak for itself.

Regarding the character names: it had not occurred to me to change them until just now, but it's an idea worth considering.  If I did, I'd probably make a second patch so that the player would have a choice of which names they'd want to use.

I'm expecting to release this in the next day or two; it just needs these few last minute details to be ironed out.  By the way, if anyone has any ideas on what to call this version, let me know!
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (script rewrite based on Legends of Localization translation)
Post by: tc on June 19, 2019, 03:20:55 am
FF6 isn't my first choice, but let's get this done right for good.
I'm critical of the same game receiving multiple script edits. :)
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (script rewrite based on Legends of Localization translation)
Post by: Pennywise on June 19, 2019, 07:20:32 pm
I can't fault someone for wanting to work on a game that's already been done to death. Most get people get into this hobby due to their own interests and are free to pursue whatever they wish. So I say go for it.

That said, I'd personally like to see someone do something akin to Gemini FFIV VWF edition (sadly unfinished) with FFVI, but with a new script like yours. I believe that would make for the ultimate version of FFVI as far as translations are concerned.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (script rewrite based on Legends of Localization translation)
Post by: Heaven Piercing Man on June 20, 2019, 03:35:40 am
As long as the relocalization sources move away from Lina and Render, we'll be fine. Tomato and Kwhazit should be the gold standard. Slattery and Woolsey should be "flair" standard.

I'll admit I want to make a definitive faithful, region-neutral, Spanish translation like that but as an addendum to the bugfixed, enhanced mods these projects are being released with. So I'm just waiting for one of these to go gold. The current ones in said language are still stuck in Woolseyland.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (script rewrite based on Legends of Localization translation)
Post by: hairy_hen on June 22, 2019, 03:17:33 pm
And... it's done!

I have not yet submitted the project to the database, because I want to write up some more accompanying documentation.  It is also still in need of a title; I have one in mind, but want to make sure before going ahead with it.

I'm always reticent about anyone seeing my work until it is finalized, but this has been proofread and edited so much that any further changes would probably just end up making it less good.  That said, if there are any mistakes present, let me know so I can fix them.

It's been a lot of time and work to get this done, but I think it was well worth it.  I hope you guys will enjoy playing this version as much as I've enjoyed making it.  And once again, thanks to everyone whose awesome work and skill made this possible!
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: svenge on June 23, 2019, 06:05:22 am
Quick question:  Are there any bug-fixes integrated into this translation?
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: hairy_hen on June 23, 2019, 04:25:25 pm
This version contains all the bug fixes included by Rodimus Primal for Woolsey Uncensored.  I think the game plays better with them, but perhaps I could also make a patch without if there is a call for it.  Even the un-fixed version still repairs the Sketch bug, though.

I wanted to include the Vanish/Doom bugfix as well, but for some reason I started getting minor glitches in the text box when I applied it.  Not sure why, but it's probably either something to do with the order of patching or the issue of some patches needing a header while others don't.  I'll try again later to see if I can get it straightened out.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: svenge on June 23, 2019, 04:41:32 pm
Sounds good.  Glad to see it got the bugfixes that WU had.

EDIT: I found a bug during the opening battles when Terra, Biggs, and Wedge are fighting in Magitek Armor.  For some reason you can actually select the blank spaces in Biggs/Wedge's attack menu (there's Fire/Lightning/Blizzard/Healing and 4 empty slots) and then upon their turn a blank box will appear and the character will move forward to attack (and always miss).

I tested Mog's Dance menu and it thankfully didn't have the same problem.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: hairy_hen on June 24, 2019, 01:28:27 am
I tested it and confirmed that this bug is present in Woolsey Uncensored, but not in the unhacked game.  If a fix is found, it will make its way into this version as well.

Found a couple of very small typos that had escaped my notice previously, so they've now been fixed.  I'm also going to change a couple of SNES lines that I'd previously kept in, to make them more like the Japanese.  This is just little stuff with Ultros, mainly, and perhaps a couple other minor things.  The GBA version kind of ruined Ultros' first scene for me by putting in an unfortunate joke about tentacles that is completely out of place, so initially I just went with the SNES version for that scene, but I'm going to get this back to saying what it's supposed to say.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: svenge on June 26, 2019, 03:14:18 am
I tested it and confirmed that this bug is present in Woolsey Uncensored, but not in the unhacked game.  If a fix is found, it will make its way into this version as well.

It looks like a fix was found (http://www.romhacking.net/forum/index.php?topic=16476.msg377708#msg377708) for the Magitek menu bug.

EDIT:  I noticed a text formatting bug during the cutscene where Terra, Locke, and Edgar are escaping from Kefka while Figaro Castle is submerging.  Specifically, the line when Locke and Edgar are freaking out when Terra first uses magic is missing a new-line space.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: hairy_hen on June 26, 2019, 08:50:21 pm
I'm glad the Magitek menu bug was able to be corrected so quickly.

That weird-looking formatting in the scene with Locke and Edgar is in the original release of the game, too, although the spacing was a bit different since the font here has been horizontally condensed somewhat.  I actually went through all of the battle text and reformatted most of the lines so that they use the available space more efficiently, which also looks quite a bit nicer.  For some reason I had neglected to fix that one, but it is corrected now.

FF6's battle text is strange because unlike the main story dialog, it lacks a wrapping function, so the only way to prevent it from going off the edge of the screen is to manually enter line breaks in every place they're needed.  This can be problematic in lines that contain characters' names, which can be of variable length, so you have to be a bit overly cautious in deciding where to move to the next line.  And FF3usME's preview window isn't quite accurate: it tends to let you think you have a bit more space than is actually there, so I've had to go back and reformat the text (sometimes rewording to condense the length) several times.  I'm pretty certain I've accounted for the formatting of every line now; still, if any more oddities do get spotted, I'll go back and fix them as well.

I'll be submitting version 1.0 to the database as soon as these last tiny fixes are incorporated!
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (script rewrite based on Legends of Localization translation)
Post by: Dzumeister on June 26, 2019, 10:25:00 pm
And... it's done!  http://www.mediafire.com/file/q4kq42z4b4ncsz7/FF6_hh_script_v0.99.zip/file (http://www.mediafire.com/file/q4kq42z4b4ncsz7/FF6_hh_script_v0.99.zip/file)

I have not yet submitted the project to the database, because I want to write up some more accompanying documentation.  It is also still in need of a title; I have one in mind, but want to make sure before going ahead with it.

I'm always reticent about anyone seeing my work until it is finalized, but this has been proofread and edited so much that any further changes would probably just end up making it less good.  That said, if there are any mistakes present, let me know so I can fix them.

It's been a lot of time and work to get this done, but I think it was well worth it.  I hope you guys will enjoy playing this version as much as I've enjoyed making it.  And once again, thanks to everyone whose awesome work and skill made this possible!

I'm pretty excited about trying this out! Love the work by Rodimus Primal, but some of the choices for leaving some of the grammar errors Ted Woolsey had left me wanting something a bit more akin to the GBA translation, which is still my favorite. I actually haven't found a patch that imports the script like you were talking about.

Is there a full script of yours that you've documented available?
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: Donkeyjack on June 27, 2019, 03:58:33 am
Can you do one for FFIV and FFV?
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: Heaven Piercing Man on June 27, 2019, 10:51:34 am
It's not necessary to do that.

FF4 has Namingway edition which is in the same vein as this one, maybe not strictly based on Tomato's analysis but still accurate.

FF5 has a GBA script port which is perfectly acceptable and pretty much on the same level, and there's no detailed analysis we can use if we want a better translation, Tomato hasn't done it and Kwhazit hasn't finished it.

And the NES trilogy has FF1 Restored and Chaos Rush's FF2/FF3 hacks.

Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: GhaleonUnlimited on June 27, 2019, 03:16:00 pm
Nice work!

I'll check your version out next time I fire up FFVI. I also haven't found any script version so far that I really love, including the original, so I think your project idea definitely had merit.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: Donkeyjack on June 28, 2019, 08:53:28 pm
For some reason the patch doesn't work for applying on the Japanese version.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: svenge on June 29, 2019, 12:06:18 am
For some reason the patch doesn't work for applying on the Japanese version.

The included readme.txt clearly states: "To play this version, apply the patch to a clean, un-headered rom of Final Fantasy III (USA) v1.0".
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: hairy_hen on June 29, 2019, 06:23:20 pm
Version 1.0 has been submitted to the database!  It incorporates additional script improvements as well as the Magitek menu bug fix.  I'm very excited to be officially releasing it at last.

In addition to an extended readme file, the download will also include notes on the grammar of Early Modern English, in order to ensure comprehension of Cyan's speech.  He has been written to be easily understandable, but this will provide additional information for those who are curious, as well as helping to avoid confusion for those less familiar with the nuances of this writing style.

I haven't had much time to make progress with the annotated script, so the comments still only extend about halfway through, but I'm going to make it available for reading anyway.  Being able to read the dialog line by line with relevant comments will help make the meaning of the story clear.  It does not go into many details about Japanese grammar, since I hardly know anything about it myself, but instead focuses on the story and character issues that were obscured in previous translations.  Further annotations will be made as time allows.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: Heaven Piercing Man on June 29, 2019, 09:14:23 pm
You mind if I do some commentary on your choices? I'm definitely NOT a Woolsey purist so I'm open minded
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: BlazeHeatnix on June 30, 2019, 03:54:59 pm
I should point out that this probably belongs in the "Personal Projects" forum.

Like I did for Rodimus, I want to point out a couple things I noticed with a quick skim over. However, I'm only concerned by two lines so far:

Quote
Sabin: Well, we've made it this far... So, how do we get to Narshe from here?
Cyan: Narshe, sayest thou?  The southern forest, I deem, shall be our only road thither.
Something the original Japanese version does is that Cyan says "Through the forest to the south, but..." implying that he knows said forest is the Phantom Forest, and is haunted. It's a minor thing, but it immediately hints that the forest is especially dangerous.

Quote
Oh, uh, sorry...   Even a very rich man can be... startled.
Mato suggested changing the term to "Gillionaire", which would have several benefits. It's specifically related to currency, it's less generic than the Japanese original, and it acts as a retroactive reference to later FF abilities called "Gillionaire".

Other than that, I'm impressed. This is looking to be the best version of FFVI's script. If I could make a suggestion, it would be to comb over this script and really think about your philosophy. For example, you question the notion that gyms or nickels exist in this world, yet have no issue with the notion that submarines exist, as implied by Kefka. You also remove extra layers of meaning that both Woolsey and Slattery add to the script in some areas (such as Sabin being "one of Vargas's bears"), which I think is a little strange considering Kefka already has extra layers to his character outside Japan. Just try and decide whether accuracy or flavor is your priority.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: svenge on June 30, 2019, 10:17:32 pm
I see that the Version 1.0 patch is no longer in the Submission Queue (http://www.romhacking.net/submissions/QueueStatus/) but seems to not found in the main file listing for FF6 (http://www.romhacking.net/games/302/), nor the list of new translations (http://www.romhacking.net/?page=translations&languageid=12&dir=1&order=Date) or new hacks (http://www.romhacking.net/?page=hacks&languageid=12&dir=1&order=Date).

Am I missing something obvious, or did it get rejected/pulled?
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: Dzumeister on July 01, 2019, 01:39:50 am
Version 1.0 has been submitted to the database!  It incorporates additional script improvements as well as the Magitek menu bug fix.  I'm very excited to be officially releasing it at last.

In addition to an extended readme file, the download will also include notes on the grammar of Early Modern English, in order to ensure comprehension of Cyan's speech.  He has been written to be easily understandable, but this will provide additional information for those who are curious, as well as helping to avoid confusion for those less familiar with the nuances of this writing style.

I haven't had much time to make progress with the annotated script, so the comments still only extend about halfway through, but I'm going to make it available for reading anyway.  Being able to read the dialog line by line with relevant comments will help make the meaning of the story clear.  It does not go into many details about Japanese grammar, since I hardly know anything about it myself, but instead focuses on the story and character issues that were obscured in previous translations.  Further annotations will be made as time allows.

Link to annotated script: https://pastebin.com/yCCLwi8Z (https://pastebin.com/yCCLwi8Z)

Oooh, thank you! I'm going to be going over it and then try a patched game to see if everything works out correctly. Thanks again for all your hard work!
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: hairy_hen on July 01, 2019, 12:42:39 pm
Unfortunately the submission was rejected for not fitting neatly into the established categories.  I made the patch to work from the unmodified game, but apparently addendum patches are only supposed to derive from the source hack.  This is rather frustrating, because I did it this way in order to make things simpler for the end user, but it was enough for it to be thrown out.

Perhaps it's just as well, because I need to think of a new title anyway.  Something straightforward like "Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated" might work.  But then, addendums aren't supposed to be used for translations either, apparently, so that might get thrown out as well.  I could separate this from Woolsey Uncensored Edition and just make it completely independent; but that seems like a waste, because I don't really want to have to lose or try to recreate all the great work from that version, just for the sake of fitting into these rigid categories.  Hmm...

At any rate, I'm glad the script seems to be meeting with approval.  The primary goal has always been to correct mistranslations and restore missing content, so I focused more on that than on how it compares other versions.  The specific wording was never as important to me as making sure the underlying information is conveyed correctly.  I aimed to be internally logical and consistent as much as I could, although I'm not sure if I have a completely articulated philosophy for when to keep or eliminate certain elements from the SNES script, beyond seeing whether they change the meaning of what is happening in the story.  Each subsequent editing pass has moved it closer to the accuracy route, though I doubt it will go all the way there since even the original Japanese script isn't perfect, and some elements of it are just lost in translation and need to be changed somewhat in order to convey similar ideas.  I'm open to making further edits if I've overlooked anything, so feedback is certainly welcome.

I'll be resubmitting once I have the title and patching situation straightened out.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: svenge on July 01, 2019, 01:14:38 pm
Could you post a link to it on an external server like you did for version 0.99 in the interim?
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: BlazeHeatnix on July 01, 2019, 03:26:23 pm
I want to comment on your approach for Cyan. I commend you for how much research you've put into olde english speak for Cyan. You put a lot of time, thought and care into crafting the accuracy of how people would talk in that dialect.

...The problem, though, is that it's difficult to read. While Cyan's "olde english" speak might be fake or inaccurate in official translations, that's kinda the point. It's meant to be cartoony and evoke a chuckle. If you look at Frog in Chrono Trigger, it's the same sort of thing. I'm almost positive the intent was the same in Japanese as well. You've altered Cyan's script in a way that's honestly pretty humorless and makes the character much more annoying. I understand it's your hack, and your style, but with lines like this:

Quote
"Recall that thou badest me keep safe thy pouch."
What does that even mean?!

Regarding line accuracy, you've also failed to consider how natural some of this speech is. Take the infamous "dancer" scene:

Quote
Dancer: Oh, don't be a stick in the mud. Let's just have some fun! Here, have a look at my cleavage.
Can you honestly see a hooker, in real life, saying "have a look at my cleavage"? That directly, without even any slang? The "humpty-dumpty" scene might be goofy, but it's still a much more believable thing for her to say.

The more I read over this script, the more I start to prefer the original Woolsey Uncensored hack. Maybe it's time for me to make my own alterations. But damn, how many FFVI translation projects have there been? There's Woolsey's, Slattery's, RPGONE's, Rodimus's, Dr. Meat's, and now finally this one.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: Dzumeister on July 01, 2019, 04:38:42 pm
I want to comment on your approach for Cyan. I commend you for how much research you've put into olde english speak for Cyan. You put a lot of time, thought and care into crafting the accuracy of how people would talk in that dialect.

...The problem, though, is that it's difficult to read. While Cyan's "olde english" speak might be fake or inaccurate in official translations, that's kinda the point. It's meant to be cartoony and evoke a chuckle. If you look at Frog in Chrono Trigger, it's the same sort of thing. I'm almost positive the intent was the same in Japanese as well. You've altered Cyan's script in a way that's honestly pretty humorless and makes the character much more annoying. I understand it's your hack, and your style, but with lines like this:
What does that even mean?!
When they relocalized Chrono Trigger for the DS, they gave Frog more elevated speech, but they didn't use olde English. Maybe a similar approach could be made for Cyan so that readers can still understand the kind of character he is.

Quote
Regarding line accuracy, you've also failed to consider how natural some of this speech is. Take the infamous "dancer" scene:
Can you honestly see a hooker, in real life, saying "have a look at my cleavage"? That directly, without even any slang? The "humpty-dumpty" scene might be goofy, but it's still a much more believable thing for her to say.

The more I read over this script, the more I start to prefer the original Woolsey Uncensored hack. Maybe it's time for me to make my own alterations. But damn, how many FFVI translation projects have there been? There's Woolsey's, Slattery's, RPGONE's, Rodimus's, Dr. Meat's, and now finally this one.
Obviously the correct thing to do now is to change her line to "HAVE A LOOK AT MY TIDDIES"
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: BlazeHeatnix on July 01, 2019, 05:54:49 pm
When they relocalized Chrono Trigger for the DS, they gave Frog more elevated speech, but they didn't use olde English. Maybe a similar approach could be made for Cyan so that readers can still understand the kind of character he is.
Well, there you have the opposite problem. Frog's speech patterns were removed, but it made him less memorable of a character and his lines were now a bit boring, likely why Woolsey changed him in the first place. I think for the most part, Woolsey and especially Slattery strike a balance between Cyan's olde english mannerisms, and being easy to understand and read. They don't go beyond the kind of "old English" parody character you see in cartoons.
https://youtu.be/v03aHB7Vano

Obviously the correct thing to do now is to change her line to "HAVE A LOOK AT MY TIDDIES"
You laugh, but as out-of-place as that would be, it'd still be more believable (and funny) than the current version.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: vivify93 on July 01, 2019, 06:27:30 pm
That is pretty wooden, yeah. I think I'd personally alter the last line to something cheeky like, "Come on, take a look at my assets..."
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: Heaven Piercing Man on July 01, 2019, 06:38:23 pm
That is pretty wooden, yeah. I think I'd personally alter the last line to something cheeky like, "Come on, take a look at my assets..."

Hey, that's cool. It can be understood as both "boobies" and "ASSets"
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: hairy_hen on July 01, 2019, 07:32:18 pm
It means he told him to hold on to his wallet.

To bid = to command or to direct.  Bade = past tense of bid.  Suffix "-est" is applied to second-person singular verb conjugations.

Hence, "thou badest".

Here's the thing: until I did this project, it had been been a long time since I'd read or given thought to anything written in such old-fashioned language, but that style of expression was kind of seared into my brain as a kid due to being required to read the King James every week.  I played Chrono Trigger for the first time a few months ago, and I found that I liked the idea of Frog's speech style, but my heart sank almost immediately when his very first line of dialog came out mangled due to simple grammatical errors.  Fixing that was actually going to be my first foray into this kind of thing, but then I came across Mato's FF6 comparison and got sidetracked by doing this instead.

All I really wanted to do with these games was just to play them, not hack them.  But as the comparison showed there were so many translation problems I hadn't known about, I found that I had the interest and motivation to do something about them, and a level of impartiality about the script due to having no longstanding attachment to any pre-existing version.  Recall that in the first post I mentioned that up until a few weeks ago, I had no plans to release this publicly at all: it was begun as something solely for my own benefit.  I only came around to the idea of releasing it when I saw various people online wishing there were a version with the general sort of qualities of what I had done.

Obviously the style I used for Cyan is a bit removed from normal present day speech.  Hence why I wrote a document explaining the nuances of the grammar, in the event of just this sort of confusion.  I tried to keep it as clear and understandable as I could, but I'm not the sort of person to do something halfway, and I don't believe in dumbing things down and underestimating the audience.  The actual amount of archaic vocabulary in this script is extremely low.  The only things that are "old" are the verb conjugations, personal pronouns, a couple of words or expressions that had slightly different definitions back then, and the tendency to put the syntax of a sentence in a slightly different order.  Everything else is the same.  If I'd really wanted to go full-on obscure, I would have spelled the words the way they spelled them back then, too, but then almost nobody in the world (including me) would have any idea what they were saying.

Naturally, of course, anyone is welcome to play any version they want, and it's good there are options.  My hope is that others will enjoy playing this, but I never had any illusions about being able to satisfy everyone.


For the breast thing, I felt it important to avoid being unnecessarily crude.  'Assets' might work, but we'll see.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: Dzumeister on July 01, 2019, 07:41:52 pm
Well, there you have the opposite problem. Frog's speech patterns were removed, but it made him less memorable of a character and his lines were now a bit boring, likely why Woolsey changed him in the first place.

Personally, I think the memorable thing about Frog is that he's a frog. His character of being a noble knight is a good bonus, so the olde English was never a selling point for me.

Same with Cyan: his whole arc of going after Kefka for the fall of Doma and the Phantom Train are easily memorable for me, as well as in World of Ruin when he's writing to Lola. There are character moments of Cyan that make him beloved, but they aren't necessarily tied to how he talks.

That is pretty wooden, yeah. I think I'd personally alter the last line to something cheeky like, "Come on, take a look at my assets..."

I think this is a great idea, since it's not overtly sexy to the point of feeling out of place with the rest of the game tonally, but still in good humor.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: vivify93 on July 02, 2019, 12:30:54 am
But damn, how many FFVI translation projects have there been? There's Woolsey's, Slattery's, RPGONE's, Rodimus's, Dr. Meat's, and now finally this one.
There's also Stand Guard and there was another project on Slick Productions by Darkmage. But yeah, these all in conjunction are one of the major reasons I decided that I didn't want to make a Project III. FFVI has more than enough love. (Consequently, none of these hacks have met my personal desires for an FFVI script hack--which would be to leave menu strings within the predefined constraints, fix nearly all bugs, and add some enhancements. It's why I stuck with the GBA version...)
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: BlazeHeatnix on July 03, 2019, 01:49:12 am
I have to say, I like how the Three Dream Brothers are now Phobetor, Morpheus and Phantasos. That's a surprisingly creative way to tackle them.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: TheGershon on July 03, 2019, 07:42:54 pm
Do you mind uploading 1.0 here while you figure out the submission situation? I'm dying to play this
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: hairy_hen on July 05, 2019, 03:52:13 pm
I've made a new patch, which I'm calling v0.99b.  It can be found here: https://www.mediafire.com/file/thpj3wvcykem8ba/FF6_hh_script_v0.99b.zip/file (https://www.mediafire.com/file/thpj3wvcykem8ba/FF6_hh_script_v0.99b.zip/file)

This incorporates all the script improvements I made earlier, as well as changing 'cleavage' to 'assets'.  That seemed to be a popular choice.

The reason it isn't called v1.0 is because I've been giving more consideration to the idea of making this a separate project and not an addendum.  Apparently I hadn't read the submission guidelines closely enough before, or I'd have known it couldn't be based directly on the unmodified game; but the more I thought about it, the less I liked the extra complication that involves.

Another reason why that might be better is that I'd wanted to incorporate additional bug fixes beyond those found in Woolsey Uncensored, most notably the Vanish/Doom fix; but every time I tried to do this, it ended up creating visual glitches in the text box.  The errors were small, but noticeable and repeatable, so clearly there is some sort of conflict happening.  But going back to the original game and starting over is less likely to result in errors than working from a file that has already been extensively modified.

Now that I've figured out what needs to be done to achieve this, it shouldn't take long to get it up and running.  In the meantime, the version I posted is fully playable and should satisfy everyone who wants to get going with this script right away.


I'm glad to hear the names for the Dream Brothers meet with approval.  In the Japanese version their names are the French, Italian, and Spanish words for 'dream', but I would imagine those probably sound more exotic to Japanese people than they do in the west.  So my first thought was to simply change them to 'dream' in some other languages, but I couldn't find many that I actually liked the sound of.  The only one that really did sound good was "oneiro", and once I remembered that Oneiros was a Greek god of dreams, it didn't take too long to find the names of Morpheus, Phobetor, and Phantasos in association with that.

It works on several levels: they are three brothers; they have power over human dreams; and their names are mythological/literary in origin, which the Final Fantasy series has repeatedly drawn from in naming its characters.  It even works on a visual level: Phobetor is the bringer of nightmares, so I made him the scariest-looking one (Curly in the original release); Morpheus is the most human, so he's the most normal of the three (Larry); and Phantasos is the most surreal, so he's the one whose design is a bit out there (Moe).

I remember finding it funny that they were Three Dream Stooges the first time I played it, but obviously that's not what they were originally.  It's another case where I wasn't sure I wanted to change it at first, but came around to it once I'd figured out how to do it in an interesting way.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: Dzumeister on July 05, 2019, 04:52:39 pm
the three dreamateers
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: Heaven Piercing Man on July 05, 2019, 07:24:03 pm
I've always been split on the Dream Stooges. I know calling them Rêve, Sueño and Sogno feels kinda "eh" for us (and the punctuation marks make them harder to hack them in properly), and making them a reference to the 3 Stooges keeps it interesting, but it's actually turning a creepy scene into a comedy one as usual, and objectively speaking, it's a bit too J2Eish.

That said, your choice is great.

Now, if I were to make a Spanish version, would I go for your names or call 'em Rêve, Dream and Sogno? Hahaha!
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: Masaru on July 05, 2019, 08:53:45 pm
i would like to someone import the translation to the RPGOne english translation and make the definitive edition of the game
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: BlazeHeatnix on July 05, 2019, 09:22:15 pm
I've always been split on the Dream Stooges. I know calling them Rêve, Sueño and Sogno feels kinda "eh" for us (and the punctuation marks make them harder to hack them in properly), and making them a reference to the 3 Stooges keeps it interesting, but it's actually turning a creepy scene into a comedy one as usual

I don't think the scene was meant to be especially creepy...I mean seriously, look at them.
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/finalfantasy/images/6/6f/FFVI_IOS_Dream_Stooges.png)
They're obviously not meant to be taken seriously, especially since they're one of the easiest boss encounters in the game.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: PowerPanda on July 05, 2019, 09:56:51 pm
There's also Stand Guard and there was another project on Slick Productions by Darkmage. But yeah, these all in conjunction are one of the major reasons I decided that I didn't want to make a Project III. FFVI has more than enough love. (Consequently, none of these hacks have met my personal desires for an FFVI script hack--which would be to leave menu strings within the predefined constraints, fix nearly all bugs, and add some enhancements. It's why I stuck with the GBA version...)

What you're looking for is C.V.Reynold's Bug-Fix Compilation and Script Fix. (https://www.ff6hacking.com/forums/thread-3764.html)
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: svenge on July 05, 2019, 11:21:07 pm
I've made a new patch, which I'm calling v0.99b.  It can be found here: https://www.mediafire.com/file/thpj3wvcykem8ba/FF6_hh_script_v0.99b.zip/file (https://www.mediafire.com/file/thpj3wvcykem8ba/FF6_hh_script_v0.99b.zip/file)

This incorporates all the script improvements I made earlier, as well as changing 'cleavage' to 'assets'.  That seemed to be a popular choice.

Thanks for uploading 0.99b for us!  This should certainly be sufficient to tide us over until whenever you feel that 1.0 is ready. 

EDIT:  One minor thing I noticed is the lack of a space between the amount of gil earned and the word "Gil" in the end-of-battle status message.  It should read [AMOUNT] Gil, and not [AMOUNT]Gil.  I know it's a minor thing, but it's off-putting to see it formatted like that.

(https://i.imgur.com/7FSkCV0.png)

EDIT 2:  I created a patch for TWUE 2.04 that fixed the "Gil spacing" issue, and it also successfully fixes the issue on your latest release (0.99b) as well. 
Google Drive link (https://drive.google.com/open?id=17O3oPEpP7ludcu_O9wIJLVv933daKwJf)

(https://i.imgur.com/UCn0vat.png)
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: hairy_hen on July 07, 2019, 04:07:07 pm
Excellent!  It's a small thing, but that does look a lot better.

I've been making good progress on turning this into an independent version of the game.  This is mainly a matter of narrowing down which hacks and patches to include and putting it all together.  I've already sorted out the enemy/item names, item descriptions, and location names, and am currently wading through the names of enemy attacks.

Trying to avoid awkward abbreviations wherever possible, though sometimes this is unavoidable due to the character limits.  I'd rather see something that looks like a full word than a bunch of jumbled up consonants if that can feasibly be done, so sometimes it may be preferable to drop a syllable or two than try to cram everything in with no vowels.  Mostly using the GBA names since they're consistent across the series, but occasionally I'll defer to Woolsey's version if it does a better job of fitting into the available space while still sounding good.  He definitely had a knack for coming up with interesting names, often with amusing puns in them.

I'd wanted to include both the Restored Ability Names patch and the Condensed Spell List, but they seem to be incompatible with each other.  Every time I made a test file with both of those, it soon became unstable and crashed.  Once I removed Condensed Spell List, everything starting working perfectly again.  Each of them makes adjustments to the menu code, and apparently in ways that conflict rather badly.  Everything else seems to work together perfectly as far as I can tell, so I don't anticipate any more issues of that kind.  Restored Ability Names is great since it takes care of all the spells and other techniques with minimal need for abbreviation; though because the new names go into the extended rom area, they can no longer be adjusted in FF3usME and require hex editing to make any further changes.  I still need to learn more about it before doing anything with that.

The only one I don't quite like is 'Bum Rush', which for some reason was not updated in the naming patch.  In Japanese this is literally something like 'Phantom Battle Dance', so I'd want it to say something more along those lines if possible.  Phantom Rush from the GBA isn't bad, or maybe Ghost Rush so that it would also fit into the menu screen, or... well, something.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: G061 on July 08, 2019, 12:15:58 am
First, I do wanna commend you for your efforts work. I've been looking to enjoy a more accurate translation of FF6 and the SNES original just doesn't cut it for me but the downgrades to graphics and audio of the GBA version are too much for me to ignore too.

All I want is the SNES version, ideally something compatible with Rodimus' TWUE and the GBA script straight up. It's what Square-Enix is going by these days and like Chrono Trigger DS/PC it really should be all we need going forward.
 
Quote
So why not just port the GBA script into the SNES version?  Another project has already done this
Have they actually? The only one I can think of is Dr. Meat's hack and iirc even it is a portmanteau of snes/gba and their own take which isn't really the GBA Script at that point. I think there was someone on these boards who was working on a straight GBA Script port but they haven't given an update in some time now.

It's a bit frustrating and overwhelming to have 3 or so different retranslations about now and I really dunno which is the one I want to dive in on. Sorry if I'm sounding entitled or ignorant but at this point I still feel like TWUE will be the way to go til a real GBA Script port happens some day.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: Dzumeister on July 08, 2019, 12:44:23 am
imagine a GBA script port with the GBA version's font  :P
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: vivify93 on July 08, 2019, 01:16:11 am
What you're looking for is C.V.Reynold's Bug-Fix Compilation and Script Fix. (https://www.ff6hacking.com/forums/thread-3764.html)
I'm aware of this! :) It's just that he doesn't fix any of the major translation errors, or fix Cyan's parlance, or alter any item names/descriptions meaningfully...
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: hairy_hen on July 08, 2019, 03:09:44 am
Not to worry, I certainly understand why it would be frustrating or confusing to have multiple versions of the same game out there.

Even though there's a lot of inertia to overcome, I do hope that anyone who plays this will find it worthwhile.  I wouldn't have spent so much time working on it if I wasn't confident in its quality; but in the end, whether someone likes it or not is probably just going to come down to a matter of what kind of writing they prefer.  I would encourage anyone who is on the fence about trying a new version to give it a shot, because every previous translation had problems of one kind or another, and I sought to correct them all.  Ideally there would have just been one perfect translation of this game and no one would have to think about any of this stuff, but it didn't quite turn out that way.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: svenge on July 08, 2019, 01:30:50 pm
So far with 0.99b I've gotten as far as getting to the Returners' base for the first time and am rather enjoying the translation.

July 11, 2019, 08:43:50 am - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)

I noticed a couple typos, in that while the NPC dialog properly refers to the "Lethe River", when you go to that area it's referred to as the "Lete River" when you actually go there.  It's location name #40 if you look at it in FF3usME.  Also, while the dialog script refers to Darill as "Daryl" (i.e. the original SNES translation's name), the location name for her tomb (#58) refers to her as Daryll.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: BlazeHeatnix on July 11, 2019, 09:17:28 pm
That was a flaw with WU, and it's been fixed now.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: hairy_hen on July 11, 2019, 10:19:37 pm
Location names have all been taken care of, so there won't be any more inconsistencies with the dialog.  For the past few days I've been familiarizing myself with hex editing so that I could make some text adjustments outside of what the editing program allows for.  Last time I did anything like that was messing around with Gameshark codes on the Nintendo 64, so it's been a while.

I'm nearly ready to submit this project to the database again.  Now there are only a few little details left to sort out and it'll be completely ready.  I'm thinking of putting it into the Translation category since the primary purpose for its existence is the script, rather than hacking per se.  I am including the various bug fixes and certain additional features (B-button dash and so on), but I'm wondering whether I should also do a version without them, in case there's anyone who would rather play this closer to the original experience with all its programming quirks intact.

In any case, I'm certainly looking forward to actually playing this myself.  When you work on something this long, it can be a bit hard to get back to thinking of it as something to experience and enjoy for what it is rather than staying in the mindset of making tweaks and adjustments, but I'm almost at that point now.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: CoolCatBomberMan on July 11, 2019, 11:43:25 pm
After briefly glimpsing at your script, and cross-referencing with Mato's stream, I gotta say.........I can't wait! You showed a type of attention to detail no fan translation has exhibited before! I'd dare say that in terms of story, your patch just might be the definitive means of playing the SNES version! Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: Chronosplit on July 12, 2019, 04:02:38 pm
I just ran into this, I'll probably give it a look soon after I'm done with my own hacking.  Oh, since the smaller parts of Chrono Trigger got brought up...

Honestly I really do think the Chrono Trigger script needs another official redo.  There are a lot of things that are far worse woolseyisms in the DS script, bordering on complete character rewriting when it comes to Magus.  There's also a small trend of stating one line twice but with different wording.  The SNES script is actually closer in many ways (don't get me wrong, there are big missteps and I don't blame anyone for liking one or the other), but at the same time the DS script does some things better like Magus's name in 600AD.  And to be completely honest, nothing we have is 100% reliable (but it is enough that I can definitely point out some major issues with both scripts, and fix them on a minor level).

Here's hoping 'Mato gives CT a look.  Sorry about the off-topic ranting, I didn't really mean to derail.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: fedorajoe on July 14, 2019, 09:46:50 am
All I want is the SNES version, ideally something compatible with Rodimus' TWUE and the GBA script straight up. It's what Square-Enix is going by these days and like Chrono Trigger DS/PC it really should be all we need going forward.

I'm not here to comment on anyone's preferences, as we are all entitled to our own. I just want to point out that trying to match the most recent translation is a never-ending game.

So long as these titles are produced in non-English settings, there will be variation in the naming conventions used during translation for the English market. It's not nearly as random and ever-changing as it used to be, because companies are making an effort now to keep some consistency.

But if there's a change in leadership at one of these companies, or a long stretch of time between translated titles during which staffing or attitudes or preferences may change, or any number of things, the ground will shift again. Maybe not for all translated elements in a game or series, but at least one or two or three are going to creep in there. And so you're back to playing that catch-up game you can never win.

Personally, this is why some of us old farts, especially ones who dabble with game modification but are not part of the scene (like me), don't bother.

If I ever do another hack of an NES Dragon Quest game (which I'd like to), I will use the original Enix of America naming conventions. Partly it's my nostalgia talking, but it's also the fact that those naming conventions can never, ever change. That book is shut. So the names will always be the same, even after the spells and monsters go through their next 70 rounds of renaming in newer titles.

I like reading these boards because of the enthusiasm for the projects. But like any community, it can be a little echo-chambery. A lot of people who play the hacks available through this site don't care about these questions at all, or prefer the old to the new, etc. You can't please them all. So I hope everyone just makes the project that they would want to play for themselves.

Again, this is not a rebuttal. Just couldn't resist dropping a completely unsolicited Actually on you this morning.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: vivify93 on July 14, 2019, 11:17:22 am
Normally I'd agree, but in the case of FF and DQ, Square Enix have Series Bibles that the localization team can cross-reference. Some names have updated since their creation, true, but it's usually pretty much far and few in between. Ogrenix is one of the inconsistencies in there that I can think of.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: hairy_hen on July 15, 2019, 04:27:25 pm
After briefly glimpsing at your script, and cross-referencing with Mato's stream, I gotta say.........I can't wait! You showed a type of attention to detail no fan translation has exhibited before! I'd dare say that in terms of story, your patch just might be the definitive means of playing the SNES version! Keep up the good work!

Thank you, that's very nice of you to say.  It's doubtful this version will satisfy everyone, but I certainly hope that it can provide an enjoyable experience for anyone who tries it.  Initially I only intended to make a few corrections to the dialog, but when it became clear that wasn't enough, I had to conclude this was only worth doing if I addressed as many of the story details as I could.  Ultimately it ended up better because of it.

The new version has been submitted, but it's been stuck in limbo for the past couple days because there are so many other projects in the queue as well.  Who knows how long it'll be before it gets looked at...
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: Vanya on July 16, 2019, 03:40:25 am
I dare say that no version of any re-translation could satisfy everyone.
Ultimately, all you need worry about is just making it the way you want to with as much consideration for the end users as you feel is appropriate.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: Special on July 16, 2019, 11:01:56 am
The new version has been submitted, but it's been stuck in limbo for the past couple days because there are so many other projects in the queue as well.  Who knows how long it'll be before it gets looked at...

Maybe just upload it to mediafire or mega or similar in the meantime, queues on this site can be ridiculous sometimes, some users get a "free" pass while others have to wait in limbo for weeks.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: hairy_hen on July 18, 2019, 04:45:06 pm
Since I have no idea when (or even if) my project will make it through the queue, I'll post version 1.0 here so interested people can start playing it right away if they wish.

Version 1.0 download: https://www.mediafire.com/file/56bn61wjqbm050w/FF6_Retranslated_v1.0.zip/file (https://www.mediafire.com/file/56bn61wjqbm050w/FF6_Retranslated_v1.0.zip/file)

The file is freshly assembled and does not derive from Woolsey Uncensored any longer; but some of its design sensibilities, including the spacing of the main font, are still similar.  There aren't any squish tiles to be found here aside from svenge's Gil fix, so the labeling of items and enemies occasionally differs, but this should all feel familiar to anyone who tried the previous incarnations.  Save files should be compatible between versions as far as I know.

Truth be told, I'm kind of burned out, so I think I need to take a break and clear my head from this stuff.  But I really appreciate the support and encouragement I've received, and I hope that people will enjoy playing this!
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - now available
Post by: tc on July 18, 2019, 06:12:16 pm
I dare say that no version of any re-translation could satisfy everyone.
Ultimately, all you need worry about is just making it the way you want to with as much consideration for the end users as you feel is appropriate.

If you're going to translate from scratch, translate from scratch. Give us a perspective not clouded by past inaccuracies or silly yet famous lines that have persisted.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - v1.0 available
Post by: Dzumeister on July 18, 2019, 06:19:32 pm
Congrats on release, hairy_hen!

I noticed that you've left esper capitalized. There was a debate over at the TWUE thread about whether or not it should be, since human and other species generally aren't capitalized. Will you be leaving it as it is? They were also debating on whether or not gil should be capitalized as well, since it is a currency, dollars or quarters don't need to be capitalized.

I'll let you know if I find any typos/errors/bugs!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - v1.0 available
Post by: svenge on July 19, 2019, 02:39:47 pm
I went through the entire script and have some suggestions for improved formatting.  As to not clog up the thread, I've uploaded them into a Pastebin link (https://pastebin.com/BP9YZ4Py).
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - v1.0 available
Post by: Dzumeister on July 19, 2019, 04:03:00 pm
I went through the entire script and have some suggestions for improved formatting.  As to not clog up the thread, I've uploaded them into a Pastebin link (https://pastebin.com/BP9YZ4Py).

super thorough!
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - v1.0 available
Post by: Rodimus Primal on July 20, 2019, 02:29:53 pm
I went through the entire script and have some suggestions for improved formatting.  As to not clog up the thread, I've uploaded them into a Pastebin link (https://pastebin.com/BP9YZ4Py).

Going through this to help TWUE as well. Thanks.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - v1.0 available
Post by: Dzumeister on July 23, 2019, 10:03:15 pm
Isn't it weird that the translation is taking so long to be submitted? There's been quite a few releases that have breezed through the queue.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - v1.0 available
Post by: Special on July 24, 2019, 10:40:06 am
Yeah it's pretty obvious it's getting skipped over time and time again if you watch the queues, does hairy_hen not get any feedback as to why? Sounds like he has no clue what's going on, thankfully mediafire and other 3rd party hosts exist.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - v1.0 available
Post by: KingMike on July 24, 2019, 12:07:37 pm
If the poster wants to they can use the Contact Staff link to ask for details but it's not unusual for updates to take time to post.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - v1.0 available
Post by: Dzumeister on July 24, 2019, 05:41:05 pm
Yeah it's pretty obvious it's getting skipped over time and time again if you watch the queues, does hairy_hen not get any feedback as to why? Sounds like he has no clue what's going on, thankfully mediafire and other 3rd party hosts exist.

It looks like Nightcrawler just submitted a Final Fantasy 6 Legends of Localization translation to the database. What's that about?

(https://i.imgur.com/XbXV1On.png)

whaaaaat is going on  :o
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - v1.0 available
Post by: hairy_hen on July 24, 2019, 06:03:59 pm
Since my project doesn't quite fit neatly into the established categories, I'm told there was some concern about whether it ought to be submitted into Translations or Hacks (and also some behind the scenes stuff resulted in it getting delayed as well).  But it's getting sorted out and will likely be appearing in the database soon.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - v1.0 available
Post by: Dzumeister on July 24, 2019, 07:55:19 pm
I went through the entire script and have some suggestions for improved formatting.  As to not clog up the thread, I've uploaded them into a Pastebin link (https://pastebin.com/BP9YZ4Py).

Will svenge's edits make it into a 1.01 patch, or will you be taking a break after RHDN adds 1.0 to the database?
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - v1.0 available
Post by: hairy_hen on July 24, 2019, 09:38:08 pm
I made an update which incorporates many of svenge’s formatting notes, which should hopefully be appearing in the submitted version.  Some things in the list were deliberate writing choices, but everything else was fixed as suggested.  Still don’t know how “Teath Tarot” got in there, since I distinctly remember typing it correctly  :huh:  but it’s fixed now.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - v1.0 available
Post by: Special on July 25, 2019, 10:41:43 am
Grats finally on the "official" official release, some small typo(s) on the project page though... :laugh:
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - v1.0 available
Post by: svenge on July 25, 2019, 11:54:10 am
The current version of your patch on the site (v1.1) has that old formatting problem with the gil (i.e. "Got 96Gil", instead of "Got 96 Gil"), which is problematic.  I checked my old IPS patch (the one with a new "il" squish-tile) to see if it would work with v1.1, and indeed it does.

"Gil patch" link (https://drive.google.com/open?id=17O3oPEpP7ludcu_O9wIJLVv933daKwJf)
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - v1.0 available
Post by: Chicken Knife on July 25, 2019, 01:56:14 pm
@Hairy Hen

Congratz on getting your script published. It's a great feeling! :)

Any updates on a bugfix addendum? I'm a little OCD and have a hard time enjoying a game when I know something as significant as evade is broken. Once you have some of that stuff going, I'd love to give it a play and offer any feedback. I think I've gone through every possible script of FF6 and I'm looking forward to adding yours to the collection. I also partner with a great Japanese translator who helps with my own script writing if you ever need to bounce around any ideas or questions.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - v1.0 available
Post by: hairy_hen on July 25, 2019, 03:26:38 pm
Thanks!  It’s great to see it up there after working on it for a long time.

This version actually contains 185 bug fixes (!) from a master patch that was compiled not too long ago.  Sketch, Evade, Vanish/Doom, and a whole bunch of others I’d never heard of are all included.

I think the Gil thing happened because of what order the patches were applied this time.  I’ll have to go back and check so I can make sure to get it right next time.  I was hoping there wouldn’t be any need to update again for a while, but I guess it’s easy for little things to creep in.

Anyway, I’m glad it’s out there, and I really hope anyone who plays it will find it worthwhile.   :)
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - v1.0 available
Post by: Dzumeister on July 25, 2019, 03:47:55 pm
Thanks!  It’s great to see it up there after working on it for a long time.

This version actually contains 185 bug fixes (!) from a master patch that was compiled not too long ago.  Sketch, Evade, Vanish/Doom, and a whole bunch of others I’d never heard of are all included.

I think the Gil thing happened because of what order the patches were applied this time.  I’ll have to go back and check so I can make sure to get it right next time.  I was hoping there wouldn’t be any need to update again for a while, but I guess it’s easy for little things to creep in.

Anyway, I’m glad it’s out there, and I really hope anyone who plays it will find it worthwhile.   :)

Does that mean when it gets updated with the Gil patch, that'll make it 1.2?  :P
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - v1.0 available
Post by: Chicken Knife on July 25, 2019, 04:24:48 pm
Thanks!  It’s great to see it up there after working on it for a long time.

This version actually contains 185 bug fixes (!) from a master patch that was compiled not too long ago.  Sketch, Evade, Vanish/Doom, and a whole bunch of others I’d never heard of are all included.

I think the Gil thing happened because of what order the patches were applied this time.  I’ll have to go back and check so I can make sure to get it right next time.  I was hoping there wouldn’t be any need to update again for a while, but I guess it’s easy for little things to creep in.

Anyway, I’m glad it’s out there, and I really hope anyone who plays it will find it worthwhile.   :)
Sounds great. That sounds like the most extensive collection of bug fixes yet. And I appreciate you including the vanish/doom bugfix. Some people enjoy having exploits left in but I'm not one of them.

I just took a second look at your hack description and the readme file and they don't make any note of the bugfixes. I would include that because my assumption it was not included was based on reading your notes. Also there is a paragraph about Cyan that appears twice in the description that you probably will want to edit.

If I can manage to tear myself away from my current sequence of continuously replaying Seiken Densetsu 3, I'll give your translation a go. Hopefully the gil thing will be sorted by then also.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - v1.0 available
Post by: Special on July 25, 2019, 05:10:52 pm
And I appreciate you including the vanish/doom bugfix. Some people enjoy having exploits left in but I'm not one of them.

And this affects you how? If you don't want it don't literally cast vanish + doom and exploit it.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - v1.0 available
Post by: svenge on July 25, 2019, 05:37:16 pm
Just looked at the new patch in FF3usME and do like it a lot, even if we have differing opinions on a couple typographical conventions (e.g. marking sounds effects like *cough* or not, and Daryl vs Darill).  That said, I did find a couple things that could possibly be addressed for v1.2 beyond the Gil spacing issue and have put them in a Pastebin page (https://pastebin.com/R20mAHL3) as to keep the thread tidy.

EDIT:  I did notice one last thing:  For Town Dialog entry #367, instead of "Banon and co." I think "Banon's group" or "Banon, Edgar, and Terra" would look better.  Obviously the latter would be formatted as "<A4>, <A0>, and Banon" instead of using those two names themselves.

EDIT 2:  One more:  The word "O" in "O shrouded one" in Town Dialog #1900 should be capitalized as well.
Title: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - v1.1
Post by: hairy_hen on July 25, 2019, 08:47:28 pm
Getting the text formatting to look its best is always a good thing, so I'm open to fixing it up some more.

I actually did use asterisks to denote coughs and other sound effect words when I was writing the script, but for some reason when I saw how it looked in the actual game, I found I didn't quite like it.  I'm not sure why, but I guess it's something about the font that makes it look a bit off to me.  It seems okay without them because I think it is understood that the characters are not actually saying them as words.  For the spelling of Daryl, Mato indicated that her name in Japanese can be rendered into English any number of different ways, so I just picked the one I thought looked best and used it consistently.

I think there was some kind of copy/paste error in the project description when it got moved from Translations and into the Hacks category, so I made a fix for it this morning as soon as I saw it, and also added a mention of bug fixes at the same time.  Hopefully that shows up soon.  It looks like the submission queue is filling up again, so I might have to wait a bit before making any more updates.

@Dzumeister: Thanks for the great review!  I wasn't expecting any this soon, but that definitely made my day.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - v1.1
Post by: Dzumeister on July 26, 2019, 01:47:22 am
Getting the text formatting to look its best is always a good thing, so I'm open to fixing it up some more.

I actually did use asterisks to denote coughs and other sound effect words when I was writing the script, but for some reason when I saw how it looked in the actual game, I found I didn't quite like it.  I'm not sure why, but I guess it's something about the font that makes it look a bit off to me.  It seems okay without them because I think it is understood that the characters are not actually saying them as words.  For the spelling of Daryl, Mato indicated that her name in Japanese can be rendered into English any number of different ways, so I just picked the one I thought looked best and used it consistently.

I think there was some kind of copy/paste error in the project description when it got moved from Translations and into the Hacks category, so I made a fix for it this morning as soon as I saw it, and also added a mention of bug fixes at the same time.  Hopefully that shows up soon.  It looks like the submission queue is filling up again, so I might have to wait a bit before making any more updates.

@Dzumeister: Thanks for the great review!  I wasn't expecting any this soon, but that definitely made my day.

No problem! Thank you for all the work you put into this hack!

As for sound effects, I think they should always be differentiated from the dialogue with parentheses/asterisks/symbols, even if it is generally understood that the characters aren't actually saying those words. It just keeps things consistent.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - v1.0 available
Post by: Chicken Knife on July 26, 2019, 06:51:12 am
And this affects you how? If you don't want it don't literally cast vanish + doom and exploit it.
It effects me by knowing there's a significant bug present in the gameplay. Call it perfectionism or OCD if you will--just as I did above. @Hairy Hen, as you can gather by Special's response, including this will be controversial. In spite of FF6 being easy as pie in general, people like to break the hell out of games.

No problem! Thank you for all the work you put into this hack!

As for sound effects, I think they should always be differentiated from the dialogue with parentheses/asterisks/symbols, even if it is generally understood that the characters aren't actually saying those words. It just keeps things consistent.
It's funny... For my own script writing I've actually been debating for the last few days what the ideal way is to handle these "sounds" or onomatopoeia in English. I've used asterisks for awhile now but after looking carefully at the professional conventions around this, I think I'm going to switch to parenthesis.

**UPDATE

I read over your updated description and it brought another question to mind.

Quote
For the sake of consistency with the Japanese version, spells and items have been renamed to match their modern counterparts
I'm not sure what this means actually.

I'm very curious whether you stayed closer to English conventions with spell / item names or if you went for a stricter equivalency of the Japanese. For instance, Phoenix Tail Feather (or an abbreviated Phoenix Feather) vs the typical English Phoenix Down. Another hotly divisive topic I'm sure.  :laugh:
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - v1.0 available
Post by: Rodimus Primal on July 26, 2019, 11:20:51 am
It effects me by knowing there's a significant bug present in the gameplay. Call it perfectionism or OCD if you will--just as I did above. @Hairy Hen, as you can gather by Special's response, including this will be controversial. In spite of FF6 being easy as pie in general, people like to break the hell out of games.
It's funny... For my own script writing I've actually been debating for the last few days what the ideal way is to handle these "sounds" or onomatopoeia in English. I've used asterisks for awhile now but after looking carefully at the professional conventions around this, I think I'm going to switch to parenthesis.

**UPDATE

I read over your updated description and it brought another question to mind.
I'm not sure what this means actually.

I'm very curious whether you stayed closer to English conventions with spell / item names or if you went for a stricter equivalency of the Japanese. For instance, Phoenix Tail Feather (or an abbreviated Phoenix Feather) vs the typical English Phoenix Down. Another hotly divisive topic I'm sure.  :laugh:

Well considering he used TWUE as a base ROM (which should be noted in the description and Read Me BTW), he probably is using the updated canon names for spells and such. So Firaga, Cura, etc. But if you really want to bring this to a direct LoL translation, you probably should rename all the items and such to be closer to Japanese despite what Square currently calls them in English.

So Terra, Sabin, and Cyan should be Tina, Mash, and Ceyenne respectively.

Phoenix Down should be Phoenix Tail.

Crusader to Jihad

Moogles should be moglies.

Katarin should be Catalina.

And perhaps you might want to remove ALL of the Woolseyims too to a more direct translation, if you haven't done so already in later revisions. Even though Slattery used some of them, Kitase loved them too (he even said they were better than the Japanese, especially with Kefka) they should be closer to the direct Japanese here.

You've probably read my thread recently and everyone has noted which ones everyone here doesn't like including "Son of a Submariner." That should be the straight forward "Argh. Dammit."

Two others I don't know if you changed yet or not is when confronted Kefka at the end. "Self-Help book" is a Woolseyism, as is "Monument to non-existence." Suggestions "All this back talk. You people make me sick." and "I'll destroy everything and make a world of death!"

The soldier that laughs about fire should have his Beavis and Butt-head like speech reverted to "Burn to death!"

But what you do of course, is your own choice.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - v1.0 available
Post by: Chicken Knife on July 26, 2019, 11:56:55 am
Well considering he used TWUE as a base ROM (which should be noted in the description and Read Me BTW), he probably is using the updated canon names for spells and such. So Firaga, Cura, etc. But if you really want to bring this to a direct LoL translation, you probably should rename all the items and such to be closer to Japanese despite what Square currently calls them in English.

So Terra, Sabin, and Cyan should be Tina, Mash, and Ceyenne respectively.

Phoenix Down should be Phoenix Tail.

Crusader to Jihad

Moogles should be moglies.

Katarin should be Catalina.

And perhaps you might want to remove ALL of the Woolseyims too to a more direct translation, if you haven't done so already in later revisions. Even though Slattery used some of them, Kitase loved them too (he even said they were better than the Japanese, especially with Kefka) they should be closer to the direct Japanese here.

You've probably read my thread recently and everyone has noted which ones everyone here doesn't like including "Son of a Submariner." That should be the straight forward "Argh. Dammit."

Two others I don't know if you changed yet or not is when confronted Kefka at the end. "Self-Help book" is a Woolseyism, as is "Monument to non-existence." Suggestions "All this back talk. You people make me sick." and "I'll destroy everything and make a world of death!"

The soldier that laughs about fire should have his Beavis and Butt-head like speech reverted to "Burn to death!"

But what you do of course, is your own choice.
Agreed that more directly translated character, spell and item names would seem to be the most congruent choice with this project. For our favorite samurai, I think it should be Cayenne like the pepper, no? I believe there might also be a more direct way to translate spell names in many cases.

As far as TWUE, I really can't grasp why so many people come at you to make elements more literal. The goal of the project couldn't be clearer from simply the name of it. 

Overall, I think it's great to have different projects with different stated goals so that the player can ultimately enjoy different experiences. But alas, with the FF fanbase, emotions always seem to run high.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - v1.1
Post by: Masaru on July 26, 2019, 01:04:27 pm
it's curious how from all these projects that want to retranslate final fantasy VI, at this point no one has the idea to fix the rpgone script or port the LoL script into that version, i don't have problem with using TWUE+Add-ons as a base, the question is that thing has me doubting.

(sorry if i put that topic a lot, even if they weren't talking about it)
Title: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated v1.1
Post by: hairy_hen on July 26, 2019, 02:11:20 pm
I don't understand it when people get into arguments about these things either.

My project has always been about getting the story details correct, and to capture as much of the tone and nuance of the original script as possible, while still leaving a bit of room for differences if something can be said in a more interesting way that doesn't change the larger meaning of what is happening in the scene.  Everything else was secondary.

Originally the project was designed to be an addendum to Woolsey Uncensored because all I was interested in doing was writing the script, and didn't want to get into changing other things.  All the item names and everything else were intended to be the same as they are in that version.  My initial submission to the site in that category was rejected, because at the time I hadn't realized that addendum patches weren't supposed to be made from the unmodified game, which I had done in order to make things simpler for the end user.

Once that became clear to me, and once I realized that the additional bug fixes I had tried to include were causing glitches to appear in the text, I decided to rebuild the hack from the ground up, using resources available on ff6hacking.com, so I had to spend some time learning more about how to do that sort of thing.  The end result is that this version is newly built and could be resubmitted as an independent project, and was able to include a vast number of bug fixes without issue.  That it is built differently is visible from the fact that character class names now only appear in the Status screen, and not on the main menu, because I used a different version of the patch that adds them.

Redoing the hack in this way meant that I suddenly had to make decisions about item names and so forth, which I had not given much thought to previously.  I used the official names for almost everything because it was the simplest way to do it, and because they are generally close to the Japanese as far as I know.  I recently became aware that more literal ways of translating certain names have been debated by various people, but I admit I haven't paid all that much attention to it.  Like I said, focusing on the story is higher on my priority list.

My writing is rarely literal, certainly not to the point of being pedantic.  If it were, I would have Locke say things like, "That was your false face," rather than, "They were using you and controlling your thoughts."   In the end, it doesn't make much difference to me whether something is called "Phoenix Down", "Phoenix Tail", or even "Phoenix Ass-feather", as long as you clearly know what it does.   ;)

Now that the project is out, I'm going to change the thread title to reflect its name in the database.  Initially I referenced Mato's website in the title because I didn't want to seem like I was taking credit for translation work not actually done by me, but going forward it will clarify which project this thread is about for anyone who is just finding out about it.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy 6 (Legends of Localization-based script rewrite) - v1.0 available
Post by: Dzumeister on July 26, 2019, 05:07:16 pm
Well considering he used TWUE as a base ROM (which should be noted in the description and Read Me BTW), he probably is using the updated canon names for spells and such. So Firaga, Cura, etc. But if you really want to bring this to a direct LoL translation, you probably should rename all the items and such to be closer to Japanese despite what Square currently calls them in English.

So Terra, Sabin, and Cyan should be Tina, Mash, and Ceyenne respectively.

Phoenix Down should be Phoenix Tail.

Crusader to Jihad

Moogles should be moglies.

Katarin should be Catalina.

And perhaps you might want to remove ALL of the Woolseyims too to a more direct translation, if you haven't done so already in later revisions. Even though Slattery used some of them, Kitase loved them too (he even said they were better than the Japanese, especially with Kefka) they should be closer to the direct Japanese here.

You've probably read my thread recently and everyone has noted which ones everyone here doesn't like including "Son of a Submariner." That should be the straight forward "Argh. Dammit."

Two others I don't know if you changed yet or not is when confronted Kefka at the end. "Self-Help book" is a Woolseyism, as is "Monument to non-existence." Suggestions "All this back talk. You people make me sick." and "I'll destroy everything and make a world of death!"

The soldier that laughs about fire should have his Beavis and Butt-head like speech reverted to "Burn to death!"

But what you do of course, is your own choice.

I don't think his intention was to necessarily erase some of the previous localization choices. Sure, the script inconsistencies were ironed out, but the more interesting dialogue that still made sense is kept, because the goal is to create a good script that reads well for every player, I think  ;)
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: Chicken Knife on July 27, 2019, 07:25:39 am
But what are some examples of lines in the old script that didn't make sense? This isn't the PSX FFVII localization we are talking about. I don't think I've read a line in either official localization of FFVI that made no sense to me and certainly the story was never lost. It was just a matter of liberties being taken for various purposes. Forgive me for having the impression that the purpose of this hack was to bring the game closer to the essence of the Japanese release. (which the RPGONE script did attempt but achieved quite poorly)
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: hairy_hen on July 27, 2019, 01:30:07 pm
(In case it wasn't clear, I was joking about the item names.  I'm okay with the official names, but I do recognize that others consider the exact wording of these things to be quite important, even if it isn't something I get fired up about.)

Lines that didn't make sense in the official releases?  In the annotated script I documented numerous examples, and I'm still only halfway through making notes on it.  I certainly recommend reading it, because the details of the story make a great deal more sense when translated correctly, and in my notes I frequently explain how the internal logic of the story was distorted by previous translations.  The problems go way beyond whether Shadow would kill his mother or his best friend, or whether Sabin looks like a bear or a bodybuilder, or whether submarines exist in this world, or whether Imperial soldiers like watching Beavis and Butthead.  Most of the problems are discussed by Mato in his video series, and some are additional observations I made.  The annotated script can be read here: https://pastebin.com/RyVqkRnY (https://pastebin.com/RyVqkRnY)

I'll talk about some examples that come to mind.  Right from the beginning in the introductory text, the SNES version says that magic ceased to exist after the ancient war, but that isn't true: everyone who survived the war and knew how to use magic went into hiding.  Magic still existed, but hidden away from people who wanted to exploit it.  Later scenes reiterate the idea the Empire has found a way to create magic power, when in fact all they've done is find where it already existed and harness it with their machines.

The scene near the beginning where Locke comes to help Terra escape is heavily mistranslated.  The dialog makes it sound like Imperial troops are chasing her, and that Narshe is no match for the Empire, and they have to join the Returners to stay independent.  What's really going on is that the Narshe guards are chasing her, and the city of Narshe does have the strength to stand up to the Empire, but the people are too stubbornly independent to want to have anything to do with the Returners.  The entirety of the exposition says the exact opposite of what it's supposed to say.

During the scene at the Returner base, both the SNES and GBA versions say that magical machines were used during the ancient war.  The Japanese script says no such thing, and there nothing in the entire game to indicate that machines ever existed back then.  Even the term "Magitek" itself is problematic, because it implies the connection of magic and technology, while the Japanese has no word like that anywhere.  Consequently, both official translations end up saying 'Magitek' very frequently to describe magic usage, but the Japanese only ever uses more general terms for magic and rarely indicates a technological connection.  It took me a little while to reconcile to this difference, but I ended up removing almost every instance of the term 'Magitek' from the script, and the only ones that remain are those that specifically refer to using magic and technology together.

Frequently the problems aren't easy to spot right away because they don't affect the entire scene, but certain lines within a conversation will say the wrong thing and end up skewing what is being talked about in a different direction.  One example is when Banon is trying to persuade the Narshe elder to help the Returners.  In the SNES version he says, "Our blood will spill because of you," but he's actually supposed to say, "We're asking you to shed blood."  The original translation made it sound like he was saying the Returners would die because of the Narshe people, but that is nonsensical and doesn't fit the scenario.  He's actually telling them that his request for them to join the Returners is a serious thing to consider, because he's asking them to kill for their cause.

Many people probably know about the mistranslated line that changed Setzer's entire character motivation, where the SNES version said the Empire had been good for his business, but he was supposed to say the opposite.  What isn't as well known is that there are other examples of this same translation mistake in other places too, where certain NPC's say that their business is going up because the Imperial troops have left the area, but they're really supposed to be saying the Empire had been sustaining their business, and income has dried up once they left.  Much of the NPC dialog throughout the game has issues of one kind or another: the entire section on the Imperial continent has a huge number of errors, and very few of the NPC's say what they are supposed to say during this part.

The subplot of Locke searching for the Phoenix Magicite to revive Rachel was particularly mangled.  There was supposed to be a great deal of foreshadowing about this, but almost none of it survived into the SNES translation and it ends up coming out of nowhere late in the game as a result.  Most of the references made by Locke (and NPC's talking about him) to searching for treasure are meant to refer to the Phoenix Magicite specifically, but it ended up just sounding like he wanted to plunder every place he went to get any old treasure.

The backstory of the Espers, both as related by Ramuh and in Terra's flashback, contained severe mistranslations which distorted the meaning of what was happening quite heavily.  So many details were wrong there that I don't even have time at the moment to get into them, but all of them are covered in the annotated script.  Celes' backstory as told by Cid also had a lot of mistakes: what he says about her childhood in Japanese is very different.

These are some notable examples off the top of my head, but there are many, many others scattered throughout.  Some of them are subtle and some are not.  I've spent a lot of time as an editor for a particularly prolific author friend, so over time I developed a keen sense for these kinds of issues with the internal logic of a story.  So when I say this version captures the tone of the Japanese script, looking at it from a story editor's point of view is what I mean.

Now as to how noticeable these things are while actually playing the game?  I'm not sure.  For some this stuff may not matter much, if at all, but for others it's a bigger deal.  I just found that I couldn't ignore the problems once I'd become aware of them.  I'm actually really curious to hear about people's experiences of playing this version, and whether they find that their understanding of the story and sense of connection with the characters is affected in a meaningful way by the differences in how it is written.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: Chicken Knife on July 27, 2019, 09:03:24 pm
(In case it wasn't clear, I was joking about the item names.  I'm okay with the official names, but I do recognize that others consider the exact wording of these things to be quite important, even if it isn't something I get fired up about.)

Lines that didn't make sense in the official releases?  In the annotated script I documented numerous examples, and I'm still only halfway through making notes on it.  I certainly recommend reading it, because the details of the story make a great deal more sense when translated correctly, and in my notes I frequently explain how the internal logic of the story was distorted by previous translations.  The problems go way beyond whether Shadow would kill his mother or his best friend, or whether Sabin looks like a bear or a bodybuilder, or whether submarines exist in this world, or whether Imperial soldiers like watching Beavis and Butthead.  Most of the problems are discussed by Mato in his video series, and some are additional observations I made.  The annotated script can be read here: https://pastebin.com/RyVqkRnY (https://pastebin.com/RyVqkRnY)

I'll talk about some examples that come to mind.  Right from the beginning in the introductory text, the SNES version says that magic ceased to exist after the ancient war, but that isn't true: everyone who survived the war and knew how to use magic went into hiding.  Magic still existed, but hidden away from people who wanted to exploit it.  Later scenes reiterate the idea the Empire has found a way to create magic power, when in fact all they've done is find where it already existed and harness it with their machines.

The scene near the beginning where Locke comes to help Terra escape is heavily mistranslated.  The dialog makes it sound like Imperial troops are chasing her, and that Narshe is no match for the Empire, and they have to join the Returners to stay independent.  What's really going on is that the Narshe guards are chasing her, and the city of Narshe does have the strength to stand up to the Empire, but the people are too stubbornly independent to want to have anything to do with the Returners.  The entirety of the exposition says the exact opposite of what it's supposed to say.

During the scene at the Returner base, both the SNES and GBA versions say that magical machines were used during the ancient war.  The Japanese script says no such thing, and there nothing in the entire game to indicate that machines ever existed back then.  Even the term "Magitek" itself is problematic, because it implies the connection of magic and technology, while the Japanese has no word like that anywhere.  Consequently, both official translations end up saying 'Magitek' very frequently to describe magic usage, but the Japanese only ever uses more general terms for magic and rarely indicates a technological connection.  It took me a little while to reconcile to this difference, but I ended up removing almost every instance of the term 'Magitek' from the script, and the only ones that remain are those that specifically refer to using magic and technology together.

Frequently the problems aren't easy to spot right away because they don't affect the entire scene, but certain lines within a conversation will say the wrong thing and end up skewing what is being talked about in a different direction.  One example is when Banon is trying to persuade the Narshe elder to help the Returners.  In the SNES version he says, "Our blood will spill because of you," but he's actually supposed to say, "We're asking you to shed blood."  The original translation made it sound like he was saying the Returners would die because of the Narshe people, but that is nonsensical and doesn't fit the scenario.  He's actually telling them that his request for them to join the Returners is a serious thing to consider, because he's asking them to kill for their cause.

Many people probably know about the mistranslated line that changed Setzer's entire character motivation, where the SNES version said the Empire had been good for his business, but he was supposed to say the opposite.  What isn't as well known is that there are other examples of this same translation mistake in other places too, where certain NPC's say that their business is going up because the Imperial troops have left the area, but they're really supposed to be saying the Empire had been sustaining their business, and income has dried up once they left.  Much of the NPC dialog throughout the game has issues of one kind or another: the entire section on the Imperial continent has a huge number of errors, and very few of the NPC's say what they are supposed to say during this part.

The subplot of Locke searching for the Phoenix Magicite to revive Rachel was particularly mangled.  There was supposed to be a great deal of foreshadowing about this, but almost none of it survived into the SNES translation and it ends up coming out of nowhere late in the game as a result.  Most of the references made by Locke (and NPC's talking about him) to searching for treasure are meant to refer to the Phoenix Magicite specifically, but it ended up just sounding like he wanted to plunder every place he went to get any old treasure.

The backstory of the Espers, both as related by Ramuh and in Terra's flashback, contained severe mistranslations which distorted the meaning of what was happening quite heavily.  So many details were wrong there that I don't even have time at the moment to get into them, but all of them are covered in the annotated script.  Celes' backstory as told by Cid also had a lot of mistakes: what he says about her childhood in Japanese is very different.

These are some notable examples off the top of my head, but there are many, many others scattered throughout.  Some of them are subtle and some are not.  I've spent a lot of time as an editor for a particularly prolific author friend, so over time I developed a keen sense for these kinds of issues with the internal logic of a story.  So when I say this version captures the tone of the Japanese script, looking at it from a story editor's point of view is what I mean.

Now as to how noticeable these things are while actually playing the game?  I'm not sure.  For some this stuff may not matter much, if at all, but for others it's a bigger deal.  I just found that I couldn't ignore the problems once I'd become aware of them.  I'm actually really curious to hear about people's experiences of playing this version, and whether they find that their understanding of the story and sense of connection with the characters is affected in a meaningful way by the differences in how it is written.
Thanks for taking the time to explain those highlights. I'm not sure it sounds like the story itself is fundamentally changed, but it seems like the coherence of the world being presented and several character's development has been improved. That is certainly a meaningful and worthwhile effort. I think we can both agree on the problematic aspects of the original localization. I'm also curious what your opinion is of the GBA script. How many issues did it solve versus how many did it create? My own reaction to the GBA script has been positive, if mostly from a perspective of the writing coming across as more refined to my eyes.

And with the item names, I agree that it can be splitting hairs at times (phoenix down/tail/feather etc). What isn't splitting hairs is when the concept of the item has been totally changed. For instance, the SNES localization has a relic called "Economizer" and GBA has the same accessory named "Celestriad". For the former, I picture some kind of bizarre steampunk contraption while for the latter I picture an angelic artifact of divine origin and power. For "The Offering" vs "The Master Scroll" I also capture a wildly different impression from the two names. There were several more like this. You speak about these differences like "some people think this is more accurate, some people think that is more accurate", as if one can't really tell with a little research which is indeed the more accurate translation. For my own projects, even before I developed a partnership with a Japanese translator, I found a solid amount of resources that helped me determine in most cases what the actual concept was behind item names. And since the FF fandom is several factors larger than the Dragon Quest one, I'm sure plenty of information is out there. I wish Tomato had opted to make namings part of his own efforts--which I'm sure would have made approaching them more appealing to you. But nevertheless, I think that names for items, spells, monsters, even characters are just as important a part of a game's translation as the story itself. They are not arbitrary things but elements that we, both in the past as children and still today as adults, become totally engrossed by. I hope I'm not coming across as obnoxiously trying to tell you what to do for your project. I'm just speaking as a player who would be very excited to experience not just the story with all of its details accurate to the vision of the creators but the entire game translated in that same fashion.

It could be that we have a fundamental difference in perspectives here because your priority is to fix problems created by the English localizations while my priority would be to better capture the essence of the Japanese game in every aspect--but not at the cost of the writing's elegance. There's really no need to keep discussing if that really is the distinction. Both of our perspectives are perfectly reasonable.

Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: Heaven Piercing Man on July 28, 2019, 12:24:32 am
The games pretty much used Magitek for every instance of the Japanese word madou, a hard to pinpoint kanji compound which is best translated as "sorcery". The thing is, it only works if used when referring to the Empire's sorcery warmechs, but it got used as a brand name for even the infusion of magic into humans.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: svenge on July 28, 2019, 01:25:54 pm
I wish Tomato had opted to make namings part of his own efforts--which I'm sure would have made approaching them more appealing to you. But nevertheless, I think that names for items, spells, monsters, even characters are just as important a part of a game's translation as the story itself. They are not arbitrary things but elements that we, both in the past as children and still today as adults, become totally engrossed by.

Looking at your patch for the first Dragon Quest game, I think you've gone a step too far in arbitrarily making up spell names that don't fit either the conventions from previous official English translations nor even simply transliterate the original Japanese.  A player shouldn't be expected to have to read patch notes just to figure out basic interface functions like that.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: AdamDravian on July 28, 2019, 02:26:47 pm
As far as translating creature names, I'd really appreciate it if Kappa was not translated as Imp. I think kappas have gained enough foothold in English pop culture that such an adaptation is no longer necessary.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: Chicken Knife on July 28, 2019, 03:08:17 pm
Looking at your patch for the first Dragon Quest game, I think you've gone a step too far in arbitrarily making up spell names that don't fit either the conventions from previous official English translations nor even simply transliterate the original Japanese.  A player shouldn't be expected to have to read patch notes just to figure out basic interface functions like that.
I apologize for shifting to another game topic on this thread but I have to respond to this. I can't even begin to tell you how much research and how many discussions with a litany of people went into the choice to create a new spell naming system when we actually began with transliterating the spells. I initially went with transliterating the spells because they first appeared to be nonsense words in Japanese. People weren't pleased with this choice as the vast majority of English language players were not familiar with the Japanese spell names. Regardless, we stuck to our guns for some time. After lots of additional research and pulling in skilled partners, we determined that a majority of the Japanese spell names actually do contain fragments of meaning, clear enough to have given a Japanese person a vague sense of the spell function. The NES spell names were too straightforward to resemble this. The contemporary naming system was also more straightforward than the Japanese along with most of the names sounding very silly and not matching the original tone. As for the system that my team came up with, this is the first time I've heard someone say that they had no sense of the functions. Exaraki for instance (based on the Japanese spell Zaraki or Thwack/Defeat in official translations) is intended to sound a bit like execution. If they are a little vague, that is ultimately what we were going for with the goal of equivalency. But if you are actually familiar with the Japanese naming system, that should make them even clearer. As Exaraki demonstrates, they tend to be very similar to the Japanese words. But in general, if a player has no desire to go through the exact same process every Japanese kid did when the DQ games were released, the Delocalized hacks are probably not for them.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: BlazeHeatnix on July 28, 2019, 03:09:12 pm
I think this thread could use a different name, so as not to confuse with the 100 other Retranslation projects out there.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: Special on July 28, 2019, 03:47:34 pm
Who is being confused by the name that requires this change? How many active re-translation projects are even going or being discussed right now, like there's the Woolsey thread and then this one... OP is pretty clear what this project is about.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: svenge on July 28, 2019, 08:58:45 pm
But in general, if a player has no desire to go through the exact same process every Japanese kid did when the DQ games were released, the Delocalized hacks are probably not for them.

Seeing that I just want a "standard" translation with its dialog/storyline not mangled like JRPG translations of the 80s/90s typically were while using modern conventions for items/spells/enemies (especially for series whose later games got proper translations), I guess it's not for me then.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: Chicken Knife on July 28, 2019, 10:13:33 pm
Seeing that I just want a "standard" translation with its dialog/storyline not mangled like JRPG translations of the 80s/90s typically were while using modern conventions for items/spells/enemies (especially for series whose later games got proper translations), I guess it's not for me then.
Not an issue at all. I certainly didn't develop my hack for everyone. You'd probably enjoy what Choppasmith is doing a great deal more.

Going back to FF6, I do think the contemporary Final Fantasy item/spell/enemy naming conventions are a hell of a lot better and closer to the style of the original creation than they are for Dragon Quest, in spite of my nitpicks.

Since it seems to have been used as the base, I'm curious how consistently the Ted Woosley Uncensored Edition sticks to those modern conventions. For spells, it certainly does. And I remember enemy names being thoroughly updated. But I seem to recall item names sticking pretty closely to the SNES version. I just attempted to pull up the readme file for TWUE but none of that information is there unfortunately. If my impression is correct that those namings are in fact not the modern namings, perhaps they could at least be updated to the modern ones for this project?
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: Rodimus Primal on July 28, 2019, 10:46:29 pm
Not an issue at all. I certainly didn't develop my hack for everyone. You'd probably enjoy what Choppasmith is doing a great deal more.

Going back to FF6, I do think the contemporary Final Fantasy item/spell/enemy naming conventions are a hell of a lot better and closer to the style of the original creation than they are for Dragon Quest, in spite of my nitpicks.

Since it seems to have been used as the base, I'm curious how consistently the Ted Woosley Uncensored Edition sticks to those modern conventions. For spells, it certainly does. And I remember enemy names being thoroughly updated. But I seem to recall item names sticking pretty closely to the SNES version. I just attempted to pull up the readme file for TWUE but none of that information is there unfortunately. If my impression is correct that those namings are in fact not the modern namings, perhaps they could at least be updated to the modern ones for this project?

I have more than one read-me file when you download TWUE. The basic one gives you the gist of the project, the change log, and patching instructions. There's also a bug-fixes used compendium, a monster list, an item list, and a document (thanks to Chronosplit) detailing what other patches are compatible with TWUE. For the most part, I went with modern names with a few exceptions here and there.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: Chicken Knife on July 28, 2019, 11:38:23 pm
I have more than one read-me file when you download TWUE. The basic one gives you the gist of the project, the change log, and patching instructions. There's also a bug-fixes used compendium, a monster list, an item list, and a document (thanks to Chronosplit) detailing what other patches are compatible with TWUE. For the most part, I went with modern names with a few exceptions here and there.
Thanks for chiming in and directing me to those lists. Yes, I can see with a quick peruse that everything is very much in line with contemporary conventions.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: tc on July 29, 2019, 12:20:24 am
Seeing that I just want a "standard" translation with its dialog/storyline not mangled like JRPG translations of the 80s/90s typically were while using modern conventions for items/spells/enemies (especially for series whose later games got proper translations), I guess it's not for me then.

Well that's assuming the modern conventions are adequate. What do you do when the official translation even today is still by all means utterly wrong, but fans will be irate if it's changed?
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: hairy_hen on July 29, 2019, 10:57:18 am
Kwhazit has a comprehensive list of names for items and enemies and so forth, so I spent part of yesterday going through it to see whether any changes to naming were warranted.  I found that it largely agrees with the GBA version on how to translate these things, so it seems nearly all of them can be left as they are without issue, because they are already accurately worded.

There were a few notable differences, so I did end up making some adjustments where they felt significant.  Only a small number of items have been changed, but I did end up renaming somewhere around ten percent of the enemies to reflect the Japanese more closely.

Some of them are clearly nonsensical joke names, and changing them to something more straightforward doesn't result in the loss of any important information.  Nonetheless I did try to port these over where I could.  One enemy is called something like "Barf of Love" spelled backwards.   :huh:  I ended up naming him "Evoltimov".  Another was especially obscure: it is the word for 'bird', backwards and misspelled, followed by a division sign, followed by 'snake', again backwards and misspelled.   :o   After much back and forth on whether this was even worth bothering with, I eventually settled on "Revo Ekans".

I haven't looked at the spell names yet, but I expect the situation there will be similar and not much will need to be done.

Chicken Knife asked about how well the story information is presented in the GBA version.  Mato was quite consistent in his praise for how well it was translated, and if you play that version you'll get nearly all of it.  There are a few things that aren't quite right, such as the 'Magitek' issue I mentioned earlier, and Kefka making eloquent remarks to Celes after she stabs him, when he's actually supposed to be freaking out and screaming/babbling incoherently.  It also has some unfortunate things like Ultros making jokes about tentacle porn; and it translates Cyan calling Celes a "dog of the Empire" as "Imperial b--", which contextually feels off and should be more akin to calling her "swine" or something of that nature.  There were probably a few other things like this that I don't remember off the top of my head.

My version deals with these things more straightforwardly and without the weirdness, so naturally I prefer it; but the GBA's issues are pretty minor overall and it certainly isn't wrong to play and enjoy that version.  One of the things Mato often emphasized is that there isn't always just one valid way of translating things, and he tended to refrain from definitively stating that one approach or interpretation was unquestionably superior to another.  I adhered to his assessment of the original script quite closely, but undoubtedly my own reaction to what he was saying would have affected the tone of the writing to some extent.

Anyway, we're probably looking at a version 1.2 in the near future, to incorporate some naming updates and additional text formatting improvements, and hopefully there won't be much more to do after that.  I still want to actually play this thing at some point without looking for stuff to be fixed.  ;)
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: Chicken Knife on July 29, 2019, 11:19:07 am
Kwhazit has a comprehensive list of names for items and enemies and so forth, so I spent part of yesterday going through it to see whether any changes to naming were warranted.  I found that it largely agrees with the GBA version on how to translate these things, so it seems nearly all of them can be left as they are without issue, because they are already accurately worded.

There were a few notable differences, so I did end up making some adjustments where they felt significant.  Only a small number of items have been changed, but I did end up renaming somewhere around ten percent of the enemies to reflect the Japanese more closely.

Some of them are clearly nonsensical joke names, and changing them to something more straightforward doesn't result in the loss of any important information.  Nonetheless I did try to port these over where I could.  One enemy is called something like "Barf of Love" spelled backwards.   :huh:  I ended up naming him "Evoltimov".  Another was especially obscure: it is the word for 'bird', backwards and misspelled, followed by a division sign, followed by 'snake', again backwards and misspelled.   :o   After much back and forth on whether this was even worth bothering with, I eventually settled on "Revo Ekans".

I haven't looked at the spell names yet, but I expect the situation there will be similar and not much will need to be done.

Chicken Knife asked about how well the story information is presented in the GBA version.  Mato was quite consistent in his praise for how well it was translated, and if you play that version you'll get nearly all of it.  There are a few things that aren't quite right, such as the 'Magitek' issue I mentioned earlier, and Kefka making eloquent remarks to Celes after she stabs him, when he's actually supposed to be freaking out and screaming/babbling incoherently.  It also has some unfortunate things like Ultros making jokes about tentacle porn; and it translates Cyan calling Celes a "dog of the Empire" as "Imperial b--", which contextually feels off and should be more akin to calling her "swine" or something of that nature.  There were probably a few other things like this that I don't remember off the top of my head.

My version deals with these things more straightforwardly and without the weirdness, so naturally I prefer it; but the GBA's issues are pretty minor overall and it certainly isn't wrong to play and enjoy that version.  One of the things Mato often emphasized is that there isn't always just one valid way of translating things, and he tended to refrain from definitively stating that one approach or interpretation was unquestionably superior to another.  I adhered to his assessment of the original script quite closely, but undoubtedly my own reaction to what he was saying would have affected the tone of the writing to some extent.

Anyway, we're probably looking at a version 1.2 in the near future, to incorporate some naming updates and additional text formatting improvements, and hopefully there won't be much more to do after that.  I still want to actually play this thing at some point without looking for stuff to be fixed.  ;)
Thanks for taking a look through those lists.  :) I figured there wouldn't be many needed tweaks but I'm sure the ones you updated were meaningful improvements. Doing so makes your project even more comprehensive in its scope. For character names, the game provides the option of renaming them so I'll happily be able to use Tina, Mash, Cayenne, etc. As far as enemy names, I enjoyed hearing about the original's use of reversing the letter order of words. I've always noticed how absolutely bizarre many of the enemy names are in FF6 and FF7 and this practice certainly sheds some light on the matter. Also, as I said before, if you come across something that doesn't make sense in Japanese and you aren't finding quality information about it, let me know. I have two partners who are brilliant at solving these kinds of things.

As far as being able to enjoy it like a player, good luck with that!  :laugh: I can never manage to take off my editor's hat, even though half of the reason we make these things is for our own satisfaction. Maybe years down the road I'll be able to just play them and immerse myself without constantly worrying about what can be improved.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: AdamDravian on July 29, 2019, 01:37:24 pm
For character names, the game provides the option of renaming them so I'll happily be able to use Tina, Mash, Cayenne, etc.

Very true. Yet we're at the mercy of Hairy Hen when it comes to NPCs. Personally, I'm hoping to see the following characters have their more accurate names:
Orthros
Typhon
Madeline
Gastra (or even Gestra ... something closer to the original)
Madeen

And ever since I've learned what an ESPer is (someone with ESP powers), it stands out as an extremely odd choice for a race of legendary beings. I know another official translation is eidolon, but I still feel a better term could be used. As I'm sure many of you know, the Japanese term (which is consistently used in every Japanese FF game that features them) is “Genjuu”, which is a made-up term that combines the kanji for “illusory/phantom” and the kanji for “beast/big monster/big creature.” So a literal translation could be something like Phantom-Beast, Mythic-Monster, or Legendary-Creature, but those all fail to convey that it’s a new made-up fantasy word. So something like Mythster or Phanbeast would be more accurate. Personally, I might go with something like Mythics, which I feel conveys the same ethereal vibe that "esper" does but without the out of place ESP connection.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: vivify93 on July 29, 2019, 02:16:47 pm
You could always just call them Eidolons, like most modern FFs do. Though that creates an issue of needing a squish tile set in the Skills menu...
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: Chicken Knife on July 29, 2019, 03:05:26 pm
This got me playing with compound words. The best I came up with is probably Spectradon--the don suffix, although referring in Greek to teeth, is commonly associated with great beasts. However, the length of that one--along with all the others I came up with--would be problematic.

Eidolon has a very appropriate Greek origin and meaning and I think it does achieve a beast like effect. The GBA translation team did a fine job in choosing this.

As far as AdamDravian's wish for comprehensive character renamings, I'm obviously of the same feeling--but we are in the minority. Nostalgia runs fiercest with character names, especially in a series that has never changed them with official localizations. If hairy_hen doesn't share our feelings, I would certainly understand and it wouldn't stop me from enjoying this hack.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: AdamDravian on July 29, 2019, 05:20:23 pm
Eidolon has a very appropriate Greek origin and meaning and I think it does achieve a beast like effect. The GBA translation team did a fine job in choosing this.

Yeah, I think Eidolon is totally acceptable and is definitely an improvement over Esper. I only have two really minor gripes with it. One, it's an actual word, whereas genjuu is a made-up compound word. And two, the pronunciation for Eidolon isn't very intuitive, so I always hear people mispronounce it as AHY-doh-lohn instead of the correct pronunciation: ahy-DOH-luhn.

Like I said, really minor gripes.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: vivify93 on July 29, 2019, 05:44:10 pm
Eidolon has a very appropriate Greek origin and meaning and I think it does achieve a beast like effect. The GBA translation team did a fine job in choosing this.
Slattery's translation (Not just the GBA version, but all later releases that use his script) actually uses Espers, too.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: Chicken Knife on July 29, 2019, 05:54:24 pm
Slattery's translation (Not just the GBA version, but all later releases that use his script) actually uses Espers, too.

No kidding! I guess he considered it, along with character names, to be off-limits for revision.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: pleasejust on July 29, 2019, 09:09:02 pm
I always disliked son of a submariner. Other than that and a few other minor things, I think this might be the definitive FFVI translation and hack combo. Nice work. Now. In retrospect, as far as the actual game is concerned... eeehh hasn't aged that well for me.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: vivify93 on July 29, 2019, 09:43:30 pm
No kidding! I guess he considered it, along with character names, to be off-limits for revision.
There's that, I guess, and then other games (Mostly the Ivalice Alliance) use the term "Esper" as well. FFVI was kind of the genesis of the term in the series.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: tc on July 29, 2019, 10:22:53 pm
I always disliked son of a submariner. Other than that and a few other minor things, I think this might be the definitive FFVI translation and hack combo. Nice work. Now. In retrospect, as far as the actual game is concerned... eeehh hasn't aged that well for me.

I could do without lines like that.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: hairy_hen on July 30, 2019, 02:23:29 am
Kefka's speech style in Japanese varies widely depending on the scene, and I think sometimes even within scenes.  He can sound anywhere from super-arrogant, to giddy little boy, to anywhere in between at the drop of a hat.  I don't know enough about the language to get into specifics very much, but the writing relies at least in part on the fact that Japanese has dozens of personal pronouns, and he frequently switches between them in ways that make him sound bizarre and disturbing.  The long and short of it is that the way he speaks does not translate directly into English very well, and a straightforward rendering would only serve to flatten out the dialog and make it much more bland.

It was very likely for this reason that Ted Woolsey chose to change the wording of many of his lines into the wacky, off-the-wall strangeness we're familiar with.  Had he not done so, Kefka's insanity wouldn't have come across as well as it should, and he would have been a less interesting villain to English-speaking audiences.  Woolsey arguably went even farther than the original script in the degree of craziness he imparted, but only rarely was the flow of the dialog actually affected by this.

So while things like "son of a submariner" aren't strictly accurate to what the Japanese dialog says, they do serve to reinsert the sense of barely-contained lunacy that Kefka is intended to give off, which otherwise would have been quite diluted in a more literal translation.  It was for this reason that I kept much of Woolsey's dialog for Kefka intact: not just because it is memorable or nostalgic, but because it is effective localization which serves the character well.  I adjusted the wording as needed to make sure the story information was conveyed correctly, but I generally used a light touch.

The only place with a really significant difference where I felt compelled to follow the Japanese more closely is during the lead-up to the final confrontation.  In the original script, Kefka (who has had over a year to revel in his victory and destroy as many things as he likes) becomes philosophical and wonders aloud why people would ever bother to rebuild things they've lost, since all life is meaningless and will never amount to anything, because time will destroy it all in the end.  In the SNES version this sense of nihilism is mostly lost and he just sounds like he wants to wreck stuff for no real reason.  It isn't the deepest philosophical discussion ever written, but nonetheless it adds an interesting layer to his character that deserved to be included.


Now, as far as character names go... any changes there would probably have to be an alternate or add-on patch, so that nobody would be alienated by having to use names they didn't like.  Typhon and Madeline are already in there, as is Kappa, and I certainly wouldn't mind having Orthros make an appearance, but I've seen people say that changing the names of the main characters makes them seem like completely different people they can't relate to, so I'm wary of trying to force that in there without having the more familiar names also available.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: Heaven Piercing Man on July 30, 2019, 02:33:02 am
Genjuu have always been inconsistent in both Japan (genjuu, shoukanjuu, GF, banshin, shinjuu) and the English versions (summons, espers, GF, eidolons, aeons, primals, totema, etc) so I guess it doesn't matter in the end

Quote
Typhon and Madeline are already in there

All's right with the world.

I mean, as much as I dislike Woolsey, I'm fine with his name changes UNLESS they're cringy or take you out of of the game because they're out of place from a real world perspective. "Sucker" and a pop singer really kill the experience.

I agree with you on Kefka, his wording style has always been spot on, it's the accuracy of what he is saying what matters.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: Dzumeister on July 30, 2019, 04:37:03 pm
I could do without lines like that.

I prefer Son of a sandworm! from the GBA version.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: Piotyr on August 01, 2019, 02:10:10 am
Can we get this translation ported to the steam version too? The hacking community for that has done a great job of fixing the issues it has and I would love for it to get the best translation it can get too.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: BuddySievers on August 01, 2019, 08:25:23 pm
I have a bug with the 1.1 version.
In Zozo when i jump from the first building/right to the second/left and try to jump back or when i continue and want to jump from the second/left to the right one again the game freezes!
I tried it with Zsnes 1.51w and with bsnes_v107r1-windows and it freezes on both emulators.
Here is a link to a srm save outside of Zozo and a bsnes savestate at the rooftop right before the jump where it freezes.
https://www.mediafire.com/file/cy25c14d6w0efgl/FF3_Retranslation_Saves_Zozo_Bug.7z/file

Other then that i must say the hack is absolute awesome.
Its way better then the original but still feels like its a real SNES game in that way!

Hope for a bugfix or maybe a freezer code to get walking thru walls to continue my journey haha! :)
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: svenge on August 01, 2019, 09:13:02 pm
I just tried out that .SRM save file (but not the save-state), and it seems that v1.0 and v1.1 do indeed have that freeze bug, but not the unofficial "v0.99".  Since hairy_hen stated that v1.0 and later were freshly assembled and is no longer just a mere modification of TWUE, that would indicate that something went wrong with v1.0's creation process.

Probably never noticed it on my end because I began my current play-through on v0.99 and didn't transition to v1.0 and v1.1 (while keeping the same save file) until after the Zozo sequence.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: BuddySievers on August 02, 2019, 12:34:31 pm
I just tried out that .SRM save file (but not the save-state), and it seems that v1.0 and v1.1 do indeed have that freeze bug, but not the unofficial "v0.99".  Since hairy_hen stated that v1.0 and later were freshly assembled and is no longer just a mere modification of TWUE, that would indicate that something went wrong with v1.0's creation process.

Probably never noticed it on my end because I began my current play-through on v0.99 and didn't transition to v1.0 and v1.1 (while keeping the same save file) until after the Zozo sequence.

Thanks for confirming its not just on my end!
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: hairy_hen on August 02, 2019, 01:25:04 pm
Yikes!  I'll have to test it and see which of the patches I added is causing that.  Thanks for letting me know of the problem.

August 02, 2019, 06:25:31 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
Okay, I've tested it on a real Super Nintendo and I get the same freezing problem.

However, when I put together a new file using the add-on patches I used to assemble my version (bug fixes, uncensored graphics, etc), I don't have any crashes and can make it all the way up to Ramuh, so the problem isn't coming from any of them.

Aside from the updated script, the only thing not included in the test file was a patch I made myself which contains the updated names for items and so on.  It would seem that the rom I made this patch from must have somehow become corrupted, so any version I've used it on would probably have this same freezing issue.  (I'm guessing this is also how the strange 'Teath Tarot' text glitch appeared in v1.0.)

So the good news is that it doesn't seem to be a complicated issue and can be fixed straightforwardly.  The bad news is that it looks like I'll have to re-enter all the updated names over again, which is a bit tedious.  Thankfully hex editing will make it easier to do this time around.  Hopefully I can get the bug fix out before too many people are affected by it.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: vivify93 on August 07, 2019, 11:41:09 pm
Are you using C. V. Reynolds' Bug-fix Compilation at all? Or anything adjacent to it? Because there are several patches in the Compilation that cause issues with FF3usME.

Miraculous, Death-Defying Always-Left-Facing Jumps in Zozo (mblock129)
  [While applied, causes hanging bug after editing game in FF3usME.]
Shadow is Not a Girl (mblock129)
  [While applied, causes hanging bug after editing game in FF3usME.]
Various Texts' (Imzogelmo)
  [Interferes with description pointers in FF3usME.]

I have all of Mblock / Zephyr's patches here, as well as an anti-patch for Zozo Jumps.

http://www.bwass.org/bucket/Zephyr129_mods.zip

http://www.bwass.org/bucket/AntiZozoJump.ips (I believe this is for a headered ROM)

I don't have an anti-patch of Various Texts' Fixes by Imzog, however. You'd have to make one yourself.

You can also reapply Zozo Jumps after editing the game in FF3usME (But not Shadow Girl or Various Texts' due to pointer/text issues) to get its effect working in your edited game, but it would break future compatibility with FF3usME for anyone who wanted to mod on top of FFVI Retranslated.

By the way... since it's not obvious, this is what Zozo Jumps does.

Normally in Zozo, whether you're jumping left or right, a character will display "Near Fatal" sprite, then stand facing the camera with both arms up, then the "Near Fatal" sprite displays again. After this, the jump animation plays out. The issue is that "Near Fatal" sprites, typically, face left. So Zozo Jumps adds an extra event to flip the "Near Fatal" sprite horizontally when the player jumps to the right. That way, it looks like the character's back isn't facing the wrong way before they jump right.

It's... pretty useless. Not to knock on Zephyr's hard work, but... I don't understand the need for this patch, since it's not a bug. It must've annoyed them pretty deeply, LOL.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: hairy_hen on August 08, 2019, 05:52:05 pm
Yeah, that's the bug fix compilation I've been using.  It's very convenient to have all these fixes together in one place, without having to worry about which ones need a header and which ones don't (a nightmare from an organizational standpoint).  Unfortunately, you're right that the compilation is too ambitious in what it tries to do.  My rom files have been getting corrupted at an alarming rate while trying to figure this out, so after much frustration and gnashing of teeth, I was forced to the conclusion that something in that patch was causing FF3usME to write garbage data into the file after it had been applied.  Depending on what order I put things together, I either consistently ended up with the freeze in Zozo, or else I avoided that but got a bunch of glitched out nonsense in the text, which fits exactly with what you described.  It's a relief to finally know what specifically was causing it.

A user on ff6hacking.com came up with a workaround by extracting the portions of the compilation that deal with battle algorithms and leaving the rest out.  The portions he extracted only affect addresses from C0 to C3, and it looks like the Zozo jumping patch acts in the CA range, which means it has been eliminated and will no longer appear in this project.  I too question its necessity as a 'fix', and since I made my own text changes for both of the other things you mentioned, they don't need to be here either.

Anyway, version 1.2 is finally ready and has been submitted.  Hopefully there won't be any more issues like this!  In addition to solving the freezing problem, this update also contains a number of changes to enemy/item names and descriptions, as well as a few tweaks to the script.  It looks like the queue is pretty short at the moment, so hopefully it won't take long for this one to go through.

August 08, 2019, 07:01:37 pm - (Auto Merged - Double Posts are not allowed before 7 days.)
And it's up!  That was fast...

This new version is in .bps format, so be sure to use an appropriate utility.  MultiPatch is great for OS X folks, and Floating IPS works well on Windows.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: vivify93 on August 08, 2019, 09:10:39 pm
Yeah, I found out about those 3 patches causing errors when I tried to work on my own personal project. (Which won't be seeing release, since A. There are like 10 FFVI scripts in existence, B. At this point, it looks like said project is basically "FFVI Retranslated Lite Edition". Definitely not needed.) It looks like all other patches in the Compilation are fine though, thankfully. Advanced Patch Conflict Finder (Which can be found in the Utilities section here on RHDN) is very useful for seeing if things aren't copacetic.

For what it's worth, the following patches work in conjunction with the Bug-fix Comp.

Alphabetical Rage (Assassin) - You probably wouldn't want to use this due to your renamed enemies
B Button Dash [Dash B ver.] (Master ZED) [with additional fixing by SilentEnigma]
Blitz Screen (Leet Sketcher)
Button Settings Menu Restoration (Novalia Spirit)
Color Wheel (Leet Sketcher)
King's Robes (Leet Sketcher)
SwdTech Ready Stance [Version B] (HatZen08)
Total Graphics Uncensorship (vivify93, though as noted there's a small bug in the mine cart battle BG with Dr. Meat's uncensored final bosses patch)
Rewards Display (HatZen08)
Y Equip Relics (Leet Sketcher) [with additional fixing by Subtraction]
Shorter Skill Name Fix (Madsiur)

Not sure if these are compatible with stuff like the expanded strings patch, though.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: Chicken Knife on August 08, 2019, 11:54:35 pm
Hey. I wanted to send you a note that I've played through the Narshe events with the version of your project that got published today. I really enjoyed all of your writing so far. vivify93 can attest what a pain in the ass I can be about phrasings and such, but this held up very well for me. I've done a FF6 play recently and have too many things on the docket to do the whole game right now, but I was really happy to get a taste of your work and know that I can recommend it.

I do hope you decide at some point to do an alternate version that throws out the localization traditions, but I would suggest sticking with one version for now while you are doing regular updates. Down the road when everything has settled, that's probably a better time for alternates. Managing multiple versions at once is just not worth the headache. Even on my projects, I plan on eventually giving a lot of people what they want with mainstream naming conventions--but they can wait or give our namings a try in the meantime :laugh:
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: azidahaka on August 09, 2019, 05:26:20 am
Kefka's speech style in Japanese varies widely depending on the scene, and I think sometimes even within scenes.  He can sound anywhere from super-arrogant, to giddy little boy, to anywhere in between at the drop of a hat.  I don't know enough about the language to get into specifics very much, but the writing relies at least in part on the fact that Japanese has dozens of personal pronouns, and he frequently switches between them in ways that make him sound bizarre and disturbing.  The long and short of it is that the way he speaks does not translate directly into English very well, and a straightforward rendering would only serve to flatten out the dialog and make it much more bland.

You mean somethings like
"I'll go kill them all, for the puny little me, i'm sure us won't let any survive"
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: pleasejust on August 09, 2019, 11:44:45 pm
Quote
You mean somethings like
"I'll go kill them all, for the puny little me, I'm sure us won't let any survive"

I think that actually works. It does kinda make him sound like a rambling psycho.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: azidahaka on August 10, 2019, 05:16:39 pm
I think that actually works. It does kinda make him sound like a rambling psycho.

Yeah this is always what i figured Kefla would sound like in the original japanese version. He's always been a character that resonated with my inner self (sounds weird i know)...

I would love to get a script of kefka's speaches with his pronoum changes so i can kind of "act" them in my mind and come out with my personal own kefka's madness speach.

Would love to hear about his from @hairy_hen what he thinks about this and if it would work as a way to localize Kefka's insanity
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: tterTreasure on August 11, 2019, 10:42:33 am
What are the translation errors in FFVI GBA?
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: hairy_hen on August 13, 2019, 05:07:47 pm
Hey. I wanted to send you a note that I've played through the Narshe events with the version of your project that got published today. I really enjoyed all of your writing so far. vivify93 can attest what a pain in the ass I can be about phrasings and such, but this held up very well for me. I've done a FF6 play recently and have too many things on the docket to do the whole game right now, but I was really happy to get a taste of your work and know that I can recommend it.

I do hope you decide at some point to do an alternate version that throws out the localization traditions, but I would suggest sticking with one version for now while you are doing regular updates. Down the road when everything has settled, that's probably a better time for alternates. Managing multiple versions at once is just not worth the headache. Even on my projects, I plan on eventually giving a lot of people what they want with mainstream naming conventions--but they can wait or give our namings a try in the meantime :laugh:

I'm glad to hear that!  If you do end up playing the whole thing at a later time, I hope you'll find the rest to be as enjoyable as the beginning.  I am open to the idea of making an alternate version with different character names and so on.  You're right that it would make it more difficult to keep track of changes, so I haven't yet attempted it, but once the project has settled into a finalized state it will be easier to do.

About Kefka's speech: to properly understand the pronoun issue, I suggest reading the Legends of Localization article on the subject: https://legendsoflocalization.com/personal-pronouns-in-japanese/ (https://legendsoflocalization.com/personal-pronouns-in-japanese/)

It took me a little while to wrap my head around this concept, since it is so different from anything English speakers ever have to deal with.  The more I thought about it, the more evident it became that there just isn't anything directly analogous in this language, so any form of writing that relies on it to show information about a character will be lost unless it can be conveyed convincingly in other ways.  There is nothing unusual about Kefka's grammar per se; what makes him sound so strange is the way he seems to change identities whenever he feels like it, which makes him seem distinctly unhinged.  Mato compares Japanese personal pronouns to clothing, which one uses to express a certain view of oneself to others, so it is almost as if Kefka is randomly switching into completely different costumes on a whim.

Given the difficulty of conveying this in translation, giving him extravagant and unusually-worded phrases in English seems less like an alteration and much more like a means of salvaging something that would be deflated if all those pronouns were just rendered as 'I' and 'me'.

What are the translation errors in FFVI GBA?

There are very few outright mistakes in the GBA.  I talked about a few things in an earlier post in the thread, but most of them are more issues with the style than with the actual substance of the writing.  In terms of accuracy this version is pretty much on par with it, so which would make for a better experience is pretty much going to come down to what kind of writing you prefer, and whether you want to play the game in its original form for the SNES or if you don't mind the changes in presentation made in later re-releases.  (And of course the GBA and Steam versions have unofficial mods available to correct some of their graphical and audio problems.)


I started playing version 1.2 a few days ago, and I'm having a good time with it.  This will only be the second time I'll have played FF6 all the way through, so even though I've spent so much time looking at the text, the actual game itself is still relatively new for me.  Naturally I spotted a few places where the text formatting could still be improved, so I'll probably go back and fix up a few little things later on, but for now I'm just kind of getting immersed in the world from a player's perspective.  I wouldn't call it a perfect game by any means ("flawed masterpiece" is probably the best term I can think of to describe it), but it sure is a lot of fun!
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: Piotyr on August 13, 2019, 07:55:16 pm
I wouldn't call it a perfect game by any means ("flawed masterpiece" is probably the best term I can think of to describe it)
I think compared to what was out there at the time it very much was a master piece. About the only thing I wish they did different was make the game require more strategy, most of the game can be beat with piling on more damage really.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: Chicken Knife on August 13, 2019, 10:57:29 pm
I strongly agree with the flawed masterpiece tag. While the game has some of the best characters in JRPGs and probably the most iconic plot twist, the narrative gets a little too diffuse for my tastes in act 2, and in that same stretch the gameplay pulls apart at the seams compared to its much tighter predecessor FF5. The game gets way too easy as it goes on, with you killing end game bosses in what seems like seconds--no grinding required. And it's also sad how you get these uber powerful end game equipment pieces and have nothing to kill with them but Brachiosaurs. Never did a game more need a super boss. I guess we could go to the GBA but eww to that. Adding in a godly powerful Kaiser Dragon is something I'm shocked isn't readily available in a patch. Or maybe it is? The list is a little overwhelming.

And speaking of being overpowered in the end game, there's a bug I'm not sure I've ever seen fixed: the fact that the master scroll doesn't halve damage on each strike from fixed dice like it does for every other weapon. Would actually love to see a fix for that. I always tell myself I'm not going to abuse it but I always end up doing so. And I'm quite sure the master scroll doesn't halve the damage of the valiant knife either. Maybe there's more?
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: Piotyr on August 14, 2019, 03:36:45 am
Honestly FF5 had better gameplay but FF6 has better story, having no real main character through the entire game (Terra Celes and Locke come close but still) is an interesting concept that not many other games do.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: hairy_hen on August 17, 2019, 03:45:24 pm
I wasn't planning on making any updates until I'd finished my playthrough, but I spotted a few text formatting errors that bugged me just enough to want to do something about them right away.  These tended to be cases where a line would reach the right edge of the text box, and FF3usME didn't always represent the line breaks the way they actually appeared while playing.  I went through the whole script and adjusted the formatting of anything that looked like it could potentially be an issue, so hopefully I got them all.  Minor errors and inconsistencies in the spell and item descriptions (such as Mute vs Silence) have also been corrected.

I also took the opportunity to improve the dialog a little bit more.  Some of Ultros' lines in the opera battle sounded strange, and I realized that was because I'd never actually done anything with them.  Whenever there are weird-sounding lines like that, it's generally a sign that they were initially translated without context, causing them to end up sounding oddly disconnected from the rest of the dialog.  His speech in this scene makes more sense now, although it is still quirky due to the comical nature of it.

Version 1.2.1 has been approved and is available for download.  I also wrote a news article for the project to try to boost its visibility, although it isn't up yet.  In it I emphasized the story-driven nature of the script rewrite, and while I don't know how broad an appeal the project really has from that angle, I wanted to explain my motivations for doing it and the reasons I felt it was worthwhile.


As far as the game's difficulty balance is concerned... that is part of what I was referring to earlier.  I have a few ideas on how to tweak things to prevent the balance from falling apart, and I might end up trying to implement them at some point in the future.  This wouldn't be anything drastic like some other projects have tried to do, just adjusting anything that is too overpowered in order to restore a fair challenge to places where it is lacking.  I agree with Chicken Knife that the cohesion of the story does start to fall in the second half.  It is quite noticeable that 75% of FF6's dialog takes place in the first half of the game, and the remainder is more a series of disconnected vignettes that doesn't have much resemblance to the tightly-focused plot that marked the earlier scenes.  Nonetheless it is still a great story, and of course I'd hardly have spent so much time working on it if I hadn't liked it as much as I did.  ;)
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: Chicken Knife on August 17, 2019, 06:58:56 pm
I wasn't planning on making any updates until I'd finished my playthrough, but I spotted a few text formatting errors that bugged me just enough to want to do something about them right away.  These tended to be cases where a line would reach the right edge of the text box, and FF3usME didn't always represent the line breaks the way they actually appeared while playing.  I went through the whole script and adjusted the formatting of anything that looked like it could potentially be an issue, so hopefully I got them all.  Minor errors and inconsistencies in the spell and item descriptions (such as Mute vs Silence) have also been corrected.

I also took the opportunity to improve the dialog a little bit more.  Some of Ultros' lines in the opera battle sounded strange, and I realized that was because I'd never actually done anything with them.  Whenever there are weird-sounding lines like that, it's generally a sign that they were initially translated without context, causing them to end up sounding oddly disconnected from the rest of the dialog.  His speech in this scene makes more sense now, although it is still quirky due to the comical nature of it.

Version 1.2.1 has been approved and is available for download.  I also wrote a news article for the project to try to boost its visibility, although it isn't up yet.  In it I emphasized the story-driven nature of the script rewrite, and while I don't know how broad an appeal the project really has from that angle, I wanted to explain my motivations for doing it and the reasons I felt it was worthwhile.


As far as the game's difficulty balance is concerned... that is part of what I was referring to earlier.  I have a few ideas on how to tweak things to prevent the balance from falling apart, and I might end up trying to implement them at some point in the future.  This wouldn't be anything drastic like some other projects have tried to do, just adjusting anything that is too overpowered in order to restore a fair challenge to places where it is lacking.  I agree with Chicken Knife that the cohesion of the story does start to fall in the second half.  It is quite noticeable that 75% of FF6's dialog takes place in the first half of the game, and the remainder is more a series of disconnected vignettes that doesn't have much resemblance to the tightly-focused plot that marked the earlier scenes.  Nonetheless it is still a great story, and of course I'd hardly have spent so much time working on it if I hadn't liked it as much as I did.  ;)
Of course your playthrough would result more in a continuation of the refinement process than actually enjoying it like a player. And that will still happen on the second play, and the third play, etc... I've had players on my relocalizations who have given some feedback here and there, but as the author, I think you see so much more than any other player would. Also, you mentioned that you get a sense of when something sounds off and you kinda know there must be something missed in the translation. That's so true. I've encountered so many lines in the dragon quest games where not only the original localization did it weird, my partner that spearheads the translation did it the same weird way, and I have to stop and say no... we're missing something. Let's go to the native speakers, etc. I'd say 90 percent of the time when I had that feeling there was more to the story. Usually those issues result from Japanese expressions that translate in a literal way where the straight rendering kinda works in English but not really. You have to understand the essence of the expression to be accurate. I say keep trusting your instincts with this stuff. And I don't think any translator is perfect. Tomato, as great as he is, has probably made mistakes like anyone else. It's amazing how many problems non-Japanese speakers like us can actually root out by simply pulling at those loose threads.

The other thing I wanted to say: big yes to you working on a highly conservative set of balancing tweaks. While I don't think the act 2 story issues can be fixed, I definitely think the gamemplay can be reigned in in a highly conservative fashion just by balancing out the power of end game equipment, abilities or tweaking the formulas. I do think character level has far too great of a role in damage output compared to FF5 where the impact of character level was much more muted. However, I'd imagine that would be a very difficult fix compared to tweaking equipment, spells and abilities. I agree that enemies should be left alone and the focus should be on the characters. This should all be an optional patch of course. I'd love to help brainstorm and test these kind of things if you're looking for help. I'd say FF6 is one of the two rpgs that could benefit most from this kind of reigning in--with Chrono Trigger being the other (where you max out everybody's magic defense with no effort at all leaving enemy spells from even Lavos doing 20-30 damage a pop.) And yes, I know there have been hard mode patches with massive overhauls of basically everything, but those drastic measures don't really interest me. I want the same core game but with the egregious problems corrected.

Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: hairy_hen on August 23, 2019, 05:21:31 pm
I've made two more updates as additional minor issues became apparent while playing.  The pointers for a few of Strago's Lore descriptions seemed to have been set incorrectly, causing their text in the menu to appear glitchy.  I also found a problem in the script for the scene where Edgar and Relm first meet.  After he asks how old she is, she is supposed to say, "You're weird.  I'm going on ahead," and then leave.  But since I inadvertently typed this part into the wrong caption, she then incorrectly said another unrelated line after this, causing the flow of the dialog to be a bit messed up.

After figuring out which caption her response was actually meant to be in, I went back and replayed that section again to make sure the dialog happened in the right order, and it did.  So anyone who is currently playing this will need to obtain version 1.2.3 in order to see this conversation happen the way it's supposed to.

I didn't mention this before, but in v1.2 I decided to change Bushido back to SwdTech.  There were two reasons for this: the first is that in real life "Bushido" actually referred to a samurai code of conduct, not to a fighting style; and the second is that the Japanese term for Cyan's techniques is roughly something like "Deathblow Sword".  With only seven letters available in the menu screen, SwdTech is at least somewhat closer to this, if not exact.  When new attacks are learned at level up, I changed the somewhat vague "Mastered a new technique" message to say, "Mastered a new SwordTech!"

Currently I'm almost ready to go to the Enchanted Continent, as the Japanese version names it, although since that's one of the toughest parts of the game I'm not sure if my characters are leveled up enough for it.  I've done little in the way of grinding because I find that kind of tedious, and its end result is almost always to make things too easy, but we'll see.  I'll be on the lookout for anything else that needs fixing, but of course I live in hope that there won't be anything urgent.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: vivify93 on August 26, 2019, 01:11:35 pm
Hey hairy_hen, what other authors' patches did you use in FFVI Retranslated? Your documentation is kind of sparse and doesn't seem to include that. (It's been a while since I've last looked into your readme, so please forgive me if you've updated it with that info by now.)
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: hairy_hen on August 26, 2019, 05:38:23 pm
In a recent update I added a document listing the patches I used and everyone who contributed to them.  I'd neglected to include that information before, so I added it to the download once I realized I hadn't done it.

The included patches are:
1) C.V. Reynolds' bug fix compilation (C-Dude's condensed version)
2) Restored Ability Names (update by Silent Enigma)
3) vivify93's uncensored graphics compilation
4) B-button Dash by Master ZED
5) Blitz screen names by Leet Sketcher
6) Mini-map upgrade by Madsuir
7) Y-equip Relics (update by Subtraction)
8) Gil battle fix by svenge


My somewhat under-leveled party just barely managed to scrape through the Enchanted Continent, so now I'm starting the second half.  Man, the story sure takes a turn for the dismal in this part...
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: Chronosplit on August 26, 2019, 07:45:19 pm
In a recent update I added a document listing the patches I used and everyone who contributed to them.  I'd neglected to include that information before, so I added it to the download once I realized I hadn't done it.

The included patches are:
1) C.V. Reynolds' bug fix compilation (C-Dude's condensed version)
2) Restored Ability Names (update by Silent Enigma)
3) vivify93's uncensored graphics compilation
4) B-button Dash by Master ZED
5) Blitz screen names by Leet Sketcher
6) Mini-map upgrade by Madsuir
7) Y-equip Relics (update by Subtraction)
8) Gil battle fix by svenge
Wow.  That list alone is reason for me to dig into this as soon as possible.  This is exactly what I had in mind for anything I ever wanted to do to FFVI.  It's great how that now, what was 100 patches to be added before starting is now about 5 or 8. :laugh:

Does this mean the uncensored graphics patch works without reverting Petty Sign Fix in C.V. Reynolds' compilation?  I had once made an anti-patch for that, believing that it needed to be reverted before editing pub signs.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: Masaru on August 26, 2019, 09:01:17 pm
In a recent update I added a document listing the patches I used and everyone who contributed to them.  I'd neglected to include that information before, so I added it to the download once I realized I hadn't done it.

The included patches are:
1) C.V. Reynolds' bug fix compilation (C-Dude's condensed version)
2) Restored Ability Names (update by Silent Enigma)
3) vivify93's uncensored graphics compilation
4) B-button Dash by Master ZED
5) Blitz screen names by Leet Sketcher
6) Mini-map upgrade by Madsuir
7) Y-equip Relics (update by Subtraction)
8) Gil battle fix by svenge


My somewhat under-leveled party just barely managed to scrape through the Enchanted Continent, so now I'm starting the second half.  Man, the story sure takes a turn for the dismal in this part...
Is there a patch that removes the mini-map upgrade?
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: vivify93 on August 26, 2019, 11:28:13 pm
In a recent update I added a document listing the patches I used and everyone who contributed to them.  I'd neglected to include that information before, so I added it to the download once I realized I hadn't done it.

The included patches are:
1) C.V. Reynolds' bug fix compilation (C-Dude's condensed version)
2) Restored Ability Names (update by Silent Enigma)
3) vivify93's uncensored graphics compilation
4) B-button Dash by Master ZED
5) Blitz screen names by Leet Sketcher
6) Mini-map upgrade by Madsuir
7) Y-equip Relics (update by Subtraction)
8 ) Gil battle fix by svenge
Thanks for letting me know! It looks like we had the exact same philosophy for making an FFVI mod. Good job!

There's actually a utility that will let you fully edit battle system messages, if you want: FF6Tools (I think you may have used it?)

https://www.ff6hacking.com/wiki/doku.php?id=utility

This way, you can edit the gil message yourself, as well as elemental weaknesses, etc.

And there's an addendum fix to B Button Dash (B and C versions) by SilentEnigma. It fixes the "sliding dash" issue. https://www.ff6hacking.com/forums/thread-3140-post-37589.html#pid37589
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: hairy_hen on August 27, 2019, 12:08:06 am
@Chronosplit: The version of the bug fix compilation I used is one that contains only the battle code fixes.  C-Dude was able to extract the portions of the compilation from banks C0 to C3 and leave the rest out, which turned out to be perfect for this project because the full compilation includes some things that were causing the rom to become corrupted after editing in FF3usME, resulting in freezing and/or garbled text.  In addition to solving those problems, C-Dude's condensed patch also eliminated any potential conflicts with the uncensored graphics.  It does mean that some bugs that occur outside of battle will still be present here, but I may look into adding fixes for them in the future if it seems necessary.

@Masaru: Madsiur included anti-patches in his upload for the mini-map hack, so removing it should be a simple matter.  Use the no-header version since this project is made without one.  I've been including checksum repair in my patches, so making changes will cause the rom's checksum to become invalid, but it can be fixed easily using IpsAndSum.

@vivify93: I'll have to check out ff6tools again.  I tried an early version a while ago since I'm on OS X and it was initially made for Macs, but since I was primarily focused on editing the script and FF3usME allows for importing and exporting them as text files, I found it easier to do the writing that way.  I've been running it with a demo version of Windows in a virtual machine and just reinstalling after the trial period runs out; the only thing that was initially tricky was finding the right versions of the .dll files that FF3usME needs to run.  Everything else was done using a hex editor, but of course on anything with pointers you're limited to the space the original file used.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: vivify93 on August 27, 2019, 12:26:13 am
The online version should transcend OS, at least as far as I'm aware. That's what I used to edit the battle system messages, at least.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: Piotyr on August 27, 2019, 12:55:51 pm
As far as sword tech goes have you thought of just Deathblow? Just a suggestion for an alternative both work.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: hairy_hen on August 27, 2019, 06:47:49 pm
I did think about ways to shorten it, but with a seven letter limit in the menu it seemed like anything I could come up with would just result in awkward abbreviations.  “Deathblow Sword” is only a rough translation anyway, not really an exact one, so I’m not sure if it would be better even if it did fit.  Japanese stuff can string words together convincingly in ways that English can’t really emulate, so there’s inevitably going to be some level of weirdness about trying to render it more exactly.

You’d also have to do something with Blitzes, too; the original name for them is roughly something like “Certain Kill Technique”, which is also not the easiest idea to convey in so little space.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: mkwong98 on August 27, 2019, 11:20:37 pm
“Certain Kill Technique” is just a generic Japanese term commonly used to represent special moves and the original name for SwordTech is “Certain Kill Technique” with "Technique” replaced with "Sword". So the "Certain Kill" part of the name is generic and doesn't have to be translated literally. Also the "Sword" part of the name is referring to an attack with a sword instead of the sword itself so you can replace it with "Slice", "Cut", "Slash" etc.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: Spooniest on August 28, 2019, 12:39:30 am
I'm aware that Final Fantasy Tactics: War of the Lions already used "Iaido" as a sort of spellcasting that may or may not break the katana in question (it was translated rather sloppily as "Draw Out" in the original text for PS1), but "Iaido" is to Samurai what the "Quick Draw" is to an Old West Gunslinger.

"Iaijitsu" is the skill of drawing out a sword, killing someone, and putting it back. "Iaido" is literally "The Way of Drawing a Sword Quick."

Seems to fit, for me, and in fact that's what it's called in Stand Guard.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: Heaven Piercing Man on August 28, 2019, 05:39:47 pm
Kenjutsu? Kendo?
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: mkwong98 on August 30, 2019, 04:07:08 am
If you use the pronunciation of other Japanese terms as the translation of this Japanese term, why not just use the pronunciation of this Japanese term? ::)
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: Spooniest on August 30, 2019, 08:59:59 am
If you use the pronunciation of other Japanese terms as the translation of this Japanese term, why not just use the pronunciation of this Japanese term? ::)

Because "Iaido" is only 5 letters :)
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: PowerPanda on August 30, 2019, 09:36:25 am
@Masaru: Madsiur included anti-patches in his upload for the mini-map hack, so removing it should be a simple matter.  Use the no-header version since this project is made without one.  I've been including checksum repair in my patches, so making changes will cause the rom's checksum to become invalid, but it can be fixed easily using IpsAndSum.

Be careful with this. The compression for the minimaps uses some sort of sorcery, and none of the available tools can re-compress the minimaps effectively enough to fit in their original spot. If you are planning to do ANY sort of editing of locations, Madsiur's patch is pretty much required.

Also, it's way better. :)
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: Spooniest on August 31, 2019, 01:22:34 am
Streaming live at Twitch backslash Nandemoyasan.

Mature (lol) audiences only, because I drinksmokeswear.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: hairy_hen on August 31, 2019, 04:28:08 pm
Made another update to correct some more things I found while playing.  The first was the "incoherent Gungho dialog", in which Gungho addresses Strago as if he's there even if he isn't in your party.  Apparently someone made a bug fix for this, thinking the game incorrectly called the wrong dialog captions, but it turns out this is not the case: it was actually just a series of mistranslations that caused Gungho's lines to be written incorrectly.

The Japanese lines don't have a subject, and can therefore use the same captions regardless of whether Strago is in the party or not, but the SNES version incorrectly added the subject "you", creating an error where there wasn't one originally.  (This shows once again the perils of having to translate without context.)  I also updated the surrounding dialog to more closely reflect the tone of the original: Gungho comes across as being more of an aggressive jerk, and Strago is more awkward and embarrassed about never finding Hidon.

The other fix was to Shadow's dialog when he rejoins you in the second half.  The SNES version makes it sound like he's going to stay at the colosseum, even though he doesn't do that; but really he's agreeing to join so that he can do more fighting.  Later on I'll go over the script again to see if there are any other mistranslations that haven't been corrected yet, though if there are I expect they're mostly hiding away in lines that are rarely seen while playing.


I caught the tail end of Spooniest's live stream.  It's a bit surreal seeing my writing on someone else's screen, but I was glad to see he was having a good time with it.  I also liked seeing it played with scanlines.  I've been playing everything on a real console via an SD2SNES, and have two CRT's (one of which I rescued from being sent to the landfill a few months ago) in addition to a Framemeister.  I never liked the harsh pixelated look of the raw output, and certainly no one ever saw the games look like that back then, so it's been great to be able to play with the analog goodness intact.  A well-programmed CRT shader does wonders for the look of the games if emulating, too.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: Spooniest on September 01, 2019, 11:00:33 am
A well-programmed CRT shader does wonders for the look of the games if emulating, too.

I'm only actually using the shader "tv_out_tweaks" for a bit more natural of a color profile, and a bit of bilinear filtering to soften the edges of stuff.

For the scanlines, to be absolutely specific, I am setting my GPU to 2x the native resolution of the SNES (256x240, or when doubled, 512x480), and letting RetroArch (running the core bsnes mercury [balanced]) chop off 16 pixels on the top and bottom, resulting in the resolution of 512x448. After that, it's just the Onscreen Overlay's "Scanlines" setting, which is under "Wii" in the Overlays folder.

Then, in OBS (for streaming), I'm telling it to render at 854x480 canvas resolution, to make it a widescreen aspect, which people on phones/modern TVs can see properly. And yeah it took about six years of toying with stuff before I got all this down. Now, if only I could get a job doing it...heh.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: Spooniest on September 13, 2019, 04:59:51 am
Auzer's line in the WoR Jidoor event has Relm's name too close to the edge of the text box.

It's showing up as:

"That's when I heard about Relm
's magical ability"

Or some such. I'd reformat that.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: hairy_hen on September 13, 2019, 04:04:05 pm
I've run into that problem a couple times before.  It seems to only happen when a player character's name runs right up against the edge of the text box: for some reason the punctuation after their name isn't treated as being part of the same word, so the line break happens in the wrong place.  I'm not sure if it's an error in the game's text-wrapping function, or if it's getting confused by the reduction in the width of the font, or something else.  In the latest update I reworded that line so that the error no longer happens.


So I finished my playthrough the other day... still taking a little time for it to sink in, I guess.  After having worked on it for so long, it seems a little strange for it to be 'over'.  There's still some things left to do; I spotted a few more lines that could stand to be reworded or reformatted, and I still need to finish making notes for the annotated script.  I've already fixed some more mistranslations, most of which were hiding in the alternate ending dialog that happens if you defeat Kefka without getting all your characters back together, and I'll be checking again to try to find any others I don't yet know about.  So there will be at least one more update in the near future, and then later I can possibly look into making a version with alternate character names or whatever else along those lines.

Since this was only the second time I've played FF6 all the way through, in an odd way it was at once both familiar and unfamiliar.  Some general thoughts:

- The game definitely deserves the praise it gets.  From the great story to the engaging gameplay and fantastic music, the level of creativity on display here is very impressive.  It's easy to see why it's as popular and enduring as it is.

- The story is more engaging when the dialog is accurately translated.  I felt more connection to the characters and their situation when I knew what they were really meant to be saying.  With the confusing and inaccurate lines eliminated and replaced with correct information, it was much easier to understand what was happening, both in the larger details of the plot and in the subtleties of how the characters speak to each other, and how this matches up seamlessly with their onscreen animations.

- Despite the numerous and sometimes severe translation errors of the SNES version, some of the writing from that version did actually help make things better, so I was glad to be able to keep some of its ideas when they didn't have negative effects on anything else that was happening. 

- The story does become less immersive in the second half, due to there being little plot to speak of beyond finding everyone.  It's a bit harder to stay interested in what's happening at that point, and the sheer length of it can be almost fatiguing at times, but finally being able to pulverize Kefka's sorry behind makes it all worth it in the end.

- The difficulty curve could stand to be rebalanced a bit, in order to tone down overpowered abilities and equipment combinations.  I made it more challenging for myself by staying at a lower level throughout, and deliberately avoided using things like Ultima as much as I could, but it would be better if you didn't have to go out of your way to do that.

- The visual style of FF6 really benefits from something that can at least approximate the CRT look.  Rough pixelated edges do the graphics no favors, but seeing them the way the game designers did at the time makes it clear what they were going for.

- It's hard to imagine how there could ever be a sequel.  With magic ceasing to exist completely, and the world still being in a mostly-ruined state at the end, I don't know what else there would be that could sustain a whole game's worth of plot.  Almost certainly for the best to simply leave it there and not try to revisit it.  That said, I do wish the ending cutscenes had given some idea what the characters were going to do with themselves afterwards, as FF4 and FF5 did.  The scenes of them escaping from the collapsing tower were cute, but this probably would have been a bit more satisfying.  Ah well.


So... yeah.  Those are my somewhat disordered thoughts after completing it.  A somewhat imperfect, but nonetheless extraordinary game, lots of fun to play, and a real pleasure for me to work on.  For anyone who plays this version, I hope you'll have as good as time with it as I did.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: Spooniest on September 13, 2019, 06:04:59 pm
I've run into that problem a couple times before.  It seems to only happen when a player character's name runs right up against the edge of the text box: for some reason the punctuation after their name isn't treated as being part of the same word, so the line break happens in the wrong place.

It's probably something to do with the fact that the character name being called is code, rather than simple text, as the game understands it. Its formatting rules are probably different than normal text, because you can name a character WWWWWW if you want to (you lunatic).

Thus, the text for a character name that is alterable and must be called by a code ("A0," "A12," etc.) doesn't have the same rules for being attached to the text that is right next to it (as " 's " is, to show ownership by the character, in this case Relm) as normal text would. They never know how long it's going to be, so the rules for text formatting must be different.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: hairy_hen on September 16, 2019, 01:45:57 am
I think you're right; that's the most likely explanation.  I actually used 'WWWWWW' a number of times while setting the formatting of the battle dialog, since that doesn't have a text-wrapping function at all, so it helped to show the maximum length any given line containing character names could be.

There is at least one remaining mistranslation that I haven't corrected yet.  After you get Cyan back in the second half and talk to Lola, one of the npc's in Maranda will apparently say, "Could that have been you, Cyan?  You look so confused, maybe you'd better go home."  I know this is wrong because it makes no sense; not only does it not seem to fit into the context of anything that's happening, it's quite unclear what is being referred to, and it's not even clear whether the npc is speaking or if this is supposed to be Celes or someone else responding.  There are a great number of other vague and weird lines like this scattered throughout the SNES version, and every one of them turned out to be mistranslated, so I'm positive that's what happened here too.

Unfortunately, Mato doesn't seem to have this line in his videos, and Kwhazit doesn't cover it either, so I haven't been able to correct it so far.  I'll have to find it in the Japanese version of the game and get someone who knows Japanese to look at it.  I had assumed it was one of the many unused lines of dialog found in the script, but I encountered it in my playthrough this time, so I'm not content to leave it as it is.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: mkwong98 on September 16, 2019, 01:52:32 am
- It's hard to imagine how there could ever be a sequel.  With magic ceasing to exist completely, and the world still being in a mostly-ruined state at the end, I don't know what else there would be that could sustain a whole game's worth of plot.  Almost certainly for the best to simply leave it there and not try to revisit it.  That said, I do wish the ending cutscenes had given some idea what the characters were going to do with themselves afterwards, as FF4 and FF5 did.  The scenes of them escaping from the collapsing tower were cute, but this probably would have been a bit more satisfying.  Ah well.

A prequel which takes place during the war 1000 year ago would be easy. A sequel is possible too, as we only see three gods who made a mess with the Earth, who knows how many others are out there. Just need to say the power of those three shielded the Earth from the others and now Earth is open to new comers to take over and we can build up a story that permanently resolve this problem.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: Spooniest on September 16, 2019, 08:30:24 am
A prequel which takes place during the war 1000 year ago would be easy. A sequel is possible too, as we only see three gods who made a mess with the Earth, who knows how many others are out there. Just need to say the power of those three shielded the Earth from the others and now Earth is open to new comers to take over and we can build up a story that permanently resolve this problem.

I don't see why upping the scale of threat would necessarily be the only way to go about making a sequel to the first game. Simply saying "There's more magic gods" is only one way to 'talk magic back to life' as it were. It's literally magic, there's all kinds of excuses that could be thrown at it, good and bad.

The Phoenix Esper revives itself 500 days later, and then revives the rest of the Espers out of despair, let's say. Or Terra, Strago and Relm find some kind of ancient artifact that, when they're exposed to it, revives their magical power. Terra's human form starts dying early and Setzer pays for Celes to do a bunch of research on ways to 'cure' her, but they end up reviving magic and have a new problem of some kind.

See what I'm saying? This (FF6) is a universe heavy on lore, there's ways you can stretch and pull it that won't cause it to lose its shape too badly.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: Omnislash on September 16, 2019, 12:14:10 pm
Hello Hairy_Hen. I'm glad i found your hack. I played the original and Rodimus Primal's awesome patch a bunch of times. And this time, i was looking to experience a more accurate/closer to the japanese version. Your use of the Legends of Localization work can only mean greatness. I was going to play the Relocalization project, but your version seems to be better at the accuracy goal.

How ready is the current version? Is it "done" besides very minor things? Can i play it without thinking "maybe i should wait a little more"?

About Cyan. He's my favorite character in the game, i like your approach to his dialogue. Is this hack using the change that makes his SwdTech/Bushido faster? If not, can that be installed without problems? That change really makes him more usable.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: Tomato on September 16, 2019, 02:05:39 pm
There is at least one remaining mistranslation that I haven't corrected yet.  After you get Cyan back in the second half and talk to Lola, one of the npc's in Maranda will apparently say, "Could that have been you, Cyan?  You look so confused, maybe you'd better go home."  I know this is wrong because it makes no sense; not only does it not seem to fit into the context of anything that's happening, it's quite unclear what is being referred to, and it's not even clear whether the npc is speaking or if this is supposed to be Celes or someone else responding.  There are a great number of other vague and weird lines like this scattered throughout the SNES version, and every one of them turned out to be mistranslated, so I'm positive that's what happened here too.

I'm in a rush but in Japanese it's roughly something like:
"Cyan... was it? You have a look of doubt/confusion/uncertainty on your face. At times like that, maybe returning to your home/homeland/home town can help?"
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: hairy_hen on September 16, 2019, 07:44:49 pm
Hey, thanks!  That really clarifies things a lot.   :)

It's actually rather interesting that this seemingly throwaway line quite handily exemplifies the issues with the SNES translation as a whole.  At first glance the two appear superficially similar, but we can quickly see that the SNES version is missing some of the information that gives context to who is talking and what they're referring to.  And the remainder that is present is strung together in a way that is vague and misdirects the focus into another direction.  There's even a story/gameplay hint in there that got blurred over and obscured.

Taken individually they might seem minor, but ultimately it was the sheer proliferation of incoherent lines like this, and the amount of information that had gone missing as a result, that caused me to start working on this project in the first place.  I'm glad that this line turned out to be such a good example of what I've been talking about.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: CoolCatBomberMan on September 17, 2019, 01:13:56 am
Hooray for Mato!  :beer:
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: Spooniest on September 18, 2019, 02:52:42 am
I don't seem to be able to encounter Doom Gaze at all.

EDIT: Ok, it seems to have been a peculiarity of how the core I was using to run the game (bsnes_mercury_balanced) was executing the code. Running the game in Snes9x, I was able to find and defeat Doom Gaze.

A couple more notes I'll add...

There is an ellipse being followed without a space by a timedelay code in the Dream Oath Opera somewhere. You have to put a space after ellipses before you put a timedelay code, or the ellipse won't print all the way out onscreen before the timedelay has expired.

Cyan's response to General Leo from the Imperial Banquet has a similar problem.

And finally, the battle message "Death's aura is shaking" is no longer the correct name for Fiend God.

Demon God: Red winged guy with spear
Fiend God: Black skinned guy stuck in a mountain with bat wings
Goddess: It's a lady almost wearing a few sashes

"Fiend God," when you fight it, and it gets near death, will start flashing and then a message pops up. It still reads "Death's Aura is shaking," despite the monster in question being renamed "Fiend God."
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: hairy_hen on September 19, 2019, 09:02:05 am
I noticed that one while playing too.  Evidently I had neglected to update this line after having renamed the enemies.  In the next version it will read as, "Fiend's aura shakes violently!"  I'll take a look at the ellipses as well.

How ready is the current version? Is it "done" besides very minor things? Can i play it without thinking "maybe i should wait a little more"?

About Cyan. He's my favorite character in the game, i like your approach to his dialogue. Is this hack using the change that makes his SwdTech/Bushido faster? If not, can that be installed without problems? That change really makes him more usable.

I almost missed seeing this, probably because posts from new users don't show up until they've been approved by a moderator (this whole thread took a while to appear back when I started it, since I was new then).  I'm planning to make an update to the project in the next couple days, but at this point the bulk of the work is done and I'm only fixing small textual issues.

I'm glad to hear you like how I wrote Cyan.  I couldn't tell you how much time I spent going through archaic writing to try to make him sound authentic.  Writing in that style is difficult even when you know how the grammar works; I can spot errors a mile away, but really making it sound like it's of that time takes work.  His sword techniques charge up at their default speed in this version, but their timing can be modified without conflicting.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: Omnislash on September 19, 2019, 12:13:11 pm
I noticed that one while playing too.  Evidently I had neglected to update this line after having renamed the enemies.  In the next version it will read as, "Fiend's aura shakes violently!"  I'll take a look at the ellipses as well.

I almost missed seeing this, probably because posts from new users don't show up until they've been approved by a moderator (this whole thread took a while to appear back when I started it, since I was new then).  I'm planning to make an update to the project in the next couple days, but at this point the bulk of the work is done and I'm only fixing small textual issues.

I'm glad to hear you like how I wrote Cyan.  I couldn't tell you how much time I spent going through archaic writing to try to make him sound authentic.  Writing in that style is difficult even when you know how the grammar works; I can spot errors a mile away, but really making it sound like it's of that time takes work.  His sword techniques charge up at their default speed in this version, but their timing can be modified without conflicting.

Do you know if this (https://www.romhacking.net/reviews/1292/) SwdTech speed hack would work without problems?

Also, i noticed a problem that also happens in the Relocalization Project so it might something with some hack in common. In the battle against Vargas, i couldn't get the dialog about how to do the Blitz to show up. It's supposed to happen after Vargas hits a certain HP number, not hard to do, but it didn't for me even attacking him normally non stop until the timer runs out.

Besides that i had a couple question about the text. Why did you keep "SwdTech" and Terra as a "Sorceress"? Aren't those wrong? And do you plan on releasing a version of the patch without the Woolsey stuff in Kekfa's dialogue? It isn't my thing exactly, i kinda like Woolsey Kefka, but that might be a thing who bothers a lot of people who want a faithful translation like this.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: Heaven Piercing Man on September 19, 2019, 10:24:01 pm
The thing is that a de-Woolseyified Kefka would be just a guy saying villain stuff. What makes Kefka, well, Kefka, is that his insanity is reflected in his speech. Japanese does that by mixing different politeness levels and weird wording using the tools of the language itself. English has no such things, so it's a rare case where punching up the dialogue is necessary, to the point even the Japanese realized it was a better way of writing him - his original incarnation was not notable for the Japanese fandom.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: Spooniest on September 20, 2019, 01:54:42 am
Besides that i had a couple question about the text. Why did you keep "SwdTech"

This was discussed earlier in the thread, just for the sake of information...There has been some discussion about it.

and Terra as a "Sorceress"? Aren't those wrong?

"SwdTech" is not technically wrong, it's just clumsy. "Sorceress" is actually a change. Woolsey accidentally called her a "Sorceror."

Sorceress = Feminine.
Sorceror = Masculine.

Some words in English are gendered, if they are referring to gendered beings. Particularly the names of professions and practitioners of arts, as in this case, sorcery.

And do you plan on releasing a version of the patch without the Woolsey stuff in Kekfa's dialogue? It isn't my thing exactly, i kinda like Woolsey Kefka, but that might be a thing who bothers a lot of people who want a faithful translation like this.

Heaven Piercing Man nailed it. Kefka could never sound as "unhinged" in English through mere text, the way he does in Japanese. For that part of his character to come through in English takes a bit more flamboyance. English can be kind of a colorless language when it comes to written words, but waaaay more dramatic when it's spoken aloud. Japanese is kind of the opposite; the drama is inherrent in the text itself, and delivery is more or less standard no matter what, except in extreme cases, if I am understanding what little I know correctly.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: Omnislash on September 20, 2019, 02:06:52 pm
This was discussed earlier in the thread, just for the sake of information...There has been some discussion about it.

"SwdTech" is not technically wrong, it's just clumsy. "Sorceress" is actually a change. Woolsey accidentally called her a "Sorceror."

Sorceress = Feminine.
Sorceror = Masculine.

Some words in English are gendered, if they are referring to gendered beings. Particularly the names of professions and practitioners of arts, as in this case, sorcery.

Oh, i know the word Sorceress. What i meant is, isn't her job class supposed to be something like Magic Knight, Magitek Knight, Magitek Elite?

And i agree with you guys about Kekfa. I like Woolsey's Kefka, i just feel that a lot of people that are into accurate translations hate anything Woolsey.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: KingMike on September 20, 2019, 02:27:00 pm
I'd have considered Sorcerer/Sorceress close enough if space limits had been an issue.

I believe she was once also called a Witch, which is probably also close enough to get the idea. (I know Warlock is the male term for that, but I don't think it is quite as widespread in usage.)
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: hairy_hen on September 20, 2019, 10:10:33 pm
The word 'Magitek', or anything resembling it, doesn't actually exist in the Japanese version, so any use of it is technically a deviation from the original writing, but that depends on what your goals are in translating.  I ended up removing most instances of 'Magitek' from the script; there are still a few remaining, but I decided that it should only appear in the specific context of magic and technology being combined.  So the only times you'll ever see it here is when referring to the lab where they give people magic powers, and the armor used by Imperial soldiers.

The Japanese script has two general terms for magic: 'maho' tends to be used to refer to magic as a general force, and 'mado' seems to refer to it as a skill that people can use.  The distinction between them is a bit vague, can vary between authors and works, and may not always be consistently applied in every case.  Generally I tended to write the former as 'magic' and the latter as either 'magic power' or 'sorcery'.  I wasn't altogether strict about this, though, since my primary concern was to make sure the writing sounded good in English, so the usage was determined to some extent by what worked within a given sentence.

People with powers are referred to in Japanese with terms that mean 'a person who uses mado'.  Terra has no special title that I'm aware of; and Celes is never referred to as a "Magitek Knight" or anything like it (since that doesn't exist in the original script), but rather as a battle sorceress or words to that effect.  I ended up calling Celes a 'mage warrior' in her introduction.

I've talked at some length about Kefka earlier in the thread, so I won't repeat all of what I wrote before, but translating him directly doesn't always work all that well since his style relies upon grammatical and cultural contructs that have no direct equivalents in English.  He'll say rude things in an overly polite and reverential way one minute, say ordinary things in an extremely arrogant way the next, go on a murder spree while giggling like a little boy having fun with toys, and generally act like a freak by thwarting the expectations of how someone should express themselves.  Inflating the craziness of his speech seems to have been Woolsey's way of portraying what would have been dulled down in a more literal translation, and in this case it seemed to me that conveying the feeling behind the words was more important than the actual words themselves.
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: screamingtrees on October 23, 2019, 03:23:35 pm
Shadow's dialog when you first meet him (which is before you name him) calls him Kupop instead of possibly ???. Also another user in RHDNbot thread for this release said there's an inconsistency with the brave ring being called the hero ring in the auctioneer's dialog.  Thanks for the hard work!
Title: Re: Final Fantasy VI: Retranslated
Post by: Heaven Piercing Man on October 25, 2019, 04:51:44 pm
That's probably because the name label code <SHADOW> was inserted before his line, which shouldn't have a name label at all. The moogles use the slots for other characters not named yet.